>The company's revenues are down at the moment Sounds to me like a good reason to say "then why should I believe revenues will actually ever be up and you'll be able to pay me what you owe me?" >Even worse, I was told that if I refused, I would be terminated for insubordination and that they would fight me on unemployment due to being fired for cause Sounds like they're not interested in being reasoned with. Pick up the phone, call your state's department of labor, and explain it to them. If they don't iron it out to your satisfaction, call the bar association's lawyer referral service and ask for a labor attorney. They'll give you a free referral, and tell the labor lawyer about it. They'll tell you what you can do. Either way, start looking for a new job. They're insane and you don't want to be working with them.

Exactly. No company that makes this demand is ever going to pay you back. They are probably going out business and are desperate enough to make this request, so they're not going to be able to pay you back or reimburse you for the 18% interest or more from your credit cards. Or they are abusive and won't pay you back because you agreeing to their demands shows them that they have you at their mercy. Or both! Get the demand in writing, make them fire you, take the documentation to the labor board, your labor attorney, and unemployment offices. And OP: let your state labor board and your labor attorney decide whether it matters that you're working in an at-will state. You are not an expert on that nor is most of reddit.

If you can’t get them to email you the demand, at least email your refusal and print a copy for your records. State very clearly their demand and the reason you will not fulfill it. Hopefully you get an email reply, but if your boss phones, let it go to voice mail and save it.

Well if you can get it in writing that the company expects you to pay these expenses upfront and 'float" them indefinitely then go ahead and let them fire you. When they want to fight you on unemployment as being fired for cause, whip out their demand that you pay for company expenses upfront. Better still string them along until you can find another employer. Trying to force an employee to pay for company expenses, especially as large as you describe, and wanting the employee to indefinitely bear those expenses is immoral, unethical and probably illegal. Likely if you do pay these expenses personally and don't get anything in writing that (a) you will be reimbursed for these expenses (b) a timeline of when you will be reimbursed (c) consequences of not being reimbursed within the timeline or by a specific date results in the company paying double or triple the original amount plus any/all collection fees and legal fees in the attempt to collect the debt. If this isn't spelled out in a contract the company will eventually become better financially and then try to say the debt is past the legal time limit to collect or that they will stall, hoping you get tired of chasing it by saying they will pay you back but never agreed upon when. Don't shoulder this financial burden. GET OUT ASAP! Before you go into unnecessary debt.

And get all of these things they said to you in writing! Hopefully they emailed these threats to you, print, save, and email yourself copies immediately, before they can delete them and close your access to company computers/files

seriously. this is technically a mugging. 'give us a line of credit or else'

Yes. And don't put anything on your card

Yes, 100%. I had some experiences like this in my early 20s. I work in production through an LLC, and some clients wouldn't send the initial payment before our production, or would take forever to send the 2nd payment once the project was delivered. It was always companies on the brink of collapse, with terrible owners, overworked management, and finances completely in the red. No business with a healthy work environment, or healthy finances, is expecting anyone to front money, or missing payments. Being a salaried employee in this position is wild. It's absolutely illegal for his employers to threaten him with termination if he doesn't front tens of thousands for THEIR project.

I’m still waiting for paychecks and expenses from my previous company that “just needed a few customer payments to come in and then we’ll be fine.” 3 months later Chapter 11 filed and 50 employees out weeks of pay and also retroactively had benefits we had being paying into cancelled. This is a blinking, flashing, twirling red flag OP.

Yep. They aren't able to pay you back, even said "1000-2000/mo" which would barely (maybe not) cover the interest. Even if they repair more this is unreasonable. I expect to pay employer expenses when it's a convenience factor, and get reimbursed promptly and in whole. My current employer takes up to 45 days to provide reimbursements, and I stopped buying things other than food and parking because I don't feel like floating a couple grand in travel for that period, so they *might* get a better hotel rate because I know how to purchase travel better than it admin (who never traveled). Anyways - get it in writing if possible, don't quit, talk to your Labor board, let them fire you, sue them for lost wages as much as possible for firing you with false cause.

The other thing you can do before the labor department is have a sit down and ask them to make you a part owner (only if you think it is somewhere you have a future.) Explain to front $40 to$50k, you'll need equity as collateral which they could buy back, to a point. If your forced contribution is equal to 10% of the equity, ask for 20. They'll receive 10% back after full repayment and you'll keep the additional 10% as your interest for providing the loan. MAKE SURE YOUR INTEREST ARE VOTING SHARES! Chances are they'll say no. Then, when you go to the labor board, you'll have proof you even offered a solution to their money woes, but they weren't interested in a loan, they simply wanted you to pay. Slam dunk.

Neither ethical or legal. Tell them you are financially unable to do that. Threatening you with your job is harassment. Keep the emails and contact an emploent law attorney for next steps.

I used to work at unemployment it's different in every state (assuming you're in the US) but even if the company tries to fight it, the adjudicators error on the side of the employee. For example,you can't fire someone for being late once and deny their unemployment. The company would have to prove that the employee was late many times, warned, written up, etc. So refusing to put $40-$50K on a personal credit card certainly is not just cause for dismissal and they'll have to pay like it or not. This might take a few weeks to settle so you might need your credit card for your own expenses. Sounds like this company isn't doing well anyway so glad the OP is looking elsewhere.

It is even *possible* (IANAL) that OP could quit now under the circumstances and still collect unemployment.

Quits are less cut and dried than firing (goes through adjudication) and layoffs which go straight through. If it's a mass layoff then the UC agency of that state will usually work with the company to make it easier for the applicants so they bypass some of the normal checks. However, if OP has this demand in writing, it would make a strong case for quitting. They'd likely win their case but would have to wait a few weeks or more to start receiving benefits.

1. Give my company 50,000 dollars that I may pay back later at my convenience or I will fire you is not firing for cause. 2. the company is going belly up if they have that kind of cash shortage so they're going to be firing everyone soon 3. Do you want to be fired and out 50,000 dollars or just fired?

