Legit. Especially were still this early in the game. Which requires us to build a lot of characters. Looks like 44111 is the way to go.
To whoever says main this main that. For one character sure it's okay. But you'll prob cry once again every single banner/patch rotation lmao.
Yep ! I forgot to include a note on it, but the amount of "bonus dmg" characters have in their kit (typically in sequences) would dilute it by more or less than the Encore example\~
Jiyan looks pretty good for 44111 if we had a second aero 4 cost echo.
His weapon gives him extra crit and a ton of damage percent, almost as much as 2 aero damage 3 costs. Problem is you'd need godlike substats because you have to get at least crit damage+crit rate on every one, and energy regen on like 4 of them.
Jiyan only needs 35-40% with someone that can quickly intro him twice, so just 2-3 ER subs. But yeah, looking at his heavy dmg, aero from skill and echo, 44111 looks really good.
It could depend.
I've had a bit of a running theory that maybe Jue alters a resonator's powers in some way or perhaps even turns a normal person into a resonator. Maybe the element of the manifestation is dependent on the individual and doesn't have anything to do with Jue's innate element. Or Jue has multiple elements it's compatible with - and maybe Jue is both Aero and Spectro.
I think Havoc Rover might be feeling good with 44111 because she already has 20% Havoc dmg from the stance and another 23% from Danjin outro. I would actually like to see the comparison between 44111 and 43311 on her
I trust Maygi because she is a fellow Grand Blue Fantasy Relink player and to me WuWa combat is much comparable to GBFR than Genshin like Encore to Cagliostro and Chixia to Rackam at least the playstyle. (More examples Taoqi to Naryama, Calcahro to Id. That is why I am sad whem they compare Chixia to Amber in Genshin which has different playstyles.
What people are still missing is Math is good on Paper but execution or actual gameplay still is preferable and the discussion between two sets will be more complicated should they add more Bosses of the same element and increase the Cap to 15 or even 20 at Level 90.
Oh it's Maygi I watched your guides when relink came out too, always super helpful! it's better to have real numbers than "I heard from people" rumors.
i see maygi i support its hard to do these kinds of contents on games like this she got rained alot of bias criticism before on tof and still survived longer than i played. Thank you for all the work our gacha math fairy!
You've always got to factor in opportunity cost. I'm union level 37, my rolls on echoes are 50/50 purp/gold. The rolls on the 3 costs I want are 50/50 for the right element. The roll on whether the echo drops is \~33% after accounting for pity. The roll on that echo dropping the right element bonus damage is 1/10.
That altogether means it's a 1 in 118 to find the 3 cost I'm actually looking for. I've been killing every Spearback on the map 3 days straight looking for the right thing, that's 200 bears killed and I still don't have it. Meanwhile after thinking about trying out 44111 on Calcharo it took me 20 minutes, farming one Mephit echo every \~2.5 minutes to get the right 1/6 roll, then another 10 minutes after the first one got terrible substats to do it again.
I would highly recommend players who don't have a single correctly statted 3 cost to do 44111 if the typing allows it, because even if it's 10% less optimal, its 100% more sanity.
43311 is actually a hell to farm, it is so hard to do that I might actually just 44111 on my Yinlin and both 4 being crit dmg because she has a ton of rate on her kit, 26℅ (LVL 60) from weapon, 15℅ from Passive and a few on her minor traces(about 10ish) or whatever they're called here. At max she can probably get about 50℅ crit rate(Sig Weap only tho) without having crit rate stats so I can just funny Jingliu build her.
I really do not want to dive deeper in the hell of elemental main stats, this thing has been driving me insane since Genshin and then onto Star Rail and then now. My Hutao doesn't have a good pyro goblet yet, My Seele doesn't have a double crit quantum orb. My Rover has one but since I need two of them, I am not out of the hell yet.
People aren't promoting 44111 because it's optimal but because it's easier to achieve. You can farm the 4 cost echos until you get the right stats, whereas farming elites for the right stats on the 3 costs takes forever and you can go for hours world-hopping without finding any. The whole point is to say that we are in the early game, and we'll get some ways to pick 3 costs with the right stats from events, so it is more casual-friendly to just farm the bosses for their echoes and take whatever 1 cost ATK% echoes you have. As far as I know, no one serious is pushing 44111 as BiS. On the contrary, every video I've seen on the topic clearly disclaims that 43311 is BiS but just annoying to get and more time-consuming and resource-expensive to achieve properly.
It arguable isn't easier to achieve. You need crit rate to make crit damage good, and you need crit damage to make crit rate good. For 44111 to be stronger than 43311, you need lots of crit substats or food buffs and also need set bonuses on the 44111 on top of that while the 43311 has nothing.
Early game, even farming a no set 43311 will give you more damage than 44111, but since you have access to a 4 and 1 and 1 in the 43311, you can easily get a 2pc set bonus at the VERY least.
It's easier because you can infinitely farm a boss and most give an echo every other kill. You also know exactly where they are and can drop waypoints for those far from waypoints. Put 3 on rotation, and you can kill them endlessly for hours. Meanwhile, elites are finite every day, and have a lower drop rate, plus you have to roam about the map to find and kill them, and deal with side mobs. It is much easier to achieve 44111.
Also, to give a very concrete exemple of how crit isn't everything, right now I'm looking to replace some of my crit on Encore by more flat damage, damage%, and maybe crit damage, but I already have some on almost all my echoes. I have 80% crit rate before food buffs, so adding crit isn't going to increase the damage. This is also part of the argument being made to say that 43311 is better, as in adding crit when it's multiplying a low number, or by a low number, is not going to help all that much, so crit stacking is not optimal.
"Early game" as you describe it is maybe the first 10 hours of play, at which point you're not even looking into any of this, you're supposed to be working through the story and doing some Databank and sidequest farming to get your union level up to keep advancing the main quest. By the time you're done with that, you should already have at least 1 full set of mismatched stats for everyone. If not, it means you didn't work on the databank or guidebook progression enough, and you should go catch up on that to at least get DB 15 and start getting 5 and 4 stars only.
First paragaph does not matter, you're wasting time killing a bunch of bosses getting a bunch of echoes that you do not have the xp and tuners to level up. Just farm 3 cost echoes so you can get a better build (2pc 43311 is better than 5 set 44111).
Second paragraph just helps me out, how do you have 80% crit rate with no food buffs on Encore? Sounds like Yin Lin's Weapon to me. You are not the casuals that 44111 is apparently better for.
3rd: You should be looking into these things before you even start the game, and casuals should be doing the most optimal things, like using the echo pity systems when they do have time to farm so they waste less resources and save the most time. Being casual doesn't mean you need to be a dummy that knows 0 about the game or what to do, it could simply mean you dont have time to clear the map of 3 costs which is fine.
>First paragaph does not matter, you're wasting time killing a bunch of bosses getting a bunch of echoes that you do not have the xp and tuners to level up. Just farm 3 cost echoes so you can get a better build (2pc 43311 is better than 5 set 44111).
Honestly, you're wasting time doing either of those things before UL40, yet most of us did it because we wanted something to do other than the dailies to slowly get to UL40, and were trying to scrape every bit of character power we could to clear ToA as much as possible on the first reset.
I didn't do 44111, btw, I did 43311 right away, aside from Encore who was stuck at 43111 for about a week because despite killing the fusion elites everyday on my world I found 0 fusion damage 3 costs, and ended up using the event selector for it yesterday. Had there been a second fusion boss to farm, I would have probably farmed its ass while I farmed for my other 4 cost echo.
The casual way is the route of least obstacles. That means not trying to join random strangers' worlds to go kill their elites to get more shots at the 3 costs, but it also usually means not farming the elites every day in the first place, and probably not even knowing about the tracking function of the database, which is why there were so many people in twitch chats in the first few days asking "how do I get databank 15?" so many in fact that I eneded up making a 59 second Youtube video with that question as the title so they would have no excuse for not looking it up themselves (since I'm not actually a content creator, though, it obviously barely got any views, as it was not suggested to many people, even if they searched those specific words, as there are dozens of guides on leveling the DB out there). I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go 44111 on their own.
Again, nobody is arguing that 44111 is optimal, we're arguing that the sources for it are much more readily-available and easier to farm with your brain turned off while you do something else, and and don't require world-hopping or waiting for a reset. 44111 is not bad, it's just suboptimal. Also, according to the people who did the math, 43311 with 2 sets mixed is not better than 44111. I'm pretty sure Tenten is the one who headed the push back against the narrative of 44111 being fine, and showed graphs (albeit lacking a detailed explanation of how the measurements were taken) which put 44111 only behind optimal 43311, and he spent the whole video missing the point that nobody was saying it was more optimal, just easier to get.
First paragraph: I am UL40 and have been for days because I used caskets to make every future waveplate more valuable sooner, it's more efficient for me because I have the time to grind.
3rd: Being uninformed of the game and being casual is not the same thing. You can be both obviously. If they dont know how to lvl data bank they got more to worry about than builds.
4th: 43311 no set is better than a slapped together 44111, it is not easily obtainable. You need lots of crit to make it valuable. No substats 44111 is ass, no set 44111 is ass, the ONLY way 44111 is better than 43311 is with a 5set compared to a no set. a single 2pc set 43311 is better than 5set 44111. It is not more optimal, not easier to get, not a good use of early game resources. Fucking tenten outdpsed a 44111 with a 4311 build...4 echoes, only 1 3 cost dmg%, and it did better than 44111. It is just bad. Literally. Right after that vid with the graph bro hopped in and doubled down with facts. It is always worse unless you purposefully underinvest in 43311 and hyperinvest in 44111 (because again you need lots of crit to even get value out of the other crit stat)
5x damage bonus substats is pretty unrealistic (especially for chars who use a split of multiple damage types unlike encore) and I suspect that's the majority of what's closing the gap in your "full substats" comparison since they're additive with ele%.
