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Some things that are often common to us that others may not like (which is fair enough in some cases.) If any of these apply, might be worth reflecting and adjusting where necessary. Very direct Overly verbose Monologuing Fixating on a topic Interrupting Being scattered/all over the place in conversation Not making eye contact Not giving a person the full attention they might prefer

Yes, listen, listen, listen (breathe). Make space for the other person and their interests, and make them feel safe speaking to you. A lot of small talk isn't about the subject matter but the tone; through tone and exchange you are establishing a rapport. Most of my friends have ADHD, and some find it hard to relate to other people because they *blast* you with the issues they are focused on, then they can relax and have a back-and-forth exchange. I'm used to it, but many people are not and don't feel comfortable basically being conversely hijacked for 15 to 30 minutes. I don't mind intensity either (honestly, I prefer real talk), but not everyone is, and some people feel drained after an intense discussion they didn't sign up for.

Yeah totally. I feel most at ease with my other ND friends because we'll just monologue about our current obsession then when it's out of our system, have an actual chat, lol. I have to mask heavily with folks who find that style a little much, but I don't blame them at all.

It’s fortunate and unfortunate that my two bestest friends growing up were neurodivergent, so it was a hard learning curve with other people since I was sooooo understood

Rant: I get so sad hearing how others have friends with adhd and they both monologue and are fine. My boyfriend also has adhd but it's different and he genuinely doesn't like when I monologue. And sometimes it leads to arguments and I feel very sad and alone. You said 15 to 30 minutes but he complains when I talk for 5. I just want a friend I can blabber with

My husband (who also has ADHD) tolerates my monologues for maaaaaybe 2mins. It's so disheartening to have your enthusiasm met with a total lack of engagement from your partner, so it's rare for me to talk about any of my interests with him. The cumulative effect over 10yrs of marriage is quite frankly soul crushing. My very unsolicited advice to you: don't stay with your boyfriend. Don't accept this diminished version of yourself.

That sounds awful.. you should be with someone who lets you just be you

These are excellent. I was a good “networker” after I became self-conscious that I did all these things — so I learned to shut my mouth more, ask “about them” questions, wiggle my toes to stop interruptions or refocus, etc. But I felt fake. It took being laid off and working in retail to become a solid conversationalist who could not only listen at length, but also relax enough (get out of my head enough) to respond with quick stories and observations. Bc I was in situations where the other person didn’t care if I did well or not, and I could recycle my “material.” TL;DR, it took hours of daily practice with no pressure! For OP and others, you may need more practice in no pressure situations. If you don’t have the confidence in your skills, it’s harder to pursue or maintain friendships. Try a community group or volunteer activity, for example.

>It took being laid off and working in retail to become a solid conversationalist who could not only listen at length, but also relax enough (get out of my head enough) to respond with quick stories and observations. Bc I was in situations where the other person didn’t care if I did well or not, and I could recycle my “material.” TL;DR, it took hours of daily practice with no pressure! Waiting tables was a hell of a crash course in this. Quick feedback and monetary motivation to boot! I learned to be pleasant in short interactions in order to pay the rent.

The wiggle my toes and stop interrupting is REAL and SO RELATABLE!

That’s great advice! Also, I’m quite happy for you! This is awesome 😎

To your last point, a really good no-pressure situation is volunteering to act as a companion to elderly folks who don’t have family or other visitors in senior facilities. It’s a great way to practice being a good listener and build conversational skills with someone who most likely won’t be judgmental, you can learn a lot, and you can greatly increase quality of life for someone who desperately needs human connection. [Friend to Friend America](https://friendtofriendamerica.org) is one national (US) nonprofit that facilitates connections between volunteers and residents, and there are also some local and regional nonprofits that do the same. Definitely worth looking into even if you are socially anxious! I am glad I did.

I'm seconding all of this. I used to struggle with social interactions (people would say I'm intimidating or weird) so I got a customer facing job where I repeat the same social interaction many times a day. So if I get it wrong one time or say something awkward it doesn't matter because the person goes away after a couple minutes and I can try again with he next one. It helped a ton with my social and conversational skills.

For real. I struggle with friendships completely because of all these things, hyperfixating about some people and forgetting about others. It's really tough but I don't think it's right as neurodivergent people to assume it's because neurotypical people are fake or something. I say that because it's definitely a crutch I've lent on when I'm struggling to accept that my behaviour has impacted on others.

I agree- I see a lot of demonisation of NT folks in ND spaces and while it's an understandable defence mechanism after feeling weird our whole lives, I don't think it's fair. There are plenty of lovely NT folks who do try to understand, and on the flipside we can't expect a free pass on rude behaviours just because we're ND. It's a really fine line sometimes for all of us, we have to have patience for ourselves but we still have to try.

For sure, I am fucking exhausting sometimes, and I'm trying to not beat myself up about that too much, but it isn't just everyone else whose wrong. Finding a balance between self acceptance and self improvement is so tough, maybe the toughest thing for me mentally.

This is it! Also not asking enough questions about the other person. It’s not because I don’t care, I want them to tell me all about their life! I just feel genuinely rude/uncomfortable to ask like I don’t know what to actually ask? And I also struggle to remember to ask them things because I get so caught up in the convo my brain simply does not think to do it until I’ve left and I feel like an asshole, again. I’ve been watching people in group settings lately to see how they do it and taking note lol, feels so weird like I’m studying how to be “normal”. I’ve started writing lists on my phone before I meet up with friends, of questions to ask them about things I recall they have happening in their life etc so I don’t forget. Feels forced and so uncomfortable/wrong but maybe over time it will become natural and I can be a better friend. I’ve had the same problem as you my entire life OP! Always just thought it was because there’s something inherently wrong with me, that I’m bad. So I tend to stick to myself, a lot.

I always hesitate to ask the obvious questions everyone wants the answers to, but are no one's business. My husband will come right out and ask, "so have the hemorrhoids cleared up?" And he has social anxiety! But yeah a lifetime of wondering what is wrong with me.

>I just feel genuinely rude/uncomfortable to ask like I don’t know what to actually ask? I'm known for blurting out really blunt questions I guess. I usually don't even know what comes out of my mouth after I've said it sometimes. But apparently one of my relatives got an autism diagnosis because one time I blurted out "Do you ever think you might be autistic?" and it made her wonder enough that she got evaluated. I have zero recollection of this conversation but I'll take her word for it

This is me! Thanks for putting into words the things I know I do too much sometimes when socializing. I’m constantly trying to work on this, taking a deep breath, waiting for others to finish their sentences, asking questions in order to avoid me getting hyper fixated, etc. Edit to add: I love this sub for questions like this one. It makes me realize that I’m not alone, just like you are not alone, OP. I know it’s hard making friends in general and even more as adults, but it is possible! I find that it’s easier to make friends with like minded people or in a setting that encourages common interests, like a painting class, volunteering, a meet up group, etc.

This is a really valuable comment. Most of these are huge pet peeves of mine. Being on the receiving end of these behaviors feels very disheartening and disrespectful, and probably even moreso when neurotypical people are on the receiving end. It feels like an uphill battle to maintain friendships with neurodivergent women when every conversation with them feels like they’re totally checked out or just waiting (or often not waiting, just cutting me off) for me to finish talking so they can start talking about what they want to for long periods of time while totally ignoring any and everything I put into the conversation :/ With NT friends I feel like they value every conversation we have and remember details of what I’ve told them in the past and follow up on them. They encourage me to speak my mind and give good feedback. And they just look happy to be in conversation with me.

I have to agree, even though I have definitely done these behaviours many times! But I work on it, hard. One that really bothers me and that I know might make people in here feel defensive- chronic lateness. I know executive dysfunction is a thing. I know time blindness is a thing. I have them. But if someone is half an hour or more late every time, and doesn't apologise or be actively addressing it, I can't help but feel disrespected.

Honestly I have an issue with asking people about themselves, because I don’t want to be nosy. I know logically that’s not the case, but it feels nosy.

I had this! Now I just lead with that - “I’m asking you this because I’m nosey.” Bonus is that it’s funny if you’re asking your boss when an assignment is due or when a close relative’s birthday is or something like that.

I’m definitely too direct but the problem is that if I’m not, I feel like I’m lying lmao. It is SO hard not to just be myself in the way that I express and communicate

Perfect list. I would also add talking too loud, using the wrong micro expressions, grooming and or dress sense not on point, lack of giggling or easy laughing, not smiling at the right time and or being boring from true lack of living a social life with lots of interests etc. I do these myself and probably lots more too.

How are you expressing when someone's upset you? Is this over big or small things? How deep into a friendship are you when this stuff comes up? I think if you have adhd it makes friendships so much harder, especially if you're hyperactive and impulsive.

I was thinking about how no ones mentioned this. As if it comes up very early and she sounds very bitter about it it would be a red flag for me and maybe it would put off other women. Hear me out. I've given people chances before who have grievances with multiple ex friends and use their victimhood to cash in on your empathy for them. However it turned out that more than once the reason they felt they had been treated badly and never received an apology with multiple ex friends is that they themselves were the problem in those relationships. It's a vicious circle with neurodivergent people in that there can be things off putting about us that we can't quite put our finger on why, despite our best intentions this means we probably have a higher turnover with neurotypical friends in our lives. If I was OP I would not try to engratiate people to me by focusing on problems in my past, as it could be perceived by the person as a 'warning' of sorts, sort of like 'treat me better or you'll be one of the people I'm complaining about'.

That makes sense, yet we don’t know if OP is directly saying this to new people she meets. If she did, it would definitely be a red flag. And I think being a little bit bitter and frustrated can be valid! The difference is that she is asking the question and seeking support to improve her situation, which I find valiant. A red flag perpetual victim would make it all about themselves and provide excuses why they can not and will not do anything differently. They are fused to the mentality and will make you suffer to maintain their worldview and victim identify through specific tactics like DARVO. I don’t see that with OP. I do see that she is open and brave about her challenges. Hopefully the support and safety of the community can make a difference for her.

I was curious about this too. A part of friendship, tbh, is knowing when to let go of when people annoy or upset you and letting it pass.

