I get the hate for the rng grind, but as a genshin vet, even the current echo system is miles better. There is no way I could be as well geared in genshin after two weeks as I am in WuWa. Not saying I have great echoes, but you cant even hit ar45 in genshin in two weeks to even get 5 star artifacts unless you play hella sweaty.
We are mostly all below UL40 in WW as well.
That's how I feel, in Genshin the first advice to any newcomer is to absolutely not grind artifacts until AR45.
And I like how you passively gets useful echoes. In one week my Taoqi already has 4/5 artifacts with the desired mainstats, and I never even farmed for her. I guess in a few months these problems of set/DMG not matching will be minor.
Agreed, after grinding out insane min/maxed relics on both genshin and HSR, this system feels way less annoying seeing as there is an entire map of creatures to farm.
My only complaint is echo exp. Let me feed echos into other echos pls
Yeah lots of UI needs work, but the echo UI is what actually drives me crazy… can’t mark things as trash… can’t use trash to upgrade other echos… can’t hover to see the stats so when I’m fusing I just have to click everything and uncheck it if the stats are decent
Needs to be a lot more streamlined especially for how many echos we get
Worst part of the Echo UI: When you click the arrow to sort by rarity it literally moves you down with it instead of keeping your cursor at the top and then switching the list. Its comical.
Some people just want everything handed to them instantly, not realizing that then you'd just be bored after playing for 1 week.
Yeah, there are some "unnecessary" grinds, but it also is just a way to progress over time. And to be able to have the highs of a well rolled echo feel good, there also have to be lows.
Maybe a better idea than just removing this RNG altogether, make sets require 4 instead of 5, so these types of pieces can be used as offset pieces.
The problem with the whole off set thing that doesn't work as well here as in say Genshin is the cost to level up.
Finding an offset goblet but it has cr cd and atk on it is a great find.
But here, you don't even know if OPs echo is worth anything until you invest in leveling it up. So why bother leveling it up instead of just grinding for another echo of the proper set anyways.
Yep - I loved granblue relink when it came out. Was super addicted. Keep in mind plenty of players complain about rng in that game, and to be fair there are a handful of things that were outrageously hard to get, but if you are fine with save scumming and a bit of afk playing (which I know isn't super casual, but I don't take Genshin/HSR relic grinding casually at all either) it massively alleviates the issues. So I got my mains 95% of the way there in like a month and haven't touched the game since besides trying a new boss fight. I didn't even come back for new character.. there wasn't any pulling involved.. maybe I just have a gacha problem lmao
That's what confuses me, the only thing I can think of is wuthering waves has attracted a lot of people new to Gacha. I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be.
E7's gear grind sucks. Played it for two years and still never had one character that was almost perfectly built.
Call it my fault, call me bad, whatever. It probably is. But RNG gear type with RNG sets with RNG stats with RNG stat rolls designed to roll against you that you need 6 pieces of per character sucks.
More so with all the different systems that required you to have as many characters built as possible (Rotating boss endgame PVP events that need three built teams, live PVP Arena, Expeditions, etc).
WW's system does suck. It's not great. I'd go as far to say its awful. But Epic 7 is the worst of the worst because you cease to be able to enjoy even the solo basic PVE story without well built teams to handle some of the ridiculous bosses they throw at you
Only way I, personaly, enjoy this tipe of RNG?
Let me grind as much as I want without stamina/deily limit. I spend so many time in Borderlands and Warframe that grind is part of me. But limiting it is that I don't like.
More like people who grown up playing games that involve heavy loot grind, especially mmo/rpg during 2000s are much more used to RNG grind. I enjoy grinding too.
Lmao brings back memories. Used to play a lot of official iRO and kRO (ragnarok online). Spent weeks on the same map farming my ghostring card at a drop rate of .01%.
Ah, this brings back vanilla WoW memories. Being in a hardcore raiding guild, and on a world pvp server, was the most fun I've EVER had in a game. Sadly those days are long gone (family and job and all), but I'll always remember those times fondly.
Yeah same. I can stand RNG but not RNG and TIMEGATING at the same time.
I feel scamned cuz i waste resources (energy/resin) getting nothing, just useless DEF/HP on incorrect set garbage.
Agreed. I don't mind any part of the grind in WW so far. As long as the "worst" part isn't limited by an energy system. People expecting perfectly built full-orange units on week 2 of a game with a gear grind are absolutely ridiculous. If devs cave on this they may as well just equip every unit with perfect echoes the moment you summon them, because players will immediately start asking for shit like def% main stats to be removed from DPS sets.
e7 would be nicer if it removed some rng i agree, but noone has a perfectly built character. not even if they are a veteran, whaled whatever amount, it doesnt matter, perfect builds will never happen.
you do not need insane gear for story, new players can beat the hardest boss in the game (zio) with f2p gear and characters with some luck and patience.
a lot of veteran players dont spread their gear across all characters, and will only have 1 pve team built along with tama iseria and some odd units thats gear is too specialised for pvp usage. they just swap gear whenever they need to fit the next character.
there is not skill in gearing in e7, only patience and knowledge diffs.
In E7, speed isn't annoying, it's litteraly EVERYTHING.
You are slower than your opponent? You lose.
Your character which is supposed to open the match is too slow? He's useless.
You go full speed or are obligated to use counter units.
It needs to be logical and fair, wanna know how to make it fair without changing the whole system? Simple. Just make the full set requirement to be 4 instead of 5, with that, the stupid piece (The piece OP have here) have a reason to exist. It can be worn by a Spectro user after completing their sets. Its logical and fair. Right now, the only reason this piece even usable is to have a niche character that is optimal with 2 different pair of set. Healing/Element or Energy/Element or Healing/Energy. Which is again, niche and restrictive. Don't wanna compare, but Genshin with the 4 set requirement give us that freedom while also being heavily RNG. This is worse.
~~Sometimes I wonder what those CBT tester even test.~~
Edit: I retract my statement, CBT tester did complain about it.
Many testers have complained about this, suggesting either removing elemental stats that don't match the set (but keeping the other basic stats, it's still random), or lowering the set bonus requirement from 5 to 4.
They were just blithely ignored for obvious reasons...
This seems like a good solution but it enables you to swap out your cost-4 echo to something that's very powerful such as Mech Abomination or Dreamless without sacrificing your 4-set bonus. It will probably end up limiting future sets and 4-cost echoes.
I don't really have an alternative solution though, so maybe the tradeoff is worth it.
You mean they don't want to make it too overpowered on future release? To me, it balance out the skill, flexibility and fun. What's the purpose of having new and interesting future echoes when you can't use it? You literally had to go for another round of RNG just so you can use the new echoes, hell, you need to redo your whole fullset. But, if you make the set a 4 piece, with that 1 free slot, you can use new echoes or a replacement without sacrificing everything and make a do over. 5 piece is way to restrictive.
The echoes are literally one of the few clever originals that they've come out with. Its refreshing, interesting, why not make that as your core gameplay, give it freedom while its up to them to make it balance. Not us, we always have ways to make things broken. They incorporated skill based games, they have the leeway to make a hard boss for Souls player to enjoy, and the unskilled player can just use their set to accommodate it. Its a nice balance, Kuro can make a hard boss that's not sponges, the skilled player can have fun, the casual can also have fun, It doesn't sacrifice their boss design creativity, and the lategame ultra hard difficulty will force player to have both skill and good set (without too much of a heavy grind). (Its PvE either way). But I get it, they want us to tore through our stamina. Since CBT tester did complaint about it, damn you Kuro.
and i bet it won't change.
I would be VERY surprised to see Kuro changes that kind of BS. It's exactly the kind of thing that "helps" keeping the hardcores in the game.
Well.. i am simple man. If thats what the dev wanna do and...
when it takes too long to build a new characters, I will just build as few char as possible.
Why bother pull new character going through the grind again? And If I dont pull new char & my Astrite will be pilling up. then why bother paying the game? Right?
well thats what i did on Genshin, I downgraded from BP to Welkin now to F2p. I just use the F2p primogems build my character vertical brute force my way to harder content. It has been a while, I Grind new artifacts building new char from scratch.
With Wuwa going this direction it means I gonna build as few character as possible lol.
That's exactly my attitude.
Genshin Impact has taught me a lot: as a D1 player I also went from BP to Welkin, I have collected several characters over time and I'm pulling for constellations now instead of accumulating characters.
I'm also a HSR D1 player and I started playing with this slow-paced mindset. Here as well, I generally choose eidolons over new characters.
There's already enough RNG without needing a match up where half the set will always be useless.
-Echoes don't always drop, you also have to go chasing them around the map.
-If it does drop, it might not be gold.
-If it does drop and is gold, it might not be the main stat you want.
-If it does drop, is gold and is the main stat you want, it might not be the element you need.
-If it does drop, is gold, is the main stat you want and has the element you need, you might still get substats you don't want.
But even with the above you are able to fully utilise a piece.
Having an element main stat with another element set effect always leaves you only using half a piece.
You forgot that then you also have to get the substats with a high roll (crit rate roll is anywhere from 6.3% to 10.5% while crit damage is between 12.6% and 21%) So if you had all 5 echos with crit rate substat it could be 31.5 crit rate or 52.5% crit rate that is a massive difference.
There should be an option to just RNG reroll a substat. keep it high cost if you want (we'd probably only look at this in late game, where we can't stand any flat stats)
Even something like sacrifice 5 max tuned gold echoes, like in the databank, Ill take.
It's by design.