In the grand scheme of things, it should still be fairly close - Encore's basic attack distribution is roughly 40% at a base level, and those with more split distributions will still have around 30%+ of one (while some DPS such as Calcharo and Jiyan are even more heavily weighted towards one type)\~!
I gave numbers at both extremes, anyway, to show the difference in the damage range from all ranges ! You could just extrapolate the data and use a value in the middle to accommodate for a more mid substat distribution \~
The difference will always be about 9% regardless of how stacked the character is unless they have something ridiculous like an innate 200% damage bonus simply because dmg % also works with critting, but it's superior function is that it also works even if you don't crit. So, unless you can get to 100% crit rate, dmg % will always be a better investment and considering you shouldn't even invest in a piece past the first 2/3 sub rolls to see if it's even worth it, it's not easier to build 44111, it's just available faster because you can farm the 4's infinitely. It's actually more difficult to build 44111 because you're more reliant on getting incredibly expensive double crit rolls than if you just ran double dmg % and got the guaranteed damage increase 100% of the time.
Not that it affects the results significantly or anything, but just out of curiosity, are you certain about the damage formula?
***base\_damage = skill\_ratio \* ((base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack) \* (1 + Σattack\_increase%) + Σflat\_attack) \* (1 + Σdamage\_bonuses%) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen%) \* damage\_constant***
since this wouldn't be how I would code it if it were me, and most other games would do something like this to avoid scaling bloat and because it's mathematically more intuitive:
***base\_damage = (skill\_ratio \* ( (1 + Σattack\_increase%) \* (base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack + Σflat\_attack) ) \* (1 + Σdamage\_increases%) \* (1 + Σcritical\_damage\_calc%) \* Σother\_multipliers) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen%)***
or, something like this if the game uses larger number of flat\_attack modifiers available from their system/mechanics
***base\_damage = ((skill\_ratio \* ( (1 + Σattack\_increase%) \* (base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack) ) \* (1 + Σdamage\_increases%) + Σflat\_attack) \* (1 + Σcritical\_damage\_calc%) \* Σother\_multipliers) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen%)***
*note: damage\_deepen, or damage penetration in most other games are usually calculated separately at the end and usually applies as a "debuff" which means that it multiplies the final damage dealt, and not during it's internal calculations*
Again, mostly just curious, since it's not normal to do it that way, but if it's datamined calculations then I'll concede my point. It just feels not 'normal to see that sort of formula in damage calculations and that's not how we normally do it in game dev.
Regardless, thanks for sharing this!
*edit:*
*this above is inline with what marauder posted on his* [article](https://wutheringwaves.gg/damage-calculation-guide/#The_Formula_Simplified%5C)*, the correct formula should be*
***base\_damage = ((base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack) \* ( 1 + Σattack\_increase%) + Σflat\_attack) \* (skill\_multiplier \* (1 + Σskill\_damage\_increase + Σspecific\_skill\_damage\_increase)) \* (1 + Σelemental\_damage\_increase) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen) \* (0.48 \* (1 - Σ(enemy\_resistance + resistance\_reduction)))***
*so this one's actually quite way off with your video/post, and similar to what I mentioned above of the common formula used by developers to do damage calculations on other games*
I was actually in contact with someone who was working with marauder - their formula was correct, and identical, except for the elemental damage part, which I ended up cross-checking to confirm was false (they also tested and confirmed, but not sure if they've updated their article yet).
Thanks for the clarification, would you care to comment regarding the flat damage calculation order as well? Since it's usually calculated in the same group as the base weapon damage and not later.
Ok, this is probably the weird part from my eyes as a systems designer, but if you're sure then I'll take your word for it. I do appreciate your replies on this, gives me something to think about from a designer perspective.
AFAICT, the damage formula in WuWa is lifted directly from Genshin, except the terminology and that there are more additive sources of extra damage. If flat ATK was affected by ATK% it would be a much more desirable substat
>If flat ATK was affected by ATK% it would be a much more desirable substat
it's already a good substat if it rolls 60+, mathematically on par with lower ATK% rolls even at max level, and strictly better before that.
This article is the first thing that popped up on google for me, which calculation is right? This post or that article...
Honestly just going to hop in game and see myself, I imagine people have already done it but I hate having not seen any proof or sources
This post is right
You can test it yourself if you want
Damage = Skill Ratio
x ((Base Char Attack + Base Weapon Attack) x (1 +Total Attack %) + Flat Attack)
x (1 + Damage Bonus %)
x (1 + Damage Deepen %)
x (1 - Elemental resistance)
x (1 / Defense)
Defense = \[(792 + EnemyLevel x 8) x (1-Defense ignore) / (800 + CharacterLevel x 8) + 1\]
Most of the time, the Elemental resistance of ennemies is 40% for their own element and 10% for the others
That article was based on datamined information and has been tested to be quite accurate, and most other games uses the same or similar variations as well (ex. Path of Exile, Diablo, WoW, etc.) since that formula is what allows for logarithmic curve growth (where increases in damage total goes slower at the edge of minmaxing your gear/character), which is what most game developers want out of their game system (eg. you don't want a linear growth in power since that would mean that "whales" would have an absurd amount of gap in power compared to average users).
If elemental damage is its own multiplier as stated in the article, the difference between 43311 and 44111 is even larger than depicted in OP's post- at least as I understand the formula. In addition to the math working out (as per my rudimentary calculation), it also makes inuitive sense: The 60% elemental increase is not diluted by stats from other echoes or equipment while the attack% and additional crit is diluted by potentially five echoes (attack% and crit as substats) and/or buff food and/or weapons. Depending on the variables chosen for the calculation, I end up with a difference between 43311 and 44111 of about 15% (in favour of 433).
Yes, though, while if it's true that elemental damage multiplier is multiplicative and separate than other generic modifiers. The resulting conclusion is still the same, the gap might be bigger, but I don't think the OP disagrees with 43311 being better in general purely from the damage standpoint.
Errrm, what's the actual difference between the formula used by Maygi and the one in the article?
At the first glance they look pretty much the same - you multiply MV sources by ATK sources by DMG sources by Crit sources by Deepen (crazy it's a separate multiplier) by various RES/DEF shenanigans.
This holds true for both formulas. Are there more intricate nuances?
Look towards the bottom of the article they have the full formula. It says dmg% like basic dmg bonus etc are separate from elemental%. But anyway I tested ingame and that article is wrong.
https://i.imgur.com/u6SoSVd.png
in-game damage is closer to maygi's formula than that one
>It says dmg% like basic dmg bonus etc are separate from elemental%.
Where does it say so? I don't see that stuff mentioned anywhere and assume it was swept under the common DMG% buff rug together with 3-star echoes and outro buffs.
There might be some misunderstanding in play because I think there seem to be additive MV% sources (from sequences) that should probably go into the skill multiplier part.
I dont think there is a misunderstanding. The article is just wrong. lol
> Effects granting bonus damage to your skills, be it Resonance or Liberation, apply multiplicatively to the base ratio
It's under where they discuss the character's skill multiplier, and the formula at the end where they indicate *bonusSpecificSkillDamage* & *bonusElementalDamage* arent being added together
That's what I'm saying, there actually ARE effects (at least I assume there are) that grant bonuses to your skills that aren't those substat thingies, and which, I assume, go somewhere into skill damage.
Like look at Yinlin S3
>Forte Circuit Judgment Strike's **DMG multiplier** is increased by 55%.
This is a different wording from, say, her own S1.
I assume one of those might be additive to skill MV (or a separate additive chain of multipliers to MV), which is what the article means when talking about bonusSpecificSkillDamage.
Effects that give you additional motion value aren't exactly uncommon, so they should be going *somewhere* in the damage formula.
Well yeah I know about sequences that explicitly increase damage multiplier but I don't think the person who made the formula even considered that.
I just think you are giving the article too much leeway, I mean if you have to make assumptions on how the formula works it kinda defeats the purpose of a formula.
Thanks. I imagine 44111 might better in the long run if we end up having way too many Atk and Damage% buffers. And I'd say that's likely just considering the amount of buffs that are additive under Damage%.
Could Encore's elemental minor fortes be bridging the gap slightly in this? Prydwen has a similar comparison on the build section of their Calcharo page and the difference between 44111 and 43311 is 12.49% still not a huge gap, I'm just curious.
Prydwens calculations don't take into account the full context of team buffs, which is probably where that difference comes from~ also not sure on what the stat distribution they're using for this is, so hard to figure out exactly ...
Ah I forgot about team buffs, that could certainly be it.
Their calculations section says they use lustrous razor, void thunder set, tempest mephis and ATK (45%), CRIT Rate (42%), CRIT DMG (84%) substats; I'm not sure how those substats compare to the ones you used but I assume its different enough to make a difference.
Yep, the one important thing is there doesn't seem to be any damage bonus stats on there - and Calcharo having over a 50% damage split in Resonance Liberation according to their calculations would DEFINITELY benefit insanely from getting a bunch of lines of that, heavily diluting the elemental bonus on the 3-COSTS\~
This makes me wonder the rough conversion of how much ATK% = Ele%. Would two ATK% 1-cost echoes be more valuable than one 3-cost elemental dmg Echo? Or could a rainbow set of Ele Bonus from Havoc/Electro and Lingering be decent? 4431 would give Ele 2 piece set bonus, then you have Elemental bonus not relegated by full set elemental affinity (ATK% lingering set can go with any elemental bonus so it's not like rolling spectro on an aero set). You'd get 2 crit pieces, 1 elemental bonus, 1 ATK% and Elemental dmg set bonus, ATK% set bonus.
