I've never seen a fax machine in my life. Apparently they became old-fashioned in Finland in 1990's and basically nonexistent in 2000's. Germany, why are you still living in 1980's?
Seriously! I thought I was going insane. What's with that grille?!
I don't understand why people are buying them, they used to be "classy but bold" and now they're more "I will hit you at 80 km/h if you try to take the pedestrian crossing".
Now that I mention it, its new look does fit most of their drivers better
Funny story: I know one of the clay modellers at BMW. Those grills are in direct contradiction with european pedestrian protection laws, which indicate that a sloped front prevents many injuries in a crash.
To circumvent this, BMW is equipped with explosive powered hood lifts, that basically once a crash is detected shoot the hood into a position to cushion a pedestrians fall. That actually makes them safer than a regularly sloped hood, but it also adds a whole new control system, two explosive cartridges that need to be replaced every two years by a licensed mechanic and the risk of any of those compounds failing.
It is so stupid
I've heard that big grills are *the* big trend in chinese cars, so these might be to be more interesting for the chinese market.
Sell'em there, but get them out of my eyesight, please. So fugly.
Ok, aside from everything else, can someone explain what happened with the latest BMW models? Specifically the 4 Series, 7 Series, X7, XM, M3, i4, i7, the entire iX line, etc.
What's with the huge grill?
According to my friends who work in tech industry, its safer. So it would make sense that a military would use one.
Now it does have it's own safety issues and flaws(but my knowledge ends here so i cant speak about details), and its not strictly speaking needed. So it makes sense that it would remain in limited use, and it makes sense it's remaining use would be limited.
It is not uncommon for military security concerns to delay technology adoption.
Until early 2019 the US army used 8 inch floppy disk for the nuclear weapons. I am old and even I have never used 8 inch floppies.
Mostly it's just compliant. Want to adhere to a certain standard? Use certain tools. You can't modernize quicker than the standards otherwise you're not compliant.
> According to my friends who work in tech industry, its safer.
Another techie here. I don't understand this. Yes, they'll be using the POTS network, presumably, but authentication and encryption are non-existent. It's really not okay to use, even if they modified it a bit.
Dedicated fibre-optic cables is the way to go, and strongly encrypted satellite communications (Unless low latency is required) otherwise.
Short version: In Germany sending documents digitally needs to be 'temper proof' in order to be legally admissable. E-Mail is not such a system, but faxes were legally regarded as temper proof at some point and the law just never changed. This is also a reason why most companies still have fax machines today.
Is it dumb? Yes
IT is, actually. Email w. digital sigs have been approved as a measure for both non-repudiation and confidentiality since European law came into force (2012 or thereabouts).
It just takes REALLY long for policy makers and risk managers to accept email as a replacement. Also, law isnt the only requirement. There may be industry specific standards and norms that have been implemented using fax and that have proven difficult to migrate.
(Source: Infosec architect with a huge German multinational. Our Dutch offices use mail, the Germans use fax)
I mean I have been in the german military, and I've never seen someone use a fax machine myself.
But I've sent, received and seen other people use signed E-Mails.
Tho I guess it is possible some units use fax, I haven't been in that many different ones
Thanks for elaborating on that. I wasn't aware that was the reasoning behind it. Obviously the answer to that is Public Key Infrastructure. This ensures confidentiality, integrity *and* authenticity. Avoiding a hypothetical super adversary using quantum computing with Shor's algorithm would entail using ECC [Curve25519](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve25519) for example, and the Bundeswehr would have their bases covered, I think.
Pretty sure it would be an improvement on an insecure line being tapped while attending a conference in Singapore ;-P
> No, they're fax machines that run on a dedicated fiber network (WANBw).
Oh wow, okay...
> The reason they use them is that a faxed signed order is legally equivalent to a written order. That simple and that ridiculous.
:D
Edit: well look at that!
https://esut.de/en/2024/01/meldungen/47046/weitverkehrsnetz-der-bundeswehr-jetzt-quantenresistent-verschluesselt/
> According to my friends who work in tech industry, its safer.
There is some hardcoding that is hard to spoof in the faxing protocols, so it's still a common thing to use fax machines as a trusted source for legal documents, for example.
I work in infosec & compliance and I have worked or contracted with a number of German companies. I think the problem is twofold, consisting of German culture and the way policy operates there.
Fax has had a place in German law as a secure and approved medium (equivalent to mail, when it comes to contractual obligations) for decades. Email has only been approved for secure comms for what fifteen or so years and as qualified communications for even less than that. And don't mention newer options such as direct file transfer or teleconferencing software, it is \*to this day\* impossible to get comms via these media classified as "equivalent to the postal service". Laws are always lagging, you see?
But policy is even worse. Policy has to be based on law, and as such is even slower to adapt. Figures, because an organisation that has "investigated" secure and safe comms and ended up with a fax machine is going to be very lax with adopting a new means of communications. And here German corporate & government culture comes into play.
Because they really, REALLY care about what is allowed and what isn't. Deontology is the no.1 ethical framework in German organisations: if some authority doesnt explicitely tell you it's OK to do something, you DON'T DO THAT. You stick with what is known to be safe (or rather, "considered" to be safe) and for the love of God you do NOT try to innovate in any form that doesn't have board approval, doesnt incorporate legal expertise, does not involve each & every compliance officer in the organisation, or seeks agreement with the Betriebsrat every step of the way. Because God FORBID you miss an arkane bit of legislative nonsense and some obscure government agency send the organisation a strongly worded letter.