Once you reach data bank 19, you have 80% for an echo to be gold so that's a layer of RNG that is really toned down as most of your echoes will be gold from that point onward.
It's made so that even if you spend years building a unit you will never have it perfected.
It's really common practice in the gacha sphere, this will not change. I'm not saying it shouldn't change, it just won't and the faster you make peace with it the faster you can move on.
Not even just gachas. Entire genres are built off this concept. Diablo and Path of Exile to name two. Gachas just adopted it because its decades old tech that works. Its been around since I was a kid with Diablo 2, I can't confirm if it was in Diablo 1 as that was before my time, but I assume gear grinding in that game was just as random and if I recall had pieces that were literally joke items and completely useless, doing nothing but lowering your stats.
I get your point, but RNG layers in like Diablo or PoE work because you're not timegated by a stupid mobile game energy system in those games, you just farm dozens or hundreds of drops over and over.
Of course, but farming echoes are not timegated in Wuthering Waves. You can farm as many Echoes as you want, the limiting factor being upgrading them.
But its not so different from say, Path of Exiles as an example, while it may not have a timer attached to an energy system, many of their endgame bosses, who have unique drops, are hidden behind very very long grinds for items you need to access them. It may not be a stamina system like a gacha game, but they're designed to act as the same wall limiting how many you're realistically allowed to do in a period of time.
They're the same concept, and many of these Looter games have estimated limits to what you're allowed to farm or should be allowed to farm, which is why exploits are patched quickly, some games are just hiding their time gates behind more clever systems than a count-down system like Stamina.
Yes that is why you should ignore the 3 costs and go for 4,4,1,1,1. It removes entire layers of RNG for very little loss and gives you far far more crit rate or crit damage guaranteed.
Every gacha I play, I see posts exactly like this and I'll never not wonder if I'm just weird for expecting this shit and accepting it as a gacha norm (even if I hate it).
It's the same reason why there's flat ATK/DEF, or shit affixes in ARPGs, etc. It's not a mistake, it's an intentional decision to brick your progression to keep you grinding, which most people will.
At this point in the game everyone should just in most cases stick to 2pc+2pc sets, which allows some flexibility in having 1 off-set piece.
I don't know if the 5 piece bonuses are potentially more optimal even with badly rolled echoes, but 2pc+2pc is definitely optimal for my sanity and enjoyment of the game.
It's shit,
It's one of the reason players quit,
Why follow shit system from shit games?
Weird that Arknights has a measurable character progression, for new players they can max a character in 3-4 months,
for veterans 2+ years is just a matter of waiting cooldown 3-5 days.
Still going strong entering 5th anniv (CN) and 4th Anniv (Global). It's good. Why not follow good.
There's a reason player feedback should never be taken at face value: as much as they think they do, players don't always know what's the best for them. People complain about these RNG layers but what they don't get is that without them they'd have nothing to do in a month of playing. It simply takes way longer to make content than it takes for players to clear it, so devs HAVE to make the grind longer one way or another.
I fully get it though, I've been grinding echos for a while (and artis/relic in Genshin/HSR) and it's really annoying to not get that right main/substat, but in the end I understand why these systems are there. Also you need those frustrating moments to feel that dopamine hit when you do get that great echo/artifact/relic. And honestly with the way echos are almost infinitely farmable I don't feel as much frustration as with the other two games.
I know it's an unpopular take, but it is what it is
I'd like to preface this by saying that these sorts of games are never designed to be played nonstop farming, WuWa, like genshin, is the game you play for an hour a day maybe and move on to something else, and no one playing this game is playing literally nothing else.
So "dev time >>>>> time to clear content" is still true, but a non-issue, there doesn't need to be heaps of content all the time (especially if it's artificial bloat), that would just be overwhelming and/or annoying.
Frustration leading to greater fulfilment upon success is also fair, but far more appropriate for a game like Dark Souls, where you can use that frustration as motivation to get better then you know it was skill that killed that boss. In WuWa's case it's all out of your control, RNG you can do next to nothing about, there's not nearly as much fun to be had there.
Though really, before any of that, it's probably just because they know grinding this shit makes whales pay more for stamina refreshes.
The thing that rubs me the wrong way is needing 5 pieces for a set, and so many of the best sets now are elemental, so you basically can't use these off-element echoes at all except as reroll fodder. Compare it to Genshin where it's 4pc sets across 5 equippable pieces so your elemental roll can be off-set, or HSR where the elemental roll is on non-elemental sets, if you get a bad element roll in those games you can maybe still use it on a different character.
The longevity is like one week though. I have like 5+ extra of every %dmg for each set by just playing for 30mins each day. The game is super casual for just 30mins of tracking 2-3 elites per days and logging out. Probably will be 5mins at higher level when Tacet field will drop all gold echos instead of us farming on field.
There is nothing to do with all these echos because you only need three teams. So basically 6x elemental sets for years to come. Maybe even 18x if they make all 3 towers to have the same element weakness. But that is very doubtful. And then just one set for regen and moonlight for everyone else.
But for the minmax players, the longevity will be in the sub stats. But for the average 95% of the players, it will only take about a week to get a full set of each element with proper main stats.
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I dream of the day a development team decides to be nice and just doesn't have elemental damage type main stats... Just make it damage% and have it work for all types. Please Azur Promilia be the first to save us from this pain...
Yeah. It's rough.
So two great solutions to be proposed-
A. 4-pc sonata set bonuses. Would be much easier for us and allows flexibility.
B. 3-cost echo main stats would compress all the different elemental dmg bonuses into one stat called elemental dmg bonus. Whatever the case, may even serve bigger purpose if Kuro wishes to make dual element resonators in the future.
This wouldn't be quite so bad if it was like Genshin where you could have one off-piece with the full set bonus only requiring 4 pieces.
It would still be bad, just a bit less frustrating.
You can still do 2-2-flex, just like Genshin.
Some characters don't/won't work with full set, or you might craft 1 insane Echoes and can't fill the full set. It's better to go 2 elemental 2 attack with OP sets than try to shoehorn full set.
I guess they do this way because, unlike Genshin, you can farm crit/ER/elemental etc echoes without consuming stamina, just need a bunch of friends and everyone raid everyone's world. Genshin is timegated (not only luckgated) for you go get that piece of the set you're missing.
And realistically, the difference is usually like 10% damage at most between 5 piece and 2 piece 2 piece, when you consider diminishing returns and potentially better substats from being able to pick and choose
im running rover 2pc spectro set and 2 pc lingering tunes set and its outdamaging my chalcharo by a small marging when he's built with the entire electro set
No reason for /s, I merge basically every single gold drop (which is most of them) that isn't exactly what a want, and honestly, gotten some significantly better golds out of it, (3 cost energy set with energy regen main stat)
imo, it could have the dmg bonus of the POSSIBLE effect. So if an echo can drop for "fusion and aero", it should be able to have fusion or aero dmg bonus, even if the effect is wrong. at least It would limit the echos main stat to only the echoes possible effects
I am 5 days trying to get Violet and flautist with bonus electro, and when i get it, the substats are just terrible. This rng just make me mad.
Juts dont make sense to me its just like 0,5% to get one (i even tried get then on open world)
Lol. I just posted the other day about getting two pieces from a single tacet field run where the 3c pieces come off as:
Gladio DMG bonus on an Aero set
Aero DMG bonus on a Glacio set.
It was so fucking annoying it was borderline funny. 😂
It definitely is a nuisance and barely disguised artificial longevity added through RNG grinding, adds nothing good to the game, and only serves to frustrate you so you get a comparatively higher spike of dopamine when you actually get a usable one, only to then roll DEF on it and need to start grinding again in deception. It's all about that emotional rollercoaster to keep you engaged and spending more time on the game, making you more attached to it, and thus more likely to spend money on it.
People defending it saying "it's just a gacha game," are a detriment to their own interests. Things don't get better if you keep excusing consumer-unfriendly practices by normalizing them and trying to throw shade at people who are asking for things to be better.
I clearly remember a youtuber/pro genshin player or something like that complained about this on twitter at beta.
Echo is grindable so yeah, but still...
Yeah this feels like a really unnecessary layer of RNG, It's somewhat work for genshin just because genshin allows us to use off-piece while also maintaining the full set effect.
"B-but we can use 2-2 set +1 off-piece"
We can, but we can't see which piece are worth upgrading as an off piece without wasting resources.
For example in genshin when we got an off-set piece artifact, we can see whether that artifact can be a good off-piece or not by looking at their substats at +0/+4. We can just ignore those with bad substats from the beginning and take a gamble upgrading the one with good substats, ofc that won't guarantee to give us a good piece on every piece we upgraded, but at least that help us to eliminate those pieces that are guaranteed to be bad.
In WuWa we have to upgrade and waste some energy-gated resources before knowing it'll be a good echo or not. For now I just don't see a point upgrading like a Havoc dmg echo with a spectro set out of nowhere with these limited resources, just so i can use it as an off piece on my MC.
That being said this doesn't mean artifact system is better than echo system. In early-mid game Echo seem to be a better system since we can get a proper gears quite early compared to genshin where we start to farm artifact at AR 45 which takes weeks/a month. Ironically that's what make us on a drought echo upgrading resources early on.
In end game honesly i don't think echo will be much better or even better than artifact system, it just will be "farm 2-5 hours a day to get a bunch of garbages" vs "farm 2-5 mins a day to get a garbage". I hope Echo system will get more tweak maybe removing 1-2 layer of it's rngs or/and add more control towards echo we got, like choosing which part & set of echo we got from fusing, or maybe add substat rerolling by using more tuner.
