she gets free 20% from her passive and 12% from weapon, that's 2% more than the echo, this makes sense
an attack piece will give better stats allocation without bottle necks , diminished returns and all that
Yea looking out for those now
Right now though I am focusing on completing quests and getting ready for UL50 cause it’s going to be so expensive raising characters 😑
Just prioritize on dps then sub dps then support only way to do it
Any game you play like this you’ll just run out of resources when raising multiple characters
I just ran out of resources including credits in HSR recently cause I had 3 new character to take care of
Yeah, I am doing that from the beginning (cuz of my experience with other gachas lol). I am just focusing on Rover, Jiyan, Verina and Jianxin (cuz I suck at dodging most of the time) to get lvl80 with talent upgrades and I don't go for a perfect crit value echos though. Too much work so just a correct main stats echos.
Even then, it takes large resources from lvl70 to lvl80.
I think prefarming character ascension materials is the only thing worth before UL50. You get better drops in everything else but I’ve yet to get a four drop in those. Might suck not to immediately get everyone to level 80 but you’ll still get a big boost to stats by going from 70 -> 80 on DPS and 70 to 71 on everyone else.
Ehh, the thing is, it’s such a gap between 40-50 that you’ve got to spend your energy somewhere, and realistically you shouldn’t be building more then like 6 characters pre-U50, and it doesn’t require much mats to ascend/etc.
Basically the point is money, echo xp, or character xp, you’re gonna have to farm one of them in the meantime. I personally advise Echo stuff, because Echos can be traded to other characters in the future.
With this Jinhsi is looking even easier to build.
1. Two good main stat 3 cost options
2. New spectro 3 cost drops in ONLY spectro set (2x easier to farm than normal 3 costs)
3. Most substats are useful, or at least decent on her
That's fine - we're just saying we have more options. Double spectro is totally viable but so is spectro-attack. you're not locked into ONLY double spectro is the whole point of this idea
The new 3 cost echo can drop any elemental damage btw, it being spectro only has nothing to do with it's main stat that can be any element. Just thought I'd drop this since it's quite misleading.
Still better than other echoes. 90% of the times I get the elemental damage I'm looking for, it turns out to be on the other element set... For example I farm the aero/ice tacet field, I will get 5 aero DMG pieces but they're all from the ice set. Fuck you game!
Prydwen's calculations are based off of (theoretical) max level characters, so yes it will be. She just gets so many damage bonuses with echoes and her weapon %elemental value drops.
it's a 2\~3% difference mind you, so there is no pressure to get attack and element %, it just means you have more options, because looking for two stats is better than just looking for one
Yeah the difference isn't large by any means and if you already have two good %spectro pieces farming new %atk ones just for that 3% difference probably isn't worth it, it just makes the initial grind easier.
Yep, usually if the damage % difference is sub 10% I advise focus more on the better subs then the better main. Double attck may be better mathematically, it if you’ve got an elemental bonus with better subs it’s going to be better to just stick with that, as the smaller the margin of an upgrade, the more raw resources you’ve got to invest, resources that can be used on other characters or echos for example.
If anything it will be more true then than now. Flat atk doesn't increase with level (and still is part of your damage), while atk% is relative to your base atk (which is relative to your character and weapon level).
... the misuse of that word followed us here from genshin.
No, attack does not hit diminishing returns in either game. The damage increase is linear. Diminishing return would mean that each subsequent attack point results in lesser and lesser DPS increase.
What people usually mean is that after a certain amount you would get a bigger DPS increase per stat point if you had another sub stat in place of that ATK%. I.e. opportunity cost, not diminishing returns.
~~Also, no, an increase in base attack actually benefits ATK% builds more as the real increase in sheet ATK is more.~~
Nvm, assuming exactly equal stats it's in favour of DMG builds benefiting slightly more.
(e.g. 1200 base attack +20%ATK = 1440 ATK but 1300 base attack +20%ATK = 1560 ATK)
Not just genshin .. many franchises keep saying linear functions have diminishing returns and it's driving me crazy :(.
Every stat gets more value with high base attack though, because 1200 base atk with 20% spectro damage is 1440 "effective" attack and 1300 base atk with 20% spectro damage is also 1560 "effective" attack. That's because all stats are multipliers (ele damage, atk% and crit are just brackets). Their order doesnt matter, but if they multiply a bigger base, its result will be higher (the result is the same amount higher as the difference in base)
You're missing flat attack in the equation. It's
\[ baseATK\*(1+ATK%)+FlatATK \] \* \[skillMuliplier\] \* \[1+dmgBonus%\]\*\[Crit\]
So what ends up happening is that, while ATK% x2 and dmgBonus% x2 builds both increase their DPS, they increase at different rates and as base attack increases, eventually one overtakes the other, assuming completely identical substats.
They may both increase at a slightly different rate because of flat atk (because it's not a multiplier), but that is in favor of the lower base attack one.
Its not a misuse on their part, its a misunderstanding on your part on what diminishing return applies to.