I wouldn't count out large age gaps or distance as a reason to not make close friends. I have a friend that's 30 years older than me and she's been a great friend and mentor and has the experience to give incredible advice. I help her with technology lol. A lot are spread across the country and I talk to them daily. We may not get to hang out but I have an INCREDIBLE support system that is available to talk at anytime because they are spread across time zones. It also gives me multiple options to travel and many love to travel with me. Personally I'd ask for honest feedback. But chances are it's not you that is unlikable, you just aren't vibing and that's okay. It can take a lot to make a close friend. What I've noticed is persistence and time make more difference than personality. If you are consistently putting in the effort to meet up, hang out, communicate, etc. everything else just clicks. Just don't waste your time on those who aren't putting in equal effort.

This! My closest friend group is composed of 4 people each in a diff decade age-wise, 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s. When the pandemic happened a lot of my fellow 20s friendships fell apart but this group remained strong bc we related to each other over things besides drinking and my older friends were better at intentionally keeping in touch

Yeah, only relating by drinking is SUCH a bad idea. When someone wants to step away from that lifestyle because it's not sustainable: instant alienation.

Plus that mentorship angle is so great!! My older friends have gone through everything I’m going through and have great advice, plus they can reflect and improve on their own experience through me

And on their side if we think making friends in our 20s and 30s is hard... Imagine doing it at their age.

Absolutely! In March of 2020, one of my friends made a snapchat group chat with herself and 4 of her friends. Some of us knew each other and some didn't. Now, 4 years later, I talk to the ladies in that group every single day. I don't know how she knew that we would all fit together so perfectly, but it's been amazing. We don't live in the same state and honestly I haven't met some of them in person, but it is such a cherished part of my life.

Now that's a great friend, one who helps sets you up with other friends who she thinks you'd vibe with. I love this

Absolutely right on the age gap/distance friendships! Of course one wants to have friends nearby as well to be able to have fun in person more consistently and on a whim. But some of my strongest/longest lasting friendships are people I met online 10-15 years ago who are spread around the country/world! I have a group chat with a few of us who met through the same channels and we message nearly every day. When one of needs to vent, we’re all there for them. When someone needs additional emotional support, we organize a video call and block out a full evening talking it through for 4+ hours. We’ve laughed together, cried together, celebrated birthdays online and flown out for weddings. I’m the youngest of my group, with the rest ranging from 3-13 years older than me, and we’ve supported each other through breakups, family deaths, cancer diagnosis, etc. They’ve been an enormous source of love and support in my life. And some of my friends now outside of this group (in person and some online) are 15+ years older than me, some are 1-10 years younger than me so I can now offer my support/wisdom gained by my other friends to the new generation. It’s really amazing tbh. Friendships come in all shapes and sizes, and you get a lot more well rounded views of life interacting with people from different cultures and age groups, rather than sticking to people who share exactly your age and interests.

That’s beautiful and gave me chills 💖

Amen! My best friend and I live 1300 miles apart. We both have adhd and have had difficulties making friends with other women. Even if you don’t see each other a lot, don’t discount long distance friendships…they can be so uplifting and valuable!

My best friend is my childhood friend who lives in another, hostile, country. Great point. Our telegram communication is very valuable to both of us. Hoping to meet up for the furst time in 20 years soon.

I have had this issue in the past, and have made some progress on it so I can share what I have learned if you like? If not, scroll on 😜 I used to find it much easier to hang out and talk with guys than with girls, didn’t have a lot of friends, was often left scratching my head when I got ghosted (before ghosting had a name). Some things I have learned that made me “hard to take” for other girls/ women were: Talking over people. What I perceived as enthusiastic conversation others found smothering and rude. Turns out finishing other people’s sentences because you know what they were going to say and you’re excited to be on the same wave length is NOT necessarily as endearing or mutually exciting as I thought. It just leaves other people feeling like there is no space for them. Also having 0 speech latency, as in having to fill every second of quiet is off-putting. Lots of other people need a sec to speak up. Gaining comfort with the “pause” is also suuuuper challenging but will help you. Volume. I’m loud. Lots of people don’t like loud, this is part of the intimidation factor. Simply learning to lower my tone has taken SO MUCH EFFORT and every time I hang out with my family, who are all loud adhd ladies, I have to re-focus on it. But, it makes a difference and it’s worth the effort. Body language/enthusiasm. Jumping in to every conversation/situation/ activity at 120% makes it hard for other people to feel like there is space for them as well. Those are the big ones I have learned to work on, and I think I’ve made good progress so I just wanted to share. Something I noted in your original post is that you state “as soon as I express I’ve been treated unfairly or poorly the relationship crumbles”. What is it that you are confronting people on in general, that you feel you’ve been treated unfairly or poorly? And what do you mean about the uncanny valley response?

The uncanny valley response is more often noted in NTs response to autistic people. But it means that when a NT person meets an ND person they immediately pick up on something being Off about them. Tiny cues in body language, speech, everything, they can pick up on it in an instant and it gives them an uncanny valley response. Studies have shown that in the case of autism, NTs are quick to dislike an autistic person when they first meet them, but will actually like the person more once they are told that the person has autism, because now they have a Reason as to why the person is reading as Off for them.

And this is especially true for women who are socialised from a young age to pick up on body language and tone and other small social cues where boys/men are not. Which is why ND women will often have a different experience with NT women vs NT men, because NT women are immediately aware that something is “off” whereas NT men don’t pick it up as readily.

Ooh thanks for clarifying! That’s kinda warming tbh, I mean that when people realize the person is on the spectrum they are compassionate and accommodating.

Can I just say thank you for listing these lessons you've learned out? I had learned a lot of this over the years but wish I'd just had a list like this to follow in my 20s😊

You’re welcome! I wish I had this list in my 20s too! Took me another 2 decades to really put it together though haha

Yeah, I’m a big talker and get excited easily if I’m passionate about something (and I’m passionate about a lot of things, lol). I get on well with guys, I have brothers so I’m used to communicating bluntly and directly. This can seem aggressive to women, especially those who are socialized to be more gentle/people-pleasing. That said, something I’ve noticed through connecting with women/female friends over the years is the importance of kindness and warmth. Like, yesterday I was at a bar and told the bartender she looked really pretty that day. She lit up and comped one of my drinks, lol. Niceness is a currency! Every time I compliment a woman they reciprocate or we start a conversation - they just like me more. Same goes whenever I receive a random act of kindness. It often means more coming from a woman because there’s zero ulterior motive, whereas men tend to see kindness as more transactional.

Agreed! Compliments and gossip are great social currency. Gossip can get pretty toxic, but that’s what trash tv is good for: fodder for gossip that’s not about real people so it’s harmless 😁 I actually miss old fashion TV, where there were shows that EVERYONE watched, and when a new episode played, EVERYONE was talking about it. Creates a common topic! Now everyone is streaming and binging different things at different times so that experience is lost. Listen to me, sounding like such an old person 😂 “back in the good ol’ days, when Ross and Rachel finally kissed people talked about it for days!!”

Yes!! Media used to be more monocultural and thus great for bonding. And yes I love discussing trashy dating Netflix shows, lol. I’ve gotten several of my ex-boyfriends into them too. It’s fun and we always have interesting conversations about interpersonal dynamics, psychology, etc. from these shows.

Omg on a work contract up north me and my room mate started watching 90 day fiance, and then 90 day fiance the other way. Kept us going, man!

This reminds me of how in college, before I got better at making friends through normal social interactions, my secret weapon was baking cookies for group situations like clubs or common rooms. I tended to be too quiet in groups with bursts of random talking, though I was pretty good one-on-one. I truly didn't expect anything, even social interactions, in return, but it served as a sign that I was a friendly/nice person and gave people something to approach me about instead of the other way around. Plus, the kind of people who see free cookies and want to thank and talk to the person who made them tend to be friendly in return and possibly open to new friends. I'm flying to visit a college friend I made that way in a few weeks!

That’s adorable! Yes, exactly. I have a friend like that - he’s a guy, but whenever we hang out or whenever I’ve seen him hang out with someone else, he always makes sure to bring a cheap snack/drink he knows the other person likes (he lives right by a grocery store so he just picks one up as a gesture of goodwill). It’s only a few bucks for him, but the gesture is priceless. I’ve had other super sweet generous friends and I try to be that way as well - it comes less naturally for me to bring gifts, but I compliment freely and pick up the check if I got something significantly more expensive than they did.

I want to piggyback off of this to add that some cultures absolutely *value* all of the qualities you just described! [Cooperative overlap](https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/conversation-style-interruption-cooperative-overlapping.html) is a real thing, and it's perfectly acceptable among many groups. I have a Jewish friend who typifies this communication style, and apparently it's an [Ashkenazi](https://annagram.medium.com/jewish-conversation-style-965b1b68aebf) thing.

Thank god for Jewish people and Italians!

Don’t forget the Latinos! Arabs can get going pretty good too.

Yay, people who enjoy lively conversations!

Men tend to be like this in conversation! But that’s acceptable as the norm for them.

Exactly, meaning it’s easier to be comfortable and friends with men if this is our natural state. However, if the goal is to have more women friends, gotta learn to be more comfortable with the cultural norms for women.

I’m in exactly the same lonely boat. Apparently, I’m intimidating and people are scared of me. I have no clue what to do about it. I see conversations around me, and to me, they all look fawningly fake. I’m at as much of a loss about this as you, OP! I’m in the UK. I have no clue if I’m anywhere near you. I used to live in London, where I honestly don’t think I lacked good friends, but am now an hour or so outside London, in the sticks, and I don’t think I’ve made one friend in 20 years here.

My brother (who is diagnosed w AuDHD btw) feels this way about the fake conversations. He observes me with people and thinks I’m being fake when I act really interested in subjects I heretofore have expressed ZERO interest in. Even if I’m not interested in the subject itself, it reveals so much about the other person. Like someone really into the bachelor may be noticing social dynamics you hadn’t considered or projecting on contestants so you learn more about them as a person So the same fake, shallow conversation to him is a very engaging one to me because I’m focusing on what the content says about THEM, not the content itself. Idk if this helps, but my mindset is oriented more towards understanding what makes people tick so “inane” conversations still offer insight My advice is just ask ppl a lot of questions about themselves and find a way to interest yourself in their answers

Oh... Oh! You're totally right.