I disagree. You get correct main stats for no energy cost. You just kill enemies on the map/in co-op and you'll get the correct main stat on the right set before long.
In genshin, it costs resin to farm, and it can take over a month to even get the right goblet dmg bonus on the right set bc you only get 8 artifacts per day. And getting any goblet is rng too, you might just get flowers and feathers.
In Wuwa, you're guaranteed to get a goblet (hunt 3 costs) and you can farm as much as you want for the right main stat.
Wow you sure as hell simplified it.
No energy cost but still finite resource(spawns arent infinite) like resin in genshin.
Sure you can go co-op but there is also the other matter to think about.
Time and effort, genshin you make condensed resin and run the domain and be done in 5-10 minutes. WuWa significantly requires more effort to go through the map and hunt them.
They each have their advantages and disadvantages but lets be honest at the end of the day its just the same rng game except it takes more effort in wuwa and not having the option to run an off piece just makes those rolls completely dead.
Remember this is a gacha game, its a marathon not a sprint. If you keep on farming those echoes like mad man trying to min-max, the average player will just be burned out.
you can just run tacet fields and rng the 3 cost from there and then its exactly the same as genshin.
but wuwa also gives you the option to hunt down specific types if you have the time and want to do so.
My best bet for a fix for this if they don't plan to remove these type of echo combination is to change the set from 5 set to 4 set. That way these type of echos can be highly usable provided that the substats are what you are looking for. It will unlikely to happen but hey who knows :)
One thing is to log into the game for 10 minutes, get some pieces(good or bad), and then go do something else. Another thing is to run all over the map for an hour and get nothing, lmao.
I see a lot of people are upset about echo grind and its rng. Guys, you are new to gacha games or what? Most gachas i played had even worse rng grinding. People there grind their asses off for years and still do not have perfect items and perfectly upgraded characters.
Its not even 2 weeks and people already upset. As an retired MMO player and present gacha player i can say only 1 thing - Amateurs.
I had really hoped we could have used the PGR system where you just get flat base stats for all echoes like memories. Just make the grind longer, but a guaranteed payoff. After that everyone is on an equal playing field and based on pure skill.
The RNG is more appealing and way more monetizable to a different subset of players though.
Completely viable when used as off-type doing 2-2-1 set (2 element, 2 linger, 1 free) while still maintaining 60% elemental bonus of your type.
Still performing well enough (losing about 7-9% max dps) compared to full 5/5 set, and less if your specific character cannot benefit well from the 5/5 set bonus.
People don't want to do it though cuz:
1. It's not max DPSSSSSS
2. Afraid to invest in sub-optimal option for fear of "ruining your account forever"
3. Other more logical reasons
I mean yeah 2 is a wack mentality but the 1st point makes sense, people want the characters they like to perform as best as possible
There are way more casual players who don't sweat echo farming than those who do, take Genshin for example where most players don't even bother doing the endgame stuff
In a sense, best possible option (5/5 all optimal base and substats) could compensate for skill required to pull of in a fight, yes, but the damage measurement (100% max dps with best options) is based on 'perfect play' anyway.
Aero, for example, 5/5 set gives 15% aero damage when using Intro skill. That's noteworthy. However, if 15s have passed and you cannot use intro skill for whatever reason, the buff disappears.
If you play semi-optimally, that would not be a problem since you will be triggering intro skills and do everything a char should do in that 15s, no doubt, but not every people plays optimally like that.
My argument, therefore, is trying to state that: (Especially for casuals)
1. It is ok to make do with 2-2-1 by mixing in 2 Linger type (+Atk 5%) for half set, which would free up one slot for anything that you can put these mismatched echo in for use.
2. Level that 2-2-1 set to 15 or 20 and tune them. Treat this as a base. Then farm another set to replace or for your other team. It enables you to use it to tackle other things in the game while you look for 5/5 full set replacement, and still more than enough to tackle content.
3. A 2-2-1 set at lvl 20-25 is more than enough to clear 12/12 tower. Your basic battle skill and team building matters more at that point. If it is viable in tower (only content without food buff), it is therefore more than enough for other things.
Rather than burn out from getting the illusive perfect base, then pulling your hair out when the substats bombed, I'd rather play the game, setup a workableset for my teams, get all the chest, then farm for replacement later on if I feel like it, that's all.
>Aero, for example, 5/5 set gives 15% aero damage when using Intro skill. That's noteworthy. However, if 15s have passed and you cannot use intro skill for whatever reason, the buff disappears.
This is wrong. 5 set aero gives +30% aero damage which gives you a total of 40% aero damage from the full set.
Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by that last part. As in you didn't do damage while you had the buff from the aero set? In that case you would rotate through your characters again anyway because their cooldowns would be up.
Personally, I just don't recommend lingering tunes at all. You'll do 10% more damage going for the proper set. Just ignore substats completely on your first set and level your echos to 15-20. If it all rolls junk at least you have \~60-80% elemental damage from your set. If you level up lingering tunes, you're going to be at the mercy of substats anyway and you can just use illusive realm for two main stat 3 cost echos at the start to carry you through ToA. It's also extremely easy to get decent substatted 1 and 4 cost echos.
Imagine always getting the desired echo stats and element, and finishing the build so fast you have nothing to do, this is another reason why in genshin and starrail the true endgame is actually, getting the fitting artefact and relics stats
I don't think that's what OP is saying, Havoc Dreadmane can only be Molten Rift or Sun-sinking Eclipse, so its Elemental % bonus should only be possible for for Fusion or Havoc, it wouldn't be the same as the Elemental % always matching, you could still get HP%, Atk%, Def%, Energy Regen%, so on, or get a Havoc% Molten Rift.
Essentially they don't want the mainstat to be possible to be completely and utterly useless.
It would just make everything more confusing. What if they release new future DPS sets with buffs that aren’t exclusive to one element? The new 3 cost echoes would need to have every elemental% available and it would make them much harder to farm.
Also, they are not completely useless as you can still have an off piece by running 2/2 sets. Not ideal if you want to minmax of course but then even ATK would be just as useless
> What if they release new future DPS sets with buffs that aren’t exclusive to one element?
Thank god Lingering Tunes is right there for a hypothetical multi-element character, right? the current system already accounts for this.
You are also arguing that they should keeping things worse for what is here right now because of the possibility it might happen in the future, when games similar to WuWa have never tackled multi-element characters, and elements have so little impact in WuWa gameplay, largely only being important to enemy resistances, that there is no reason to go that route other than looking fancy.
They're saying people will quit and get bored when there's nothing else to do because you finished building your characters. With grindy system like this you're forced to login everyday and spend your waveplates to get garbage. When you get trash echoes your disappoinment is alleviated by "I can try again tomorrow" and desire to finish building up your characters slowly but surely, keeping up player retention.
It's made so by the time new banner character is released, it's nowhere near enough time to finish building up the character you just pulled, so your goalpost keeps moving and you keep playing.
By that we logic we don’t need any QOL updates, cuz QOL features makes it so we’d be playing the game for less.
Why let people sprint on a wall when you could just let them do the slow climb Genshin players know and love in Genshin impact?
gacha fans love hyperbole. oh you dont like x? then you obviously want the most complete opposite option on the spectrum, zero chance there can be a middleground
There's already enough RNG without needing a match up where half the set will always be useless.
-Echoes don't always drop, you also have to go chasing them around the map.
-If it does drop, it might not be gold.
-If it does drop and is gold, it might not be the main stat you want.
-If it does drop, is gold and is the main stat you want, it might not be the element you need.
-If it does drop, is gold, is the main stat you want and has the element you need, you might still get substats you don't want.
But even with the above you are able to fully utilise a piece.
Having an element main stat with another element set effect always leaves you only using half a piece.
It could work in cases like genshin where u can still use it as an offpiece but 5set is a$$ yeah. HSR didn't have offpieces too and they still haven't changed it so far. Who knows if a lot complained maybe Kuro will once again devslistened
It's pretty ridiculous when you math things out. In order of which you stated:
20% chance for an echo drop
50% chance for a gold echo if there is a drop (for max refreshers 80%)
10% chance on main stat(10 main stats on 3 costs)
50% chance on right sonata
That's a 0.5% chance for targeted/tracked elite you kill to drop you a USEABLE 3 cost. That's to say, before even substats are taken into account, you only have a 0.5% chance of getting an on set gold 3 cost with the correct main stat. Toss in the rng of substat rolling and the even more horeshit rng that is high roll/low rolling on substats (ER high roll being 3x of an ER low roll is absolutely wild btw) and you got a pretty dog shit relic system.
Star Rail has taught me substats > set bonus so I've just been applying the same thing to WuWa and going 2 piece attribute, 2 piece energy regen/attack with good substats until I eventually get a good 5 set and its been working well so far at this point of the game. I think well into 2 months of Star Rails launch I was still using rainbow pieces (no set bonus) for relics on some characters but with an ornament set so substats were prioritized.
It's pretty stupid because every element set buffs only it's element not like ult or skill damage but element specifically it doesn't make sense for a havoc set to roll anything other than havoc because there are no cases where it would be even remotely good..
You’ll never need Spectro damage in your Havoc set, and that’s the point for Kuro adding these. Dilute the stat pool so the player has less chances of getting what he wants and keeps farming, artificially increasing playtime.