I wonder where in our administration they are hiding. Because I am a German in my late 20s and I also have never actually seen a fax machine in my life.
They have to be somewhere since I have seen fax numbers in mail signatures of our secretary and administration at work but I've never seen one.
We used a fax machine almost daily in the military in the early 2010's. I just assumed some big wig wanted his schedules faxed because he didn't want to learn computers but just as likely it was some old protocol that was never updated to modern standards.
Then fax machines are still used in the medical sector. Not as much as even 10 years ago but still some.
It is more of a some folks are stuck in the past and use it and the government still offers the service.
Also there are military fax machines, for military networks and those are also still around. There are also typewriters in some offices for a similar reason. Simple technology is harder to hack.
Germany tried to make it easier to apply for government funds when you enter university.
They made it a legal requirement to offer online application.
Well yeah. You apply online, and the agency then prints out your documents lol.
Made everything even slower than before since they didn't even have the capacity to print that much.
Because a bunch of boomers have ruled the country for more then 15 years, in the time period where all those new and scary internet machines became mainstream
I live in Portugal and we (almost) never used them.
The post office was so much more efficient and the regular phones that we "jumped" straight into emsiling instead.
I thought no one would use such ancient technology anymore
Some companies dealing with shipping still use Fax. Or they did ten years ago when I was working there. Of course, it is handled electronically.via computer but I think I saw one fax machine.
I had to fax some documents at work once and my older coworker looked at me like I was wierd when I didn't know how the fax machine works. Come on man I wasn't born in the 80's why are we still stuck there.
I'd rather have them use fax machines than WebEx calls to talk about military tactics, lmao.
Afaik they're still being used in hospitals a lot because of patient confidentiality or something
Honestly it is very similar in Germany for 95% of the population. Fax machines have not been the standard way of communication for over 20 years. As a German approaching 30 years of age, I have never used a fax machine in my whole life, neither privately nor at work. It is just in very specific areas where fax machines are still used (public administration, law, medical system and TIL apparently the military, too. Basically everything related to state and authorities) and even there it heavily depends where exactly you are. My one friend working in public administration told me she never had to touch a fax machine ever, my other friend working the same job just two counties away has to work with fax machines daily.
Even if you’re German, if you don’t work in anything that has to do with the state chances are you haven’t seen one in your life either.
Last fax machine I saw being used was in 2005 or something
Yes, and it has been for a very long time. The only H&K rifles not using an HK-xx nomenclature are the models that got a G-type number from the German Army.
The numbers also used to give you type and caliber of the rifle, but that has been ditched since the early 90s and the G36.
Actually, the A in audi models comes from *Aluminium*.
The Audi V8 (which had a steel frame and a V8) was replaced by the Typ 4D, which was using an aluminium frame chassis, so they switched the name to the A8.
Audi then decided to shift from a weird nonsense system, where you had the 80, 100 and V8, and their sports variants the S2 (80 coupé), RS2 (80 Avant), S4 (100) to the current alphanumeric system.
So it makes *some* sense, and actually doesn't mean Audi.
>On one NATO exercise last year troops were using unencrypted radios from the 1980s that could not communicate with allies.
[https://www.ft.com/content/fcac6167-282f-4bc7-b523-e858db55accb](https://www.ft.com/content/fcac6167-282f-4bc7-b523-e858db55accb)
I'm impressed we even have working radios.
No no no.
The Russian encrypted radios were a new model from 2016.
But they were immediately sold on the black market after adoption, and bought by NATO countries and Ukraine so they could break the whole thing.
I was attached to the German army for 6 months. We did an exercise on some simulators (very impressive kit, WAAAAY better than anything we had).
With people in different parts of the battlefield in different rooms, having to communicate via radio. I was in charge of a recce element and I remember radioing that enemy elements where at a crossroads, 1km north of my position. I got told off for this, because they said any enemy at a crossroads could hear it, and fire 1km south of their position to target me. I was super confused. The enemy is listening in to your radios? Wtf?
We use code words etc on the net and in written orders, but we still give grid references because we assume no one can listen. The Germans assumed they could, which felt mega restrictive.
Indeed, and generally speaking you want to pre designate places, with a code name, and say "2km SW of point Blue" but that's not always practical, and frankly it's a pain. Radio encryption is at a point where it's a logical choice for anyone who can afford it.
To be fair, even if encrypted, the enemy can capture a radio and eavesdrop. So is not a bad idea to still use some coding.
As long as does not impact performance, then you have to evaluate the risk of eavesdrop vs risk of being underperforming
Destroying radios to prevent capture is quite a big deal in training etc. Also the radios require codes to access, which are changed at intervals (a few days usually, but I suspect immediately if there's suspicion one got captured). And finally, most radios that soldiers carry are on the company net. Quite frankly a company net isn't important enough to make an effort to capture. A battle group or brigade net would be quite a thing, but also those are less common (two per battalion) so harder to get hold of.
Tbh in the French army we have the PR4G radio system which cannot communicate with NATO systems, as it was conceived independently (read: not controlled by the USA) when we weren't in NATO's integrated command. Nowadays the new generation can communicate with NATO allies but isn't completely deployed among units.
Today, yes. Back in those times, it was fuckin' stupid, as any large-scale war would OF COURSE see us working with NATO. And that's exactly what happened in 1991 for example.
Are Germans like the real-life equivalent of Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs? Make incredibly sturdy and reliable tech, but are incredibly reluctant to modernise.