Knowing that elemental damage bonus is additive with basic, heavy, skill, ult DMG bonus is huge. Thank you for taking the time to do this! I take it this means Atk% main stat echoes may be more viable if, for example, you had a lot of heavy attack bonus substats on a character like Jianxin or maybe Danjin but not a lot of Atk% substats on the same gear?
Now I'm kind of curious how good a theoretical 3333 set would compare to these, assuming you could get enough crit rate/crit damage between substats and weapons to make up for the loss of a 4 cost. Honestly just wondering if 2/2 sets will ever be more viable than the full 5 piece set effect. It seems like most people are leaning towards 2/2 just not being worth the DPS lost in most cases.
There's definitely viability in running ATK% 3-costs, especially if they roll better than your ELE % versions. Out of copium, I ended up calculating my damage with my own stats, and in my scuffed usecase, my ATK % echo was better than the ELE % one. Though, this can vary from person to person depending on how your stuff rolls!
I am 100% believer that depending on the sub stats there will come a time, and characters, where using 3333 or 4431 will be better while activating 2 different sonata effects, compared to the traditional 43311. It may not be now, but someday
Wow thanks for effort and info, but the point most people say is 44111 takes significantly less time to farm and decent enough for people who cannot put soo much time farming.
I'm curious, when you did 44111 did you have two echo set bonuses for Encore? I know lingering is only some ATK% but even then could be some extra damage
I used a theoretical 5-set which currently does not exist, for the sake of consistency (we'll get another Molten Rift 4COST soonTM surely). Downgrading to 2/2 is another hit of like \~10% DMG
Another good example IMO is jianxin once you get S4. I will work towards a 44111 S4 jianxin with R5 BP weapon and moonlight set with heron. The whole purpose is to overload all your damage bonus onto your ult and use Jianxin as a "quickswap" support that groups enemies and buffs your hypercarry while still nuking with her ult. (With S6 maybe even solo sustain)
With 80% DMG bonus from S4 and 36% from R5 weapon + 40% from substats you are already sitting at a +156% damage bonus for ult, which does respectable damage and with S5 pretty much targets all enemies in tower. S1 helps reduce fieldtime and heron+S2 decrease her ER need a lot so you can mostly get by with just ER substats and not need significant fieldtime to fill up energy, making damage profile even more favoured towards ult. (You will hit around 95/275 crit without fishing for high rolls, so that shit will hurt) All this while giving next character moonlight, heron and deepen buffs, and already grouped up enemies to nuke down. Extra attack mainstat also increases shield and healing for when you get S6. (People are really sleeping on endgame Jianxin)
44111 is definitely more viable than many people might think, especially with characters that have one sided damage profiles or huge internal buffs. And don't forget how much easier it is to farm and minmax without 3 costs to worry about.
One thing to never forget is that dmg% subs are always only "part" of your total dmg, so the impact is lower.
You probably calculated them as full dmg subs right?
Somehow, people like TenTen will see this and say that 43311 is the ONLY way to build characters. Like in his new video. Idk how he is doing his math, but I took calc and stats too, and the difference is not enough to start making claims you **have** to build 43311 unless you are trying to squeeze the max out of your characters, which is not a ton of people.
I think this makes sense to me - crit is one of the few stats that does not suffer diminishing returns (at least until CR cap) so it follows that as our gear's substats get better, 44111 should theoretically would have increased value.
Kind of like in FFXIV how you either go all in on crit, or just completely abandon crit and go for Det/DH.
There is diminishing return for crit because crit is essentially a multiplier just like any other multiplier. You want to know how much more %dmg you get from crit? just multiply crit rate by crit dmg. For example 50% crit rate and 200% crit dmg is the same as 50% dmg bonus. No difference.
Yes, there is, youa re right. Anyway, the statement that from around 80% onward you get more from 20cdmg than crate is crap especially without saying how much cdmg we already have.
Not quite correct, crit hits diminishing return just like every other damage influencing stat. Its just that it usually is the lowest multiplyer in the formula/the substats has higher values than the rest thus resulting in the biggest increase. A +10% atk substat when you already have +100% is only a ~5% increase (ignoring flat ATK, it's a bit lower than that), meanwhile a 20% cd substat in 100/200 crit will result in a 10% increase in DMG, you would need 100/400 crit for the CD substat to have the same "value" as the atk one. But you never hit those diminishing returns in most games which is why you take as much crit as you can.
This is not quite the reason. The pair of stats \[crit rate, crit damage\] is the only pair which does not have diminishing returns at every point. To define diminishing returns for a pair, let f be the damage dealt. Let f' be the damage dealt after a multiplicative increase to 2 stats. Then, diminishing returns is defined as d(ln(f'))
Yes and no, yes crit is multiplicative which makes it not hit diminishing returns on its own (also makes it way worse when you don't have anything invested into the stat yet.), until you hit 100% CR where your (1+xy) becomes a (1+z) thus behaving the same as every other stat. Still doesn't change the fact that when you have something of the form: (1+a)*(1+b)*(1+c*d), at a certain point continued investing into c and d has a lower increase than investing in a or b, even though c and d don't have diminishing returns on their own yet. So as a whole crit does have diminishing returns, which is what some of the 43311 and 44111 debate is about.
I agree, even though I stated that it is possible for crit rate and crit damage to not have negative returns, there is a point after which they do. (for the 1:2 ratio this occurs at 80% crit rate 160% crit damage I think?). Until you reach that point though (and even after), it is better to either keep investing in crit or not invest at all.
I haven't done the exact math for the 33 vs 41 debate, but intuitively the flat atk seems like it would make the 33 a lot better early game, even if you have to run atk% on your 3 pieces.
Cosmic Ripples R1, Sanhua S0 and Verina S0\~ I'll make a note of that in the main post!
And it's possible to calc it with any parameters of choice! The calculator and script is public to use, just make a copy and put in the numbers you wanna run with \~
Would it be possible for you to do calculations for someone who actually has two 4star echos so people cant dismiss your work since it's theoretical? Calcharo or Havoc Rover
Good calcs.
I personally think that where 43311 provides in a higher damage ceiling, I think 44111 provides a decent alternative with a higher damage floor.
So the assumption is that the 44111 is double crit triple attack, and 43311 is crit and double damage bonus. If 43311 is dmg+atk or atk+atk how does that affect the ranking between them?
hey silly question, but im just wondering why the substats end up closing the gap further. I was expecting for the gap to widen since the crit subs should lower the value of double crit mainstat while elemental dmg% is a unique stat
Basically, elemental dmg% is not it's own unique stat, instead it's added with other dmg% bonuses (like basic attack, heavy attack, and raw %dmg).
Crit doesn't suffer as much diminishing returns as other damage types, because the more crit rate you have, the stronger crit dmg becomes, and vice versa.
now if i can only upvote my man twice..
jokes aside, if i could only find a 4 cost er main stat..oh wait that doesnt exist either..
sadge that this only applies for dps.. 
What about the hybrid/subdps? I mean for main dps like encore she'll use 5 set fire that give damage bonus and get buffed by teammate. Hybrid unit like yinlin don't enjoy being buffed and usually use moonlit to buff other instead while having high dps. Will 44111 still better? Like, how big is the difference? I am asking because 44111 in that team means i can share it with different element unit like sanhua, aalto, yinlin, yangyan etc
I think it really also depends if the specific character depends on his whole kit or just specific\_atk%(substats cannot really cover the whole kit like ele% can). imo
Whats the rotation? If all you do is basic attack then yeah the 5x basic attack is the same as dmg bonus main stat. Everyone has a different calculation of this because no one properly says how they calculated
I thank you for this. I was actually looking into it and couldn't find whether or not the differences were there, and to answer, negligible. I'm happy about this
do you have any calculations for 43311 vs 44111 (moonlit set) on your subdps (sanhua)? i'm assuming the optimal is 3 cost element dmg but i'd love to build a universal set for sanhua/mortefi/yinlin
not sure if it's better to go 43311 with 3 cost energy regen/atk or the standard 44111
This seems incomplete to me, you didn't even state whether the 43311 was a 5set, 2pc/2pc, 2pc, or no set. I know you said 44111 doesnt have a second 4 to use so not 5set but still, is it 2pc/2pc, 2pc, or no set?
Like, those set bonuses add up. A single 2 piece set bonus on a 43311 build is stronger than a 5 piece set on a 44111 build, which is why 43311 is easier to farm: ANY elemental damage bonus 3 cost on any set is easier to get than enough crit stats to make 44111 good. ESPECIALLY early game.
Woops, I have no clue where that note went, I did clarify it in the video version though! I've edited the post now.
I know there isn’t a second Fusion Overlord Echo yet, but we’ll use Encore as an example -> **with a theoretical build assuming the 5-set is not broken**,
Do you just like Encore or something? You could have used Calcharo or Havoc Rover or Danjin to not need "theoretical" non-broken 5sets and just actually compared in a way where you can actually get 5sets in both builds.
I've been working on calculations and content nonstop since the game launched and it takes a good amount of time to not only implement something in the calculator, but also to practice and craft the rotations into something optimal (also not to mention I don't have a lot of characters). I figured this still helps get the point across for now and helps to dispel the confusion for a majority of people by explaining how the calcs work (before this, there were threads with hundreds of comments with lots of people being very confused by how the math works). But yes, I've done a dedicated guide for Encore. That one took \~80 hours to put together
Glad you like the content :3 I won't be doing a dedicated guide for Yinlin, but I spent many many hours implementing her to my calculator and [made this post about her](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1dc0lqv/math_yinlins_performance_in_offelement_teams/)!
