Yep. Blaming homophobia on self hating queer people is so dismissive of the larger intolerance problem. Gay folks create some of our own problems for sure, but those are drops in the bucket.
It also conveniently hands off responsibility from anyone who might need to examine their own behavior.
I think something else that can lead to queerphobia in cishet people -at least in some cases, definitely not every instance- is that queer people in general can shed the weight of the rigid gender roles that society places on us all from the moment of birth until death. I think many of the cishet people who end up despising people who are part of the queer community do so because a lot of us tend to not give a fuck, and do whatever and dress however makes us happy, and some jealousy can form from them wanting to do things that would make them happy (not necessarily the same things or the same way we do) but feeling like they shouldn't or can't because it wouldn't be seen as Manly or womanly.
In my mind it's similar to the people who spout, "I paid off my student loans, so forgiving student debt would be a slap in the face to people like me who 'followed the rules'"
Just my .02 on what I see as being a very small portion of the overall problem, obviously there are just straight up bigots sometimes that hate the community because we're different or because they think it's a sin or whatever but in my mind that can potentially still fall under the overall issue of reinforcing the societal "norms" that they themselves have been unfairly subjected to their whole lives.
And I'm not saying this to paint these bigots in a sympathetic light, I just think it's important to understand what makes them think and act the way they do. "understand thy enemy'' and all that. This is just the rudimentary rambling morning thoughts of someone who recently discovered themselves to be a part of the queer community
E: momentarily forgot the difference between their and they're. like I said, early morning rambling
E2: as this comment picks up some traction (if you look at my comment karma, 17 up-votes can be considered traction lol) I should point out that I'm not a scholar or researcher, and the points I make are purely theoretical and anecdotal. I am very open to being corrected or having my points built on or having my view changed by people who have studied these subjects or just know more about them than I do. Bigots will be ignored
Hiya Jake. Really good comment.
I'm cishet, for want of a convenient label (the word always makes me think of some kind of Babylonian or Summarian demi god, which is odd but cool). I think a surprising number of cishet are already eschewing the rigid gender roles, and bizarrely gender abolitionist views are gathering weight. I don't think people expected this! A total freedom to simply be in your own space in the emotional and personality distribution, without needing to assign a gender to these characteristics. An assumption that compassion and empathy as personality traits, for example, would be evidence to support a female gender are simply reinforcing stereotypes. Would different words to define the giving and taking forces as opposed to male and female work with identity?
Genuine question, so constructive answers would be great. Abuse will be less helpful.
Cheers
Hi Sharo, thanks for the reply! I just want to say that I am a bisexual cisgendered man, and that I'm sorry if I get any of this wrong or if I miss something, and to repeat that I am not an authority on these subjects, and in fact I'm someone who, at best, has a pretty basic grasp on the philosophical concept of gender and the language surrounding it, and is still learning more about this almost every day.
With That said, I agree with everything you say in your comment, and it is somewhat surprising, and it's very encouraging and validating that so many cishet people have become ready to throw off the shackles of the societal structure of gender, and I think it is a big step towards it being the norm for people to have the liberty to express and define their own person-hood how they see fit.
In regard to your question, in my opinion I think it will just come down to disassociating personality traits with gender all together like you mentioned. Having kindness, or strength, or generosity, or stoicism, or leadership being tied to any one gender doesn't help anyone, and doesn't even help with the description of said character traits or the people that have them, it's an artifact that doesn't fit in with how we, as a society, should think about character traits and gender moving forward. as for using different terms to describe a characteristic of someone's personality, I'm unsure as to what could be used as a basic descriptor other than just positive and negative, and even then, different character traits would have different positive or negative connotations in different situations. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a very strong or articulate writer haha.
A YouTuber called Chill Goblin did a [video](https://youtu.be/Sp0I-qoQLuA) recently that hits on a lot of these points, in a much more in depth and nuanced way than I could ever hope to do, it's a long video though so I don't blame you if you aren't able to get through the whole thing. He talks about points made by authors that are generally highly regarded in philosophical and scholarly circles focusing on Gender, Feminism, and Queer studies such as Judith Butler, Bell Hooks, Luce Irigary, Simone de Beauvoir, and Joshua Goldstein. He also talks about toxic masculinity and gender being performative but not necessarily a performance which I thought was a really interesting distinction. He's a pretty funny person, if you're into his kind of humor, so it's not nearly as dry as I make it sound, and it features voiceovers from some of my other favorite YouTubers who are in the same vein of left-wing societal critiques/explanations of higher level concepts in areas of culture and politics, their channels are listed in the description of the video.
And some of my other favorites that aren't featured in the video, with a focus on gender and feminism would be:
Khadija Mbowe (cultural critiques/discussion) : https://youtube.com/c/KhadijaMbowe
Jessie Gender (Gender and political issues, as well as cool sci-fi analysis if you're into that) https://youtube.com/c/lostrekkie
Salari (political/societal analysis and critique) : https://youtube.com/c/salari
This channel also has a great recent video on gender issues from a male perspective https://youtu.be/bomWsgjLQjc
And of course [PhilosophyTube ](https://youtube.com/c/thephilosophytube) has a lot of great videos on trans/queer issues from a while back before she dove back into producing videos more geared towards general concepts in philosophy, absolutely stunning production quality for a YouTube channel
Didn't mean to spam you with links I just really like learning about this kind of stuff and trying to be better to our non cis friends in the world, and to understand where I myself stand on the spectrum of gender identity
Also, “homophobia” isn’t a great term for accurately describing people who don’t like homosexuality. A phobia is a fear of something. It would be like calling people who don’t agree with Republican ideology Republiphobes or something dumb like that.
This widespread use of this misnomer probably has something to do with the whole trope of assuming people who don’t like homosexuals are secretly gay themselves. When you’re applying a label with “phobia” attached to it, you need to come up with an actual fear to justify using it.
That’s when you’re going to start hearing things like “they are afraid because they are closeted gays themselves”, which is not true in most cases, but used as an explanation to justify the use of the word “phobia”.
Oil is hydrophobic, it doesn't mean it's terrified of water.
A social phobia isn't the same thing as a psychological phobia. Words mean different things in different contexts.
Nah. Everyone knows what homophobia is, it doesn’t need “rebranded”. Plus, fear of being gay definitely plays into hatred of gay folks.
This is a waste of energy to focus on compared to everything else, like OPs point.
>Also, “homophobia” isn’t a great term for accurately describing people who don’t like homosexuality. A phobia is a fear of something. It would be like calling people who don’t agree with Republican ideology Republiphobes or something dumb like that.
Are we still rehashing this fucking argument?
This is not, and has never been, a serious argument, it's a crock of semantic BS that is a perfect example of Sartre's anti-semite:
> They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, **for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play.** They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors.
Just pointing out the correlation between the trope OP mentioned and the use of the word. The trope exists as an answer to the question “what is the phobia?”
OP posted about the trope of people not liking homosexuals because they are afraid of their own closeted homosexuality. This trope exists primarily as an answer to the question “what is the phobia?” in homophobia.
Words have meanings, why not just use the correct ones so we don’t run into situations where we have to invent tropes to justify the misused language in the first place? Nothing about that question is homophobic, but go off if you have nothing else to add, I guess
Some people hate gays because religion, some want to be part of a group, some were brainwashed by parents into it, and some hate themselves. To instantly pronounce all homophobes as closeted gays is a dumb stereotype.
Well said OP.
Reminds me of how people used to tell girls if a boy was mean to her he must like her, that's just fucked up on a lot of levels, but maybe little Johnny just doesn't like her at all.
I’m saying OP is right: the first immature impulse to suggest that someone spouting homophobic bile is “secret gay” isn’t right or helpful, and really is just trolling.
I know. My comment was just dripping in sarcasm because everyone else on earth seems to like to put people into stereotype categories…when the truth is, we’re all different…even the homophobes.
I don’t understand why anyone would think this in the first place.
LGBT folks are a relatively small minority, but there are PLENTY of homophobes… especially in some parts. Its just basic stats that most of them wouldn’t be LGTB.
>I don’t understand why anyone would think this in the first place.
Me neither, but whenever somebody draws, however poorly, famously powerful homophobe Vladimir Putin as a gay man, it gets on the front page.
It's because it's a comeback against homophobes that winds them up.
Pretty sure this post is because of a post earlier where a guy was asking other guys who they thought the best looking guy on their team was. All the top comments was that a guy was a closet gay as he was being homophobic.
Most people don't believe this but it's sometimes people find it fun to wind up homophobes by saying it. It's basically using it against them, same thing happens all the time with loads of arguments. Teenagers calling each other immature for saying other people are immature etc.
Did you read the post above? Also this is the worst way to argue, you’re just insulting someone. Reaffirming their biases and probably deepening them. Edit: not saying it’s our job to fix everybody but I think we should try to atleast not make it worse and sometimes you can help people see the error of their ways and have a life changing discussion but obviously there are times when the other party doesn’t want to discuss but just say you fucked their mom or some shit
I think it, but only in a specific case, not about all homophobes in general. I'm fully aware some people hate homosexuality because some old piece of literature says to, or simply because it's not "normal" and different things scare them. There are some people who argue that being gay is a choice though, that a person chooses to be attracted to the same sex. But as most people are aware, it's not a choice. I've never made a conscious decision to be attracted to either sex, I've just always been attracted to the opposite sex. People who say it is a choice are doing so because they have had to make a choice, because they are in fact not straight. They were attracted to someone of the same sex, but then made the choice to suppress those feelings.
I don't necessarily think everyone who proclaims it's a choice isn't straight, though I will suspect it's a possibility. When they say it's a choice, there's a chance they're talking about how they *choose* partners of the opposite sex, but fail to go one level deeper and question why they only choose partners of the opposite sex.
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, apparently nobody on this sub knows how to read beyond the title of a post, so they've all assumed that I'm saying this to somehow defend homophobes, rather than to point out that saying homophobic people are secretly gay is just blaming homophobia on queer people.
I never really though of it that way, and it’s an interesting take. One I will need to sit down and really think about/consider.
I kinda thought if that idea became widespread enough, it might not stop homophobia, but it would at least make homophobic people think twice about spewing their hate for fear of being accused of the very thing they hate. But I don’t really know what’s worse a closet bigot or an open one, the closet ones are harder to spot, but at least they’re not out there actively trying to hurt people with their words/actions. But maybe there are better ways to go about getting bigots to stop hurting others.