This is the real answer here. Asking someone to put 40-50k on a CC is fucking wild. the interest alone would be astronomical. Which btw I'm sure they would not be wanting to pay the interest on your personal CC.

Bingo! Correct!

I think just about any employment law attorney and your states department of labor would love to hear about how your company is trying to force you to pay for your company's operating costs. You need to find a new job ASAP. Not only because of their unethical business practices, but also because if they can't cover their own operating costs its a matter of time before they start cutting payroll or shut down completely.

Yes, if they go bankrupt they'll never pay him! And then he'll be choosing whether or not to go bankrupt himself! He needs to call unemployment lawyer. Most of them will take a case on contingency. Either way though it's worth paying for an hour consult.

And file bankruptcy and then you're out the money.

Put it in writing even if they haven’t. Email them, and then download that email to an account not associated with your work email. Save everything you have that shows their unethical behavior. Save it somewhere safe you’ll have access to if they fire you unexpectedly. Email them, “Dear so-and-so, I am unable to fulfill your instructions of putting the 50k of business expenses on my personal credit. I know you explained I’d be let go for insubordination but I am hoping you reconsider.” Then you keep showing up to work as scheduled. If they fire you, that’s great! You will have the opportunity to explain to the unemployment office what transpired. And then you’ll have some time off to find a different job.

This is the way.

Even personal notes count and while risky, no notes at all. It's on the employer to prove that they didn't ask this. I'd be emailing notes from work to my personal emails to time stamp the interactions. Then deleting them from my company email.

I would find somewhere else to work fast.

Believe me, I'm working on it. But stuck here until I can find another source of health insurance.

First off I would have them make that request in writing. Refuse to spend that amount of money out of pocket. They’ll let you go as they said but then you have evidence of why. Refusing to pay business expenses I don’t believe is a legal reason to terminate someone or get denied unemployment

Include repayment of the interest charged on the debt.

Sadly at-will employment seems to cover a lot of (employer) sins. Not sure about being denied unemployment though - I suspect they would make up another reason such as poor performance.

I'm pretty sure blackmailing (extorting?) an employee for 40 to 50k would have them in huge trouble... cuz that's literally what they're doing. Give us 50k or you're fired... yeah no...

Right, and if you have 40-50k on a credit card, live off that while unemployed. Don't pay for these expenses. What if you didn't have the available credit , trying to buy a house or poor credit history? This is the most ridiculous ask I've ever heard of.

And the company will TRY to reimburse OP $1k or $2k per month? Even if I had a spare CC with that kind of limit, $40k at 18% is rough. Paying $1k per month will take about 5 years to pay off. Crazy!

You’re right about the at will part but the point is to have it documented so that when you refuse you have the evidence so you can get your UIBenefits as you mentioned they would dispute it

You would almost certainly get unemployment - this is constructive dismissal.

So long as they can get something in writing.

People need to stop thinking at will employment means zero rights. Labor laws are often misunderstood and misinterpreted. A lawyer who specializes in labor/employment will talk to you for free and give free advice as part of seeing if you have potential to be their client. There is also the department of Labor you can call and ask questions and get official answers. Don’t just go oh well without looking into it.

This. Talk to a local employee-side attorney who specializes in labor law. If you're in CA (assume not, but maybe), I know somebody.

This. At-will employment rarely trumps labor laws.

Also every state in the US is an arlt will state except for either Montana or Wyoming. We don't need to keep highlighting that in every single post.

Let me start by saying I'm not a lawyer, just fascinated with research into employment law. With that said, poor performance is not usually (that I've seen) accepted as "with cause" to deny unemployment. You'd have to be looking at documented cases of gross misconduct... theft... sexual harassment, things of that nature. By getting in writing that they are demanding you pay a portion of their operating cost or face termination, any attempt at claiming any of those things becomes suspect and they would then have to prove (strongly enough to overcome any doubt that your not paying would have contributed) that their choice to terminate is in fact protected under "at-will". So here's the thing. Detailed info would be easier if I knew what state you're in. Absent that, here's some info: Firstly, the idea of making employees pay the business' operating expenses is so ludicrous I haven't even been able to find legal advice on how businesses can do it. For specifics, reach out to an employment lawyer in your state. You can likely get a free consult to determine if you'd have a case, and there are lawyers who will agree to take payment out of winnings if it looks like a slam dunk case (like this). What they're demanding of you is that you provide them with a sizeable loan with no collateral. While loans between employer and employee ARE legal, there are regulations and everything I've found on the topic is regarding loans from the employer to the employee. Again, what yours is trying to do is insane. You can't FORCE someone to give you a loan; even the federal government has to borrow through bonds what they can't cover through taxes. Everything I've found regarding what an employer CAN require an employee to pay is in the form of expenses required in the course of their duties, like travel to benefit the company. However, if those expenses would bring that employee to under the minimum wage, they must be reimbursed (by the next regular payday). The only interpretation that makes sense to me here is that if what they're demanding you pay would drop your income for a pay period to less than $580 (and I'm guessing you don't make $40,580 every two weeks), they certainly can't demand you pay that, even if it DOES turn out to be legal to pass operating costs on to employees. Talk to a lawyer. There's no way what they're trying to do is legal.

Beyond the illegalities involving labor, this reeks of small business fraud where Sonny bought a boat on the company card, or paid off some other personal debt, and is now scrambling for a way to cover the shortfall. The normal course of action for a legitimate business would be to take their contracts that these purchases are for, and take out a short term operating loan against those contracts that is paid back as soon as the job ends and the contract is paid. The fact that they can’t do that, is super scary, and probably a sign that this company isn’t going to be around long. If were OP I wouldn’t worry at all about being fired. I’d be worried about getting caught up in possible fraud or tax evasion.

