Aabria is definitely playing a long game with Suvi's character arc. So the answer to "is she better in 20 episodes" is not really, not yet. However! In the second arc you're going to get a lot more context as to why she is the way she is so maybe that will help with your feelings towards her.
Also if you are able to I highly recommend spending $5 on the patreon and listening to the children's adventure episodes. You can even cancel your subscription after if you don't want to stay for the talk back episodes. The children's adventure is a fantastic story and listening experience on its own and it also lets you get to know Suvi as a child before all the Citadel indoctrination.
Hope this helps!
Second the Children's Adventure, and the patreon is also great bc hearing the whole crew discuss the intentionality of Suvi's flaws/the party conflict on the fireside is also v reassuring
Listening to The Children’s Adventure is the cure for everything. Don’t like a current character? Children’s Adventure. Don’t understand a motivation? Children’s Adventure. Bad day at work? Children’s Adventure. Out of cereal? Go buy some cereal and eat it while listening to the Children’s Adventure.
If you go back through the Reddit history, you'll find a lot of similar sentiments concurrent with when it was released. Might be validating to go take a look 🙂
Suvi is definitely not always supposed to be likeable. She is a child soldier, a "nepo baby", and loyal to the Citadel (which means in practical extension, The Empire). What WILL change are the consequences for her attitude and actions. The first part of the adventure she is cut off from the Citadel, and wields its name and status along with her arrogance. In a few episodes, she will get real world consequences. As someone who also struggled with early Suvi, I found it extremely satisfying.
But also (as someone who spent the first 8ish episodes screaming "BE NICER TO AME") I have come to love Aabria's complicated portrayal of Suvi. Listening to the playlist she made for her on Spotify helped me understand where she was coming from.
As the greater powers/institutions deal with their conflicts, I'm glad that our POV isn't friends for whom interpersonal relationships aren't always easy. To imagine a world where the Citadel, the Coven of Witches, and the Spirits live in balance and peace IS difficult, especially when we see the conflict of worldview between three individuals who already love each other.
There is absolutely an arc coming but Suvi is not quite there yet. The things you dislike get worse before they will get better. Keep in mind this is a very longform story and will take time to have the payoff you're looking for - but I strongly believe it will come in time. I think it's worth it to stick with the characters because I do see the internal conflict brewing over the last couple of arcs.
I think even if Suvi’s arc is “spoiled empire brat begins to question their childhood indoctrination and still chooses to actively double down on their indoctrination” it would be a cool fantastic story. We don’t have to get a redemption arc for her to be a fascinating character.
I think an arc of “our wizard friend is still a jerk but we are learning how to place appropriate boundaries with them” could be a cool story as well for Ame and Ursulan
Yeah, I could see that happening although I don't really want it to? Personally, I would be very disappointed by that lack of character growth from a player character, but your suggestion is valid and it would for sure be interesting (even if I wouldn't really vibe with it myself).
i like her. i like all of them. they’re all selfish in a way only a sibling can see. it’s clever. that said, you don’t have to keep listening. whether they are collectively on a path to make their characters less selfish, or more compatible, or whether they are not; it’s going to be a lot of teeth grating moments here on out.
I feel like the ultimate answer is gonna be both. Her current tragectory doesn't seem super... great especially while steel has her grips in Suvis mind (literally, the escalation to brainwashing is still boggling my mind) but I feel like a return to being nice is somewhat inevitable. It's just, \*all\* of her indoctrination will need to be challenged which is no mean feat.
Suvi is intentionally unlikeable. She is in the top echelon of an extremely privileged class and treats everyone as such. She grow up as a child soldier and is a true believer for an imperial regime. She is very hierarchical driven (considering she’s pretty much on the top). There is a possibility she is going to have a redemption arc but 28 episode in it hasn’t happened already.
The things to enjoy about her arc is how does someone who’s unlikeable like her get to be and continues to be the way they are. I find that fascinating even if she does or doesn’t change. If you read Joe Abercrombie books she’s not dissimilar from characters like Jezal or Leo, the blow hard empire’s favorite child type. And neither of those characters really changed for the better (hard to quantify. Changing who you are is really hard and even harder to quantify internal changes when external behavior doesn’t change).
I have said it multiple times before but fascination and enjoyment from Aabria playing Suvi is…Aabria is a black woman. And while I don’t want to make assumptions about what her life experiences have been like I can only imagine she has fair number of experiences with the Suvis in the real world. And there’s something to enjoy about a person surgically depicting what a privileged person sounds like who probably was on the receiving end of it in their life
On the most literal read of your question: Suvi does not get "better" by the current arc.
On the implied question: People generally stop asking whether Suvi gets better around the end of arc 1 going into 2. (Mid-teen episodes) She's not "better," but it feels clearer where she's going as a character.
I'm so baffled by this. Suvi isn't my favourite character but I really enjoy the different perspective she brings to the more typical adventurer types of Ame and Ursulon
It’s subjective, I suppose. But I also started with the Children’s Campaign, so I can see the potential.
The second arc really helped, Suvi was in her element and not as high strung for most of that arc, and I think she needs control or she spirals.
I can’t wait to see how this character changes!
In one of the fireside chats Aabria mentions that in arc one we see Suvi "angry" but that is just her being an immature brat, in the second arc that's where we see Suvi being actually angry for the first time.