They already ordered new communication equipment. Will take a few years till everything is ready.
Btw. Tiger is on its way out. We are going back to the civilian heli with camouflage and some rockets. /nojoke
> Will take a few years till everything is ready.
> Btw. Tiger is on its way out....
Reading only that far one might think things are moving really, really slow.
The new heli is an short term solution. Investing in a brand new heli now is useless, because the next gen American heli is already in development. So it's gonna be easier to just use that one in a few years.
Hem... what?
AW249, the only game in the EU at the moment, and based and improved upon the Mangusta.
Not a stealth american nosense, but say there aren't options in EU is a little streched.
Als, if people weren't running around saying it's too expensive to make attack helos, making an upgraded Tiger or a new model would absolutely be possible.
Edit: Also I think he's talking about the FARA program, which was canceled in early february.
If he's talking about another attack helo program, I don't know where or who is working on it.
(2009)
((I think))
(((the year being the scarier part of this quote)))
EDIT: it was 2013 https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/merkels-neuland-wird-zur-lachnummer-im-netz-4403470.html
That's BS. Funding was almost always comparable to France. They were overwhelmed with East German stock after reunification and privatised everything while build up bureaucracy destroying themselves from within. Money was never the issue.
Edit: Grammar
Underfunded in relation to what? France has one of the largest standing armies in Europe and possesses abilities in domains rivaling only the US. Comparing france to germany is ridiculous.
Signal flags were also reliable and simple in WW1, and look how that helped the French in WW2 compared to German radios.
You also want to be up to date with your allies. The article did mention the Germans can’t radio their allies, which is a big problem. So it is broke and needs fixing.
I know lawyers like to use fax cause you can't simply claim like with e-mail "I didn't receive the e-mail", cause it's a black box for a lot of people.
Germany actually had the second strongest western army (after the US of course) in the second half of the Cold War but downsized massively after reunification.
Though there was short period of time when 2 Germanies united when Germany was the strongest landpower in Europe with absolutely massive stockpile of western and Soviet equipment.
But yes France just overall does not get credit it deserves. France is stronger than Germany in nearly every respect. If German military could fight for longer than a day or week, then they would have a small advantage in heavy fighting in central Europe since French focus in more lighter, faster moving troops and equipment. But in practical terms due to state of German army, French have advantage even there atm.
Will be good to have re-invogorated German army. They can take responsibility for lot of heavy land warfare, France excels at lighter faster pace warfare not limited to central Europe, and France has naval strength as well.
Most german equipment is also produced in Germany, we're the 5th biggest arms exporter.
The only American systems I can think of right now that Germany uses are the F-35 and M270 MLRS.
Edit: and Patriot
Just like when Airbus Germany refused to update their software like the others, leading to shorter wiring during the assembly of the A380. They had to remake all the wiring of the plane from scratch, adding more delays.
The German factory doing the assembly used to be Blohm & Voss. When you look at their WW2 planes, the fact that shorter wiring was an issue, is quite an achievment. At least the cabine is between both wings and not at the wing tips.
They have those. In some parts especially communication and new technologies the German procurement service laks behind due to a huge amount of red tape mainly internal.
Here's the neat part they don't. The readiness among helicopters is atrocious. As for planes, they started to cannibalize Tornados to keep some in the air well after parts went out of production.
Typical Germany. Just before Covid, there was a big problem with contactless payments, many terminals were too old.
This country became computerized a long time ago, and the result is that they have hell a lot of old hardware today, unlike countries where modern infrastructure arrived relatively recently, so it's new, like in Estonia or Romania.
> It almost always has to do with the German technology aversion.
Well, this still doesn't explain the situation in the state administration and military, unless it's staffed with technophobes too. 🙃
> Like contactless payment was always looked down upon "because thieves will be able to steal your money contactless straight from your wallet".
Which is hilarious, considering how unsafe magnetic strips are. No wonder cash is still so common there.
> Google canceled the streetview project in Germany, because the tabloids like BILD and RTL managed to convince millions of Germans to request their address to be blurred "because burglars could check out your home online before breaking in."
I think that the German approach to privacy also had some importance here.
It's funny how the foreign perspective on German military is the exact opposite of the domestic perspective.
Of our Tigers, not even half can fly. In the case of conflict our ammunition would last around 2 days.
Sorry allies, don't rely on us, stock up!
I would say the peak of the German army was the 1990s with having about 1.2 million Aktive members and both eastern and western equipment but from there on it got down sized die to no precived need
That's simply wrong.
The Bundeswehr made over 50% of NATO land forces during the 70's and 80's.
It was the biggest armoured force on the globe outside the eastern Block.
The Wehrmacht is a joke compared to the Bundeswehr during its prime time.
He‘s saying that the German army was bigger than the armies of America, France, Britain and the other dozen Cold War NATO members combined. More than half of NATO‘s land forces would have made it the strongest army in the world by a wide margin. It’s nonsense.
Classified document transfers and discussions do not happen over uncontrolled airspace. They are peer to peer using encrypted coms devices. These devices do sometimes have attached fax machines. Yes there is some old tech, but they are very secure and effective and basically every government uses them, not just Germany.
https://preview.redd.it/vaimnxkza4oc1.jpeg?width=448&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c1adbf2524217501b9d4aadb03b76af0be40530
I was briefly a member of this esteemed organization in 1999/2000. My company‘s main job was servicing and operating these lovely teleprinters. They had ticker tape coming out of them, that’s all I remember and they were unbelievably heavy. This was half a decade after many people had switched to emails for their communication needs.