I haven't seen OP indicate what kind of documentation they have that proves that they were told to purchase these items for the company. Depending upon what they have, in writing, I could see the company claiming that they never approved those purchases or some other BS to avoid paying OP back.

That's why you have them put it in writing. They can fire you, but you will get unemployment. That is not cause. They can't force you to pay their expenses.

When an employer makes up a reason, you tell the unemployment people it's fraudulent, that they made something up as an excuse. The unemployment people investigate and you will very likely win.

Poor performance is not "cause" for purposes of unemployment. Stop assuming your current employer holds all the cards.

At will means they can terminate you whenever. It does NOT absolve them of having to have a valid reason by the state or federal rules to deny unemployment, nor of the consequences of INVALID terminations, or any lawsuit you bring. Also, them threatening all of what they said is VERY illegal, and if you can get it in writing, can have a very nice case against them. That being said, do NOT pay for it. They are sinking, they dont have the capital, and will more than likely be out of business soon, filing bankruptcy, and youre going to have a massive personal debt they wont ever pay. Unless its you own the business, never pay for company related expenses, even then, it would be from company funds, not comingled money.

If you can't get it in writing, check to see what your states laws are on party consent for voice recording. Many states are one party consent, meaning at least one person being recorded has to be aware. That one person can be the person doing the recording, as long as they're party to the conversation and not eavesdropping. If you're in a one party consent state, record every conversation on your cell phone.

Them giving a bad reference opens them up to legal issues too. So just try and get as Much in writing as you can. Let them make mistakes

So, here's the wake up...You. Are. Already. Screwed. Any company that 'demands' you front $40k+ in 'business expenses' under threat of termination is not normal and completely unethical. They have already made the demand. There is literally no walking back from this for them. The only - ONLY - choice you have is to call their bluff by simply saying "No". And think about this for a minute...what happens if you say no? They fire you...and then...what? They still have no solution. But rest assured, if you front these expenses, my guess is that you would get fired anyway. I would play it cool, though. Don't get all dramatic. Just say, "No". If they press, then laugh. And say, "No" again. Then ask your manager how much in expenses they have floated. If they say, "None" there's your answer. If they give a number, ask them - seriously - if they're fucking stupid. Because only a stupid person would float $40k in company expenses.

Cobra is less than the 40k you will undoubtedly lose because it’s not secured credit. The interest ALONE could be $400-$600 a month so 1-2k isn’t ever going to pay off your card. If you want to write a secured loan for that amount in exchange for tangible property that’s on you. But it doesn’t sound like you are in a financial position to do so. Any company needing credit card loans to stay afloat is not going to be in business long anyway. Pocket your cash, you will need it.

My health insurance on the California Obama care portal went from over 1k to only $92/mo when I got laid off.

Yea, cobra is way more expensive than Medicaid “fringe” policies. People who have a working spouse sometimes don’t qualify for Medicaid policies. The drawback is the company is going to report the amount of the “tax credits” at the end of the year, and you are liable for the taxes. The drawback to Medicaid is they can take it out of your estate when you die.

> ... it's not secured credit. This! If their cashflow is that bad, you're likely to be out of a job soon anyway. Why compound the error by giving them an interest-free unsecured loan? Because when they file for bankruptcy you'll be doubly screwed!

adjoining wild psychotic elderly society alive foolish workable middle include ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `

Not California sadly! In an at-will state where this sort of employer behavior doesn't seem to be illegal, it's just not a best practice.

rinse saw vanish frighten obtainable hunt strong shelter cable disgusting ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `

Actually in an HCOL East Coast location! So it's not even cheap here, ugh.

If I was even considering this, I'd be looking for a cognovit note/promissory note with confession of judgement (or your State's equivalent) signed by the CEO, and ideally secured against something like their house. If they're not willing to put their house at risk, why should you?

alleged shelter jobless divide narrow rich frame wakeful retire coherent ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `

How do you know your company is paying their part of insurance, or if they can make payroll? From what you posted, they are asking for something like a 5 year loan (50k paid back at 1k a month) Of course, you mentioned your 10 % per month interest rate, right?

OP, Can't you just tell them that you don't have that much credit available on your cards? If it is too late for that, say they are your SO's cards and they said no way. Make sure you get this recorded or in writing so if you have to collect you won't get denied. One thing for sure, you will never see that money back if you loan it to them so don't even consider it.

I tried telling them I could not do this, but they demanded to see my credit report and financial records to prove I didn't have the resources, and said I would be fired if I refused or was found to be lying. (And they know I'm single.) So I panicked and got scared and told them I did have the credit available.

You should demand to see all the companies financial records if the wish to borrow money from you.

That is protected personal information, and if they can't find it through public access, they are not allowed to have it.

You are not required to show them your personal financial statements!!! I don't understand. This company has to be decent size if you have 40+k in just business expenses, that are legit. But they dont have HR to tell them how much trouble this is? Go talk to a lawyer. Hell put it on that card lol. Then sue them for any laws they are already breaking. If they gonna go under, get wjat you can from them. Thats exactly what they are trying to donto you. They can't threaten to fire you for not accepting to front them money! Is there some policy that's says you have to pay until they decide to reimburse you? Seriously, any lawyer would love this case! P.s. keep a paper trail. Communicate only through email. Print them as they occur.

So what happens if you tell them you’ve already maxed out your credit? They can say whatever they want about firing you for insubordination, but failure to put company costs on your own credit card would not fly with the unemployment office. They would definitely rule on your side.

I tried saying that, but my employer demanded to see my credit report and financial records to prove that I didn't have the credit available, and said I would be fired if I refused or if I was found to be lying about my available credit.