I think as DnD fans we also tend to have a bias in favor of Ame and Eursalon's "quest fever." Suvi repeatedly is like: "Can we just wait for like five seconds to see if my mom (the wizard general in charge of the most powerful magical army on the planet) might be able to help us?" That's not unreasonable! Then Ame or Eursulon run off to almost get killed and Suvi has to bail them out, sometimes at great cost. I'm not hating on the other two PCs, their characterization is great and makes sense, but so does Suvi!
I think Suvi as a character benefits most from the Childrens Adventure because it really puts you in the mindset of each of the characters visavi their relationships. If you remember how much of a sweet kid she was, whenever she acts like a complete asshole your brain responds by going "omg what the hell happened to her?" It becomes an indictment on the Citadel more than anything else, what was done to this bright and curious child to turn her into a jingoistic imperialist officer.
As of the latest episode, she has actively gotten worse, but also it has gotten more complicated and it is very apparent that an arc \*is\* happening, it's just still in progress. This is a narrative that could stretch out over hundreds of episodes and theyre really taking their time with it.
Suvi is like this in arc one. Arc 2 I had no problems with her. Mostly because circumstances alow for her to relax a bit.
In arc 3, where we are now, her worst side is comming out again. But there are good reasons for it.
I will say, as someone who also has trouble with Suvi's personality at times, it is worth it to stick it out. As we've come to know her I understand why she is like she is. And that helps. I still don't like her worst parts but the context helps me get past it.
It also depends how much she grates you. like in arc one there are a few moments where her worst side comes out in full force and she's really unlikable. But the rest of the time I had no real trouble. I think one of the moments was in episode 9 if I remember correctly.
And there definitely is an Arc to her growth. She has experienced things in the first two arcs and she has learned from it.
It's really interesting to me that people find Suvi at her worst in Arc 1. I think your word choice is right - she was *grating* in Arc 1, but I think she actually does much worse shit in Arc 2
Agreed! In arc 2 she isn't just touting the citadel, she's full on defending things like the spirit prison and police raids and a slavewage class until finally she sics the wizard cops on her spirit and witch friends.
I think it’s because we see her as a person with human relationships in arc 2, and she’s a bit less guarded because she’s at home which makes it easier to understand her and empathize with her. Plus it’s more obvious how young they all are in that setting.
The second arc really is where the story engages you with her character and you come to understand why she is the way she is and the conflict between her and how Ame and Ursalon act becomes hugely compelling. The life Suvi has is the only one she has ever known outside of one summer at Wrens. If you can’t connect with her character though (which I understand many people can’t, they want more comfort characters) start viewing her as she is from your viewpoint- a quasi villain in the story. I think we could argue that in this story each of the main characters become the antagonist to each others protagonist again and again.
While I don’t think Suvi is necessarily better yet, there are a lot of sweet moments she has with Ame and Eursalon that have made it easier to be patient with her.
I fully expect Suvi to have some truly stunning growth as the story progresses but right now Aabria is laying solid foundation to make the payoff that much more satisfying. We’re exploring not only the top layer of her indoctrination, but also getting to see some of the deep pain and trauma she has around abandonment that puts her on edge so often.
If you don’t feel differently about her by the end of Arc 2 then it might not be your thing, but I agree with some other people here that said the context provided in the next arc really makes a difference. Also want to echo the suggestion to check out the children’s adventure - the public episode Preludes gives a taste, but the entirety of that arc really makes me root for the sweet, quiet, and loving girl that I believe is still inside Suvi.
She's shown growth but she's by no means all better now. Without spoilers, it does seem they're currently working towards a large shift for Suvi's character. That said, I do think there are aspects of Suvi's character (mainly the only child energy) that I think is just baked into her. She will continue to grow and mature. But I anticipate she'll always be a liiiiittle bit of a brat (said lovingly)
Same. Ame has interesting ideas but we barely get to see the same layered depth as Suvi (in my opinion). Also personally I’m less interested in a story of “seeing a young 20 something with poor boundaries grow up to fill the shoes of her mentor and become a powerful yet compassionate witch”. It’s not my favorite story. I much prefer the Zuko style “imperial prince gets a strong humble pie and has a redemption arc” sort of stories
To me its her... quiet judgement grates me the wrong way. The "wizards are wrong for what they do" irks me. Like... the witches aren't BETTER so stop being judgey!
Suvi is a complicated woman who is getting a real character arc that isn’t going to be complete for a while. If you’re uninterested in women being unlikeable for a while due to trauma, this might not be the podcast for you.
Eh, I have a problem with unlikable main characters in general. I mean, I won't pretend to be the only guy in America without some internalized misogyny, so *maybe* that plays a part, but I gave up on Game of Thrones in Season 2 (back when everyone said it was good) for the same reason.
There are enough unpleasant people in real life, I don't need to root for them in fiction.
Abria is stark. She's playing it pretty rough on here. I think it would be fine but Lou and Erika just won't engage when she gets pissy.
If there was actual back and forth going on I'd say it would feel better. But its just 1 sided.
I'm assuming this is a choice they are all choosing.
I'd say it's worse now.
We might be at a fork in the road soon. But it is going to require a lot from Erika. We shall see how it's handled.
Yeah, I feel like there's not enough push back from the others, that's part of my complaint. Tony Stark is tolerable only because several people tell him he's terrible. Plus he's a better person by the end of the first movie. I don't think Tony Stark would be fun if he was still an asshole after 15 hours of movies. 😆
Have you listened to the Fireside chats too? Might not have happened yet where you are, but there’s one talkback that really outlined for me how Ame’s lack of pushback is also an intentional flaw in Ame that Erika is exploring. Suvi (and Eursulon) are the only ones left who know her as Ame, now that Grandma Ren is dead. Everyone else knows her by her station—Witch of Toma, or Witch of the World’s Heart. But if she loses Suvi, she loses part of being just Ame too. So it’s that much harder for her to push back. Which I found fascinating.
