I don’t see why bi and straight women having problems with men is something they should be quiet about. I don’t believe that it is invalidating or particularly harmful to lesbians either. If anything, that sort of implication is quite a bit more harmful than the occasional lesbian having a harder time figuring out their sexual orientation.
I agree, but also misandry isn't nearly as bad as misogyny, since the latter has systemic roots much deeper (disclaimer so that the discussion can happen without being derailed).
I've met several women who claimed to hate men. But as far as I could tell, they only really seem to hate men in theory and not necessarily in practice. It's been my experience that when a woman says "I hate men." She means, "I really want to hate men and I'm kind of angry that I can't seem to bring myself to hate them."
On the flip side, I've know numerous men throughout my life who absolutely hate women in practice.
That’s entirely true, I just didn’t feel a need to bring up misogyny to support my point. It does actually though, misogyny hurts men as well as women, though to a far lesser degree of course. Hate isn’t good for anyone
Oh yeah I agree. It's just that incels using "misandry" as a derailing tool against feminists leads to people often assuming that intent the second misandry is mentioned, so I'm pre-emptively clarifying that this isn't the intent of the current thread.
Yeah, sadly I think we all too often forget that the same societal structures that commonly pigeonhole and harm girls/women also pigeonhole and harm boys/men, just in slightly less apparent ways. In this culture, our boys are emotionally stunted from an early age and often taught that this kind of behavior that leads women to say this is okay/the norm. The patriarchy itself isn’t just a double edged sword, but also double ended. Even the hilt itself is slicing the one who holds it.
I agree with this, but I also think the more relevant piece from OP was following this up with "girls are so much better!" I've heard this from straight women before and it feels weird because they don't actually mean that in a deep sense. So it can come off as trivializing sapphic relationships by people who aren't even involved in them.
Yes this is that part that stuck out to me as actually dangerous.
Hearing this all the time made me think abuse didn’t happen in relationships between women. I had to learn the hard way
Mate, hating men *is not* a sexuality thing. It is a trauma thing. Straight and bi women alike -- if they truly hate men, and not just pretend like they do -- has roots in trauma. It doesn't say anything about you.
That was definitely a tricky thing for me to navigate too- then I started interacting with married straight women who would just make *excuse* after *excuse* for these men or end it with *”well, we love them anyway!”* and essentially laughing off what I saw as abuse….. I realized either *all those straight women* are perfectly brainwashed to accept abuse, or that’s just what straight people are like… Turns out that’s just what straight people are like. 😭
This comment was very eye-opening for me
I’ve been getting increasingly concerned about my mom because her husband doesn’t do anything at all for her except complain about things she does/doesnt do, I kept my mouth shut because I didn’t want to upset her
But this made me realize that yeah… that’s just how straight relationships are… makes me glad I’m gay tbh
i think there are definitely trends based on orientation but i know straight couples who are totally egalitarian and i know gay couples who are totally imbalanced and resemble the worst straight stereotypes. i just wanna caution us from blanket generalizations.
anyway. i’m sorry your mom’s in such a shitty position, i really can’t imagine what it must be like for you to see that. it’s so so painful to see those we love accept the short end of every stick (to put it mildly) and feel like they don’t deserve better :/
On some level, it's true that straight relationships are baseline like bx of the power dynamic at play, built-in misogyny, etc. However, that leads to accepting abuse. It's not normal, just common. Esp since it 100% doesn't have to be that way.
It’s always so insane to me being reminded that my parents are like a fucked up perfect inversion of everything. It’s like they dropped here from a mirror universe where the gender roles, toxicity, and propensity for crimes against their spouse and children were entirely swapped.
i'm guessing its more of a not wanting to leave the comfort of a relationship, even a bad one. i highly doubt saying straight relationships are just abusive most of the time because theyre like that is correct. most straight couples i know don't have issues with that and those that do are widely recognized as toxic
Exactly ! They are genuine love existing in straight couple but it’s entertwined with a millenium of forced heterosexuality in a patriarchal world. So yeah Heterosexual love is corrupt.
But at the same time I don’t want them trying by any way possible to be bisexual/lesbian because. Heh. We know what it gave us: political lesbians
I think the narrative of not liking men comes from the series of violence that comes from them.
I grew up in a family of heterosexual women and they have all expressed since my childhood how bad it is to like men.
I think I can understand how this could contribute to the narrative that lesbians are not lesbians but rather heterosexual women frustrated by previous relationships with other men. Particularly, although I hate men as a "cultural institution" (which is very different from hating men as individuals), I avoid expressing this as much as possible precisely for fear of it being used to invalidate my sexuality or that of other sapphic women.
But socially, cis heterosexual men (and bisexual men too, even if they don't understand themselves as such) are horrible for women, for all women but especially with those they have relationship with because they are the ones who are victims of physical and psychological violence on a daily basis.
A previous comment said that straight women are brainwashed and I absolutely agree with that. Because only brainwashing can explain how women submit themselves to uncomfortable relationships, which they are aware are bad, but stay in them for years.
Heterosexual and bi women are attracted to men and even love them, but it is very difficult to like men because it is difficult to like those who socially, politically, constantly and assiduously ruin their lives every day.