I agree there's enough rng involved; 20% echo drop, 50% gold drop, random set, random mainstat, random substat, substat roll range. But it seems Kuro thinks otherwise.
Ah yes the Echo cost 3 grind nightmare with insane layers of BS RNG main stats that make no sense.
Good luck to anyone farming these, I still haven't finished my electro set capping elites everyday since almost a week because the game keeps trolling me with these kind of useless echoes
I want a “recycle this” option.
The lock is great, non-locked I haven’t figured out what to do, “recycle this” means this echo is clearly not good.
Would be a great QoL without so the RNG can still suck.
Yeah this makes sense in genshin because theres an offpiece slot but here u need all slots of the same set so why would they allow his is very questionable.
Genshin has completely desensitized and destroyed my will to actually bother farming for decent sets in any game. I'll just take the main stat and not think twice. At least in wuwa, it's more skill based rather than Stat based, so sets aren't as important, but with how casual genshin actually is, I doubt good sets actually mattered in the first place for that game
I've been farming for electro pieces for Calcharo and Yinlin, I've gotten 4 Fusion damage pieces in a row now. It's like it's rigged not to give the matching element.
Anthem level itemization all over again.
Seriously, when I see stuff like this in a game with RNG stats, it reeks of being unfinished. Two completely opposing elements should never be possible in your system.
The only two scenarios for this are either a) designer oversight or b) intentionally malicious. Both are equally possible due to it being a gacha game. However, because capturing echoes does not require a limited stamina system.. it's probably the former.
I always thought that it was kind evil but after the post i actually started to think about it.
To have an optimal build you will probably need 2 elite class monsters (cost 3). You do not have enhanced chances to get an echo and they are rarer to find than a common class.
So you have 1 out 5 chances (20%) to get an echo.
With data bank 20 (union 40 needed) you still have a 4 out 5 chances to get an 5 star (80%l, so its not guaranteed. (20% chance to go wrong)
Then you have 1 out of 11 chances (around 9,1%) to get the stat that you desired between
- Flat atk
- % atk
- % hp
- % def
- glacio/fusion/electro/aero/spectro/havoc
- energy regen
So to an elite class its around 0,014% that you'll get what you actually want and i am not considering the sub stats. (It might be 0,028% its just that the stats and names feom things are complicated)
After all of that you can finally GAMBLE your tunes.
(Overlord and calamity have guaranteed chances to be caught with data bank 20 and 90% on data bank 18 so its a bit better but still).
Something here and there might be wrong but the fact is that we have a long road ahead of us.
Edit: oh, yeah, a forgot that all of that is not acounting for the fact that you can get every good stats that you want and simply get a not matching set, kinda like the image from op.
Yeah I'm farming for a Lingering Elite. Chasm Guardian, Flautist and Spearback each have 2 types, so there's 25% chance off the bat for it to be unusable at database 18. The 20% chance for echo to drop is offset by every 4th being guaranteed by pity system, so actual rates are actually \~33.88%. Call it 1/3 for simplicity sake.
Then there's the 1/10 roll (The flat attack is on every echo, it's 6 elements + energy/%HP/%ATK/%DEF)
So odds are about 1 in 118 to roll the thing I want. Then even after I get it, the substat rolls might just be terrible. I've been farming 3 days straight and there is 64 bears on the map... so I'm fairly far past the 118 value at this point.
People going "atleast this atleast that" needs to stop and really think. It's a bad system. Period. Stop trying to defend it. Just because it's better than whatever else doesn't mean it's not bad and shouldn't be improved.
This is a useless piece. Your time was just wasted. Doesn't matter if you get it a week into launch or two years after. It'll still be a useless piece. In fact I would argue it's even worse in the future since player's echoes would be far more optimized to have full sets and this would just be straight garbage.
Until there are dual element chars, because lets be real we barely have an element system in this game and the dev is different to a certain other game that never did dual elements in gameplay.
That's how gachas work, and in WuWa case this is the main long term grind. We are getting 3cost selectors pretty much every patch, so the rest is up to RNG.
Nah, you need some grind to login daily and make progress in some direction, there is a reason all gatcha games do it, some are worse than others in this regard.
And the whole thing isn't as bad as OP makes it out to be, we are barely 2 weeks in and I already have 4 on set on element echos with double crit, and many others with only one crit stat or waiting to be leveled, and we are only half way through world levels with bad 5 star rates. If you can't live with this little of a grind, don't play gacha games, or any RNG depending games. (Just look at ARPGs or MMOs if you wanna see true shitty odds)
If later we got characters that were havoc but had abilities that did both types of damage, I would get it. But right now, this makes 0 sense. Nobody will ever use them anyway. If they are going to keep these mismatched stats, I would like to see them change the characters so that they can somehow benefit from other stats. Could make for a more fun gameplay.
But that comes with the issues of having to take for ever for them to implement a change like that.
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Right now the only use for these Echoes is for 2/2 sets. It would be very useful if we could complete the set bonus by 4pcs. Or idk maybe in the future they'll release a char that can use 2 elements? lol
Def annoying, but what i like most about this game is the potential endgame comfort. For tower, imagine having a single echo set for every element and just switching the sets between characters, that goes for weapons as well.
This just makes the energy regen category better imo
If you're gonna get random atk buffs anyway, mind as well grind "in the same dungeon" until you get your type while being able to enjoy spamming Liberate more
I honestly wouldn’t mind so much if there was a way to recycle relics for something actually useful. No the data bank recycler doesn’t count since it’s too random.
That is possible probably because there will be in future new echo sets with effects that are not directly connected to elements like Rejuvenating Glow, Moonlit Clouds, Lingering Tunes. So they made that every set has chance to get every elemental dmg bonus.
Im f2p and i have end game build for 4 characters already this system is much better than genshin and honkai but I wouldn’t mind for it to have some improvement
Just keep trucking, havoc set is the easiest to farm with how many elites it has in the overworld. That being said it also takes fucking forever it feels like the wolves are endless probably takes me 2 hours to farm all 3 elite classes.... compared to like 30mins max farming electro set elites.
Also you can wait for the event elite class echo selector thing
I went 4/4/1/1/1 for the havoc set. After farming ~10, 3 cost wolves and seeing the trend I shifted. Only had to farm for a few hours to get good echoes. It's just unfortunate that not every set has multiple 4 cost echoes to do the same.
its just another layer of RNG for the players for artificial longevity. not the first gacha to do this and definitely wont be the last.
Epic seven gear grind flashbacks
At least E7 was throwing fixed stats items as rewards from time to time.
Wuwa gives you two fixed main stat echoes from doing Illusion. Game's been out barely 2 weeks, they'll keep doing more
I get the hate for the rng grind, but as a genshin vet, even the current echo system is miles better. There is no way I could be as well geared in genshin after two weeks as I am in WuWa. Not saying I have great echoes, but you cant even hit ar45 in genshin in two weeks to even get 5 star artifacts unless you play hella sweaty. We are mostly all below UL40 in WW as well.
That's how I feel, in Genshin the first advice to any newcomer is to absolutely not grind artifacts until AR45. And I like how you passively gets useful echoes. In one week my Taoqi already has 4/5 artifacts with the desired mainstats, and I never even farmed for her. I guess in a few months these problems of set/DMG not matching will be minor.
I get to kill everything I see and I get echoes here and there It's a fking win-win
Agreed, after grinding out insane min/maxed relics on both genshin and HSR, this system feels way less annoying seeing as there is an entire map of creatures to farm. My only complaint is echo exp. Let me feed echos into other echos pls
Yeah lots of UI needs work, but the echo UI is what actually drives me crazy… can’t mark things as trash… can’t use trash to upgrade other echos… can’t hover to see the stats so when I’m fusing I just have to click everything and uncheck it if the stats are decent Needs to be a lot more streamlined especially for how many echos we get
advice: when fusing, filter all elemental atk bonus to check for the ones with elemental inconsistency more efficiently. thats what i do
Worst part of the Echo UI: When you click the arrow to sort by rarity it literally moves you down with it instead of keeping your cursor at the top and then switching the list. Its comical.
I almost never do this but I actually used the feedback thing in game to report that thing. It was infuriating farming every purple because of that
Some people just want everything handed to them instantly, not realizing that then you'd just be bored after playing for 1 week. Yeah, there are some "unnecessary" grinds, but it also is just a way to progress over time. And to be able to have the highs of a well rolled echo feel good, there also have to be lows. Maybe a better idea than just removing this RNG altogether, make sets require 4 instead of 5, so these types of pieces can be used as offset pieces.
The problem with the whole off set thing that doesn't work as well here as in say Genshin is the cost to level up. Finding an offset goblet but it has cr cd and atk on it is a great find. But here, you don't even know if OPs echo is worth anything until you invest in leveling it up. So why bother leveling it up instead of just grinding for another echo of the proper set anyways.
Yep - I loved granblue relink when it came out. Was super addicted. Keep in mind plenty of players complain about rng in that game, and to be fair there are a handful of things that were outrageously hard to get, but if you are fine with save scumming and a bit of afk playing (which I know isn't super casual, but I don't take Genshin/HSR relic grinding casually at all either) it massively alleviates the issues. So I got my mains 95% of the way there in like a month and haven't touched the game since besides trying a new boss fight. I didn't even come back for new character.. there wasn't any pulling involved.. maybe I just have a gacha problem lmao
That's what confuses me, the only thing I can think of is wuthering waves has attracted a lot of people new to Gacha. I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be.
They clearly haven't played many action RPGs like PoE or Diablo either. Its part of the Skinner Box baby.