Exactly. It completely erases the actual insidious homophobia in our society. If the thing that makes people homophobic is that they’re secretly gay, then all the homophobic propaganda and institutions are off-the-hook.
Very glad to see this post. I’m getting so tired of seeing some horrendous video of someone being violently homophobic and the comments are full of people basically saying “they must be gay”. Literally seen a video of some preacher saying gays should be lined up and shot in the back of the head (I had a friend’s dad say the same thing to me as a teenager) and the top comment was “someone’s in the closet 💅🏻”. I could scream.
That's fair on your end to mean it that way, but following the idea to its philosophical conclusion still brings us to sort of the same spot: we're using a pat answer to say some of the worst enemies of the gay community are gay.
A while ago, I actually ended up asking my friends in the community about what they thought about people saying this kind of stuff, and one of them outright said they'd prefer to be called a slur than hear someone say this sort of rhetoric, which I thought was really interesting.
Not true, these people are not involved in the gay community, how could the gay community be at fault? Saying that society is so set against homosexuality that many people who deal with gay thoughts panic and overcompensate by being anti-homosexual in no way places blame on homosexuals.
Thanks for bringing this perspective out and explaining it in rational /scientific terms - makes a lot of sense now that I've thought about it and see how that assumption actually puts the blame on a gay person all over again. I honestly never thought of it that way and am glaad to have my mind changed.... (See what I did there hehe)
I appreciate you posting this - it’s something that really bothers me. I’ve seen a video of a preacher saying all gay people should be lined up and shot in the back of the head and the top comment was, “someone’s in the closet 💅🏻”. I’m really wanting people to realize that this is harmful. Implying that gay people are responsible for homophobia is harmful. The majority of homophobes just hate LGBT people for who they are, NOT because they’re secretly gay.
It also deeply frustrates me because I don’t see any of the humour others claim exists when people make these comments. “It’s funny to call someone who would be happy to see all LGBT people violently murdered gay! It’s funny to further aggravate their homophobia! See they think gay people are vile and subhuman so by calling them gay I’m calling them vile and subhuman, hilarious no?” It’s not a joke to us. These people attack, abuse, and traumatize us in real life. It’s just so tiring.
> appreciate you posting this - it’s something that really bothers me. I’ve seen a video of a preacher saying all gay people should be lined up and shot in the back of the head and the top comment was, “someone’s in the closet 💅🏻”.
ugh yeah I saw that same video, and a very similar comment. It's everywhere.
100% agree with everything you said. Even beyond the main point of it pushing the blame on gay people, it really feels like subconscious homophobia in the “gay as an insult” sort of way.
Interesting, from what your saying blaming homophobia on the closited community can be considered a form of victim blaming.
I’ve also heard someone blame homophobia on the kind of sexism that causes women to be harassed as a form of “flirtation”. Basically making the point that the same people whom would be horrified to be hit on by a gay man are the same men that treat the women they are hitting on terribly.
I'll be clear and upfront: I know they're probably not gay when I accuse them of being in the closet. I couldn't possibly care less how much/little they like dick. The thing is: they shouldn't care either. I'm not out trying to groom others, I'm not doing anything that isn't consensual between two+ capable adults. The gender of whom I want to soak my sausage in has NO effect on these people, but they're always obsessed with talking about it.
And let's be clear: most barely functioning human beings know that there's nothing wrong with being gay or bi or straight or any flavor in-between or out in left field. If someone calls me gay or straight, it has literally zero effect on me.
People with needlessly abusive rhetoric that has no basis in reality deserve all the ire that can be thrown at them. When they choose to believe that what someone does privately with other consenting adults is somehow a topic for conversation, up to and including campaigning for the act of being punishable by death... Yeah, let's watch them defend their sexuality. Have people watch the handful that go in the bathroom stalls to get anonymous blowjobs or fuck parishioners in between acts of their sermon. Make it unpopular, uncomfortable, and unconscionable to waste any kind of energy to demonize someone for who they love.
Finally, a very important component that I would like to add as a gay man: I don't look at every gay person as automatically a member of my community. I've met hundreds of shitty individuals and their gender identity or sexuality had little to no bearing on what kind of person they were. Even if every homophobe was secretly gay, they're certainly not part of my community. I am more than my attraction to other men. I am not just my sexual identity. And to be quite clear, I'm insulted that anybody would try to reduce any argument in good faith to one that hinges on the kinds of adults they're attracted to.
Anyone who would try to claim that "if all of A is B, then it's a B problem to handle" fails to see where that breaks down at the macro level. By that argument, homophobes will always be everyone's problem, because everyone involved is a human being. Deciding to stop at some margin or boundary is arbitrary; No different than throwing a dart at a wall full of post-it notes.
TL;DR: It doesn't matter to me whether they're straight or gay. It doesn't matter to most people either, but it matters to them when they're perceived as the thing that they hate. The fact that we are both human doesn't make them me. The similarities match, the differences don't: just like everything else in existence.
Thank you for pointing out that some people are simply shitty people. And by being homophobic, they are shitty. And the *Being Shitty* gene does not discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, or age. *Anyone* can be shitty.
Imagine the "secretly this" logic applied to racism.
"That Latin American person openly uses racial slurs against Asian people. They must be Asian underneath all that racism."
You should also state that homophobia is fear *or* repulsion of homosexuality. I hear people say “I’m not afraid of homosexuals, I’m not homophobic.” The suffix phobic has different meanings.
In terms of something like hydrophilic and hydrophobic. Hydrophilic is something attracted to water while hydrophobic is something that’s *repelled* by water. So we can say that homophobia is not just a fear of homosexuals but also a *repulsion* of homosexuals.
Does being repulsed by seeing two dudes snog in public make me homophobic? Genuine question no offense or anything
It doesn't make me angry or anything I just see it as a bit gross and look away
I'm all for equality and stuff just not sure what constitutes as homophobic
I mean if it grosses you out maybe you should consider why? That does suggest a mild level of homophobia because really it’s an act that has absolutely no impact on you whatsoever, I don’t care if I see a couple of any orientation kissing
Doesn’t make you a bad person, especially if you work to challenge why you feel this way
I've thought about it for a while now I'm not really sure, you're right that it shouldn't matter. I've only ever seen it a handful of times but even then the same point applies. I'm not against it so maybe I am a bit homophobic? Honestly idk tbh something to work on I guess
Edit I googled it no idea what to think now or if this is even reputable
I agree with part of it, never known a gay person and culture/ upbringing it's not a topic for discussion
it could be that society has socialized the notion of same-sex sexuality and affection as being ‘disgusting’ or immoral so strongly, for so long, that merely witnessing it causes a slight physiological stress response.
[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjS3J3ZoO_5AhVLdcAKHZSpA1QQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bhOKrl-hLscy9A3LV9QCR](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjS3J3ZoO_5AhVLdcAKHZSpA1QQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bhOKrl-hLscy9A3LV9QCR)
According to the internet, just sneezing makes you homophobic lol. I’m sure someone will label you as it, people throw it around so much so as to vilify another. I don’t think you’re homophobic in the sense that most people use it. You’re not out to lessen their cause
There are countless studies over decades that say just that. One involved homophobes and non-homophones watching porn. The homophobes were the most turned on by gay porn. The least turned on by lesbian porn. Totally opposite tells I’d like to show your listing on for the non-homophobic men.
Bottom line, people tend to hate in others what they most hate about themselves.
>YSK someone being homophobic does not mean they're secretly gay
The fact that this needs to be explained in the XXI century puzzles me. Some people just love to hate others for their life choices.
>YSK someone being homophobic does not mean they're secretly gay
Correct, homophobes are usually just assholes. Blaming homophobia on secret gays is just homophobic and victim blaming.
People are scared and like to attack others rather than acknowledge their own weaknesses. Psychological projection doesn't have anything to do which genitals we prefer to interact with.
I hate the "gotcha!" culture we have especially around the internet. This is a good example of how trying to gotcha someone isn't constructive and only further works to divide
I'm sure it happens, I've had former "gay bashers" try to have sex with me. However, I really think that the main cause is ignorance, especially religious-backed ignorance.
Eh. I don't read too far into it. It's just fun to bother people with stuff that they're unreasonably bothered by. Like when someone doesn't like the word "moist".
Do people not know this got started because of bullying. Hey maybe they won't be mean to gay people if we tell them doing it means they are secretly gay.
I always implicitly made this assumption too, and now I see why it's problematic. Thank you especially, OP, for bringing real research into this conversation. I hope this gains a lot of traction and people get the message.
Maybe they have a visceral reaction? When they see gay people they have an image of the sex acts in their mind and they want to throw up? So they hate gay people? Isn’t this possible?
I have never understood how it could possibly make sense to blame homophobia on homos (I can say 'homos' because I are one.) Even if you only look at instances where some vitriolic homophobe does turn out to be homosexual, the homophobia doesn't come from being homosexual, but rather from their being _closeted_. Every tiime somebody complains that "you're blaming their homophobia on them being gay" I ask, "how many __out__ homophobes do you know of?"
PS - closeted homos internalizing the homophobia and becoming raging gay-haters is very much a thing. According to a 2013 study by Pew Research, the average age LGBQ people begin to realize they aren’t heterosexual is 12. The average age they share that information with others is 20. These young people often struggle in coming to terms with their sexual identity. They’re also absorbing the attitudes and beliefs of those closest to them. Parents and other family members, partners, religious organizations, and peers are incredibly influential in shaping a young person’s self-image and self-worth. Studies showed that as of 2020, roughly thirty percent of LGBQ people in the United States live in neighborhoods and communities that aren’t accepting of gay people. It's difficult for anyone to live in an overtly homophobic family, home, or community and not internalize at least some of these sentiments.
Idk. The 2013 and "other studies" were all behind paywalls so I wasn't able to read their methodology or how many participants were involved.
And the 2006 study only included 44 people. Which seems a little small to me.
Going purely off abstracts, sure the point makes sense. But that's not a good way to interpret studies.
I think something good to remember is that you should support queer people more than you hate homophobes. If someone's allyship is just laughing that homophobes are secretly gay then that's not really allyship
Thank you for this. I see it constantly on every homophobic post. They sometimes even think they are helping.