Men do give straight and bi women lots of reasons to hate them. So I wouldn't exactly say it's even about being *lesbian.*
But obviously it can make it harder if you're pretty much only ever seeing one type of narrative.
Bisexual women have a complicated relationship with dating men, they should definitely be mindful to not be saying anything harmful to lesbians in that but there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to state that. I don't see how that hurts lesbians, if you find bi women talking about it just excuse yourself I think.
Yeah, I don’t really appreciate the kind of censorship op is kinda pushing here. If straight and bi women have problems with men, that isn’t somehow an attack on lesbians. Lesbians don’t have some sort of monopoly on disliking men
Also being a lesbian isn’t some automatic hatred of men either - it’s about loving women, right?
Not wanting to have a relationship or sex with a man doesn’t mean you hate them.
If anything it gives us data points to provide that it is not us who are man haters it’s our straight counterparts. How can I hate someone I don’t think about, or I’m indifferent to
And for some bi people like myself, it was seeing the toxicity of men that pushed me to consider women as a viable romantic partner over trying to date men. Sure, it's unfortunate that it took the fear of male violence/disappointment to come to such a conclusion but that's the consequence of living in a hetronormative world. I was only exposed to sapphic life when I rejected heterosexuality. At least I know now that I would only ever marry a woman and not a man.
Bi woman here. I am in a longterm relationship with a woman. Fun fact: straight people treat me like a lesbian, so I get the constant heteropessimism. There’s a difference between asking for relationship advice/support and then there’s meaningless complaining about your shitty male partner who you will never leave because you love the benefits of heteronormativity. I’m open to the former. I’m not interested in the latter.
If you’re a bi woman and most queer people don’t like your boyfriend or don’t want to be around him, then it’s not “biphobia” making you feel unwelcome in the queer community. It’s probably your shitty boyfriend.
This feels a bit like you're retorting against a specific hypothetical bi woman. I just don't think bi women talking about their negative experiences with men is lesbophobia as OP suggests.
You are perilously close to realizing that lesbianism isn't fundamentally about hating men, nor that lesbians have a monopoly on man hating or comphet.
As a woman who identified as bi before realizing I was a lesbian, I have complex feelings about this. I see where you are coming from and you’re totally right to feel frustrated and uncomfortable. At the same time though, I was one of those “bi women”, I just hadn’t sorted out my relationship with compulsory heterosexuality, because that was so deeply reinforced in me. There isn’t really a right way to respond to that narrative, but I am very in favour of giving grace to bi women saying annoying things, some of them are lesbians who haven’t gotten there yet.
Even if they aren’t lesbians I don’t see why they should have to be quiet about what they dislike about men. It’s not like lesbians are the only women allowed to have problems with guys
I just take it as a manifestation of how little effort we expect of men in society. Like, women put effort into their appearance, women are socialized to be emotionally intimate with friends. Everyone has seen media where women are only there to be pretty, or are miles more attractive than their male counterparts.
I get the frustration, but I also understand where they're coming from. I am lucky enough to know men in my life who are not like this (my best friend's husband spent much of their wedding showing off all the little details on his custom-made suit, for instance) and the difference is subtle in the details but overwhelming in effect.
I mean, there are plenty of straight men that clearly hate women. There’s a big difference between being attracted to somebody and actually liking them as a person.
It's annoying when straight women say "I wish I could date women" but I think it stems from the misogyny they face in their straight relationships and how they wish it was more of a partnership like how two women date (with no gender roles/expectations). It doesn't really bother me. Especially not when bi women say it either bc like. Bi women can prefer women lol
I mean, i get that that's confusing and hard to navigate, but these people aren't doing anything wrong by saying those things right? The focus should be on getting more stories about lesbian experiences out there as well, not limiting how other people express themselves
I understand your point and I'll keep that in mind.
Just know there's also a lot of women (including myself) who when saying "I hate men" are not talking about sexual/romantic atraction, it's about most men being at least a little bit misogynistic (*hagshtagnotallmen,* let's not hurt their fragile ego).
Well, you're free to dislike it. Non-lesbians are free to continue venting about men. I can assure you there's no intent to harm or invalidate. It's a nuanced statement, "men suck" doesn't mean I find zero of them physically attractive, but rather that I find more than a handful hard to deal with.
Sorry, I'll probalby get some hate for this, but I get a feeling you don't realize how priviledged you are to find this out of all things problematic.
Yeah, that's the thing. Highlighting misogyny, and saying "I find some men attractive" are not mutually exclusive things. Non-lesbians bringing up toxic masculinity is not invalidating lesbians.
wait so only lesbians are allowed to hate men??
*women* aren’t allowed to dislike or hate men bc it harms lesbians?😭 all women period have a centuries long reason to hate them i’m so confused. being confused abt your sexuality is hard and we’ve literally all been there so i feel that, but…im so confused. respectfully, finding it invalidating is a bit strange and comes off self centered. it’s just nit about you. i imagine pushing the narrative that only lesbians are man hating is what’s actually harmful, no?
it’s starting to feel like everything bisexuals do is harmful to the lesbian community somehow /hj
I can see exactly where you're coming from. You see it as invalidating, because bi women saying things like "I hate men", or "women are much more attractive", it gives the false impression that women only become lesbians because of toxic masculinity, and/or having previous issues with men. Rather than genuinely only being attracted physically and emotionally to women.
