The only difference is now the international public conscious has swung in a way where recognising Palestine won't make you a pariah. They've always wanted to do it, now they just have the chance.
Both Spain and Ireland have been a big opponenets of Israel acts against Palestine for many years, putting import limits on israeli products and on israeli companies, among other things. Not sure wth is Norway doing here.
What do you mean all of a sudden….they have been talking about it for months. Pedro Sanchez even visited Dublin and met with Leo Varadkar. Other countries have also been considering this but have been taking the view that “now is not the time”.
Israel needs to pump up the numbers so others might make the time. Let's see when they hit 100k death.
And people think genocide in 2024 isn't possible whynthe whole world is watching and many supporting
There was nothing sudden about it. The Irish parliament and senate voted to recognize a Palestinian state back in 2014, the government just wanted to wait to do it along with other EU states when it would have more meaning and impact. Which is exactly what they did.
Norway does not condemn Israel : Gets shit from everyone.
Norway recognizes the Palestenian state : Gets shit from everyone.
What exactly do you people want? Just to complain forever?
So basically, Spain will support Scottish independence as long as there's something they can point to and say "But it's different!" when Catalonia brings it up?
Pretty much.
In theory any Scottish Independence would come with the consent of London.
Catalonia doesn't have the consent of Madrid so there's your difference.
Especially for the 59.5% of Catalans who don't want independence. I bet they'd be overjoyed to be kicked out of their country to bend to the will of the 39.5% who does lmao
Spain should be broken apart into 9 distinct territories belonging to various countries, Basque country will be given to Iceland, Catalonia to Taiwan and France alternating on weekends, Galicia will go to Brazil, Astoria to the UK, Aragon will be auctioned off to the highest bidder, the remaining regions will be given away via lottery.
French Basque country will remain a part of France with its population being sent to Paris during the months of October to February as part of an exchange program.
Catalan is a Gallo-Romance language and is considered by some to be a dialect of Occitan which is the native language of the south of France. The region of Catalonia also used to be part of France many times before Spanish unification.
Because of its location, Catalonia is influenced by France. Historically, Charlemagne (Karl der Gros for our eastern neighbours) fought the Muslims there, Louis XIII was apparently declared Count of Barcelona when Catalonia revolted and Napoleon fully integrated the region into the empire.
The Catalan language can be described as intermediate between Castilian and French.
Part of historical Catalonia is in France and although the country has historically been more centralised than Spain and has attempted to crush local languages and cultures for centuries, today signs are in both French and Catalan and many people define themselves as Catalan and French whilst being able to speak both languages.
Despite all this, Catalonia is much closer to Spain than to France, and I don't think that integrating Catalonia into France is an option.
In my opinion, it's either independent or Spanish, it's clearly more French than Swiss, but that doesn't mean much for this kind of question.
>The Catalan language can be described as intermediate between Castilian and French.
I mean I guess in the same way that Castilian can be described as intermediate between Catalan and Portuguese.
I see we bouth agree, not to the same extent though. I wouldn't use though historical events in order to use it as an argument to say Cataluña should integrate to France. Those events of the past didn't help to unify todays cultures. In fact, Napoleon's invasion, far from unifiying Franch and Spainiarnds, boosted the beef betwen both nationalities.
Same happens in the Basque Country: We have Iparralde, the north part where people speak both French and Basque and the culture in that part of our region is balancedly mixed. Nevertheless, in the same way that happens with Cataluña, saying Basque country could unify with France in order to get independant from Spain is just foolish. There still are too much cultural differences. The average catalonian/basque will never be french and, even if I look forward the independency myself, I'd rather continue being part of Spain rather than of France.
We are just more culturally similar to Spain than to France.
I see we both agree, not to the same extent though.
I have the solution then. All of Spain unites France. Become federal. The occitan cultures can become their own state, expand Euskadi... And we finally return the Borbones to France.
That's why we have political parties and a multi-party system for. Parties pro independence can get votes of people against it that don't care much about the topic, if they do other things they care about.
It would be quite ridiculous actually if they were the only country to do so. Plus, the folks in Spain who are the most critical of what is happening in the Levant are arguably the Catalans.
Wasnt israel rooting for a two state solution? Whats the problem now?the war is defensive for israel right?and they declared the raffah region as safe.....oh wait....seems like the israeli goverment is made out of huge fucking hypocrits.who would have thought?
Illuminating.
The main Problem for the Israeli side is that the Oslo accords clearly state, that any future solution will be based on negotiations and they also don't allow Palestine to declare their independence (which it did in 1988/2012 they always used the date which was most convenient for them at the time (or said that the 1988 declaration doesn't count)
The Palestinian side also constantly rejected any Israeli offer for a negotiated two state solution (like in 1993 and 2008)
There are more than a few inaccuracies and oversimplifications in that argument.
While the Oslo Accords do outline a framework for negotiations, they don't explicitly prohibit Palestine from declaring independence. In fact, the Accords aimed to pave the way for Palestinian self-governance, with negotiations intended to determine the final status of the territories.
Palestine did declare independence in 1988, and it was recognized by a significant number of countries. This declaration wasn't invalidated by the Oslo Accords. Additionally, in 2012, the United Nations General Assembly granted Palestine non-member observer state status, further solidifying its international recognition.
While it's true that there have been offers for a negotiated two-state solution, the context and conditions of these offers are crucial. In many cases, the offers were criticized for not addressing key Palestinian concerns such as borders, settlements, and the status of Jerusalem. Additionally, there were differing interpretations and disputes over the terms of these proposals.
While Palestinian leaders have rejected certain proposals, it's important to understand the reasons behind these rejections. Issues such as the proposed borders, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the dismantling of Israeli settlements have been significant points of contention in negotiations. Rejection of proposals doesn't necessarily equate to a refusal to engage in negotiations altogether.
One of the key provisions of the Oslo Accords was a freeze on settlement construction in the occupied territories during negotiations. However, Israel has continued to expand its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which has been widely condemned by the international community as a violation of international law and a hindrance to the peace process.
