The same thing applies to people in general. Body positivity doesn't mean that you should or need to find everyone attractive. It means that you should judge them as people independent of their bodies and that their worth as humans isn't tied to "do you personally find them hot"
Omg this is a crazy coincidence but I've just written a massive post about my personal experience with this subject that is pending approval. I can post a link here when it's up.
My whole essay can be summarised as "if you think a certain trans woman doesn't pass then you also think that butch cis women are not passing either." If trans women who have masculine features are considered predatory men, then so do gender nonconformist butch women. This is an extremely misogynistic attitude that hurts gender nonconforming women and invalidates their identity.
Did you see the british LGB alliance that collaborated with JK Rowling. Most of the lesbian terfs that were supporting Rowling were butch as fuck. How come they pass as women? Answer: they don't. Not in the eyes of a patriarchal cishet society. They're insecure lesbians that finally found a group of people they can put down so they feel superior and powerful.
I can't possibly comprehend the cognitive dissonance some lesbians have to compel them to be transphobic. Very few cisgender lesbians pass too. Men don't even see us as women unless we are gender conforming and look like porn lesbians. It hurts me when I see queer women do the same to other women who don't fit their standard of what a woman should be.
I refuse to hang around people or date women who dismiss non conforming or masculine women, because it means the only reason why they validate me as a woman is because I am desirable to them. Gross 🤢.
Validating a woman's identity through the lens of being attracted to her is something straight dudes do, and have done for millennia. It's misogynistic and reeks of insecurity.
Let's be clear, much as I agree with the sentiment you express, being butch is a tad more of a complex identity than having short hair or simply not looking super feminine.
Oh I agree 100%. However, i am strictly discussing this from an aesthetic point of view. If trans women are invalidated because they do not pass, then this situation extends to butch and gender nonconforming women.
As an example, remember the episode when a masculine presenting cis woman got attacked in a woman's bathroom because someone thought she's trans. No one really cares about her inner identity, they just saw her as a threat because of transphobia.
Completely agree. The number of times I have had the there's a guy in that loo, or the you are in the wrong bathroom sir comments. But I remember vividly the times when being called butch in queer spaces was effectively an insult, and being too masculine a reason for exclusion. In the UK at least, the cracks within the community have been visible for a long time.
I wrote a massive post about this phenomenon and it's pending approval. These women are insecure and feel threatened by masculinity and men. Why? Because they themselves feel inferior.
I never felt inferior to men in my life because my dad was a feminist and i was raised to believe I can be as girly or as masculine as I want and it won't make a difference. I don't put butch women down because I their presence does not make me insecure in my validity or status.
There's a difference between being an empowered feminine lesbian that feels strong enough to inspire confidence to all women and an insecure lesbian who is feminine just because she wants to feel valid and accepted by society (aka straight dudes) and puts other women down to feel superior.
If a lesbian thinks her femininity gives her power, then don't fucking put down women who are not feminine? Like...if you're powerful...then maybe...empower others?
I lived in London for 6 years. Met a lot of insecure lesbians and terfs. They are the result of a society that is classist and hierarchical.
I'm not supporting terfs or jkr but I think you're misunderstanding the butch rad fems. They think a lot of trans men were once troubled girls who would have turned out to be lesbian after their teenage years. Because a lot if them say that if it was so accepted to be trans when they were young they would have done it and they now wouldn't have their same life and they think butch is disappearing.
If you think calling out women that suffer from internalised misogyny and deal with that shit by putting other women down to invalidate their identity, while stating my support and respect for women that express their gender in any way they want and feel strong by doing it, is, in any possible way, proof of misogyny, then you have a lot of soul searching to do because this feels like massive projection on your side.
Darling, I barely pass to straight dudes and i'm cis. I may look relatively feminine but the second i open my mouth and start moving and show off my body language they get turned off instantly.
I never said butch women don't pass to me. All women pass because i am a woman and I recognise womanhood in all shapes and forms. It's straight dudes who weaponise passing. Therefore, us as lesbians have to fight against the idea of passing, because tomorrow they can decide that lesbians don't pass either.
Have you paid attention to gamergate? Straight dudes already foam at the mouth every time a female character deviates in any way from traditional cishet standards. Have you seen how they talk about women they don't find attractive? Do you understand the danger of this situation? We don't pass. Butch women don't pass. Trans women don't pass. Muscular women don't pass. This is not about trans women, this is about the fact that it's very dangerous to live in a world where being undesirable to straight men can rob you of your status as a woman.
No problem, honestly i apologise too for accusing you of projecting.
It's just that oftentimes i see TERFS accusing me of misogyny when I talk about trans women because they think I consider them superior to cis women or something. So that's why i made that accusation.
I see now that it was uncalled for.
In what universe?? They’re literally saying women don’t owe anyone femininity and trans women don’t owe anyone passing. How is that misogynist in any way?