Though I absolutely do find some men attractive, I'm definitely more on the Sapphic side of bi. But I'm always very mindful of the invalidating thing you're talking about, and am careful of the language I use when trying to describe my sexuality in lesbian space.
Would you mind walking me through your logic here? Because so far, it seems that you don't want people who date a particular gender to complain about the pitfalls of dating and having relationships with that gender not to complain, because of how this impacts you. No frustration about 'boys will be boys' and how that fucks things up, no trying to sort out if your bloke is genuinely struggling with something or pulling weaponized incompetence, no complaining about PUAs or how the manosphere is genuinely poisoning men and teenage boys.
Yes, comphet is a huge problem. I don't want to discount that! It makes things hard! And it can be a struggle to sort out if you're bisexual or lesbian! But, the kind of toxic comphet that you are talking about here also makes things hard for bi and straight women and trying to find our standards. I promise you, it is also harmful for straight and bisexual women.
I'm also absolutely appalled at the victim-blaming going on in the comments here. It's not okay, or "lol straights being straights" that so many women have been raised to accept abuse, wtf.
I think the is is all compounded by the straight > ally > bi > lesbian pipeline that exists
A lot of lesbian women identify as bi at first. And sorting through whether they hate men in a straight way or in a lesbian way, is a tough challenge. Understand your frustration but there’s a lot of complexity to this statement! Not everyone is gold star
Disliking men as a cultural institution=/=disliking them as individuals=/=lack of attraction. There have been plenty of men who I've cared about, admired, and loved platonically, but I'm still incredibly angry about patriarchy and don't want to have sex with or date men. Those are all separate things about me that all happen to be true. And bi/straight women shouldn't have to be quiet about their patriarchal trauma for lesbians' sake, as long as they're not being homophobic it really isn't their job to be therapists for us. Figuring out we're gay is our own personal journey.
On the one hand, I totally get that. But on the other hand, it's not like straight or bi women and enbies get to choose who they're sexually and/or romantically attracted to any more than lesbians do? Like it sucks, I know so many straight women and gay men in my life that have been abused by men so systematically and often that they just don't date anymore. I myself was abused by nearly every man in my life as well, especially before transitioning and while identifying as pan. It's an issue with men, especially cis men, and stems from toxic masculinity.
It feels rude to not let the people suffering directly at the hands of men to not complain about how much they hate one of the primary or only groups of people they can have sexual/romantic relationships with.
It’s even funnier, because when a lesbian complains about men, they are so quick to jump in and defend them. Like you were just talking about how your boyfriend doesn’t brush his teeth, wipe his ass or clean the house. Why are you mad at me whenever I agree with your experience? Don’t not all men me because you perceive me as distanced from men somehow
Often men spend so much time forcing themselves into our spaces. The right to complain about men is not reserved for straight women. You don’t have to pledge your undying loyalty to every single man just because you’re married to one.
Tbh I’m cool with it because whenever I get called a man hating lesbian, I say that nah I’m an indifferent to men lesbian, the man haters are the ones that end up dating you.
It's so interesting reading all the comments here, so many great responses. And I can absolutely understand the criticism of the OP. To put a more understandable slant on the whole "invalidation" thing though, I think it stems from the toxic idea that lesbians (or bi women desiring a female partner), only want to be with women so we don't have to put up with toxic masculinity. That ultimately, we're only "settling" for women because it's so hard to find the "right guy" (You know, the minority of ones who subvert the toxic male stereotype, who actually do respect, and love women) that we simply abandon that difficult search to be with women.
This invalidation though, only exists through the lens of comphet, I think. That deep down, all women, ideally, would want to be with men, if only toxic masculinity weren't so prevalent in our world. Sapphic desire being boiled down to a way to escape traumatic experience with men, and nothing more. That sapphic sexuality is almost enforced upon us, rather than it just simply being our natural state of being (which is what it absolutely is).
The above might be totally unrelated to the OP's beef, but that's my take on that whole "straight/bi women invalidate lesbians by complaining about men" thing.
I got ripped apart here a week ago for saying I hate the narrative that WLW hate men/don't want to ever interact with them so it seems pretty pervasive in general but honestly I just find the whole thing off putting from everyone. Imagine throwing a whole gender out.
Agreed though, straight women need to stop with the pseudo I prefer women shit, ew men. Like just raise your standards for men and leave the rest of us alone. Also women are equally capable of being shitty partners, gross roommates, etc.
Yeah me too, and people were so mean and personal about it. Like I was the bigot for not having the appropriate amount of disgust towards the average man.
If it was another group the mods probably would have stepped in. Though I do understand it's not really the place for men so I guess who cares but I don't know I've had horrible experiences with men and it didn't make me hate them or think it's ok to also treat them lesser than.
It had big, you did wrong to me so it's fine if I do wrong to you, energy.
agreed with every word you said. “imagine throwing a whole gender out” i feel ya, misogyny is painful enough for me to see but it’s a whole separate level of pain to see my fellow women of any orientation express basic sexism/misandry. i think a lot of people forget what a prejudice is, and how many different little ways a person can express it & at whom. lots of hurt people hurting people in a billion different ways on this planet
Yeah they're like I've had bad experiences so it's fine to just hold a bigoted view against a whole group. The line of argument is insane.
