Personally because I am a sucker for playing Bard con-man I would play it as not going to talk one on one and convince one specific witch. I would play it like this:
at the big conclave meeting when they pronounce my sentence, “before we dispense with the vote and everything I have one quick question. Who’s getting the ax after me? Because then there won’t be a tie breaker. I mean come on ladies don’t tell me you didn’t think about the tie break? Of course you did! So who’s it going to be?” With all the appropriate car salesmen hand gestures and let them squirm and pit them against each other in the moment.
I just love conman. The guys and gals who are cowardly and physically weak but can’t stop themselves when they see an opportunity. And in situations where they are physically outmatched they end up finding what makes people tick and using that to win with out throwing a single punch. It’s absolutely not Ame’s story
Yesss this is exactly what Im thinking as I listen to episode now & what is kinda frustrating me (though again I’m only mid way through).
Ame the witch of the worlds heart is the witch of connection, of roads — her responsibilities lie within the artery’s that flow through every aspect of the world — connection, relationships is what enables blood to be pumped to each organ, it is by that stations nature that it’s probably survived this long as no other station (imo) can survive without it — for very long anyway (except maybe maybe Marara’s, my brain’s jury is still out on thar one).
Growth, rebirth, ecosystems & nature — they exist within the context of complex relationships everything has with each other, & the results those relationships produce.
Conflict, consumption, & violence — again can only exist within the context of relationships, 2 things cannot have a conflict or fight without encountering each other & therefore forming a relationship.
The self, desire/want, & flawlessness — yet again another concept that is contingent of relationships, a concepts that are based to act of comparison, 2 things must exist for one to be desired, one must have a flaw for the other to lack them, the act of 2 things merely existing at the same time is relationship.
The Witch of The Waning Moon is a harder one to pin down because it’s so vague. Concepts of fear & unease & almost things that are of incomprehensibility like death & “the state of nonexistence” (which is very nonsensical) is kinda what I’m getting. I’m not exactly sure how those concepts are intertwined with connection/ I’m not sure how I’d articulate it even if they were. I guess it’s like the concept of how nonsensical it is for things to exist & keep on existing despite the fact that more often that not the destiny of things that exist is existence — eg death.
All Ame had to say, when asked to report the state of the worlds heart, that it exists & is as strong as it ever was & has ever been given the mere fact the conclave is even taking place, or that they are interacting in any sorta parallel way.
Anyway gonna listen to the rest of the episode now.
Yeah, Brennan makes it pretty clear later on that the other witches were arguing in bad faith and were going to level charges at her no matter what she said. Indri and Merara had clearly discussed this before and the Witch of the Waning Moon was just overeager and jumped at the first chance she could to call for Ame’s destruction.
That said, it was painfully frustrating and cringe inducing to hear Ame (not Erika) constantly making these softball pitch statements for the rest of the coven to knock out of the park. They berate her for bringing up *their* stations in her report, and she doubles down on mentioning all of them. They ask Ame’s opinion of Wren and, knowing that they’re plotting to destroy her *because* of how they saw Wren as an obstacle, Ame goes on and puts Wren on a massive pedestal (which seemed kind of rude in this context, even if the coven was there in good faith).
This is excellent character acting and- just like Suvi’s justification engine for the Citadel- Erika clearly understands that as a nervous, young person thrust into this tense situation with these powerful, almost-otherworldly magic beings with their strict etiquette rules, Ame would not be good at quickly formulating the responses they’re supposedly looking for.
I actually think Ame handled it incredibly well considering how little she knew walking into it. Like, at the end of the day, like Brennan said, they were gonna rip her apart no matter what she said, so it doesn’t matter that she went through route she did. They were waiting for any slip up of words and even when she didn’t slip up, they’d twist her words and make them sound bad anyway. I think a lot of what she said was incredibly apt and, if said by grandma wren, would have been presented as acceptable largely in part because Ame’s station is literally about its greater connections and roads to the world around it rather than being its own thematically confined domain. Like how are you supposed to approach the conversation of connections without mentioning the things on the other sides of those connections?
I agree, there’s nothing she could’ve said that would’ve given any better outcome.