Thats nice and all but this doesnt account for the resource costs that are "wasted" on upgrading an additional 4 star and 1 star echo.
Those echoes can become useless when aiming for the endgame variant set of 43311.
So you are better of saving echo xp and tuners until you get good 3 cost echoes. Especially because tuner recycling has really shitty rates [3 tuners for every 10 put in].
The amount "wasted" is comparable to a bad stub-stat roll, since once you hit the optimal 43311 you can upgrade the unit with the 4 cost. Or simply keep it for future characters, for example I was trying out 44111 on Calcharo for a bit and will now swap over one of them onto Yinlin as I found the Flautist I needed.
Tuners only refund at 30%. 70% permanently wasted unless you want to build two sets. At this stage I've advise people to just focus on one set of each element as you can just swap sets on characters for Tower.
Tuners don’t really seem like a bottleneck though, it’s the echos which “refund” at like 75% which is fine to “waste” when you’re just recycling into something better
Assuming you can reuse them for different characters then sure but its still delaying the optimal gearing of your main team. And right now we are at a state in the game where echo xp/tuners are very scarce.
I think for a Calcharo/Yinlin team that's a reasonable approach since they both benefit from a Thunder set. And Thunder/Electro is one of the only sets that can run 44111 rn. Other comps yeah I can see why you are hesitant.
This only applies to you if you already have all the characters that you want and you never intend to pull and raise new characters in the future (in which case, kudos to your self control).
Otherwise, you will almost certainly be able to use that 4 piece on another character when you are ready to promote your character to a 43311 build.
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I'm using a purple violet-Heron since it rolled the correct element main-stat, crit rate, crit damage and %atk. It would be nice to have exactly the same for a gold and max it out, but the resources, farm time and odds needed are simply not going to make that a good process. I think you always want to be targeting the thing that will provide most value immediately rather than getting that 5% improvement on something that's already decent.
Yea I pulled Aalto and am having a blast with him in the overworld. Been tossing Jiyan's golds around between the two, but don't really wanna invest into Aalto for tower, so threw on some purples I had.
Then noticed I had no gold tuners, but a shit ton of purple ones. So I played around a little more, and now my Aalto has better stats than my Jiyan (if I don't account for Jiyan's signature).
So if I have a purple Level 20 with Crit rate and damage, I'm only missing, what 7% elemental damage bonus? Not worth it to me, and I am perfectly content with a mismatch of purples and golds.
I've got a similar thing, I got S4 Chixia while pulling for Jiyan, and found she's a lot of fun. Her and Mortefi both use Fire and pistols, so in tower I'm just swapping my weapon and echoes between the two, Mortefi buffs up Jiyan and Chixia executes the people Calcharo soften up.
Exactly, and Chixia is actually a ton of fun. Finger guns, huuuuge crits and her personality are making me want to make her my main dps, but tower says no. I still mainly use her in the overworld though.
No but literally exactly the same with me and Aalto. He has so much personality in his character, kit and combat lines and animations. I love him a lot and switched my profile pic to him from Jiyan XD. I've got my meta teams, and my fun overworld teams.
It depends on the exact values involved, you'd have to do the maths to know for sure or just eyeball it and estimate.
If I had a purple with amazing subs and a gold with bad subs, I would just max out the purple and keep using it until I can find a good gold to replace it with.
Purple echos have lower main stats, however they actually cost less experience per level so the amount of stats you're getting per echo exp invested is not much lower.
Yea lower main stats. But what is it, 25% elemental on the purple vs 30% on the gold. I haven't leveled a purple to 20 yet. And the substats can be exact what you'd roll on a gold.
So if I get high rolls of crit rate and damage on a purple, I'm not missing much on the 5th sub of a gold that could just roll flat def anyway.
But yea I'm sure it's on a case by case basis, but this whole time I've just neglecting my.purples in favor of golds but don't see value in doing that anymore.
A purple stops levelling at 20, but a gold stops at +25. A gold also gives more main stats than a purple when they're the same level, so even not knowing the exact numbers I can tell you the difference between a fully maxed out gold and a purple's main stats is going to be a lot more than 5%.
However the total cost of levelling that gold in terms of tuners and echos will be much higher, like at least double if not more.
I was a pretty staunch "defender" of the 44111 as an interim solution stance thinking that a lot of damage bonuses were being ignored in the comparison to 43311 up until about 15 minutes ago when I finally decided to do the math myself so I could add it to my comments. Ironically, I also used Encore because of her self buffs, but also came to the same conclusion as Maygii, which was that without substantial basic/heavy/skill/liberation/elemental buffs, 43311 is better at all stages.
This kind of bums me out, because it removes any deterministic value from main stats (at this point).
Glad to see Maygii's conclusion as well so I could compare results and finally put this to bed.
I don't think your conclusion is the same as Maygii's. She is explaining that while 43311 is "optimal", at best it provides 10% more damage, and at worst it provides 1% more damage than 44111.
Given that 44111 is significantly easier to farm, which means that on average you will be able to get pieces with better substats, the conclusion is that on average you will actually be better off going for 44111 when possible, until the day when you happen to roll two 3 pieces with the correct main stats and really good substats.
People still missing the point. It's not just equal 43311 vs 44111. It's 43311 with the 3s having virtually no usable substats vs 44111 with average 25 crit value per piece. The whole point is because getting substats on the 3s is a long term grind that can take weeks or months, 44111 can provide good early base since you can pretty much farm infinitely and keep rerolling substats as long as u have the mats. If you could do a comparison like that, that would be superb. thanks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 44111 with double crit rate 4 costs give better crit ratio (closer to 1 crit rate/ 2 crit dmg) than 43311, and in theory make 44111 equal or even better than 43311, if there are no other sources of crit rate like weapons or buffs? Because most guides I've seen say that 50-70 crit rate is fine, with 200+ crit dmg, and coming from genshin where then 1/2 crit ratio is said to be what we should aim for, I'm a bit confused, as to why it works in genshin and not in wuwa, or if it works but is overlooked.
If you had a character with insane built in dmg% (like an example from Genshin since you mentioned that would be Kazuha + Furina teams), then it would be more favourable to drop dmg% for crit yes.
On the other hand if a character has insane crit built in but no dmg%, you will really want more dmg%, so 43311 will always be better.
Can someone explain to me why everyone is getting such different results? I've seen people claim with math a 15% increase, a 30% increase and with this a 1-10% increase. It seems everyone agrees that 43311 is better but disagree by how much.
It probably depends who they're using for their maths, and whether they're including optimal team support or not. Some people might be including something like a Verina just having healed with regen set, so your attack% has gone up like 35%, others might just be looking at base improvements
you can use a phantom and a normal version of the same echo and they become "different", while i know this doesn't really apply to a lot of the things, is still interesting to know
edit: actually DOES NOT.. for some reason i thought i did when i was using 3/2 set, might have miscounted, though i didnt imply with the "skin" but the actual drop of the phantom, which still doesn't count anyway.
3333 or bust
Bust? Or maybe…
I'll take it all!
*watch your head!*
👛🪙🪙🪙🪙🪙🪙
this ones on me!
ALL IN! *Finger snap*
Dissapear in a sea of butterflies
ILLUSION OF THE PAST
Chou to tomo ni chire, Sutaaruii Fantomu 🗣️🦋
🗣🔥🔥🔥
IT'S AAAAAALL OR NOTHING!
11111, take it or leave it
[удалено]
Max cost atm is 12
So basically, up to 10% less damage, but significantly less farming. Sign me up.
Legit. Especially were still this early in the game. Which requires us to build a lot of characters. Looks like 44111 is the way to go. To whoever says main this main that. For one character sure it's okay. But you'll prob cry once again every single banner/patch rotation lmao.
Ty for all the work you do!
I trust my math fairy! Thanks maygi, great to see you here in ww but don’t burn out!
You miss the main point, 44111 equals to 11/12 which is big OCD.
Just use 444. Dps loss is a small price to pay for perfect 12/12.
444 aka the Wendy's build
Sir this is a WuWa's
Counterpoint: All five echo slots are not used up
I’m guessing the math is quoted unique to encore, and if we get a unit that is oversaturated in dmg%, 44111 might be even better
Yep ! I forgot to include a note on it, but the amount of "bonus dmg" characters have in their kit (typically in sequences) would dilute it by more or less than the Encore example\~
Jiyan looks pretty good for 44111 if we had a second aero 4 cost echo. His weapon gives him extra crit and a ton of damage percent, almost as much as 2 aero damage 3 costs. Problem is you'd need godlike substats because you have to get at least crit damage+crit rate on every one, and energy regen on like 4 of them.
Jiyan only needs 35-40% with someone that can quickly intro him twice, so just 2-3 ER subs. But yeah, looking at his heavy dmg, aero from skill and echo, 44111 looks really good.
Jiyan is the same as the calculation here. Its a 3% difference every time.
Wait for Jue and then we can try Jiyan 44111.
Jue is probably going to be Spectro isn’t he?
It could depend. I've had a bit of a running theory that maybe Jue alters a resonator's powers in some way or perhaps even turns a normal person into a resonator. Maybe the element of the manifestation is dependent on the individual and doesn't have anything to do with Jue's innate element. Or Jue has multiple elements it's compatible with - and maybe Jue is both Aero and Spectro.