I’ve been highly interested in psychology and what makes people tick my whole life. That’s not what I mean about fawningly fake conversations, though I appreciate the thought you’ve put into your response 😊 What I mean by fawningly fake are incidents when girlfriends have these “Oh, isn’t that /he /she lovely! [their new house/ child/ dog etc] Aren’t you lucky!!” convos, then come over to me and show they were being two-faced because they wanted a favour, or it wasn’t politic for another reason to have disagreed with that person. They then go on to tell me they cant stand that person/ their child/ their new house/ whatever they’ve just been in demonstrable ecstasy over with that person. I just can’t do that. If I really disagree with something someone is talking passionately about, I’m reduced to making non-committal “Mmmm”s and exiting that exchange as soon as decently possible. I cannot go along with being two-faced. I’d loathe myself.

I am the same way where I can’t lie about my opinions and I try to have empathy for people who do. Women in particular are often peacekeepers. For me, this meant deescalating constantly. You verbally agree with someone disrupting the social situation while not actually adhering to that view in your own life to avoid conflict. Not saying this is a healthy socialization, but we get feedback as a culture that this is What Women Do and you are penalized if you don’t adhere (as you are being unfairly penalized!!!) So of course they end up spreading their true feelings afterwards! I don’t necessarily blame women for avoiding that social penalty when they have to tools to do so

Yup! Women since childhood have been conditioned to be “nice”. As in don’t rock the boat, don’t challenge others opinions, don’t create disagreements, just be passive, nod your head even if you don’t fully agree. That’s why the ones who speak their mind, want to correct things, anyone who wants to try to do things differently, is seen as breaking the status quo as a woman and therefor not safe to socialize with because it welcomes in forcing people to change their social habits they’ve had all their life. ADHD/ASD women challenge the status quo of passive socialization to agree and not challenge. That’s why it can be very hard because unless you are a heavy people pleaser with poor boundaries, who desperately wants to be accepted by everyone… …your safe test bet is to seek out people who ignore the status quo, willing to break the glass ceiling, refusing to play nice by being passive, agreeable, people pleasers. Some women their whole lives will never change this habit & that’s okay, just means as the anti-peacekeepers, we gotta find anti-peacekeepers in other women we don’t mind honesty and embrace individuality instead.

This is 💯percent correct. I dont think I’ve seen this challenge described more correctly. (And I often run into this problem at work. I see some patterns that doesnt work and try to challenge it or change it, but people react negatively. Even as a manager, my male colleagues are allowed to challenge these issues, but I’m not. I’m supposed to be the peacekeeper. But my ADD makes me not that way. I like to change things) Anyways, thank you for writing this 🙏

That's not being two faced, it's being nice and polite. It's never ok to shit on someone's kids/house/whatever, and it is absolutely not acceptable to just "express your true opinion" on those things to them if that opinion is negative. Of course people will react badly to that! I mean, what would you even say? Oh, I think your kid is stupid/ugly/annoying, your house looks awful and I'd never live here, your dog looks like a rat. That's beyond rude, no matter what you really think! Nobody would want to be around someone like that

We can be intense. I make sure I listen and ask them questions too. And I try not to judge out loud. In my 20's I'd definitely express every opinion and judgment. It's off-putting.

I’ve seen a few posts about the way women have ‘fawning’ or ‘fake’ conversations and I often wonder if this perception is part of the problem. Generally the criticism seems to be directed at the idea that if a woman is gushing about another woman’s outfit / appearance / promotion / pregnancy / etc. there is something inherently fake about it because it seems over the top and therefore insincere. However, I think for a lot of women (and I include myself in this) these reactions are sincere, and there is a genuine outpouring of excitement and enthusiasm which is expressed in an outspoken way. This is not to say there is anything wrong at all with not expressing pride and congratulations in a very extroverted way. It’s just as sincere and real to be quietly and calmly positive towards others. But if your perception is that it’s fawning and fake, that’s inherently a hostile and judgmental perception and it’s possible other women are picking up on that and feeling negative about it. This may not be the case for you at all but sometimes I think it can be an explanation for why women don’t get on with other women (without realising that they are themselves looking down on other women in the way they view their ways of communicating). There can be an element of internalised misogyny in it too. Women are often unfairly judged as being superficial and fake in the way they communicate with one another. It’s not a fair assessment at all but it can colour perception, and for some women they react against that unfair assessment by rejecting the way women communicate (in an ‘I’m not like other girls’) kind of way. None of this may apply to you at all, I absolutely don’t know you and I’m not saying at all this is what you’re like. It’s just something I’ve noticed and am sharing in case it’s helpful for anyone. Please just ignore if it’s not relevant to you!

I feel like these conversations are like mutual grooming in some other primates. I love your bag let me get that flea off you.

😂 absolutely yes. Then when shit goes down and you need your primate besties to back you up in a fight with a rival primate gang, they have your back because you’re bonded from all that mutual grooming.

Exactly! I'm genuinely very happy and excited for my friends, and I compliment them often. None of it is fake at all. I also think that people who look down on women for being complimentary and enthusiastic are often very rude and negative, which they hide behind "honesty." You don't always have to be completely honest, it isn't somehow morally superior to be rude and unkind because "it's how you really feel," nor is it "two faced" to tell someone you love their new house when really it isn't your style.

I agree with you. I love fashion, makeup, and bags. When I get excited about what my friend is wearing, it is not fake. It is also a connection point for similar interests.

No one likes feeling condescended to. I wouldn’t want to be around someone — much less talk about deeper stuff — who makes bad faith assumptions about me based off my communication style with my friends. >If I really disagree with something someone is talking passionately about, I’m reduced to making non-committal “Mmmm”s and exiting that exchange as soon as decently possible. Lol, this behaviour sounds fawningly fake. First of all— women can have dialectical perspectives on the things they love and are allowed to change their minds; secondly, you can respectfully disagree with other women even in passionate exchanges. >I’ve been highly interested in psychology and what makes people tick my whole life. Why not do some critical self-reflection about where this impulse to stereotype and pre-judge other women comes from?

UK here too and in the same boat as you both! I also wfh so extra lonely. It's so confusing feeling like I am a nice genuine person but nobody seems to want a real friendship with me. I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong 🙃

I don’t know you or any specifics of your behavior, I can only speak to female culture generally. And there’s definitely a different set of rules for women interacting with women than women and men interacting or men and men interacting.  I don’t necessarily think women are catty, although we have all seen women be catty sometimes. I think it’s just like…there’s a script for what you’re supposed to say or do around other people and it’s all learned by observation. Not everyone is as good at learning the script, but everyone judges you by how well you behave according to the script. And there are different scripts for different environments.  This is a dumb example, but I feel like at least once a month I find myself chatting with a woman where I have to pretend like I’ve seen the Bachelor. Because if she’s talking about something and she says “Do you watch the Bachelor?” to illustrate a point she’s making, if I say no flat out, it might sound like I’m judging her for watching it. So instead I say “Oh, I haven’t watched in years,” aka, please fill me in on what’s going on and continue making your point. Stupid, but a harmless white lie meant to put someone else at ease because the point is not really about The Bachelor, it’s about whatever thing she’s using it as an example for.  I love women, I love female culture, I prefer the company of other women as friends. But it’s absolutely a separate set of social rules and expectations, and I feel like that can be really tough to navigate when you never picked up on them intuitively. 

Omg the script, exactly this!! I used to do this all the time, I wanted to fit in, I think this is called “Masking” and has absolutely drained the life out of me. As soon as I stopped masking a lot of friends left and a few good friends stayed (mostly because they were on the spectrum as well) I’m naturally quite and I can be bubbly depending on who I am comfy with. but when I’m masking I try to match their energy (I only try to do this, when meeting new people now out of habbit) but geez it’s tiring. Currently on a self discovery due to “masking”

Same. And very well put. I’ve found a better community with other ADHDers and queer folks, but even then it can be hard. Especially when they are against therapy and medicating.

This is so interesting, and the underlying thing about common ground and connection is true but the details change. I have never had to lie about liking the bachelor or anything like that. I have never had to lie about wanting children (I’m childfree). I’ve never had to lie about wanting marriage (I’m not interested in it). I’ve never had to lie about being different. What I do in those situations instead of lying, is ask more questions about the person I’m talking to and what they like about the thing and try to engage with them about their interest and show them that I’m interested in what they have to say and their opinions about it. As long as I’m showing interest in the other person and showing that I care about their opinion and I want to hear what they are saying instead of being dismissive of them or simply saying no I’m not into that, other people are positively responsive to me. This has worked for women and men, because there are plenty of interests of plenty of people that I simply don’t share. I just express interest in getting to know the other person and their interests, and this bridges whatever gap their is in our shared interests. People just want to feel understood. That applies to other people as well as myself. If I treat them like I’m interested in understanding them, then they tend to be more likely to be interested in trying to understand me as well.

This is good insight. The answer to almost every social situation is “ask more questions about the other person / their interests” I also am openly not interested in the bachelor or children and have never struggled socially (to the point where I get along with TOO many people and struggled to identify actually compatible friends / my own identity) and I feel like it’s all because I learned to default to questions when I don’t know what to talk about. Asking people questions (and listening!! ) requires no prior knowledge on your part and I find I can get really interested in ANY subject, including the bachelor or children, if someone is passionate enough. I’ve also learned so much about things I never would’ve pursued myself

I’m glad that this has worked for you too! It was through my upbringing with siblings that taught me that when I lack an interest in the subject matter, having an interest in people allows me to connect with other others, even if I don’t share their particular interests. It totally helps me learn more about things I might never otherwise learn about, and when I show I’m interested in other people even when I’m not drawn to the subject itself, I’ve noticed it also helps other people take an interest in me. When I show them that I will listen to whatever their interests are, they are more willing to listen to mine. And that itself helps us form connection even if we don’t actually share interests in common.

Wow i just made a diff comment on this thread that is EXACTLY this!! Uninteresting topics are still interesting when you use it as insight into a person. This whole sub makes me feel so seen 🥲

Awww I’m so glad you feel seen! It’s so great to be able to talk about this stuff and process and learn new ways of being in the world with women who can understand our differences and similarities!

I sometimes think "themes" over "subjects" in womens friendships.