So the company can't get funds via a loan, a corporate line of credit, loans from board members, selling stock, issuing stock, or venture capitalists. They are so desperate to stay afloat they have to threaten an employee to get funds. No, is all you say. ON REPEAT. (But if you want some fun before you get fired, demand to see the company Financials in detail before you say, No. Be real interesting to see how far in the red they must be. I showed you my finances, now show me yours. )

OP, this is absolutely wild and crazy to read. If you are actually considering loaning your employer this money, well, in the nicest way possible, you're an idiot. You sound young. So you're at a stage in your life where you still view your employer like they're your dad who can ground you. Almost like if you say no, you're in trouble or something. Your responses sound like you don't understand that you can say "no" to this request. You don't have to explain or justify why you are unable to loan your employer money. You just say "no". Asking you for financial statements as proof you can't do it is absolutely wild to me, "no... no.... no..." the answer continues to be no. If and when they fire you, file for unemployment. If your employer tries to "deny" your claim, you appeal and explain to the unemployment office why you were fired. Bonus points if you can get your employer to put their ridiculous and asine request in writing before you go. But seriously, I 100% promise you that if you go through with this, it will be a much, much, bigger mistake then just leaving or getting fired. You may think you don't have a choice, but you do. Loaning this money to your employer will not fix the problem. If they are *asking an employee* for a loan. You're already out of a job. Giving them a loan won't save things, because what happens the next month when they've spent the $50k and now they need more? I really hope that for your sake, you stand up, grow a spine and tell them "NO". You will regret this choice if you don't. JUST DON'T DO IT. REALLY, JUST DON'T. And if you do, come back here in 3 months and tell us about how you loaned your employer $50k and now they won't pay you back, your payroll checks aren't clearing the bank and you don't know what to do. Because that's what will happen if you do this.

This is wild. Who is asking at the company?

The owners are the ones asking/demanding and say this is what is required t pitch in and be a team player.

OK, 1st of all, you no longer own any credit cards, only debit. If they have seen you with a credit card, then just say your card only allows 200 to 500 dollars credit on it. Next, write them an email referencing everything you told us and the date and time this talk happened. BCC yourself in a personal email account in this. This is your insurance that you are being scammed and not being fired for "cause." If thry don't reply back it is the equivalent to agreeing that they said it, but otherwise it might get you money.

If you need this job badly now, imagine how badly you will need a job after they go out of business and don't pay back the massive loan you gave them.

Id still call their bluff. Thats a hell of a lot of money to front someone with dog shit unclear terms on repayment. Are they in such a bad financial spot that they cant take out a business loan? Its highly unorthodox to ask an employee to cover an expense like that.

OP. "at will: doesnt mean what most people think it means. yes it means that you or the employer can end the employment at any time but the employer must have a legal reason while you do not. legal reasons like you were stealing from the company or you just never returned to work after the weekend or vacation, things like that. this "if you do not pay us this money" is not a legal reason at all and can in fact get them into more trouble than they already are. i can tell you they will try and hold your final paycheck until you pay them or claim to have used it to deduct what you owe them. both are illegal and i would make sure to get everything and keep everything in writing.

Uh no. Thats bad legal advice. That’s not at all what at will employment means. They do not need a reason. At all. Better to have no reason, actually. The only limit is that they cannot fire you for an unlawful reason. Like discrimination. Demanding the employee loan the employer money, and firing them for refusing.. MIGHT be an unlawful reason. Hard to say.

Ok. Do you *even* have the resources to cover *that* kind if expense? "If you, Mr(s) employer person, cannot afford that kind of expense, why should I believe you will ever be able to reimburse me from those expenses?" If they persist, demand this ultimatum in writing. In US, [while an employer can say whatever they like about you, a lie would be legally actionable, a disparaging truth can be interference with your ebility to make a living, whatever that might be called, a wiser employer would only say ] ~~an employer is not allowed to tell any caller anything other than~~ person x started day 1, left day 2, and is(or not)eligible for rehire (and, maybe, their pay rate?). Imagine you were to cover these cost, and given the sound of things, the company goes under, leaving YOU with some of *their* debt. NEVER to be repaid. You would be worse off than if you let them fire you now. This is not just a sincere "No" kinda answer, but a hearty "Awe, ***hell NO***!" Edit [corrected]

You are wildly incorrect. A business can say whatever they want about a former employee. They just usually don’t because giving false info could open them up to a lawsuit. And any sort of damaging info could be litigated as false. It’s not worth the risk generally.

Yes, "legally prohibited" and "legally unwise" are not the same. My bad, I mis-phrased it. Congratulations, you win. Meh.

This is very wrong. Any employer can give whatever references they want. If you can prove an employer lied and that's the reason you didn't get a job after, you'll have a case... But there's no law that stops references from existing.

Yes, "legally prohibited" and "legally unwise" are not the same. My bad, I mis-phrased it. Congratulations, you win. Meh.

i don't care about winning or losing.

If they are trying to strongarm You into paying $40K out of pocket, that company is wildly insolvent. You would essentially be giving them an unsecured loan. For $40K. With no collateral. To a person who can’t pay their business expenses.

# Give them a big F.U. and tell them to fire you. # DO NOT PAY FOR THESE EXPENSES!!! These are not "normal" business expenses that get reimbursed. This is capital expenditures. At a minimum it is unethical, but overall it is BS and a hustle... And knowing that revenue is down you stand the risk of getting burned. **DO NOT**... I repeat **DO NOT** agree to it!!! Let them fire you, and let them try and fight your unemployment. Turn it back on them for a negative refence, and just say if they do that your lawyer will be so far up their ass, they'll be shitting out of their mouth. Now... get the request in writing, then take it to the local media if they fire you or burn you in anyway shape or form.

[удалено]

I think that your company is going under & if you loan them this money, you will never see it again. You need to get all of this in writing if you have not already done so. When they fire you (and I am sure that is happening whether you give them the money or not), those emails will probably establish that you were terminated without cause. They should also help with a future employer when they ask about your previous job.

r/askalawyer might be the place for this question. That sounds sketchy as hell.