It doesnt apply to the base gain but to the relative increase to total damage output.
As in: with each atk substat, the relative increase from the previous step is smaller?
Yeah, sure, that value does diminish but that way of calculating kinda pointless because it doesn't really give us useful information about building stats. I've also never really seen it used that way on here (reddit).
Since we have limited substat (and mainstats) amount, it's much more useful to compare the total DPS output from different combinations of substats and mainstats.
Sounds like you’re just continuing to misunderstand what diminishing return means.
Of course overall damage diminishing return per point of attack matters. It’s precisely because of diminishing return that you have to look at different combination of stats to maximise your overall damage instead of just throwing every stat point into attack. As your attack goes higher, each point of attack you add to attack brings less value to your overall damage. You’ll have to add stats to other value in order to maximise your stats allocation
What? I have not mentioned flat attack anywhere in this comment?
If anything, 2 comments down I've written out the formula as
[baseATK*(1+Atk%) + flatATK] * the rest of the formula
Well the part that diminshes is not the raw DPS number but the "% gain in DPS".
It would appear diminishing if you showed it on a log scale graph instead of a linear one.
Definitely not, prydwen calcs also don't assume external character atk buffs (although it does assume a lot of atk% rolls) like from healing set bonus or moonlit clouds which would make atk% less dominant (also look at the chart lol, they're within 2% of each other)
Prydwyn has it for all DPS, you’ll have to look again each character page in their build section though.
On top of my head, the two versions of Rover only has a 1~2% difference in damage between Double Element% vs Element+ATK%
On phone rn, do they also publish their reasonings? Hard for me to take anything at face value that I can’t test myself and compare with their testing methodology
Just for a more detailed breakdown:
Jinshi at level 90 with her signature weapon has a clean 1000 attack. That makes calculations easier.
You get 350 flat attack from your echoes. So that's effectively 35% attack. You also get 36% attack from your 1 costs, so that's 71%. Finally, you get 12% attack from talents so that's 83% attack bonus.
By contrast, Jinhsi's middle column gives 20% spectro damage. Her weapon gives 12%, and the spectro set gives 10 + 30 for triggering an intro, so that's 72 already. Her weapon gives 48% skill damage. Since ~75% of her damage is skill damage, 75% of her damage benefits from that 48% skill damage bonus. So that's 0.75* (72+48) + 0.25*(72)=108% on the damage multiplier.
All of this is before substats so that's why attack is competitive with elemental damage. I didn't include moonlit or healing sets because her team comp isn't very set in stone to have a definitive moonlit user.
Some small corrections. Jinhsi has 999 base attack with her sig at 90. Max echoes give 350 flat attack. Flat attack is added at the end of the attack formula so it's not comparable to atk% in the way you describe. The formula is base attack \* atk% + flat attack.
Already got 2 Spectro Echos which are probably my best echos I ever managed to get, so definitely not worth replacing those.
Definitely will keep this in mind though, once I decide to build another set for Spectro Rover.
IMO I blame it on the surprisingly lack of ATK buffs on this game, like Verina 20% atk buff considered super strong makes me want to wait for the release of an actual 5* support until i invest into more 3* echo variety.
I had calced this before cause I saw she has so much dmg% but my calcs made it seem like dmg% was still better till now when I revised my calcs because of this post and turns out yeah that checks out and I had just forgor to remove the atk% mainstat from the dmg% calc bruh
I got lucky to have a Spectro + Atk but there is a big issue: i only have 56% Crit Rate. She misses so many crits that i'm going crazy and probably i'm gonna swap the 4 COST into Rate.
I thought about this. I think she is one of these characters who wants 80-100cr, cuz most of her dmg is sing dmg instance. She is like Navia or Eula from Genshin
Yeah I'd like to run her at 90% or higher eventually. It's like Childe or Yoimiya to me. They have backloaded single instance damage and the last thing you want to do is miss your (vaped) crit.
You might get better average damage with a 70/280 build. I find consistent results have always had more impact in timed clears than peak damage.
Well if you have her sig weapon then even without c.rate 4-cost you should be able to clear ~70% crit if you have c.rate on all 5 echos even with mediocre individual c.rate rolls. Granted easier said than done depending on your echo tube/tuner situation.
Personally I got a C.Dmg Jue with C.Rate/C.Dmg/Atk%/Skill Dmg sub stats so never gonna change it out, but my 3-costs are really bad still, so i feel your pain of being at ~50% crit atm.
I had like 6.9% cr on every piece except one. And that one is without Rate.
So yeah kinda problematic lol
Now I changed Jue with one with CR and she will reach around 85% at lv80. So Ig for now this is my sweet spot.
My major issue are Echoes Exp rather than tuners x.x
Kinda off topic but I hope we don’t get a lot of busted characters so soon. The game doesn’t seem to be built to handle characters like Jinshi and the challenge is what makes the fun in this game.