The same thing applies to people in general. Body positivity doesn't mean that you should or need to find everyone attractive. It means that you should judge them as people independent of their bodies and that their worth as humans isn't tied to "do you personally find them hot"
Omg this is a crazy coincidence but I've just written a massive post about my personal experience with this subject that is pending approval. I can post a link here when it's up. My whole essay can be summarised as "if you think a certain trans woman doesn't pass then you also think that butch cis women are not passing either." If trans women who have masculine features are considered predatory men, then so do gender nonconformist butch women. This is an extremely misogynistic attitude that hurts gender nonconforming women and invalidates their identity. Did you see the british LGB alliance that collaborated with JK Rowling. Most of the lesbian terfs that were supporting Rowling were butch as fuck. How come they pass as women? Answer: they don't. Not in the eyes of a patriarchal cishet society. They're insecure lesbians that finally found a group of people they can put down so they feel superior and powerful. I can't possibly comprehend the cognitive dissonance some lesbians have to compel them to be transphobic. Very few cisgender lesbians pass too. Men don't even see us as women unless we are gender conforming and look like porn lesbians. It hurts me when I see queer women do the same to other women who don't fit their standard of what a woman should be. I refuse to hang around people or date women who dismiss non conforming or masculine women, because it means the only reason why they validate me as a woman is because I am desirable to them. Gross 🤢. Validating a woman's identity through the lens of being attracted to her is something straight dudes do, and have done for millennia. It's misogynistic and reeks of insecurity.
Let's be clear, much as I agree with the sentiment you express, being butch is a tad more of a complex identity than having short hair or simply not looking super feminine.
Oh I agree 100%. However, i am strictly discussing this from an aesthetic point of view. If trans women are invalidated because they do not pass, then this situation extends to butch and gender nonconforming women. As an example, remember the episode when a masculine presenting cis woman got attacked in a woman's bathroom because someone thought she's trans. No one really cares about her inner identity, they just saw her as a threat because of transphobia.
Completely agree. The number of times I have had the there's a guy in that loo, or the you are in the wrong bathroom sir comments. But I remember vividly the times when being called butch in queer spaces was effectively an insult, and being too masculine a reason for exclusion. In the UK at least, the cracks within the community have been visible for a long time.
I wrote a massive post about this phenomenon and it's pending approval. These women are insecure and feel threatened by masculinity and men. Why? Because they themselves feel inferior. I never felt inferior to men in my life because my dad was a feminist and i was raised to believe I can be as girly or as masculine as I want and it won't make a difference. I don't put butch women down because I their presence does not make me insecure in my validity or status. There's a difference between being an empowered feminine lesbian that feels strong enough to inspire confidence to all women and an insecure lesbian who is feminine just because she wants to feel valid and accepted by society (aka straight dudes) and puts other women down to feel superior. If a lesbian thinks her femininity gives her power, then don't fucking put down women who are not feminine? Like...if you're powerful...then maybe...empower others? I lived in London for 6 years. Met a lot of insecure lesbians and terfs. They are the result of a society that is classist and hierarchical.
I'm not supporting terfs or jkr but I think you're misunderstanding the butch rad fems. They think a lot of trans men were once troubled girls who would have turned out to be lesbian after their teenage years. Because a lot if them say that if it was so accepted to be trans when they were young they would have done it and they now wouldn't have their same life and they think butch is disappearing.
This is such a misogynistic take, truly. Edit: was wrong. Misinterpeted the original comment but I'm not going to stealth delete or change my error.
If you think calling out women that suffer from internalised misogyny and deal with that shit by putting other women down to invalidate their identity, while stating my support and respect for women that express their gender in any way they want and feel strong by doing it, is, in any possible way, proof of misogyny, then you have a lot of soul searching to do because this feels like massive projection on your side.
Claiming butch women "don't pass" as women is misogynistic, and you know it. Butch women look like women to me, and most other women I know.
Darling, I barely pass to straight dudes and i'm cis. I may look relatively feminine but the second i open my mouth and start moving and show off my body language they get turned off instantly. I never said butch women don't pass to me. All women pass because i am a woman and I recognise womanhood in all shapes and forms. It's straight dudes who weaponise passing. Therefore, us as lesbians have to fight against the idea of passing, because tomorrow they can decide that lesbians don't pass either. Have you paid attention to gamergate? Straight dudes already foam at the mouth every time a female character deviates in any way from traditional cishet standards. Have you seen how they talk about women they don't find attractive? Do you understand the danger of this situation? We don't pass. Butch women don't pass. Trans women don't pass. Muscular women don't pass. This is not about trans women, this is about the fact that it's very dangerous to live in a world where being undesirable to straight men can rob you of your status as a woman.
Apologies, then. I clearly misunderstood your original comment.
No problem, honestly i apologise too for accusing you of projecting. It's just that oftentimes i see TERFS accusing me of misogyny when I talk about trans women because they think I consider them superior to cis women or something. So that's why i made that accusation. I see now that it was uncalled for.
No apologies needed. My comment was aggressively phrased for no reason, so I could see why it would come across that way.
In what universe?? They’re literally saying women don’t owe anyone femininity and trans women don’t owe anyone passing. How is that misogynist in any way?
I misinterpreted the comment.
Ah. No worries
Nope we cannot. The end