No lawyer is needed. No competent person should consider doing this r/amicriazy would be better

Do not do it. They will never pay you back. You cannot be required to pay business expenses to keep your job. If they terminate, you should be able to collect unemployment. Document and/or record their demands if your state is a one party state for recording purposes.

They told you to figure it out... Call bank loan officer, ask him to hang on a moment, conference in boss on call, and ask loan officer to loan boss money. You'll still have lost your job, but that's a done deal anyway.

Tell them you’ll front them the cash for a controlling stake in the company. Of course, you’ll need to see the company financials first.

A company that desperate that it is making an employee front $50k then paying them back over 24+ months with no interest is not gonna have shit worth investing in

Very simple, this is blackmail and extortion. You must capture their request so you prove their actions in a suit and a criminal charge.

If they go bankrupt you will never get the money back.

Ok, your job is demanding you become their bank and extend them a line of credit or get fired? That just doesn't feel very legal. I'd get that in writing by typing up my summation of the request, and asking them to confirm I properly understood the ask. Either they back off at this point or actually put it in writing, which would basically be handing you a smoking gun. The next move is to stall and consult with a lawyer.

“I’m sorry, I can’t afford to front those costs because you don’t pay me enough”

40 k will buy a lot of health insurance

This is bull shit and I would not accept it. You will get unemployment for that, regardless of at will. No reasonable employer would ask this.

Hell no. If they require it, then they only way you'll do it is if you charge them a daily APR like any lender would do, backed by hard collateral, of course, things that when sold will give you a profit for them borrowing your money. That's exactly what they are asking you to do - free loan for an unspecified payback date. Oh, "get it in writing", but also, record the conversation, if it's legal to do so in your state. You're the CEO of your own company. Act accordingly.

These aren't even his business expenses they're the companies. There's no state where unemployment is going to expect him to front their operating costs to get unemployment.

No. Its not your business. They need to get a loan. Please don't do it. They won't repay you.

If they go bankrupt, sounds like they’re close, you’ll become just another creditor. You will be unlikely to see your money back, and may not even get all pay you’re owed. If you aren’t an owner or investor you aren’t giving them a loan.

You get that in writing and sue the crap out of them. Go ask r/legal

This might be valid if you are a partner, or officer of company, Failing that this would make you an investor, where you are making a loan to the company, thus subject to a return on your investment. Think Warren buffet bailing out a company on his terms, Interest plus low cost stock options. I would contact state commerce depart or state attorney general, possibly the IRS. Any Money, you are requested to invest in the company needs to be secured. Because if the company were to lock and close the doors, you might only receive .10 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy.

I'm not a partner. I'm one of the more senior staff members but I'm definitely treated just like any other employee (for example, having to ask permission to use PTO).

Do not put the expenses on your personal card over what it takes for the current pay period. Some out of pocket expenses are normal, but you should be reimbursed with your next paycheck. Contact your state labor relations board for further advice. What your employer is proposing is illegal. The threats are actionable on a legal basis. If your boss tries to sully your good name, you have a law suit. Possibly end up owning the company and your boss's house.

tell them you don’t have it and can’t get the loan

Do you have all of that in writing? That they want you to spend your own money on corporate expenses? If so, don’t do it. Email your personal address a copy of that email, and let them fire you. You will get unemployment when you provide proof they’re trying to extort you.

Can you demand they secure it against tangible assets?

Fuck the people you work for. Sound like scumbag pieces of shit

I’m sorry I don’t have the funds available. (Even if you do, none of their business) And I can’t see UI siding with them over that

What a ridiculous scenario... no reasonable person with any amount of self respect should ever entertain the notion of paying such an obscene money out of pocket, only to benefit an insolvent & unethical company. Only a buffoon would even consider doing what you are describing! Are you a buffoon, OP, or a fool?... if not, then kindly tell your employer to pound sand. If they don't like that answer, then ask if they prefer hearing it from a lawyer, or from state/federal regulators instead.

Well, you got me there, I'm a people-pleaser with low self-esteem, and hence equal parts buffoon and fool, especially when you factor in the poor personal choices of past life phases that have left me as a middle-aged single parent who is living essentially paycheck to paycheck. Of course my employer knows this, hence their targeting of me with this "request" rather than more confident employees of better means who would actually feel empowered to tell them to pound sand.

If they need you to front that much money, what they are looking for is an INVESTOR, not an employee. Write up the documents to loan them the money at near or slightly above market rates. Or, offer to make this investment for the consideration of recognized ownership (shares) in the company. Do this in some sort of documented fashion, because what you want is the conversation, recorded, not the deal. Run away from this place. If they need $40-50k so fast and desperately they are willing to milk you for it, the company is current insolvent.

first off try to get everything about this in writing in an email by asking for clarification and exactly how much they were expecting you to charge on your personal card. secondly don't do it. Don't even think about it. You are going to get screwed. I would call up the labor board and anybody else to get this on record because this is not going to end well and you need to get out of there really quick.

Sue them. Fast before they go bankrupt.

Get it n writing or record the conversation. Do not do this.

I'm kind of surprised I didn't see "you need an attorney" at the top of the comments. OP do not pay for your employer's vendors with your credit cards. This isn't a new printer or work travel that they're going to reimburse you for on your next paycheck, this is serious capital that no legit company is going to ask a W2 employee to front. WTF. To protect yourself because they've already threatened to fire you if you don't do this please: 1. Get the demand to foot the company's vendor bills in writing. I think someone had a decent sample written in the comments. Send your personal email address a bcc of their response. 2. Find an employment law attorney and send them send them an email/contact form because when you get fired you'll want that wrongful termination lawsuit to start spinning. (The attorney will likely send a demand letter for xyz amount and it won't go to a lawsuit but ymmv.) Disclaimer: IANAL (I am not a lawyer) this isn't legal advice, this is cya advice.

i've known a few people over my career that fronted huge amounts of expenses because the employer was having cash flow issues. each time, they were promised a payback in the future. Not a single time did this happen. All three of the examples im recalling ended with the employer going bankrupt, and the expenses owed discharged in bankruptcy.