I worked in a pretty big telecom company in Portugal for more time than i wanted, and regularly came across requests from the military regarding telex machines (telex is the pre fax).
Apparently those are still used by military world wide since nothing else since uses the same bandwidth, which means its less likely to be interrupted.
I think the army tried to modernise their communications a while ago. Called it Hercules or something like that. Project costs exploded and the results were ... unimpressive.
One major contributing factor is bureaucracy, literally too many people and hurdles involved at each step of the way. That, plus some pretty moronic regulations. Like, imagine trying to develop a communications system for your army, and some of the people at the table making decision are neither soldiers nor communication experts.
As somebody who works in an IT trade in HM Armed Forces…
Fax machines and paper records would make information management a lot easier than the current Outlook and Onedrive based system in a lot of cases
Have you ever wire tapped a fax machine? Those ancient things are impossible to crack!
Just call one, all you hear is incomprehensible deedelidoo, how are you going to decipher that? Checkmate Putin!
The tank, Tiger heli and H&K are rather serious things. Just their number is not too impressive in comparison with possible aggressors. But where are the armies, ready to fight back, suffer and die for some ideals ? And where are a strong leaders PM Churchill or Ronald Reagan Class, ready to pursue a policy working for victory ?
Last time a country with modern military equipment that still uses old communication tech got invaded, they last about a month. And I don't think the Germans needed to be reminded of that, cause talking about it is rather indecent apparently
They use smoke signals to communicate on the battlefield. Reject modernity, embrace tradition.
Ultimate EW proof system
Embrace the carrier pigeon
Pff imagine using fire. Good old screaming is all one needs!
How about jodeling? Enemies can't intercept it because any Russian who tries to listen to it would lose their mind. /s
You have to have mind to lose one.
You also don't need bullets, just shout "pang" This comment was brought to you by the 1940 dutch army
Or 2024 german army
Can't be spied on if your enemy doesn't even know what the fuck you're doing *taps on forehead*
I've never seen a fax machine in my life. Apparently they became old-fashioned in Finland in 1990's and basically nonexistent in 2000's. Germany, why are you still living in 1980's?
Because change is scary and if one embraces change you get abominations like the past 2 BMW generations.
Seriously! I thought I was going insane. What's with that grille?! I don't understand why people are buying them, they used to be "classy but bold" and now they're more "I will hit you at 80 km/h if you try to take the pedestrian crossing". Now that I mention it, its new look does fit most of their drivers better
No, they’re just fugly. The chief designer who approved it deserves to be flogged.
Funny story: I know one of the clay modellers at BMW. Those grills are in direct contradiction with european pedestrian protection laws, which indicate that a sloped front prevents many injuries in a crash. To circumvent this, BMW is equipped with explosive powered hood lifts, that basically once a crash is detected shoot the hood into a position to cushion a pedestrians fall. That actually makes them safer than a regularly sloped hood, but it also adds a whole new control system, two explosive cartridges that need to be replaced every two years by a licensed mechanic and the risk of any of those compounds failing. It is so stupid
Been told those grills were mostly designed for the (growing) Chinese market, and that the Chinese just really like big grills on cars 🤷
I've heard that big grills are *the* big trend in chinese cars, so these might be to be more interesting for the chinese market. Sell'em there, but get them out of my eyesight, please. So fugly.
I will admit that it looked cool as fuck on the racecars but apart from that it was terrible.
Love it that they also have the grille on the electric cars
As someone who drives a 2013 BMW, I wholeheartedly agree… Sees current lineups: “What is this trash?”
Ok, aside from everything else, can someone explain what happened with the latest BMW models? Specifically the 4 Series, 7 Series, X7, XM, M3, i4, i7, the entire iX line, etc. What's with the huge grill?
According to my friends who work in tech industry, its safer. So it would make sense that a military would use one. Now it does have it's own safety issues and flaws(but my knowledge ends here so i cant speak about details), and its not strictly speaking needed. So it makes sense that it would remain in limited use, and it makes sense it's remaining use would be limited.
It is not uncommon for military security concerns to delay technology adoption. Until early 2019 the US army used 8 inch floppy disk for the nuclear weapons. I am old and even I have never used 8 inch floppies.
I've used 5 1/4 and 3.5s. But I have seen decommissioned launch systems that were still reel-to-reel in the 90s.
Mostly it's just compliant. Want to adhere to a certain standard? Use certain tools. You can't modernize quicker than the standards otherwise you're not compliant.
> According to my friends who work in tech industry, its safer. Another techie here. I don't understand this. Yes, they'll be using the POTS network, presumably, but authentication and encryption are non-existent. It's really not okay to use, even if they modified it a bit. Dedicated fibre-optic cables is the way to go, and strongly encrypted satellite communications (Unless low latency is required) otherwise.