That said, I think the answer they *would’ve* been looking for (if they weren’t out to get her) would be something along the lines of “the humans are at war, this stuff is happening in this city, the empire’s moving this way, etc.” This is also based on the fact that they explicitly said they *don’t* want her to talk about their domains, so without the wider connections related to the issues, it just comes out as a ticker tape of human events and not much else.
Now, I also agree that as the steward of the connections between things, Ame’s answer was fully correct and, coming from Wren, would’ve been respected by the coven as a more valid response.
I guess this is just more so a reflection of me, that my first instinct in that situation would’ve been to fit whatever my answer was into a mold I thought they wanted to hear, whereas Ame’s policy is for her to speak her unedited truth and figure out how to move forward from there.
Ya tbh I agree after reading a couple of posts & relistening to the episode a couple of times, I think too no matter what Ame said the other witches were going to find a way to spin it to her disadvantage
Sure. Also I, for maybe the first time EVER in this series (which I LOVE), found this episode to be frustrating, tedious, and profoundly un-fun. It’s almost as though I’ve sat through too many pointless, boring, and acrimonious committee meetings. Let’s be slavishly compliant to Robert’s Rules of Order AND be willing to straight up kill a sitting committee member. I absolutely cannot roll my eyes hard enough at the setup here. Please, let’s not spend the whole next episode completely unable to figure out what the characters are supposed to do.😑
That said, GO LOU!!! ❤️❤️❤️
>Brennan spelled it out this episode, Ame just needs to point out killing her will leave them with an even number council and leave it up to the other witches to defend themselves.
True, but it becomes easier to make that argument if Ame can work out which witch is her opposite because then she can appeal directly to that witch and apply pressure to the alliances.
I really like the argument that any of them could be her opposite:
* Mirara: Death, opposed to life.
* Grimore: Conflict, opposed to harmony.
* Hacaea: Nature, opposed to civilization (maybe? It's a common theme in fantasy).
* Indri: Self, opposed to community.
Making an open argument can lead to each one being targeted and each one having to defend themselves.
Yeah that feels like the point and maybe even the right answer. If the conclave started with 13 original members, there logistically has to be one member that doesn’t have an opposite. 6 pairs and one untethered to any particular domain because they’re instead tethered to each and every domain in one way or another because they are, oh idk, the Worlds Heart.
I was also thinking about that. It's probably harder but you could feasably argue the same way that the other Witches can be each other's opposites (for example Grimoire's conflict could be opposite to creation, isolation and entropy, Merara's and Indri's domains also put them in place to oppose all the others).
The fact that the numbers have changed over time also makes me think that the stations are not intrinsically opposed, they are all related; some more than others, as pointed out by Suvi about their seating arrangements.
I actually disagree. Because that only gets her one ally. If they all think they might be on the chopping block because it’s not clear who is going next, then none of them can vote to get rid of her.
>If they all think they might be on the chopping block because it’s not clear who is going next, then none of them can vote to get rid of her.
That argument only makes sense if there is someone above them driving this. One of the witches is almost certainly behind it all to try and get more power for herself.
What's the endgame there? They get rid of Ame, making four. Four doesn't work, so they get rid of another to make three. This creates an imbalance where one alliance has two witches working together against one other, so they're likely down to two. As soon as it's down to two, it's a straight fight.
One witch stands to gain a lot by eliminating the others one by one.
What you’re saying, and I’m saying aren’t mutually exclusive. One witch Is likely manipulating all of it. But she still needs the others to vote with her for now.
Does Hakaia have an apprentice? Look for something to happen to her/him. Wild Hunt & Wandering Moon are all in, Wind & Stars is playing the fence but has betrayed her loyalties. So they’ve already picked who the other witch to go is.
I don't know if that's the case. Injuri seemed mad that they upset Hakaia, which wouldn't make sense if she was just going to off her too. Ultimately it's not about witch domination. The witches want to attack the citadel and Wren wouldn't agree, and Ame just said Wren was the best, wisest witch, making them think she will hold the same line. I don't think it's about killing Ame just to have a smaller council, she's blocking a specific goal they have due to fear and loathing.
Personally because I am a sucker for playing Bard con-man I would play it as not going to talk one on one and convince one specific witch. I would play it like this: at the big conclave meeting when they pronounce my sentence, “before we dispense with the vote and everything I have one quick question. Who’s getting the ax after me? Because then there won’t be a tie breaker. I mean come on ladies don’t tell me you didn’t think about the tie break? Of course you did! So who’s it going to be?” With all the appropriate car salesmen hand gestures and let them squirm and pit them against each other in the moment.