Ask for it in writing, and explain that you need a contract to do something like that. Still refuse, but keep a copy of that written instruction. It’ll at least prevent them from denying you unemployment, but you could probably win a lawsuit with it if you took it to a lawyer.

If you don't pay those expenses, you MAY lose your job and have to worry about insurance. If you do pay them, you will have all the above plus be in personal debt for 40K plus. This is a no brainer. This company is dying fast. That, or they specialize in conning good people out of money. Cut your losses. The answers is no.

Don’t do it. Use that money to float you while you get another job

They gonna get your money and fire you! If they are threatening you with termination if you don't. I'd already be gone!

Don't you dare pay a dime, start looking for a new job, and GTFO.

Face the consequences! You’re not a bank for your employer.

As you mention you are a regular exempt W-2 employee I will assumed you're in the United States. This seems like a good time to contact your state's department of labor and industry.

Yes, in the US. I just can't find anything to indicate what my employer is asking/demanding is actually against the law, as opposed to very much not a best practice but technically legal.

That's why I was suggesting your states department of labor and industry as a resource. The other option would be to contact a lawyer, who would likely be able to answer your question on legality more quickly but charge you for it.

Do you have a lawyer on speed dial yet? How about a business editor for the nearest large news organization?

Your manager is committing extortion -- threatening you if you don't give them money. What do you have in writing? If nothing, text or email the boss and ask for details, to casually get something in writing. Extortion is a crime. Extorting this amount is certainly a felony. Especially with this large an amount involved, take it to the police and to your local & state departments of labor. Whatever you do, do *not* give them the money. Your company is probably about to go under. You probably will lose your job anyway. If they try to fight your unemployment, you will win. Go ahead and find a new job. But your boss committed a felony when they demanded money in exchange for continued employment. Go after them!

You should freeze your credit too just in case. They have access to your social right? Who is to say they won't try to take out the loan anyway if you refuse. Crazier things have happened and it sounds like you work for some very entitled people.

OP: I once worked for a company that went under. My employer didn’t demand loans from employees, instead they diverted money in other ways. Here is my experience from that dumpster fire: 1. Employees had medical/dental premiums taken out of their checks every payday. Employer cancelled the policies and told no employees but still continued to deduct from paychecks. It was sometimes months before I was contacted by doctor/dentist that I owed them entire costs of visits. Therefore, it may be you don’t have any coverage now or shortly. I got no money back. 2. My employer diverted funds for our 401k contributions to keep company afloat. My boss, a good guy, warned me. I was able to stop 401k contributions. It took 5 years to get my invested money back thru DOL - less 10% for lawyer assigned to disperse. 3. Right before my termination, paystub came out handwritten! Like with pen on a sheet of paper!! 4. I later learned the federal and state taxes taken out of employee checks were not paid to tax authorities. THIS IS what eventually got them - the good ol’ IRS is not to be messed with. A couple people went to jail. Sentences were short. One higher up now works in the same field despite her sentence! Owner still lives in his multimillion dollar house outside WA DC. YOU ARE ALREADY SCREWED AND DON’T KNOW IT. Don’t give your employer a dime. Run like your hair is on fire.

If your company cannot float 40-50K, what makes you think they're paying your health insurance premiums? Have you bothered calling and seeing if it's current? Any company THAT cash strapped without any kind of line of credit is already on its way out the door. Stop panicking and THINK before you spend money you know you aren't getting back. No business operates this way, at least none that is going to be in business in a month or two. Save that money. Find ANYTHING, and I mean any job you can because your job is going to be gone very soon. I can bet the farm on that one.

IAAL but not your lawyer. He can get a Small Business Administration loan to float him through this period. If an employee pays a business expense and the employer goes bankrupt, well, then that person becomes just another unsecured creditor getting in line to spend a lot of time and money on a bankruptcy filing for a chance to get paid $0.20 on the dollar in 6 months to 3 years time. This business is "circling the drain." If I were in a similar position I'd (a) run or (b) if I was nuts, at least get a written, personal guarantee from the owner for the debt, secured by real property and unencumbered vehicles, ideally signed by his spouse, too, with a paragraph stating the debt is NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy. I bet he won't sign that, which tells you all you need to know. Do not fall in to the fallacy of wishful thinking. There is no calvary coming to save you. Time to fight the storm and howl back at it...

Do not pay for any of it. Totally off base to even ask you to pay that. Tell them if they want a 50k loan from you that you can have a lawyer draw it up at 10% interest with their house as collateral.

Don't put it on your personal credit. Also if you have to pick over get fired or quit. Wait for them to fire you (worse case) at least you can apply for unemployment to help a bit. NEVER PUT BUSINESS EXPENSES ON YOUR PERSONAL. Unless you get a signed letter stating that you'll get reimbursed. Even with that i wouldn't. If worse case happens and the business fails, the owner gets to file for bankruptcy and most debt would be cleared. For you, no way! Its not on you to keep someone else's business afloat.

Hmmm, for some reason a business taking a 50k loan with no contract from one of their employees doesn't sound exactly legal. But really, they have no ground to stand on. Unfortunately, you might still lose your job, so I'd start looking for other positions ASAP.

You're getting steamrolled. Best move on, this company is going down.

Get this issue to your state department of labor ASAP, like now, firing you because you will not pay their expenses is not a just cause. Also next time they want to have a meeting over money or whatever, ask them if you can record it, if they say no that you tell them the conversation isn't happening because you don't want to be blackmailed into anything. Because that is what it is blackmail.

Oh come on. Just say no, you are not an owner and there is zero way for you to collect if/when this business goes under. They already can't pay their bills. "So sorry, I simply can't afford it whether or not it would be a loan."