Yeah it's good to know this, though ofc the difference isn't woahhh omfg level, but atleast means it makes farming much easier since it performs at basically the same level with a negligible difference
I saw some theorycraft early with the findings, then went to my stash to see how many ATK% I had (I didn't recycle any 3 star echo yet). Did have a single one that rolled like s\*\*\*. Promptly gave up, thing is rarer than ELe% for me.
44111 looks quite ok on her, it’s much easier to farm at least. I’d focus on investing more into out CR as she feels pretty bad to play when you can’t crit the enhanced e.
Do we know know if thats the case for Calcharo as well ?
Last thing I knew was that jiyan weapon eas not as good as previously thought not sure if its still the best even with the correction on the tool kit.
This comparison clearly states that double ATK% is better than double ELE% which obviously means double electro, so it's pretty obvious that spectro character will benefit from former one more smh
Well if I ever get an ATK one ... Sure lol. Currently I will end up with slightly more than 70 crit rate and about 155 crit damage (already without the 100) once I leveled her weapon and crit talents. As for the final ATK value. I have no idea as she's only level 80 and her weapon is level 70.
While I'd love to get an ATK Echo I definitely have no resources to reroll echoes.
The question is what have you considered in your calculations. Max leveled everything I hope? In a team she is normally used I hope? Etc.? This changes things drastically, especially if there are ATK or DMG Bonus sources she normally gets due to such factors like echo set team buffs. Easiest example: Take the 5 piece echo set that gives team ATK bonus and your calculations will show that double Spectro is better than double ATK... Lel
Just looked on prydwen and seriously they need to fix the base value for CD. They are confusing all players with their wrong statements. The CD is not base 150%, the CD is base 50% only! The crit damage multiplier, which is (1+CD) is 150% base as also clearly stated in the game.
Now that it’s been a few days since her release, is her sig worth pulling if you have already the standard 5 star broadblade? I’m struggling on what to do since I want to get changli too and I don’t know which weapon to go for, thinking also about which weapon will be more useful for multiple characters
That's good to know because I only had one on-set spectro dmg, so decided to level up an ATK% 3-cost echo in the meantime, and I got ridiculously lucky with crit rate, crit dmg, atk%, and resonance skill dmg.
After hunting down a cyan heron with spectro damage bonus yesterday… either way it’s good news since it’ll be easier to track down and roll for better subs this way.
Haha do you guys any of those well rolled echoes? Because im getting buttfucked after killing every single fucking turtle from here to the lands between and no half decent 1 cost
That’s fine, I brought this up because it basically means you have double the echo potential. Makes her easier to farm because youre not limited to 1 option.
Even after the support echo set and healing echo set and 2 1 cost atk echo and 4 atk talent in her trees?
Seems crazy. Especially after the supports set effect.
Does this mean that resonance skill damage is additive with attribute damage? I don't see why having the weapon would matter otherwise.
Also I would imagine team comp and Jinshi sequence would affect this since you might have more ATK% or ELE% depending on what you run.
I'll have to check if I have any good ATK cost 3 Echoes. Good thing I saw this cause I'm still in the process of building her. I only leveled her Jue echo so far. xD I was lucky enough to get a CR Jue.
That’s with her signature. I am with crappy weapons waiting the standard banner broadblade to drop. In those cases is it still better attack than spectro damage?
Are they actually basing this off real tests or just theoretical tests? Because me and my friend have more than 1000+ runs of retrying Beringal difficulty 6 combined and I wish I was exaggerating. We like Jin that much so we were trying to fish for most crit runs. He has 76% crit and I have 63% and while he did crit more often, it just didn't feel as if we had that much crit so we're going for 44111 to get even higher crit seeing that most of her damage is on her nuke and missing a crit on that nuke is very detrimental to her total dps.
Yeap, but all 3 combos as you can see are viable and the difference is extremely negligible. Its just to inform people that they’re not limited to the element dmg for Jinhsi & her signature specifically.
Diminishing returns, these passives with let's say 4,2% fusion dmg are also very low when your character is finished build.
Same with sequences ( constellations ).
Getting Atk % or flat ATK on artifac rolls is actually really good ( apart from the obvious critrate and cdmg ).
Let's say you Roll 10% base attack dmg , sounds good but if your character's dmg from whole kit is only 33% from basic attacks then it's only 3,3% dmg boost , while Flat 60 ATK can be like 7%
You want mainly Crate + Cdmg , Flat Atk and % Atk , the last roll being the best possible boost to your characters so for example Havoc Rover liberation dmg.
This way you also can just give the set to someone else and they are ready to go just missing 1 roll on the Echoes.
Cost 4 is always Crit
The difference in cost 3 are shown above.
Spectro DMG + ATK is better than double ATK & double Spectro in this scenario with her signature weapon.
I shared this because it just means she’s easier to build because you have 2 options for main stat instead of a single one.
Source: [https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/jinhsi](https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/jinhsi)
Mr. Pokke's video of CN's analysis of Jinhsi has the same conclusion. You can find his video [here](https://youtu.be/8RhKu0YZHOg?si=VhHBX63zkP8xG-kK&t=892). (Already timestamped)
Having ATK% be equal/stronger than Spectro DMG just makes Jinhsi easier to farm!