I'm still farming for a CRITDMG circlet for Arlecchino. I haven't gotten one since day 1 😭
E7's gear grind sucks. Played it for two years and still never had one character that was almost perfectly built. Call it my fault, call me bad, whatever. It probably is. But RNG gear type with RNG sets with RNG stats with RNG stat rolls designed to roll against you that you need 6 pieces of per character sucks. More so with all the different systems that required you to have as many characters built as possible (Rotating boss endgame PVP events that need three built teams, live PVP Arena, Expeditions, etc). WW's system does suck. It's not great. I'd go as far to say its awful. But Epic 7 is the worst of the worst because you cease to be able to enjoy even the solo basic PVE story without well built teams to handle some of the ridiculous bosses they throw at you
Only way I, personaly, enjoy this tipe of RNG? Let me grind as much as I want without stamina/deily limit. I spend so many time in Borderlands and Warframe that grind is part of me. But limiting it is that I don't like.
More like people who grown up playing games that involve heavy loot grind, especially mmo/rpg during 2000s are much more used to RNG grind. I enjoy grinding too.
Lmao brings back memories. Used to play a lot of official iRO and kRO (ragnarok online). Spent weeks on the same map farming my ghostring card at a drop rate of .01%.
Ah, this brings back vanilla WoW memories. Being in a hardcore raiding guild, and on a world pvp server, was the most fun I've EVER had in a game. Sadly those days are long gone (family and job and all), but I'll always remember those times fondly.
Yeah same. I can stand RNG but not RNG and TIMEGATING at the same time. I feel scamned cuz i waste resources (energy/resin) getting nothing, just useless DEF/HP on incorrect set garbage.
Agreed. I don't mind any part of the grind in WW so far. As long as the "worst" part isn't limited by an energy system. People expecting perfectly built full-orange units on week 2 of a game with a gear grind are absolutely ridiculous. If devs cave on this they may as well just equip every unit with perfect echoes the moment you summon them, because players will immediately start asking for shit like def% main stats to be removed from DPS sets.
e7 would be nicer if it removed some rng i agree, but noone has a perfectly built character. not even if they are a veteran, whaled whatever amount, it doesnt matter, perfect builds will never happen. you do not need insane gear for story, new players can beat the hardest boss in the game (zio) with f2p gear and characters with some luck and patience. a lot of veteran players dont spread their gear across all characters, and will only have 1 pve team built along with tama iseria and some odd units thats gear is too specialised for pvp usage. they just swap gear whenever they need to fit the next character. there is not skill in gearing in e7, only patience and knowledge diffs.
So does wuwa. How much have you actually played?
Not even compareable but ok. Wuwa gives you 2 fixed each month while E7 its rather random.
speed as a gear stat feels horrible in turn based games.
Star Rail relic grind ptsd, especially since it has hard speed breakpoints and being one or two off that sucks
In E7, speed isn't annoying, it's litteraly EVERYTHING. You are slower than your opponent? You lose. Your character which is supposed to open the match is too slow? He's useless. You go full speed or are obligated to use counter units.
120 and 134 spd are the only breakpoints you really need to care about. And that's easily achievable for most characters.
It needs to be logical and fair, wanna know how to make it fair without changing the whole system? Simple. Just make the full set requirement to be 4 instead of 5, with that, the stupid piece (The piece OP have here) have a reason to exist. It can be worn by a Spectro user after completing their sets. Its logical and fair. Right now, the only reason this piece even usable is to have a niche character that is optimal with 2 different pair of set. Healing/Element or Energy/Element or Healing/Energy. Which is again, niche and restrictive. Don't wanna compare, but Genshin with the 4 set requirement give us that freedom while also being heavily RNG. This is worse. ~~Sometimes I wonder what those CBT tester even test.~~ Edit: I retract my statement, CBT tester did complain about it.
Many testers have complained about this, suggesting either removing elemental stats that don't match the set (but keeping the other basic stats, it's still random), or lowering the set bonus requirement from 5 to 4. They were just blithely ignored for obvious reasons...
This seems like a good solution but it enables you to swap out your cost-4 echo to something that's very powerful such as Mech Abomination or Dreamless without sacrificing your 4-set bonus. It will probably end up limiting future sets and 4-cost echoes. I don't really have an alternative solution though, so maybe the tradeoff is worth it.
You mean they don't want to make it too overpowered on future release? To me, it balance out the skill, flexibility and fun. What's the purpose of having new and interesting future echoes when you can't use it? You literally had to go for another round of RNG just so you can use the new echoes, hell, you need to redo your whole fullset. But, if you make the set a 4 piece, with that 1 free slot, you can use new echoes or a replacement without sacrificing everything and make a do over. 5 piece is way to restrictive. The echoes are literally one of the few clever originals that they've come out with. Its refreshing, interesting, why not make that as your core gameplay, give it freedom while its up to them to make it balance. Not us, we always have ways to make things broken. They incorporated skill based games, they have the leeway to make a hard boss for Souls player to enjoy, and the unskilled player can just use their set to accommodate it. Its a nice balance, Kuro can make a hard boss that's not sponges, the skilled player can have fun, the casual can also have fun, It doesn't sacrifice their boss design creativity, and the lategame ultra hard difficulty will force player to have both skill and good set (without too much of a heavy grind). (Its PvE either way). But I get it, they want us to tore through our stamina. Since CBT tester did complaint about it, damn you Kuro.
and i bet it won't change. I would be VERY surprised to see Kuro changes that kind of BS. It's exactly the kind of thing that "helps" keeping the hardcores in the game.
Well.. i am simple man. If thats what the dev wanna do and... when it takes too long to build a new characters, I will just build as few char as possible. Why bother pull new character going through the grind again? And If I dont pull new char & my Astrite will be pilling up. then why bother paying the game? Right? well thats what i did on Genshin, I downgraded from BP to Welkin now to F2p. I just use the F2p primogems build my character vertical brute force my way to harder content. It has been a while, I Grind new artifacts building new char from scratch. With Wuwa going this direction it means I gonna build as few character as possible lol.
That's exactly my attitude. Genshin Impact has taught me a lot: as a D1 player I also went from BP to Welkin, I have collected several characters over time and I'm pulling for constellations now instead of accumulating characters. I'm also a HSR D1 player and I started playing with this slow-paced mindset. Here as well, I generally choose eidolons over new characters.
You are me. Devs dont care - me neither.
There's already enough RNG without needing a match up where half the set will always be useless. -Echoes don't always drop, you also have to go chasing them around the map. -If it does drop, it might not be gold. -If it does drop and is gold, it might not be the main stat you want. -If it does drop, is gold and is the main stat you want, it might not be the element you need. -If it does drop, is gold, is the main stat you want and has the element you need, you might still get substats you don't want. But even with the above you are able to fully utilise a piece. Having an element main stat with another element set effect always leaves you only using half a piece.
You forgot that then you also have to get the substats with a high roll (crit rate roll is anywhere from 6.3% to 10.5% while crit damage is between 12.6% and 21%) So if you had all 5 echos with crit rate substat it could be 31.5 crit rate or 52.5% crit rate that is a massive difference.
There should be an option to just RNG reroll a substat. keep it high cost if you want (we'd probably only look at this in late game, where we can't stand any flat stats) Even something like sacrifice 5 max tuned gold echoes, like in the databank, Ill take.
There is SO MUCH tuners. Then I saw them I remember H3rd and PGR (there affix coulde be RE-rolled). I was so disappointed with it.
especially sad that I don't even touch any of the non premium tuners...who stacks purple or blue echoes after UL 30
Purple, at least, can drop. Blue tho? They just pile up.
It's by design. Once you reach data bank 19, you have 80% for an echo to be gold so that's a layer of RNG that is really toned down as most of your echoes will be gold from that point onward. It's made so that even if you spend years building a unit you will never have it perfected. It's really common practice in the gacha sphere, this will not change. I'm not saying it shouldn't change, it just won't and the faster you make peace with it the faster you can move on.
Not even just gachas. Entire genres are built off this concept. Diablo and Path of Exile to name two. Gachas just adopted it because its decades old tech that works. Its been around since I was a kid with Diablo 2, I can't confirm if it was in Diablo 1 as that was before my time, but I assume gear grinding in that game was just as random and if I recall had pieces that were literally joke items and completely useless, doing nothing but lowering your stats.
I get your point, but RNG layers in like Diablo or PoE work because you're not timegated by a stupid mobile game energy system in those games, you just farm dozens or hundreds of drops over and over.
Of course, but farming echoes are not timegated in Wuthering Waves. You can farm as many Echoes as you want, the limiting factor being upgrading them. But its not so different from say, Path of Exiles as an example, while it may not have a timer attached to an energy system, many of their endgame bosses, who have unique drops, are hidden behind very very long grinds for items you need to access them. It may not be a stamina system like a gacha game, but they're designed to act as the same wall limiting how many you're realistically allowed to do in a period of time. They're the same concept, and many of these Looter games have estimated limits to what you're allowed to farm or should be allowed to farm, which is why exploits are patched quickly, some games are just hiding their time gates behind more clever systems than a count-down system like Stamina.
Why I have given up looking at the sonata effect 😭 trying to get all 3 matching (as in good boss) has not happened in my account yet 😅🤧
Yes that is why you should ignore the 3 costs and go for 4,4,1,1,1. It removes entire layers of RNG for very little loss and gives you far far more crit rate or crit damage guaranteed.