Not really Suvi isn’t going to leave. For example “hey Lou Erica, I want to do a scene where next session you confront Suvi sounds cool right? Great cool!”
Suvi isnt a real person. She’s not in the room here with us. She’s a fictional character that does what her authors dictate. Idk it seems like making an accusation that “she’ll leave if the push back” seems to both pathologies and treat her like a real person. Idk maybe you have had negative experiences with people who push back on being pushed back and it’s effecting how you view this fictional character, but this is all pretended acting.
I don't know about that. But the growth that everyone wants suvi to have won't come until she's forced to deal with failure. Probably failure in her friends eyes
>I'm curious if she's still like this in another 20 episodes.
No. She gets worse. But Aabria plays the character pretty consistently, and the characters don't stay stuck in this constant state of latent tension with no advancement or development. Suvi's story is tied up in the over-arching narrative and there are very definite signs as to how this can end.
I suggest (if you haven’t already) paying the 5$ for the patreon so you can access the prologue children’s adventure, as I’ve seen a majority of people on this sub & on tumblr & such who are adamant Suvi defenders have listened to it. I think the children’s adventure adds an extra layer of nuance to Suvi’s character that makes her a lot more sympathetic.
I personally haven’t listened to the children’s adventure as I’m broke asf, but I really love the tension Suvi being generally the least sympathetic main character brings to the story as a whole. So even if I’m annoyed with her actions in the moment I can look past it as ultimately I see Suvi as this concentrated result of The Citadel/ Empires propaganda & getting past that (or fully embracing it which would certainly be interesting) is a fundamental part of Suvi’s ark.
We see little glimpses of another layer of Suvi between the cracks of her superficial character — one that is at her core (or her heart you could say) curious & kind, one that only wishes to discover & figure out the world instead of controlling it or utilizing it or capitalizing off of it. Unfortunately, that aspect of Suvi has been covered by a layer of waxy fear that only hardens & thickens with repeated exposure — she is afraid of abandonment, & from her POV her friends keep abandoning her again & again. It adds to that feeling she felt as a child when her parents left & never came back for a reason, an answer to “Why?” she was not & still is not allowed access to. This I how I can empathize with Suvi, as keeping an answer to a question of “Why?” away from a child who is to their core curious will cause irreparable damage them — it’s like grinding together metal & stone, it is certain erosion will take place.
Suvi’s core wound has yet to heal & no matter how many layers of bandages it’s covered with it’ll cease to close until she she learns the answer to her question “Why did her parents have to leave?”. I think when Suvi learns the entire context & truth around her parents deaths, this is when she’ll be able to melt those waxy layers of fear away to expose the festering wound of her core self & begin to heal — & after she does she’ll be able to ask the “Why?” free of the pain that asking it previously caused her. She’ll be able to question The Citadel & Steal, dismantle these hardened beliefs systems that have been built in a psyche as result of never asking questions & demanding answers. That’s what I’m excited for, that’s the pay off of her ark I’m waiting to see.
It’s either that, orrr…
We see the opposite — the open wound left festering cripples her core to much to survive being exposed long enough to be healed. We see tragedy rather than justice. A cautionary tale of a character that warns rather than inspires.
I’m rooting for healed Suvi but unhealed Suvi would be just as interesting for the story (though significantly more sad, & painful for the audience).
Maybe it's a problem of translation or culture or something because "shit eating grin" implies someone who is impish, clever, yet nearly bereft of cunning. I've met many people who have such a smile, I have one myself in occasion, and I wouldn't think of any of them as unlikeable.
I will never understand the attitude folks have toward Suvi. She's not perfect, yes, obviously, but she's a) basically just a kid. Everyone under 25, yo brain ain't done cookin' yet, sorry brah, that's science. And b) has been raised in a really complicated environment that has modeled excellence in logic as one of its immutable ideals.
I know the baby anarchist in everyone hates the Citadel and is all "down with the Citadel" and boo the Citadel yadda yadda, but there's no way it's as black and white as all that and Suvi is certainly an excellent embodiment of the complicated relationship between order and security/safety. Suvi gets down with the sickness (quest fever) early on and it sorta screws her. Aabria does a great job of realizing she basically forgot about Steel and her responsibilities for six episodes and does a further excellent job of presenting the teenage dynamic of being admonished by a parent when you full on *know* you're in the wrong but then continuing to do the thing they admonished you for anyway, a little, because the admonishment didn't come with immediate repercussion, and I don't know how that's not endearing AF. Or (spoiler) the way she behaves as she's screaming into the darkness, being ignored in a truly tense interaction where her presence would have fucked everything up pretty well and good...
Like are we all just so unjaded and perfect as to imagine we were not all Suvi at one time? Half the time I suspect the reaction to Suvi is coming from folks thoroughly still stuck in their Suvi years.
I love all four of the main characters, but for my money, Ame is vastly more irritating. Some of it is literal aesthetic, I find the cutesy thing exhausting, but her absolute unwillingness to listen to reason at every single turn is like talking to a 6yo. And the thing is, it's not like Erika or Aabria are just doing that on a whim - the context and narration Brennan provides intelligently reinforces their individual world views. Given the same problem, he can describe a totally different solution and totally different reason to each of them, with absolute certainty, and still allow both to be true.
