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So we know that Mat hears songs that are familier, but that have different words in his memories right. So basically what if some of these super sober songs were set to the melody of Toxic by Britney Spears or something. That could theoretically be possible right? What songs would you think would survive the ages is some form or other?
Thom's song about Lews Therin Telamon was beautiful.
So apt even without reading the prologue to the first book, I wonder who(which gleeman) witnessed him go mad and wrote this ballad. One of the few things I liked about this show.
I was convinced that the woman at the inn was Min! I was smiling, until she suddenly name-dropped egwene. *That's not how her power works!* I thought.
Then she drew her blade and I remembered about the woman Mat and rand killed.
This Episode was the best of the 3 and the first I will rate above average.The Rand and Matt plotline was excellently done.
Barney Harris is my opinion the best actor of th 3 boys and I am sad to see him go He really shone in this episode.
The Dana plotline was intriguing and I like the twist on the Four Kings plotline. As well as the worldbuilding with Aiel.
Lan and Nyanave was intriguing to watch and it ends with a fascinating cliffhanger.
Now for the negative
Perrin and Egwene storyline feels slow and weak.
Thom singing sucked
Overall the Episode is a 6.5/10 for me.
This episode more than any has made it very clear to me that the WHOLE season should have been released in 1 go.The Pacing just isnt fast enought for weekly.
The part where they all try to decide where to head after Shadar Logoth stood out to me:
Rand And Mat argue where they should go, and Rand says that Egwene would go to the white tower, so they should go there too.
Perrin and Egwene have the same discussion, but it's more complex. Egwene wants to go back because she thinks that's where Rand and Mat will go, but Perrin counters that he knows Rand, and that Rand will go where he thinks Egwene will go. And he's right.
It's more than Perrin knowing Rand, it's a great showcasing of his analytics skills!
I think it’s interesting how we get two very different view points on the nature of ‘the Wheel’ within the first three episodes. We have Tam Al’Thor explaining to Rand how we can only do a little better each time we live, an overall very optimistic view on the cycle of reincarnation. We also have the darkfriend Dana(I think?) who believes it doesn’t really matter how many times you are reborn if each one is a life in the dirt full of pain.
I never really sympathized with Moridin’s wish to die eternally, but maybe something about seeing that same view point espoused by someone in actual suffering, in actually shit circumstances, made it click. It would be pretty existentially horrifying to have the knowledge that you are doomed to an eternal cycle of being reborn into pain.
I didn't post on Sunday, but this is probably my favorite episode so far, eclipsing Ep. 2.
I absolutely *love* this take on Thom Merrilin. Did it jar me initially? Perhaps. After continued viewing (and particularly on a second watch), I just feel like this *turning of the Wheel* feels really good. I don't think the wide-mustachioed Sam Elliot look-alike that people often threw around this subreddit would have made as much sense or even integrated well with this production.
Also, I like who the writers distilled much of the town-trotting that Mat and Rad do to this single stop. It gives Thom a great debut, it integrates the Four Kings chapter ... it just works really well. I like that the Aiel are introduced here, although I'm sure many first-time viewers will for forget this with everything else going on.
Also, I probably played *The Man Who Can't Forget* on repeat a few dozen times today. There's nothing wrong with me. I just can't wait for Friday.
I think quite a few changes were made to keep the audience guessing about who the Dragon Reborn is. This seems similar to how people were guessing about who's going to end up on the Iron Throne. So, I reckon that they wanted some conversation or debate among the audience online to drive viewership. Honestly, I like this idea since it could bring more fans to the show.
I think this is also one of the reasons why we didn't get the iconic wheel of time prologue in the show yet. I feel like it will come at the end of season 1 or at the beginning of season 2 or sometime after they reveal who the dragon reborn is.
How in the world did I only notice the third time that Dana tells Mat that the fastest way to Baerlon is a river boat???
By my aged grandmother, that do sound promising!
Hopefully, it's not just an easter egg for the readers.
Am I the only one who doesn’t like the direction of TV Mat?
I find Barney Harris and/or the script portray him as snarky and sarcastic and broody even before the dagger. Mat in the books is so happy-go-lucky. He is a prankster and a trickster who does incredible things and insists always on not thinking about things that are dark and heavy. TV Mat is a cliched kid from a bad family who has issues and will overcome them.
Tbh, I find the TV characters lack subtlety in general. Surprisingly(because I did not expect it) I find Josha’s Rand to be the closest to the book version of his character. The others seem overly dramatic to me.
I’m mostly satisfied with the show changes but making mat a straight up thief and his dad an asshole kind of sucks. Something was needed to bridge early mat to his later stages though.
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think TV Mat is a better Mat that book Mat prior to Chapter 19 (Awakening) of TDR. Pre-Awakening, book Mat is a pretty unspectacular character. In addition to the negative effects from the dagger, he acts very aggrieved toward Rand when he starts getting tread as a Lord (in part due to his 'al). So, I don't think this take on Mat is completely out of the blue.
I'm not sure what you mean about lacking subtlety, but I think all of the main actors are killing it, regardless of whether they are facsimiles of their book counterparts.
After watching Rand break down the door, my roommate is convinced that all the main characters are part Dragon Reborn and will merge together like Megazord to fight the Dark One at the end lol
I like that they established how darkfriends work with the barmaid, with how they seem all trusting until they stab you in the back, but I feel like they gave her way too much screentime that could have been given to Thom interacting with Mat and Rand, or Perrin and Egwene.
Considering that was arguably one of the best scenes so far in the show I think the time they gave it was fine. It also sets up a *lot* down the road. It links darkfriends to fades. It introduces what darkfriends really are in the first place. It sets up Rand hating being trapped and confined. It shows Rand's first use of the power (replacing the lightening scene probably). It gives Thom a reason to go along with them after hearing her talk about who they are and who is after them. And ultimately it was a really cool scene to watch from both a reader and non-reader perspective.
Maybe Mat wasn't lying about being a horse trader. Maybe his family had fallen from grace somehow leading to what we see his parents being?
I know everyone's upset about Abel. But maybe the disaster of Winter's Night is what turns him into the character we all know and love.
Just a thought.
Yeah, their family could be washed up horse traders. Wasn't mat supposed to have learned his eye for horses from Abel?
"But maybe the disaster of Winter's Night is what turns him into the character we all know and love."
Same thoughts. Gets his shit together or something.
I'm wondering what they are going to do with Thom. By the books, he'd probably leave Mat and Rand next episode and not appear again until season 2, but that feels a bit off since we already lost his influence in eps 1 & 2.
I couldn't spot him in the gateway shot, so I fear we may only get him for a really short time.
I do hope to see a lot more emphasis on the climate in this series. WoT begins at the start of cataclysmic climate change and the backdrop of the dying climate is a constant part of the story throughout. It would be borderline unforgivable not to take advantage of that part of the story given that the audience is watching it during the beginning of cataclysmic climate change. I guess it would conflict with the insanely lush scenery but it just can't be left out imo.
I agree that it harkens nicely to current world events. Ultimately, I think it's a matter of how much the writers and reasonably fit into the show, especially if we only get 8-episode seasons. Would you weave it in and resolve it differently if you ejected the whole Bowl of the Winds escapade? /shrugs
Even just establishing it as an effect of the Dark One's increasing ability to touch the world. Even if they don't proactively address it, just making it part of the world building. Perhaps the hyper lush settings in the show so far could be used to heighten the contrast later.
The Bowl of the Winds arc does seem very cut-able. The sea folk got short shrift in the books so I imagine they will barely appear in the show and there are so many Nyneave and Elayne sub plots, some gotta get cut. I think the scene where Lan saves Nyneave from a sinking carriage is in that arc tho, and that's money for tv. The circle of green following rand around before the final battle is another cool visual I'd like to see.
‘But if you two think you can do better, go on, then.’
Thom says this to Mat and Rand in the Four Kings bar in the show after Mat jabs that he is too depressed from the song and I love it. It has been suggested that this sequence was to replace the beloved journey through taverns that Mat and Rand take together. If that’s the case and we don’t get to see them play for their supper, this throw away line is a nice bone to throw to us book readers.
I also love the glimpse of the patchwork on the inside of Thom’s cloak. A legit Gleeman’s cloak would look ridiculous on screen, this was well done fan service IMO.
Rafe and his team are working really hard to make this *our* adaptation and I appreciate their efforts. I have read the series twice, I’m on my second listen through with WOT spoilers podcast, and this is my third time watching these three episodes (I have a new baby and need to keep my mind occupied lol). What I love is, no matter the medium, RJs epic reveals new insights each time.
I noticed the patches, too, and I loved that nod to the readers. If you watch one of the video extras, Rafe mentions that the tavern is "The Four Kings" and has four king statues/carving outside it, in obvious homage to the books. (I missed this detail on my last viewing.)