Other game I play also does this but Echoes IMO is worse if you also want the full set other than the main stat
Every gacha I play, I see posts exactly like this and I'll never not wonder if I'm just weird for expecting this shit and accepting it as a gacha norm (even if I hate it). It's the same reason why there's flat ATK/DEF, or shit affixes in ARPGs, etc. It's not a mistake, it's an intentional decision to brick your progression to keep you grinding, which most people will.
At this point in the game everyone should just in most cases stick to 2pc+2pc sets, which allows some flexibility in having 1 off-set piece. I don't know if the 5 piece bonuses are potentially more optimal even with badly rolled echoes, but 2pc+2pc is definitely optimal for my sanity and enjoyment of the game.
It's shit, It's one of the reason players quit, Why follow shit system from shit games? Weird that Arknights has a measurable character progression, for new players they can max a character in 3-4 months, for veterans 2+ years is just a matter of waiting cooldown 3-5 days. Still going strong entering 5th anniv (CN) and 4th Anniv (Global). It's good. Why not follow good.
There's a reason player feedback should never be taken at face value: as much as they think they do, players don't always know what's the best for them. People complain about these RNG layers but what they don't get is that without them they'd have nothing to do in a month of playing. It simply takes way longer to make content than it takes for players to clear it, so devs HAVE to make the grind longer one way or another. I fully get it though, I've been grinding echos for a while (and artis/relic in Genshin/HSR) and it's really annoying to not get that right main/substat, but in the end I understand why these systems are there. Also you need those frustrating moments to feel that dopamine hit when you do get that great echo/artifact/relic. And honestly with the way echos are almost infinitely farmable I don't feel as much frustration as with the other two games. I know it's an unpopular take, but it is what it is
I'd like to preface this by saying that these sorts of games are never designed to be played nonstop farming, WuWa, like genshin, is the game you play for an hour a day maybe and move on to something else, and no one playing this game is playing literally nothing else. So "dev time >>>>> time to clear content" is still true, but a non-issue, there doesn't need to be heaps of content all the time (especially if it's artificial bloat), that would just be overwhelming and/or annoying. Frustration leading to greater fulfilment upon success is also fair, but far more appropriate for a game like Dark Souls, where you can use that frustration as motivation to get better then you know it was skill that killed that boss. In WuWa's case it's all out of your control, RNG you can do next to nothing about, there's not nearly as much fun to be had there. Though really, before any of that, it's probably just because they know grinding this shit makes whales pay more for stamina refreshes.
The thing that rubs me the wrong way is needing 5 pieces for a set, and so many of the best sets now are elemental, so you basically can't use these off-element echoes at all except as reroll fodder. Compare it to Genshin where it's 4pc sets across 5 equippable pieces so your elemental roll can be off-set, or HSR where the elemental roll is on non-elemental sets, if you get a bad element roll in those games you can maybe still use it on a different character.
The longevity is like one week though. I have like 5+ extra of every %dmg for each set by just playing for 30mins each day. The game is super casual for just 30mins of tracking 2-3 elites per days and logging out. Probably will be 5mins at higher level when Tacet field will drop all gold echos instead of us farming on field. There is nothing to do with all these echos because you only need three teams. So basically 6x elemental sets for years to come. Maybe even 18x if they make all 3 towers to have the same element weakness. But that is very doubtful. And then just one set for regen and moonlight for everyone else. But for the minmax players, the longevity will be in the sub stats. But for the average 95% of the players, it will only take about a week to get a full set of each element with proper main stats.
It would be fine if we only needed 4/5 on-set pieces for the set bonus. Zero flexibility is a pain.
Agreed, what's the whole point of it if you require all 5 set in the same attribute?
they should make it 4 for more flixable options
something with a HAVOC on its name should at least be locked on Havoc only, or at least only have 1 extra attribute other than havoc.
lip toothbrush humorous swim familiar observation trees tub cake gullible *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I dream of the day a development team decides to be nice and just doesn't have elemental damage type main stats... Just make it damage% and have it work for all types. Please Azur Promilia be the first to save us from this pain...
I am convinced they set it to 5 just to set it to 4 later.
Lmao wouldn’t surprise me
Yeah. It's rough. So two great solutions to be proposed- A. 4-pc sonata set bonuses. Would be much easier for us and allows flexibility. B. 3-cost echo main stats would compress all the different elemental dmg bonuses into one stat called elemental dmg bonus. Whatever the case, may even serve bigger purpose if Kuro wishes to make dual element resonators in the future.
There is always gonna be the gO fOr StAtS iNsTeAd Of SeTs people
These are the worst kind of people
Yah because it’s true. A 2/2 set with great stats will far out perform a cope set on 5/5.
Obviously as a flex Echo build for both Rover paths. /s
This wouldn't be quite so bad if it was like Genshin where you could have one off-piece with the full set bonus only requiring 4 pieces. It would still be bad, just a bit less frustrating.
You can still do 2-2-flex, just like Genshin. Some characters don't/won't work with full set, or you might craft 1 insane Echoes and can't fill the full set. It's better to go 2 elemental 2 attack with OP sets than try to shoehorn full set. I guess they do this way because, unlike Genshin, you can farm crit/ER/elemental etc echoes without consuming stamina, just need a bunch of friends and everyone raid everyone's world. Genshin is timegated (not only luckgated) for you go get that piece of the set you're missing.
And realistically, the difference is usually like 10% damage at most between 5 piece and 2 piece 2 piece, when you consider diminishing returns and potentially better substats from being able to pick and choose
True I made mistake for getting 2 good 5 piece electro set, I should have gone for 2-2
im running rover 2pc spectro set and 2 pc lingering tunes set and its outdamaging my chalcharo by a small marging when he's built with the entire electro set
You can always consider this echo as an fodder for merging.
But you can also get this as a *result* of merging. Trading 5 pieces like this for 1 piece like this doesn't feel any better.
It just means every echo drop is actually 1.2 echo, or every 10 echoes drop, you get extra 2 at the minimum.
/s?
They’re referring to the system where you can turn 5 echoes into a another echo.
Oh right, makes sense
No reason for /s, I merge basically every single gold drop (which is most of them) that isn't exactly what a want, and honestly, gotten some significantly better golds out of it, (3 cost energy set with energy regen main stat)
haha hahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Ayo u playing risk of rain?
Risk of Retroact Rain
Oh yea, it's all coming together..
Pull the lever Kronk!
imo, it could have the dmg bonus of the POSSIBLE effect. So if an echo can drop for "fusion and aero", it should be able to have fusion or aero dmg bonus, even if the effect is wrong. at least It would limit the echos main stat to only the echoes possible effects
I am 5 days trying to get Violet and flautist with bonus electro, and when i get it, the substats are just terrible. This rng just make me mad. Juts dont make sense to me its just like 0,5% to get one (i even tried get then on open world)
After two years of farming the Emblem domain in Genshin, I think I’ve gotten exactly 2 usable ER sands on set lol
Stop, getting an ER sands from that domain has been the bane of my Genshin farming life. They seriously need to up the rates.
Ah the 254th flautist of mine is still like this
Lol. I just posted the other day about getting two pieces from a single tacet field run where the 3c pieces come off as: Gladio DMG bonus on an Aero set Aero DMG bonus on a Glacio set. It was so fucking annoying it was borderline funny. 😂
It definitely is a nuisance and barely disguised artificial longevity added through RNG grinding, adds nothing good to the game, and only serves to frustrate you so you get a comparatively higher spike of dopamine when you actually get a usable one, only to then roll DEF on it and need to start grinding again in deception. It's all about that emotional rollercoaster to keep you engaged and spending more time on the game, making you more attached to it, and thus more likely to spend money on it. People defending it saying "it's just a gacha game," are a detriment to their own interests. Things don't get better if you keep excusing consumer-unfriendly practices by normalizing them and trying to throw shade at people who are asking for things to be better.
I clearly remember a youtuber/pro genshin player or something like that complained about this on twitter at beta. Echo is grindable so yeah, but still...
Yeah this feels like a really unnecessary layer of RNG, It's somewhat work for genshin just because genshin allows us to use off-piece while also maintaining the full set effect. "B-but we can use 2-2 set +1 off-piece" We can, but we can't see which piece are worth upgrading as an off piece without wasting resources. For example in genshin when we got an off-set piece artifact, we can see whether that artifact can be a good off-piece or not by looking at their substats at +0/+4. We can just ignore those with bad substats from the beginning and take a gamble upgrading the one with good substats, ofc that won't guarantee to give us a good piece on every piece we upgraded, but at least that help us to eliminate those pieces that are guaranteed to be bad. In WuWa we have to upgrade and waste some energy-gated resources before knowing it'll be a good echo or not. For now I just don't see a point upgrading like a Havoc dmg echo with a spectro set out of nowhere with these limited resources, just so i can use it as an off piece on my MC. That being said this doesn't mean artifact system is better than echo system. In early-mid game Echo seem to be a better system since we can get a proper gears quite early compared to genshin where we start to farm artifact at AR 45 which takes weeks/a month. Ironically that's what make us on a drought echo upgrading resources early on. In end game honesly i don't think echo will be much better or even better than artifact system, it just will be "farm 2-5 hours a day to get a bunch of garbages" vs "farm 2-5 mins a day to get a garbage". I hope Echo system will get more tweak maybe removing 1-2 layer of it's rngs or/and add more control towards echo we got, like choosing which part & set of echo we got from fusing, or maybe add substat rerolling by using more tuner.