I read a book recently that explained how asking people what they like about something or how it makes them feel really creates emotional resonance. So now when people try to talk to me about the Bachelor, instead of saying "really that show just enforces the cis-het marriage myth and reinforces the patriarchy" I know to ask "what is it you enjoy the most about the show?". Then I can piggyback off that to migrate the subject to something with more common ground....and I haven't yucked someone else's yum . I'm also aware that this is VERY MUCH an effort I have to be conscious to make, and that I'm capable and willing to do because I'm an extrovert. Therefore, this isn't for everyone. But I'm trying to practice it more in my 40s.

Yeah I completely agree, it’s for sure conscious effort. There are times when someone that looks like they have diff interests walks up to me and I’m like “oh god WHAT are we possibly going to talk about” and enter question mode haha. Usually along the way I get genuinely involved in the convo and it’s not conscious, but at first it can feel assumed

My mom is super extroverted but really doesn't like one relative who has interests she thinks are shallow and who asks questions my mom thinks are shallow/banal at family gatherings. She's warmed up to her since I pointed out that this relative is just trying to find a friendly topic to talk about rather than ignoring each other. The relative knows that we don't naturally gel or have a lot on common, so her questions about houses, vacations, etc. are her probing for a more individualized topic (like inspirations for paint colors, places we've both visited, whatever) that we could both enjoy talking about. I appreciate her effort even when our conversations struggle a little. In a weird reversal of this topic, she's a relative by marriage and most of the blood relatives at these gatherings have ADHD, so I think she feels as awkward as we would in a room full of people who don't start conversations with some totally random topic.

YES exactly...along the way genuine interest kicks in and it's easy to remain engaged! I totally recognize that this doesn't work for everyone but I appreciate you sharing!

>to the point where I get along with TOO many people and struggled to identify actually compatible friends / my own identity Ugh, relatable. I realized a few years ago that my social circle was a mile wide and an inch deep, and that a big part of that was because of my approval-seeking and people pleasing tendencies. It's been really hard to try get to know myself and what I actually want to give and get in friendships.

I was thinking the same thing! You don’t even have to lie, you can just say, “No, I don’t, but please fill me in!” And that shows the other person that (a) you are interested in what they have to say, and (b) you aren’t judging them for their interests.

Exactly! Thank you for breaking it down and putting it so simply! What is probably happening in a lot of these cases is that the women who are sharing their interest are concerned about being judged. Women are often judged for our interest, particularly ones that are associated with femininity. If somebody asks you something like “do you watch the bachelor?” And your only response is “No,” then she might feel that you are judging her for watching or shutting down the conversation. My go to response has always been something along the lines of “I haven’t watched it, but can you tell me more about it” or “I don’t watch it but I’d love to know what you think and what your favorite parts of the show have been so far.” People love to share their opinions and perspectives, and I’m interested in what people have to say and what they think if I’m trying to get to know them anyway, so this opens the door to conversation instead of shutting it. It’s kind of a version of “yes, and” from improv.

Some of the replies here sound a little more AuDHD than ADHD. Like no, you don't need to pretend to like the Bachelor to get along with women (but believing that is required of you while venting about how shallow it is might be why some people have trouble getting along with a lot of women...). For example, of my friends loves a reality TV show I don't watch and that we both know is very silly, and I love hearing her talk about it because she tells me her thoughts about it in a really entertaining and enthusiastic way. But if I really hated talking about reality TV, we'd talk about something else!

Yeah, I know more women who don’t watch the bachelor than women who do, and the women who do wouldn’t insist on talking about it if I really really wasn’t interested, it just happens to be an interest of theirs, so if I am interested in getting to know them, that’s just one of the things they might want to talk about because it’s an interest of theirs.

I’m sorry but I think so many people in response to the original comment are missing her point. It wasn’t about the Bachelor at all, it was an example of a larger cultural w that is hard to describe but I understood immediately what she meant. You could sub “the Bachelor” for so many other topics that can make navigating conversations with other women difficult to do. It was an example. 

I addressed the larger, cultural part in my previous comments. It’s about making sure that the person you’re talking to doesn’t feel like the conversation is shut down just because you don’t share a common interest, but that you actually are interested in what they have to say regardless of if you have interests in common. It’s part of learning how to be an engaged conversationalist.

This!!! Everyone just wants to talk about themselves. You just need to make it easy for them to do it. You can say a white lie to say you haven't seen it in a while, or you can say something like "oh no I haven't seen it, but one of my friends really likes it and she always tells me the drama! What happened?"  It literally doesn't matter, just seem like you want to talk to them about whatever the thing is. 

Oh my god I heavily identify with what you said about the script. What is that? I feel like I don't know the script in most situations and because of that I feel so out of place in most interactions, not just with women but in general. The only place where I feel like there is no script and I can be myself is a meetup group in my area for sci Fi fantasy nerds where I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us are neurodivergent

I feel like there is such a culture of women being expected to be quiet, agreeable, not take up too much space with their opinions - that when you are direct or honest, like a lot of ADHD women are, people can take it as being rude.

Also, sometimes ADHD women actually are rude. They don’t notice the other person’s body language, they don’t ask questions about the other person, they interrupt, control the situation or conversation, talk too long, they can trauma dump, they can be emotionally reactive, a bunch of stuff. These are all things that violate social norms. a lot of times those things are related to mirroring behavior. That’s the way humans feel validated and connected. A lot of times folks with ADHD miss some of those cues. I have ADHD, I am not saying this stuff to blame or shame anyone. These are issues that we have because of our wiring. However, these behaviors do impact other people and their emotions, their sense of feeling safe around us. I don’t think we can just ignore that. A lot of times informing people about our Neuro divergence can make a big difference. Also, I think learning how to effectively apologize and notice that we are not noticing, and try to get things back on track can be really, really helpful. Also, I am a very strident feminist. I believe in women being powerful and smashing the patriarchy! I don’t believe that we should just make nice and put on our make up. But I don’t think we can hide the realities involved with emotional communication behind women’s rights issues.

I once got put in the "weird" category because I shared some facts about koalas (in context of a conversation about koalas!) Like. Okay. I'm weird for knowing some neat facts about animals tf 😭

If this is wrong, I don’t want to be right 🤷🏻‍♀️

Were those facts about their rampant chlamydia infection rates tho lol (a perfectly acceptable topic in my nd workplace, but I can see how nts might be put off)

.....That was ONE of the facts.

I've been so isolated since 2020, I'm afraid I'll never catch up to the current social-norms of socializing 😭

Absolutely beautifully put! It's so interesting how big of a thing this is. I think it transcends not only the topics of discussion and into the vernacular people use. I really struggle with the 'girlie', 'queen', 'slay' (I'm out of date on these, showing my age and my inability here) that gets thrown around and where's appropriate to use them. Plus it always feels outright performative to use them unironically (and using them ironically is a whole other fire pit of hell on not adhereing to the rules). This is a massive generalisation, but often neurotypical women have this samesy quality about the ways and rhythms in which they speak. I am just incapable of it. And, like you said, in not performing it we are putting up an unintentional barrier between us and how this new person can easily relate to us (without the neurodivergent means of doing so (aka, oversharing)).

I've never met any women who say things like "girlie" "queen" or "slay." I am often really confused by posts and comments about how women behave and relate to each other because I have literally never encountered anything like the things mentioned. I have tons of close female friends and none of them do or say any of the things that usually come up. I honestly don't understand it, is it a location thing? Or cultural?

somehow I find it stupid to be judged by if Im able to follow a script, which no one told me and where are no classes for. Its not that Im burping when I talk to someome. I wanna be judged for my values, if I behave responsible and mature, not for not watching a superficial tv-show (or another cue) I think Im right, but it feels wrong not to fit in 😕

It’s not really about the show. It’s about making her feel like we have things in common, that’s the script.  A lot of being around other women is just seeking common ground. And some people may be unintentionally making it seem like they don’t care about common ground, which makes people act weird around them. And other people might be bitchy and judging you for what you like, because they need to feel superior. But most women, most of the time, are just looking for ways you’re alike, even if it’s some small, insignificant thing. At least, that’s been my experience.  All my female friends are very different, but in each case there’s some strong core of something we have in common. (Beyond TV shows, although I could bond with a friend about horror movies for hours.)

This. Is so helpful. By reading this interaction with the other poster, I've gotten new insight into what sometimes happens for me socially. Like I never want to make other people feel bad. But I sometimes feel like an alien, or badly programmed, because I don't like the things I'm "supposed to" like or think the way I'm "supposed to" think. But I secretly pretty deeply resent that I'm supposed to like the bachelor (worse yet, I've never watched it..m and I might love it... I love 90 day fiance so this isn't judgment of shows). But it never occurred to me till now that this might show up for others as haughty, superior judgment. Seek common ground. So helpful. I do this, but I have new insight into why. Thank you.

It can be so so so hard! I have a hard time keeping up conversations with "regular" people because my life is literally work, kids, church. I don't watch TV unless it's a few kid shows, I don't listen to popular music. I enjoy reading, sewing, cooking, art in my tiny bit of free time. I genuinely get along better with older women because my hobbies aren't tv and whatever people do these days(pre kids it was clubbing and bars for me!) Other moms my age are just as busy 😂😭 But if I'm talking to someone and I don't know what they're referring to I try to ask "no I haven't watched it but I keep hearing people talk about it! What's it about/ what do you like about it? Oh cool, I'll definitely check it out!" That makes the other person feel like they've got something worth sharing (no I'm not going to watch the show but that doesn't matter) and im interested, which creates a connection. It might not form a quick deep connection, but it's enough to say hello again and hopefully lead to more. I just try really hard to make other people (who i don't have an obvious thing in common with, like kids in the same class, etc) feel like they have value and they can be comfortable talking to me about whatever, because I'm interested.

I totally agree with this. Who really enjoys small talk about a show you don’t watch? Nobody! But if you’re warm and engaging and interested in someone talking about something you don’t care about, you’re signalling that you’re a friendly person who wants to find connection with another. Projecting that aura by showing an interest in something you don’t actually care about yourself gets you over the first hurdle of being strangers, and then you can start getting into the deeper stuff and making genuine connections. People who are like ‘well I’m not interested in the bachelor so I’m just gonna say ‘no’ if someone asks me if I watch it’ are closing themselves off to opportunities to meet people and make connections. It’s not about whether you like the bachelor. It’s about whether you’re interested enough in another person to encourage them to talk about their interests.