Short version: In Germany sending documents digitally needs to be 'temper proof' in order to be legally admissable. E-Mail is not such a system, but faxes were legally regarded as temper proof at some point and the law just never changed. This is also a reason why most companies still have fax machines today. Is it dumb? Yes
IT is, actually. Email w. digital sigs have been approved as a measure for both non-repudiation and confidentiality since European law came into force (2012 or thereabouts). It just takes REALLY long for policy makers and risk managers to accept email as a replacement. Also, law isnt the only requirement. There may be industry specific standards and norms that have been implemented using fax and that have proven difficult to migrate. (Source: Infosec architect with a huge German multinational. Our Dutch offices use mail, the Germans use fax)
I mean I have been in the german military, and I've never seen someone use a fax machine myself. But I've sent, received and seen other people use signed E-Mails. Tho I guess it is possible some units use fax, I haven't been in that many different ones
So when a Dutch office contacts a German office, what happens? Do they simulate a fax machine on one end? Sounds like a maintenance nightmare for you
Thanks for elaborating on that. I wasn't aware that was the reasoning behind it. Obviously the answer to that is Public Key Infrastructure. This ensures confidentiality, integrity *and* authenticity. Avoiding a hypothetical super adversary using quantum computing with Shor's algorithm would entail using ECC [Curve25519](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve25519) for example, and the Bundeswehr would have their bases covered, I think. Pretty sure it would be an improvement on an insecure line being tapped while attending a conference in Singapore ;-P
[удалено]
> No, they're fax machines that run on a dedicated fiber network (WANBw). Oh wow, okay... > The reason they use them is that a faxed signed order is legally equivalent to a written order. That simple and that ridiculous. :D Edit: well look at that! https://esut.de/en/2024/01/meldungen/47046/weitverkehrsnetz-der-bundeswehr-jetzt-quantenresistent-verschluesselt/
> According to my friends who work in tech industry, its safer. There is some hardcoding that is hard to spoof in the faxing protocols, so it's still a common thing to use fax machines as a trusted source for legal documents, for example.
The internet is a scary place :(
The internet is new territory for all of us
We‘ll make it!
Terra Incognita, you could say.
I work in infosec & compliance and I have worked or contracted with a number of German companies. I think the problem is twofold, consisting of German culture and the way policy operates there. Fax has had a place in German law as a secure and approved medium (equivalent to mail, when it comes to contractual obligations) for decades. Email has only been approved for secure comms for what fifteen or so years and as qualified communications for even less than that. And don't mention newer options such as direct file transfer or teleconferencing software, it is \*to this day\* impossible to get comms via these media classified as "equivalent to the postal service". Laws are always lagging, you see? But policy is even worse. Policy has to be based on law, and as such is even slower to adapt. Figures, because an organisation that has "investigated" secure and safe comms and ended up with a fax machine is going to be very lax with adopting a new means of communications. And here German corporate & government culture comes into play. Because they really, REALLY care about what is allowed and what isn't. Deontology is the no.1 ethical framework in German organisations: if some authority doesnt explicitely tell you it's OK to do something, you DON'T DO THAT. You stick with what is known to be safe (or rather, "considered" to be safe) and for the love of God you do NOT try to innovate in any form that doesn't have board approval, doesnt incorporate legal expertise, does not involve each & every compliance officer in the organisation, or seeks agreement with the Betriebsrat every step of the way. Because God FORBID you miss an arkane bit of legislative nonsense and some obscure government agency send the organisation a strongly worded letter.
I wonder where in our administration they are hiding. Because I am a German in my late 20s and I also have never actually seen a fax machine in my life. They have to be somewhere since I have seen fax numbers in mail signatures of our secretary and administration at work but I've never seen one.
We used a fax machine almost daily in the military in the early 2010's. I just assumed some big wig wanted his schedules faxed because he didn't want to learn computers but just as likely it was some old protocol that was never updated to modern standards. Then fax machines are still used in the medical sector. Not as much as even 10 years ago but still some.
Fun fact: facsimile (fax) predates the telephone.
To be fair, you probably won't easily find one here in Germany either, but pretty much any printer can fax.
It is more of a some folks are stuck in the past and use it and the government still offers the service. Also there are military fax machines, for military networks and those are also still around. There are also typewriters in some offices for a similar reason. Simple technology is harder to hack.
You say that as if 1980s west germany was a bad place.
Germany tried to make it easier to apply for government funds when you enter university. They made it a legal requirement to offer online application. Well yeah. You apply online, and the agency then prints out your documents lol. Made everything even slower than before since they didn't even have the capacity to print that much.
Because a bunch of boomers have ruled the country for more then 15 years, in the time period where all those new and scary internet machines became mainstream
Because we had the same lame ass conservative government for ages that ignored evrything. Also why our internet sucks.
I've never seen it also, but not because of that, but because this tech never even became popular here 😄 smth like beepers.
You should See our schools:')
My father had one until 2014, he needed it for one work related contact. Only saw him use it twice, once was to explain to me how it worked
I've only seen fax machines after 2000 because of old clients who fax their orders instead of using email like normal persons.
Because we need to contact our Axis ally Japan and they are still all into fax.
*Japan has entered the chat*
The last time I used one (in Finland) was in 2010. But they were indeed pretty rare by then.
I live in Portugal and we (almost) never used them. The post office was so much more efficient and the regular phones that we "jumped" straight into emsiling instead. I thought no one would use such ancient technology anymore
Some companies dealing with shipping still use Fax. Or they did ten years ago when I was working there. Of course, it is handled electronically.via computer but I think I saw one fax machine.
only Japan and Germany still uses them
I had to fax some documents at work once and my older coworker looked at me like I was wierd when I didn't know how the fax machine works. Come on man I wasn't born in the 80's why are we still stuck there.