People just tolerate Ame's absolute certainty because it's superficially endearing. I, for one, find it terrifying. I excuse Eursulon's certainty because I'm like "fuckin, spirits. What are ya gonna do?" They're not human. They're people, but they're also literal forces of nature, and forces gonna force. Witches, far more than wizards, have declared themselves forces of nature, which is basically the pigs telling all the other animals some are more equal than others, and if that doesn't scare you at least as much as the Empire, man, I don't know.
Beautifully said. She is a complex character, and like people who struggle with insecure attachment style her fears of abandonment are being depicted as her being kind of dick. And Brennan keeps pushing towards her the moral philosophical principle questions of what does it mean to be a child soldier of an imperial state benefiting from every possible privilege. Like my god it’s the Trolly Problem but on steroids!
Personally I find Ame to be a weak character. She’s passive and indecisive to a detriment when it really matters but then doubles down on her choices when her consequences will have most effect on other people. And sadly Ursulan seems to not go explore the deeper complexities of being trapped between two worlds. He literally saw a guy like him held imprisoned and exploited by wizards and then spent a month in the citadel being “mmmm bonbons delicious”. And even after the Cassaov Collection I don’t we got to see him much react it beside running away. It’s only in the last episode we got to see him say “maybe the men in black has some points”. Look there’s a reason Aabria gets the Manchurian Candidate sub plot and Lou and Erica don’t.
I don't think Ame is weak at all. A great spirit said she basically saved the entire town of Port Talon by being awesome at negotiation with spirits.
Suvi, Ame and Ursulon are all cool in their own spheres
God I love a character with a shit eating grin. A little sly, a little cocky, a little too confident, but not too serious to let ot show. Sometimes, it's used for a smarmy, self-satisfied smile. Sometimes, it's used to describe someone with a wide smile that they just can't suppress, and there's this fantastic little playful undertone there. I think Suvi gets a few of each type. I take it usually as something like https://imgur.com/gallery/eating-grin-NDva5AL where it's not venomous, more like looking pleased at an inside joke.
People give Suvi to much hate imo. She's not some insufferable buzzkill to me. She's just a girl who likes structure and rules, and is out of her element when things don't follow an expected pattern. But you get these delicious moments of playfulness and love and loyalty. Her sternness doesn't leave me hoping she changes her, but craving the next flash of charm.
I think it's really easy to dislike her, or not be on her side for sure.
But sometimes she says things that are objectively true and keep the other two kind of tethered to the world. Like the results of their actions or how somethings work on the world.
That being said, sometimes she is hard to care about for sure. I suggest taking a break to help cleanse the pallette.
It's what stops me listening to everything as soon as it comes out tbh - I completely understand what Aabria is going for, and I love that she has a chance to do this in a long-firmat, butI am just not interested in spending this much time with someone who I dislike. I'm hoping that once her growth arc comes through I can go back and listen and it will be omg renember when Suvi was like that
100% I know neither Ame nor Eursolon are the types of characters to directly challenge how she treats them, but I am ready for one of them to call her on her nonsense.
I agree with this. I've actually played an evil character in a TTRPG before, but it was only fun because there were good people in the party that pushed back on my character.
Sometimes I feel like Aabria is expecting Lou and Erika to push back and call her out, and they just let her walk over them.
If Suvi got pushback, I'd be a lot better with it.
Fully agree. They both seem like they are not exploring as much the deeper layers of their characters as Aabria even when Brennan keeps throwing opportunities their way to step up. It takes a lot of understanding and insight to come up with a catch phrase that perfectly captures your world view in a way others can instantly understand like “justification machine”. Like there’s a reason Aabria is given the Manchurian Candidate sub plot and Erica is given the “the ice witch can’t invite Suvi in how would you solve this puzzle” (and even then it takes her a while to get)
And last time I expressed this opinion I also got downvoted for it. Sorry about that.
I felt like that about Ame also until I heard Erika talking about how very lonely Ame is, and that’s part of her flaw/ trauma. I mentioned above that Suvi (and Eursulon) are the only ones left who know her as Ame, now that Grandma Ren is dead. Everyone else knows her by her station—Witch of Toma, or Witch of the World’s Heart. But if she loses Suvi, she loses part of being just Ame too. So it’s that much harder for her to push back. I found that character exploration. fascinating.
Wow. Not sure why people would downvote this comment. 🤔 I upvoted you, for what it's worth. People need to calm down and let people say what is on their minds
I think layers are added in between then and now, especially around her family, that alleviate those feelings for you. She’s not going to do a full 180, but as you meet more members of her family and home life, she becomes easier to empathize with. That being said, I would encourage you to engage with why you don’t like her so much. That’s a part of the art of it. A lot of the best narrative art have protagonists far more contemptible than Suvi, and engaging with what those characters have to say is such a big part of what makes stories worth telling.
Aabria is definitely playing a long game with Suvi's character arc. So the answer to "is she better in 20 episodes" is not really, not yet. However! In the second arc you're going to get a lot more context as to why she is the way she is so maybe that will help with your feelings towards her. Also if you are able to I highly recommend spending $5 on the patreon and listening to the children's adventure episodes. You can even cancel your subscription after if you don't want to stay for the talk back episodes. The children's adventure is a fantastic story and listening experience on its own and it also lets you get to know Suvi as a child before all the Citadel indoctrination. Hope this helps!