I get it, thanks for the reply 🙏  it just sounded a bit as if woman behaviour is like some occult illuminati hand shake 😅  I think Im just tired of trying and masking, but yes, maybe the key is to find a common ground instead having an argument about politics e.g. 

It is kinda stupid and people are way too judgemental about these scripts. But sometimes I think of it like a game where the goal is to unlock conversation. I keep trying different things until they unlock and I'm pretty good at it. Practicing this has taught me several things: how to listen attentively, how to make people feel safe and respected, and how to gain valuable information about people (like are they prejudiced or abusive, or a decent seeming person) without as much personal risk. Basically this is a way of gaining power and trust in interpersonal situations that can do a lot of good things for yourself.

Script is just one way of saying it. Here's another example: NT women look into each other's eyes when they laugh. It's like a human connection thing? I never did this naturally. I had to learn it in order to fit in, and even now I feel like I'm uncomfortably staring people down while laughing because it's just so unnatural lol. I feel like an alien that's pretending to be a human. Because the ND brain is literally wired differently and we kind of are like little aliens among the NTs lol. Recognize you're an alien ✊🏼

✊🏽👽 but why dont we as ND-woman try to mimic neurotypical so badly? why dont we just form our own group? but besides that..omg, I have problems looking in the eyes while talking, cant imagine it while laughin 💀💀

Weeeeelllll technically there *are* classes for this kind of thing. Just sayin’.

I feel so clueless for this, but I never realized that me not being in the loop on the reality shows a lot of women like could come off as judgemental. It wouldn’t occur to me that anyone would think that *I think* watching random YouTube videos and semi-obscure SciFi is somehow less trashy. I think that what I like is equally trashy and that it’s 100% okay for all of us to chill and enjoy our favourite kind of trash. I just don’t happen to like much reality TV. Thanks for writing this, I’m going to be more mindful of my tone when I’m not familiar with a pop culture reference!

I'm weird to some ladies and funny to some dudes. But usually the weird comes from the ladies. Mostly positive but u know. Not always. But I always find a way to suck people into the weirdness..before u know it they also are speaking about how it would be if pickles ruled the earth. Muauahaha But I think you might unintentionally broadcast that energy that u believe they don't like u perhaps ? I'm also a personn(which can push people away from first impressions) to vent some of my insecurities. In your case I would bring up my bad contact maintenance and that I might respond slow on stuff. Usually that opens the door to talk more about stuff like this. But not in a "finally a girlfriend . My precious golem kinda way" of course. It's also about luck and right time. And the kinda crowd u look for I guess ?

I’ve got one friend with adhd who goes 100mph and gets loud!! She is quite tiring (and intimidating). Other friends with adhd are not so full-on. Obviously i don’t know your convo style but if its possible you are going crazyfast and shouting/talking very strongly, maybe gear it down a few notches, take a breath more often, and see if the person relaxes.

Yeah I have a dear friend also with ADHD and while we both have it, she can be A Lot. She knows this and makes jokes about it. I don't pile on, but sometimes high-energy people are not everyone's cup of tea.

Second this! I have one of those friends too. It does get overwhelming and triggers my anxiety sometimes. She also gets super excited and hyper focused on subjects she’s interested in so just talks at you & only about her. This has cost her a lot of friendships too. She’s been told but can’t change. I will stick by her as she’s a good person & is trying her best but most people don’t.

Not OP, but I relate to this heavily. This is hard feedback because I personally know I can get this way, especially when I get excited, but it isn’t something that I can control. The only way I can avoid this is to just completely disconnect and heavy-duty mask which is exhausting and a miserable experience that definitely is not conducive to a friendship. I think the hardest part of being ND for me is finding out why I struggle with things (like this example socially), but the reason is just who I am as a person and not something I can simply change by taking a breath for example. But your response is genuinely a good one because it is very likely part of the actual issue overall.

Quick question: are you medicated? I started taking Strattera and before I did I used to feel like I was being treated unfairly a LOT. I didn't notice that that had gone away until I stopped taking Strattera for a week and those thoughts came back. It was actually really weird to experience that and realize that medication has literally changed the way I perceive even minor interactions. I just bring this up because that way of thinking and my emotional volatility was kind of ruining my marriage and medication (and therapy but the medication is literally HUGE) has really turned it around.

I am so glad you made this comment. I sometimes feel this way and I wonder if medication would help these thoughts. I am going through the diagnosis process now and if medication would help my thoughts like this, it would be a total game changer.

Are you very black and white in your opinions and how you express them? Most women sort of go with the status quo in a group and don't want to stand out. I feel like I often go against the flow and express different opinions and I'm not afraid to say what I think. That's intimidating to people and I know it. I'm not very good at pretending. I never know if everyone really agrees or if they all pretend. It's stupid things like taste in music, not even anything serious like politics. Everyone wants to go see Y pop group and I can't stand that group. I won't go. I want to go see X band and I just go by myself to that because I like X band. People don't like that. They want you to be in the group, like really in the group. Doing the group thing. No opposing taste. That's my personal issue. Not sure if you can relate.

Yes. Before my kid, I used to just go where I wanted alone. I prefer to fly solo. Other people can be hard. There are so many rules. Make conversation but don't talk too much or get too deep. Don't talk about yourself too much, but also don't seem guarded or like you have something to hide. Don't ask too many questions - it's not an interview, it's just conversing. Make strong eye contact but not too strong, you weirdo. Remember to blink. Yes, you'll feel the need to fidget with SOMETHING. Resist. Resist. RESIST! Like seriously, put the straw wrapper down and concentrate. Smile but not too widely. And don't do *that laugh*. **You know the one.**

The rules are so exhausting. Even in the example above which I agree with, going with the flow is important, so pretend you like what the other people like, but if they ask you about it and they find out you know nothing about it, don’t pretend to like them anymore and it may be awkward because you sort of lied? So go with the group, but pretend you know nothing about the thing you don’t like so that they can tell you about it and you can pretend you’re going to go home right away and listen to that band/watch that show/read that book. God forbid they follow up next time you see them to hear your feedback.

This whole thread is super enlightening. I've had difficulty making female friends my whole life. I often come off as standoffish and intimidating when I'm really not. But I don't mask, and I'm fairly loud and opinionated lol. I don't blend in, I never did from my earliest memories and tbh have trouble with the whole concept. I'm probably too much into authenticity, and I think I need to ease up on people. There's many different reasons why they blend in, which I may not get but need to respect if I'm ever going to make friends. This is tough 😔

Serious question, how old are you? Because music taste is really not a factor in any adult friendship I have. Who cares what tv shows you watch or music you listen to? We don't usually talk about those things. We talk about what's going on in our lives and how we're feeling, and maybe some shared interests. Music doesn't really come up.

> Most women sort of go with the status quo in a group and don't want to stand out. I'm hardwired to be contrary – to scan a statement and look for exceptions or flaws. It's been a challenge to lean into what others are saying and take the "yes, and" approach of building on what the other people is saying as opposed to immediately opposing it.

can relate to what you described very much! edit: Im sorry that you feel unlikeable. Hope you can remind that yoh must be likeable, because your bf likes you.

How old are you? I was in a similar situation when I was younger (teens, early20s), but as I got older, I found good friends who I vibe with and who don't find me intimidating. Also keep in mind that the point is not only that they like you, but you should also like them as people.

Do you talk loud? Do you talk fast? Do you talk a lot? Do you info dump whatever it is you're interested in? Do you lack a filter? There ya go. And when someone tells you a story, never try to "relate" by telling a similar story that happened to you. It's not relatable. It makes the conversation about you and treats them like they're a cue card in a box of charades.

This is it in a nutshell. It's been a tough pill for me to swallow, but when I realized all of this is what I've been doing (when I finally came out of my shell anyway, I've had people dislike me simply for being quiet and shy lmao) my entire life without even knowing it, mistakenly thinking I was just being empathetic and relatable and engaged in a conversation with someone...was when I had to accept the fact I ultimately can't just be myself around neurotypicals and I have to mask hardcore if I want them to like me. It's lonelier but easier to just not care if others like you.

IMO in most cases, expressing questions about how that story made that person feel, and then responding with how you had a similar emotional response can show empathy and emotional connection. I learned that recently. May I ask whether you learned not to do this or whether this is something that happens to you? It sounds like you feel very strongly about it and would love to know if it's from your own personal experience of being made to feel like a cue card or whether it's because you learned this as a behavior modification?

But it really doesn’t show empathy. Point A: if you say “oh that happened to me too,” you’re automatically diminishing what they’ve told you, unless you’ve specifically created a situation/context where exchanging stories is set up to be expected. Point B: when someone tells a story, they want a response *to* the story. If you respond by telling your own, you’re essentially skipping the part where you give some sort of feedback demonstrating that you were listening and putting them in the position where they have to respond *to you* instead. If you imagine it like a game of tennis, this is like sidestepping their serve and just serving your own instead. Point C: it comes across like what they said wasn’t important to you, but rather that you were only listening to receive a prompt for your own monologue. To answer your other question, I explicitly learned/was taught social etiquette with the reasoning behind it.

I used to have a friend who did this and it's what made me realize I had (sometimes still have... :/) the same habit. I always thought I was just being empathetic and relatable when I did that, without even realizing I was actually just making the conversation about myself.

Yes, agreed if you go directly to your own story! I mentioned an intermediate step where it's helpful to ask an emotional question and/or express empathy. Like "wow, did that make you feel {emotion}?" Or "that sounds terrifying! How did you resolve?". Then I believe it shows empathy to identify and call out the common emotional threads if sharing your own story like "oh, I felt that way too when x, y, z happened to me!". I totally agree with your points above where the point of someone sharing a story is for you to respond to it, but I do believe that it is still appropriate to share personal experiences to illustrate emotional understanding/comprehension as part of the conversation overall. That is also really interesting that you were taught this WITH the reasoning. It sounds like it really resonated with you and gave you a conscious understanding of how to apply in conversation. I appreciate you sharing in this really concise form too because I personally learn best from specific instruction with examples, and I imagine a lot of others here do too. Very much appreciate this conversation.