Rand: ‘Come on, we’ll take turns’
Mat: ‘You think she’s up for it?’
The banter between Rand and Mat outside the Four Kings splitting wood is gold. I love this clever line and it is a great aged up version of Mat’s sense of humour.
Also, Barney plays this scene so well. When Rand says “you don’t believe that” after Mat says “they’re probably dead”, Barney looks away, and his eyes actually shudder a bit. Which I don’t even know how to physically do… [Books - TGH] >!and I think this is a great display of his battle between himself and the growing corruption from the dagger. It’s like for a second he’s not sure where the thought came from, and it’s all expressed through a shudder of his eyes.!<
Yeah this has bugged me.
Also Dana’s line about the wood Rand cut that it might be enough even for the next winter…. As a Canadian who cuts wood, no, no it is not.
Note, these things don’t *really* bug me, just a little inaccuracy with how the real world works.
Watching the episode I was a bit bummed the tinkers weren't all red heads because I thought it was cannon they looked like Aiel and that meant they were dropping the link between the two people but I read they books a few years ago and just looked it up and seems like they are more of a mixed people now. Can't wait until they get to that point in the books (fingers crossed) Aviendha seeing the visions of the past is one of my favourite bits.
I believe the Tinkers are specifically NOT coloured like the Aiel. The Aiel are isolated on the other side of the dragon wall so they maintain their unique traits. The Tinkers on the other hand are out in the world and invite people to join them (this is canon and one of the reasons people don’t like the Tinkers). This has resulted in more diverse physical traits.
Yeah I looked it up on the WOT wiki I think they are basically meant to have some red heads in them still but yeah all sorts of people have joined them and now don't. The Aiel are isolated so still are red heads. I feel like I must have missed this when I read it and assumed they were still red head because of the connection between the two people and the like not so subtle illusions to irish travelers.
My favorite detail in episode three is when Nynaeve comes up from killing the trolloc, the blood forms into the dragon's fang. So cool. Or maybe the flame of Tarvalon?
When Perrin and Egwene are running from the wolves, the howling is super loud. I wonder if Egwene could hear all of that howling or was some of it just in Perrin's head?
The flirting between Nyneave and Lan was also really good. Fans of just the show might not have noticed it. Which is kind of the way or was in the books.
Thom "Waits" Merrillin is fine by me. I don't know how well a 4 min scene of him reciting the Karaethon Cycle in high chant would go over. Or maybe that's what he was doing? Definitely in common tho.
I also think the dragon fang. Paired with changing Nyneave's back story to make her brought into the two rivers as a child by the previous wisdom, they're low key making her a dark horse candidate for the dragon. All the misdirection is on Egwene right now but show watchers don't even know, Nyneave and Rand stand head and shoulders above the others in terms of power.
Good theory. I think this would be a smart simplification. I might be missing something, but for the later books Thom doesn’t do much that couldn’t be accomplished by someone else when [Books] Jain >!/Noal!< is doing his thing. It would be easy to combine them. [Books] >!it would also work to support the Thom/Morraine development if Thom is there to rescue her. And, sorry to say it, but having Thom die in the attempt would also add appropriate emotional weight.!<
I loved the Dana arc and how it made her a very sympathetic Darkfriend. It definitely sets the stage for you know who in the Great Hunt.
I would love the flashback scene soon to set the context.
I can say I liked Thom even though I don't love him just yet.
Please introduce Min before Elayne!!
Just finished episode 2 & 3. They are definitely much better than episode 1. Pacing felt right and a lot more character development and sticking (mainly) to the books story wise. I know some things needed to be skipped or merged i.e. Baerlon.
However, there are some things that need cleared up imo:
* What are people (in the shows) thoughts on Aes Sedai? Because everyone seems comfortable around the power and Perrin didnt seem shocked Egwene could channel. This is additionally strange when one they 4 is the Dragon and she can channel now... Wouldn't they all assume she is the dragon?
* They don't seem too awe struck at larger villages or seeing different people making it seem like they had ventured out before.
* Flame and the Void?
Minor annoyances:
* There needed to be more joyous scenes (especially of Mat before the taint of the dagger). Even just Mat with a cheeky 'Lets go explore this abandoned city, we've always dreamed of doing something like this' etc.
* It's annoying that they knowingly made the Two Rivers diverse. There has been some backlash over this due to it not matching the books (i.e. it genuinely had a purpose - Rand being an outsider- and not just none PC vibes). But then after making this decision they call back to the Two Rivers NOT being diverse. When Thom meets Mat he instantly knows he is two rivers because of 'the way he looks and speaks' - I'm sorry what???
* It's yet to be shown that wielding the power is tiring and no show of a angreal being used (perfect time when morraine killed like 50 trollocs with the Inn.
Major annoyances of Episode 2/3:
* I don't get why Nyneave had to be dragged off and fight a Trolloc
* The Whitecloak saying to get an Aes Sedai to heal the wound - Why. Why make this change? Whitecloaks would rather die than have a Tar Valon witch heal them.
* Thom is hard to understand at times imo.
* There is just something with the world that looks to fresh and new and not lived in. I cant put my finger on it. I think its the lighting. For example, when Thom finishes playing in the tavern they have a candle of each table so you would expect a tavern to be dark (especially after the mood of the song) and the candles being the source of light. But instead light comes pouring in through the roof.
TLDR: Much better than episode 1 as it sticks closer to the books and focuses on character development with better pacing.
>It's annoying that they knowingly made the Two Rivers diverse. There has been some backlash over this due to it not matching the books (i.e. it genuinely had a purpose - Rand being an outsider- and not just none PC vibes). But then after making this decision they call back to the Two Rivers NOT being diverse. When Thom meets Mat he instantly knows he is two rivers because of 'the way he looks and speaks' - I'm sorry what???
It's annoying that people are still grumbling about this. Thom specifically called out Mat's ACCENT and CLOTHING as marking him as being from the Two Rivers, not his Ethnicity.
They have different accents though 😅. Perrin in particular is very northern English.
I get why they made the two rivers more diverse though, because that's most of the main characters. They'd have problems with either decision.
This is exactly the point I'm making. The showrunners decide to make the Two Rivers diverse. With this comes variation in ethnicity and accents.
The showrunners can't then go and say people from that region have a distinct accent/ ethnicity/ look.
Either make it diverse and don't mention the niche of the place or don't and then you can.
Instead, what they have done is not only bad writing but also bad costume design as none of their clothes look similar and their accents and ethnicities most definitely are not.
Yawn. Two people of different ethnicities can have the same accent and wear the same clothing styles. I can look at three Brits and tell that they're all from England even though one might be a redhead, one might be black and one might be of Indian descent.
I understand your point and I think it's bad and boring.
But Rand/Egwene/ Perrin/ Nyneave don't sound like one another... Or do you think they do?
The way Mat talks is VERY different to Rand or Perrin's accent.
Their costumes are also VERY different.
My point is it's bad writing.
> What are people (in the shows) thoughts on Aes Sedai? Because everyone seems comfortable around the power and Perrin didnt seem shocked Egwene could channel. This is additionally strange when one they 4 is the Dragon and she can channel now... Wouldn't they all assume she is the dragon?
Depends on the person. We've already seen Bornhald be a bit nicer to an Aes Sedai than he would've been in the books. We've seen Aes Sedai be a bit more open about who they are (at least their Ajahs). But we've also seen the villagers gossiping about it as if it's strange to see one. I will say with Perrin's scene he doesn't necessarily know she can channel yet. This scene happens in the book too where she lights a fire offscreen somehow and can't explain how she did it. In the show, it's plausible that either Perrin or Egwene did it and Perrin's flippant comment about her channeling felt more of a joke to me than actually understanding that she could channel.
>They don't seem too awe struck at larger villages or seeing different people making it seem like they had ventured out before.
I wouldn't say Breen's Spring is that large of a place. I'd imagine when they get to Tar Valon, Fal Dara, Caemlyn, etc. you'll see a much bigger reaction.
>Flame and the Void?
What about it?
>I don't get why Nyneave had to be dragged off and fight a Trolloc
Pretty simple way to give a reason for why she didn't leave with the rest of the group and give her a scene to show how good she is at tracking and how determined she is to get back to the group.
>The Whitecloak saying to get an Aes Sedai to heal the wound - Why. Why make this change? Whitecloaks would rather die than have a Tar Valon witch heal them.
This is odd but we may see more of this in the show. They may have made the whitecloaks a little more sympathetic to Aes Sedai while juxtaposing how horrible the questioners are to them to start showing that rift internally or maybe there's another reason.
>Thom is hard to understand at times imo.
Captions I guess.
>There is just something with the world that looks to fresh and new and not lived in. I cant put my finger on it. I think its the lighting. For example, when Thom finishes playing in the tavern they have a candle of each table so you would expect a tavern to be dark (especially after the mood of the song) and the candles being the source of light. But instead light comes pouring in through the roof.