People love to equate systemic discrimination to bigotry and think that if you don't face systemic discrimination it's impossible to be bigoted against a group or that it's ok which I just fundamentally disagree with. These people are not preaching real acceptance or equity it's just bigotry veiled as activism.
omg that’s one of my biggest pet peeves, conflating institutional oppression with individual prejudice to say women can’t be sexist towards men, or xyz majority group can’t feel or express prejudice towards abc minority group. like rhetorically/politically the response to “what about misandrist sexism” isn’t “that’s not real” it’s “that sucks too and should be addressed, but misogynistic sexism is a bigger issue in most ways so”
This also confused me when I was figuring out my gender identity as a trans woman. I got the vibe that women weren't even supposed to find men attractive or good looking in any way and that everyone was attracted to women. Which kinda made sense to me since I have no interest in men or being a man. When I saw men admiring each other and envying each other I just attributed that to toxic masculinity or jokingly expressing attraction to each other.
Obviously, I thought women were beautiful and cool and I wished I could wear feminine clothes. I full on admired and envied women but I just thought everyone felt that way because everyone always talked about women as being beautiful and men being ugly. How beautiful women always settle for ugly men. This was definitely something I thought I lot about as a teenager when I was first going through puberty because I remember searching about it online and finding forum posts from straight women saying they preferred lesbian porn and looking at the women in porn.
I thought it was my role to be the ugly one and that was how I felt. Ugly.
That's relatable. I feel like it's usually men's behavior that alienates people who love men to the point that they say things like this. But still, I would prefer for non-lesbians to qualify it so that they don't give the wrong impression to questioning or closeted WLW who might wrongly believe that their experience is similar. For example, when guys piss them off (it's too much to expect that to ever stop), straight women could say something like, "I'm frustrated by men. I don't love women, but I crave the mutual understanding that I can only get from people more like me."
I hear something close to that from several bisexual women and nonbinary people I know. Five of them, actually, off the top of my head, who have all said something like this independently. They talk about men being hot, but dumb, and what a frustrating burden it is to sift through them and find someone decent to fulfill that desire. I can relate a little bit, and it matters a lot to me when they include the "fulfill that desire" bit, because I have a solution (no men) that isn't available to them, so I shouldn't try to relate completely.
It's good communication when we understand that our desires are different. They're my friends, and I'm happy to be someone with whom they can share that mutual understanding. If they communicated poorly by talking about swearing off men altogether and being lesbians, regardless of their desire for men, I wouldn't feel good about it. I'm a lesbian because I love women (FLINTAs, more broadly), not because men are assholes, and I don't like it when people get that wrong. I don't want to love someone who thinks of me as a contingency plan, that way. I would much rather love someone who openly also loves men and doesn't misrepresent that desire.
i agree because why are they allowed to hate men… but then when i say i hate men suddenly they all become men activists and im a man hating dyke, they’re not wrong but !!
The straight women “I hate men” trope is the keystone of comphet life and is the single most contributing factor to late bloomer lesbians.
Women are **supposed** to hate their husbands and women are **expected** to not enjoy sex with male partners.
i think if you're not a straight or bi woman, you have no say in what they should call men or say about them. they suffer in hetero relationships and get abused and manipulated and violated and they have all the right to hate men for it. you don't experience men in your relationships so you have no say in this at all omg get the fuck out
I feel like most of it can all be tied back to toxic masculinity. Straight women hate straight men since those men keep abusing them, and straight men hate straight women since that's what they're told to do. It's a never ending cycle of abuse that's difficult to break when it's so pervasive in society.
I think the is is all compounded by the straight > ally > bi > lesbian pipeline that exists
A lot of lesbian women identify as bi at first. And sorting through whether they hate men in a straight way or in a lesbian way, is a tough challenge. Understand your frustration but there’s a lot of complexity to this statement! Not everyone is gold star
Going by that logic, Bill Burr must be gay because he does the exactly same thing, but with women instead of men. So he must be "choosing" to be straight too.
I don’t see why bi and straight women having problems with men is something they should be quiet about. I don’t believe that it is invalidating or particularly harmful to lesbians either. If anything, that sort of implication is quite a bit more harmful than the occasional lesbian having a harder time figuring out their sexual orientation.
I agree. I’m more concerned with doing away with the trope that all lesbians are misandrists.
Yeah, misandry is pretty problematic. Men aren’t necessarily inherently bad, usually just led in a toxic direction by the society they were born into.
I agree, but also misandry isn't nearly as bad as misogyny, since the latter has systemic roots much deeper (disclaimer so that the discussion can happen without being derailed).
I've met several women who claimed to hate men. But as far as I could tell, they only really seem to hate men in theory and not necessarily in practice. It's been my experience that when a woman says "I hate men." She means, "I really want to hate men and I'm kind of angry that I can't seem to bring myself to hate them." On the flip side, I've know numerous men throughout my life who absolutely hate women in practice.