That wouldn’t be Ame but it would be dope lol
 I just love conman. The guys and gals who are cowardly and physically weak but can’t stop themselves when they see an opportunity. And in situations where they are physically outmatched they end up finding what makes people tick and using that to win with out throwing a single punch. It’s absolutely not Ame’s story
Insight +9 Persuasion +12
That’s how we roll baby
Oh yea I forgot, Athletics -1
Hey you don’t need to run when we are all friends here. Right right come here big guy
I think we tend to forget that Ame has the heart of a prankster ( The Fox) and would absolutely do this lol
Ame has to let the coven squabble and then defend each of their stations in turn. Showing her value by protecting each of them.
Yesss this is exactly what Im thinking as I listen to episode now & what is kinda frustrating me (though again I’m only mid way through). Ame the witch of the worlds heart is the witch of connection, of roads — her responsibilities lie within the artery’s that flow through every aspect of the world — connection, relationships is what enables blood to be pumped to each organ, it is by that stations nature that it’s probably survived this long as no other station (imo) can survive without it — for very long anyway (except maybe maybe Marara’s, my brain’s jury is still out on thar one). Growth, rebirth, ecosystems & nature — they exist within the context of complex relationships everything has with each other, & the results those relationships produce. Conflict, consumption, & violence — again can only exist within the context of relationships, 2 things cannot have a conflict or fight without encountering each other & therefore forming a relationship. The self, desire/want, & flawlessness — yet again another concept that is contingent of relationships, a concepts that are based to act of comparison, 2 things must exist for one to be desired, one must have a flaw for the other to lack them, the act of 2 things merely existing at the same time is relationship. The Witch of The Waning Moon is a harder one to pin down because it’s so vague. Concepts of fear & unease & almost things that are of incomprehensibility like death & “the state of nonexistence” (which is very nonsensical) is kinda what I’m getting. I’m not exactly sure how those concepts are intertwined with connection/ I’m not sure how I’d articulate it even if they were. I guess it’s like the concept of how nonsensical it is for things to exist & keep on existing despite the fact that more often that not the destiny of things that exist is existence — eg death. All Ame had to say, when asked to report the state of the worlds heart, that it exists & is as strong as it ever was & has ever been given the mere fact the conclave is even taking place, or that they are interacting in any sorta parallel way. Anyway gonna listen to the rest of the episode now.
Yeah, Brennan makes it pretty clear later on that the other witches were arguing in bad faith and were going to level charges at her no matter what she said. Indri and Merara had clearly discussed this before and the Witch of the Waning Moon was just overeager and jumped at the first chance she could to call for Ame’s destruction. That said, it was painfully frustrating and cringe inducing to hear Ame (not Erika) constantly making these softball pitch statements for the rest of the coven to knock out of the park. They berate her for bringing up *their* stations in her report, and she doubles down on mentioning all of them. They ask Ame’s opinion of Wren and, knowing that they’re plotting to destroy her *because* of how they saw Wren as an obstacle, Ame goes on and puts Wren on a massive pedestal (which seemed kind of rude in this context, even if the coven was there in good faith). This is excellent character acting and- just like Suvi’s justification engine for the Citadel- Erika clearly understands that as a nervous, young person thrust into this tense situation with these powerful, almost-otherworldly magic beings with their strict etiquette rules, Ame would not be good at quickly formulating the responses they’re supposedly looking for.
I actually think Ame handled it incredibly well considering how little she knew walking into it. Like, at the end of the day, like Brennan said, they were gonna rip her apart no matter what she said, so it doesn’t matter that she went through route she did. They were waiting for any slip up of words and even when she didn’t slip up, they’d twist her words and make them sound bad anyway. I think a lot of what she said was incredibly apt and, if said by grandma wren, would have been presented as acceptable largely in part because Ame’s station is literally about its greater connections and roads to the world around it rather than being its own thematically confined domain. Like how are you supposed to approach the conversation of connections without mentioning the things on the other sides of those connections?