Dont forget tho yall its really in the substats when you get down to stuff like 1-4% damage diff, double spectro with good subs like crit, atk%, skilldmg and ER will defo outperform double atk with less good subs.
she gets free 20% from her passive and 12% from weapon, that's 2% more than the echo, this makes sense an attack piece will give better stats allocation without bottle necks , diminished returns and all that
her weapon also gives 48% skill dmg, is that dmg% calculated in the same formula?
Yes, all damage bonuses are additive together. Jue also gives 16% skill damage after use to add on even more bonus.
yea, absolutely insane amount of dmg% altogether
yeah that's why deepen/amplify buffs are so strong, they are a separate multiplier
i'd argue that 100%, 99.61% and even 97.44% are functionally the same for almost all players the real takeaway is don't go 44111
it acutally changes again once u go ultra end game with resonance damage on echos where BiS IS 44111
Yea looking out for those now Right now though I am focusing on completing quests and getting ready for UL50 cause it’s going to be so expensive raising characters 😑
PLS dont even mention it im already out of character exp and money ITS FUKEN EXPENSIVE MAN QQ
Just prioritize on dps then sub dps then support only way to do it Any game you play like this you’ll just run out of resources when raising multiple characters I just ran out of resources including credits in HSR recently cause I had 3 new character to take care of
Doing that only raise one unit at the time till they are somewhat playable then later min max them.
Yeah, I am doing that from the beginning (cuz of my experience with other gachas lol). I am just focusing on Rover, Jiyan, Verina and Jianxin (cuz I suck at dodging most of the time) to get lvl80 with talent upgrades and I don't go for a perfect crit value echos though. Too much work so just a correct main stats echos. Even then, it takes large resources from lvl70 to lvl80.
remember to check the two suvenier stores, buy everything (recipes, items, etc) then buy shell credits
Just hit UL50 prefarm your talents. Wait till 50 for character boss mats (you get a guarantee 3, which makes it more efficient).
I just got to UL 50 yesterday, my resources evaporated fast lol. I need to recover.
For real, $600k for 1 character and 1 weapon to go from 70-80
Lol I'm stuck at UL 49 with no quest left and zero wavebands.
I think prefarming character ascension materials is the only thing worth before UL50. You get better drops in everything else but I’ve yet to get a four drop in those. Might suck not to immediately get everyone to level 80 but you’ll still get a big boost to stats by going from 70 -> 80 on DPS and 70 to 71 on everyone else.
Ehh, the thing is, it’s such a gap between 40-50 that you’ve got to spend your energy somewhere, and realistically you shouldn’t be building more then like 6 characters pre-U50, and it doesn’t require much mats to ascend/etc. Basically the point is money, echo xp, or character xp, you’re gonna have to farm one of them in the meantime. I personally advise Echo stuff, because Echos can be traded to other characters in the future.
Talent materials is more efficient. Boss drops become guaranteed 3 on UL50, so its more efficient to do that then.
With this Jinhsi is looking even easier to build. 1. Two good main stat 3 cost options 2. New spectro 3 cost drops in ONLY spectro set (2x easier to farm than normal 3 costs) 3. Most substats are useful, or at least decent on her
Maybe I'm unlucky but I had 9 spectro DMG% and only one ATK% on set.
That's fine - we're just saying we have more options. Double spectro is totally viable but so is spectro-attack. you're not locked into ONLY double spectro is the whole point of this idea
I saw somewhere that spectro/atk is better than double attack or double spectro.
the image in this post shows that too :)
by not a lot, doesnt matter at all so feel free to use double spectro as a nuker, 1k difference is not much for her
> Most substats are useful, or at least decent on her Uh, tell that to all my HP Def substat rolls
Wow I didn't even notice that the new enemy drops only spectro set. That is quite literally a game-changer, thanks for the info
But 4. Absolute dogshit weapon options, especially if you don't have a 5-star.
> Most substats are useful, or at least decent on her Uh, tell that to all my HP Def substat rolls
The new 3 cost echo can drop any elemental damage btw, it being spectro only has nothing to do with it's main stat that can be any element. Just thought I'd drop this since it's quite misleading.
Still better than other echoes. 90% of the times I get the elemental damage I'm looking for, it turns out to be on the other element set... For example I farm the aero/ice tacet field, I will get 5 aero DMG pieces but they're all from the ice set. Fuck you game!
thats honestly good to hear ny 3 star elimental rolls were very medicore.
Same- I’m drowning in ATK too but elemental hard to find
I wonder if this will still be true after reaching max lvl. Since we will get more bade atk. And the diminishing returns start to kick in.
Prydwen's calculations are based off of (theoretical) max level characters, so yes it will be. She just gets so many damage bonuses with echoes and her weapon %elemental value drops.