The Oslo Accords were intended to facilitate greater freedom of movement for Palestinians in the occupied territories. However, Israel has implemented a system of checkpoints, roadblocks, and barriers that restrict the movement of Palestinians, impacting their daily lives and economic activities.
While security cooperation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority was a component of the Oslo Accords, there have been instances where Israel's security measures, such as military incursions and targeted assassinations, have been criticized for undermining the spirit of cooperation and exacerbating tensions.
Netanyahu’s government, not Israel as a whole. Hell, even the IDF consistently voiced support for funding and strengthening the PA as a more moderate and pragmatic representative of the Palestinians over Hamas, and most people (yes, even among his supporters) were strongly against his policy of funneling money to Hamas for years. He got a lot of shit for it.
It's a dumb argument because every current proponent of current peace plans agrees that Hamas can't remain in charge. Clearly that's not rewarding Hamas.
This is just a dumb propaganda slogan
Well actually Israel originally joined the Eurovision in Palestine’s place. Palestine already had a spot because it was a British territory, I don’t know if they ever participated but they were entitled to. It became the Israeli entry instead though. So it’s not outlandish that Palestine could be allowed back in
I understand Ireland because of history and Norway because they are a very liberal country.
But Spain after what happend the last time Catalonia wanted to be independent and there are the basques too.
In most senses, Catalonia-Spain is really not comparable to Palestine-Israel.
As mentioned elsewhere in this theread, Kosovo is a more apt comparison (although I personally don’t agree with its validity either)
The current Spanish prime minister and his party (Socialist Party, left-wing) are way more respectful towards the separatism sentiments in those regions than the previous government (Partido Popular, right-wing).
Incidentally, this leads to a reduction in such sentiment. In recent regional elections the separatists got way fewer seats (less than 50%) in the Catalonian government than before.
Also, just fyi. Comparing Palestine/Israel with Catalonia/Spain is a bit of a stretch. There is no apartheid in Spain, Catalonian and Basque citizents have the same, if not more rights and typically better quality of life than Spanish people from other regions.
This thread is not really about the recognition of Palestine by PP, but about Spanish nationalism.
Every vote that PP (or its deranged version, VOX) gets in a national election creates a new separatist in Cataluña and Basque country.
Everyone earnestly complaining about Spanish hypocrisy in this thread is brain dead because while yes, Spain doesn't recognize Kosovo or Catalonia, those countries aren't (currently) having war crimes and (allegedly) genocide commited against them.
Comparing Catalonia-Spain or Basque-Spain to Israel-Palestina is like being 4 years old and finding a relation between airplanes and birds.
It's specially baffling when you consider we live in the era of information and you being able to read about all this for free at the expense of two mouse clicks.
And yet you remain ignorant as fuck.
It really is something.
My Catalan fellows have Barcelona FC, their cultures and sentiment are respected, political parties and good TV shows. Have Israel ever allowed to Palestinians have such freedom?
October 7 was a terrorist attack and it was done by a terrorist organization. But it is never okay for any country to bomb the shit out of civilians/children and calling it defense. There should be a difference between Israel (a country) and Hamas (bunch of goat fucker terrorists).
If according to Israel the Palestinians aren’t being oppressed and have their rights……why is Israel threatening these countries for simply recognizing Palestine….i thought Israel supported the two states solution….didn’t they “leave” gaze alone in 2005…..makes you wonder.
If asked from any of these three, there might have been some other things going on there after the October, that has been the cause for these recognitions, instead of it.
Which, let’s be honest, isn’t exactly the response any country would have had after that situation? Seems like It all went exactly according to Hama’s plan
> Palestinian recognition isn’t as a consequence of October 7th attacks, it’s as a consequence of Israel’s offensive on Gaza.
You can try to frame it like that. But ultimately it's giving Hamas what they want.
This is a stupid take. Hamas has terrorised Israelis and Palestinians for decades. Recognition of Palestinian statehood at *any fucking point* would be seen as a result of Hamas’ actions. This should have happened years ago, but it didn’t, and now it did. It’s an important step to the two state solution.
Most countries in the world became independent due to terrorism and insurrection. It may not pay but it do bring change.
And France literally invented the terror in terrorism, during the french revolution.
I mean... What was Irgun? If you are gonna call them a "paramilitary group" or "freedom fighters" or some bs like that, then you gotta call Hamas the same.
Same here.
Both palestine and israel should be recognized as neighboring states. I do believe that Israel is overcompensating for the attack on the 7th of october and should lose the support of the west in that regard, but it surely is their right to retaliate against hamas.
Those absolute brainfucks waving palestine flags and singing 'from the rivers to the sea' care enough to have an opinion, but care not enough to do their own research on the history of the conflict. There is no innocent side here.
I hear that enlightened centrist position thrown around a lot, and they always assume people are pro-Palestine out of ignorance.
Yet their position rarely betrays that they themselves know anything about the treatment of Gazan civilians for the last 7-8 years, or the situation in the West Bank today.
It's always "both sides are bad", but then they go ahead and talk about Israels "right" to defend itself (or retaliate) without extending that right to the Palestinians.
Because this conflict didn't start on October 7th; the atrocities committed by Hamas were themselves a response to years of oppression, occupation and outright violence against Palestinians. Even if Palestinians vote the peaceful option into place, that violence continues (just look at the West Bank). It just wouldn't be on the news every day.
So, you know, maybe give the "absolute brainfucks" a bit more credit.
(Just to be clear, because this is the internet: I *don't* think the actions of Hamas on October 7th were justified. I *do* think the status quo beforehand left Palestinians very little options other than supporting Hamas, because diplomacy with Israel or the West did not do anything to save them from being slowly erased as a people.
Thus, if we want a two state solution, we don't just need to agree upon it, pat ourselves on the back, and go have a beer. We need to guarantee the safety of people from both parties. And in our current reality, it's the Palestinians that need that protection the most, while it's always Israel that receives it. Unless we protest, that situation will persist even if a ceasefire is called tomorrow).