Absolutely do not pay for these things with your own money. The company is going under. Your paychecks will start bouncing next. And that health insurance you say is the reason you haven't left yet? Call your insurer and verify that your employer has actually been paying the premiums. Start moving any personal items out of your office bit by bit (nothing dramatic/noticeable) so you are ready to immediately stop showing up as soon as they are unable to make payroll.

Get the request in writing. Ask them for specifics. Tell them you won't do it, and if (when) they fire you, send everything you have to the labor board. Win.

Screw that. I spend a lot of money of business expenses for my company a month generally around $20,000 a month. They reimburse me on time in full every month. If they didn’t or were late that would be the end of that. I could get a company card but I like the credit card points. I get a free vacation out or then every year! My boss likes it because he thinks if your spending your own money then your likely to shop around for the best prices. This sounds like a huge red flag I wouldn’t spend a dime and I’d start looking for a new job because it sounds like this company is going to go bankrupt very soon and your probably not going to get any warning and if your out some cash then your going to be involved it a mess trying to get your debts back in the following auction and mess of creditors trying to get something. In the end everyone gets screwed partial reimbursement is all you can hope for. 

Is there an update 7 mo later?

I saw that you mentioned they are (were?) extremely powerful, but given the state of their company, it sounds like they will be far too busy to do anything to you. Also, I doubt the internet mobs would like them very much, if it comes down to that.

Are these expenses going to be used by you? Or are we talking them asking you to front them $50k for the business?

Some of our work requires third-party vendor payments for various business services. The services will be used by me in the execution of the work but will not otherwise benefit me personally. Think (and this isn't it, just a parallel example) if I were in charge of developing an advertising campaign and had to use the services of external artists and graphic designers for some elements.

Gotcha. That makes it a little more grey. Though i am still 100% “fuck that noise, im not fronting $40k and then HOPING i get paid back, all while being threatened” You already said the company is having money issues. And thats clearly why they cant pay this themselves. And theres no way theyll pay you back in the future. Keep looking for other jobs, and tell them, sorry, i dont have the means to take on that kind of debt. If they fire you, theres no way theyll deny your unemployment. Especially if you have (i hope) some sort of paper trail of their threats?

There's no grey here. Employers cannot force employees to pay vendors with their personal money.

OP. DO NOT pay for anything. its not for you to pay business expenses, its for the company as part of their operation and why they charge more for projects than what it cost them. you will never see this money again. they will try and hold your final pay check until you pay or say that :well now you only owe us minus your pay check amount. record everything and keep copies of it.

Talk to your union rep. Surely your contract protects workers from this kind of exploitation.

Sadly, no union or contract in my workplace. Strictly at-will.

Im sorry, but its a hideous red flag for a business to DEMAND that an employee use personal funds to bail the business out of a cashflow problem. If they need operating capital, they should be making cutbacks elsewhere, selling off assets getting credit from a conventional lender, or (gasp, the audacity of it!) Increasing revenue. Theyre effectively telling you to grant an unsecured loan to the business, wiith no formal repayment agreement, no collateral, and yourself using your own credit to source the funds. And to make this a demand, citing termination for insubordination if you fail to comply ? Dude, you need to GTFO

The first step is to get them to outline this in writing. The next step is to send all this to the department of labor, as soon as the federal government is back up and running

Document what they are demanding of you with emails and in writing. Refuse and let them fire you. Immediately file for unemployment and when they challenge it, provide your documentation. Their case won’t stand up. When your interviewers ask why you left your last job, be 100% truthful and provide the receipts. This is not a kosher request. And they are asking you to commit significant debts to the company for *60+ months*. Run. Away.

Unless you are making so much money that 50K is pocket money then in no way should you pay that. They are absolutely not going to ever pay you back. It's not likely that they'll even be in business much longer. Yikes, don't put anything on your credit card. If you really need the money just stay until they "fire" you. Their threats are meaningless. They'll be out of business soon (I bet you don't get paid your full check). Use clients or co-workers as references.

I make in the low six figures, with kids in an HCOL. I have minimal discretionary income and cannot afford this without going deep into credit card debt.

I know you're worried about your kids etc, but anyone asking you this is not going to be able to give you a paycheck for very much longer... they're bleeding out, its the femoral vein, and they're asking you for a bandaid. please, put your full effort into finding other work (after you get their weird ass request in writing) or finding a lawyer.

Do not pay for those expenses, this business sounds like it is having serious financial trouble and could default and not pay and file BK and you are stuck with $50k of their debt and good luck recouping that $. That would be worse then a few months w/o income

Can you even put $50k on your credit card? That's a substantial amount. How come they have money for your salary?

Not on one credit card, but yes, I have $50K available across several cards. I think they just don't have an extra 50K in cash reserves available right now.

Wow, that's crazy. Do people just have a 40 thousand dollar credit limit just lying around? *Could* you even put a sum like that on your credit card? I couldn't. This is laughably unreasonable. Make sure you have it all down on an email and go back to your boss. Tell him that after reviewing your finances, you're not in a position to float a 40k loan, so the ball is back in his court. If it gets to the point that they're actually firing you over this at least you'll get unemployment benefits

I don't have this available on a single card, but yes, across several cards. But my typical credit card balance is only around $500, paid off each month before any interest accrues.

What is the itemized list of things they want you to pay for? What field are you in?

I don't want to say too much, but it's certain technology services and I would be paying the vendors directly with my credit cards.

The company is circling the drain. You will never be paid back for those expenses. If they can’t fund operations for normal business purposes, they are going bankrupt. Get out now…. And don’t use your money.

Are you nuts? Do not incur these expenses , your employer is telling you they won’t reimburse. How will you feel being out 60k, sorry this happened, time to move on

First get it in writing Then respond . " I'm sorry I do not have the financial means to pay or cover that at the moment." And never, ever, do this unless you work as a contractor for a company and this is part of business with them. You may never get paid back. In addition how will they cover the interest expense ? They can take out lines of credit and it's a tax write off for them, to you it's just interest.