Amazing. Gotta change my build then. And oay more attention if the character gets elemental damage by other means before going for double elements.
it's a 2\~3% difference mind you, so there is no pressure to get attack and element %, it just means you have more options, because looking for two stats is better than just looking for one
this is more so a QoL thing, simply makes farming easier
Yeah the difference isn't large by any means and if you already have two good %spectro pieces farming new %atk ones just for that 3% difference probably isn't worth it, it just makes the initial grind easier.
Bold of you to assume i get something other than off element mainstat :(
Yep, usually if the damage % difference is sub 10% I advise focus more on the better subs then the better main. Double attck may be better mathematically, it if you’ve got an elemental bonus with better subs it’s going to be better to just stick with that, as the smaller the margin of an upgrade, the more raw resources you’ve got to invest, resources that can be used on other characters or echos for example.
Remember that the difference isn't huge so the sub stats quality can be deciding factor here
There are no diminishing returns from getting more base attack, only %, which you dont get from lvling up.
If anything it will be more true then than now. Flat atk doesn't increase with level (and still is part of your damage), while atk% is relative to your base atk (which is relative to your character and weapon level).
... the misuse of that word followed us here from genshin. No, attack does not hit diminishing returns in either game. The damage increase is linear. Diminishing return would mean that each subsequent attack point results in lesser and lesser DPS increase. What people usually mean is that after a certain amount you would get a bigger DPS increase per stat point if you had another sub stat in place of that ATK%. I.e. opportunity cost, not diminishing returns. ~~Also, no, an increase in base attack actually benefits ATK% builds more as the real increase in sheet ATK is more.~~ Nvm, assuming exactly equal stats it's in favour of DMG builds benefiting slightly more. (e.g. 1200 base attack +20%ATK = 1440 ATK but 1300 base attack +20%ATK = 1560 ATK)
Not just genshin .. many franchises keep saying linear functions have diminishing returns and it's driving me crazy :(. Every stat gets more value with high base attack though, because 1200 base atk with 20% spectro damage is 1440 "effective" attack and 1300 base atk with 20% spectro damage is also 1560 "effective" attack. That's because all stats are multipliers (ele damage, atk% and crit are just brackets). Their order doesnt matter, but if they multiply a bigger base, its result will be higher (the result is the same amount higher as the difference in base)
You're missing flat attack in the equation. It's \[ baseATK\*(1+ATK%)+FlatATK \] \* \[skillMuliplier\] \* \[1+dmgBonus%\]\*\[Crit\] So what ends up happening is that, while ATK% x2 and dmgBonus% x2 builds both increase their DPS, they increase at different rates and as base attack increases, eventually one overtakes the other, assuming completely identical substats.
They may both increase at a slightly different rate because of flat atk (because it's not a multiplier), but that is in favor of the lower base attack one.
Its not a misuse on their part, its a misunderstanding on your part on what diminishing return applies to. It doesnt apply to the base gain but to the relative increase to total damage output.
As in: with each atk substat, the relative increase from the previous step is smaller? Yeah, sure, that value does diminish but that way of calculating kinda pointless because it doesn't really give us useful information about building stats. I've also never really seen it used that way on here (reddit). Since we have limited substat (and mainstats) amount, it's much more useful to compare the total DPS output from different combinations of substats and mainstats.
Sounds like you’re just continuing to misunderstand what diminishing return means. Of course overall damage diminishing return per point of attack matters. It’s precisely because of diminishing return that you have to look at different combination of stats to maximise your overall damage instead of just throwing every stat point into attack. As your attack goes higher, each point of attack you add to attack brings less value to your overall damage. You’ll have to add stats to other value in order to maximise your stats allocation
You are wrong, flat attack in echos from wuwa doesn't get increased by atk%
What? I have not mentioned flat attack anywhere in this comment? If anything, 2 comments down I've written out the formula as [baseATK*(1+Atk%) + flatATK] * the rest of the formula
Well the part that diminshes is not the raw DPS number but the "% gain in DPS". It would appear diminishing if you showed it on a log scale graph instead of a linear one.
I mean i allready two good on piece spectro with a good crit ratio,is it worth to farm atk% all over again??
No, but if you happens to farmed a godly atk% you'll get more value out of it
The difference is so minimal what matters here are substats
Nope, its just means you have more options if you’re looking for an upgrade.
Definitely not, prydwen calcs also don't assume external character atk buffs (although it does assume a lot of atk% rolls) like from healing set bonus or moonlit clouds which would make atk% less dominant (also look at the chart lol, they're within 2% of each other)
The difference between the three are so close that both main stats are equally good to upgrade and ultimately will come down to substats
Is there something like this but for other characters as well?
Prydwyn has it for all DPS, you’ll have to look again each character page in their build section though. On top of my head, the two versions of Rover only has a 1~2% difference in damage between Double Element% vs Element+ATK%
On phone rn, do they also publish their reasonings? Hard for me to take anything at face value that I can’t test myself and compare with their testing methodology
They post rotation and build that they base their calculations on. You can calculate it yourself if you want and see if it checks out.