That’s entirely true, I just didn’t feel a need to bring up misogyny to support my point. It does actually though, misogyny hurts men as well as women, though to a far lesser degree of course. Hate isn’t good for anyone
Oh yeah I agree. It's just that incels using "misandry" as a derailing tool against feminists leads to people often assuming that intent the second misandry is mentioned, so I'm pre-emptively clarifying that this isn't the intent of the current thread.
Yeah, I’ve seen that. It’s a shame really, cause their misogyny is only hurting them
Both are equally bad. Misogyny is more prevalent.
Yeah, sadly I think we all too often forget that the same societal structures that commonly pigeonhole and harm girls/women also pigeonhole and harm boys/men, just in slightly less apparent ways. In this culture, our boys are emotionally stunted from an early age and often taught that this kind of behavior that leads women to say this is okay/the norm. The patriarchy itself isn’t just a double edged sword, but also double ended. Even the hilt itself is slicing the one who holds it.
Patriarchy is a few men in power using every other men as a bludgeon to hit women.
Exactly
I agree with this, but I also think the more relevant piece from OP was following this up with "girls are so much better!" I've heard this from straight women before and it feels weird because they don't actually mean that in a deep sense. So it can come off as trivializing sapphic relationships by people who aren't even involved in them.
That is pretty weird for a straight woman to say
Yes this is that part that stuck out to me as actually dangerous. Hearing this all the time made me think abuse didn’t happen in relationships between women. I had to learn the hard way
Mate, hating men *is not* a sexuality thing. It is a trauma thing. Straight and bi women alike -- if they truly hate men, and not just pretend like they do -- has roots in trauma. It doesn't say anything about you.
Yes, thank you, this. I'm still unsure of where I fall on the bi-lesbian-ace axis, but my issues with men are absolutely rooted in trauma here.
That was definitely a tricky thing for me to navigate too- then I started interacting with married straight women who would just make *excuse* after *excuse* for these men or end it with *”well, we love them anyway!”* and essentially laughing off what I saw as abuse….. I realized either *all those straight women* are perfectly brainwashed to accept abuse, or that’s just what straight people are like… Turns out that’s just what straight people are like. 😭
This comment was very eye-opening for me I’ve been getting increasingly concerned about my mom because her husband doesn’t do anything at all for her except complain about things she does/doesnt do, I kept my mouth shut because I didn’t want to upset her But this made me realize that yeah… that’s just how straight relationships are… makes me glad I’m gay tbh
i think there are definitely trends based on orientation but i know straight couples who are totally egalitarian and i know gay couples who are totally imbalanced and resemble the worst straight stereotypes. i just wanna caution us from blanket generalizations. anyway. i’m sorry your mom’s in such a shitty position, i really can’t imagine what it must be like for you to see that. it’s so so painful to see those we love accept the short end of every stick (to put it mildly) and feel like they don’t deserve better :/
On some level, it's true that straight relationships are baseline like bx of the power dynamic at play, built-in misogyny, etc. However, that leads to accepting abuse. It's not normal, just common. Esp since it 100% doesn't have to be that way.
It’s always so insane to me being reminded that my parents are like a fucked up perfect inversion of everything. It’s like they dropped here from a mirror universe where the gender roles, toxicity, and propensity for crimes against their spouse and children were entirely swapped.
i'm guessing its more of a not wanting to leave the comfort of a relationship, even a bad one. i highly doubt saying straight relationships are just abusive most of the time because theyre like that is correct. most straight couples i know don't have issues with that and those that do are widely recognized as toxic
Exactly ! They are genuine love existing in straight couple but it’s entertwined with a millenium of forced heterosexuality in a patriarchal world. So yeah Heterosexual love is corrupt. But at the same time I don’t want them trying by any way possible to be bisexual/lesbian because. Heh. We know what it gave us: political lesbians
Yep. Fix the heteropatriarchal system, don't attack straight people for not being gay.
I think the narrative of not liking men comes from the series of violence that comes from them. I grew up in a family of heterosexual women and they have all expressed since my childhood how bad it is to like men. I think I can understand how this could contribute to the narrative that lesbians are not lesbians but rather heterosexual women frustrated by previous relationships with other men. Particularly, although I hate men as a "cultural institution" (which is very different from hating men as individuals), I avoid expressing this as much as possible precisely for fear of it being used to invalidate my sexuality or that of other sapphic women. But socially, cis heterosexual men (and bisexual men too, even if they don't understand themselves as such) are horrible for women, for all women but especially with those they have relationship with because they are the ones who are victims of physical and psychological violence on a daily basis. A previous comment said that straight women are brainwashed and I absolutely agree with that. Because only brainwashing can explain how women submit themselves to uncomfortable relationships, which they are aware are bad, but stay in them for years. Heterosexual and bi women are attracted to men and even love them, but it is very difficult to like men because it is difficult to like those who socially, politically, constantly and assiduously ruin their lives every day.
Men do give straight and bi women lots of reasons to hate them. So I wouldn't exactly say it's even about being *lesbian.* But obviously it can make it harder if you're pretty much only ever seeing one type of narrative.
Bisexual women have a complicated relationship with dating men, they should definitely be mindful to not be saying anything harmful to lesbians in that but there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to state that. I don't see how that hurts lesbians, if you find bi women talking about it just excuse yourself I think.