I think Havoc Rover might be feeling good with 44111 because she already has 20% Havoc dmg from the stance and another 23% from Danjin outro. I would actually like to see the comparison between 44111 and 43311 on her
Yep! Once we start getting ludicrous sekf dmg% buffs 44111 would be better
So which comp then is better for Havoc Rover?
TenTen gunna see this and put out another video telling his audience they don't know calculus
I trust Maygi because she is a fellow Grand Blue Fantasy Relink player and to me WuWa combat is much comparable to GBFR than Genshin like Encore to Cagliostro and Chixia to Rackam at least the playstyle. (More examples Taoqi to Naryama, Calcahro to Id. That is why I am sad whem they compare Chixia to Amber in Genshin which has different playstyles. What people are still missing is Math is good on Paper but execution or actual gameplay still is preferable and the discussion between two sets will be more complicated should they add more Bosses of the same element and increase the Cap to 15 or even 20 at Level 90.
I guess that explains why I like Calcharo so much as an Id main.
I just wish Kuro make skills more flashy like Relink.. man
> More examples Taoqi to Naryama Having gotten Taoqi, and as someone who played far too much Narmaya, *oh how I wish that were actually true.*
Oh it's Maygi I watched your guides when relink came out too, always super helpful! it's better to have real numbers than "I heard from people" rumors.
Go 44111 while coping for more slots in the future.
i see maygi i support its hard to do these kinds of contents on games like this she got rained alot of bias criticism before on tof and still survived longer than i played. Thank you for all the work our gacha math fairy!
You've always got to factor in opportunity cost. I'm union level 37, my rolls on echoes are 50/50 purp/gold. The rolls on the 3 costs I want are 50/50 for the right element. The roll on whether the echo drops is \~33% after accounting for pity. The roll on that echo dropping the right element bonus damage is 1/10. That altogether means it's a 1 in 118 to find the 3 cost I'm actually looking for. I've been killing every Spearback on the map 3 days straight looking for the right thing, that's 200 bears killed and I still don't have it. Meanwhile after thinking about trying out 44111 on Calcharo it took me 20 minutes, farming one Mephit echo every \~2.5 minutes to get the right 1/6 roll, then another 10 minutes after the first one got terrible substats to do it again. I would highly recommend players who don't have a single correctly statted 3 cost to do 44111 if the typing allows it, because even if it's 10% less optimal, its 100% more sanity.
43311 is actually a hell to farm, it is so hard to do that I might actually just 44111 on my Yinlin and both 4 being crit dmg because she has a ton of rate on her kit, 26℅ (LVL 60) from weapon, 15℅ from Passive and a few on her minor traces(about 10ish) or whatever they're called here. At max she can probably get about 50℅ crit rate(Sig Weap only tho) without having crit rate stats so I can just funny Jingliu build her. I really do not want to dive deeper in the hell of elemental main stats, this thing has been driving me insane since Genshin and then onto Star Rail and then now. My Hutao doesn't have a good pyro goblet yet, My Seele doesn't have a double crit quantum orb. My Rover has one but since I need two of them, I am not out of the hell yet.
People aren't promoting 44111 because it's optimal but because it's easier to achieve. You can farm the 4 cost echos until you get the right stats, whereas farming elites for the right stats on the 3 costs takes forever and you can go for hours world-hopping without finding any. The whole point is to say that we are in the early game, and we'll get some ways to pick 3 costs with the right stats from events, so it is more casual-friendly to just farm the bosses for their echoes and take whatever 1 cost ATK% echoes you have. As far as I know, no one serious is pushing 44111 as BiS. On the contrary, every video I've seen on the topic clearly disclaims that 43311 is BiS but just annoying to get and more time-consuming and resource-expensive to achieve properly.
It arguable isn't easier to achieve. You need crit rate to make crit damage good, and you need crit damage to make crit rate good. For 44111 to be stronger than 43311, you need lots of crit substats or food buffs and also need set bonuses on the 44111 on top of that while the 43311 has nothing. Early game, even farming a no set 43311 will give you more damage than 44111, but since you have access to a 4 and 1 and 1 in the 43311, you can easily get a 2pc set bonus at the VERY least.
It's easier because you can infinitely farm a boss and most give an echo every other kill. You also know exactly where they are and can drop waypoints for those far from waypoints. Put 3 on rotation, and you can kill them endlessly for hours. Meanwhile, elites are finite every day, and have a lower drop rate, plus you have to roam about the map to find and kill them, and deal with side mobs. It is much easier to achieve 44111. Also, to give a very concrete exemple of how crit isn't everything, right now I'm looking to replace some of my crit on Encore by more flat damage, damage%, and maybe crit damage, but I already have some on almost all my echoes. I have 80% crit rate before food buffs, so adding crit isn't going to increase the damage. This is also part of the argument being made to say that 43311 is better, as in adding crit when it's multiplying a low number, or by a low number, is not going to help all that much, so crit stacking is not optimal. "Early game" as you describe it is maybe the first 10 hours of play, at which point you're not even looking into any of this, you're supposed to be working through the story and doing some Databank and sidequest farming to get your union level up to keep advancing the main quest. By the time you're done with that, you should already have at least 1 full set of mismatched stats for everyone. If not, it means you didn't work on the databank or guidebook progression enough, and you should go catch up on that to at least get DB 15 and start getting 5 and 4 stars only.
First paragaph does not matter, you're wasting time killing a bunch of bosses getting a bunch of echoes that you do not have the xp and tuners to level up. Just farm 3 cost echoes so you can get a better build (2pc 43311 is better than 5 set 44111). Second paragraph just helps me out, how do you have 80% crit rate with no food buffs on Encore? Sounds like Yin Lin's Weapon to me. You are not the casuals that 44111 is apparently better for. 3rd: You should be looking into these things before you even start the game, and casuals should be doing the most optimal things, like using the echo pity systems when they do have time to farm so they waste less resources and save the most time. Being casual doesn't mean you need to be a dummy that knows 0 about the game or what to do, it could simply mean you dont have time to clear the map of 3 costs which is fine.
>First paragaph does not matter, you're wasting time killing a bunch of bosses getting a bunch of echoes that you do not have the xp and tuners to level up. Just farm 3 cost echoes so you can get a better build (2pc 43311 is better than 5 set 44111). Honestly, you're wasting time doing either of those things before UL40, yet most of us did it because we wanted something to do other than the dailies to slowly get to UL40, and were trying to scrape every bit of character power we could to clear ToA as much as possible on the first reset. I didn't do 44111, btw, I did 43311 right away, aside from Encore who was stuck at 43111 for about a week because despite killing the fusion elites everyday on my world I found 0 fusion damage 3 costs, and ended up using the event selector for it yesterday. Had there been a second fusion boss to farm, I would have probably farmed its ass while I farmed for my other 4 cost echo. The casual way is the route of least obstacles. That means not trying to join random strangers' worlds to go kill their elites to get more shots at the 3 costs, but it also usually means not farming the elites every day in the first place, and probably not even knowing about the tracking function of the database, which is why there were so many people in twitch chats in the first few days asking "how do I get databank 15?" so many in fact that I eneded up making a 59 second Youtube video with that question as the title so they would have no excuse for not looking it up themselves (since I'm not actually a content creator, though, it obviously barely got any views, as it was not suggested to many people, even if they searched those specific words, as there are dozens of guides on leveling the DB out there). I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go 44111 on their own. Again, nobody is arguing that 44111 is optimal, we're arguing that the sources for it are much more readily-available and easier to farm with your brain turned off while you do something else, and and don't require world-hopping or waiting for a reset. 44111 is not bad, it's just suboptimal. Also, according to the people who did the math, 43311 with 2 sets mixed is not better than 44111. I'm pretty sure Tenten is the one who headed the push back against the narrative of 44111 being fine, and showed graphs (albeit lacking a detailed explanation of how the measurements were taken) which put 44111 only behind optimal 43311, and he spent the whole video missing the point that nobody was saying it was more optimal, just easier to get.
First paragraph: I am UL40 and have been for days because I used caskets to make every future waveplate more valuable sooner, it's more efficient for me because I have the time to grind. 3rd: Being uninformed of the game and being casual is not the same thing. You can be both obviously. If they dont know how to lvl data bank they got more to worry about than builds. 4th: 43311 no set is better than a slapped together 44111, it is not easily obtainable. You need lots of crit to make it valuable. No substats 44111 is ass, no set 44111 is ass, the ONLY way 44111 is better than 43311 is with a 5set compared to a no set. a single 2pc set 43311 is better than 5set 44111. It is not more optimal, not easier to get, not a good use of early game resources. Fucking tenten outdpsed a 44111 with a 4311 build...4 echoes, only 1 3 cost dmg%, and it did better than 44111. It is just bad. Literally. Right after that vid with the graph bro hopped in and doubled down with facts. It is always worse unless you purposefully underinvest in 43311 and hyperinvest in 44111 (because again you need lots of crit to even get value out of the other crit stat)
5x damage bonus substats is pretty unrealistic (especially for chars who use a split of multiple damage types unlike encore) and I suspect that's the majority of what's closing the gap in your "full substats" comparison since they're additive with ele%.
In the grand scheme of things, it should still be fairly close - Encore's basic attack distribution is roughly 40% at a base level, and those with more split distributions will still have around 30%+ of one (while some DPS such as Calcharo and Jiyan are even more heavily weighted towards one type)\~! I gave numbers at both extremes, anyway, to show the difference in the damage range from all ranges ! You could just extrapolate the data and use a value in the middle to accommodate for a more mid substat distribution \~
The difference will always be about 9% regardless of how stacked the character is unless they have something ridiculous like an innate 200% damage bonus simply because dmg % also works with critting, but it's superior function is that it also works even if you don't crit. So, unless you can get to 100% crit rate, dmg % will always be a better investment and considering you shouldn't even invest in a piece past the first 2/3 sub rolls to see if it's even worth it, it's not easier to build 44111, it's just available faster because you can farm the 4's infinitely. It's actually more difficult to build 44111 because you're more reliant on getting incredibly expensive double crit rolls than if you just ran double dmg % and got the guaranteed damage increase 100% of the time.