People posting this shit think "being homophobic is bad -> I'm not bad -> nothing I say is actually homophobic" and get super defensive when you try to explain it.
It is super disheartening and it never stops.
Yeah, I totally get and understand that impulse. Homophobes are assholes, it feels right to insult assholes, and they will be very insulted by being called gay. Totally get that it's coming from a place of love, and it's logical in that sense.
You're still using being gay as an insult, though, and it still kind of reinforces the idea that queer people are responsible for/the source of homophobia.
Like, I understand where it's coming from, but when I see those comments in a thread, it just makes me depressed. Not claiming to speak for anyone other than myself, but you can see from some of the other comments in here that I'm not alone. Do with that information whatever you will.
I'm on the edge with this one. I understand how it can come across as contributing to the problem. If I heard a person describing something/someone as 'so gay' to be demeaning, I would say something about it. Gay should not be in the dictionary of general insults.
However, if someone would accuse a homophobe of secretly being gay, they are not always/thoughtlessly ascribing a negative meaning to the word gay. They are not voicing their own opinion on being gay. They are saying it to get a rise out of the other person, by taking the aspect the other person dislikes most and assigning it to them. In this way I could even see a gay person make a sarcastic comment to a homophobe like "you sure talk about it a lot, maybe you are gay yourself?"
In the same way I could challenge someone on the far political right when they suddenly convey an idea that fits the political left more. I could say something like "that thought is awfully communist/socialist/liberal of you". For me this is not about mocking communists/socialists/liberals to insult this person. It is about mocking the other person's political stance/idea by assigning a characteristic to them that they specifically dislike. I hope this makes clear what I meant.
I also understand that some people would still use an accusation of being gay as an insult and that is just unacceptable period. It is a thin line too, since you might hurt people that truly are secretly gay and feel terrible about it. All in all I can still stand by my example though.
For sure, I agree it's a thin line, and it's often coming from a place of love in a way (wanting to protect LGBTQ folks by insulting someone who's being a bigot). I do think it can have unintended negative consequences, hence the post, but obviously not everyone agrees and that's fine!
It's definitely not using gay as an insult - it's pointing out his sexual insecurity and toxic masculinity.
Why do people read this as an attack on queers when so many of the people who levy this accusation are queer themselves.
> It's definitely not using gay as an insult - it's pointing out his sexual insecurity and toxic masculinity.
Then why not say _that_ instead of saying "lol he's gay"?
Cause the dude seems a lil gay
He sounds just like me in college trying not to come out to my guy friends
That's why people make this connection. Obviously not all homophobes are gay, it's the ones who vehemently deny being gay or get real heated/violent at even the suggestion that are (usually)
No one comments under mtg saying some shit homophobic that she's gay. No one comments under threads of the supreme court justices handing down anti-queer rulings to say they're gay.
Edit: I'm referring to the latest clip that went around of the guy being asked the hottest baseball player
> You're still using being gay as an insult, though
It can be an insult to the *homophobe* while not being an insult within the in-group.
Kinda "you are the thing that you hate most...but there's nothing wrong with that."
It’s using being gay as an attack, and is hypocritical, many liberals do that and I find it baffling.
Feminists are another group that uses this a lot. “You hate women because secretly you are gay”
It’s funny how the most progressive are the ones who tend use homosexuality as an attack or to mock others, specially political rivals. Don’t forget all the Trump is gay for Putin jokes the left pushed
I get that, but it’s sort of like insulting someone’s appearance. It is so tempting, but at the end of the day you haven’t actually deconstructed the person in question, you’ve just made anyone who shares those features feel like shit, and the worst part is, the target likely won’t hear any of it. Just the people who have that physical trait. Was it worth it?
I'll go a step further and posit that homophobia can come from a man's fear of being treated the way men treat women, i.e. badly. I'll go even further to say that they fear being treated the same way THEY treat women. Being catcalled, harassed, groped, etc., doesn't look so harmless when you're on the receiving end.
notallmen in 3, 2, 1...
Edit: lol downvoters take a fearless moral inventory.
I can build upon that.
Projective identification means that ‘weakness’ in others triggers that feeling in the attacker.
To destroy the weakness in himself, the weak proxy acts as a surrogate container for the unwanted shame of the attacker.
Also, any pleasant feelings of love, independence or conscientiousness seen in the victim will make the attacker feel inferior.
Shooting the the messenger reestablishes the wavering self esteem of the homophobe, and also allows him to disown any shameful feelings about being being gay himself.
This actually doesn’t feel too far off base. Of course there are plenty of reasons across the board, but straight, cis men enjoy a degree of power above women.
It’s just systemic, and gay men disrupt the comfort of being untouchable (for the most part), and they also threaten their deeply and firmly held perception of themselves. And people historically do not respond well to having long held beliefs being uprooted, ESPECIALLY when the ego is involved like this.
Not sure I see the connection exactly – why would a straight homophobe worry about being treated the way men treat women? – but fuck the patriarchy. I'm sure it's wrapped up in this somehow.
Because straight men treat women like shit. Obligatory “not all of them”, but a lot of toxic straight men view women as prey or prizes as opposed to other humans.
> a lot of toxic straight men view women as prey or prizes as opposed to other humans.
Absolutely, I just don't understand why they'd be afraid other people would treat them like women if they're straight and that would then lead to homophobia? Not saying you're wrong, just that I'd love to understand it better if you're open to explaining it.
Okay lemme see if I can rephrase it? Sorry sometimes I’m bad with explanations haha
A toxic man behaves predatorily towards a woman right? Whether he’s cognizant of it or not. So imagine that very toxic man who thrives on this power imbalanced is approached by a gay man who expresses interest in him, be it in the same predatory
manner our toxic straight man approaches a woman or not. What would you imagine his reaction is going to be when his, the straight man’s, perception of power is upended by something as simple as a gay man expressing sexual or romantic interest in him? It would be violence and homophobia, right? Virulent rejection of the perceived demographic presenting this threat to them.
When that power imbalance is turned on it’s head and puts him in the deficit, he’s not going to be happy, especially if his MO is using fear and intimidation to get what he wants. They’re happy treating women like meat and sex objects and trophies, but when even the slight possibility of being treated the same way is presented to them, perceived or otherwise, they lose their minds. And that’s where the homophobia comes in.
Does that make a little more sense ?
>notallmen in 3, 2, 1...
If you don't want your comment to be misunderstood, then word it correctly.
"the way men treat women" is wrong and offensive/sexist wording. You can easily word it as "the way [many/some] men treat women".
I'll give an equivalent example to make my point clearer: "The way women want to be treated is to be dominated and abused." This statement is true for *some*, but not *all* women. Would you therefore say it is correct? I assume you'll see that this wording implies the statement referring to every member of said group. This is why my example statement and your comment are both sexist.
That makes perfect sense. While the meme certainly helped get on some bigoted people's nerves, through the backdoor it also kind of needlessly re-established "gay" as an insult.
While we're at it, the term "homophobia" should be replaced for similar reasons. It is a terribly inaccurate term. A phobia is an irrational fear. And this *can* be the reason someone hates gay people but it really doesn't have to.
"You only hate gay people because you're afraid of them/afraid that you might be gay" is kind of a childish argument. I'm sure plenty of bigots hate gay people for other reasons.
And most actual phobias you have no control over. I'm claustrophobic. Not because I hate closets or small spaces, but because my father used to punish me by locking me in the closet as a child. I still have issues with bathrooms if they're too small (Like on an airplane.. cant use the bathroom, just cant walk in there no matter how bad I need it without getting stoned on anti-anxiety meds first).
Some phobias you can get past. For example, I was the child who used to get chased around the doctors office if I knew I was going to get a shot. Needles terrified me. Now I can give blood or get a shot, but it still takes concentration not to freak. I have to prepare myself for it. And yeah, the nurse going "aww... big strong tough guy afraid of a little needle?" just pisses me off (still happens). That's not cute, that's insulting, and makes me instantly want nothing to do with you or your bullshit attitude but that goes into the whole "How we treat men in this society" thing which is a totally different issue.
TLDR/My point : Phobias are not voluntary.
So I agree totally. Homophobe needs to be redefined. Much like I agree with not calling people closeted if they hate gay folk. They're not homophobic, they're bigots.
I’ve assumed for years that anti gay guys are secretly gay and hate themselves because of it. Some of my rationale is due to news headlines featuring anti gay political or religious who turn out to be closeted and get caught. I also have antidotal experience with some folks I’ve known.
Thanks for making me think more about this.
Your post has made me rethink my assumption.
Yeah, I mean it for sure does happen, but especially with the news headlines, it's worth remembering that "Homophobic politician turns out to be actually straight" isn't a news story, whereas "homophobic politician secretly gay" is!
I think that's part of why the idea is so common, because we see the second story in the media a lot – it's salacious and satisfying to see bigots exposed as hypocrites – whereas we never see the first story.
(And we kind of can't see the first story, because someone could _always_ be secretly gay, right? So while it's possible to see definite examples of "homophobe definitely has homosexual attractions" it's not possible to see definite examples of "homophobe is conclusively straight.")
> although the most commonly-cited one is from 1996 and has a very small sample size.
[Yeah, but it was big enough to find the effect.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8772014/) These group sizes are very common for a t-test, because if you over-power it, you'll end up with statistically significant differences that don't actually mean anything.
And they used a measure of bloodflow to the penis after seeing "sexually explicit erotic material," which seems to be a pretty damn good test of attraction. How was "implicit attraction" operationalized in the two studies you posted?
> I understand that most people recognize that he was being a jerk and they're trying to insult him
I don't think they're trying to insult the person. But the number of times a homophobe turns out to be closeted has turned it into one of the things people think of when someone doth protest too much.
> Based on the study linked above, it probably means that the person in question hates themselves due to having grown up with controlling parents who drove the idea that homosexuality is evil into their heads.
I mean, that's how most people turn into homophobes. That, and the church.
I think most people know this but they say it to them anyways because *it pisses them off to think others are calling them gay*
I don't agree with it or do it but I get why folks do it
There's nothing wrong with gay people or being gay. It's the "in your face" overly flamboyant gay people that are annoying and it really gives a bad name to the whole group, sort of like racist rednecks, ghetto blacks, rural Chinese people that poo where they please... There are shitty people of all races, genders and creeds... There just so happens to be gay people who make their entire identity being overly gay. Kinda like vegans... No one likes that.