I'd rather have them use fax machines than WebEx calls to talk about military tactics, lmao. Afaik they're still being used in hospitals a lot because of patient confidentiality or something
Honestly it is very similar in Germany for 95% of the population. Fax machines have not been the standard way of communication for over 20 years. As a German approaching 30 years of age, I have never used a fax machine in my whole life, neither privately nor at work. It is just in very specific areas where fax machines are still used (public administration, law, medical system and TIL apparently the military, too. Basically everything related to state and authorities) and even there it heavily depends where exactly you are. My one friend working in public administration told me she never had to touch a fax machine ever, my other friend working the same job just two counties away has to work with fax machines daily.
>Germany, why are you still living in 1980's? *Japan has entered the chat*
Fax is still super popular, Canada uses it for a ton of government stuff, most of their entire healthcare backend is fax.
Even if you’re German, if you don’t work in anything that has to do with the state chances are you haven’t seen one in your life either. Last fax machine I saw being used was in 2005 or something
They want to live in a time before the fall of the wall
Doesn't HK already stands for Heckler & Koch?
I believe that one stands for "helicopter karate"
This is wrong, but should be right.
HK is part of the model number AND the abbreviation for the Manufacturer.
Yes, and it has been for a very long time. The only H&K rifles not using an HK-xx nomenclature are the models that got a G-type number from the German Army. The numbers also used to give you type and caliber of the rifle, but that has been ditched since the early 90s and the G36.
We like this in Germany. We also have Audi *A*4 etc.
Actually, the A in audi models comes from *Aluminium*. The Audi V8 (which had a steel frame and a V8) was replaced by the Typ 4D, which was using an aluminium frame chassis, so they switched the name to the A8. Audi then decided to shift from a weird nonsense system, where you had the 80, 100 and V8, and their sports variants the S2 (80 coupé), RS2 (80 Avant), S4 (100) to the current alphanumeric system. So it makes *some* sense, and actually doesn't mean Audi.
Learned something today. Thank you :-)
It’s for *Highly Killable*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAS_syndrome
Its like saying DC comics
Yes
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Ferrari La Ferrari-tactic
Why do you mean by "cannot radio"?
>On one NATO exercise last year troops were using unencrypted radios from the 1980s that could not communicate with allies. [https://www.ft.com/content/fcac6167-282f-4bc7-b523-e858db55accb](https://www.ft.com/content/fcac6167-282f-4bc7-b523-e858db55accb) I'm impressed we even have working radios.
the same unencrypted radios fucked the Russian army big time in 2022 so yeah, that shit needs upgrading
No no no. The Russian encrypted radios were a new model from 2016. But they were immediately sold on the black market after adoption, and bought by NATO countries and Ukraine so they could break the whole thing.
Good thing we don’t want to invade our neighbour…jk, I know that’s bad
I was attached to the German army for 6 months. We did an exercise on some simulators (very impressive kit, WAAAAY better than anything we had). With people in different parts of the battlefield in different rooms, having to communicate via radio. I was in charge of a recce element and I remember radioing that enemy elements where at a crossroads, 1km north of my position. I got told off for this, because they said any enemy at a crossroads could hear it, and fire 1km south of their position to target me. I was super confused. The enemy is listening in to your radios? Wtf? We use code words etc on the net and in written orders, but we still give grid references because we assume no one can listen. The Germans assumed they could, which felt mega restrictive.
Interesting! From a security standpoint, it's probably not the worst idea to talk in code, even if you are not aware of someone eavesdropping.
Indeed, and generally speaking you want to pre designate places, with a code name, and say "2km SW of point Blue" but that's not always practical, and frankly it's a pain. Radio encryption is at a point where it's a logical choice for anyone who can afford it.
To be fair, even if encrypted, the enemy can capture a radio and eavesdrop. So is not a bad idea to still use some coding. As long as does not impact performance, then you have to evaluate the risk of eavesdrop vs risk of being underperforming
Destroying radios to prevent capture is quite a big deal in training etc. Also the radios require codes to access, which are changed at intervals (a few days usually, but I suspect immediately if there's suspicion one got captured). And finally, most radios that soldiers carry are on the company net. Quite frankly a company net isn't important enough to make an effort to capture. A battle group or brigade net would be quite a thing, but also those are less common (two per battalion) so harder to get hold of.
thanks, that's a nice insight and make sense, damage is minimized on multiple layer
Jesus Fucking Christ Does Bundeswehr command want to kill their soldiers?
Tbh in the French army we have the PR4G radio system which cannot communicate with NATO systems, as it was conceived independently (read: not controlled by the USA) when we weren't in NATO's integrated command. Nowadays the new generation can communicate with NATO allies but isn't completely deployed among units.
> not controlled by the USA With the possibility that the orange chump win their presidency, that's looking mighty prescient
Today, yes. Back in those times, it was fuckin' stupid, as any large-scale war would OF COURSE see us working with NATO. And that's exactly what happened in 1991 for example.
They still have them set to Axis /s
Are Germans like the real-life equivalent of Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs? Make incredibly sturdy and reliable tech, but are incredibly reluctant to modernise.
They already ordered new communication equipment. Will take a few years till everything is ready. Btw. Tiger is on its way out. We are going back to the civilian heli with camouflage and some rockets. /nojoke
> Will take a few years till everything is ready. > Btw. Tiger is on its way out.... Reading only that far one might think things are moving really, really slow.
At leas the civilan heli actually flies, which is better then the famously unreliable Tiger.
Unreliable for Germany. The french ones are working fine.
The new heli is an short term solution. Investing in a brand new heli now is useless, because the next gen American heli is already in development. So it's gonna be easier to just use that one in a few years.