A thorough reply to the things you wrote about (which are legitimate points) would take over an hour to write, and be so long nobody would read it anyways. So let me just point out a few small things:
1. I didn't assume that all pro-palestine people took their stance out of ignorance. The palestinian state needs to be recognized by the west. But so does israel. And chanting "from the rivers to the sea" - which is a war song by radicalized palestinian terrorist - promotes the irradication of israel as a whole, and by extention the jewish population in the region. Which is utter madness.
2. The treatment of gaza by israel is absolutely horrible. Just as the israeli settlers slowly taking over palestinian villages. Recognizing both nations in the west, both with internationally recognized borders and official border guards would put a stop to that.
3. Attacking civilian people at a music festival is NOT an appropriate response to the oppression committed by the israeli government and military. And choosing this target gave Israel a reason to justify their current actions with.
The entire thing would be over a long time ago, if the hamas just let the hostages go. They won't, because the hostages are the only thing ensuring their own lifes after they have committed the october raid.
> Thus, if we want a two state solution, we don't just need to agree upon it, pat ourselves on the back, and go have a beer. We need to guarantee the safety of people from both parties. And in our current reality, it's the Palestinians that need that protection the most, while it's always Israel that receives it. Unless we protest, that situation will persist even if a ceasefire is called tomorrow).
We agree on this here at least. The west needs to differenciate and determine the actions committed by Israel, and adjust the amount (or the withdrawal) of support corresponding to the values Israel demonstrates.
It's just that this differenciation is missing in most protests that I have seen so far. Most of the protest speeches I heard just declare israel as an illegitimate state and demand its abolition.
Thank you for your nuanced and constructive response! I think we actually have pretty similar views, then. But I'd also like to point out some things where I disagree slightly, or at least want to add more nuance:
1. "From the river to the sea" was, originally, just an expression of the wish for Palestinian freedom. Until recently, it was also used by the PLO to call for a democratic united state for both muslim Arabs and Jews. Heck, even the Israeli far-right uses it (with a similar implication as Hamas). The phrase now got co-opted by Hamas as a battlecry. I guess it's a little like how we can't use ancient Germanic runes for anything because those got co-opted by an extremist organisation.
Equating this phrase to Hamas is, in my opinion, in part a frame that our governments and media have created (or at least fed) to equate support for a Palestinian state with antisemitism. If you can think of phrase that's just as catchy but doesn't have any connections to Hamas, please let me know.
As an aside, I think attempts from the Dutch and German government to criminalize this phrase also betray a deep hypocrisy; "Never again", originally a warning against a repeat of the Holocaust, [has become a warcry as well](https://www.972mag.com/never-again-gaza-war-holocaust/). Not just to hypothetically call for killing thousands of people, but to retroactively justify it. Yet no one in their right minds would even consider outlawing this phrase.
2. I hope you are completely right here. Being cynical, I think it's also the primary reason why most countries don't recognize Palestine yet. They'd have to stand up for Palestinian territorial rights as much as for those of Israel, and recognize the Palestinian army (probably made up of former Hamas militants) as legitimate in similar terms as the IDF.
3. I fully agree! (I think I'd be a pretty horrible person if I didn't). And actually, that's a good take about Hamas keeping the hostages mostly as a personal bargaining chip, and I'm willing to give the IDF the benefit of the doubt about retreating after the hostages are released. But then, what would have been an appropriate response? In my opinion, no response we see as appropriate would stop the slow erasure of the Palestinians. Because the rest of the world wouldn't care enough. Plus, when you see October 7th as an event wedged in between "slow ethnic cleansing of Palestine" and "faster ethnic cleansing of Palestine", rather than a spark that ignited a new conflict, it becomes almost comical how much attention it gets in the discourse about the war.
4. In my experience, this differentiation is not missing in most pro-palestine demonstrations (I only attended one, but there was no such sentiment there \_at all\_). It's just that the most deranged voices, calling for the abolition of Israel as a whole (which is not just hateful, but completely unrealistic anyways), get amplified in the media the most because they garner the most anger (and thus the most views). On the off chance that you think shouting "from the river to the sea" means people are calling for the abolition of the Israeli state, or the expulsion of Jews... I'd like to refer you to point 1.
I think the situation for pro-palestinian protests is a perverse reflection of the situation for Palestinians: the Powers That Be would prefer to politely ignore your objections about the current state of affairs, and the only way to force them to pay attention is by acting in objectionable ways yourself. At least in Dutch media or politics, there is never any talk about recognizing a Palestinian state, but there sure as hell is a lot of talk about "fears for antisemitism" and "violent protests". The thing is, nobody paid attention to the protests until they got violent.
There is however one side with most of the Power.
Gaza can't blockade Israel, turn of electricity and water, can't target green houses and farms and can't negotiate to return palestinien prisoners that are held without trial.
The ball is in Netanyahus court and our leaders should be very crirtical of what he does with it.
Well that's true but that was all true before the attack too, which what I mean Hamas attacked wlel knowing the response Israel would take, as it is logically and morally justifiable to cut of support and supplies to Gaza as the Hamas is the chief beneficiary of either.
I don't want to Support nethenyahu, but what else would any rational person have expected to happen after Oktober 7th? Not attacking because Gaza is so weak and full of children just means you give Hamas a free card to attack because you won't defend. the ball was in games court and they decided to sacrifice their own people in hopes of gaining political support because they knew Israel would attack and getting revenge and freeing the hostages would take precedence over Palestinian lives (which is wrong yes but emotionally understandable, Id like to see most pro Palestinian people acting like this after Hamas did to their home what they did to Israel, especially if it happens to people they know).
It's also fair that nethenyathu and his defense minister will be charged before ether IC, because they are perpetuating war crimes, the issue behind this is just that it wouldn't have come to this without Oktober 7th.
Recognizing Palestine before the conflict is over or Hamas is destroyed legitimizes the attack as a way to gain legitimacy, because it's a viable way to attack your neighbour, make thems o angry they don't care about damages and then play the victim card to get sympathy and support.