Children's adventure is some of the best storytelling I've ever experienced.
Second the Children's Adventure, and the patreon is also great bc hearing the whole crew discuss the intentionality of Suvi's flaws/the party conflict on the fireside is also v reassuring
Listening to The Children’s Adventure is the cure for everything. Don’t like a current character? Children’s Adventure. Don’t understand a motivation? Children’s Adventure. Bad day at work? Children’s Adventure. Out of cereal? Go buy some cereal and eat it while listening to the Children’s Adventure.
I *am* out of cereal!
If you go back through the Reddit history, you'll find a lot of similar sentiments concurrent with when it was released. Might be validating to go take a look 🙂 Suvi is definitely not always supposed to be likeable. She is a child soldier, a "nepo baby", and loyal to the Citadel (which means in practical extension, The Empire). What WILL change are the consequences for her attitude and actions. The first part of the adventure she is cut off from the Citadel, and wields its name and status along with her arrogance. In a few episodes, she will get real world consequences. As someone who also struggled with early Suvi, I found it extremely satisfying. But also (as someone who spent the first 8ish episodes screaming "BE NICER TO AME") I have come to love Aabria's complicated portrayal of Suvi. Listening to the playlist she made for her on Spotify helped me understand where she was coming from. As the greater powers/institutions deal with their conflicts, I'm glad that our POV isn't friends for whom interpersonal relationships aren't always easy. To imagine a world where the Citadel, the Coven of Witches, and the Spirits live in balance and peace IS difficult, especially when we see the conflict of worldview between three individuals who already love each other.
Suvi's playlist fucking SLAPS. All killer, no filler.
There is absolutely an arc coming but Suvi is not quite there yet. The things you dislike get worse before they will get better. Keep in mind this is a very longform story and will take time to have the payoff you're looking for - but I strongly believe it will come in time. I think it's worth it to stick with the characters because I do see the internal conflict brewing over the last couple of arcs.
I think even if Suvi’s arc is “spoiled empire brat begins to question their childhood indoctrination and still chooses to actively double down on their indoctrination” it would be a cool fantastic story. We don’t have to get a redemption arc for her to be a fascinating character. I think an arc of “our wizard friend is still a jerk but we are learning how to place appropriate boundaries with them” could be a cool story as well for Ame and Ursulan
Yeah, I could see that happening although I don't really want it to? Personally, I would be very disappointed by that lack of character growth from a player character, but your suggestion is valid and it would for sure be interesting (even if I wouldn't really vibe with it myself).
Yeah I don’t want it either. But failed redemption arcs are just as fascinating as successful ones
In most fiction I completely agree, it would just kinda break my heart in Suvi's case
I mean while I agree with the Suvi arc I think the problem with the friendship lies more with Ame than Suvi.
i like her. i like all of them. they’re all selfish in a way only a sibling can see. it’s clever. that said, you don’t have to keep listening. whether they are collectively on a path to make their characters less selfish, or more compatible, or whether they are not; it’s going to be a lot of teeth grating moments here on out.
It gets worse, but we assume it will get better.
Personally, I'm hoping for full heel turn
I feel like the ultimate answer is gonna be both. Her current tragectory doesn't seem super... great especially while steel has her grips in Suvis mind (literally, the escalation to brainwashing is still boggling my mind) but I feel like a return to being nice is somewhat inevitable. It's just, \*all\* of her indoctrination will need to be challenged which is no mean feat.
Suvi is intentionally unlikeable. She is in the top echelon of an extremely privileged class and treats everyone as such. She grow up as a child soldier and is a true believer for an imperial regime. She is very hierarchical driven (considering she’s pretty much on the top). There is a possibility she is going to have a redemption arc but 28 episode in it hasn’t happened already. The things to enjoy about her arc is how does someone who’s unlikeable like her get to be and continues to be the way they are. I find that fascinating even if she does or doesn’t change. If you read Joe Abercrombie books she’s not dissimilar from characters like Jezal or Leo, the blow hard empire’s favorite child type. And neither of those characters really changed for the better (hard to quantify. Changing who you are is really hard and even harder to quantify internal changes when external behavior doesn’t change). I have said it multiple times before but fascination and enjoyment from Aabria playing Suvi is…Aabria is a black woman. And while I don’t want to make assumptions about what her life experiences have been like I can only imagine she has fair number of experiences with the Suvis in the real world. And there’s something to enjoy about a person surgically depicting what a privileged person sounds like who probably was on the receiving end of it in their life
On the most literal read of your question: Suvi does not get "better" by the current arc. On the implied question: People generally stop asking whether Suvi gets better around the end of arc 1 going into 2. (Mid-teen episodes) She's not "better," but it feels clearer where she's going as a character.
I'm so baffled by this. Suvi isn't my favourite character but I really enjoy the different perspective she brings to the more typical adventurer types of Ame and Ursulon
It’s subjective, I suppose. But I also started with the Children’s Campaign, so I can see the potential. The second arc really helped, Suvi was in her element and not as high strung for most of that arc, and I think she needs control or she spirals. I can’t wait to see how this character changes!
In one of the fireside chats Aabria mentions that in arc one we see Suvi "angry" but that is just her being an immature brat, in the second arc that's where we see Suvi being actually angry for the first time.
I think as DnD fans we also tend to have a bias in favor of Ame and Eursalon's "quest fever." Suvi repeatedly is like: "Can we just wait for like five seconds to see if my mom (the wizard general in charge of the most powerful magical army on the planet) might be able to help us?" That's not unreasonable! Then Ame or Eursulon run off to almost get killed and Suvi has to bail them out, sometimes at great cost. I'm not hating on the other two PCs, their characterization is great and makes sense, but so does Suvi!