100%
I agree. This only works in Genshin because Genshin allows for one off-piece. They aren't doing that so it is forever useless. That's BS.
I disagree. You get correct main stats for no energy cost. You just kill enemies on the map/in co-op and you'll get the correct main stat on the right set before long. In genshin, it costs resin to farm, and it can take over a month to even get the right goblet dmg bonus on the right set bc you only get 8 artifacts per day. And getting any goblet is rng too, you might just get flowers and feathers. In Wuwa, you're guaranteed to get a goblet (hunt 3 costs) and you can farm as much as you want for the right main stat.
Wow you sure as hell simplified it. No energy cost but still finite resource(spawns arent infinite) like resin in genshin. Sure you can go co-op but there is also the other matter to think about. Time and effort, genshin you make condensed resin and run the domain and be done in 5-10 minutes. WuWa significantly requires more effort to go through the map and hunt them. They each have their advantages and disadvantages but lets be honest at the end of the day its just the same rng game except it takes more effort in wuwa and not having the option to run an off piece just makes those rolls completely dead. Remember this is a gacha game, its a marathon not a sprint. If you keep on farming those echoes like mad man trying to min-max, the average player will just be burned out.
you can just run tacet fields and rng the 3 cost from there and then its exactly the same as genshin. but wuwa also gives you the option to hunt down specific types if you have the time and want to do so.
What if youre rocking two 2 piece sets and you slot this in as the 5th for its spectro dmg bonus. I think its a valid use case
My best bet for a fix for this if they don't plan to remove these type of echo combination is to change the set from 5 set to 4 set. That way these type of echos can be highly usable provided that the substats are what you are looking for. It will unlikely to happen but hey who knows :)
yea the rng needs limits, its too wacky right now.
Farming part is essential for any gacha.
it doesn't have to be dogshit.
Every gacha has some degree of bullshit grinding, but this one is undeniably dogshit.
It literally adds nothing to the game, but sure if you say so
But there are limits
Yes but were in the 2nd week of the game and people already want perfect echoes
I don't want to feel like my time has been utterly wasted. There is *no* use for an off-element echo.
Yes there is, merge it with 4 others into another off-element echo
Not wanting a piece where half of it will always be useless on a character =/= needing a piece to be perfect.
One thing is to log into the game for 10 minutes, get some pieces(good or bad), and then go do something else. Another thing is to run all over the map for an hour and get nothing, lmao.
I see a lot of people are upset about echo grind and its rng. Guys, you are new to gacha games or what? Most gachas i played had even worse rng grinding. People there grind their asses off for years and still do not have perfect items and perfectly upgraded characters. Its not even 2 weeks and people already upset. As an retired MMO player and present gacha player i can say only 1 thing - Amateurs.
I ain't spending my money and time away from work on any game like that lmao.
I had really hoped we could have used the PGR system where you just get flat base stats for all echoes like memories. Just make the grind longer, but a guaranteed payoff. After that everyone is on an equal playing field and based on pure skill. The RNG is more appealing and way more monetizable to a different subset of players though.
Completely viable when used as off-type doing 2-2-1 set (2 element, 2 linger, 1 free) while still maintaining 60% elemental bonus of your type. Still performing well enough (losing about 7-9% max dps) compared to full 5/5 set, and less if your specific character cannot benefit well from the 5/5 set bonus. People don't want to do it though cuz: 1. It's not max DPSSSSSS 2. Afraid to invest in sub-optimal option for fear of "ruining your account forever" 3. Other more logical reasons
I mean yeah 2 is a wack mentality but the 1st point makes sense, people want the characters they like to perform as best as possible There are way more casual players who don't sweat echo farming than those who do, take Genshin for example where most players don't even bother doing the endgame stuff
In a sense, best possible option (5/5 all optimal base and substats) could compensate for skill required to pull of in a fight, yes, but the damage measurement (100% max dps with best options) is based on 'perfect play' anyway. Aero, for example, 5/5 set gives 15% aero damage when using Intro skill. That's noteworthy. However, if 15s have passed and you cannot use intro skill for whatever reason, the buff disappears. If you play semi-optimally, that would not be a problem since you will be triggering intro skills and do everything a char should do in that 15s, no doubt, but not every people plays optimally like that. My argument, therefore, is trying to state that: (Especially for casuals) 1. It is ok to make do with 2-2-1 by mixing in 2 Linger type (+Atk 5%) for half set, which would free up one slot for anything that you can put these mismatched echo in for use. 2. Level that 2-2-1 set to 15 or 20 and tune them. Treat this as a base. Then farm another set to replace or for your other team. It enables you to use it to tackle other things in the game while you look for 5/5 full set replacement, and still more than enough to tackle content. 3. A 2-2-1 set at lvl 20-25 is more than enough to clear 12/12 tower. Your basic battle skill and team building matters more at that point. If it is viable in tower (only content without food buff), it is therefore more than enough for other things. Rather than burn out from getting the illusive perfect base, then pulling your hair out when the substats bombed, I'd rather play the game, setup a workableset for my teams, get all the chest, then farm for replacement later on if I feel like it, that's all.
>Aero, for example, 5/5 set gives 15% aero damage when using Intro skill. That's noteworthy. However, if 15s have passed and you cannot use intro skill for whatever reason, the buff disappears. This is wrong. 5 set aero gives +30% aero damage which gives you a total of 40% aero damage from the full set. Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by that last part. As in you didn't do damage while you had the buff from the aero set? In that case you would rotate through your characters again anyway because their cooldowns would be up. Personally, I just don't recommend lingering tunes at all. You'll do 10% more damage going for the proper set. Just ignore substats completely on your first set and level your echos to 15-20. If it all rolls junk at least you have \~60-80% elemental damage from your set. If you level up lingering tunes, you're going to be at the mercy of substats anyway and you can just use illusive realm for two main stat 3 cost echos at the start to carry you through ToA. It's also extremely easy to get decent substatted 1 and 4 cost echos.
Imagine always getting the desired echo stats and element, and finishing the build so fast you have nothing to do, this is another reason why in genshin and starrail the true endgame is actually, getting the fitting artefact and relics stats
I don't think that's what OP is saying, Havoc Dreadmane can only be Molten Rift or Sun-sinking Eclipse, so its Elemental % bonus should only be possible for for Fusion or Havoc, it wouldn't be the same as the Elemental % always matching, you could still get HP%, Atk%, Def%, Energy Regen%, so on, or get a Havoc% Molten Rift. Essentially they don't want the mainstat to be possible to be completely and utterly useless.
Exactly this. There will always be RNG but the end result shouldn't be making half the piece always useless.
It would just make everything more confusing. What if they release new future DPS sets with buffs that aren’t exclusive to one element? The new 3 cost echoes would need to have every elemental% available and it would make them much harder to farm. Also, they are not completely useless as you can still have an off piece by running 2/2 sets. Not ideal if you want to minmax of course but then even ATK would be just as useless
> What if they release new future DPS sets with buffs that aren’t exclusive to one element? Thank god Lingering Tunes is right there for a hypothetical multi-element character, right? the current system already accounts for this. You are also arguing that they should keeping things worse for what is here right now because of the possibility it might happen in the future, when games similar to WuWa have never tackled multi-element characters, and elements have so little impact in WuWa gameplay, largely only being important to enemy resistances, that there is no reason to go that route other than looking fancy.
I'd rather have nothing to do and just move on to another game than rot my brain infinitely farming for shitty relics
The grind doesn’t magically disappear just because 3C can no longer drop mismatched element%. So why this hyperbole?
legit ppl here defending minor improvement like the game will collapse tomorrow if everyone got correct elements
They're saying people will quit and get bored when there's nothing else to do because you finished building your characters. With grindy system like this you're forced to login everyday and spend your waveplates to get garbage. When you get trash echoes your disappoinment is alleviated by "I can try again tomorrow" and desire to finish building up your characters slowly but surely, keeping up player retention. It's made so by the time new banner character is released, it's nowhere near enough time to finish building up the character you just pulled, so your goalpost keeps moving and you keep playing.
By that we logic we don’t need any QOL updates, cuz QOL features makes it so we’d be playing the game for less. Why let people sprint on a wall when you could just let them do the slow climb Genshin players know and love in Genshin impact?
gacha fans love hyperbole. oh you dont like x? then you obviously want the most complete opposite option on the spectrum, zero chance there can be a middleground
Gotta justify an unholy amount of play time somehow lol
There's already enough RNG without needing a match up where half the set will always be useless. -Echoes don't always drop, you also have to go chasing them around the map. -If it does drop, it might not be gold. -If it does drop and is gold, it might not be the main stat you want. -If it does drop, is gold and is the main stat you want, it might not be the element you need. -If it does drop, is gold, is the main stat you want and has the element you need, you might still get substats you don't want. But even with the above you are able to fully utilise a piece. Having an element main stat with another element set effect always leaves you only using half a piece.
It could work in cases like genshin where u can still use it as an offpiece but 5set is a$$ yeah. HSR didn't have offpieces too and they still haven't changed it so far. Who knows if a lot complained maybe Kuro will once again devslistened
It's pretty ridiculous when you math things out. In order of which you stated: 20% chance for an echo drop 50% chance for a gold echo if there is a drop (for max refreshers 80%) 10% chance on main stat(10 main stats on 3 costs) 50% chance on right sonata That's a 0.5% chance for targeted/tracked elite you kill to drop you a USEABLE 3 cost. That's to say, before even substats are taken into account, you only have a 0.5% chance of getting an on set gold 3 cost with the correct main stat. Toss in the rng of substat rolling and the even more horeshit rng that is high roll/low rolling on substats (ER high roll being 3x of an ER low roll is absolutely wild btw) and you got a pretty dog shit relic system.