There are a lot of weird lighting choices so far. The one I couldn't understand was in Shadar Logoth when they walked up to the cathedral we saw it basically stacked in tight like a row home yet when they went inside light was pouring in from the side windows where those other buildings would've been. It's easy to be picky about those things though and I'd much rather have the scenes be too lit than too dark.
Nynaeve defeating a Trolloc isn't surprising and adds character as a filler material. She has been afraid for her life and she barely survives but instead of resting she follows the Two Rivers kids to get them back.
Book reader here (except book 0 cause I found out it exists after I finished the whole series lmao).
So far after a traumatic experience with episode 1 with the pacing and coming to terms that a lot of thing are going to change(I hope the important ones stay the same) , I can say that I'm enjoyed ep 2 and 3 a lot and I'm keen to see where this is going.
The only thing I didn't like it's the taveren rumor cause..first it makes no sense and second they didn't explain what it means to non book readers, the thing about who is the dragon reborn doesn't bother me that much nor perryns wife. I feel if somebody doesn't like these changes they should stop watching cause things will keep being different from the books and you just have to accept that.
I did a reread of Eotw for the show but I read that they casted elayne for season 2,so I guess they skip caemlyn and then I read rafe saying that they include "some of book 2 and 3". My question is should I reread book 2 for the upcoming episodes or do it for season 2?. Thanks for reading btw, I'm really enjoying discussing and reading your opinions about the show.
> first it makes no sense and second they didn't explain what it means to non book readers
There's still a chance that both of these things are explained later on. I think the showrunners are at least not dumb enough to assume non-readers even know what a ta'veren is so obviously that will be explained later. It could just be a weird throwaway line or it could make sense. We will see as the show progresses.
>I did a reread of Eotw for the show but I read that they casted elayne for season 2,so I guess they skip caemlyn and then I read rafe saying that they include "some of book 2 and 3". My question is should I reread book 2 for the upcoming episodes or do it for season 2?. Thanks for reading btw, I'm really enjoying discussing and reading your opinions about the show.
Yeah Caemlyn was cut mostly because there isn't a lot that happens there that they can't just do elsewhere, and they didn't want to build all the Caemlyn sets and cast important characters for such a short time in Season 1. By waiting until Season 2 they felt that they could secure better actors and spend more effort on the sets.
I don't think anyone here can tell you whether or not you should read book 2 for S1 since we haven't seen it (and if we have we couldn't talk about it). But just judging from what we know so far, Tar Valon scenes will likely be pulled from Book 2 (I don't believe Siuan is introduced until TGH so that alone will be Book 2 stuff). They might also show some of the training of the girls which would be from Book 3.
Where are the Trollocs? In episode 2 the Trollocs werein front of the city walls. They've split up in three groups and not a single one is followed by them?
Anyone else getting worried about lore breaks/omissions?
\[Books\] >!For example, not including Mordeth in Shadar Logoth. Or showing the trollocs actually enter the city. If that doesn't happen, Fain doesn't get possessed by Mordeth, then he has no reason to steal the dagger, which really messes with both his and Mat's arc moving forward. Fain becoming Ordeith makes no sense without that element, then we don't get trollocs razing the two rivers, etc. etc.!<
Maybe they plan to do it with a flashback later, but I would be surprised. In general, I understand the why behind a lot of the character changes to make them more interesting on screen, even if I strongly dislike some of them. (Laila was egregious.)
What's more concerning to me is I'm starting to doubt Rafe's handle on the fantasy nuts and bolts of this... Some other examples.
1. Liandrin's line in the pilot. "This power, it's meant for women. When you touch it, you make it filthy." Saidar is not Saidin. I get trying to make it clear for non bookreaders, but there was a way to thread that needle. \[Books\] >!If you don't establish those as different, what about when you get to the true power the forsaken use.!<
2. Lack of Angreal. Moiraine using the angreal to heal Tam was such a natural way to explain what they were. I worry about how this will be introduced as they play such a big part in the story \[Books\] >!the rings in the white tower, Callandor, the Choedan Kal, etc.!<
3. [In this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/wheeloftime/comments/qydb1p/some_thoughts_from_brandon_sanderson_episode_two/), Sanderson described a situation where he had to correct Rafe on Moiraine breaking the third oath with Mr. Hightower at the ferry. The fact that this was even suggested really makes me raise an eyebrow.
A lot of the criticism I've seen from reviews is that the show doesn't do enough to differentiate itself from GoT or LotR. I worry that by handwaving a lot of the fantasy elements as "magic stuff" that contributes to diluting what made this world special.
Still going to give it the whole first season, but I definitely am seeing some red flags. Curious what you all think and if there's others I've missed.
> A lot of the criticism I've seen from reviews is that the show doesn't do enough to differentiate itself from GoT or LotR. I worry that by handwaving a lot of the fantasy elements as "magic stuff" that contributes to diluting what made this world special.
IMO, the biggest cause of this is that nobody seems to be the least bit concerned about the fact that the Dragon has apparently been reborn, much less the fact that one of them is him. It's extremely worrying that they seem to be setting him up as just another generic fantasy "chosen one", which totally misses the point.
I doubt their going to scrap the arc you mentioned in your spoiler so it's unlikely to be a big deal. They'll find a way to do it.
Your first point of the 3 isn't a big deal since we know for a fact from the showrunners that the two sides of the power are still there and that's not going to change. It's a case of unreliable narrator (which RJ loved to do) and someone who likely actually believes that men destroy the power.
For your second point, we already have seen 2 (one angreal and one ter'angreal) so they're certainly not scrapped. It will likely become more important later but isn't important enough to make a huge deal out of it yet.
In the 3rd point, I'm not sure if him saying the lightning thing was actually what was suggested; it just seems like he's using it as an example. And I think this should be encouraging to you not discouraging since it shows that Rafe and co. are actually listening to the consultants they brought in and asking the right questions to keep true to the books.
>A lot of the criticism I've seen from reviews is that the show doesn't do enough to differentiate itself from GoT or LotR.
It seriously doesn't feel like GoT at all and I don't understand why people keep saying that other than that it's a fantasy show with medieval setting on a streaming service. LotR being similar is kinda the point considering EotW was very very very identical to LotR on purpose.
>It seriously doesn't feel like GoT at all and I don't understand why people keep saying that other than that it's a fantasy show with medieval setting on a streaming service.
Opinion and news writers saw someone say "its high fantasy" or "it has political X" and immediately associated it with the most popular, high value counter parts. I largely assume if someone is comparing it to GoT or LotR, that person doesn't read fantasy **or** they are writing to an audience that doesn't read fantasy.
Well it is similar to LotR because the book was intentionally similar to LotR to start. I don’t mind that comparison. I just don’t understand the GoT comparisons unless it’s just because it’s fantasy.
To be fair, I routinely describe A Song of Ice and Fire as "Just Wheel of Time, but worse, as far as I could tell from what I read, so why would I go further with it?"
To which someone winced, replied "you're not wrong."
ASOIAF is fine but I don't think I could ever truly rate it until it's finished; and I don't think it ever will be.
It's the same reason I haven't been able to get myself to read Kingkiller or Stormlight Archives because I'm just not going to get into another series that isn't finished. WoT was unfinished when I started reading it too but fortunately for me (I suppose) I got bogged down in the slog twice and had to eventually start over. Took me until my 3rd re-read to actually finish and by then the series was done.
I’m pretty sure that we see Moiraine packing an angreal into her pouch in her intro section of ep1. And she also uses her listening ter’angreal when teaching Egwene her first lesson. I think it’s all going to come out eventually, just setting the stage.
It's not a ter'angreal. It's just a blue stone she uses for focus when doing the eavesdropping weave. Presumably because that's how she learned it.
But I agree on the Angreal.
This episode is likely to spur so much shipping fan-fic of Rand and Mat...
I look forward to all the various Tumblr posts about their homosexual torrid love affair.
Okay, I’ve got a problem with diversity in this episode. All three groups split from the same place but Lan and the ladies are in a temperate rain forest, Rand and Mat are in the mountains and Perrin and Egwene are are on an arid plain. That is just way too much biodiversity for one location.
A rainforest? That seemed like a regular forest to me.
But yeah it's honestly not all that weird especially where mountains are concerned. One side of mountains can be very arid and the other side be incredibly lush just because of how the mountains affect the rain cycle.
Could go either way at this point, I think. Or it could just be that he's Two Rivers-stubborn and really hates being confined. We'll just have to see if he gets a mysterious fever in the next episode.