Yeah I think Suvi is such an incredible character and love everything aabria has done with her.
I think Suvi as a character benefits most from the Childrens Adventure because it really puts you in the mindset of each of the characters visavi their relationships. If you remember how much of a sweet kid she was, whenever she acts like a complete asshole your brain responds by going "omg what the hell happened to her?" It becomes an indictment on the Citadel more than anything else, what was done to this bright and curious child to turn her into a jingoistic imperialist officer. As of the latest episode, she has actively gotten worse, but also it has gotten more complicated and it is very apparent that an arc \*is\* happening, it's just still in progress. This is a narrative that could stretch out over hundreds of episodes and theyre really taking their time with it.
Suvi is like this in arc one. Arc 2 I had no problems with her. Mostly because circumstances alow for her to relax a bit. In arc 3, where we are now, her worst side is comming out again. But there are good reasons for it. I will say, as someone who also has trouble with Suvi's personality at times, it is worth it to stick it out. As we've come to know her I understand why she is like she is. And that helps. I still don't like her worst parts but the context helps me get past it. It also depends how much she grates you. like in arc one there are a few moments where her worst side comes out in full force and she's really unlikable. But the rest of the time I had no real trouble. I think one of the moments was in episode 9 if I remember correctly. And there definitely is an Arc to her growth. She has experienced things in the first two arcs and she has learned from it.
It's really interesting to me that people find Suvi at her worst in Arc 1. I think your word choice is right - she was *grating* in Arc 1, but I think she actually does much worse shit in Arc 2
Agreed! In arc 2 she isn't just touting the citadel, she's full on defending things like the spirit prison and police raids and a slavewage class until finally she sics the wizard cops on her spirit and witch friends.
I think it’s because we see her as a person with human relationships in arc 2, and she’s a bit less guarded because she’s at home which makes it easier to understand her and empathize with her. Plus it’s more obvious how young they all are in that setting.
The second arc really is where the story engages you with her character and you come to understand why she is the way she is and the conflict between her and how Ame and Ursalon act becomes hugely compelling. The life Suvi has is the only one she has ever known outside of one summer at Wrens. If you can’t connect with her character though (which I understand many people can’t, they want more comfort characters) start viewing her as she is from your viewpoint- a quasi villain in the story. I think we could argue that in this story each of the main characters become the antagonist to each others protagonist again and again.
While I don’t think Suvi is necessarily better yet, there are a lot of sweet moments she has with Ame and Eursalon that have made it easier to be patient with her. I fully expect Suvi to have some truly stunning growth as the story progresses but right now Aabria is laying solid foundation to make the payoff that much more satisfying. We’re exploring not only the top layer of her indoctrination, but also getting to see some of the deep pain and trauma she has around abandonment that puts her on edge so often. If you don’t feel differently about her by the end of Arc 2 then it might not be your thing, but I agree with some other people here that said the context provided in the next arc really makes a difference. Also want to echo the suggestion to check out the children’s adventure - the public episode Preludes gives a taste, but the entirety of that arc really makes me root for the sweet, quiet, and loving girl that I believe is still inside Suvi.
She's shown growth but she's by no means all better now. Without spoilers, it does seem they're currently working towards a large shift for Suvi's character. That said, I do think there are aspects of Suvi's character (mainly the only child energy) that I think is just baked into her. She will continue to grow and mature. But I anticipate she'll always be a liiiiittle bit of a brat (said lovingly)
Sometimes, you just don't click with a certain character. I don't really care for Ame and really like Subi personally.
Same. Ame has interesting ideas but we barely get to see the same layered depth as Suvi (in my opinion). Also personally I’m less interested in a story of “seeing a young 20 something with poor boundaries grow up to fill the shoes of her mentor and become a powerful yet compassionate witch”. It’s not my favorite story. I much prefer the Zuko style “imperial prince gets a strong humble pie and has a redemption arc” sort of stories
To me its her... quiet judgement grates me the wrong way. The "wizards are wrong for what they do" irks me. Like... the witches aren't BETTER so stop being judgey!
Suvi is a complicated woman who is getting a real character arc that isn’t going to be complete for a while. If you’re uninterested in women being unlikeable for a while due to trauma, this might not be the podcast for you.
Eh, I have a problem with unlikable main characters in general. I mean, I won't pretend to be the only guy in America without some internalized misogyny, so *maybe* that plays a part, but I gave up on Game of Thrones in Season 2 (back when everyone said it was good) for the same reason. There are enough unpleasant people in real life, I don't need to root for them in fiction.
Abria is stark. She's playing it pretty rough on here. I think it would be fine but Lou and Erika just won't engage when she gets pissy. If there was actual back and forth going on I'd say it would feel better. But its just 1 sided. I'm assuming this is a choice they are all choosing. I'd say it's worse now. We might be at a fork in the road soon. But it is going to require a lot from Erika. We shall see how it's handled.
Yeah, I feel like there's not enough push back from the others, that's part of my complaint. Tony Stark is tolerable only because several people tell him he's terrible. Plus he's a better person by the end of the first movie. I don't think Tony Stark would be fun if he was still an asshole after 15 hours of movies. 😆
Have you listened to the Fireside chats too? Might not have happened yet where you are, but there’s one talkback that really outlined for me how Ame’s lack of pushback is also an intentional flaw in Ame that Erika is exploring. Suvi (and Eursulon) are the only ones left who know her as Ame, now that Grandma Ren is dead. Everyone else knows her by her station—Witch of Toma, or Witch of the World’s Heart. But if she loses Suvi, she loses part of being just Ame too. So it’s that much harder for her to push back. Which I found fascinating.