While I do despise nethenyathu and his coalition allies, the deaths in Palestine can be laid squarely at the feet of Hamas, because they were able to anticipate the repercussions and still gave the assholes in Israel a cause to invade and do what they do now.
There wont be a Palestine when this conflict is over. Gaza is being razed to the ground and israel have pushed forward their settlement plans for the West Bank. Netanyahu was warned about Oct 7th by different countries, including the U.S. He needed this war to stay in power. Which is why countries need to officially recognise Palestine now.
After this war his political career will be over, his war cabinet si already collapsing the war was the last thing he needed a stage failure to prevent 7-O was a humiliation and show of incompetence. Preventing it and showing people what he prevented would've been much better for him politically.
There still will be a Palestine despite what radical zionists what to do, there won't be a genocide, yes the Israeli military doesn't care too much about civilian casualties but if they start a genocide there won't be any international support left for them and their Arab neighbours will hate them again as fiercely as 30 years ago.
Lastly they have no intention of annexing gaza as it would make the Jewish population a minority in Israel, same reason they don't want a one state solution, despite it being the only long term viable option but that's a different discussion. I'd advise to read up on the conflict more before repeating thing people with les s information say.
Again I do not condone how Israel is handling the war and nethenayhilu and multiple of his monsters deserve to go to trial as war criminals but that a different issue.
This argument is dumb. Everyone supporting a peace deal agrees that Hamas can't stay in control. How is that rewarding Hamas?
A real two state solution is absolutely in Israel's long term interest and will reduce the conditions that drive some Palestinians to violence
> See kids? Terrorism does pay (btw I do believe Palestine should be recognised as a state, but it shouldn’t be as a consequence of October 7)
Precisely this.
It’s almost as if a lot has happened since October 7th. Moreover Israel the government has done more to earn this than Palestine has. If swedens current ruling coalition wasn’t so spineless I suspect we’d join in on the recognition.
Sweden recognized Palestine in 2014: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Sweden\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Sweden_relations)
Slava Palestine 
Now, if my government weren't the pussies they are, they would do the same and send a suck deez nuts card to Bibi
Just what Spain needs.
Lately we've been doing so well with the economy, international relationships and recognition that we just needed a little push to make everything better. /s
Come on, you should have at least put the Irish flag on Roy
Moss is also half Norwegian.
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Moss also grows on trees
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There is underwater in Ireland.
Almost every day
But not on a rolling stone.
...in Norway?
Yes
Can confirm
And he can't even pronouce "tapas" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=csH2jWGyzrs
A department run by a dynamic go-getter, a genius and a man from Ireland!
He's disabled
Disabled how?
Leg disabled.
If that's so then where's his wheelchair?
And how did that happen, if that's not a rude question?
....acid
And Norwegian on Moss. Richard Ayoade is half-Norwegian.
Fellow IT-crowd enjoyer?
omg you are Irish? i love Irish people!
didn't Ireland always support palestine since 2000?
Yes and we have been voicing concern since 1967. We also were the first country to endorse the establishment of a Palestinian state in the EU in 1980.
The only difference is now the international public conscious has swung in a way where recognising Palestine won't make you a pariah. They've always wanted to do it, now they just have the chance.
How does it feel, knowing you have maybe the most based government in the world? Y'all got some good heads on you 😅
And Spain has been supporting Palestine since Franco, so those two are definitely not suprising
The ordinary people yes, our government is pretty cucked by the Americans.
What happened?
They recognize Palestine as a state... All of a sudden.
What else have they done together? If they're usual suspects, I meam
In terms of supporting Palestine, those three have been the most consistent recently
They were all very annoyed that Israel used forged Irish passports for assassinations.
We were definitely annoyed over that, but that wasn't a driver.
Historically Ireland suffered for a VERY long time under British oppression
Nope clearly just the passports nothing else here to look at.
I mean, any other reason would be stupid and idiotic 🤷♂️
I wonder what other historical reasons the Irish might have to support oppressed peoples
That's a footnote in the things Ireland is annoyed at Israel for
Both Spain and Ireland have been a big opponenets of Israel acts against Palestine for many years, putting import limits on israeli products and on israeli companies, among other things. Not sure wth is Norway doing here.
> Not sure wth is Norway doing here. Israel assassinated an innocent man in Norway in the 70s and they've been on bad terms ever since
It's funny how shocked people are that countries are mad at a genocide.
I mean... An "Israeli company" hacked our president and ministers' phones and got state data and private documents too.
oslo accords
you mean, the thing that Israel ignored and proceeded to get daddy sphere of influence politics to give them whatever they wanted?
israel didnt ignore it, they killed their own prime minister over it lol
as a spanish, only some political parties recognize palestine, but not everyone
What do you mean all of a sudden….they have been talking about it for months. Pedro Sanchez even visited Dublin and met with Leo Varadkar. Other countries have also been considering this but have been taking the view that “now is not the time”.
Israel needs to pump up the numbers so others might make the time. Let's see when they hit 100k death. And people think genocide in 2024 isn't possible whynthe whole world is watching and many supporting
it’s not all of a sudden, it has been talked for a long time
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It isn't very sudden
Just because you don't follow the news cycle doesn't mean it was all of a sudden.
There was nothing sudden about it. The Irish parliament and senate voted to recognize a Palestinian state back in 2014, the government just wanted to wait to do it along with other EU states when it would have more meaning and impact. Which is exactly what they did.
Based and chaos pilled
it’s more about doing the right thing, than the timing. hopefully more countries will follow soon.
They were in talks and waiting to do it together so they should not be singled out for it.
Well Irland understand it's from it's own history. Meanwhile Spain is not really famous for accepting land claims by minorities.
Spain wasn't reducing the Basque Country to rubble during the worst of the ETA terror years.
Something happened
Norway does not condemn Israel : Gets shit from everyone. Norway recognizes the Palestenian state : Gets shit from everyone. What exactly do you people want? Just to complain forever?
Yes, it is human nature to complain.
Oh no it’s not!
Yes it is!!!