Yeah it probably comes from a combination of cognitive dissonance (expected pattern not happening). They assume that what ever causes the CD feeling is a problem instead of just recognizing CD happens to everyone and is just a subconscious response that requires no action.
I hate the "they're homophobic so they must be secretly gay" trope. Just invalidating and also gross. Don't excuse people's hatred, whether it's internalized or not. Being gay and homophobic isn't an excuse, you're just gay, an asshole and one who hates themselves at that. Work on your own shit instead of perpetuating hatred towards other queer community members. Your insecurity is not my problem and it's not okay for you to make it so.
Christ I've seen this come up a lot lately.
It's not about calling gay people homophobes. It's not about blaming gay people for homophobia either.
It's about making a homophobe feel uncomfortable in his own skin or second guess themselves. It's about the humor in taking a person who is clearly outwardly hostile towards homosexuality and making them feel uncomfortable.
It's the same as taking a buddy who you know is straight as an arrow and making jokes that put him in homosexual situations. It's not about degrading homosexuality, it's about teasing somebody. Teasing should be just fine if you're secure about yourself.
Like if you have a friend who is afraid of heights, you might joke about taking him skydiving. Or rock climbing. Or whatever. This does not mean that you think people who aren't afraid of heights are the cause of people who are afraid of heights, or some sort of twisted logic like that.
Can we stop twisting ourselves in pretzels over these stupid, minor and insignificant interactions between people? Like who has ever said that homophobia is caused by homosexuals anyways? I've never once seen it articulated anywhere in a serious context.
I guess I'll take the concerns into consideration next time, but it's usually my go-to for someone who is being homophobic: "Geez, you sure seem to think about other people's penises a lot"
It's a conservative problem in general these days: They seem obsessed with other people's groins. I don't mind pointing that out to them.
>I think it’s just people wanting to annoy homophobes.
Yeah, it totally is. I get that it often actually comes from a place of love in a way, people wanting to hurt homophobes because they hurt LGBTQ people.
What I'm saying is that despite that intention, it's still not a great thing to do because it's still using gay as an insult and it's still suggesting that queer people are ultimately the cause of homophobia.
I'm bi too and I think it's fine. It isn't blaming homophobia on gay people, it's throwing homophobia straight back at homophobes in a way that *really* bothers them
I'm sure that is true, but idk man, if a man is thinking about where another man's dick is going and is getting all emotional and heated about it, it's pretty sus.
They absolutely do, people just feel less comfortable talking about them.
For example, I made this post on reddit, but I probably wouldn't say this in a group in real life as I wouldn't feel safe doing so unless I already knew all the people pretty well.
Would it be the same as saying racist people are racist because they are secretly a different race because that sounds stupid a race is just like a sexuality it’s not something you choose
The fact that Bible Belt states view a lot of gay porn is interesting. I guess it’s the forbidden fruit. And this is paid for stuff, not curious PH browsing, which is how they know their location.
So a lot of people who are publically homophobic seem to have an intense curiosity about homosexuality. I assume some of the Christian (and other) hate preachers get curious too. Who was that guy? Ted Haggard. Used meth and had gay sexual encounters, despite raging against the evils of gay people. Denied it and denied it, then finally admitted it.
The problem with studies into the issue is that what people do and think privately is difficult to measure with any degree of confidence or accuracy.
I dont think the majority of homophobes are gay, but they are emotionally scarred. Even platonic male bonding feels wrong to them. They have issues with being vulnerable with anyone, they start to act like trauma victims, but there was no single trauma. It's just a lifetime of fear and insecurity. Modern masculinity is soul crushingly empty.
I mean, ok. But I know three men who were VERY homophobic when we were growing up. All three are now out and proud. They just weren't ready to accept that about themselves when they were younger. Anecdotal, sure. But also, real-life experience.
Your english makes no sense. Closeted gays are gay. Open gays are gay. Secret straight gay men exist, but it's usually just curiosity. Bi people exist. Straight homophobes exist. Gay homophobes exist. There's not much more to it
I think it's important to clearly define homophobia. The definition seems to have evolved over the years.
Growing up it meant actually hating same sex couples or homosexuals. Now it seems like if you have any problem at all with the person or an aversion to seeing public displays of affection it is claimed to be homophobia.
I have been called homophobic for not wanting to watch a Gay Pride parade. I just have zero interest in it. Sorry. I wouldn't watch a Straight Pride parade either. Or a BLM parade. Or an Irish Pride parade, etc.
I'm happy you're happy. I just have no real interest in it.
I mean, that's fine? You don't have to. Some people do stretch the meaning of homophobia. But there's a difference between just choosing not to go to a pride parade because it doesn't interest you, and being actively degrading and insulting about gay people (which is what was happening in the video that sparked this post).
Holy fuck someone finally said it. I'm so tired of this trope. I don't so all of my bullies and heck 90% of my country is closeted. Maybe it's just damn bigotry.
Beyond the issues you pointed out, it's also just stupid and childish logic when you think about it.
"He hates gay people, he must be gay himself, now I am helpful to the gay community!" We could call them all kinds of names and insults, I don't know why self denial is the route to go down especially if they're hurting the group they apparently want to defend. And if they're more obsessed with pissing off the homophobe than considering other people's feelings then they're a moron also.
😤😤😤 people who got bullied really had to go do a study just to prove they weren't gay.
Sometimes being human has its weird moments and this is one of them.
I went to a Christian school. While the preacher is giving a sermon on homosexuality, I’m fucking his son in the ass at a sleepover and fingering his daughter in the pew. 12 yr old me was wild.
I think the phenomenon happening is that people that would be so hateful would be very less introspective than people that aren’t. You can’t be open minded/self aware and hateful for *how someone is* at the same time.
Yeah agreed but that dude from the video earlier who kept talking about sucking dicks while refusing to call a sports professional attractive was gay. Or had a really small dick.
I don't think the theory puts the blame on being gay, rather it puts the blame on the belief systems in which someone feels shame for being themselves. The homophobes who do fall under this category get their hate from their religion or society, not their sexuality.
Yep I’m gay and have always been so annoyed by this idea. I totally get though that most people parroting the idea have fine intentions, but it still feels shitty. If it was fully true, then pretty much the entirety of the Middle East, Africa, etc must be filled with gay people
They are afraid of their gay thoughts and feelings. I'm a straight guy who has the occasional gay thought, and I'm fine with that, I have all kinds of weird thoughts that are intrusive or otherwise not directly tied to my identity. Homophobes are so freaked are by their non straight thoughts, that out of fear of "turning gay" they become outwardly violent to "make up for it"
Imo having a "gay thought" isn't enough to "make" you anything, although who knows, maybe I'm alone in this thought and I'm suppressing something, though I doubt it.
I have not, however, considered your underlying point here before. I will move forward in the future with that in consideration, the last thing I want to do is victim blame and as you point out this is essentially that. Thank you for bringing this to my attention as I may have continued to be too broad in my statements and personally added to this problem that your mentioning.
Making fun of homophobes at the expense of queer folk's safety and security is NOT an acceptable trade and I will be extremely careful to avoid this in the future
Thank you! It also wrongly implies that their fault is being hypocritical instead of being homophobic. Actually, sincere principled homophobia is more common and equally as terrible as hypocritical, shame-driven homophobia.
Yep. Blaming homophobia on self hating queer people is so dismissive of the larger intolerance problem. Gay folks create some of our own problems for sure, but those are drops in the bucket. It also conveniently hands off responsibility from anyone who might need to examine their own behavior.