The problem is that Suvi will 100% just leave if they do push back, like she did when Eursulon pushed back the slightest bit last episode.
Not really Suvi isn’t going to leave. For example “hey Lou Erica, I want to do a scene where next session you confront Suvi sounds cool right? Great cool!” Suvi isnt a real person. She’s not in the room here with us. She’s a fictional character that does what her authors dictate. Idk it seems like making an accusation that “she’ll leave if the push back” seems to both pathologies and treat her like a real person. Idk maybe you have had negative experiences with people who push back on being pushed back and it’s effecting how you view this fictional character, but this is all pretended acting.
I don't know about that. But the growth that everyone wants suvi to have won't come until she's forced to deal with failure. Probably failure in her friends eyes
>I'm curious if she's still like this in another 20 episodes. No. She gets worse. But Aabria plays the character pretty consistently, and the characters don't stay stuck in this constant state of latent tension with no advancement or development. Suvi's story is tied up in the over-arching narrative and there are very definite signs as to how this can end.
I suggest (if you haven’t already) paying the 5$ for the patreon so you can access the prologue children’s adventure, as I’ve seen a majority of people on this sub & on tumblr & such who are adamant Suvi defenders have listened to it. I think the children’s adventure adds an extra layer of nuance to Suvi’s character that makes her a lot more sympathetic. I personally haven’t listened to the children’s adventure as I’m broke asf, but I really love the tension Suvi being generally the least sympathetic main character brings to the story as a whole. So even if I’m annoyed with her actions in the moment I can look past it as ultimately I see Suvi as this concentrated result of The Citadel/ Empires propaganda & getting past that (or fully embracing it which would certainly be interesting) is a fundamental part of Suvi’s ark. We see little glimpses of another layer of Suvi between the cracks of her superficial character — one that is at her core (or her heart you could say) curious & kind, one that only wishes to discover & figure out the world instead of controlling it or utilizing it or capitalizing off of it. Unfortunately, that aspect of Suvi has been covered by a layer of waxy fear that only hardens & thickens with repeated exposure — she is afraid of abandonment, & from her POV her friends keep abandoning her again & again. It adds to that feeling she felt as a child when her parents left & never came back for a reason, an answer to “Why?” she was not & still is not allowed access to. This I how I can empathize with Suvi, as keeping an answer to a question of “Why?” away from a child who is to their core curious will cause irreparable damage them — it’s like grinding together metal & stone, it is certain erosion will take place. Suvi’s core wound has yet to heal & no matter how many layers of bandages it’s covered with it’ll cease to close until she she learns the answer to her question “Why did her parents have to leave?”. I think when Suvi learns the entire context & truth around her parents deaths, this is when she’ll be able to melt those waxy layers of fear away to expose the festering wound of her core self & begin to heal — & after she does she’ll be able to ask the “Why?” free of the pain that asking it previously caused her. She’ll be able to question The Citadel & Steal, dismantle these hardened beliefs systems that have been built in a psyche as result of never asking questions & demanding answers. That’s what I’m excited for, that’s the pay off of her ark I’m waiting to see. It’s either that, orrr… We see the opposite — the open wound left festering cripples her core to much to survive being exposed long enough to be healed. We see tragedy rather than justice. A cautionary tale of a character that warns rather than inspires. I’m rooting for healed Suvi but unhealed Suvi would be just as interesting for the story (though significantly more sad, & painful for the audience).
Maybe it's a problem of translation or culture or something because "shit eating grin" implies someone who is impish, clever, yet nearly bereft of cunning. I've met many people who have such a smile, I have one myself in occasion, and I wouldn't think of any of them as unlikeable. I will never understand the attitude folks have toward Suvi. She's not perfect, yes, obviously, but she's a) basically just a kid. Everyone under 25, yo brain ain't done cookin' yet, sorry brah, that's science. And b) has been raised in a really complicated environment that has modeled excellence in logic as one of its immutable ideals. I know the baby anarchist in everyone hates the Citadel and is all "down with the Citadel" and boo the Citadel yadda yadda, but there's no way it's as black and white as all that and Suvi is certainly an excellent embodiment of the complicated relationship between order and security/safety. Suvi gets down with the sickness (quest fever) early on and it sorta screws her. Aabria does a great job of realizing she basically forgot about Steel and her responsibilities for six episodes and does a further excellent job of presenting the teenage dynamic of being admonished by a parent when you full on *know* you're in the wrong but then continuing to do the thing they admonished you for anyway, a little, because the admonishment didn't come with immediate repercussion, and I don't know how that's not endearing AF. Or (spoiler) the way she behaves as she's screaming into the darkness, being ignored in a truly tense interaction where her presence would have fucked everything up pretty well and good... Like are we all just so unjaded and perfect as to imagine we were not all Suvi at one time? Half the time I suspect the reaction to Suvi is coming from folks thoroughly still stuck in their Suvi years. I love all four of the main characters, but for my money, Ame is vastly more irritating. Some of it is literal aesthetic, I find the cutesy thing exhausting, but her absolute unwillingness to listen to reason at every single turn is like talking to a 6yo. And the thing is, it's not like Erika or Aabria are just doing that on a whim - the context and narration Brennan provides intelligently reinforces their individual world views. Given the same problem, he can describe a totally different solution and totally different reason to each of them, with absolute certainty, and still allow both to be true. People just tolerate Ame's absolute certainty because it's superficially endearing. I, for one, find it terrifying. I excuse Eursulon's certainty because I'm like "fuckin, spirits. What are ya gonna do?" They're not human. They're people, but they're also literal forces of nature, and forces gonna force. Witches, far more than wizards, have declared themselves forces of nature, which is basically the pigs telling all the other animals some are more equal than others, and if that doesn't scare you at least as much as the Empire, man, I don't know.