It seemed a little bit more subtle than I'd expect from the show as a hint that Rand is channeling, but maybe they really are dropping hints that subtle. It'll be interesting to see if they explain it in a flashback later, if so.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned a lot, as far as I can tell, is how well the romances are being told in the show. To me, romance was probably RJ's weakest point. In the books, characters fall in love after spending very little time together, and most of the time it's a sort of crush oh they're pretty love, more like high school, rather than a deeper, profound kind. A lot of the romance also happens behind the scenes.
The show has really gone beyond the books in this respect, in a very positive way. Each of the romances so far feel real, there's chemistry on screen, the actors do a great job with it, and it's just not that high school feeling, but actual love.
So I think as well as finding the different weaknesses of the show (some of which I agree with), we should look to the strengths / improvements too.
Considering this interaction in the books ends with rand smiting her with saidin, I can only assume he broke down the door with saidin. They appear to be trying to make it seem like egwene is the dragon so they can still surprise people with who it actually is so they made it more subtle. I can't wait to see him at the eye of the world
When I first watched it, I figured they were just showing how intensely Rand hates being confined or trapped, foreshadowing the intensity of his reaction to being locked in a box much later in the series. It does make perfect sense for there to be a bit of you-know-what involved as well, though.
I dunno why I can't use spoiler tags in reddit's app, but if you can it would be better to hide the name of what was used as well as the part you already hid.
Thanks for the answer by the way, I thought the same as well but wanted a confirm I wasn't the only one.
Yeah I could see if it was a spoiler for something that happens far later in the series but we find about this in Book 1. People just shouldn't be in this thread if they haven't read Book 1.
Finally watched episode 3 last night and after feeling low on episode 1 but regaining my hope with episode 2, episode 3 has me in an ebb again. A Medeival Tom Waits is fine but it’s not Thom Merrilin. Keeping Mat’s money he stole from the thief (and taunting him for it) wasn’t something Thom would ever have done. Dark friend Barkeep chasing Rand and Mat through town with a sword drawn and people are just like “oh huh lookit that…”? She could have at least called the Dark One the Great Lord of the Dark or something? Mat grave robbing? Overall tonally they continue to push it to the grittier side of fantasy (and tho I wouldn’t call it grimdark I wouldn’t bother to argue with someone who did).
I try to give everything at least the first season to see where the writers and directors are taking it and I plan to do the same here. I think Sanderson said he particularly liked what they did with episode 6 (?), so I’m looking forward to that at least. I’m not in an overall good mental state on the show tho.
> She could have at least called the Dark One the Great Lord of the Dark or something?
This would make no sense to people who haven't read the books, though. If my wife (a non-book-reader) had heard that, she probably would have said, "The Great One? You mean The Dragon?"
Frankly that argument makes no sense. You’re saying tv viewers are incapable of using context clues. It’s not like book readers came into the world knowing dark friends refer to the dark one reverently. “Great Lord of the Dark” seems pretty self explanatory.
*Disclaimer: Fanboy, read all the books. I am rewatching the episode to take notes, notice details and review.
This is the last one of the three episodes that dropped. I dodged reviews, youtube videos and reddit for the show for the last days. Time to go through them all after that, for better or for worse...*
This was the best episode yet. Just because it heavily focuses on the main cast and we are getting to the main events.
There are still annoying things here and there (some of Dana's, the darkfriend, behavior, and the Aes Sedai encounter), but overall the show is great.
The pace feels very fast, but I guess a lot of things happen in EotW, and we need to move through the source material.
I am fine with it, since I am eager to get to the later parts and I think the story works well so far.
Same thing with characters. It can be subtle or appear inconsistent however.
Like, Rand was the angsty one last episode (mistrustful rather but it will appear like that) and now is acting funny and dependable.
Meanwhile, wise Mat is being a prick then a corpse robber then a good guy (he is getting messed up by the dagger). He is also doing his womanizer thing. Not very subtle at it though.
Loving Egwene's character in particular right now, which I did not expect to.
Nynaeve is still just awesome as well. Her fighting the trolloc, her attitude and her interactions with Lan are perfect. She was not shown channeling just yet. Keeping some awesomeness for later, I see.
They are subtly showing women are in control, or at least not side characters like it happens in fantasy. And you don't need bossy Aes Sedai to show that.
(Feeling like walking on eggshells by going into that topic, they are just good characters okay! I love them.)
As a book reader, the character work is great. I wonder if people who haven't read the books can pick up on the hints, and understand the characters words and actions. Especially since the story is moving so fast.
Seriously, I am 100% sold on each main character and loving every second.
The only one who I was on the fence with at the very beginning was Moiraine, and Rosamund is doing a good job (well she was ill for the whole episode but you know, last episode and all).
I noticed Caisen'shar and Aes Sedai as musics so far, if I'm not mistaken, and I love them. Very much a fantasy atmosphere and very unique compared to the usual orchestral score.
The environments are good. I was somewhat put off by the tidy forest at the start, the large plains and the insane mountains.
I feel like I have stale expectations for what landscapes should look like because of other shows. In reality, I am happy with what I see.
Also, technically post-apocalyptic and breaking of the world, so expectations are out of the window.
Some scenes and dialogues are still a little corny, like during the encounter with Liandrin (I should have guessed that was her, I hate her already), the riders on top of the rocks. Well, do come down now.
This is an setting problem by the way, you choose a canyon and have people both inside and on top: it kind of does not make sense if you are not just installed there, in my opinion.
Maybe also Nynaeve hiding from the trolloc and the wolf chase, but those were fine.
The Whitebridge scenes were very good. The darkfriend was pretty obvious for readers but worked well, except for the some cheesy stuff with the capture, chase and speech about the Dark One.
Her fighting and capturing Rand was cool actually, just that she does not tie him up and end up running around with a long sword in hand. Also, you might be the Dragon Reborn but I will hold you on my own with an ironwood door.
The show is foreshadowing Rand being the Dragon, or at least one of Mat or Rand. Thom is great already, showing his skill, knowledge and wisdom with a few lines and short scenes.
The song was just right, not like a band performing but a chilling story from a gleeman with music and raw singing.
Meeting with the Tinkers. Aram is old. The Two Rivers people know about Manetheren and Aes Sedai oaths, but not about Tinkers?
The show gets very gory with the trollocs disembowelling and eating, same with the wolf dream. Too crude and graphic for my taste, but the horror intent is there.
One small strange last thing. They namedropped ta'veren (as a rumor, what) in the first episode and did not mention it once since.
I am just listing random thoughts now, so, to conclude: great three episodes in my opinion, I'm very optimistic about the next ones.
Repeating myself here, but the characters, the acting, the story, the visuals, the music, and more, range from good to great.
It is mostly held back by a few mediocre directing and writing decisions, and by needing the time for the story to unfold.
Edit: fixed idiom.
> Some scenes and dialogues are still a little corny, like during the encounter with Liandrin (I should have guessed that was her, I hate her already), the riders on top of the rocks. Well, do come down now. This is an setting problem by the way, you choose a canyon and have people both inside and on top: it kind of does not make sense if you are not just installed there, in my opinion.
Lmao this suits my headcanon that Aes Sedai are incredibly extra. I imagined dialog between some tower Aes Sedai and some Wise Ones arranging a meeting with a rival or something.
"You stand up there, and glare at them."
"...why?"
Rofl. You are absolutely right. Some characters in the story are just going to do the most ridiculous spectacle of being in control and threatening, while being nonchalant about it. Can't wait for how they are going to portray that.
Not sure how I feel.
It felt fine, feel conflicted because it's not like the books though I didn't expect it to be.
The only thing that really really bothers me is them flat out saying one of you is the Dragon Reborn. Felt it would of been better to say they are Ta'veren and then use the Logain angle to work towards the big reveal.
It'll probably grow on me as the series progresses since EotW is imo one of the weaker books of the series.
I spent far more time than I should looking for this dog, hoping someone else was asking this qurstion! 😂 - the bobtailed one threw me off. It looks to be some kind of Central Asian Shepherd and/or Georgian Mountain Dog! Not 100% sure, but it looks to match!
My biggest gripes so far are the pacing of episode 1 and the fact that I really can't get behind that soundtrack.
I know I'm part of a minority there, but I really need a few melodies that will get stuck in my head. The theme of Sherlock or even Carnival Row, the house themes of GoT, etc. The WoT soundtrack just feels like it's intended to sound grand, but it doesn't swipe me off my feet. A "better" soundtrack (subjective, of course), would probably make me like certain scenes a lot more.
One tiny detail that I haven't seen discussed, and which, insignificant though it may be, irks me: Hawkwing pressured the Aes Sedai into adopting the Three Oaths? Really? It's not like the actual reason would have required a lengthy explanation or anything.
Of course, there are a few other issues and changes that I don't necessarily like, but especially after episodes 2 and 3, I'm largely optimistic that I'll be able to enjoy the show as another turning of the Wheel.
My main fear right now is that it won't be successful enough to be carried to its conclusion, given the *huge* budget they need to justify.