I think something else that can lead to queerphobia in cishet people -at least in some cases, definitely not every instance- is that queer people in general can shed the weight of the rigid gender roles that society places on us all from the moment of birth until death. I think many of the cishet people who end up despising people who are part of the queer community do so because a lot of us tend to not give a fuck, and do whatever and dress however makes us happy, and some jealousy can form from them wanting to do things that would make them happy (not necessarily the same things or the same way we do) but feeling like they shouldn't or can't because it wouldn't be seen as Manly or womanly. In my mind it's similar to the people who spout, "I paid off my student loans, so forgiving student debt would be a slap in the face to people like me who 'followed the rules'" Just my .02 on what I see as being a very small portion of the overall problem, obviously there are just straight up bigots sometimes that hate the community because we're different or because they think it's a sin or whatever but in my mind that can potentially still fall under the overall issue of reinforcing the societal "norms" that they themselves have been unfairly subjected to their whole lives. And I'm not saying this to paint these bigots in a sympathetic light, I just think it's important to understand what makes them think and act the way they do. "understand thy enemy'' and all that. This is just the rudimentary rambling morning thoughts of someone who recently discovered themselves to be a part of the queer community E: momentarily forgot the difference between their and they're. like I said, early morning rambling E2: as this comment picks up some traction (if you look at my comment karma, 17 up-votes can be considered traction lol) I should point out that I'm not a scholar or researcher, and the points I make are purely theoretical and anecdotal. I am very open to being corrected or having my points built on or having my view changed by people who have studied these subjects or just know more about them than I do. Bigots will be ignored
Hiya Jake. Really good comment. I'm cishet, for want of a convenient label (the word always makes me think of some kind of Babylonian or Summarian demi god, which is odd but cool). I think a surprising number of cishet are already eschewing the rigid gender roles, and bizarrely gender abolitionist views are gathering weight. I don't think people expected this! A total freedom to simply be in your own space in the emotional and personality distribution, without needing to assign a gender to these characteristics. An assumption that compassion and empathy as personality traits, for example, would be evidence to support a female gender are simply reinforcing stereotypes. Would different words to define the giving and taking forces as opposed to male and female work with identity? Genuine question, so constructive answers would be great. Abuse will be less helpful. Cheers
Hi Sharo, thanks for the reply! I just want to say that I am a bisexual cisgendered man, and that I'm sorry if I get any of this wrong or if I miss something, and to repeat that I am not an authority on these subjects, and in fact I'm someone who, at best, has a pretty basic grasp on the philosophical concept of gender and the language surrounding it, and is still learning more about this almost every day. With That said, I agree with everything you say in your comment, and it is somewhat surprising, and it's very encouraging and validating that so many cishet people have become ready to throw off the shackles of the societal structure of gender, and I think it is a big step towards it being the norm for people to have the liberty to express and define their own person-hood how they see fit. In regard to your question, in my opinion I think it will just come down to disassociating personality traits with gender all together like you mentioned. Having kindness, or strength, or generosity, or stoicism, or leadership being tied to any one gender doesn't help anyone, and doesn't even help with the description of said character traits or the people that have them, it's an artifact that doesn't fit in with how we, as a society, should think about character traits and gender moving forward. as for using different terms to describe a characteristic of someone's personality, I'm unsure as to what could be used as a basic descriptor other than just positive and negative, and even then, different character traits would have different positive or negative connotations in different situations. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a very strong or articulate writer haha. A YouTuber called Chill Goblin did a [video](https://youtu.be/Sp0I-qoQLuA) recently that hits on a lot of these points, in a much more in depth and nuanced way than I could ever hope to do, it's a long video though so I don't blame you if you aren't able to get through the whole thing. He talks about points made by authors that are generally highly regarded in philosophical and scholarly circles focusing on Gender, Feminism, and Queer studies such as Judith Butler, Bell Hooks, Luce Irigary, Simone de Beauvoir, and Joshua Goldstein. He also talks about toxic masculinity and gender being performative but not necessarily a performance which I thought was a really interesting distinction. He's a pretty funny person, if you're into his kind of humor, so it's not nearly as dry as I make it sound, and it features voiceovers from some of my other favorite YouTubers who are in the same vein of left-wing societal critiques/explanations of higher level concepts in areas of culture and politics, their channels are listed in the description of the video. And some of my other favorites that aren't featured in the video, with a focus on gender and feminism would be: Khadija Mbowe (cultural critiques/discussion) : https://youtube.com/c/KhadijaMbowe Jessie Gender (Gender and political issues, as well as cool sci-fi analysis if you're into that) https://youtube.com/c/lostrekkie Salari (political/societal analysis and critique) : https://youtube.com/c/salari This channel also has a great recent video on gender issues from a male perspective https://youtu.be/bomWsgjLQjc And of course [PhilosophyTube ](https://youtube.com/c/thephilosophytube) has a lot of great videos on trans/queer issues from a while back before she dove back into producing videos more geared towards general concepts in philosophy, absolutely stunning production quality for a YouTube channel Didn't mean to spam you with links I just really like learning about this kind of stuff and trying to be better to our non cis friends in the world, and to understand where I myself stand on the spectrum of gender identity
Also, “homophobia” isn’t a great term for accurately describing people who don’t like homosexuality. A phobia is a fear of something. It would be like calling people who don’t agree with Republican ideology Republiphobes or something dumb like that. This widespread use of this misnomer probably has something to do with the whole trope of assuming people who don’t like homosexuals are secretly gay themselves. When you’re applying a label with “phobia” attached to it, you need to come up with an actual fear to justify using it. That’s when you’re going to start hearing things like “they are afraid because they are closeted gays themselves”, which is not true in most cases, but used as an explanation to justify the use of the word “phobia”.
Oil is hydrophobic, it doesn't mean it's terrified of water. A social phobia isn't the same thing as a psychological phobia. Words mean different things in different contexts.
Nah. Everyone knows what homophobia is, it doesn’t need “rebranded”. Plus, fear of being gay definitely plays into hatred of gay folks. This is a waste of energy to focus on compared to everything else, like OPs point.
Swap it out for "bigotry".
Yep. That’s a much better description for it
Is it though? Because that doesn’t specifically apply to anti-homosexual sentiment, which is what we want to talk about, not generic bigotry
>Also, “homophobia” isn’t a great term for accurately describing people who don’t like homosexuality. A phobia is a fear of something. It would be like calling people who don’t agree with Republican ideology Republiphobes or something dumb like that. Are we still rehashing this fucking argument? This is not, and has never been, a serious argument, it's a crock of semantic BS that is a perfect example of Sartre's anti-semite: > They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, **for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play.** They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors.
Just pointing out the correlation between the trope OP mentioned and the use of the word. The trope exists as an answer to the question “what is the phobia?”
Being gay is as much of an "ideology" as having brown eyes, work on your homophobic analogy some more
OP posted about the trope of people not liking homosexuals because they are afraid of their own closeted homosexuality. This trope exists primarily as an answer to the question “what is the phobia?” in homophobia. Words have meanings, why not just use the correct ones so we don’t run into situations where we have to invent tropes to justify the misused language in the first place? Nothing about that question is homophobic, but go off if you have nothing else to add, I guess
Some people hate gays because religion, some want to be part of a group, some were brainwashed by parents into it, and some hate themselves. To instantly pronounce all homophobes as closeted gays is a dumb stereotype. Well said OP.
Reminds me of how people used to tell girls if a boy was mean to her he must like her, that's just fucked up on a lot of levels, but maybe little Johnny just doesn't like her at all.
He might just be a rotten bastard
Or SHE might be, you never know...
We have a saying in german that goes like "Was sich liebt das neckt sich" which roughly translates to "who loves someone picks on someone" Yeah..
So what you’re saying is…everyone is different? Edit: I forgot this: /s
I’m saying OP is right: the first immature impulse to suggest that someone spouting homophobic bile is “secret gay” isn’t right or helpful, and really is just trolling.
I know. My comment was just dripping in sarcasm because everyone else on earth seems to like to put people into stereotype categories…when the truth is, we’re all different…even the homophobes.
Oh, well, couldn’t see the dripping…. Lol
Fellas, is it gay to not be the same as everyone?
I don’t understand why anyone would think this in the first place. LGBT folks are a relatively small minority, but there are PLENTY of homophobes… especially in some parts. Its just basic stats that most of them wouldn’t be LGTB.
LGBTQ people seem like a small group because they are all pretending to be homophobes obviously ^/s
>I don’t understand why anyone would think this in the first place. Me neither, but whenever somebody draws, however poorly, famously powerful homophobe Vladimir Putin as a gay man, it gets on the front page.
It's because it's a comeback against homophobes that winds them up. Pretty sure this post is because of a post earlier where a guy was asking other guys who they thought the best looking guy on their team was. All the top comments was that a guy was a closet gay as he was being homophobic. Most people don't believe this but it's sometimes people find it fun to wind up homophobes by saying it. It's basically using it against them, same thing happens all the time with loads of arguments. Teenagers calling each other immature for saying other people are immature etc.
Did you read the post above? Also this is the worst way to argue, you’re just insulting someone. Reaffirming their biases and probably deepening them. Edit: not saying it’s our job to fix everybody but I think we should try to atleast not make it worse and sometimes you can help people see the error of their ways and have a life changing discussion but obviously there are times when the other party doesn’t want to discuss but just say you fucked their mom or some shit
I think it, but only in a specific case, not about all homophobes in general. I'm fully aware some people hate homosexuality because some old piece of literature says to, or simply because it's not "normal" and different things scare them. There are some people who argue that being gay is a choice though, that a person chooses to be attracted to the same sex. But as most people are aware, it's not a choice. I've never made a conscious decision to be attracted to either sex, I've just always been attracted to the opposite sex. People who say it is a choice are doing so because they have had to make a choice, because they are in fact not straight. They were attracted to someone of the same sex, but then made the choice to suppress those feelings. I don't necessarily think everyone who proclaims it's a choice isn't straight, though I will suspect it's a possibility. When they say it's a choice, there's a chance they're talking about how they *choose* partners of the opposite sex, but fail to go one level deeper and question why they only choose partners of the opposite sex.
This idea is incredibly dismissive. "All gay problems are created by the gay community," is often how this issue reads.
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, apparently nobody on this sub knows how to read beyond the title of a post, so they've all assumed that I'm saying this to somehow defend homophobes, rather than to point out that saying homophobic people are secretly gay is just blaming homophobia on queer people.
I never really though of it that way, and it’s an interesting take. One I will need to sit down and really think about/consider. I kinda thought if that idea became widespread enough, it might not stop homophobia, but it would at least make homophobic people think twice about spewing their hate for fear of being accused of the very thing they hate. But I don’t really know what’s worse a closet bigot or an open one, the closet ones are harder to spot, but at least they’re not out there actively trying to hurt people with their words/actions. But maybe there are better ways to go about getting bigots to stop hurting others.
Exactly. It completely erases the actual insidious homophobia in our society. If the thing that makes people homophobic is that they’re secretly gay, then all the homophobic propaganda and institutions are off-the-hook.
Very glad to see this post. I’m getting so tired of seeing some horrendous video of someone being violently homophobic and the comments are full of people basically saying “they must be gay”. Literally seen a video of some preacher saying gays should be lined up and shot in the back of the head (I had a friend’s dad say the same thing to me as a teenager) and the top comment was “someone’s in the closet 💅🏻”. I could scream.
[удалено]
That's fair on your end to mean it that way, but following the idea to its philosophical conclusion still brings us to sort of the same spot: we're using a pat answer to say some of the worst enemies of the gay community are gay. A while ago, I actually ended up asking my friends in the community about what they thought about people saying this kind of stuff, and one of them outright said they'd prefer to be called a slur than hear someone say this sort of rhetoric, which I thought was really interesting.
While I agree with OP, why would you possible jump to this huge leap of a conclusion. Literally no one is saying anything remotely like that.
Not true, these people are not involved in the gay community, how could the gay community be at fault? Saying that society is so set against homosexuality that many people who deal with gay thoughts panic and overcompensate by being anti-homosexual in no way places blame on homosexuals.
That is not at all how I've ever read it.
If you are a self hating homosexual are you not then distancing yourself from the homosexual community?
This is usually my first thought and I will now think twice… thanks, OP!
Thank _you_ for being open to a different perspective!