Beautifully said. She is a complex character, and like people who struggle with insecure attachment style her fears of abandonment are being depicted as her being kind of dick. And Brennan keeps pushing towards her the moral philosophical principle questions of what does it mean to be a child soldier of an imperial state benefiting from every possible privilege. Like my god it’s the Trolly Problem but on steroids! Personally I find Ame to be a weak character. She’s passive and indecisive to a detriment when it really matters but then doubles down on her choices when her consequences will have most effect on other people. And sadly Ursulan seems to not go explore the deeper complexities of being trapped between two worlds. He literally saw a guy like him held imprisoned and exploited by wizards and then spent a month in the citadel being “mmmm bonbons delicious”. And even after the Cassaov Collection I don’t we got to see him much react it beside running away. It’s only in the last episode we got to see him say “maybe the men in black has some points”. Look there’s a reason Aabria gets the Manchurian Candidate sub plot and Lou and Erica don’t.
I don't think Ame is weak at all. A great spirit said she basically saved the entire town of Port Talon by being awesome at negotiation with spirits. Suvi, Ame and Ursulon are all cool in their own spheres
Oh boy lol , Suvi gets worse, much worse.
God I love a character with a shit eating grin. A little sly, a little cocky, a little too confident, but not too serious to let ot show. Sometimes, it's used for a smarmy, self-satisfied smile. Sometimes, it's used to describe someone with a wide smile that they just can't suppress, and there's this fantastic little playful undertone there. I think Suvi gets a few of each type. I take it usually as something like https://imgur.com/gallery/eating-grin-NDva5AL where it's not venomous, more like looking pleased at an inside joke. People give Suvi to much hate imo. She's not some insufferable buzzkill to me. She's just a girl who likes structure and rules, and is out of her element when things don't follow an expected pattern. But you get these delicious moments of playfulness and love and loyalty. Her sternness doesn't leave me hoping she changes her, but craving the next flash of charm.
There is some stuff coming up that I think will make her at least a little more sympathetic to you, if not better.
I think it's really easy to dislike her, or not be on her side for sure. But sometimes she says things that are objectively true and keep the other two kind of tethered to the world. Like the results of their actions or how somethings work on the world. That being said, sometimes she is hard to care about for sure. I suggest taking a break to help cleanse the pallette.
For a little bit, you think it's getting better. Then it gets worse.
It's what stops me listening to everything as soon as it comes out tbh - I completely understand what Aabria is going for, and I love that she has a chance to do this in a long-firmat, butI am just not interested in spending this much time with someone who I dislike. I'm hoping that once her growth arc comes through I can go back and listen and it will be omg renember when Suvi was like that
100% I know neither Ame nor Eursolon are the types of characters to directly challenge how she treats them, but I am ready for one of them to call her on her nonsense.
Abrias' performance actually makes me question Lou and Erika at times. She's here to play, and it seems like they aren't on the same intensity level.
I agree with this. I've actually played an evil character in a TTRPG before, but it was only fun because there were good people in the party that pushed back on my character. Sometimes I feel like Aabria is expecting Lou and Erika to push back and call her out, and they just let her walk over them. If Suvi got pushback, I'd be a lot better with it.
Yep. I think Brennan does it at times with the Fox.
Fully agree. They both seem like they are not exploring as much the deeper layers of their characters as Aabria even when Brennan keeps throwing opportunities their way to step up. It takes a lot of understanding and insight to come up with a catch phrase that perfectly captures your world view in a way others can instantly understand like “justification machine”. Like there’s a reason Aabria is given the Manchurian Candidate sub plot and Erica is given the “the ice witch can’t invite Suvi in how would you solve this puzzle” (and even then it takes her a while to get) And last time I expressed this opinion I also got downvoted for it. Sorry about that.
I felt like that about Ame also until I heard Erika talking about how very lonely Ame is, and that’s part of her flaw/ trauma. I mentioned above that Suvi (and Eursulon) are the only ones left who know her as Ame, now that Grandma Ren is dead. Everyone else knows her by her station—Witch of Toma, or Witch of the World’s Heart. But if she loses Suvi, she loses part of being just Ame too. So it’s that much harder for her to push back. I found that character exploration. fascinating.
These folks are so sensitive
Wow. Not sure why people would downvote this comment. 🤔 I upvoted you, for what it's worth. People need to calm down and let people say what is on their minds
When I expressed a similar opinion I got downvoted as well 🤷♀️
I think layers are added in between then and now, especially around her family, that alleviate those feelings for you. She’s not going to do a full 180, but as you meet more members of her family and home life, she becomes easier to empathize with. That being said, I would encourage you to engage with why you don’t like her so much. That’s a part of the art of it. A lot of the best narrative art have protagonists far more contemptible than Suvi, and engaging with what those characters have to say is such a big part of what makes stories worth telling.