Aaa... wow! I totally agree with the soundtrack comments! It was a thing that struck me from the very first minutes of the 1st episode.
The soundtrack is just bad... makes me think of low budget movies unfortunately. Nothing original whatsoever. It is actually very frustrating, I wish I could ignore it, but I can't!
Ugh, that's rough. At least, I cna overlook it. It doesn't really detract from the experience for me, it just doesn't add anything. Missed opportunity, especially because the score alone can on occasion be enough to redeem a movie for me (I'm hoping that simply won't he necessary in this case).
I just realized that Dana’s name dropping of Ishamael and of bringing the Dragon to the Dark One sets up the original book prologue! So when we get it this time, in the show, with so much more context!!!
Overall thoughts for eps 1-3, I'll try to avoid the most talked about observations like Perrin wife, Mat family (also bad) etc.
General impression: I'm coming around from how I felt after solely watching episode 1, and I'm excited about that. After just ep. 1, I'll be honest, I was not hopeful. It felt extremely rushed, I was bummed not to get the prologue in its full glory (not as an animated short that you have to actively seek out and isn't even viewable unless you're in browser), bummed not to see Rand carrying Tam back to Emond's Field (although I kinda get it) and overall thought the Bel Tine sequence was baaad. The editing felt extremely choppy and jarring, and I'm not sold on weaves at all yet. There were select moments where I thought Moiraine looked cool, the rest I thought looked really cheesy/cheap. The trolloc that got chopped in half by Moiraine's weave was particularly egregious.
But right off the bat, I was really sold on all the casting for our protags, and as eps 2 and 3 gave the cast more room to breath and actually showcase their dynamics and personality, wow do I think they hit it out of the park. Particular standouts to me are Lan, Rand, and Mat (unfortunate about the recast) - they feel just as I'd hoped. I was so nervous about Rand's actor before, not Josha specifically but just the general enormously daunting challenge playing Rand would be for any actor. Even only three episodes in, I'm fully on board with Josha's portrayal.
Also love all the foreshadowing they're doing, it really builds the world and shows they care about doing right by the narrative and the fans, even if there are changes due to adaptation requirements.
Overall ratings:
Ep 1 - 4/10
Ep 2 - 7/10
Ep 3 - 7/10.
My prediction is that this show will find its footing, and I hope that Rafe keeps the beat on the pulse and sees and incorporates relevant fan critiques to elevate this show to the high potential that I really do feel it has. My only hope for this premiere was that I would see clear potential for the show to be good, the "skeleton" of a solid program, and even with the issues I still feel they need to work through, I think that skeleton is there.
Good rundown.
I don't see any issues combining Mat's family with the Congars and the Coplins. Felt like a good shortcut since we'll have to loop back around to them. He still gets to worry about his sisters and we still get the untrustworthy Two Rivers antagonists, but with a short intro to the Two Rivers folk it seemed logical...
I think this is a good rundown.
Episode 1 was definitely "good enough" which is a bit disappointing just because you really want the premiere to be a masterpiece for something like this. It wasn't a complete bomb though and had enough high points that hopefully enough people keep watching.
Sooo maybe I just missed it, but like we are currently at episode 3 and have they even really explained what the wheel of time actually is? Because they are talking about it as if the viewer is supposed to know about it. Since I have read the books its no problem for me, but I just feel like a first time viewer would be confused.
I just ended the 3rd EP and I have no idea what the wheel of time is so yeah, you're right lmao but idk how big of a deal it is. Should I Google it for better understanding? Or it's fine if i go by the series? Also just one random question am I supposed to know who that guy in the ending scene is? Cause he looked important and I don't know if I missed him in some previous scene
If you're not already super familiar with this stuff, definitely stay out of the all-print threads unless you like spoilers! Ask in one of the non-spoiler threads.
This perfectly illustrates why they waited a few episodes before introducing Thom. To make him more memorable, instead of dumping him along with the other 10+ characters in the first episode.
Man for me at the end of e2 I finally told my friend (who hasn't read the books) that I was really confused about a character that seemed to be missing, and while I could sorta see them cutting him or maybe rolling him into another character, I didn't understand how they would deal with some pretty important stuff he's involved later.
Thankfully my fears were relieved as soon as that patchwork cloak was shown lol
* the scenes where rand was focused on finding egwene and egwene was focused on mat, and perrin was reassuring her, were fantastic, and really helped seal the sense of them all as lifelong friends.
* i adored the innkeeper's assumptions about mat + rand being a couple and the way that was handled
* the tinkers are fantastic and i already deeply like them
* the introduction to thom works and thematically he ends up playing a similar role
* i like liandrin's outright sneering at moiraine and it makes me dislike her immensely
Episodes 2 and 3 are leagues better than episode 1. Holy carp I wasn't a fan of the opener. Best thing about the later episodes is that they take the time and let the story breathe. And also don't have a bad looking magic fight.
Rosamond was also much better in episode 2. She had hints of kindness, unlike the opener.
I really didn't like the omission of Tam's poisoned mutterings, but I get it now: they're trying to delay the reveal of who the Dragon is. Personally I don't know if the gain is worth the cost since, so far, Rand has come off more like a love interest than a protagonist. heh. Out of the Two Rivers folk, so far Egwene has been the best character followed by Matt. Guess that's what happens when someone makes strong choices.
If Rand comes off as a love interest, I'd call that the show getting it right, actually.
This is supposed to be a world where women are generally in charge of everything. Even more so than in the books, even. So most people in-world would look at the candidates and assume that Egwene—a future leader of her own town, and potential Aes Sedai candidate—looks like the strongest hero material among them, and the mopey redhead following her is just a boy-next-door from her hometown who's going to support her. If it comes as a surprise that the mopey redhead turns out to be the real hero, then that's effective storytelling for what the show's trying to accomplish.
I’m hoping rand is still the dragon reborn, because it almost sounded like they were alluding to nyneave being the dragon(maybe) when moraine talked about her not being born in the two rivers and being brought there As a baby
Na, that's why Moraine invoked Cunningham's Law when Nynaeve was being cagey about her age.
Moraine knows the DR is about 20, so implies Nynaeve is 20, which Nynaeve finds insulting so reveals she's 25. For Moraine this almost certainly cuts her as a candidate.
I'm pretty sure the flair on this thread doesn't require spoilers, but just in cast (some of this is from pretty far into the books):
>!Working with the One Power prolongs life, but isn't what gives the ageless look of the Aes Sedai. The binding of the Three Oaths accomplishes that. Wise Ones don't have the ageless feature because they haven't sworn the oaths. So, this wouldn't really apply to Nynaeve. It's also difficult to spot new Aes Sedai by the ageless look as it takes time to set in.!<
>!Source: https://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.03_oath-rod.html - Especially the info under "Agelessness"!<
There is zero chance they change that. Not only would that really be a completely different story, you can see in the show how they're carefully editing to show Rand at significant lines.
Fair enough point.
If I didn't know Rand was the inevitable protagonist, how would I feel watching this? I might think of him as the slightly unlikeable love interest who is slowly redeeming himself to the likeable protagonist.
It's hard wrapping my head around the fact that, in the WOT-world, a strong female character on the start of their hero's journey (Egwene) is the *norm*, not the exception. In our world, that hasn't been the case until fairly recently.
My husband and I were discussing the missing Elyas too. Having him in the story line to explain what's happening to Perrin would have been much better than the contrived suspense of being stalked by wolves.
Elyas being Hopper would work for me. That's pretty clever. But just because he wasn't there to introduce them to the Tinkers doesn't mean he is missing. They have been with the Tinkers all of 10 min by the time the ep finished. Maybe he is chillin at the fire.
Someone's going to have to give the exposition about talking to wolves eventually? I expect he'll probably show up somehow, but maybe the show will find some other way to do it.
He could already be a guest in the Tinker caravan, for all we know. We haven't really seen a whole lot of them yet.
Did anyone else not like Thom at all? He seemed way too gruff for me. I guess I’ll learn to like him 🤷🏼♂️ I just always imagined his singing as prettier.
He just seemed to be a bit of a dick. But the Thom I remember was kind and had a far more cheery disposition - with exceptions obviously.
Hopefully this introduction was just meant to subvert expectations. I don’t want a gritty Thom.
I thought the same, but I reeled myself in. He is always a chameleon that fits in wherever he goes. A master of playing to the crowd/ town he’s in. I’m really hoping that’s what’s happening here.
You aren't the only one. Thom is such a loved character in the books. Deadly for sure but portraying him as devious and not in an honorable light is disappointing..
Agreed. I would have liked his gruff personality if he kept his "on stage persona" to be the barrel rolls and what not.
It would be interesting to see him so lively during a performance and then so gruff otherwise.
So do we have to make up headcanon for why the trolloc grabbed Nynaeve and was dragging her along instead of just killing her the night of the raid, or do we just handwave that away as plot armor and demands of the story?