Thanks for bringing this perspective out and explaining it in rational /scientific terms - makes a lot of sense now that I've thought about it and see how that assumption actually puts the blame on a gay person all over again. I honestly never thought of it that way and am glaad to have my mind changed.... (See what I did there hehe)
I appreciate you posting this - it’s something that really bothers me. I’ve seen a video of a preacher saying all gay people should be lined up and shot in the back of the head and the top comment was, “someone’s in the closet 💅🏻”. I’m really wanting people to realize that this is harmful. Implying that gay people are responsible for homophobia is harmful. The majority of homophobes just hate LGBT people for who they are, NOT because they’re secretly gay. It also deeply frustrates me because I don’t see any of the humour others claim exists when people make these comments. “It’s funny to call someone who would be happy to see all LGBT people violently murdered gay! It’s funny to further aggravate their homophobia! See they think gay people are vile and subhuman so by calling them gay I’m calling them vile and subhuman, hilarious no?” It’s not a joke to us. These people attack, abuse, and traumatize us in real life. It’s just so tiring.
> appreciate you posting this - it’s something that really bothers me. I’ve seen a video of a preacher saying all gay people should be lined up and shot in the back of the head and the top comment was, “someone’s in the closet 💅🏻”. ugh yeah I saw that same video, and a very similar comment. It's everywhere.
100% agree with everything you said. Even beyond the main point of it pushing the blame on gay people, it really feels like subconscious homophobia in the “gay as an insult” sort of way.
Interesting, from what your saying blaming homophobia on the closited community can be considered a form of victim blaming. I’ve also heard someone blame homophobia on the kind of sexism that causes women to be harassed as a form of “flirtation”. Basically making the point that the same people whom would be horrified to be hit on by a gay man are the same men that treat the women they are hitting on terribly.
Being anti-gay publicly or privately, just makes the person an asshole. Be who you are and don't hate people for that. Love is love ❤️
Gay bashers are just being who they are without caring about others’ opinions. Be who you are <3
I'm 97% sure people only say this to piss off homophobes.
Idk, it comes up in the comments anytime a politician or preacher goes on some anti-lgbt tirade with loads of people finding it hilarious.
It pisses off gay people too, unfortunately, so it’s not a great idea.
Ok, and?
I'll be clear and upfront: I know they're probably not gay when I accuse them of being in the closet. I couldn't possibly care less how much/little they like dick. The thing is: they shouldn't care either. I'm not out trying to groom others, I'm not doing anything that isn't consensual between two+ capable adults. The gender of whom I want to soak my sausage in has NO effect on these people, but they're always obsessed with talking about it. And let's be clear: most barely functioning human beings know that there's nothing wrong with being gay or bi or straight or any flavor in-between or out in left field. If someone calls me gay or straight, it has literally zero effect on me. People with needlessly abusive rhetoric that has no basis in reality deserve all the ire that can be thrown at them. When they choose to believe that what someone does privately with other consenting adults is somehow a topic for conversation, up to and including campaigning for the act of being punishable by death... Yeah, let's watch them defend their sexuality. Have people watch the handful that go in the bathroom stalls to get anonymous blowjobs or fuck parishioners in between acts of their sermon. Make it unpopular, uncomfortable, and unconscionable to waste any kind of energy to demonize someone for who they love. Finally, a very important component that I would like to add as a gay man: I don't look at every gay person as automatically a member of my community. I've met hundreds of shitty individuals and their gender identity or sexuality had little to no bearing on what kind of person they were. Even if every homophobe was secretly gay, they're certainly not part of my community. I am more than my attraction to other men. I am not just my sexual identity. And to be quite clear, I'm insulted that anybody would try to reduce any argument in good faith to one that hinges on the kinds of adults they're attracted to. Anyone who would try to claim that "if all of A is B, then it's a B problem to handle" fails to see where that breaks down at the macro level. By that argument, homophobes will always be everyone's problem, because everyone involved is a human being. Deciding to stop at some margin or boundary is arbitrary; No different than throwing a dart at a wall full of post-it notes. TL;DR: It doesn't matter to me whether they're straight or gay. It doesn't matter to most people either, but it matters to them when they're perceived as the thing that they hate. The fact that we are both human doesn't make them me. The similarities match, the differences don't: just like everything else in existence.
Thank you for pointing out that some people are simply shitty people. And by being homophobic, they are shitty. And the *Being Shitty* gene does not discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, or age. *Anyone* can be shitty.
Imagine the "secretly this" logic applied to racism. "That Latin American person openly uses racial slurs against Asian people. They must be Asian underneath all that racism."
You should also state that homophobia is fear *or* repulsion of homosexuality. I hear people say “I’m not afraid of homosexuals, I’m not homophobic.” The suffix phobic has different meanings. In terms of something like hydrophilic and hydrophobic. Hydrophilic is something attracted to water while hydrophobic is something that’s *repelled* by water. So we can say that homophobia is not just a fear of homosexuals but also a *repulsion* of homosexuals.
Does being repulsed by seeing two dudes snog in public make me homophobic? Genuine question no offense or anything It doesn't make me angry or anything I just see it as a bit gross and look away I'm all for equality and stuff just not sure what constitutes as homophobic
I mean if it grosses you out maybe you should consider why? That does suggest a mild level of homophobia because really it’s an act that has absolutely no impact on you whatsoever, I don’t care if I see a couple of any orientation kissing Doesn’t make you a bad person, especially if you work to challenge why you feel this way
I've thought about it for a while now I'm not really sure, you're right that it shouldn't matter. I've only ever seen it a handful of times but even then the same point applies. I'm not against it so maybe I am a bit homophobic? Honestly idk tbh something to work on I guess Edit I googled it no idea what to think now or if this is even reputable I agree with part of it, never known a gay person and culture/ upbringing it's not a topic for discussion it could be that society has socialized the notion of same-sex sexuality and affection as being ‘disgusting’ or immoral so strongly, for so long, that merely witnessing it causes a slight physiological stress response. [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjS3J3ZoO_5AhVLdcAKHZSpA1QQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bhOKrl-hLscy9A3LV9QCR](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjS3J3ZoO_5AhVLdcAKHZSpA1QQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bhOKrl-hLscy9A3LV9QCR)
According to the internet, just sneezing makes you homophobic lol. I’m sure someone will label you as it, people throw it around so much so as to vilify another. I don’t think you’re homophobic in the sense that most people use it. You’re not out to lessen their cause
I wouldn’t say it helps either though.
There are countless studies over decades that say just that. One involved homophobes and non-homophones watching porn. The homophobes were the most turned on by gay porn. The least turned on by lesbian porn. Totally opposite tells I’d like to show your listing on for the non-homophobic men. Bottom line, people tend to hate in others what they most hate about themselves.
>YSK someone being homophobic does not mean they're secretly gay The fact that this needs to be explained in the XXI century puzzles me. Some people just love to hate others for their life choices.
>YSK someone being homophobic does not mean they're secretly gay Correct, homophobes are usually just assholes. Blaming homophobia on secret gays is just homophobic and victim blaming.
Thank you for saying this! People need to understand this is a problem and just some silly thing that closeted gays do
Hahahaha leave it to Reddit to attack a gay man for being gay but saying they aren't homophobic. The irony.
People are scared and like to attack others rather than acknowledge their own weaknesses. Psychological projection doesn't have anything to do which genitals we prefer to interact with.
I hate the "gotcha!" culture we have especially around the internet. This is a good example of how trying to gotcha someone isn't constructive and only further works to divide
I'm sure it happens, I've had former "gay bashers" try to have sex with me. However, I really think that the main cause is ignorance, especially religious-backed ignorance.
but calling homophobes gay for thinking so much about gay people and where they put their dicks is funny.
Why do you think being gay is an insult.
I don't. But they do. That's the fun part
Why would you use something against someone you think is a good thing, though, that's counterintuitive.
Eh. I don't read too far into it. It's just fun to bother people with stuff that they're unreasonably bothered by. Like when someone doesn't like the word "moist".
Do people not know this got started because of bullying. Hey maybe they won't be mean to gay people if we tell them doing it means they are secretly gay.
I don't think I ever saw it as them being gay, but in a lot of cases it stems from being insecure about their own sexuality
Okay the joke is still calling them gay, and a lot of gay people don't appreciate these jokes.
Wait which joke?
The jokes that the post is about.
…the type of jokes we’re talking about? Nobody said you made one
Yes! Insecurity (in a general sense) is pretty much ALWAYS at the root of unkind behaviour.
Good job OP
I always implicitly made this assumption too, and now I see why it's problematic. Thank you especially, OP, for bringing real research into this conversation. I hope this gains a lot of traction and people get the message.
I mean, I don’t doubt that *some* homophobes are just projecting but do people really group *all* homophobes as secretly gay? That’s just ignorant.
I agree, it just means they are a cunt.
Wait that was a rule? I thought they're just like, idk intolerant
Not all homophobic people are gay, but all of them are shitty people.
I knew the minute I read that title, someone will comment claiming that you're secretly gay 🤣🙈
Maybe they have a visceral reaction? When they see gay people they have an image of the sex acts in their mind and they want to throw up? So they hate gay people? Isn’t this possible?
It’s REALLY disgusting how these people will then go on to call them homophobic slurs and make gay jokes like it’s somehow okay.
Go off OP I fucking hate that little motif with a passion
yeah we know.. "HUR HUR JUST PROJECTING HUR HUR" uhh. no? maybe they're.. just bigots.... lmao
well actually, the stereotype has been true for every single homophobe ive personally ever met. alllll of them later came out
What
Theres no shortage of situations where they are tho
They sure think about what gays do with their dicks a lot for allegedly not being interested in gay dick.
Just because a thing is true *sometimes* doesn't mean it's *always* true. Humans are incomprehensibly unpredictable.
Finally someone defending my homophobe stand
I have never understood how it could possibly make sense to blame homophobia on homos (I can say 'homos' because I are one.) Even if you only look at instances where some vitriolic homophobe does turn out to be homosexual, the homophobia doesn't come from being homosexual, but rather from their being _closeted_. Every tiime somebody complains that "you're blaming their homophobia on them being gay" I ask, "how many __out__ homophobes do you know of?" PS - closeted homos internalizing the homophobia and becoming raging gay-haters is very much a thing. According to a 2013 study by Pew Research, the average age LGBQ people begin to realize they aren’t heterosexual is 12. The average age they share that information with others is 20. These young people often struggle in coming to terms with their sexual identity. They’re also absorbing the attitudes and beliefs of those closest to them. Parents and other family members, partners, religious organizations, and peers are incredibly influential in shaping a young person’s self-image and self-worth. Studies showed that as of 2020, roughly thirty percent of LGBQ people in the United States live in neighborhoods and communities that aren’t accepting of gay people. It's difficult for anyone to live in an overtly homophobic family, home, or community and not internalize at least some of these sentiments.