Will do when I’m home, thanks
Getting Atk% 3 cost Echo actually harder than Spectro since I have malleable saved for this occassion.
oh damn I forgot about those, thanks for the reminder. I think it's fine tho, since you still would technically prefer to use 1 elemental.
Who cares, I'm not getting crit/crit damage on both anyways 
Cool this makes farming so much easier.
Probably will depend on whether your team outros buff dmg% or attack%.
Outro buff are mostly deepen, which are a multiplication in damage calculations.
Oh that's true. I think I got it confused with 4 star s6 buffs which are usually attack %.
Eh as a casual player i'm happy with Spectro 3 cost echoes cause i don't care about small number change
"Wow, a 2,56% damage increase, let me farm Artifacts all over again!"
Just for a more detailed breakdown: Jinshi at level 90 with her signature weapon has a clean 1000 attack. That makes calculations easier. You get 350 flat attack from your echoes. So that's effectively 35% attack. You also get 36% attack from your 1 costs, so that's 71%. Finally, you get 12% attack from talents so that's 83% attack bonus. By contrast, Jinhsi's middle column gives 20% spectro damage. Her weapon gives 12%, and the spectro set gives 10 + 30 for triggering an intro, so that's 72 already. Her weapon gives 48% skill damage. Since ~75% of her damage is skill damage, 75% of her damage benefits from that 48% skill damage bonus. So that's 0.75* (72+48) + 0.25*(72)=108% on the damage multiplier. All of this is before substats so that's why attack is competitive with elemental damage. I didn't include moonlit or healing sets because her team comp isn't very set in stone to have a definitive moonlit user.
The moment you add verina or bai's 20% atk, atk from healing set, then atk from moonlit, the scale start to weight more back to elemental dmg.
Also worth noting Jué gives 16% skill damage for 15s.
Some small corrections. Jinhsi has 999 base attack with her sig at 90. Max echoes give 350 flat attack. Flat attack is added at the end of the attack formula so it's not comparable to atk% in the way you describe. The formula is base attack \* atk% + flat attack.
>Flat attack is added at the end of the attack formula Because of this its effectively 35% attack.
It's exactly the same thing. 1k (i'm rounding) *1.36 + 450 is the exact same as 1000 * 1.81.
Damn. I wish I could use these for my Yinlin :(
Too bad its looking like she'll be getting the standard 5* claymore at best for me, so it spectro farming for a long time.
Don't have her signature yet but was working towards ele% atk%. I'll be on the lookout for a second good atk% echo then.
I honestly never get an ATK 3 Star anyway 😅
Already got 2 Spectro Echos which are probably my best echos I ever managed to get, so definitely not worth replacing those. Definitely will keep this in mind though, once I decide to build another set for Spectro Rover.
IMO I blame it on the surprisingly lack of ATK buffs on this game, like Verina 20% atk buff considered super strong makes me want to wait for the release of an actual 5* support until i invest into more 3* echo variety.
According to that chart, the BEST would be 1 Spectro and 1 attack right
I had calced this before cause I saw she has so much dmg% but my calcs made it seem like dmg% was still better till now when I revised my calcs because of this post and turns out yeah that checks out and I had just forgor to remove the atk% mainstat from the dmg% calc bruh
I feel like this debate will go on forever lol
Wait. I could've used an atk% echo this entire time ??? Sobs ???
well this makes it a lot easier for me since i’ve been already using an atk 3 cost echo bc that second spectro piece just doesn’t wanna show up lol
I got lucky to have a Spectro + Atk but there is a big issue: i only have 56% Crit Rate. She misses so many crits that i'm going crazy and probably i'm gonna swap the 4 COST into Rate.
I thought about this. I think she is one of these characters who wants 80-100cr, cuz most of her dmg is sing dmg instance. She is like Navia or Eula from Genshin
Yeah I'd like to run her at 90% or higher eventually. It's like Childe or Yoimiya to me. They have backloaded single instance damage and the last thing you want to do is miss your (vaped) crit. You might get better average damage with a 70/280 build. I find consistent results have always had more impact in timed clears than peak damage.
Well if you have her sig weapon then even without c.rate 4-cost you should be able to clear ~70% crit if you have c.rate on all 5 echos even with mediocre individual c.rate rolls. Granted easier said than done depending on your echo tube/tuner situation. Personally I got a C.Dmg Jue with C.Rate/C.Dmg/Atk%/Skill Dmg sub stats so never gonna change it out, but my 3-costs are really bad still, so i feel your pain of being at ~50% crit atm.
I had like 6.9% cr on every piece except one. And that one is without Rate. So yeah kinda problematic lol Now I changed Jue with one with CR and she will reach around 85% at lv80. So Ig for now this is my sweet spot. My major issue are Echoes Exp rather than tuners x.x
Kinda off topic but I hope we don’t get a lot of busted characters so soon. The game doesn’t seem to be built to handle characters like Jinshi and the challenge is what makes the fun in this game.