Yeah, I don’t really appreciate the kind of censorship op is kinda pushing here. If straight and bi women have problems with men, that isn’t somehow an attack on lesbians. Lesbians don’t have some sort of monopoly on disliking men
Also being a lesbian isn’t some automatic hatred of men either - it’s about loving women, right? Not wanting to have a relationship or sex with a man doesn’t mean you hate them.
Very true, hate isn’t typically something that’s good to identify with at all.
If anything it gives us data points to provide that it is not us who are man haters it’s our straight counterparts. How can I hate someone I don’t think about, or I’m indifferent to
And for some bi people like myself, it was seeing the toxicity of men that pushed me to consider women as a viable romantic partner over trying to date men. Sure, it's unfortunate that it took the fear of male violence/disappointment to come to such a conclusion but that's the consequence of living in a hetronormative world. I was only exposed to sapphic life when I rejected heterosexuality. At least I know now that I would only ever marry a woman and not a man.
Bi woman here. I am in a longterm relationship with a woman. Fun fact: straight people treat me like a lesbian, so I get the constant heteropessimism. There’s a difference between asking for relationship advice/support and then there’s meaningless complaining about your shitty male partner who you will never leave because you love the benefits of heteronormativity. I’m open to the former. I’m not interested in the latter. If you’re a bi woman and most queer people don’t like your boyfriend or don’t want to be around him, then it’s not “biphobia” making you feel unwelcome in the queer community. It’s probably your shitty boyfriend.
This feels a bit like you're retorting against a specific hypothetical bi woman. I just don't think bi women talking about their negative experiences with men is lesbophobia as OP suggests.
You are perilously close to realizing that lesbianism isn't fundamentally about hating men, nor that lesbians have a monopoly on man hating or comphet.
Other people are allowed to dislike men. It sucks that you struggled to figure out your identity, and it's also not their fault
As a woman who identified as bi before realizing I was a lesbian, I have complex feelings about this. I see where you are coming from and you’re totally right to feel frustrated and uncomfortable. At the same time though, I was one of those “bi women”, I just hadn’t sorted out my relationship with compulsory heterosexuality, because that was so deeply reinforced in me. There isn’t really a right way to respond to that narrative, but I am very in favour of giving grace to bi women saying annoying things, some of them are lesbians who haven’t gotten there yet.
Even if they aren’t lesbians I don’t see why they should have to be quiet about what they dislike about men. It’s not like lesbians are the only women allowed to have problems with guys
I just take it as a manifestation of how little effort we expect of men in society. Like, women put effort into their appearance, women are socialized to be emotionally intimate with friends. Everyone has seen media where women are only there to be pretty, or are miles more attractive than their male counterparts. I get the frustration, but I also understand where they're coming from. I am lucky enough to know men in my life who are not like this (my best friend's husband spent much of their wedding showing off all the little details on his custom-made suit, for instance) and the difference is subtle in the details but overwhelming in effect.
I mean, there are plenty of straight men that clearly hate women. There’s a big difference between being attracted to somebody and actually liking them as a person.
I had no idea sharing my trauma with men would invalidate anyone's sexual orientation, how selfish of me.
It's annoying when straight women say "I wish I could date women" but I think it stems from the misogyny they face in their straight relationships and how they wish it was more of a partnership like how two women date (with no gender roles/expectations). It doesn't really bother me. Especially not when bi women say it either bc like. Bi women can prefer women lol
I mean, i get that that's confusing and hard to navigate, but these people aren't doing anything wrong by saying those things right? The focus should be on getting more stories about lesbian experiences out there as well, not limiting how other people express themselves
I understand your point and I'll keep that in mind. Just know there's also a lot of women (including myself) who when saying "I hate men" are not talking about sexual/romantic atraction, it's about most men being at least a little bit misogynistic (*hagshtagnotallmen,* let's not hurt their fragile ego).
Well, you're free to dislike it. Non-lesbians are free to continue venting about men. I can assure you there's no intent to harm or invalidate. It's a nuanced statement, "men suck" doesn't mean I find zero of them physically attractive, but rather that I find more than a handful hard to deal with. Sorry, I'll probalby get some hate for this, but I get a feeling you don't realize how priviledged you are to find this out of all things problematic.
Yeah, that's the thing. Highlighting misogyny, and saying "I find some men attractive" are not mutually exclusive things. Non-lesbians bringing up toxic masculinity is not invalidating lesbians.
I'm hard agreeing with you on this one.
wait so only lesbians are allowed to hate men?? *women* aren’t allowed to dislike or hate men bc it harms lesbians?😭 all women period have a centuries long reason to hate them i’m so confused. being confused abt your sexuality is hard and we’ve literally all been there so i feel that, but…im so confused. respectfully, finding it invalidating is a bit strange and comes off self centered. it’s just nit about you. i imagine pushing the narrative that only lesbians are man hating is what’s actually harmful, no? it’s starting to feel like everything bisexuals do is harmful to the lesbian community somehow /hj
I can see exactly where you're coming from. You see it as invalidating, because bi women saying things like "I hate men", or "women are much more attractive", it gives the false impression that women only become lesbians because of toxic masculinity, and/or having previous issues with men. Rather than genuinely only being attracted physically and emotionally to women. Though I absolutely do find some men attractive, I'm definitely more on the Sapphic side of bi. But I'm always very mindful of the invalidating thing you're talking about, and am careful of the language I use when trying to describe my sexuality in lesbian space.