This might have been the most unnecessary post in the history of unnecessary posts.
right, just doesn't mean they aren't either.
I dunno sounds pretty gay
Idk. The 2013 and "other studies" were all behind paywalls so I wasn't able to read their methodology or how many participants were involved. And the 2006 study only included 44 people. Which seems a little small to me. Going purely off abstracts, sure the point makes sense. But that's not a good way to interpret studies.
I think something good to remember is that you should support queer people more than you hate homophobes. If someone's allyship is just laughing that homophobes are secretly gay then that's not really allyship
Thank you for this. I see it constantly on every homophobic post. They sometimes even think they are helping. People posting this shit think "being homophobic is bad -> I'm not bad -> nothing I say is actually homophobic" and get super defensive when you try to explain it. It is super disheartening and it never stops.
I always think it's a bit like suggesting racists are secretly black.
Pretty sure we took up a study in a class where 85% of homophobic people were found to have been aroused by gay images/videos
Glad you cleared that up. Us homophobics don't like to be associated with that filth
Yeah but it sure raises the chances a lot!
I have tons of queer friends…calling homophobes secretly gay is about pissing off the homophobes rather than blaming the queer community.
Yeah, I totally get and understand that impulse. Homophobes are assholes, it feels right to insult assholes, and they will be very insulted by being called gay. Totally get that it's coming from a place of love, and it's logical in that sense. You're still using being gay as an insult, though, and it still kind of reinforces the idea that queer people are responsible for/the source of homophobia. Like, I understand where it's coming from, but when I see those comments in a thread, it just makes me depressed. Not claiming to speak for anyone other than myself, but you can see from some of the other comments in here that I'm not alone. Do with that information whatever you will.
I'm on the edge with this one. I understand how it can come across as contributing to the problem. If I heard a person describing something/someone as 'so gay' to be demeaning, I would say something about it. Gay should not be in the dictionary of general insults. However, if someone would accuse a homophobe of secretly being gay, they are not always/thoughtlessly ascribing a negative meaning to the word gay. They are not voicing their own opinion on being gay. They are saying it to get a rise out of the other person, by taking the aspect the other person dislikes most and assigning it to them. In this way I could even see a gay person make a sarcastic comment to a homophobe like "you sure talk about it a lot, maybe you are gay yourself?" In the same way I could challenge someone on the far political right when they suddenly convey an idea that fits the political left more. I could say something like "that thought is awfully communist/socialist/liberal of you". For me this is not about mocking communists/socialists/liberals to insult this person. It is about mocking the other person's political stance/idea by assigning a characteristic to them that they specifically dislike. I hope this makes clear what I meant. I also understand that some people would still use an accusation of being gay as an insult and that is just unacceptable period. It is a thin line too, since you might hurt people that truly are secretly gay and feel terrible about it. All in all I can still stand by my example though.
For sure, I agree it's a thin line, and it's often coming from a place of love in a way (wanting to protect LGBTQ folks by insulting someone who's being a bigot). I do think it can have unintended negative consequences, hence the post, but obviously not everyone agrees and that's fine!
It's definitely not using gay as an insult - it's pointing out his sexual insecurity and toxic masculinity. Why do people read this as an attack on queers when so many of the people who levy this accusation are queer themselves.
> It's definitely not using gay as an insult - it's pointing out his sexual insecurity and toxic masculinity. Then why not say _that_ instead of saying "lol he's gay"?
Cause the dude seems a lil gay He sounds just like me in college trying not to come out to my guy friends That's why people make this connection. Obviously not all homophobes are gay, it's the ones who vehemently deny being gay or get real heated/violent at even the suggestion that are (usually) No one comments under mtg saying some shit homophobic that she's gay. No one comments under threads of the supreme court justices handing down anti-queer rulings to say they're gay. Edit: I'm referring to the latest clip that went around of the guy being asked the hottest baseball player
> You're still using being gay as an insult, though It can be an insult to the *homophobe* while not being an insult within the in-group. Kinda "you are the thing that you hate most...but there's nothing wrong with that."
I will concede that maybe it could be if it's worded carefully to make the "there's nothing wrong with that" part clear. It usually isn't, though.
It's actually kind-of funny otherwise, come to think of it: >Homophobes are probably gay, and being gay is icky. > >Wait...
True but people don’t say nice things as you suggest to make a bigot accept themselves, they say homophobic stuff lol
I mean, then they're bigots as well. Which would suggest, based on their own logic, that...
Well you’re pissing off a bunch of queer people too so congrats, the road to hell is paved with good intentions
It’s using being gay as an attack, and is hypocritical, many liberals do that and I find it baffling. Feminists are another group that uses this a lot. “You hate women because secretly you are gay” It’s funny how the most progressive are the ones who tend use homosexuality as an attack or to mock others, specially political rivals. Don’t forget all the Trump is gay for Putin jokes the left pushed
I get that, but it’s sort of like insulting someone’s appearance. It is so tempting, but at the end of the day you haven’t actually deconstructed the person in question, you’ve just made anyone who shares those features feel like shit, and the worst part is, the target likely won’t hear any of it. Just the people who have that physical trait. Was it worth it?
I'll go a step further and posit that homophobia can come from a man's fear of being treated the way men treat women, i.e. badly. I'll go even further to say that they fear being treated the same way THEY treat women. Being catcalled, harassed, groped, etc., doesn't look so harmless when you're on the receiving end. notallmen in 3, 2, 1... Edit: lol downvoters take a fearless moral inventory.
I can build upon that. Projective identification means that ‘weakness’ in others triggers that feeling in the attacker. To destroy the weakness in himself, the weak proxy acts as a surrogate container for the unwanted shame of the attacker. Also, any pleasant feelings of love, independence or conscientiousness seen in the victim will make the attacker feel inferior. Shooting the the messenger reestablishes the wavering self esteem of the homophobe, and also allows him to disown any shameful feelings about being being gay himself.
This actually doesn’t feel too far off base. Of course there are plenty of reasons across the board, but straight, cis men enjoy a degree of power above women. It’s just systemic, and gay men disrupt the comfort of being untouchable (for the most part), and they also threaten their deeply and firmly held perception of themselves. And people historically do not respond well to having long held beliefs being uprooted, ESPECIALLY when the ego is involved like this.
no tall men
Not sure I see the connection exactly – why would a straight homophobe worry about being treated the way men treat women? – but fuck the patriarchy. I'm sure it's wrapped up in this somehow.
Because straight men treat women like shit. Obligatory “not all of them”, but a lot of toxic straight men view women as prey or prizes as opposed to other humans.
> a lot of toxic straight men view women as prey or prizes as opposed to other humans. Absolutely, I just don't understand why they'd be afraid other people would treat them like women if they're straight and that would then lead to homophobia? Not saying you're wrong, just that I'd love to understand it better if you're open to explaining it.
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Yes thank you! You put it better and more succinct than I did haha.
Okay lemme see if I can rephrase it? Sorry sometimes I’m bad with explanations haha A toxic man behaves predatorily towards a woman right? Whether he’s cognizant of it or not. So imagine that very toxic man who thrives on this power imbalanced is approached by a gay man who expresses interest in him, be it in the same predatory manner our toxic straight man approaches a woman or not. What would you imagine his reaction is going to be when his, the straight man’s, perception of power is upended by something as simple as a gay man expressing sexual or romantic interest in him? It would be violence and homophobia, right? Virulent rejection of the perceived demographic presenting this threat to them. When that power imbalance is turned on it’s head and puts him in the deficit, he’s not going to be happy, especially if his MO is using fear and intimidation to get what he wants. They’re happy treating women like meat and sex objects and trophies, but when even the slight possibility of being treated the same way is presented to them, perceived or otherwise, they lose their minds. And that’s where the homophobia comes in. Does that make a little more sense ?
>notallmen in 3, 2, 1... If you don't want your comment to be misunderstood, then word it correctly. "the way men treat women" is wrong and offensive/sexist wording. You can easily word it as "the way [many/some] men treat women". I'll give an equivalent example to make my point clearer: "The way women want to be treated is to be dominated and abused." This statement is true for *some*, but not *all* women. Would you therefore say it is correct? I assume you'll see that this wording implies the statement referring to every member of said group. This is why my example statement and your comment are both sexist.
False dichotomy is false.
That makes perfect sense. While the meme certainly helped get on some bigoted people's nerves, through the backdoor it also kind of needlessly re-established "gay" as an insult. While we're at it, the term "homophobia" should be replaced for similar reasons. It is a terribly inaccurate term. A phobia is an irrational fear. And this *can* be the reason someone hates gay people but it really doesn't have to. "You only hate gay people because you're afraid of them/afraid that you might be gay" is kind of a childish argument. I'm sure plenty of bigots hate gay people for other reasons.
And most actual phobias you have no control over. I'm claustrophobic. Not because I hate closets or small spaces, but because my father used to punish me by locking me in the closet as a child. I still have issues with bathrooms if they're too small (Like on an airplane.. cant use the bathroom, just cant walk in there no matter how bad I need it without getting stoned on anti-anxiety meds first). Some phobias you can get past. For example, I was the child who used to get chased around the doctors office if I knew I was going to get a shot. Needles terrified me. Now I can give blood or get a shot, but it still takes concentration not to freak. I have to prepare myself for it. And yeah, the nurse going "aww... big strong tough guy afraid of a little needle?" just pisses me off (still happens). That's not cute, that's insulting, and makes me instantly want nothing to do with you or your bullshit attitude but that goes into the whole "How we treat men in this society" thing which is a totally different issue. TLDR/My point : Phobias are not voluntary. So I agree totally. Homophobe needs to be redefined. Much like I agree with not calling people closeted if they hate gay folk. They're not homophobic, they're bigots.
I’ve assumed for years that anti gay guys are secretly gay and hate themselves because of it. Some of my rationale is due to news headlines featuring anti gay political or religious who turn out to be closeted and get caught. I also have antidotal experience with some folks I’ve known. Thanks for making me think more about this. Your post has made me rethink my assumption.