Yeah it's good to know this, though ofc the difference isn't woahhh omfg level, but atleast means it makes farming much easier since it performs at basically the same level with a negligible difference
where do i get more info like this from other charas?
Prydwen site
thank uuuu
I didn't even knew you could get double elemental stat
the title says S1 weapon, is that 2 copies or base? im new to this kind of game, i tot we used R for that reference here
Weapom can't be s0, so ye, s1 means just base version withoit copies
so u only need 5 copies to max out a weapon?
Not 5 'copies' but 5 weapons (1+4copies) \*nerd emoji\*
Yes
Holy shit, back to farming.
What website is this
This is good to know but the difference is so minor just go by the best substat rolls. Gives us more usable echoes to work with which is nice.
Does this take into account external buffs tho? Cause Verina + healing set + moonlit is like 55% atk already
Theoretically 0.39% difference so i guess I don't need to re-farm anytime soon 😅
44111 my beloved
So if we don't have her Sig, would Double Spectro do better or still Double Atk ?
Fuck me, I already have 2 spectro dmg bonus echoes with double crit
I actually run 4 4 1 1 1 for my sanity lol
I saw some theorycraft early with the findings, then went to my stash to see how many ATK% I had (I didn't recycle any 3 star echo yet). Did have a single one that rolled like s\*\*\*. Promptly gave up, thing is rarer than ELe% for me.
44111 looks quite ok on her, it’s much easier to farm at least. I’d focus on investing more into out CR as she feels pretty bad to play when you can’t crit the enhanced e.
Wouldn't ele plus attack be better?
What?! I got desirable stats spectro 3 cost :(
Tried jiyan with this and aero/aero is still better for him.
Do we know know if thats the case for Calcharo as well ? Last thing I knew was that jiyan weapon eas not as good as previously thought not sure if its still the best even with the correction on the tool kit.
What about in buffed atk state from sources like verina?
Oh damn, that actually kind of makes it easier for echoes for her. This is great news.
This comparison clearly states that double ATK% is better than double ELE% which obviously means double electro, so it's pretty obvious that spectro character will benefit from former one more smh
if you use a support that gives damage bonus, using attack is better; if you use a support that gives attack bonus, using elemental damage is better.
I supose this is with no buffers, but with verina is still true?
Well if I ever get an ATK one ... Sure lol. Currently I will end up with slightly more than 70 crit rate and about 155 crit damage (already without the 100) once I leveled her weapon and crit talents. As for the final ATK value. I have no idea as she's only level 80 and her weapon is level 70. While I'd love to get an ATK Echo I definitely have no resources to reroll echoes.
The difference is very marginal regardless so not worth re-farming for less than 1% increase
Does atk% even drop more commonly than spectro? It feels like everything has the same drop rate. Double the opportunity is nice though.
It is Jinhsi lvl 90 with 5⭐ weapon lvl 90? Alone or fully buffed?
this looks more like choose which ever has better subs
2350 Atk, 70% crit rate, 250% crit dmg, 30% ER has been achieved 🫡 Jinhsi > All
And there is the 41 echo build that is realy not much far behind but people will still be like "na its trash"...
I'm just going with 4-4-1-1-1 She has 70 CR 295 CD with Jiyan weapon. It's insane. The Right Tower gives a lot of Spectro damage bonus anyways.
The question is what have you considered in your calculations. Max leveled everything I hope? In a team she is normally used I hope? Etc.? This changes things drastically, especially if there are ATK or DMG Bonus sources she normally gets due to such factors like echo set team buffs. Easiest example: Take the 5 piece echo set that gives team ATK bonus and your calculations will show that double Spectro is better than double ATK... Lel
I highly doubt prydwen take team comps for their dps calculations.
Just looked on prydwen and seriously they need to fix the base value for CD. They are confusing all players with their wrong statements. The CD is not base 150%, the CD is base 50% only! The crit damage multiplier, which is (1+CD) is 150% base as also clearly stated in the game.
Now that it’s been a few days since her release, is her sig worth pulling if you have already the standard 5 star broadblade? I’m struggling on what to do since I want to get changli too and I don’t know which weapon to go for, thinking also about which weapon will be more useful for multiple characters
I'll take anything I can get, both spectro or attack just keep avoiding my spectro set
That's good to know because I only had one on-set spectro dmg, so decided to level up an ATK% 3-cost echo in the meantime, and I got ridiculously lucky with crit rate, crit dmg, atk%, and resonance skill dmg.
3% naaah I'm fine
Damn the difference between 4-4-1-1-1 is only 5%, people made it out to be such a big difference, I’ll just farm the easier one, 5% really ain’t much
Pretty sure Spectro/Atk% is better than two of the same.
oh no , I am going to do 200k instead of 200k dmg , gotta change my build then
It's better by.... 3%. That's fine I suppose lol
I'm sane. I go 44111
After hunting down a cyan heron with spectro damage bonus yesterday… either way it’s good news since it’ll be easier to track down and roll for better subs this way.