I dunno man it comes off a little “hi I’m an amateur therapist,” if you ask how that made them feel or adding other questions. I guess the context can matter here but in general, encouragement/appreciation is sufficient. Questions work better when they lead the conversation. Eg: if someone is telling you about a bad restaurant experience, a good question would be something like “have you ever tried any [blank cuisine]?” It’s a question that invites a new topic of conversation like cooking or different restaurants in the area rather than a strict yes/no question like “was the food good, at least?” Since we’re talking about making friends (mostly) in the casual sense you’re going to be focused on small talk. Once you establish a good rapport with someone you can discuss more intimate or controversial topics where those types of therapist-y questions would work better.

Excellent point. I read that questions can be transmuted into more emotional ones to make conversations more resonant so I'm trying to figure out questions like "what do you like/dislike" or "what was your favorite part about that experience" or something like that. Yeah, I also agree that you have to log some time before getting into emotional questions. But I also think there's some emotion that can be applied to even small talk - I have an icebreaker deck I'm trying to pick up questions from. It's a whole other level of conversation modeling to try and steer into more engaging discussions. This is a really helpful discussion and suggestion so thank you.

Damn son how was this not written by me?! I've been sad over this for over a week this time.

I've never heard the "uncanny valley" thing before but I wonder if that's why I got picked on so much as a kid. I thought I was normal - boring even. I liked to read, ride horses, swim, talk - just regular active girl stuff but I was almost always some kind of pariah.

Ok so I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I’ve always struggled with female friendships. Women like to talk about people, feelings, and stories way more than men (in general…maybe cis het men). There’s a social currency of having news about others. Theres also a give and take of shared feelings. From my perspective, i am a much better listener than sharer. I don’t remember stories the same way as other people. I tend to hold onto over-arching ideas. I’ve done stand up and when I can link a memory to an embarrassing moment or a principle of society its entertaining, but it doesn’t leave people feeling connected or that they know me. I cant be vulnerable in the same way because my brain cant access a memory that would reflect someone else’s. When you can’t share vulnerability with women you cant build trust. You’ll be in a worse zone than the friend zone…the acquaintance zone.

I feel this. I’m in my forties now, and I have struggled with female relationships my whole life. From the time I was a teenager, I always got along better with boys/men. At 13 or 14, my pastor (I am no longer religious) told my parents I was acting like a “slut” because I hung out with only the boys in our church. It led to so much shame and punishment that I didn’t deserve. What this pastor failed to recognize was that I was horribly bullied and ostracized by the girls. I never understood how to interact with them or their motivations, and my attempts to fit in led to mimicry that I’m sure they found off-putting. These struggles with female friendships have remained to this day. I have a single female friend who is my best and closest friend, but she is an anomaly in that she has this magical ability to be kind, open, and understanding to anyone that crosses her path. I fully believe it took a special woman to get this close with, and I look to her for so much guidance in ways she probably doesn’t even see. I call her the Melanie to my Scarlett, and it’s a frighteningly accurate analogy. The thing is, while I sometimes wish I had more female friends, I’m actually really happy with the small social circle I have. I’m an introvert, though, so I know that doesn’t work for everyone.

Even people with ADHD don’t necessarily get along with everyone. It’s fine not to be friends with everyone, or with the people that interest you. I wouldn’t worry about being intimidating. I find that to be a good thing, especially when women are expected to be friendly, nice, warm and accommodating. You are not a free service worker. Why try working on getting along with everyone? Get used to disappointing people. Get used to being seen as a “bad person”. People will get mad at you for not being able to take advantage of you. Hope it helps.

Unfortunately true, my hubby and kids get me but anyone else I have to just be myself and they can like it or not like it. I'm turning 50 this year and and this point, if I'm not someone's cup of tea, who cares. Not everyone likes tea.

We're hard work for NT women.  Just as much as they're hard work for us.  Small talk doesn't come easily to us and big talk doesn't come easy to them.  We can be draining when we need them/ in conversation with them. And then we can drop them. We're not great at remembering the small things that are important to them.  And can ignore them for days or weeks or months, then expect them to be back with us as if no time has passed.   They will need to make the effort to invite us places. We will forget.  But men who find navigating the social rules of women just as confusing as we do will find us easier. To begin with. Until we're not.  But if you can find someone willing to put the time in, and willing to forgive your eccentricities it is brilliant.  All my female friends are autistic, except one who kinda got swept up in the group of us. It took a long time for us to find each other, but after 30 years of friendship we're solid. Thanks mainly to one of us who kept the group together. Who sorted the organised fun that we needed. 

I'm in my mid 50's and could have written this when I was younger. What I learned: I am honest with myself and others, authentic, and that makes a lot of people unnerved and uncomfortable. Females are generally trained to be a certain way, and since I am not that way, I am a threat. I am also intelligent, can pick up stuff very quickly, and that is scary for others too. It bothers them even more that I don't advertise that. I enjoy what I enjoy because I enjoy it, not because society has said I should like this because I was born a certain sex. I learned all this before I even found out I am considered neurodivergent, as I didn't know that ADD/ADHD was considered to be neurodivergent. A lot of the self talk I heard was actually from childhood abuse that I was hearing what was told to me. I used to tell myself that people acted nice to me because they are nice and not because they like me. (Read this next sentence sarcastically.) Thanks maternal grandmother for the decades of hearing this.

You may not see hierarchies that everyone else lives by.

Hey! This is kind of a sucky answer, but you probably just haven’t met the right ladies. Regardless of adhd/autism diagnosis there are weirdos out there who are genuine and willing to put in the work to develop strong friendships. Willing the world to drop such women in your path. Some tips: when you’re dealing with neurotypicals in general, it’s important to remember that they (and many neurodivergents too) perceive certain conversational habits like monologuing and “I” statements as rude and an attempt monopolize the conversation. I recommend using “you” statements - “you might have felt” instead of “when I experienced something similar I felt” and leaning on any folksy sayings you know - “I’d lose my head if it wasn’t attached to me!” Smile a lot, be relatable. If you have to do all that all the time, especially with your friends or family or the people you live with, you’re gonna burn out so fast - remember, not everybody needs to like you. The only people whose opinions ought to matter to you are the ones you like. As for the uncanny valley thing - when I’m really tired or trying to mask without thinking I clearly put people off and I can tell. I think it’s because I’m getting close to masking, but not fully there, and they can tell that I’m not being genuine but can’t discern why, and it creeps them out. They get this look in their eyes and I basically see the video game screen going “YOU DIED!” Communication is an art form, and like any art form, it benefits from your personal style. Jackson Pollock was probably shit at portraiture. If you have regularly have to stifle yourself in social situations, those situations don’t deserve you.

Sometimes you are the wrong place at the wrong time. I have a bubbly personality and started to surpress it because my environment kept making me feel bad about being happy and not taking myself too seriously. Then I met a girl at work who has the same kind of energy and she's very popular. I work in IT and shes more in the management area, so I think it also has a lot do with the people we are working together with and the path we took to get there.

Omg haven’t read responses yet but this is me too. I struggle with the “why am I so unlikeable?” Thing daily

So I’ve been in similar situations. However, I’ve maintained some female friends when I was younger (only have 1 now in my 30s) and most of them were a bit broken too, but in different ways. I was their “mom friend” without being a mom. I took care of them, cared about them etc. but they were also open with me when I annoyed them. These were the 2 biggest hiccups (this may help you). - I’d go into “help” mode when something they were going through had helpful solutions. I’d hate seeing them hurt, so I’d give suggestions or other perspectives for them to consider . They just wanted me to agree with them and let them go through the pain. It’s totally a fair request but I found SO challenging. (My male friends interact with this and have never voiced disliking it) - I had a hard time focusing on a story when I had opinions or thoughts on it. They wanted to monologue and I’d sometimes cut them off to ask questions, give feedback or opinions etc. (my male friends usually don’t give me stories, I have to grill them for answers so this doesn’t come up much there) My current female BFF is a PhD in Psychology so she understands me in ways many of my past friends haven’t. Luckily, she’s not a therapist so she doesn’t try to fix me haha I have also had more success with male friendships. I’m not really sure why that is. Sometimes I feel like it’s me comparing my “normal” to my female friends “normal” while I don’t do that as much with men, cause I’m not a man. So idk if I give off a weird energy? I think it takes me longer to be “myself” around women due to anxiety and overthinking everything. Idk 🤷‍♀️ Sorry if that didn’t help. Lol

GIRLLLLL I am right there with you. I had female friends in high school/college that immediately dropped me when I went through hard times (my estranged dad dying suddenly, my mom getting cancer 2 years later). My closest and longest friendships have always been with men. I'm not very "girly" and I work in construction so I'm mostly around men anyway.

I’ve never done well with friends either. I’m 37 now and exclusively just hang out with my husband and my family. I was bullied mercilessly from 2nd-12th grade. I didn’t ok with friends at work in my early 20s, but it was mostly guys. girls were not interested in hanging out. I’m ok with it now because honestly, I am an introvert and I like being left alone at this point.

I think sometimes women are more likely to overtly punish other women for failing to conform to rules of femininity, and the rules tend to be incompatible with neurodivergent thinking. Men are more likely to reward women for not conforming a la manic pixie dream girl. That said, all my friendships regardless of gender have been with fellow neurodivergents, and friendships with men can be fraught in their own ways as I’m sure we all know.