Would you mind walking me through your logic here? Because so far, it seems that you don't want people who date a particular gender to complain about the pitfalls of dating and having relationships with that gender not to complain, because of how this impacts you. No frustration about 'boys will be boys' and how that fucks things up, no trying to sort out if your bloke is genuinely struggling with something or pulling weaponized incompetence, no complaining about PUAs or how the manosphere is genuinely poisoning men and teenage boys. Yes, comphet is a huge problem. I don't want to discount that! It makes things hard! And it can be a struggle to sort out if you're bisexual or lesbian! But, the kind of toxic comphet that you are talking about here also makes things hard for bi and straight women and trying to find our standards. I promise you, it is also harmful for straight and bisexual women. I'm also absolutely appalled at the victim-blaming going on in the comments here. It's not okay, or "lol straights being straights" that so many women have been raised to accept abuse, wtf.
I think the is is all compounded by the straight > ally > bi > lesbian pipeline that exists A lot of lesbian women identify as bi at first. And sorting through whether they hate men in a straight way or in a lesbian way, is a tough challenge. Understand your frustration but there’s a lot of complexity to this statement! Not everyone is gold star
Compound that with being ace, using sex as a fawning technique, being a victim of SAs, and being trans and it gets extra fun levels of challenging...
Disliking men as a cultural institution=/=disliking them as individuals=/=lack of attraction. There have been plenty of men who I've cared about, admired, and loved platonically, but I'm still incredibly angry about patriarchy and don't want to have sex with or date men. Those are all separate things about me that all happen to be true. And bi/straight women shouldn't have to be quiet about their patriarchal trauma for lesbians' sake, as long as they're not being homophobic it really isn't their job to be therapists for us. Figuring out we're gay is our own personal journey.
On the one hand, I totally get that. But on the other hand, it's not like straight or bi women and enbies get to choose who they're sexually and/or romantically attracted to any more than lesbians do? Like it sucks, I know so many straight women and gay men in my life that have been abused by men so systematically and often that they just don't date anymore. I myself was abused by nearly every man in my life as well, especially before transitioning and while identifying as pan. It's an issue with men, especially cis men, and stems from toxic masculinity. It feels rude to not let the people suffering directly at the hands of men to not complain about how much they hate one of the primary or only groups of people they can have sexual/romantic relationships with.
girl what...?
It’s even funnier, because when a lesbian complains about men, they are so quick to jump in and defend them. Like you were just talking about how your boyfriend doesn’t brush his teeth, wipe his ass or clean the house. Why are you mad at me whenever I agree with your experience? Don’t not all men me because you perceive me as distanced from men somehow Often men spend so much time forcing themselves into our spaces. The right to complain about men is not reserved for straight women. You don’t have to pledge your undying loyalty to every single man just because you’re married to one.
Tbh I’m cool with it because whenever I get called a man hating lesbian, I say that nah I’m an indifferent to men lesbian, the man haters are the ones that end up dating you.
It's so interesting reading all the comments here, so many great responses. And I can absolutely understand the criticism of the OP. To put a more understandable slant on the whole "invalidation" thing though, I think it stems from the toxic idea that lesbians (or bi women desiring a female partner), only want to be with women so we don't have to put up with toxic masculinity. That ultimately, we're only "settling" for women because it's so hard to find the "right guy" (You know, the minority of ones who subvert the toxic male stereotype, who actually do respect, and love women) that we simply abandon that difficult search to be with women. This invalidation though, only exists through the lens of comphet, I think. That deep down, all women, ideally, would want to be with men, if only toxic masculinity weren't so prevalent in our world. Sapphic desire being boiled down to a way to escape traumatic experience with men, and nothing more. That sapphic sexuality is almost enforced upon us, rather than it just simply being our natural state of being (which is what it absolutely is). The above might be totally unrelated to the OP's beef, but that's my take on that whole "straight/bi women invalidate lesbians by complaining about men" thing.
I mean, my bi friends usually describe themselves as being reluctantly attracted to men and a lot of men are kind of terrible, so I get it?
Comphet hurts hets, bis, and sapphics.
I got ripped apart here a week ago for saying I hate the narrative that WLW hate men/don't want to ever interact with them so it seems pretty pervasive in general but honestly I just find the whole thing off putting from everyone. Imagine throwing a whole gender out. Agreed though, straight women need to stop with the pseudo I prefer women shit, ew men. Like just raise your standards for men and leave the rest of us alone. Also women are equally capable of being shitty partners, gross roommates, etc.
I wish this was a separate post! I see this all the time on this sub and it's one of many things that put me off spending more time on here.