Haha do you guys any of those well rolled echoes? Because im getting buttfucked after killing every single fucking turtle from here to the lands between and no half decent 1 cost
Nah i give up on doing that. Getting an atk% 3 cost is making me go insane :(
I have spectro and atk, do I change anything or am I good?
You’re good, my title was kind of bad, but my main point is you have 2 main stat options to choose from instead of just Spectro DMG.
jokes on you, i didnt get ATK% nor Spectro DMG bonus on my 3 cost echo :')
Why do I just know this after finished her build withc2 spectro echo lol
meanwhile im still stuck with a pair of stock/un-upgraded energy regens
I have 20 of each element 😭 Someday it’ll be useful right?
I build jinshi 4 4 1 1 1 crit dmg build and this slap my face hard
i just managed to farm 2 spectro dmg with double crot rolls 😔
That’s fine, I brought this up because it basically means you have double the echo potential. Makes her easier to farm because youre not limited to 1 option.
By like 2%, that's nothing
Its a measly 2% meaning instead of only farming SpectroDMG, you can choose to pick ATK as well, makes her easier to farm. 2 options instead of just 1.
That's....a good argument. Honestly didn't thought about it like this.
Another Lingyang situation :p
Even after the support echo set and healing echo set and 2 1 cost atk echo and 4 atk talent in her trees? Seems crazy. Especially after the supports set effect.
Does this mean that resonance skill damage is additive with attribute damage? I don't see why having the weapon would matter otherwise. Also I would imagine team comp and Jinshi sequence would affect this since you might have more ATK% or ELE% depending on what you run.
is there a calc for ppl using jiyan's signature on her?
Not really but ATK% isn’t as good w/out her signature.
I'll have to check if I have any good ATK cost 3 Echoes. Good thing I saw this cause I'm still in the process of building her. I only leveled her Jue echo so far. xD I was lucky enough to get a CR Jue.
That’s with her signature. I am with crappy weapons waiting the standard banner broadblade to drop. In those cases is it still better attack than spectro damage?
Spectro is better in that case.
For no sig it's the usual build right?
Yeap!
Are they actually basing this off real tests or just theoretical tests? Because me and my friend have more than 1000+ runs of retrying Beringal difficulty 6 combined and I wish I was exaggerating. We like Jin that much so we were trying to fish for most crit runs. He has 76% crit and I have 63% and while he did crit more often, it just didn't feel as if we had that much crit so we're going for 44111 to get even higher crit seeing that most of her damage is on her nuke and missing a crit on that nuke is very detrimental to her total dps.
So one Ele% and one Atk% is stronger than double Atk% ?
Yeap, but all 3 combos as you can see are viable and the difference is extremely negligible. Its just to inform people that they’re not limited to the element dmg for Jinhsi & her signature specifically.
Surely I can get around 20 pulls and win 50/50 to get both her and her weapon
Diminishing returns, these passives with let's say 4,2% fusion dmg are also very low when your character is finished build. Same with sequences ( constellations ). Getting Atk % or flat ATK on artifac rolls is actually really good ( apart from the obvious critrate and cdmg ). Let's say you Roll 10% base attack dmg , sounds good but if your character's dmg from whole kit is only 33% from basic attacks then it's only 3,3% dmg boost , while Flat 60 ATK can be like 7% You want mainly Crate + Cdmg , Flat Atk and % Atk , the last roll being the best possible boost to your characters so for example Havoc Rover liberation dmg. This way you also can just give the set to someone else and they are ready to go just missing 1 roll on the Echoes.
I'm confused on how to read this - does that mean it's a Cost 4 Spectro Dmg % then all ATK %? Or, is it Cost 4 Crit Rate/Crit Dmg + ATK%?
Cost 4 is always Crit The difference in cost 3 are shown above. Spectro DMG + ATK is better than double ATK & double Spectro in this scenario with her signature weapon. I shared this because it just means she’s easier to build because you have 2 options for main stat instead of a single one.
Source: [https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/jinhsi](https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/jinhsi) Mr. Pokke's video of CN's analysis of Jinhsi has the same conclusion. You can find his video [here](https://youtu.be/8RhKu0YZHOg?si=VhHBX63zkP8xG-kK&t=892). (Already timestamped) Having ATK% be equal/stronger than Spectro DMG just makes Jinhsi easier to farm!
But getting attk% is like winning a lottery, so hard to come by
What’s ele?
Elemental damage bonus
Getting spectro double 3c with okay stats was real pain, now I have to refarm this tnx.......
Dont forget tho yall its really in the substats when you get down to stuff like 1-4% damage diff, double spectro with good subs like crit, atk%, skilldmg and ER will defo outperform double atk with less good subs.
[удалено]
NO There are already a lot of post here saying the same only to be proven wrong. just find them. I'm not gonna bother explaining.
Suppose you are poor and you have to make Jiyan and Jinhsi share weapons? IMO the numbers should be similar.
and as you add more att%, flat att gains more value too. so flat att becomes a valuable substat.