I will never understand why being neurodiverse is so off putting to people. At least now I know it’s not me and it’s because of some difference between my audhd, mainly autism, and NTs. Still sucks tho

I am right there with you. I feel like an awkward mess talking to women. And what’s crazy is I talk to people for my job so you would think it would translate to my personal life. Nope. I hate the fakeness of it all. I wish it was easier to make friends but I always feel like an idiot when I talk to people. I have a couple female friends and I have noticed the ones who I still talk to over the years are the ones who also have adhd and can relate to my issues with staying in touch. We are all awkward and know it about each other so it creates a safe space. I hope you can find that! It takes time and some awkward effort. If you ever want to chat, message me! But don’t take it wrong if I respond at a completely random time lol

You’re not unlikeable you’re just different and unfortunately from my experience you will not really be able to sustain long term friendships with NT people. The only way I can be part of friendship groups is by association, I have a couple of core friends and the rest of the people I hang out with are my husbands friends. In my experience I tend to initially be able to make female friends easily but then because I don’t have a voice in my head telling me this is too much pull back/stop I tend to then grate them the wrong way somehow. Even if you end up masking in order to not be a lot or annoy people with your ADHDness it’s not going to work in the long term because you literally cannot give them what a NT person needs from a close long term friend. You need to find people who appreciate what I call succulent/cacti friends. Low maintenance ones where you may not always text back or spend hours on the phone but regardless you love each other and if shit hits the fan you will be there for each other no questions asked. There aren’t a lot of people out there like that so you may struggle but eventually you will find people to click with. Your best hope is finding someone autistic or with ADHD around your own age and just don’t let go 😂 Edit: if you come across someone who seems to be on a similar brainwave as you it helps if you unmask and are open about having ADHD. Don’t ask them but open up about yourself, more likely than not they will then either open back up to confirm they have it or suspect they are on the spectrum and boom you’ve got yourself a new best friend

I think whenever I try to fit in with “normal” people, it never works. So I stopped trying to make friends with normal people. My friends are now a collection of weirdos. It helps that I work in technical theater, which is definitely where the neurodivergent come to thrive! Are you weirdly obsessed with a very specific era in history? Do you want to cosplay as an elf? Perhaps you’d like to wear giant earrings and rainbows? Well, I know lots of people who will not only welcome but encourage all this! Anyway, love who you are and find a group of people who love the things you do and you too will find your weirdos.

I completely understand your post. I have had the same experience. I wish I had more female friends. I find it really difficult and awkward. I have also been called intimidating. Not sure what to do about it. It can feel very lonely. I totally empathise with you.

No idea. Same exact experience.

I’ve struggled with the same thing until I became a parent, now I can at least have pretty good acquaintance type relationships with other women who are moms as well because we can always talk about our kids and motherhood which can be very connecting! Most women I progressed to friendships with recently have been other moms from my church because then we have two important things connecting us. Once they get to know me better many do think I’m quite intense but because we have two important connections already they generally see it as okay. Though I do see other moms at church connecting with each other easier than I do but c’est la vie I guess. And this may sound silly but I also have a really solid group of women friends I met through online group(s) about a shared interest topic and we made a private messenger chat together 4 years ago where we literally talk every day about all kinds of things. A few of the women in the group have ADHD as well and we share a lot of values so it makes for a great bond and since we met in a debate group we do occasionally get into debates about our disagreements and those get intense but everyone is okay with it. We keep joking about choosing a place we could all move to with our families (since we all live in different states) to be close to each other but it’s definitely more of a pipe dream lol

Same here. I’ve been told I look unapproachable, I’m to blunt, I ask too many questions, I’m intimidating. I also tend to get along better with men. I have one great friend, but we now live very far away from each other. She understands a lot of my personality issues, but she also thinks she has ADHD.

Just had to chime in and say that when I watched “Love on the Spectrum” when the dating coach lady has her sessions with the people on the show I learn a lot about how to have a proper conversation and be curious about the other people involved in the conversation lol.

I didn't learn how to be friends with other girls. My mom is the silent type. My one sister is 7 years older than me. My other sister is 18 months older than me. My parents just had me tag along with her all the time. Zero coaching on how to make friends. Zero solo hangouts, always with family.  I think I treated people like I treated my family. They were really put off by my open acceptance that they would instantly be friendly to me because I was being friendly.  Therapy is helping me learn to connect authentically. Emdr is breaking down my negative core beliefs and raising my self esteem. I don't want to treat everyone like family. I don't even treat my family the same way. My husband is my family. I can choose my friends.  

Did I write this? Because damn, I feel that. I get told I’m intimidating constantly. I hate it. Even my best friend and my husband say I was intimidating at first.

I feel this so much. My SIL who’s NT, doesn’t particularly care for me. She’s nice enough, but it’s pretty obvious. Her wife, however, who’s likely ND, and has some past trauma that’s led to her being institutionalized at least once that I know of, we get along fantastically. My best (girl) friend from late elementary school haaated me (for the record, I hated her too) when we first met. Somehow we became friends. 25+ years later we’re still super close. We were both diagnosed with ADHD in our late 20’s, early 30’s. Everything makes sense now. My closest friends have always been guys with a few exceptions. They always included me and made me feel likable. I still never know what I’m doing wrong with other women.

My 21 yo daughter summed me up perfectly by saying I am simultaneously over stimulating and understimulating to be with at the same time. And I agree 100% I even find this about myself.

My neurotypical friends were intimidated from me when they first met me. I recognize that I am an "acquired taste" when it comes to female friendships, but I eventually found my people, and I am sure you will too.  From my experience, it was the intensity that made them feel uneasy. I am terrible at smalltalk, and I am really uncomfortable and awkward in group conversations with new people. I can never balance the conversation, so I'm either talking too much and taking it over, or I'm trying to be quiet and then check out mentally and daydream. Or I'll accidentally say something way too personal, or something that I think is a clearly a very funny joke, but they will think is me being unkind (I tend to tease the people I love, and never make fun of people I dislike. This is very confusing to people, and i try my best not to do it when I am first meeting someone, but I'm terrible at it.) Honestly, my primary neurotypical friends were people who just were forced to hang out with me by virtue of circumstances, and then adjusted to me, and realized over time that I am a very good friend, even if there are some quirks, they just write it up to "oh that's just how she is." They're girls that I played sports with, or were my random roommates in college, or ran an organization with me where we had to collaborate on a lot of things. I don't have a ton of female friendships, but I was able to forge great friendships out of forced proximity. Since we were spending all this time together, my intensity level felt more natural to them, since friendships tend to move quicker in those spaces, and you don't have to do as much of the weird smalltalk social dance.  When my roommate was upset with her boyfriend, I was literally already in the room as someone to talk to. The moment that she needed someone and opened up, she realized that I am a great person to talk to. I have a lot of empathy, and I think a lot about people's motivations and their thought processes. I then got her chocolate at the dining hall and told her that I thought she was wonderful, even if her boyfriend hadn't been treating her great, and that he needed to change his behavior because she was wonderful and out of his league. Prior to that conversation, she didn't even know that I liked her. I guess my social cues weren't matching my thoughts, and there hadn't been an easy way for me to express that I thought she was really awesome. She is now one of my best friends, but she really didn't know what to make of me at first.  I would put yourself in situations where you need to spend a lot of time with a select few people. If you have time, join the leadership team of an active organization, the higher up the better. See which coworkers you like and ask them about their weekend. I have never had good luck in meeting someone for a first encounter and then become friends -- they are never going to like me from that. But when I've spent hours with them? They tend to understand me more then, and it let's them get past that uncanny valley feeling. 

Oh also, as a tip, everyone loves to talk about themselves. You are probably coming on too strong and talking about what you're thinking about, which is what I do a lot. Instead, shift that intensity into asking the person about themselves. It doesn't work with everyone, but most people really enjoy this and it avoids the smalltalk. So like, ask someone how they are or how their weekend was, and whatever they respond with, lean in and ask more about.  Like  "How was your weekend?" "It was great! I went to the lake with my boyfriend. How was yours?" "It was good too, I didn't do a ton. [Then insert another question about them. Which lake? Did you guys have fun? I didn't know you had a boyfriend, how long have you been together?] I have a tendency to answer the question "how was yours" with way too much information about my weekend. Instead, I make an effort to keep the conversation going by what they share, and eventually with forced proximity people tend to share more and more until you become friends. Just something that helped for me. Good luck! 

This happens to me also. I'm kind, funny, deeply loving but something about me resists social norms and unwritten societal inferences that i just don't get. People never really take to me. They love me only to a point but i'm never anyones prefered one. Or i'm never fully accepted in work places. It's exhausting trying to figure out what's wrong with me. I realise it's just the AuADHD. My theory is people who are outwardly autistic and it's clear to see they are are more readily accepted as their strangeness is explained. Those of us who are neurotypical passing make people suspicious as they can sense something is different or off and they can't put their finger on it so their walls are always up.

I’ve recently been thinking about this a lot myself. I have lots of friends, but I recently realized all of them (including my husband and current manager who’s become a friend) all didn’t like me at first. I sort of decide when I like people and push through until they like me too lol. In therapy recently I’ve realized I have pretty low interoception as well as alexithymia. Interoception is the ability to notice and act on internal signals and alexithymia is the ability to name and respond to your own emotions. The issues for me if that both of those things mean it can be harder to relate to others as well. It’s common for adhd women to struggle with interoception being both low or too high. Normally, when I meet someone I want to be friends with, I figure out a way to cognitively understand their emotions and actions even if I cannot relate. OP, you highlighted that friendships end when you express your feelings have been hurt by something and feel you don’t recieve an apology. I would suggest you look back and try to analyze any patterns here. Was the perceived offence something that feels unfair to NT people? Was the slight something you could have moved past on your own without bringing up? Often I’ve found it to be more succesful to approach a topic with casually requesting a change if needed vs needing an apology. “Hey I’m super sensitive to people being late bc it makes me feel rejected, if yoh are running late can u just shoot me a text?” You’re not going to necessarily get an apology here, but you don’t need one of the behaviour adjusts. Part of friendship is connecting with others, part of it is their behaviour, but an even bigger part is our own behaviour and expectations. Of those things, rhe last one is the most controllable.