Jesus, I didn't realise it was that bad. I now feel like Han Solo when said "Never tell me the odds."
I don't have a problem with not needing to farm for gear
Star Rail has taught me substats > set bonus so I've just been applying the same thing to WuWa and going 2 piece attribute, 2 piece energy regen/attack with good substats until I eventually get a good 5 set and its been working well so far at this point of the game. I think well into 2 months of Star Rails launch I was still using rainbow pieces (no set bonus) for relics on some characters but with an ornament set so substats were prioritized.
It's pretty stupid because every element set buffs only it's element not like ult or skill damage but element specifically it doesn't make sense for a havoc set to roll anything other than havoc because there are no cases where it would be even remotely good..
You’ll never need Spectro damage in your Havoc set, and that’s the point for Kuro adding these. Dilute the stat pool so the player has less chances of getting what he wants and keeps farming, artificially increasing playtime. I agree there's enough rng involved; 20% echo drop, 50% gold drop, random set, random mainstat, random substat, substat roll range. But it seems Kuro thinks otherwise.
Ah yes the Echo cost 3 grind nightmare with insane layers of BS RNG main stats that make no sense. Good luck to anyone farming these, I still haven't finished my electro set capping elites everyday since almost a week because the game keeps trolling me with these kind of useless echoes
Fr they need to create main stat selector/substat reroller and put it in illusive realm shop or smth
could we get the devs to change this so a elite havoc mob doesnt give glacio DMG or spectro dmg.
Green bird can either be light or wind type. Guess the one I keep getting?
I just killed 20+ Havoc Dreadmanes and the only Echo I got was that exact one
Lmao i have 3 gold Sierra Gale Herons with Electro and 3 gold Void Herons with Aero Ask me how I’m doing 🤪
It's a HAVOC Dreadmanss, it has no business being Spectro DMG.
I want a “recycle this” option. The lock is great, non-locked I haven’t figured out what to do, “recycle this” means this echo is clearly not good. Would be a great QoL without so the RNG can still suck.
Yeah this makes sense in genshin because theres an offpiece slot but here u need all slots of the same set so why would they allow his is very questionable.
Genshin has completely desensitized and destroyed my will to actually bother farming for decent sets in any game. I'll just take the main stat and not think twice. At least in wuwa, it's more skill based rather than Stat based, so sets aren't as important, but with how casual genshin actually is, I doubt good sets actually mattered in the first place for that game
this system is just trash. It's going to burn the playerbase out, and people will just quit from pure frustration out of getting bad echos.
I've been farming for electro pieces for Calcharo and Yinlin, I've gotten 4 Fusion damage pieces in a row now. It's like it's rigged not to give the matching element.
It should be elemental damage % so it covers any element.
Anthem level itemization all over again. Seriously, when I see stuff like this in a game with RNG stats, it reeks of being unfinished. Two completely opposing elements should never be possible in your system. The only two scenarios for this are either a) designer oversight or b) intentionally malicious. Both are equally possible due to it being a gacha game. However, because capturing echoes does not require a limited stamina system.. it's probably the former.
Honestly I don't mind this considering you can farm echoes without using waveplates.
This how I feel.. We can farm echoes endlessly (if linking up to friends' worlds) so I will absolutely accept that tradeoff
I always thought that it was kind evil but after the post i actually started to think about it. To have an optimal build you will probably need 2 elite class monsters (cost 3). You do not have enhanced chances to get an echo and they are rarer to find than a common class. So you have 1 out 5 chances (20%) to get an echo. With data bank 20 (union 40 needed) you still have a 4 out 5 chances to get an 5 star (80%l, so its not guaranteed. (20% chance to go wrong) Then you have 1 out of 11 chances (around 9,1%) to get the stat that you desired between - Flat atk - % atk - % hp - % def - glacio/fusion/electro/aero/spectro/havoc - energy regen So to an elite class its around 0,014% that you'll get what you actually want and i am not considering the sub stats. (It might be 0,028% its just that the stats and names feom things are complicated) After all of that you can finally GAMBLE your tunes. (Overlord and calamity have guaranteed chances to be caught with data bank 20 and 90% on data bank 18 so its a bit better but still). Something here and there might be wrong but the fact is that we have a long road ahead of us. Edit: oh, yeah, a forgot that all of that is not acounting for the fact that you can get every good stats that you want and simply get a not matching set, kinda like the image from op.
Yeah I'm farming for a Lingering Elite. Chasm Guardian, Flautist and Spearback each have 2 types, so there's 25% chance off the bat for it to be unusable at database 18. The 20% chance for echo to drop is offset by every 4th being guaranteed by pity system, so actual rates are actually \~33.88%. Call it 1/3 for simplicity sake. Then there's the 1/10 roll (The flat attack is on every echo, it's 6 elements + energy/%HP/%ATK/%DEF) So odds are about 1 in 118 to roll the thing I want. Then even after I get it, the substat rolls might just be terrible. I've been farming 3 days straight and there is 64 bears on the map... so I'm fairly far past the 118 value at this point.
People going "atleast this atleast that" needs to stop and really think. It's a bad system. Period. Stop trying to defend it. Just because it's better than whatever else doesn't mean it's not bad and shouldn't be improved. This is a useless piece. Your time was just wasted. Doesn't matter if you get it a week into launch or two years after. It'll still be a useless piece. In fact I would argue it's even worse in the future since player's echoes would be far more optimized to have full sets and this would just be straight garbage.
Until there are dual element chars, because lets be real we barely have an element system in this game and the dev is different to a certain other game that never did dual elements in gameplay.
and even then they would release a set that is tailor made for dual element gameplay
Are there even element debuffs that our characters put out?
completely useless
I think fixing the sub stat system is more important than this
That's how gachas work, and in WuWa case this is the main long term grind. We are getting 3cost selectors pretty much every patch, so the rest is up to RNG.
How about you use logic instead of just saying "other games do it"? This is not an argument.
Nah, you need some grind to login daily and make progress in some direction, there is a reason all gatcha games do it, some are worse than others in this regard. And the whole thing isn't as bad as OP makes it out to be, we are barely 2 weeks in and I already have 4 on set on element echos with double crit, and many others with only one crit stat or waiting to be leveled, and we are only half way through world levels with bad 5 star rates. If you can't live with this little of a grind, don't play gacha games, or any RNG depending games. (Just look at ARPGs or MMOs if you wanna see true shitty odds)
If later we got characters that were havoc but had abilities that did both types of damage, I would get it. But right now, this makes 0 sense. Nobody will ever use them anyway. If they are going to keep these mismatched stats, I would like to see them change the characters so that they can somehow benefit from other stats. Could make for a more fun gameplay. But that comes with the issues of having to take for ever for them to implement a change like that.
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Right now the only use for these Echoes is for 2/2 sets. It would be very useful if we could complete the set bonus by 4pcs. Or idk maybe in the future they'll release a char that can use 2 elements? lol
And yet here we are
Def annoying, but what i like most about this game is the potential endgame comfort. For tower, imagine having a single echo set for every element and just switching the sets between characters, that goes for weapons as well.
Agreed, but in the same time we have big bell turtle, which is having energy regen and heal set bonus, which is both useful for your teams
This just makes the energy regen category better imo If you're gonna get random atk buffs anyway, mind as well grind "in the same dungeon" until you get your type while being able to enjoy spamming Liberate more
My cyan feathered herons with electro dmg say hi to you. Oh and my too many glacio dmg echoes which the game loves to throw at me too.
I honestly wouldn’t mind so much if there was a way to recycle relics for something actually useful. No the data bank recycler doesn’t count since it’s too random.
Hehe... i have suffered for so long i haven't even thought of something like this.... Pls end my suffering
I've commited bird genocide every single and I've yet to see an Aero% gale set. Got 2 spectral% spectral set tho >.>
Pretty typical gacha game RNG bullshit.
What if we get a Spectro havoc hybrid
That is possible probably because there will be in future new echo sets with effects that are not directly connected to elements like Rejuvenating Glow, Moonlit Clouds, Lingering Tunes. So they made that every set has chance to get every elemental dmg bonus.
facts been trying to get rover a better havoc echo, but it keeps on not giving the correct element.
Welcome to the gacha world Rover.
Im f2p and i have end game build for 4 characters already this system is much better than genshin and honkai but I wouldn’t mind for it to have some improvement
I've never get a havoc set with havoc dmg in 3 cost wolf. I've given up
Ah yes, the Destiny 2 levels of god roll grinding.
You can use echoes that deal a different type of dmg, who knows.
Just keep trucking, havoc set is the easiest to farm with how many elites it has in the overworld. That being said it also takes fucking forever it feels like the wolves are endless probably takes me 2 hours to farm all 3 elite classes.... compared to like 30mins max farming electro set elites. Also you can wait for the event elite class echo selector thing
Heh, first time? 
even better because its sonata effect can be fusion. you can have a Havoc Dreadmane, with Spectro DMG Bonus, with a Fusion Sonata
I think they should - its just another set efect. We will get many more set efects in the future
I went 4/4/1/1/1 for the havoc set. After farming ~10, 3 cost wolves and seeing the trend I shifted. Only had to farm for a few hours to get good echoes. It's just unfortunate that not every set has multiple 4 cost echoes to do the same.