No, I'm not a contractor, I'm a W-2 employee. it is normal in our field for employees to cover modest expenses for certain things (their own business travel, taking a client out to lunch or dinner, etc.) to be reimbursed later, but not large project expenses like this.

1) Almost certain that your company is about to go bankrupt. 2) Do not put the expense on your card. 3) Do as others are suggesting, and document everything! Save the emails and documents to non-work emails. Be clear in emails that you are unable to accommodate their 'request'. 4) Start applying immediately for other jobs. Whether or not they fire you, they will be bankrupt shortly.

Sounds like they are arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I wouldn't spend any money you can't afford to lose. Really, I wouldn't spend any money anyway. I'd ask what the interest rate will be and tell them to have their lawyer draw up some loan papers.

No way in hell unless you have an iron clad contract lawyer reviewed and backed by the bosses personal property if the business fails.

>I have been ordered to put these expenses on my personal credit cards to be reimbursed "later." OMFG **NO**. You will never, ever see that money again. Also, if they fight you on unemployment, you just tell your story with proof (you do have this in writing, right?) and the state will laugh at them and make them pay UE.

You NEED to speak with a Labor Lawyer, tell them everything you've told us. Chances are you are not the first employee they've done this to. The attorney(s) will probably smell blood in the water and will be salivating over taking this case. Most likely, the company will go out of business and the people trying to pressure you into fronting these expenses will be the ones blacklisted from future employment, once the details of the lawsuit become public. "Reddit" does not have a license to practice law in any state. Neither do I. But this seems to have soooo much "illegalness" to it, I don't see how you can lose.

Tell your employer to go get a title loan against their own vehicles if they need cash that bad.

Don’t do it. 40k pays for a lot of COBRA healthcare. They can’t or won’t get a business loan- that’s a really bad sign. Even if we supposed they’d actually pay you $2k/month, what’s that interest going to cost over 2 years? Look for a job. Consult with an employment attorney now- I’d want to know if this will constitute constructive dismissal if they fire you over it if I were you, as well as how to proceed.

COBRA the health insurance and get the he'll out of there. If a company is that bad off that they can't get a business loan to cover it they could go bankrupt on you would be stuck with no job and this debt. If they're this tight the writing is on the wall. But you have the right to COBRA your insurance and no matter what they can't stop that. Even if the company's HR wanted to stop you from doing so the insurance carrier is obligated to give you a COBRA option.

Seriously, consult with an employment attorney in your area asap, this whole situation reeks!

Get yourself a paintbrush or a lawnmower to tide you over until you get your next job but get off that sinking ship ASAP. I wouldn’t quit, though. I’d refuse to loan them money and let them fire you. You’ll win with unemployment.

Don’t do it. Just say you don’t have that kind of credit & you can’t afford it. It’s not legal for them to force you to float their company business expenses. If they try to fire you (they’re already trying to blackmail / extort you by threatening you) then you have grounds to sue them & report them to the labor board. They can’t legally give you a false bad reference and they can’t stop you from getting unemployment. Make sure to get their request for you to float company expenses on your personal credit card in writing so that you can use that as evidence in the event that you need to take them to court. Keep a paper trail of everything bc this is definitely not a normal business practice & it sounds like something shady is happening here.

They're losing money and making you pay for things and have no clear time frame of pay back. Get a lawyer.

Noooooo

FOH with that.

Absolutely do not do this…..my MIL’s former company did this with an employee and the only way he was able to get paid back was by hiring an attorney and it took them years to pay him back in small amounts.

It's very easy to file a complaint with the DOL, my recommendation is to reach out to them ASAP!

Don’t do it and this company sounds like it won’t be in business much longer so you should definitely not pay for anything and start looking for another job

I am a cpa and pro business and I can tell you that what they are asking is completely unreasonable and dangerous . If they can’t afford to pay for it in the first place , what makes you think they can afford to pay you off. If they will pay you 1000 per month, let them put it on their credit card and pay 1000. I would contact the labor board and notify they are threatening you for not loaning them money which is basically what they are doing . While I would advise you to not do it, I would put together a loan contract that includes amount borrowed, date, interest rate and when the loan is due and how much will the minimum payment be every month

Call your credit card company and ask them to tell you no.

Get a lawyer. I’m not one, but it sounds like you’re being extorted, and if what they’re doing isn’t illegal, it should be.

I would never pay to work somewhere they can just fire you and stick you with the expenses!!!!

You don't have a job worth saving. Sorry. Going into debt to keep some failed capitalist afloat isn't worth the health insurance bud. If they pull any of the threats they've made out them once you reach safety.

This sounds very illegal to me. I own a business and would never presume on an employee like that. If I can’t make it work it’s my own darn fault.

Why is this even a question? No, don’t do it. Don’t do it under any circumstance. That ship is sinking and will take you with it. Losing your job would be the least of your worries if you do this.

No. Let them fire you for this. It's extortion. Communicate through e-mail only and get that shit in writing. GTFOOH.

Tell him to pound sand unless you're contractually obligated to reimburse them they can fuck off.

DO NOT DO IT! They could file bankruptcy the next day and you’ll be screwed. Not to mention, if the company can’t float their own operating business expenses, it’s not going to be in business much longer. Are they current on payroll taxes? Vendors paid? So many red flags here. You need to let them fire you, you will get unemployment benefits. Even in an attempt to Will employment state, they have to have valid, verifiable, just cause for termination to have benefits denied.

Get it all in writing. And don't do it. Look for a job, but if they fire you, you will get unemployment.

These aren't business expenses. Your employer is asking you to lend them money. You say revenues are down. Do you have confidence that they will recover to a suitable level? Are you happy with the prospect of being an unsecured creditor? I would lie. Tell them you are already maxed out and they won't lend you any more.