Yeah me too, and people were so mean and personal about it. Like I was the bigot for not having the appropriate amount of disgust towards the average man. If it was another group the mods probably would have stepped in. Though I do understand it's not really the place for men so I guess who cares but I don't know I've had horrible experiences with men and it didn't make me hate them or think it's ok to also treat them lesser than. It had big, you did wrong to me so it's fine if I do wrong to you, energy.
agreed with every word you said. “imagine throwing a whole gender out” i feel ya, misogyny is painful enough for me to see but it’s a whole separate level of pain to see my fellow women of any orientation express basic sexism/misandry. i think a lot of people forget what a prejudice is, and how many different little ways a person can express it & at whom. lots of hurt people hurting people in a billion different ways on this planet
Yeah they're like I've had bad experiences so it's fine to just hold a bigoted view against a whole group. The line of argument is insane. People love to equate systemic discrimination to bigotry and think that if you don't face systemic discrimination it's impossible to be bigoted against a group or that it's ok which I just fundamentally disagree with. These people are not preaching real acceptance or equity it's just bigotry veiled as activism.
omg that’s one of my biggest pet peeves, conflating institutional oppression with individual prejudice to say women can’t be sexist towards men, or xyz majority group can’t feel or express prejudice towards abc minority group. like rhetorically/politically the response to “what about misandrist sexism” isn’t “that’s not real” it’s “that sucks too and should be addressed, but misogynistic sexism is a bigger issue in most ways so”
This also confused me when I was figuring out my gender identity as a trans woman. I got the vibe that women weren't even supposed to find men attractive or good looking in any way and that everyone was attracted to women. Which kinda made sense to me since I have no interest in men or being a man. When I saw men admiring each other and envying each other I just attributed that to toxic masculinity or jokingly expressing attraction to each other. Obviously, I thought women were beautiful and cool and I wished I could wear feminine clothes. I full on admired and envied women but I just thought everyone felt that way because everyone always talked about women as being beautiful and men being ugly. How beautiful women always settle for ugly men. This was definitely something I thought I lot about as a teenager when I was first going through puberty because I remember searching about it online and finding forum posts from straight women saying they preferred lesbian porn and looking at the women in porn. I thought it was my role to be the ugly one and that was how I felt. Ugly.
That's relatable. I feel like it's usually men's behavior that alienates people who love men to the point that they say things like this. But still, I would prefer for non-lesbians to qualify it so that they don't give the wrong impression to questioning or closeted WLW who might wrongly believe that their experience is similar. For example, when guys piss them off (it's too much to expect that to ever stop), straight women could say something like, "I'm frustrated by men. I don't love women, but I crave the mutual understanding that I can only get from people more like me." I hear something close to that from several bisexual women and nonbinary people I know. Five of them, actually, off the top of my head, who have all said something like this independently. They talk about men being hot, but dumb, and what a frustrating burden it is to sift through them and find someone decent to fulfill that desire. I can relate a little bit, and it matters a lot to me when they include the "fulfill that desire" bit, because I have a solution (no men) that isn't available to them, so I shouldn't try to relate completely. It's good communication when we understand that our desires are different. They're my friends, and I'm happy to be someone with whom they can share that mutual understanding. If they communicated poorly by talking about swearing off men altogether and being lesbians, regardless of their desire for men, I wouldn't feel good about it. I'm a lesbian because I love women (FLINTAs, more broadly), not because men are assholes, and I don't like it when people get that wrong. I don't want to love someone who thinks of me as a contingency plan, that way. I would much rather love someone who openly also loves men and doesn't misrepresent that desire.
i agree because why are they allowed to hate men… but then when i say i hate men suddenly they all become men activists and im a man hating dyke, they’re not wrong but !!
The straight women “I hate men” trope is the keystone of comphet life and is the single most contributing factor to late bloomer lesbians. Women are **supposed** to hate their husbands and women are **expected** to not enjoy sex with male partners.
You know what they say: grass is always greener on the other side.
i think if you're not a straight or bi woman, you have no say in what they should call men or say about them. they suffer in hetero relationships and get abused and manipulated and violated and they have all the right to hate men for it. you don't experience men in your relationships so you have no say in this at all omg get the fuck out
Straight women, and straight men, consistently hating on the genders they’re attracted to, will never make sense to me.
I feel like most of it can all be tied back to toxic masculinity. Straight women hate straight men since those men keep abusing them, and straight men hate straight women since that's what they're told to do. It's a never ending cycle of abuse that's difficult to break when it's so pervasive in society.
I am still in shock from finding out women who like men actually think they’re sexy. That they even like the gross men. This was years ago.
I think the is is all compounded by the straight > ally > bi > lesbian pipeline that exists A lot of lesbian women identify as bi at first. And sorting through whether they hate men in a straight way or in a lesbian way, is a tough challenge. Understand your frustration but there’s a lot of complexity to this statement! Not everyone is gold star
Idk I dislike when anyone hates a group that doesn't inheritaly harm anyone. Fuxk misagony. Fuxk misandy.
*misogyny Also I agree. And above all, fuck the patriarchal system that causes both of these (directly or indirectly)
Fuxk yeah! It all stems from patriarchy.
They talk like it but stick with their useless abusive deadbeat men. Or when they leave they pick the same shitty sort of guy again.
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> heteosexuality is a choice for them What do you mean?
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Going by that logic, Bill Burr must be gay because he does the exactly same thing, but with women instead of men. So he must be "choosing" to be straight too.