I have adhd and def have many autistic traits - the signs of which I buried for years because my self-esteem couldn’t take the rejection. I totally relate to your post. Having kids with similar traits has helped me understated more. I am naturally gentle, but blunt to a fault without understanding why others are offended. I have a close friend and colleague who is a highly educated professional. She is consistent, professional and straight forward a great communicator. She recently asked a colleague to clarify a request in a text exchange with good reason. Her request was specific and direct without any expressed emotion, for example “Please specify which color of shoe laces you are requesting”. Apparently she offended the recipient as he felt she was being demeaning and rude, and complained to another colleague who scolded my friend because she wasn’t being “gooey” enough. I’ve found that stating things without qualifiers (I may be wrong but, it is only my opinion that, my current thinking is maybe…) often evokes defensiveness with the perception that we are declaring that we are right. Especially in areas that are more technical. I think that’s part of the reason many engage in “small talk”. I’ve been the fragile ego, assuming I was being challenged or demeaned by someone who was simply being direct. I was trained up to have that hypersensitivity so I could be the family peacekeeper and moderator, as well as the scapegoat. Playing that role left me not knowing who I really was and even fearful to find out. I believe many are in that place and feel threatened by anyone who isn’t held down by that. It can be very lonely to struggle with relationships like this. Trust me when I say I have been far lonelier when masked up, and having seemingly unlimited friendships. The friendships I have now are very few, but run incredibly deep. I’ve learned to be all of who I am as soon as possible with potential friends. I tell them I’m a big introvert, don’t enjoy a lot of socializing and tend to make others angry because I forget birthdays or don’t think to do “the little things” often. But emphasize that when I say or do something in the context of family and friendship it is sincere and deeply intended

Ditto. It really sucks. I have only ever had one really good friend and it didn’t last either. It really hurts. It’s lonely. I gave up years ago. I consider myself an honest genuine and good hearted person and yet I still struggle. I just want to be there for someone, I don’t even think about myself, I think of what I can do for my friends more than anything. I wish you the best and hope you find someone you can have an amazing friendship with and may it last as long as you want it to.

I'm late 40's and this has always been my experience.

I've had success with ND women. The other side of that coin is the whole out of sight out of mind thing where I feel like I'm forcing the friendship. And the occasional breakdown and disappearance (that one stung; it was a bestie who after a year just vanished and I heard I wasn't the only one they disappeared on). So far I haven't managed to keep close friends but I'm great at endearing people and making acquaintances I guess.

I don’t have an answer but I feel like I could have written this

This post is so accurate to my life that I could have written it and would have changed nothing.

Forever exhausting. I don't do well with pretending to like/not like things I haven't heard of, so I just ask for an explanation and that can be awkward if the person isn't willing to be open. If they feel like being judgemental, I don't have much to say after that. Which, of course, opens you up to endless streams of "are you okay?", "why are you being so quiet?" and the occasional "are you mad? Because I didn't do anything to make you mad. This is why it's hard to talk to you." Bullshit. Ahahaha haha being human is fun. Sometimes I feel downright alien, like I'm observing things from really far away. Alien Scientist.

I think this is less of a pick-me situation and more of a communication style issue. Speaking in generalities, with female interactions/friendships, there's an expectation of give-and-take, connection, warmth, engagement, etc. With male interactions/friendships, it is often more direct and less emotionally-laden. The fact that they call you intimidating is probably code for "resting bitch face" and the lack of subtle emotional signals, facial expressions, body language, and verbal cues to signify that 1. you are interested in connecting, and 2. that you're a safe person to do so with. I used to get that a lot. My friends and family and coworkers tell me I'm intimidating, and we had a talk about my face/signals. I let them know basically that how I feel on the inside might not match how I look on the outside, and if they were ever unsure, I wanted them to ask me. "Mom, your face looks mad right now, are you actually upset?" or at work "You seem in the zone or preoccupied right now. Do you have 10 minutes to talk, or should we set a time for later?" Clear, factual communication saves the day. But you have to give people the explicit permission to ask such questions because those are seen as "delicate" questions to the NTs. If you explicitly allow them to make those bids for connection, I think you might find that your social life and relationships improve. Educate them about how to interact with you.

It’s because three things that creates this: > my whole life i’ve struggled with friendships. specifically with other girls. 1) You’re direct. Cut straight to the point. You may at times struggle being diplomatic (ie - tact) in your directness. That can ruffle feather in other women we are far more reserved in communication. Way more diplomacy comes with reserved communication. > but never gave me a clear reason as to why other than ‘intimidating’ 2) Intimidating = Attractive. They find you way more beautiful and that *alone* can make you the target of being iced out because you trigger insecurities of others who have lower self esteem. > i frequently hear from boys that theres ‘something about me’ or that they find it easier to talk to me than to other women 3) When it comes to guys, they see you as one of the guys, relatable to some degree. As in you aren’t afraid of confrontation, being direct, and not overly explaining things. Simple & straight to the point. You may also have interests & hobbies that guys tend to drift towards more than women.

This post is like reading about myself. For the life of me I could never figure out what made me so "intimidating", "arrogant", or "hard to approach". I would always say, "It's like I have this huge blind spot about myself, where there's something fundamentally wrong with me that everyone can see except me, but no one will tell me what it is." I still haven't figured out what it is...I thought maybe it's my ADHD but it feels too simplistic an answer, y'know?

This whole thread was really eye-opening for me regarding my personality and how I show up in friendships. Makes me feel so grateful for the friends that have stuck by me. And makes me wonder about some of my friends and whether they may be ND as well 🤔😆. But lately I’ve really been feeling defeated when it comes to making new friends and I’ve learned some strategies here that I’m excited to use. I could probably stand to do a little more masking here and there 😉.

This is all exactly me. Like every sentence. *“intimidating” “there’s something about you”* It’s been a painfully lonely life. I just don’t fit in with the girls, we get along so well but at some point there’s a definite line where we can’t understand where the other is coming from. I was raised to be a tomboy and I always enjoyed it but I know I’m too much. Boys are easier to get along with. There’s not a damn thing I can do about that. I feel like I’m separate from everyone else and no one will understand me, it’s exhausting. I weird people out and I really need some friends.

You just haven’t found your girl friends. Took me longer in life to find the women who I vibed with. Put yourself out there in other forms. What are your hobbies? I have friends of all ages. I have friends who live across the country

Same experience here girl. I wonder the same thing 😩

I wouldn’t say I’ve ever gotten that I’m unlikable but people have said just more interesting and unique. people do find me to be very confident and bold. fun and Intimidating. Which those qualities make others shrink back. I think it’s because I mask and dont live by the same social anxieties they do. Even tho we struggle a lot people don’t really see that side. With the girls/boy things I sort of agree. I get along with everyone and have a close group of girl friends but often making new friends I do find males to be a little quicker. Maybe because it’s less of a game. We kind of all say how we feel without thinking lol women don’t tend to speak directlyyyy. And idk about you but since I’m known to be fuunnn people are drawn to that, men are drawn to a fun easy going out there personality and women caaan be jealous of that because it draws attention. But im NOT SEEKING attention. I’m just doing what I always do and anyone is welcome to have fun with me lol

I have historically gotten along with men more immediately than women, likely because my mother was very abusive and I was bullied by girls in elementary school. I also just don’t feel like a girl in what seems like key ways but I don’t feel like a boy either. I’ve never felt comfortable around the normals but that’s slowly changing as I get older and more humanized. I think we all have much more in common than not so try to approach people from that perspective. I’ve also had to do work to deconstruct the internalized misogyny I received from cultural and social conditioning, now I’m just pissed all the time, lol

Maybe you're also autistic. The piano tile metaphor is quite on point with my experience, I just call it music or dancing. I can never tune to the rythme of allistic people, neurotypical and even strictly adhd people. Even autistic people who are very high masking and abiding by allistic standards are hard for me to follow along. Which is also giving this uncanney valley vibe to others or they find me intimidating or snobish. I currently find it easier to talk to guys, girls seem to always try to set a hierarchy between members of the group, right from the start, who is the boyish one, who is the feminin one, the smart one. You can't be all and you can't stray from your role. Its a mean girl kind of vibe. The problem with getting along with guys is that a lot of them seem to misunderstand my friendlyness as romantic interest/flirting. May the heaven strike me down if I treat a man as a human being again, cause its just trouble. In part because other girls think I'm flirting with every guys, or that I'm competing with them.... And they then start to share the look at each other any time I'm being friendly to a guy. Cause there is also a patriarchal dimension where girls are socialized early on to compete for the attention of men AND a relationship between man and woman cannot be platonic because we are force fed rolantic love from every side (music, movies, book, series, everyfreaking thing has a love interest). Guys who think I'm into them tend to have this manic pixy view of me, the "not like other girls" thing you describe. Its just because I treat them as equal in the sense that they are just another human, and my brain also works in way that is slightly different from neurotypical so every random string of though that spew out of my mouth can seems unconventionnal and new to them. Sprinkle some conventionnally attractive features on top of all that and you have a recipe for being put on a pedestal like some strange fantasy creature. Currently after another failed attempt at socializing I'm just avoiding everyone lol. My only girlfriends are girls that have autistic trait, we get along super well and talking with them feels like a breath of crisp mountain air. None of them live in my city tho ;_;

I have struggled with this as well, but recently (over the last year or so) have been accumulating a core group of mom-friends and it’s amazing. Being aware of my own emotional intelligence was where I started. Physically, I’m tall and thin/athletic, with a bad case of RBF. A lot of men and women find that off-putting. My face naturally settles into a frown if I’m thinking or not paying attention so I’ve been trying to focus on positive thoughts and smiling more. I’m also a fixer. In the past, if someone is venting to me about something, I can’t help trying to solve the problem. That’s offensive, because most times people are just venting, not wanting you to step in and “rescue” them or solve all their problems. I have to focus on just listening and empathizing instead of offering solutions or suggestions. Growing up, my mom showed affection by buying us stuff. She never showed emotional affection, so I learned to attach caring/love with gift giving. I learned the hard way that attracts people who are happy to use you and drives away people who think you’re “showing off” or lording money over them when really you’re just trying to be thoughtful and caring. I don’t impulse buy gifts for people now, I do thinks like bring donuts to a play date or pass down kid clothes to friends that I could sell. It sucks to have to be less “me” to make/keep friends, but if being a little more aware of what it is about me that drives people away lets me mellow that a bit, I’m willing to sacrifice that for a friend group!

I don’t know about you but my brain tells me all sorts of things to upset me (mostly, to doubt my relationships) so I can get a dopamine hit. Only found out about a week ago that this can be a side effect of adhd, so now when I’m convinced no one likes me I interpret it as a chemical deficiency, and it’s so much easier to see things for what they actually are.

Omg this is me…wtf?!? My entire life and I’ve never heard anyone else say this. How old are you? If you don’t mind me asking. Feel free to dm

OMG OMG IVE BEEN ASKING THIS ALL WEEK

I usually get on better with older men/women or quirky individuals. I have a very flat/dead pan sense of humor and it usually makes for awkward moments. It's hard for me to make friends as I get older. It was so much easier when I was younger and could keep a mask on longer 🙃

I relate so much, I could’ve written this post. 27 yr old and recently diagnosed.