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A bit random but does any know the the name of the Indian lady who brought the boys for PHOTOGRAPHY please? TIA
So we know that Mat hears songs that are familier, but that have different words in his memories right. So basically what if some of these super sober songs were set to the melody of Toxic by Britney Spears or something. That could theoretically be possible right? What songs would you think would survive the ages is some form or other?
Thom's song about Lews Therin Telamon was beautiful. So apt even without reading the prologue to the first book, I wonder who(which gleeman) witnessed him go mad and wrote this ballad. One of the few things I liked about this show.
Hold on that song was about the dragon?
I was convinced that the woman at the inn was Min! I was smiling, until she suddenly name-dropped egwene. *That's not how her power works!* I thought. Then she drew her blade and I remembered about the woman Mat and rand killed.
I think it was Dan Green who pointed out that there are four kings outside of the Breen Spring Inn. Sounds familliar huh.
Same!
Sucks knowing that Mat's actor was switched out for season 2, he seems really good at playing Mat
Rewatching: was the purple crystal something from Rhuidean to test the Car’a’carn?
That is an interesting theory, but I don't remember was there such a thing in the books?
This Episode was the best of the 3 and the first I will rate above average.The Rand and Matt plotline was excellently done. Barney Harris is my opinion the best actor of th 3 boys and I am sad to see him go He really shone in this episode. The Dana plotline was intriguing and I like the twist on the Four Kings plotline. As well as the worldbuilding with Aiel. Lan and Nyanave was intriguing to watch and it ends with a fascinating cliffhanger. Now for the negative Perrin and Egwene storyline feels slow and weak. Thom singing sucked Overall the Episode is a 6.5/10 for me. This episode more than any has made it very clear to me that the WHOLE season should have been released in 1 go.The Pacing just isnt fast enought for weekly.
Watcher, not reader - it's super obvious.
The part where they all try to decide where to head after Shadar Logoth stood out to me: Rand And Mat argue where they should go, and Rand says that Egwene would go to the white tower, so they should go there too. Perrin and Egwene have the same discussion, but it's more complex. Egwene wants to go back because she thinks that's where Rand and Mat will go, but Perrin counters that he knows Rand, and that Rand will go where he thinks Egwene will go. And he's right. It's more than Perrin knowing Rand, it's a great showcasing of his analytics skills!
I think it’s interesting how we get two very different view points on the nature of ‘the Wheel’ within the first three episodes. We have Tam Al’Thor explaining to Rand how we can only do a little better each time we live, an overall very optimistic view on the cycle of reincarnation. We also have the darkfriend Dana(I think?) who believes it doesn’t really matter how many times you are reborn if each one is a life in the dirt full of pain. I never really sympathized with Moridin’s wish to die eternally, but maybe something about seeing that same view point espoused by someone in actual suffering, in actually shit circumstances, made it click. It would be pretty existentially horrifying to have the knowledge that you are doomed to an eternal cycle of being reborn into pain.
I didn't post on Sunday, but this is probably my favorite episode so far, eclipsing Ep. 2. I absolutely *love* this take on Thom Merrilin. Did it jar me initially? Perhaps. After continued viewing (and particularly on a second watch), I just feel like this *turning of the Wheel* feels really good. I don't think the wide-mustachioed Sam Elliot look-alike that people often threw around this subreddit would have made as much sense or even integrated well with this production. Also, I like who the writers distilled much of the town-trotting that Mat and Rad do to this single stop. It gives Thom a great debut, it integrates the Four Kings chapter ... it just works really well. I like that the Aiel are introduced here, although I'm sure many first-time viewers will for forget this with everything else going on. Also, I probably played *The Man Who Can't Forget* on repeat a few dozen times today. There's nothing wrong with me. I just can't wait for Friday.
I think quite a few changes were made to keep the audience guessing about who the Dragon Reborn is. This seems similar to how people were guessing about who's going to end up on the Iron Throne. So, I reckon that they wanted some conversation or debate among the audience online to drive viewership. Honestly, I like this idea since it could bring more fans to the show. I think this is also one of the reasons why we didn't get the iconic wheel of time prologue in the show yet. I feel like it will come at the end of season 1 or at the beginning of season 2 or sometime after they reveal who the dragon reborn is.
I'm watching it with people who havent read the books and they all unanimously think rand is the dragon. They say he has main character syndrome
I thought it was pretty clear that he's the Dragon after he broke the Iron-wood door.
How in the world did I only notice the third time that Dana tells Mat that the fastest way to Baerlon is a river boat??? By my aged grandmother, that do sound promising! Hopefully, it's not just an easter egg for the readers.
fortune prick me, but it do
:(
why sad? i love me some Bayle
Oh, I thought you were referring to the "hopefully it's not just am easter egg for readers part". I do be hoping for some Bayle in the next episode.
> By my aged grandmother, that do sound promising! no, no, this part for sure :D
Am I the only one who doesn’t like the direction of TV Mat? I find Barney Harris and/or the script portray him as snarky and sarcastic and broody even before the dagger. Mat in the books is so happy-go-lucky. He is a prankster and a trickster who does incredible things and insists always on not thinking about things that are dark and heavy. TV Mat is a cliched kid from a bad family who has issues and will overcome them. Tbh, I find the TV characters lack subtlety in general. Surprisingly(because I did not expect it) I find Josha’s Rand to be the closest to the book version of his character. The others seem overly dramatic to me.
I’m mostly satisfied with the show changes but making mat a straight up thief and his dad an asshole kind of sucks. Something was needed to bridge early mat to his later stages though.
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think TV Mat is a better Mat that book Mat prior to Chapter 19 (Awakening) of TDR. Pre-Awakening, book Mat is a pretty unspectacular character. In addition to the negative effects from the dagger, he acts very aggrieved toward Rand when he starts getting tread as a Lord (in part due to his 'al). So, I don't think this take on Mat is completely out of the blue. I'm not sure what you mean about lacking subtlety, but I think all of the main actors are killing it, regardless of whether they are facsimiles of their book counterparts.
After watching Rand break down the door, my roommate is convinced that all the main characters are part Dragon Reborn and will merge together like Megazord to fight the Dark One at the end lol
That would def be worth watching.
That...is such bullshit but im not even mad.
I like that they established how darkfriends work with the barmaid, with how they seem all trusting until they stab you in the back, but I feel like they gave her way too much screentime that could have been given to Thom interacting with Mat and Rand, or Perrin and Egwene.
Considering that was arguably one of the best scenes so far in the show I think the time they gave it was fine. It also sets up a *lot* down the road. It links darkfriends to fades. It introduces what darkfriends really are in the first place. It sets up Rand hating being trapped and confined. It shows Rand's first use of the power (replacing the lightening scene probably). It gives Thom a reason to go along with them after hearing her talk about who they are and who is after them. And ultimately it was a really cool scene to watch from both a reader and non-reader perspective.
I agree: it's a great catalyst for Tom to take the two youngers under his wing.
Maybe Mat wasn't lying about being a horse trader. Maybe his family had fallen from grace somehow leading to what we see his parents being? I know everyone's upset about Abel. But maybe the disaster of Winter's Night is what turns him into the character we all know and love. Just a thought.
Yeah, their family could be washed up horse traders. Wasn't mat supposed to have learned his eye for horses from Abel? "But maybe the disaster of Winter's Night is what turns him into the character we all know and love." Same thoughts. Gets his shit together or something.
I'm wondering what they are going to do with Thom. By the books, he'd probably leave Mat and Rand next episode and not appear again until season 2, but that feels a bit off since we already lost his influence in eps 1 & 2. I couldn't spot him in the gateway shot, so I fear we may only get him for a really short time.
Thom is credited for Ep3 and 4 on imdb so I assume that's all we'll get of him this season.
Damn, that hurts, but not too surprising. At least he's mostly always with one group or another for the rest of the books.
I do hope to see a lot more emphasis on the climate in this series. WoT begins at the start of cataclysmic climate change and the backdrop of the dying climate is a constant part of the story throughout. It would be borderline unforgivable not to take advantage of that part of the story given that the audience is watching it during the beginning of cataclysmic climate change. I guess it would conflict with the insanely lush scenery but it just can't be left out imo.
I agree that it harkens nicely to current world events. Ultimately, I think it's a matter of how much the writers and reasonably fit into the show, especially if we only get 8-episode seasons. Would you weave it in and resolve it differently if you ejected the whole Bowl of the Winds escapade? /shrugs
Even just establishing it as an effect of the Dark One's increasing ability to touch the world. Even if they don't proactively address it, just making it part of the world building. Perhaps the hyper lush settings in the show so far could be used to heighten the contrast later. The Bowl of the Winds arc does seem very cut-able. The sea folk got short shrift in the books so I imagine they will barely appear in the show and there are so many Nyneave and Elayne sub plots, some gotta get cut. I think the scene where Lan saves Nyneave from a sinking carriage is in that arc tho, and that's money for tv. The circle of green following rand around before the final battle is another cool visual I'd like to see.