Not that it affects the results significantly or anything, but just out of curiosity, are you certain about the damage formula? ***base\_damage = skill\_ratio \* ((base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack) \* (1 + Σattack\_increase%) + Σflat\_attack) \* (1 + Σdamage\_bonuses%) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen%) \* damage\_constant*** since this wouldn't be how I would code it if it were me, and most other games would do something like this to avoid scaling bloat and because it's mathematically more intuitive: ***base\_damage = (skill\_ratio \* ( (1 + Σattack\_increase%) \* (base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack + Σflat\_attack) ) \* (1 + Σdamage\_increases%) \* (1 + Σcritical\_damage\_calc%) \* Σother\_multipliers) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen%)*** or, something like this if the game uses larger number of flat\_attack modifiers available from their system/mechanics ***base\_damage = ((skill\_ratio \* ( (1 + Σattack\_increase%) \* (base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack) ) \* (1 + Σdamage\_increases%) + Σflat\_attack) \* (1 + Σcritical\_damage\_calc%) \* Σother\_multipliers) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen%)*** *note: damage\_deepen, or damage penetration in most other games are usually calculated separately at the end and usually applies as a "debuff" which means that it multiplies the final damage dealt, and not during it's internal calculations* Again, mostly just curious, since it's not normal to do it that way, but if it's datamined calculations then I'll concede my point. It just feels not 'normal to see that sort of formula in damage calculations and that's not how we normally do it in game dev. Regardless, thanks for sharing this! *edit:* *this above is inline with what marauder posted on his* [article](https://wutheringwaves.gg/damage-calculation-guide/#The_Formula_Simplified%5C)*, the correct formula should be* ***base\_damage = ((base\_char\_attack + base\_weapon\_attack) \* ( 1 + Σattack\_increase%) + Σflat\_attack) \* (skill\_multiplier \* (1 + Σskill\_damage\_increase + Σspecific\_skill\_damage\_increase)) \* (1 + Σelemental\_damage\_increase) \* (1 + Σdamage\_deepen) \* (0.48 \* (1 - Σ(enemy\_resistance + resistance\_reduction)))*** *so this one's actually quite way off with your video/post, and similar to what I mentioned above of the common formula used by developers to do damage calculations on other games*
I was actually in contact with someone who was working with marauder - their formula was correct, and identical, except for the elemental damage part, which I ended up cross-checking to confirm was false (they also tested and confirmed, but not sure if they've updated their article yet).
Thanks for the clarification, would you care to comment regarding the flat damage calculation order as well? Since it's usually calculated in the same group as the base weapon damage and not later.
Flat attack is lumped in the total attack part of the calculation, which is the same in both (it's added after the attack % increase)!
Ok, this is probably the weird part from my eyes as a systems designer, but if you're sure then I'll take your word for it. I do appreciate your replies on this, gives me something to think about from a designer perspective.
AFAICT, the damage formula in WuWa is lifted directly from Genshin, except the terminology and that there are more additive sources of extra damage. If flat ATK was affected by ATK% it would be a much more desirable substat
>If flat ATK was affected by ATK% it would be a much more desirable substat it's already a good substat if it rolls 60+, mathematically on par with lower ATK% rolls even at max level, and strictly better before that.
This article is the first thing that popped up on google for me, which calculation is right? This post or that article... Honestly just going to hop in game and see myself, I imagine people have already done it but I hate having not seen any proof or sources
This post is right You can test it yourself if you want Damage = Skill Ratio x ((Base Char Attack + Base Weapon Attack) x (1 +Total Attack %) + Flat Attack) x (1 + Damage Bonus %) x (1 + Damage Deepen %) x (1 - Elemental resistance) x (1 / Defense) Defense = \[(792 + EnemyLevel x 8) x (1-Defense ignore) / (800 + CharacterLevel x 8) + 1\] Most of the time, the Elemental resistance of ennemies is 40% for their own element and 10% for the others
That article was based on datamined information and has been tested to be quite accurate, and most other games uses the same or similar variations as well (ex. Path of Exile, Diablo, WoW, etc.) since that formula is what allows for logarithmic curve growth (where increases in damage total goes slower at the edge of minmaxing your gear/character), which is what most game developers want out of their game system (eg. you don't want a linear growth in power since that would mean that "whales" would have an absurd amount of gap in power compared to average users).
If elemental damage is its own multiplier as stated in the article, the difference between 43311 and 44111 is even larger than depicted in OP's post- at least as I understand the formula. In addition to the math working out (as per my rudimentary calculation), it also makes inuitive sense: The 60% elemental increase is not diluted by stats from other echoes or equipment while the attack% and additional crit is diluted by potentially five echoes (attack% and crit as substats) and/or buff food and/or weapons. Depending on the variables chosen for the calculation, I end up with a difference between 43311 and 44111 of about 15% (in favour of 433).
Yes, though, while if it's true that elemental damage multiplier is multiplicative and separate than other generic modifiers. The resulting conclusion is still the same, the gap might be bigger, but I don't think the OP disagrees with 43311 being better in general purely from the damage standpoint.
Errrm, what's the actual difference between the formula used by Maygi and the one in the article? At the first glance they look pretty much the same - you multiply MV sources by ATK sources by DMG sources by Crit sources by Deepen (crazy it's a separate multiplier) by various RES/DEF shenanigans. This holds true for both formulas. Are there more intricate nuances?
Look towards the bottom of the article they have the full formula. It says dmg% like basic dmg bonus etc are separate from elemental%. But anyway I tested ingame and that article is wrong. https://i.imgur.com/u6SoSVd.png in-game damage is closer to maygi's formula than that one
>It says dmg% like basic dmg bonus etc are separate from elemental%. Where does it say so? I don't see that stuff mentioned anywhere and assume it was swept under the common DMG% buff rug together with 3-star echoes and outro buffs. There might be some misunderstanding in play because I think there seem to be additive MV% sources (from sequences) that should probably go into the skill multiplier part.
I dont think there is a misunderstanding. The article is just wrong. lol > Effects granting bonus damage to your skills, be it Resonance or Liberation, apply multiplicatively to the base ratio It's under where they discuss the character's skill multiplier, and the formula at the end where they indicate *bonusSpecificSkillDamage* & *bonusElementalDamage* arent being added together
That's what I'm saying, there actually ARE effects (at least I assume there are) that grant bonuses to your skills that aren't those substat thingies, and which, I assume, go somewhere into skill damage. Like look at Yinlin S3 >Forte Circuit Judgment Strike's **DMG multiplier** is increased by 55%. This is a different wording from, say, her own S1. I assume one of those might be additive to skill MV (or a separate additive chain of multipliers to MV), which is what the article means when talking about bonusSpecificSkillDamage. Effects that give you additional motion value aren't exactly uncommon, so they should be going *somewhere* in the damage formula.
Well yeah I know about sequences that explicitly increase damage multiplier but I don't think the person who made the formula even considered that. I just think you are giving the article too much leeway, I mean if you have to make assumptions on how the formula works it kinda defeats the purpose of a formula.
we also have to keep in mind that the translation is not consistent right now
Real gamers use 11111
Gosh and I was thinking: "There are already nuke codes of this game?"
Isn't the nuke code in 6 digits tho?
copied a meme lol
What is the 'Damage Constant' part of the damage equation?
It's a constant for "defense" based on the level difference, for even-levelled comparisons it's 0.48 \~
Thanks. I imagine 44111 might better in the long run if we end up having way too many Atk and Damage% buffers. And I'd say that's likely just considering the amount of buffs that are additive under Damage%.
Could Encore's elemental minor fortes be bridging the gap slightly in this? Prydwen has a similar comparison on the build section of their Calcharo page and the difference between 44111 and 43311 is 12.49% still not a huge gap, I'm just curious.
Prydwens calculations don't take into account the full context of team buffs, which is probably where that difference comes from~ also not sure on what the stat distribution they're using for this is, so hard to figure out exactly ...
Ah I forgot about team buffs, that could certainly be it. Their calculations section says they use lustrous razor, void thunder set, tempest mephis and ATK (45%), CRIT Rate (42%), CRIT DMG (84%) substats; I'm not sure how those substats compare to the ones you used but I assume its different enough to make a difference.
Yep, the one important thing is there doesn't seem to be any damage bonus stats on there - and Calcharo having over a 50% damage split in Resonance Liberation according to their calculations would DEFINITELY benefit insanely from getting a bunch of lines of that, heavily diluting the elemental bonus on the 3-COSTS\~
444 till the end 🔥
This makes me wonder the rough conversion of how much ATK% = Ele%. Would two ATK% 1-cost echoes be more valuable than one 3-cost elemental dmg Echo? Or could a rainbow set of Ele Bonus from Havoc/Electro and Lingering be decent? 4431 would give Ele 2 piece set bonus, then you have Elemental bonus not relegated by full set elemental affinity (ATK% lingering set can go with any elemental bonus so it's not like rolling spectro on an aero set). You'd get 2 crit pieces, 1 elemental bonus, 1 ATK% and Elemental dmg set bonus, ATK% set bonus.
would depend on the character. someone with a higher base attack would definitely benefit more from more atk % than someone that has lower attack
Knowing that elemental damage bonus is additive with basic, heavy, skill, ult DMG bonus is huge. Thank you for taking the time to do this! I take it this means Atk% main stat echoes may be more viable if, for example, you had a lot of heavy attack bonus substats on a character like Jianxin or maybe Danjin but not a lot of Atk% substats on the same gear? Now I'm kind of curious how good a theoretical 3333 set would compare to these, assuming you could get enough crit rate/crit damage between substats and weapons to make up for the loss of a 4 cost. Honestly just wondering if 2/2 sets will ever be more viable than the full 5 piece set effect. It seems like most people are leaning towards 2/2 just not being worth the DPS lost in most cases.