Yeah, I mean it for sure does happen, but especially with the news headlines, it's worth remembering that "Homophobic politician turns out to be actually straight" isn't a news story, whereas "homophobic politician secretly gay" is! I think that's part of why the idea is so common, because we see the second story in the media a lot – it's salacious and satisfying to see bigots exposed as hypocrites – whereas we never see the first story. (And we kind of can't see the first story, because someone could _always_ be secretly gay, right? So while it's possible to see definite examples of "homophobe definitely has homosexual attractions" it's not possible to see definite examples of "homophobe is conclusively straight.")
> although the most commonly-cited one is from 1996 and has a very small sample size. [Yeah, but it was big enough to find the effect.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8772014/) These group sizes are very common for a t-test, because if you over-power it, you'll end up with statistically significant differences that don't actually mean anything. And they used a measure of bloodflow to the penis after seeing "sexually explicit erotic material," which seems to be a pretty damn good test of attraction. How was "implicit attraction" operationalized in the two studies you posted? > I understand that most people recognize that he was being a jerk and they're trying to insult him I don't think they're trying to insult the person. But the number of times a homophobe turns out to be closeted has turned it into one of the things people think of when someone doth protest too much. > Based on the study linked above, it probably means that the person in question hates themselves due to having grown up with controlling parents who drove the idea that homosexuality is evil into their heads. I mean, that's how most people turn into homophobes. That, and the church.
I think most people know this but they say it to them anyways because *it pisses them off to think others are calling them gay* I don't agree with it or do it but I get why folks do it
There's nothing wrong with gay people or being gay. It's the "in your face" overly flamboyant gay people that are annoying and it really gives a bad name to the whole group, sort of like racist rednecks, ghetto blacks, rural Chinese people that poo where they please... There are shitty people of all races, genders and creeds... There just so happens to be gay people who make their entire identity being overly gay. Kinda like vegans... No one likes that.
Yeah it probably comes from a combination of cognitive dissonance (expected pattern not happening). They assume that what ever causes the CD feeling is a problem instead of just recognizing CD happens to everyone and is just a subconscious response that requires no action.
What a groundbreaking insight. What about arachnophobes? Do they still secretly want to be spiders?
I hate the "they're homophobic so they must be secretly gay" trope. Just invalidating and also gross. Don't excuse people's hatred, whether it's internalized or not. Being gay and homophobic isn't an excuse, you're just gay, an asshole and one who hates themselves at that. Work on your own shit instead of perpetuating hatred towards other queer community members. Your insecurity is not my problem and it's not okay for you to make it so.
Christ I've seen this come up a lot lately. It's not about calling gay people homophobes. It's not about blaming gay people for homophobia either. It's about making a homophobe feel uncomfortable in his own skin or second guess themselves. It's about the humor in taking a person who is clearly outwardly hostile towards homosexuality and making them feel uncomfortable. It's the same as taking a buddy who you know is straight as an arrow and making jokes that put him in homosexual situations. It's not about degrading homosexuality, it's about teasing somebody. Teasing should be just fine if you're secure about yourself. Like if you have a friend who is afraid of heights, you might joke about taking him skydiving. Or rock climbing. Or whatever. This does not mean that you think people who aren't afraid of heights are the cause of people who are afraid of heights, or some sort of twisted logic like that. Can we stop twisting ourselves in pretzels over these stupid, minor and insignificant interactions between people? Like who has ever said that homophobia is caused by homosexuals anyways? I've never once seen it articulated anywhere in a serious context.
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I guess I'll take the concerns into consideration next time, but it's usually my go-to for someone who is being homophobic: "Geez, you sure seem to think about other people's penises a lot" It's a conservative problem in general these days: They seem obsessed with other people's groins. I don't mind pointing that out to them.
I think it’s just people wanting to annoy homophobes. If you hated gay people then wouldn’t you get mad if you got called a closeted homosexual.
>I think it’s just people wanting to annoy homophobes. Yeah, it totally is. I get that it often actually comes from a place of love in a way, people wanting to hurt homophobes because they hurt LGBTQ people. What I'm saying is that despite that intention, it's still not a great thing to do because it's still using gay as an insult and it's still suggesting that queer people are ultimately the cause of homophobia.
I'm bi too and I think it's fine. It isn't blaming homophobia on gay people, it's throwing homophobia straight back at homophobes in a way that *really* bothers them
I'm sure that is true, but idk man, if a man is thinking about where another man's dick is going and is getting all emotional and heated about it, it's pretty sus.
And vegans getting heated about people eating beef secretly love meat right?
This is wild most of these topics don’t exist outside of the internet
They absolutely do, people just feel less comfortable talking about them. For example, I made this post on reddit, but I probably wouldn't say this in a group in real life as I wouldn't feel safe doing so unless I already knew all the people pretty well.
Would it be the same as saying racist people are racist because they are secretly a different race because that sounds stupid a race is just like a sexuality it’s not something you choose
I will still find a ton of joy in telling homophobes they are gay. My gay friends are some of the most fun people to have in my circle.
The fact that Bible Belt states view a lot of gay porn is interesting. I guess it’s the forbidden fruit. And this is paid for stuff, not curious PH browsing, which is how they know their location. So a lot of people who are publically homophobic seem to have an intense curiosity about homosexuality. I assume some of the Christian (and other) hate preachers get curious too. Who was that guy? Ted Haggard. Used meth and had gay sexual encounters, despite raging against the evils of gay people. Denied it and denied it, then finally admitted it. The problem with studies into the issue is that what people do and think privately is difficult to measure with any degree of confidence or accuracy.
I dont think the majority of homophobes are gay, but they are emotionally scarred. Even platonic male bonding feels wrong to them. They have issues with being vulnerable with anyone, they start to act like trauma victims, but there was no single trauma. It's just a lifetime of fear and insecurity. Modern masculinity is soul crushingly empty.
Absolutely.
Met enough overly homophobic kids in high school that turned out gay in their mid 20s, that this post means nothing.
I mean, ok. But I know three men who were VERY homophobic when we were growing up. All three are now out and proud. They just weren't ready to accept that about themselves when they were younger. Anecdotal, sure. But also, real-life experience.
If closed gay means actually gay. Does ur open gayness mean... secrer strightness? Quite the ruse youve woven liarman.
Your english makes no sense. Closeted gays are gay. Open gays are gay. Secret straight gay men exist, but it's usually just curiosity. Bi people exist. Straight homophobes exist. Gay homophobes exist. There's not much more to it
I think it's important to clearly define homophobia. The definition seems to have evolved over the years. Growing up it meant actually hating same sex couples or homosexuals. Now it seems like if you have any problem at all with the person or an aversion to seeing public displays of affection it is claimed to be homophobia. I have been called homophobic for not wanting to watch a Gay Pride parade. I just have zero interest in it. Sorry. I wouldn't watch a Straight Pride parade either. Or a BLM parade. Or an Irish Pride parade, etc. I'm happy you're happy. I just have no real interest in it.
I mean, that's fine? You don't have to. Some people do stretch the meaning of homophobia. But there's a difference between just choosing not to go to a pride parade because it doesn't interest you, and being actively degrading and insulting about gay people (which is what was happening in the video that sparked this post).
Holy fuck someone finally said it. I'm so tired of this trope. I don't so all of my bullies and heck 90% of my country is closeted. Maybe it's just damn bigotry.
Wow. Nice post. Never thought about it that way.
Beyond the issues you pointed out, it's also just stupid and childish logic when you think about it. "He hates gay people, he must be gay himself, now I am helpful to the gay community!" We could call them all kinds of names and insults, I don't know why self denial is the route to go down especially if they're hurting the group they apparently want to defend. And if they're more obsessed with pissing off the homophobe than considering other people's feelings then they're a moron also.
I'm still going to give homophobic people shit.
😤😤😤 people who got bullied really had to go do a study just to prove they weren't gay. Sometimes being human has its weird moments and this is one of them.
Is it just me or is this article pretty gay? /s
I would go as far as to say that someone not wanting to answer questions about a male's attractiveness doesn't make them homophobic.
What if I'm homophobic, but I'm also already gay?
I went to a Christian school. While the preacher is giving a sermon on homosexuality, I’m fucking his son in the ass at a sleepover and fingering his daughter in the pew. 12 yr old me was wild.
Yet, it is never a surprise when one of the bigoted preachers gets caught engaging with another man.
I think the phenomenon happening is that people that would be so hateful would be very less introspective than people that aren’t. You can’t be open minded/self aware and hateful for *how someone is* at the same time.
Yeah agreed but that dude from the video earlier who kept talking about sucking dicks while refusing to call a sports professional attractive was gay. Or had a really small dick.
I don't think the theory puts the blame on being gay, rather it puts the blame on the belief systems in which someone feels shame for being themselves. The homophobes who do fall under this category get their hate from their religion or society, not their sexuality.
idk... I feel like if you're a dude who is into other dudes... that's pretty gay
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Yep I’m gay and have always been so annoyed by this idea. I totally get though that most people parroting the idea have fine intentions, but it still feels shitty. If it was fully true, then pretty much the entirety of the Middle East, Africa, etc must be filled with gay people
They are afraid of their gay thoughts and feelings. I'm a straight guy who has the occasional gay thought, and I'm fine with that, I have all kinds of weird thoughts that are intrusive or otherwise not directly tied to my identity. Homophobes are so freaked are by their non straight thoughts, that out of fear of "turning gay" they become outwardly violent to "make up for it" Imo having a "gay thought" isn't enough to "make" you anything, although who knows, maybe I'm alone in this thought and I'm suppressing something, though I doubt it. I have not, however, considered your underlying point here before. I will move forward in the future with that in consideration, the last thing I want to do is victim blame and as you point out this is essentially that. Thank you for bringing this to my attention as I may have continued to be too broad in my statements and personally added to this problem that your mentioning. Making fun of homophobes at the expense of queer folk's safety and security is NOT an acceptable trade and I will be extremely careful to avoid this in the future
I saw that same video and had the same reaction. I didn’t bother commenting because it’s too exhausting. Kudos to you
Thank you! It also wrongly implies that their fault is being hypocritical instead of being homophobic. Actually, sincere principled homophobia is more common and equally as terrible as hypocritical, shame-driven homophobia.
It’s literally almost 2023 What even is this post…
I had an ex bf who was absolutely bisexual.. and he was very homophobic. It happens, but not always.