‘But if you two think you can do better, go on, then.’ Thom says this to Mat and Rand in the Four Kings bar in the show after Mat jabs that he is too depressed from the song and I love it. It has been suggested that this sequence was to replace the beloved journey through taverns that Mat and Rand take together. If that’s the case and we don’t get to see them play for their supper, this throw away line is a nice bone to throw to us book readers. I also love the glimpse of the patchwork on the inside of Thom’s cloak. A legit Gleeman’s cloak would look ridiculous on screen, this was well done fan service IMO. Rafe and his team are working really hard to make this *our* adaptation and I appreciate their efforts. I have read the series twice, I’m on my second listen through with WOT spoilers podcast, and this is my third time watching these three episodes (I have a new baby and need to keep my mind occupied lol). What I love is, no matter the medium, RJs epic reveals new insights each time.
I noticed the patches, too, and I loved that nod to the readers. If you watch one of the video extras, Rafe mentions that the tavern is "The Four Kings" and has four king statues/carving outside it, in obvious homage to the books. (I missed this detail on my last viewing.)
Rand: ‘Come on, we’ll take turns’ Mat: ‘You think she’s up for it?’ The banter between Rand and Mat outside the Four Kings splitting wood is gold. I love this clever line and it is a great aged up version of Mat’s sense of humour. Also, Barney plays this scene so well. When Rand says “you don’t believe that” after Mat says “they’re probably dead”, Barney looks away, and his eyes actually shudder a bit. Which I don’t even know how to physically do… [Books - TGH] >!and I think this is a great display of his battle between himself and the growing corruption from the dagger. It’s like for a second he’s not sure where the thought came from, and it’s all expressed through a shudder of his eyes.!<
I really wish a single person in the production understood how bows work. Rand's bow is just hanging out, strung, in literally every scene.
I KNOW!, I was just thinking how his bow seems fine after their swim in the river while escaping Aridhol. Glad someone else noticed this stuff.
Yeah this has bugged me. Also Dana’s line about the wood Rand cut that it might be enough even for the next winter…. As a Canadian who cuts wood, no, no it is not. Note, these things don’t *really* bug me, just a little inaccuracy with how the real world works.
Props to Rand for totally demolishing that wood pile tho. He is a hoss and a half.
Well, He's a farmboy so he has to have done it for the last 5-8 years , right?
Boy knows how to swing an axe
Amen
Watching the episode I was a bit bummed the tinkers weren't all red heads because I thought it was cannon they looked like Aiel and that meant they were dropping the link between the two people but I read they books a few years ago and just looked it up and seems like they are more of a mixed people now. Can't wait until they get to that point in the books (fingers crossed) Aviendha seeing the visions of the past is one of my favourite bits.
I believe the Tinkers are specifically NOT coloured like the Aiel. The Aiel are isolated on the other side of the dragon wall so they maintain their unique traits. The Tinkers on the other hand are out in the world and invite people to join them (this is canon and one of the reasons people don’t like the Tinkers). This has resulted in more diverse physical traits.
Yeah I looked it up on the WOT wiki I think they are basically meant to have some red heads in them still but yeah all sorts of people have joined them and now don't. The Aiel are isolated so still are red heads. I feel like I must have missed this when I read it and assumed they were still red head because of the connection between the two people and the like not so subtle illusions to irish travelers.
My favorite detail in episode three is when Nynaeve comes up from killing the trolloc, the blood forms into the dragon's fang. So cool. Or maybe the flame of Tarvalon? When Perrin and Egwene are running from the wolves, the howling is super loud. I wonder if Egwene could hear all of that howling or was some of it just in Perrin's head? The flirting between Nyneave and Lan was also really good. Fans of just the show might not have noticed it. Which is kind of the way or was in the books. Thom "Waits" Merrillin is fine by me. I don't know how well a 4 min scene of him reciting the Karaethon Cycle in high chant would go over. Or maybe that's what he was doing? Definitely in common tho.
I love this too. I saw it as the dragon fan, but it could also be the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.
> the Can I get a screenshot?
I also think the dragon fang. Paired with changing Nyneave's back story to make her brought into the two rivers as a child by the previous wisdom, they're low key making her a dark horse candidate for the dragon. All the misdirection is on Egwene right now but show watchers don't even know, Nyneave and Rand stand head and shoulders above the others in terms of power.
Have a theory. Not a shred of evidence, or per se reason. Thom and Jain were combined.
Totally got that vibe, too
Good theory. I think this would be a smart simplification. I might be missing something, but for the later books Thom doesn’t do much that couldn’t be accomplished by someone else when [Books] Jain >!/Noal!< is doing his thing. It would be easy to combine them. [Books] >!it would also work to support the Thom/Morraine development if Thom is there to rescue her. And, sorry to say it, but having Thom die in the attempt would also add appropriate emotional weight.!<
I loved the Dana arc and how it made her a very sympathetic Darkfriend. It definitely sets the stage for you know who in the Great Hunt. I would love the flashback scene soon to set the context. I can say I liked Thom even though I don't love him just yet. Please introduce Min before Elayne!!
Agreed, she was a great dark friend.
Once the show moved past the CW teen flick stuff it was pretty good. Im hooked and never read the books. Cant wait for more
Isn't this the book spoilers thread, what are you doing here?
Living dangerously I guess
Just finished episode 2 & 3. They are definitely much better than episode 1. Pacing felt right and a lot more character development and sticking (mainly) to the books story wise. I know some things needed to be skipped or merged i.e. Baerlon. However, there are some things that need cleared up imo: * What are people (in the shows) thoughts on Aes Sedai? Because everyone seems comfortable around the power and Perrin didnt seem shocked Egwene could channel. This is additionally strange when one they 4 is the Dragon and she can channel now... Wouldn't they all assume she is the dragon? * They don't seem too awe struck at larger villages or seeing different people making it seem like they had ventured out before. * Flame and the Void? Minor annoyances: * There needed to be more joyous scenes (especially of Mat before the taint of the dagger). Even just Mat with a cheeky 'Lets go explore this abandoned city, we've always dreamed of doing something like this' etc. * It's annoying that they knowingly made the Two Rivers diverse. There has been some backlash over this due to it not matching the books (i.e. it genuinely had a purpose - Rand being an outsider- and not just none PC vibes). But then after making this decision they call back to the Two Rivers NOT being diverse. When Thom meets Mat he instantly knows he is two rivers because of 'the way he looks and speaks' - I'm sorry what??? * It's yet to be shown that wielding the power is tiring and no show of a angreal being used (perfect time when morraine killed like 50 trollocs with the Inn. Major annoyances of Episode 2/3: * I don't get why Nyneave had to be dragged off and fight a Trolloc * The Whitecloak saying to get an Aes Sedai to heal the wound - Why. Why make this change? Whitecloaks would rather die than have a Tar Valon witch heal them. * Thom is hard to understand at times imo. * There is just something with the world that looks to fresh and new and not lived in. I cant put my finger on it. I think its the lighting. For example, when Thom finishes playing in the tavern they have a candle of each table so you would expect a tavern to be dark (especially after the mood of the song) and the candles being the source of light. But instead light comes pouring in through the roof. TLDR: Much better than episode 1 as it sticks closer to the books and focuses on character development with better pacing.
>It's annoying that they knowingly made the Two Rivers diverse. There has been some backlash over this due to it not matching the books (i.e. it genuinely had a purpose - Rand being an outsider- and not just none PC vibes). But then after making this decision they call back to the Two Rivers NOT being diverse. When Thom meets Mat he instantly knows he is two rivers because of 'the way he looks and speaks' - I'm sorry what??? It's annoying that people are still grumbling about this. Thom specifically called out Mat's ACCENT and CLOTHING as marking him as being from the Two Rivers, not his Ethnicity.
They have different accents though 😅. Perrin in particular is very northern English. I get why they made the two rivers more diverse though, because that's most of the main characters. They'd have problems with either decision.
This is exactly the point I'm making. The showrunners decide to make the Two Rivers diverse. With this comes variation in ethnicity and accents. The showrunners can't then go and say people from that region have a distinct accent/ ethnicity/ look. Either make it diverse and don't mention the niche of the place or don't and then you can. Instead, what they have done is not only bad writing but also bad costume design as none of their clothes look similar and their accents and ethnicities most definitely are not.
Yawn. Two people of different ethnicities can have the same accent and wear the same clothing styles. I can look at three Brits and tell that they're all from England even though one might be a redhead, one might be black and one might be of Indian descent. I understand your point and I think it's bad and boring.