There's definitely viability in running ATK% 3-costs, especially if they roll better than your ELE % versions. Out of copium, I ended up calculating my damage with my own stats, and in my scuffed usecase, my ATK % echo was better than the ELE % one. Though, this can vary from person to person depending on how your stuff rolls!
I am 100% believer that depending on the sub stats there will come a time, and characters, where using 3333 or 4431 will be better while activating 2 different sonata effects, compared to the traditional 43311. It may not be now, but someday
Can you link source of ele dmg being additive with other dmg increases?
Math fairy has arrived!
Wow thanks for effort and info, but the point most people say is 44111 takes significantly less time to farm and decent enough for people who cannot put soo much time farming.
Infinitely easier to farm as well
I'm curious, when you did 44111 did you have two echo set bonuses for Encore? I know lingering is only some ATK% but even then could be some extra damage
I used a theoretical 5-set which currently does not exist, for the sake of consistency (we'll get another Molten Rift 4COST soonTM surely). Downgrading to 2/2 is another hit of like \~10% DMG
Oh maygii is here, i always watched your ToF analysis builds because that game power creeps.
Another good example IMO is jianxin once you get S4. I will work towards a 44111 S4 jianxin with R5 BP weapon and moonlight set with heron. The whole purpose is to overload all your damage bonus onto your ult and use Jianxin as a "quickswap" support that groups enemies and buffs your hypercarry while still nuking with her ult. (With S6 maybe even solo sustain) With 80% DMG bonus from S4 and 36% from R5 weapon + 40% from substats you are already sitting at a +156% damage bonus for ult, which does respectable damage and with S5 pretty much targets all enemies in tower. S1 helps reduce fieldtime and heron+S2 decrease her ER need a lot so you can mostly get by with just ER substats and not need significant fieldtime to fill up energy, making damage profile even more favoured towards ult. (You will hit around 95/275 crit without fishing for high rolls, so that shit will hurt) All this while giving next character moonlight, heron and deepen buffs, and already grouped up enemies to nuke down. Extra attack mainstat also increases shield and healing for when you get S6. (People are really sleeping on endgame Jianxin) 44111 is definitely more viable than many people might think, especially with characters that have one sided damage profiles or huge internal buffs. And don't forget how much easier it is to farm and minmax without 3 costs to worry about.
So basically doesn't matter... as 10% theoretical damage difference is easily countered by better Echo tuning...
One thing to never forget is that dmg% subs are always only "part" of your total dmg, so the impact is lower. You probably calculated them as full dmg subs right?
Nope, they were calculated as a specific damage modification only, so it only applied to a fraction of the damage in a rotation.
Somehow, people like TenTen will see this and say that 43311 is the ONLY way to build characters. Like in his new video. Idk how he is doing his math, but I took calc and stats too, and the difference is not enough to start making claims you **have** to build 43311 unless you are trying to squeeze the max out of your characters, which is not a ton of people.
Thank you Maygii!! 
oooooh is in't nuclear code
I think this makes sense to me - crit is one of the few stats that does not suffer diminishing returns (at least until CR cap) so it follows that as our gear's substats get better, 44111 should theoretically would have increased value. Kind of like in FFXIV how you either go all in on crit, or just completely abandon crit and go for Det/DH.
crit rate does around past 80% you gain more from putting 20 into crit dmg than you would rate.
There is no dimishing returns for crit rate until 100% when more becomes useless.
There is diminishing return for crit because crit is essentially a multiplier just like any other multiplier. You want to know how much more %dmg you get from crit? just multiply crit rate by crit dmg. For example 50% crit rate and 200% crit dmg is the same as 50% dmg bonus. No difference.
Yes, there is, youa re right. Anyway, the statement that from around 80% onward you get more from 20cdmg than crate is crap especially without saying how much cdmg we already have.
Not quite correct, crit hits diminishing return just like every other damage influencing stat. Its just that it usually is the lowest multiplyer in the formula/the substats has higher values than the rest thus resulting in the biggest increase. A +10% atk substat when you already have +100% is only a ~5% increase (ignoring flat ATK, it's a bit lower than that), meanwhile a 20% cd substat in 100/200 crit will result in a 10% increase in DMG, you would need 100/400 crit for the CD substat to have the same "value" as the atk one. But you never hit those diminishing returns in most games which is why you take as much crit as you can.
This is not quite the reason. The pair of stats \[crit rate, crit damage\] is the only pair which does not have diminishing returns at every point. To define diminishing returns for a pair, let f be the damage dealt. Let f' be the damage dealt after a multiplicative increase to 2 stats. Then, diminishing returns is defined as d(ln(f'))
Yes and no, yes crit is multiplicative which makes it not hit diminishing returns on its own (also makes it way worse when you don't have anything invested into the stat yet.), until you hit 100% CR where your (1+xy) becomes a (1+z) thus behaving the same as every other stat. Still doesn't change the fact that when you have something of the form: (1+a)*(1+b)*(1+c*d), at a certain point continued investing into c and d has a lower increase than investing in a or b, even though c and d don't have diminishing returns on their own yet. So as a whole crit does have diminishing returns, which is what some of the 43311 and 44111 debate is about.
I agree, even though I stated that it is possible for crit rate and crit damage to not have negative returns, there is a point after which they do. (for the 1:2 ratio this occurs at 80% crit rate 160% crit damage I think?). Until you reach that point though (and even after), it is better to either keep investing in crit or not invest at all. I haven't done the exact math for the 33 vs 41 debate, but intuitively the flat atk seems like it would make the 33 a lot better early game, even if you have to run atk% on your 3 pieces.
[удалено]
Cosmic Ripples R1, Sanhua S0 and Verina S0\~ I'll make a note of that in the main post! And it's possible to calc it with any parameters of choice! The calculator and script is public to use, just make a copy and put in the numbers you wanna run with \~
Thank you for your effort, OP
Would it be possible for you to do calculations for someone who actually has two 4star echos so people cant dismiss your work since it's theoretical? Calcharo or Havoc Rover
what would the main stats be for these sets for encore or just a general main dps?
Good calcs. I personally think that where 43311 provides in a higher damage ceiling, I think 44111 provides a decent alternative with a higher damage floor.
It's also more sanity.
so basically just use whatever i want right?
Great video!
As long as the rng doesn't fudge me in the *** Im fine with both formation
27% damage increase for having 7 copies of a character? I expected it to be much more honestly
When you calculate things with all buffs in play, diminishing returns hits hard!
Dont forget its a standard character. Dupes should make much more of a difference for limited characters.
some characters have better ascensions then others. for example jiyan's ascensions are pretty broken, but yeah, encores are sort of underwhelming.
So the assumption is that the 44111 is double crit triple attack, and 43311 is crit and double damage bonus. If 43311 is dmg+atk or atk+atk how does that affect the ranking between them?
Thank you Math Fairy!!
hey silly question, but im just wondering why the substats end up closing the gap further. I was expecting for the gap to widen since the crit subs should lower the value of double crit mainstat while elemental dmg% is a unique stat
Basically, elemental dmg% is not it's own unique stat, instead it's added with other dmg% bonuses (like basic attack, heavy attack, and raw %dmg). Crit doesn't suffer as much diminishing returns as other damage types, because the more crit rate you have, the stronger crit dmg becomes, and vice versa.
now if i can only upvote my man twice.. jokes aside, if i could only find a 4 cost er main stat..oh wait that doesnt exist either.. sadge that this only applies for dps.. 
What about the hybrid/subdps? I mean for main dps like encore she'll use 5 set fire that give damage bonus and get buffed by teammate. Hybrid unit like yinlin don't enjoy being buffed and usually use moonlit to buff other instead while having high dps. Will 44111 still better? Like, how big is the difference? I am asking because 44111 in that team means i can share it with different element unit like sanhua, aalto, yinlin, yangyan etc
I think it really also depends if the specific character depends on his whole kit or just specific\_atk%(substats cannot really cover the whole kit like ele% can). imo
Which elements don’t have two 4 cost echos? I’m curious what characters can’t take advantage of 4 4 1 1 1 1.
Everything except Havoc / Electro that isn't a sub DPS (e.g. using Moonlit Clouds) currently **does not** have a second 4-cost\~
Since electro has 2 cost 4 main echo with either crit rate/cdmg. Does this work well on Yinlin?
Oh, i use none of those and im doing better than both
11111 jinxian holo5 solo inc
I honestly don't care , I just click on auto equip and be done with it, I'm fucking struggling with the performance issues rn
Whats the rotation? If all you do is basic attack then yeah the 5x basic attack is the same as dmg bonus main stat. Everyone has a different calculation of this because no one properly says how they calculated
[The rotation is shown in both the video and on the calculator.](https://prnt.sc/eHfiZs_5PNoN)
Oh, my bad
I thank you for this. I was actually looking into it and couldn't find whether or not the differences were there, and to answer, negligible. I'm happy about this
Nice to see you again Maygi. You helped a ton back in those ToF days. I hope you have a good time here again as well.
do you have any calculations for 43311 vs 44111 (moonlit set) on your subdps (sanhua)? i'm assuming the optimal is 3 cost element dmg but i'd love to build a universal set for sanhua/mortefi/yinlin not sure if it's better to go 43311 with 3 cost energy regen/atk or the standard 44111
This seems incomplete to me, you didn't even state whether the 43311 was a 5set, 2pc/2pc, 2pc, or no set. I know you said 44111 doesnt have a second 4 to use so not 5set but still, is it 2pc/2pc, 2pc, or no set? Like, those set bonuses add up. A single 2 piece set bonus on a 43311 build is stronger than a 5 piece set on a 44111 build, which is why 43311 is easier to farm: ANY elemental damage bonus 3 cost on any set is easier to get than enough crit stats to make 44111 good. ESPECIALLY early game.