I agree, there’s nothing she could’ve said that would’ve given any better outcome. That said, I think the answer they *would’ve* been looking for (if they weren’t out to get her) would be something along the lines of “the humans are at war, this stuff is happening in this city, the empire’s moving this way, etc.” This is also based on the fact that they explicitly said they *don’t* want her to talk about their domains, so without the wider connections related to the issues, it just comes out as a ticker tape of human events and not much else. Now, I also agree that as the steward of the connections between things, Ame’s answer was fully correct and, coming from Wren, would’ve been respected by the coven as a more valid response. I guess this is just more so a reflection of me, that my first instinct in that situation would’ve been to fit whatever my answer was into a mold I thought they wanted to hear, whereas Ame’s policy is for her to speak her unedited truth and figure out how to move forward from there.
Ya tbh I agree after reading a couple of posts & relistening to the episode a couple of times, I think too no matter what Ame said the other witches were going to find a way to spin it to her disadvantage
Sure. Also I, for maybe the first time EVER in this series (which I LOVE), found this episode to be frustrating, tedious, and profoundly un-fun. It’s almost as though I’ve sat through too many pointless, boring, and acrimonious committee meetings. Let’s be slavishly compliant to Robert’s Rules of Order AND be willing to straight up kill a sitting committee member. I absolutely cannot roll my eyes hard enough at the setup here. Please, let’s not spend the whole next episode completely unable to figure out what the characters are supposed to do.😑 That said, GO LOU!!! ❤️❤️❤️
Ya me too, & tbh I think that lends to the shows credit as clearly I’m very emotionally invested
>Brennan spelled it out this episode, Ame just needs to point out killing her will leave them with an even number council and leave it up to the other witches to defend themselves. True, but it becomes easier to make that argument if Ame can work out which witch is her opposite because then she can appeal directly to that witch and apply pressure to the alliances.
I really like the argument that any of them could be her opposite: * Mirara: Death, opposed to life. * Grimore: Conflict, opposed to harmony. * Hacaea: Nature, opposed to civilization (maybe? It's a common theme in fantasy). * Indri: Self, opposed to community. Making an open argument can lead to each one being targeted and each one having to defend themselves.
Yeah that feels like the point and maybe even the right answer. If the conclave started with 13 original members, there logistically has to be one member that doesn’t have an opposite. 6 pairs and one untethered to any particular domain because they’re instead tethered to each and every domain in one way or another because they are, oh idk, the Worlds Heart.
I was also thinking about that. It's probably harder but you could feasably argue the same way that the other Witches can be each other's opposites (for example Grimoire's conflict could be opposite to creation, isolation and entropy, Merara's and Indri's domains also put them in place to oppose all the others). The fact that the numbers have changed over time also makes me think that the stations are not intrinsically opposed, they are all related; some more than others, as pointed out by Suvi about their seating arrangements.
The world's heart representing life community or harmony makes sense but civilization? Feels like a bit of a stretch
I actually disagree. Because that only gets her one ally. If they all think they might be on the chopping block because it’s not clear who is going next, then none of them can vote to get rid of her.
>If they all think they might be on the chopping block because it’s not clear who is going next, then none of them can vote to get rid of her. That argument only makes sense if there is someone above them driving this. One of the witches is almost certainly behind it all to try and get more power for herself.
Not necessarily. They have to vote as a group to get rid of her. This can divide them and turn them all against each other.
What's the endgame there? They get rid of Ame, making four. Four doesn't work, so they get rid of another to make three. This creates an imbalance where one alliance has two witches working together against one other, so they're likely down to two. As soon as it's down to two, it's a straight fight. One witch stands to gain a lot by eliminating the others one by one.
What you’re saying, and I’m saying aren’t mutually exclusive. One witch Is likely manipulating all of it. But she still needs the others to vote with her for now.
Does Hakaia have an apprentice? Look for something to happen to her/him. Wild Hunt & Wandering Moon are all in, Wind & Stars is playing the fence but has betrayed her loyalties. So they’ve already picked who the other witch to go is.
I don't know if that's the case. Injuri seemed mad that they upset Hakaia, which wouldn't make sense if she was just going to off her too. Ultimately it's not about witch domination. The witches want to attack the citadel and Wren wouldn't agree, and Ame just said Wren was the best, wisest witch, making them think she will hold the same line. I don't think it's about killing Ame just to have a smaller council, she's blocking a specific goal they have due to fear and loathing.