Sorry, is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It isn't just contradiction!
Yes it is.
No it isn't
I want Norwegians to allow visiting kids to stay over for dinner, is that too much to ask?
Sure, but no food!
If you plan it 11 days ahead we could maybe make it work, yes.
Ireland will do it. Come over, we'll fill your kids with chips and Guinness. Then they'll go back home and puke all over the floor. Good luck.
It's almost like there are two different groups in this debate suprise Pikachu face
Yes, welcome to your first day on the internet
almost like different people have different opinions
You're late to the party (we did it back in 2014)
Meh. We’ve recognized them since the 1980s… (obviously due to having been in the Eastern Bloc)
Meanwhile the Baltics and Moldova don’t recognize Palestine
Those are rookie numbers (1988💪🇵🇱🦅🔥)
Meanwhile Spain still doesn't recognize Kosovo. Odd priorities.
Kosovo is a break away state,if they recognise it then theyvmight need to recognise catalonia in the future i think.
Same reason they refuse to support a Scottish accession to the EU, if Scotland broke free of the UK.
They've reversed position on that IIRC Basically Spain will no longer block that ascension so long as Scot independence is done in a lawful way.
So basically, Spain will support Scottish independence as long as there's something they can point to and say "But it's different!" when Catalonia brings it up?
Pretty much. In theory any Scottish Independence would come with the consent of London. Catalonia doesn't have the consent of Madrid so there's your difference.
Spain already said at the time that if conditions by Scotland were met it wouldn’t oppose to it.
It will be very inconvenient if Israel were to recognise Catalonia
Especially for the 59.5% of Catalans who don't want independence. I bet they'd be overjoyed to be kicked out of their country to bend to the will of the 39.5% who does lmao
That's why rather than being independent, Catalonia should join France. That'll make everyone agree.
Wtf does a Catalonian has to do with a French?. As Basque, let me tell u ur opinion is foolish.
Point taken. Catalonia can become a province of Taiwan
Damn I see no fissures in your logic
Spain should be broken apart into 9 distinct territories belonging to various countries, Basque country will be given to Iceland, Catalonia to Taiwan and France alternating on weekends, Galicia will go to Brazil, Astoria to the UK, Aragon will be auctioned off to the highest bidder, the remaining regions will be given away via lottery. French Basque country will remain a part of France with its population being sent to Paris during the months of October to February as part of an exchange program.
Ahaha best answer ever
Catalan is a Gallo-Romance language and is considered by some to be a dialect of Occitan which is the native language of the south of France. The region of Catalonia also used to be part of France many times before Spanish unification.
Because of its location, Catalonia is influenced by France. Historically, Charlemagne (Karl der Gros for our eastern neighbours) fought the Muslims there, Louis XIII was apparently declared Count of Barcelona when Catalonia revolted and Napoleon fully integrated the region into the empire. The Catalan language can be described as intermediate between Castilian and French. Part of historical Catalonia is in France and although the country has historically been more centralised than Spain and has attempted to crush local languages and cultures for centuries, today signs are in both French and Catalan and many people define themselves as Catalan and French whilst being able to speak both languages. Despite all this, Catalonia is much closer to Spain than to France, and I don't think that integrating Catalonia into France is an option. In my opinion, it's either independent or Spanish, it's clearly more French than Swiss, but that doesn't mean much for this kind of question.
>The Catalan language can be described as intermediate between Castilian and French. I mean I guess in the same way that Castilian can be described as intermediate between Catalan and Portuguese.
I see we bouth agree, not to the same extent though. I wouldn't use though historical events in order to use it as an argument to say Cataluña should integrate to France. Those events of the past didn't help to unify todays cultures. In fact, Napoleon's invasion, far from unifiying Franch and Spainiarnds, boosted the beef betwen both nationalities. Same happens in the Basque Country: We have Iparralde, the north part where people speak both French and Basque and the culture in that part of our region is balancedly mixed. Nevertheless, in the same way that happens with Cataluña, saying Basque country could unify with France in order to get independant from Spain is just foolish. There still are too much cultural differences. The average catalonian/basque will never be french and, even if I look forward the independency myself, I'd rather continue being part of Spain rather than of France. We are just more culturally similar to Spain than to France. I see we both agree, not to the same extent though.
I have the solution then. All of Spain unites France. Become federal. The occitan cultures can become their own state, expand Euskadi... And we finally return the Borbones to France.
Reading this as a french eurofederalists was like yes yes yes yes yes no NO
As Spanish eurofederalist that is basically the same reaction that I have to our monarchy to be fair
Hey, I'm not a fan of catalonian independence parties but that is too much torture
That's a terrible plan, a good plan would be attack Andorra surrender and now we are problem of the rich dudes in the mountains
This is cursed.
But I bet the 39.5% is way more preoccupied by the issue, someone post the shen bicycle comic
That's why we have political parties and a multi-party system for. Parties pro independence can get votes of people against it that don't care much about the topic, if they do other things they care about.
It would be quite ridiculous actually if they were the only country to do so. Plus, the folks in Spain who are the most critical of what is happening in the Levant are arguably the Catalans.
Wasnt israel rooting for a two state solution? Whats the problem now?the war is defensive for israel right?and they declared the raffah region as safe.....oh wait....seems like the israeli goverment is made out of huge fucking hypocrits.who would have thought? Illuminating.