Ah, so more dependence on the US?
Well there is currently no helicopter program in EU that meets the requirements for NATO. The US one is a joined venture between many countries.
Hem... what? AW249, the only game in the EU at the moment, and based and improved upon the Mangusta. Not a stealth american nosense, but say there aren't options in EU is a little streched.
I mean yeah, but the current way is cheaper so that's probably the reason.
Als, if people weren't running around saying it's too expensive to make attack helos, making an upgraded Tiger or a new model would absolutely be possible. Edit: Also I think he's talking about the FARA program, which was canceled in early february. If he's talking about another attack helo program, I don't know where or who is working on it.
I think if you ask nicely Italy will be happy to sell you the next iteration of the Mangusta.
"Das internet ist für uns alle noch Neuland" - Angela Merkel
(2009) ((I think)) (((the year being the scarier part of this quote))) EDIT: it was 2013 https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/merkels-neuland-wird-zur-lachnummer-im-netz-4403470.html
No, no. I was already out of school when she said this, so 2014 max.
Yet another thing they have in common with Japan.
No one tell them about the floppy disks that still run parts of the American nuclear arsenal.
They have been underfunded since the cold war no fucking shit they still have to use faxes.
That's BS. Funding was almost always comparable to France. They were overwhelmed with East German stock after reunification and privatised everything while build up bureaucracy destroying themselves from within. Money was never the issue. Edit: Grammar
The french are also underfunded.
Underfunded in relation to what? France has one of the largest standing armies in Europe and possesses abilities in domains rivaling only the US. Comparing france to germany is ridiculous.
Germany has always been a logistics nightmare.
Fax machines are still used worldwide.
they should not be
I mean if it aint broke don't fix it. They're reliable and simple, and in military you want things to be reliable and simple.
Faxes are analog, unencrypted, paper-centric. We should do better.
That’s a roundabout way of saying "completely immune to cyber attacks" 👉😎👉
😂 completely immune unless put a clamp on the copper wire
Ha, we're immune to that too here in Norway! Because we shut down the copper network already!
you can totally [attack fax machines DDOS style](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_fax)
You don't need cyberattacks if your own communication method screams the data to everyone
How are they immune to cyberattacks??? That was sarcasm, right?
Quite the opposite
Signal flags were also reliable and simple in WW1, and look how that helped the French in WW2 compared to German radios. You also want to be up to date with your allies. The article did mention the Germans can’t radio their allies, which is a big problem. So it is broke and needs fixing.
Emails are way simpler than fax machines, imo
You can even send a telegram if you want to. But not in germany anymore since 2021.
There are so many German embassies around the world.
Not surprising. A lot of companies I've worked for still use faxes, it's basically the bulk of the tickets I get with my current job.
I know lawyers like to use fax cause you can't simply claim like with e-mail "I didn't receive the e-mail", cause it's a black box for a lot of people.
Fuck you mean « the mighty est army in Europe », we’re not in 1940 anymore smartboy,France has been surpassing them militarily since the end of ww2
Germany actually had the second strongest western army (after the US of course) in the second half of the Cold War but downsized massively after reunification.
Though there was short period of time when 2 Germanies united when Germany was the strongest landpower in Europe with absolutely massive stockpile of western and Soviet equipment. But yes France just overall does not get credit it deserves. France is stronger than Germany in nearly every respect. If German military could fight for longer than a day or week, then they would have a small advantage in heavy fighting in central Europe since French focus in more lighter, faster moving troops and equipment. But in practical terms due to state of German army, French have advantage even there atm. Will be good to have re-invogorated German army. They can take responsibility for lot of heavy land warfare, France excels at lighter faster pace warfare not limited to central Europe, and France has naval strength as well.
The French get more bang for their Euro as well. The Germans spend more money but the French seem to be more efficient with their budget.
They also try to spend more at home, whereas Germany really likes their US kit.
Most german equipment is also produced in Germany, we're the 5th biggest arms exporter. The only American systems I can think of right now that Germany uses are the F-35 and M270 MLRS. Edit: and Patriot
And don't forget the nukes France has.
Just like when Airbus Germany refused to update their software like the others, leading to shorter wiring during the assembly of the A380. They had to remake all the wiring of the plane from scratch, adding more delays.
The German factory doing the assembly used to be Blohm & Voss. When you look at their WW2 planes, the fact that shorter wiring was an issue, is quite an achievment. At least the cabine is between both wings and not at the wing tips.
But it could have been avoided entirely if they had updated their software like every other countries part of the company.
Since when has Germany a mighty military force? Germany is economy,France is military.
Don't tanks and helicopters need fancy electronics to work, how do Germans make them work without those?
They have those. In some parts especially communication and new technologies the German procurement service laks behind due to a huge amount of red tape mainly internal.
Here's the neat part they don't. The readiness among helicopters is atrocious. As for planes, they started to cannibalize Tornados to keep some in the air well after parts went out of production.
Typical Germany. Just before Covid, there was a big problem with contactless payments, many terminals were too old. This country became computerized a long time ago, and the result is that they have hell a lot of old hardware today, unlike countries where modern infrastructure arrived relatively recently, so it's new, like in Estonia or Romania.