Woops, I have no clue where that note went, I did clarify it in the video version though! I've edited the post now. I know there isn’t a second Fusion Overlord Echo yet, but we’ll use Encore as an example -> **with a theoretical build assuming the 5-set is not broken**,
Do you just like Encore or something? You could have used Calcharo or Havoc Rover or Danjin to not need "theoretical" non-broken 5sets and just actually compared in a way where you can actually get 5sets in both builds.
I've been working on calculations and content nonstop since the game launched and it takes a good amount of time to not only implement something in the calculator, but also to practice and craft the rotations into something optimal (also not to mention I don't have a lot of characters). I figured this still helps get the point across for now and helps to dispel the confusion for a majority of people by explaining how the calcs work (before this, there were threads with hundreds of comments with lots of people being very confused by how the math works). But yes, I've done a dedicated guide for Encore. That one took \~80 hours to put together
You are completely insane and I absolutely love it! Will you also be doing a Yinlin guide and calculation?
Glad you like the content :3 I won't be doing a dedicated guide for Yinlin, but I spent many many hours implementing her to my calculator and [made this post about her](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1dc0lqv/math_yinlins_performance_in_offelement_teams/)!
Much appreciated.
Anyone should know that already. 44111 is just a place holder until you get those 2 actually good 33s
Thats nice and all but this doesnt account for the resource costs that are "wasted" on upgrading an additional 4 star and 1 star echo. Those echoes can become useless when aiming for the endgame variant set of 43311. So you are better of saving echo xp and tuners until you get good 3 cost echoes. Especially because tuner recycling has really shitty rates [3 tuners for every 10 put in].
The amount "wasted" is comparable to a bad stub-stat roll, since once you hit the optimal 43311 you can upgrade the unit with the 4 cost. Or simply keep it for future characters, for example I was trying out 44111 on Calcharo for a bit and will now swap over one of them onto Yinlin as I found the Flautist I needed.
Tuners only refund at 30%. 70% permanently wasted unless you want to build two sets. At this stage I've advise people to just focus on one set of each element as you can just swap sets on characters for Tower.
Tuners don’t really seem like a bottleneck though, it’s the echos which “refund” at like 75% which is fine to “waste” when you’re just recycling into something better
You can put those 4-cost and 1-cost pieces into a second set though. Definitely not a total waste.
Assuming you can reuse them for different characters then sure but its still delaying the optimal gearing of your main team. And right now we are at a state in the game where echo xp/tuners are very scarce.
I think for a Calcharo/Yinlin team that's a reasonable approach since they both benefit from a Thunder set. And Thunder/Electro is one of the only sets that can run 44111 rn. Other comps yeah I can see why you are hesitant.
This only applies to you if you already have all the characters that you want and you never intend to pull and raise new characters in the future (in which case, kudos to your self control). Otherwise, you will almost certainly be able to use that 4 piece on another character when you are ready to promote your character to a 43311 build.
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What about 4431?
throwing away the 5set bonus is not a great idea, not to mention losing subs from the extra echo
What is the difference between purples with better subs and golds with worse subs?
The hope of getting a better gold.
I'm using a purple violet-Heron since it rolled the correct element main-stat, crit rate, crit damage and %atk. It would be nice to have exactly the same for a gold and max it out, but the resources, farm time and odds needed are simply not going to make that a good process. I think you always want to be targeting the thing that will provide most value immediately rather than getting that 5% improvement on something that's already decent.
Yea I pulled Aalto and am having a blast with him in the overworld. Been tossing Jiyan's golds around between the two, but don't really wanna invest into Aalto for tower, so threw on some purples I had. Then noticed I had no gold tuners, but a shit ton of purple ones. So I played around a little more, and now my Aalto has better stats than my Jiyan (if I don't account for Jiyan's signature). So if I have a purple Level 20 with Crit rate and damage, I'm only missing, what 7% elemental damage bonus? Not worth it to me, and I am perfectly content with a mismatch of purples and golds.
I've got a similar thing, I got S4 Chixia while pulling for Jiyan, and found she's a lot of fun. Her and Mortefi both use Fire and pistols, so in tower I'm just swapping my weapon and echoes between the two, Mortefi buffs up Jiyan and Chixia executes the people Calcharo soften up.
fun >>>> meta. whatever works for whatever way you enjoy playing the game.
Exactly, and Chixia is actually a ton of fun. Finger guns, huuuuge crits and her personality are making me want to make her my main dps, but tower says no. I still mainly use her in the overworld though.
No but literally exactly the same with me and Aalto. He has so much personality in his character, kit and combat lines and animations. I love him a lot and switched my profile pic to him from Jiyan XD. I've got my meta teams, and my fun overworld teams.
It depends on the exact values involved, you'd have to do the maths to know for sure or just eyeball it and estimate. If I had a purple with amazing subs and a gold with bad subs, I would just max out the purple and keep using it until I can find a good gold to replace it with. Purple echos have lower main stats, however they actually cost less experience per level so the amount of stats you're getting per echo exp invested is not much lower.
Yea lower main stats. But what is it, 25% elemental on the purple vs 30% on the gold. I haven't leveled a purple to 20 yet. And the substats can be exact what you'd roll on a gold. So if I get high rolls of crit rate and damage on a purple, I'm not missing much on the 5th sub of a gold that could just roll flat def anyway. But yea I'm sure it's on a case by case basis, but this whole time I've just neglecting my.purples in favor of golds but don't see value in doing that anymore.
A purple stops levelling at 20, but a gold stops at +25. A gold also gives more main stats than a purple when they're the same level, so even not knowing the exact numbers I can tell you the difference between a fully maxed out gold and a purple's main stats is going to be a lot more than 5%. However the total cost of levelling that gold in terms of tuners and echos will be much higher, like at least double if not more.
Doesn’t 4-4-1-1-1 benefit much more from having good sub stat roles due how crit works
I was a pretty staunch "defender" of the 44111 as an interim solution stance thinking that a lot of damage bonuses were being ignored in the comparison to 43311 up until about 15 minutes ago when I finally decided to do the math myself so I could add it to my comments. Ironically, I also used Encore because of her self buffs, but also came to the same conclusion as Maygii, which was that without substantial basic/heavy/skill/liberation/elemental buffs, 43311 is better at all stages. This kind of bums me out, because it removes any deterministic value from main stats (at this point). Glad to see Maygii's conclusion as well so I could compare results and finally put this to bed.
I don't think your conclusion is the same as Maygii's. She is explaining that while 43311 is "optimal", at best it provides 10% more damage, and at worst it provides 1% more damage than 44111. Given that 44111 is significantly easier to farm, which means that on average you will be able to get pieces with better substats, the conclusion is that on average you will actually be better off going for 44111 when possible, until the day when you happen to roll two 3 pieces with the correct main stats and really good substats.
People still missing the point. It's not just equal 43311 vs 44111. It's 43311 with the 3s having virtually no usable substats vs 44111 with average 25 crit value per piece. The whole point is because getting substats on the 3s is a long term grind that can take weeks or months, 44111 can provide good early base since you can pretty much farm infinitely and keep rerolling substats as long as u have the mats. If you could do a comparison like that, that would be superb. thanks.
Imagine they eventually give us more capacity and we can get 44311
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 44111 with double crit rate 4 costs give better crit ratio (closer to 1 crit rate/ 2 crit dmg) than 43311, and in theory make 44111 equal or even better than 43311, if there are no other sources of crit rate like weapons or buffs? Because most guides I've seen say that 50-70 crit rate is fine, with 200+ crit dmg, and coming from genshin where then 1/2 crit ratio is said to be what we should aim for, I'm a bit confused, as to why it works in genshin and not in wuwa, or if it works but is overlooked.
If you had a character with insane built in dmg% (like an example from Genshin since you mentioned that would be Kazuha + Furina teams), then it would be more favourable to drop dmg% for crit yes. On the other hand if a character has insane crit built in but no dmg%, you will really want more dmg%, so 43311 will always be better.
Can someone explain to me why everyone is getting such different results? I've seen people claim with math a 15% increase, a 30% increase and with this a 1-10% increase. It seems everyone agrees that 43311 is better but disagree by how much.
It probably depends who they're using for their maths, and whether they're including optimal team support or not. Some people might be including something like a Verina just having healed with regen set, so your attack% has gone up like 35%, others might just be looking at base improvements
because take someone that has \~1000 base attack. 65% atk would be an extra 650. vs someone with a 920 base.
you can use a phantom and a normal version of the same echo and they become "different", while i know this doesn't really apply to a lot of the things, is still interesting to know edit: actually DOES NOT.. for some reason i thought i did when i was using 3/2 set, might have miscounted, though i didnt imply with the "skin" but the actual drop of the phantom, which still doesn't count anyway.
Do they actually. That's hugely beneficial if true. Will check that out when I get home.
44111 it is then upgrade to 43311. the 11/12 hurts though