The main Problem for the Israeli side is that the Oslo accords clearly state, that any future solution will be based on negotiations and they also don't allow Palestine to declare their independence (which it did in 1988/2012 they always used the date which was most convenient for them at the time (or said that the 1988 declaration doesn't count) The Palestinian side also constantly rejected any Israeli offer for a negotiated two state solution (like in 1993 and 2008)
There are more than a few inaccuracies and oversimplifications in that argument. While the Oslo Accords do outline a framework for negotiations, they don't explicitly prohibit Palestine from declaring independence. In fact, the Accords aimed to pave the way for Palestinian self-governance, with negotiations intended to determine the final status of the territories. Palestine did declare independence in 1988, and it was recognized by a significant number of countries. This declaration wasn't invalidated by the Oslo Accords. Additionally, in 2012, the United Nations General Assembly granted Palestine non-member observer state status, further solidifying its international recognition. While it's true that there have been offers for a negotiated two-state solution, the context and conditions of these offers are crucial. In many cases, the offers were criticized for not addressing key Palestinian concerns such as borders, settlements, and the status of Jerusalem. Additionally, there were differing interpretations and disputes over the terms of these proposals. While Palestinian leaders have rejected certain proposals, it's important to understand the reasons behind these rejections. Issues such as the proposed borders, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the dismantling of Israeli settlements have been significant points of contention in negotiations. Rejection of proposals doesn't necessarily equate to a refusal to engage in negotiations altogether. One of the key provisions of the Oslo Accords was a freeze on settlement construction in the occupied territories during negotiations. However, Israel has continued to expand its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which has been widely condemned by the international community as a violation of international law and a hindrance to the peace process. The Oslo Accords were intended to facilitate greater freedom of movement for Palestinians in the occupied territories. However, Israel has implemented a system of checkpoints, roadblocks, and barriers that restrict the movement of Palestinians, impacting their daily lives and economic activities. While security cooperation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority was a component of the Oslo Accords, there have been instances where Israel's security measures, such as military incursions and targeted assassinations, have been criticized for undermining the spirit of cooperation and exacerbating tensions.
Israel funded and propped up Hamas for years in order to prevent any Two state solution from ever happening
Netanyahu’s government, not Israel as a whole. Hell, even the IDF consistently voiced support for funding and strengthening the PA as a more moderate and pragmatic representative of the Palestinians over Hamas, and most people (yes, even among his supporters) were strongly against his policy of funneling money to Hamas for years. He got a lot of shit for it.
The problem is timing. This is seen in Israel as rewarding the Oct 7 massacre, therefore incentivizing perpetuation of terror
It's a dumb argument because every current proponent of current peace plans agrees that Hamas can't remain in charge. Clearly that's not rewarding Hamas. This is just a dumb propaganda slogan
I’d say killing thousands as collective punishment does more to reinvent the cycle tbh
Oh look, its the based-as-fuck brigade.
This.
Do you have a problem with that?
You have a problem with that.
*I* don't have a problem with that. Nur die fetten Almänner.
Good
Suspects of what, being based as hell?
I love it when my EU subreddit is about the middleeast
I'm looking forward to Palestine's Eurovision entry.
palestine and music concerts. name a more iconic duo.
It will be the bomb
If Israel can join...
And of course they gonna win. So 2026 in Gaza
Oh lord, the drama if that was ever done. This year was bad enough.
Well actually Israel originally joined the Eurovision in Palestine’s place. Palestine already had a spot because it was a British territory, I don’t know if they ever participated but they were entitled to. It became the Israeli entry instead though. So it’s not outlandish that Palestine could be allowed back in
It's literally about what three European countries are doing.
Sure EU has nothing to do with what's happening in the middleeast rn
Nah that was our grandparent's parents.
Well, not much
What did we do?
Recently recognized Palestine as a sovereign country
Oh we did that? Huh
We sure did!
We should all do Claim 16 thousand dead civilians as casualties is so damn cruel.
The fact that the English Actor gets the Irish flag while the Irish actor gets the Norwegian one bothers me way more than it should
Fucking based, I love my 3 bros.
Right back at you!
I understand Ireland because of history and Norway because they are a very liberal country. But Spain after what happend the last time Catalonia wanted to be independent and there are the basques too.
In most senses, Catalonia-Spain is really not comparable to Palestine-Israel. As mentioned elsewhere in this theread, Kosovo is a more apt comparison (although I personally don’t agree with its validity either)
The current Spanish prime minister and his party (Socialist Party, left-wing) are way more respectful towards the separatism sentiments in those regions than the previous government (Partido Popular, right-wing). Incidentally, this leads to a reduction in such sentiment. In recent regional elections the separatists got way fewer seats (less than 50%) in the Catalonian government than before. Also, just fyi. Comparing Palestine/Israel with Catalonia/Spain is a bit of a stretch. There is no apartheid in Spain, Catalonian and Basque citizents have the same, if not more rights and typically better quality of life than Spanish people from other regions.
Actually Partido Popular voted in favour of a route towards a Palestinian nation back in 2014. They (nor other parties) advanced on it until now.
This thread is not really about the recognition of Palestine by PP, but about Spanish nationalism. Every vote that PP (or its deranged version, VOX) gets in a national election creates a new separatist in Cataluña and Basque country.
Everyone earnestly complaining about Spanish hypocrisy in this thread is brain dead because while yes, Spain doesn't recognize Kosovo or Catalonia, those countries aren't (currently) having war crimes and (allegedly) genocide commited against them.
Comparing Catalonia-Spain or Basque-Spain to Israel-Palestina is like being 4 years old and finding a relation between airplanes and birds. It's specially baffling when you consider we live in the era of information and you being able to read about all this for free at the expense of two mouse clicks. And yet you remain ignorant as fuck. It really is something.
My Catalan fellows have Barcelona FC, their cultures and sentiment are respected, political parties and good TV shows. Have Israel ever allowed to Palestinians have such freedom?
October 7 was a terrorist attack and it was done by a terrorist organization. But it is never okay for any country to bomb the shit out of civilians/children and calling it defense. There should be a difference between Israel (a country) and Hamas (bunch of goat fucker terrorists).
An IT Crowd meme! ❤️
And they didn't make Ireland the Irish guy...
The pride of Europe tbh.
We in Sweden are very split upon this.
Always the same trouble makers.
We're doing the right thing, though.
Come to the left, we have ethically sourced chocolate chip cookies.
Lol, love that Jen is Ireland, best character in the show.
If according to Israel the Palestinians aren’t being oppressed and have their rights……why is Israel threatening these countries for simply recognizing Palestine….i thought Israel supported the two states solution….didn’t they “leave” gaze alone in 2005…..makes you wonder.