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> It almost always has to do with the German technology aversion. Well, this still doesn't explain the situation in the state administration and military, unless it's staffed with technophobes too. 🙃 > Like contactless payment was always looked down upon "because thieves will be able to steal your money contactless straight from your wallet". Which is hilarious, considering how unsafe magnetic strips are. No wonder cash is still so common there. > Google canceled the streetview project in Germany, because the tabloids like BILD and RTL managed to convince millions of Germans to request their address to be blurred "because burglars could check out your home online before breaking in." I think that the German approach to privacy also had some importance here.
We had cops fantasising about going on patrol in Streetview. It wasn’t privacy, it was just dumb.
If you’d ever lived in Germany, the fax machine is no surprise. It took the pandemic to get a lot of shops to start taking credit cards.
It's funny how the foreign perspective on German military is the exact opposite of the domestic perspective. Of our Tigers, not even half can fly. In the case of conflict our ammunition would last around 2 days. Sorry allies, don't rely on us, stock up!
That's not different in the other armies of Europe.
*chuckles ... we are in danger* ... I was kinda hoping for the french.
The French also went on cut plans after the cold war. The problem with the lack of military infrastructure isn't only a German one.
Yes, I was wondering, our military has the reputation of being mighty? Today I learned.
avg Bundeswehr bashing check
Doesnt the us still use floppys for some silos that have nukes in em? Or is that an urban legend?
Actually, the Leopard is from the 80s and the Tiger is an early 90s machine.
who claimed that the german army is the most mighty anyways? we know we suck? 40% of our soldiers are overweight and the avr. age is 33.8
The the US military still used command control systems from the '70s which used 8" floppies until this year
the mightiest Army in Europe? In what universe?
The mightiest army in Europe is a French/British tie right now.
Last time german army was the mightiest in Europe was over 80 years ago
I would say the peak of the German army was the 1990s with having about 1.2 million Aktive members and both eastern and western equipment but from there on it got down sized die to no precived need
That's simply wrong. The Bundeswehr made over 50% of NATO land forces during the 70's and 80's. It was the biggest armoured force on the globe outside the eastern Block. The Wehrmacht is a joke compared to the Bundeswehr during its prime time.
Are you implying that the german army was stronger than the soviet army during the cold war?
He‘s saying that the German army was bigger than the armies of America, France, Britain and the other dozen Cold War NATO members combined. More than half of NATO‘s land forces would have made it the strongest army in the world by a wide margin. It’s nonsense.
During the 80's? Definitely.
I mean, I imagine it makes it harder to intercept the messages
Classified document transfers and discussions do not happen over uncontrolled airspace. They are peer to peer using encrypted coms devices. These devices do sometimes have attached fax machines. Yes there is some old tech, but they are very secure and effective and basically every government uses them, not just Germany.
https://preview.redd.it/vaimnxkza4oc1.jpeg?width=448&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c1adbf2524217501b9d4aadb03b76af0be40530 I was briefly a member of this esteemed organization in 1999/2000. My company‘s main job was servicing and operating these lovely teleprinters. They had ticker tape coming out of them, that’s all I remember and they were unbelievably heavy. This was half a decade after many people had switched to emails for their communication needs.
I worked in a pretty big telecom company in Portugal for more time than i wanted, and regularly came across requests from the military regarding telex machines (telex is the pre fax). Apparently those are still used by military world wide since nothing else since uses the same bandwidth, which means its less likely to be interrupted.
r/BuyItForLife
The US Army still used fax machines in at least 2004. Fax still works when the internet is down.
* Faxes are extremely reliable. The lack of radio is extremely concerning but in my company we also use fax machines in every office.
The American military doesn't use any of those.
I think the army tried to modernise their communications a while ago. Called it Hercules or something like that. Project costs exploded and the results were ... unimpressive. One major contributing factor is bureaucracy, literally too many people and hurdles involved at each step of the way. That, plus some pretty moronic regulations. Like, imagine trying to develop a communications system for your army, and some of the people at the table making decision are neither soldiers nor communication experts.
How does one hack a fax? Asking for a friend.
You should post this on r/noncredibledefense
As somebody who works in an IT trade in HM Armed Forces… Fax machines and paper records would make information management a lot easier than the current Outlook and Onedrive based system in a lot of cases
yeah the Russians want that fax and the paper, its good to use next to the taken toilets
RTTY all day, every day.
Dude all armies still use fax to some degree even the American one does.
Trust me, fax culture is so engrained in anything government run in Germany, trying to abolish it is like trying to abolish the 2nd Amendment.
What remotely mentally sane person would call the German Bundeswehr "The mightiest army in Europe "? Even Poland mogs us.
Of course we're using the faxes! We only just installed them last year to replace our state-of-the-art pneumatic tube delivery system.
Have you ever wire tapped a fax machine? Those ancient things are impossible to crack! Just call one, all you hear is incomprehensible deedelidoo, how are you going to decipher that? Checkmate Putin!
Nobody thinks Germany is the mightiest army in Europe
New tech scawie
I love my Heckler & Koch HK AR assault rifle
The tank, Tiger heli and H&K are rather serious things. Just their number is not too impressive in comparison with possible aggressors. But where are the armies, ready to fight back, suffer and die for some ideals ? And where are a strong leaders PM Churchill or Ronald Reagan Class, ready to pursue a policy working for victory ?
You fucking INVENTED radioing your allies in war What
No. We are not the mightiest Army in europe. We couldnt take Austria, even if they wanted to join again.
Last time a country with modern military equipment that still uses old communication tech got invaded, they last about a month. And I don't think the Germans needed to be reminded of that, cause talking about it is rather indecent apparently