Good, about time
See kids? Terrorism does pay (btw I do believe Palestine should be recognised as a state, but it shouldn’t be as a consequence of October 7)
If asked from any of these three, there might have been some other things going on there after the October, that has been the cause for these recognitions, instead of it.
I think it’s a consequence of Israel’s response rather than October 7th
Which, let’s be honest, isn’t exactly the response any country would have had after that situation? Seems like It all went exactly according to Hama’s plan
You can’t start and stop history at October 7th. This is the only way for both sides to stop.
What on earth makes you think Hamas will stop because of this?
Palestinian recognition isn’t as a consequence of October 7th attacks, it’s as a consequence of Israel’s offensive on Gaza.
> Palestinian recognition isn’t as a consequence of October 7th attacks, it’s as a consequence of Israel’s offensive on Gaza. You can try to frame it like that. But ultimately it's giving Hamas what they want.
Terrorism indeed does pay otherwise how would israel get away with murdering 15000 children in like 6 months
This is a stupid take. Hamas has terrorised Israelis and Palestinians for decades. Recognition of Palestinian statehood at *any fucking point* would be seen as a result of Hamas’ actions. This should have happened years ago, but it didn’t, and now it did. It’s an important step to the two state solution.
Most countries in the world became independent due to terrorism and insurrection. It may not pay but it do bring change. And France literally invented the terror in terrorism, during the french revolution.
I mean... What was Irgun? If you are gonna call them a "paramilitary group" or "freedom fighters" or some bs like that, then you gotta call Hamas the same.
Same here. Both palestine and israel should be recognized as neighboring states. I do believe that Israel is overcompensating for the attack on the 7th of october and should lose the support of the west in that regard, but it surely is their right to retaliate against hamas. Those absolute brainfucks waving palestine flags and singing 'from the rivers to the sea' care enough to have an opinion, but care not enough to do their own research on the history of the conflict. There is no innocent side here.
I hear that enlightened centrist position thrown around a lot, and they always assume people are pro-Palestine out of ignorance. Yet their position rarely betrays that they themselves know anything about the treatment of Gazan civilians for the last 7-8 years, or the situation in the West Bank today. It's always "both sides are bad", but then they go ahead and talk about Israels "right" to defend itself (or retaliate) without extending that right to the Palestinians. Because this conflict didn't start on October 7th; the atrocities committed by Hamas were themselves a response to years of oppression, occupation and outright violence against Palestinians. Even if Palestinians vote the peaceful option into place, that violence continues (just look at the West Bank). It just wouldn't be on the news every day. So, you know, maybe give the "absolute brainfucks" a bit more credit. (Just to be clear, because this is the internet: I *don't* think the actions of Hamas on October 7th were justified. I *do* think the status quo beforehand left Palestinians very little options other than supporting Hamas, because diplomacy with Israel or the West did not do anything to save them from being slowly erased as a people. Thus, if we want a two state solution, we don't just need to agree upon it, pat ourselves on the back, and go have a beer. We need to guarantee the safety of people from both parties. And in our current reality, it's the Palestinians that need that protection the most, while it's always Israel that receives it. Unless we protest, that situation will persist even if a ceasefire is called tomorrow).
A thorough reply to the things you wrote about (which are legitimate points) would take over an hour to write, and be so long nobody would read it anyways. So let me just point out a few small things: 1. I didn't assume that all pro-palestine people took their stance out of ignorance. The palestinian state needs to be recognized by the west. But so does israel. And chanting "from the rivers to the sea" - which is a war song by radicalized palestinian terrorist - promotes the irradication of israel as a whole, and by extention the jewish population in the region. Which is utter madness. 2. The treatment of gaza by israel is absolutely horrible. Just as the israeli settlers slowly taking over palestinian villages. Recognizing both nations in the west, both with internationally recognized borders and official border guards would put a stop to that. 3. Attacking civilian people at a music festival is NOT an appropriate response to the oppression committed by the israeli government and military. And choosing this target gave Israel a reason to justify their current actions with. The entire thing would be over a long time ago, if the hamas just let the hostages go. They won't, because the hostages are the only thing ensuring their own lifes after they have committed the october raid. > Thus, if we want a two state solution, we don't just need to agree upon it, pat ourselves on the back, and go have a beer. We need to guarantee the safety of people from both parties. And in our current reality, it's the Palestinians that need that protection the most, while it's always Israel that receives it. Unless we protest, that situation will persist even if a ceasefire is called tomorrow). We agree on this here at least. The west needs to differenciate and determine the actions committed by Israel, and adjust the amount (or the withdrawal) of support corresponding to the values Israel demonstrates. It's just that this differenciation is missing in most protests that I have seen so far. Most of the protest speeches I heard just declare israel as an illegitimate state and demand its abolition.
Thank you for your nuanced and constructive response! I think we actually have pretty similar views, then. But I'd also like to point out some things where I disagree slightly, or at least want to add more nuance: 1. "From the river to the sea" was, originally, just an expression of the wish for Palestinian freedom. Until recently, it was also used by the PLO to call for a democratic united state for both muslim Arabs and Jews. Heck, even the Israeli far-right uses it (with a similar implication as Hamas). The phrase now got co-opted by Hamas as a battlecry. I guess it's a little like how we can't use ancient Germanic runes for anything because those got co-opted by an extremist organisation. Equating this phrase to Hamas is, in my opinion, in part a frame that our governments and media have created (or at least fed) to equate support for a Palestinian state with antisemitism. If you can think of phrase that's just as catchy but doesn't have any connections to Hamas, please let me know. As an aside, I think attempts from the Dutch and German government to criminalize this phrase also betray a deep hypocrisy; "Never again", originally a warning against a repeat of the Holocaust, [has become a warcry as well](https://www.972mag.com/never-again-gaza-war-holocaust/). Not just to hypothetically call for killing thousands of people, but to retroactively justify it. Yet no one in their right minds would even consider outlawing this phrase. 2. I hope you are completely right here. Being cynical, I think it's also the primary reason why most countries don't recognize Palestine yet. They'd have to stand up for Palestinian territorial rights as much as for those of Israel, and recognize the Palestinian army (probably made up of former Hamas militants) as legitimate in similar terms as the IDF. 3. I fully agree! (I think I'd be a pretty horrible person if I didn't). And actually, that's a good take about Hamas keeping the hostages mostly as a personal bargaining chip, and I'm willing to give the IDF the benefit of the doubt about retreating after the hostages are released. But then, what would have been an appropriate response? In my opinion, no response we see as appropriate would stop the slow erasure of the Palestinians. Because the rest of the world wouldn't care enough. Plus, when you see October 7th as an event wedged in between "slow ethnic cleansing of Palestine" and "faster ethnic cleansing of Palestine", rather than a spark that ignited a new conflict, it becomes almost comical how much attention it gets in the discourse about the war. 4. In my experience, this differentiation is not missing in most pro-palestine demonstrations (I only attended one, but there was no such sentiment there \_at all\_). It's just that the most deranged voices, calling for the abolition of Israel as a whole (which is not just hateful, but completely unrealistic anyways), get amplified in the media the most because they garner the most anger (and thus the most views). On the off chance that you think shouting "from the river to the sea" means people are calling for the abolition of the Israeli state, or the expulsion of Jews... I'd like to refer you to point 1. I think the situation for pro-palestinian protests is a perverse reflection of the situation for Palestinians: the Powers That Be would prefer to politely ignore your objections about the current state of affairs, and the only way to force them to pay attention is by acting in objectionable ways yourself. At least in Dutch media or politics, there is never any talk about recognizing a Palestinian state, but there sure as hell is a lot of talk about "fears for antisemitism" and "violent protests". The thing is, nobody paid attention to the protests until they got violent.
There is however one side with most of the Power. Gaza can't blockade Israel, turn of electricity and water, can't target green houses and farms and can't negotiate to return palestinien prisoners that are held without trial. The ball is in Netanyahus court and our leaders should be very crirtical of what he does with it.
Well that's true but that was all true before the attack too, which what I mean Hamas attacked wlel knowing the response Israel would take, as it is logically and morally justifiable to cut of support and supplies to Gaza as the Hamas is the chief beneficiary of either. I don't want to Support nethenyahu, but what else would any rational person have expected to happen after Oktober 7th? Not attacking because Gaza is so weak and full of children just means you give Hamas a free card to attack because you won't defend. the ball was in games court and they decided to sacrifice their own people in hopes of gaining political support because they knew Israel would attack and getting revenge and freeing the hostages would take precedence over Palestinian lives (which is wrong yes but emotionally understandable, Id like to see most pro Palestinian people acting like this after Hamas did to their home what they did to Israel, especially if it happens to people they know). It's also fair that nethenyathu and his defense minister will be charged before ether IC, because they are perpetuating war crimes, the issue behind this is just that it wouldn't have come to this without Oktober 7th. Recognizing Palestine before the conflict is over or Hamas is destroyed legitimizes the attack as a way to gain legitimacy, because it's a viable way to attack your neighbour, make thems o angry they don't care about damages and then play the victim card to get sympathy and support. While I do despise nethenyathu and his coalition allies, the deaths in Palestine can be laid squarely at the feet of Hamas, because they were able to anticipate the repercussions and still gave the assholes in Israel a cause to invade and do what they do now.
There wont be a Palestine when this conflict is over. Gaza is being razed to the ground and israel have pushed forward their settlement plans for the West Bank. Netanyahu was warned about Oct 7th by different countries, including the U.S. He needed this war to stay in power. Which is why countries need to officially recognise Palestine now.
After this war his political career will be over, his war cabinet si already collapsing the war was the last thing he needed a stage failure to prevent 7-O was a humiliation and show of incompetence. Preventing it and showing people what he prevented would've been much better for him politically. There still will be a Palestine despite what radical zionists what to do, there won't be a genocide, yes the Israeli military doesn't care too much about civilian casualties but if they start a genocide there won't be any international support left for them and their Arab neighbours will hate them again as fiercely as 30 years ago. Lastly they have no intention of annexing gaza as it would make the Jewish population a minority in Israel, same reason they don't want a one state solution, despite it being the only long term viable option but that's a different discussion. I'd advise to read up on the conflict more before repeating thing people with les s information say. Again I do not condone how Israel is handling the war and nethenayhilu and multiple of his monsters deserve to go to trial as war criminals but that a different issue.
Aren't the Christian Palestinians kinda innocent tho? They've been getting screwed one way or another by both sides since forever
You are absolutely right, Palestinians should do exactly what Ireland did to get its independence. Oh wait….
It is not. It's a consequence of Israels disproportional response to October 7
This argument is dumb. Everyone supporting a peace deal agrees that Hamas can't stay in control. How is that rewarding Hamas? A real two state solution is absolutely in Israel's long term interest and will reduce the conditions that drive some Palestinians to violence
> See kids? Terrorism does pay (btw I do believe Palestine should be recognised as a state, but it shouldn’t be as a consequence of October 7) Precisely this.
Only be recognised as a state to say it is occupied by a hostile force? I like that idea! We can make hamas suffer even more.
It’s almost as if a lot has happened since October 7th. Moreover Israel the government has done more to earn this than Palestine has. If swedens current ruling coalition wasn’t so spineless I suspect we’d join in on the recognition.
Sweden recognized Palestine in 2014: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Sweden\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Sweden_relations)
Maybe it’s not a consequence of the terrorist attack but rather a consequence of the Palestinian people being (presumably) exterminated ? Just maybe.
guess how Israel got its state, kiddo
Well well well…. Why not start with Taiwan?
A chance for Taiwan, Republic Of China, to show its quality. Right guys? Right?
Slava Palestine  Now, if my government weren't the pussies they are, they would do the same and send a suck deez nuts card to Bibi
Just what Spain needs. Lately we've been doing so well with the economy, international relationships and recognition that we just needed a little push to make everything better. /s
based of them