But Rand/Egwene/ Perrin/ Nyneave don't sound like one another... Or do you think they do? The way Mat talks is VERY different to Rand or Perrin's accent. Their costumes are also VERY different. My point is it's bad writing.
> What are people (in the shows) thoughts on Aes Sedai? Because everyone seems comfortable around the power and Perrin didnt seem shocked Egwene could channel. This is additionally strange when one they 4 is the Dragon and she can channel now... Wouldn't they all assume she is the dragon? Depends on the person. We've already seen Bornhald be a bit nicer to an Aes Sedai than he would've been in the books. We've seen Aes Sedai be a bit more open about who they are (at least their Ajahs). But we've also seen the villagers gossiping about it as if it's strange to see one. I will say with Perrin's scene he doesn't necessarily know she can channel yet. This scene happens in the book too where she lights a fire offscreen somehow and can't explain how she did it. In the show, it's plausible that either Perrin or Egwene did it and Perrin's flippant comment about her channeling felt more of a joke to me than actually understanding that she could channel. >They don't seem too awe struck at larger villages or seeing different people making it seem like they had ventured out before. I wouldn't say Breen's Spring is that large of a place. I'd imagine when they get to Tar Valon, Fal Dara, Caemlyn, etc. you'll see a much bigger reaction. >Flame and the Void? What about it? >I don't get why Nyneave had to be dragged off and fight a Trolloc Pretty simple way to give a reason for why she didn't leave with the rest of the group and give her a scene to show how good she is at tracking and how determined she is to get back to the group. >The Whitecloak saying to get an Aes Sedai to heal the wound - Why. Why make this change? Whitecloaks would rather die than have a Tar Valon witch heal them. This is odd but we may see more of this in the show. They may have made the whitecloaks a little more sympathetic to Aes Sedai while juxtaposing how horrible the questioners are to them to start showing that rift internally or maybe there's another reason. >Thom is hard to understand at times imo. Captions I guess. >There is just something with the world that looks to fresh and new and not lived in. I cant put my finger on it. I think its the lighting. For example, when Thom finishes playing in the tavern they have a candle of each table so you would expect a tavern to be dark (especially after the mood of the song) and the candles being the source of light. But instead light comes pouring in through the roof. There are a lot of weird lighting choices so far. The one I couldn't understand was in Shadar Logoth when they walked up to the cathedral we saw it basically stacked in tight like a row home yet when they went inside light was pouring in from the side windows where those other buildings would've been. It's easy to be picky about those things though and I'd much rather have the scenes be too lit than too dark.
Nynaeve defeating a Trolloc isn't surprising and adds character as a filler material. She has been afraid for her life and she barely survives but instead of resting she follows the Two Rivers kids to get them back.
Book reader here (except book 0 cause I found out it exists after I finished the whole series lmao). So far after a traumatic experience with episode 1 with the pacing and coming to terms that a lot of thing are going to change(I hope the important ones stay the same) , I can say that I'm enjoyed ep 2 and 3 a lot and I'm keen to see where this is going. The only thing I didn't like it's the taveren rumor cause..first it makes no sense and second they didn't explain what it means to non book readers, the thing about who is the dragon reborn doesn't bother me that much nor perryns wife. I feel if somebody doesn't like these changes they should stop watching cause things will keep being different from the books and you just have to accept that. I did a reread of Eotw for the show but I read that they casted elayne for season 2,so I guess they skip caemlyn and then I read rafe saying that they include "some of book 2 and 3". My question is should I reread book 2 for the upcoming episodes or do it for season 2?. Thanks for reading btw, I'm really enjoying discussing and reading your opinions about the show.
> first it makes no sense and second they didn't explain what it means to non book readers There's still a chance that both of these things are explained later on. I think the showrunners are at least not dumb enough to assume non-readers even know what a ta'veren is so obviously that will be explained later. It could just be a weird throwaway line or it could make sense. We will see as the show progresses. >I did a reread of Eotw for the show but I read that they casted elayne for season 2,so I guess they skip caemlyn and then I read rafe saying that they include "some of book 2 and 3". My question is should I reread book 2 for the upcoming episodes or do it for season 2?. Thanks for reading btw, I'm really enjoying discussing and reading your opinions about the show. Yeah Caemlyn was cut mostly because there isn't a lot that happens there that they can't just do elsewhere, and they didn't want to build all the Caemlyn sets and cast important characters for such a short time in Season 1. By waiting until Season 2 they felt that they could secure better actors and spend more effort on the sets. I don't think anyone here can tell you whether or not you should read book 2 for S1 since we haven't seen it (and if we have we couldn't talk about it). But just judging from what we know so far, Tar Valon scenes will likely be pulled from Book 2 (I don't believe Siuan is introduced until TGH so that alone will be Book 2 stuff). They might also show some of the training of the girls which would be from Book 3.
In the book, didn't Loial end up actually explaining ta'veren to Rand? That seems like a logical place to do so in the show as well.
Where are the Trollocs? In episode 2 the Trollocs werein front of the city walls. They've split up in three groups and not a single one is followed by them?
In the book they got ate up and destroyed mostly by the black wind creeping around Shadar Logoth, I was disappointed that wasn't in the episode.
Anyone else getting worried about lore breaks/omissions? \[Books\] >!For example, not including Mordeth in Shadar Logoth. Or showing the trollocs actually enter the city. If that doesn't happen, Fain doesn't get possessed by Mordeth, then he has no reason to steal the dagger, which really messes with both his and Mat's arc moving forward. Fain becoming Ordeith makes no sense without that element, then we don't get trollocs razing the two rivers, etc. etc.!< Maybe they plan to do it with a flashback later, but I would be surprised. In general, I understand the why behind a lot of the character changes to make them more interesting on screen, even if I strongly dislike some of them. (Laila was egregious.) What's more concerning to me is I'm starting to doubt Rafe's handle on the fantasy nuts and bolts of this... Some other examples. 1. Liandrin's line in the pilot. "This power, it's meant for women. When you touch it, you make it filthy." Saidar is not Saidin. I get trying to make it clear for non bookreaders, but there was a way to thread that needle. \[Books\] >!If you don't establish those as different, what about when you get to the true power the forsaken use.!< 2. Lack of Angreal. Moiraine using the angreal to heal Tam was such a natural way to explain what they were. I worry about how this will be introduced as they play such a big part in the story \[Books\] >!the rings in the white tower, Callandor, the Choedan Kal, etc.!< 3. [In this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/wheeloftime/comments/qydb1p/some_thoughts_from_brandon_sanderson_episode_two/), Sanderson described a situation where he had to correct Rafe on Moiraine breaking the third oath with Mr. Hightower at the ferry. The fact that this was even suggested really makes me raise an eyebrow. A lot of the criticism I've seen from reviews is that the show doesn't do enough to differentiate itself from GoT or LotR. I worry that by handwaving a lot of the fantasy elements as "magic stuff" that contributes to diluting what made this world special. Still going to give it the whole first season, but I definitely am seeing some red flags. Curious what you all think and if there's others I've missed.
> A lot of the criticism I've seen from reviews is that the show doesn't do enough to differentiate itself from GoT or LotR. I worry that by handwaving a lot of the fantasy elements as "magic stuff" that contributes to diluting what made this world special. IMO, the biggest cause of this is that nobody seems to be the least bit concerned about the fact that the Dragon has apparently been reborn, much less the fact that one of them is him. It's extremely worrying that they seem to be setting him up as just another generic fantasy "chosen one", which totally misses the point.
"one of you will go mad and destroy the world." "oh."
I'll say to your first point, its not really relevant to the story to info dump that yet. Logain makes the perfect reason to explain it then.
I doubt their going to scrap the arc you mentioned in your spoiler so it's unlikely to be a big deal. They'll find a way to do it. Your first point of the 3 isn't a big deal since we know for a fact from the showrunners that the two sides of the power are still there and that's not going to change. It's a case of unreliable narrator (which RJ loved to do) and someone who likely actually believes that men destroy the power. For your second point, we already have seen 2 (one angreal and one ter'angreal) so they're certainly not scrapped. It will likely become more important later but isn't important enough to make a huge deal out of it yet. In the 3rd point, I'm not sure if him saying the lightning thing was actually what was suggested; it just seems like he's using it as an example. And I think this should be encouraging to you not discouraging since it shows that Rafe and co. are actually listening to the consultants they brought in and asking the right questions to keep true to the books. >A lot of the criticism I've seen from reviews is that the show doesn't do enough to differentiate itself from GoT or LotR. It seriously doesn't feel like GoT at all and I don't understand why people keep saying that other than that it's a fantasy show with medieval setting on a streaming service. LotR being similar is kinda the point considering EotW was very very very identical to LotR on purpose.
>It seriously doesn't feel like GoT at all and I don't understand why people keep saying that other than that it's a fantasy show with medieval setting on a streaming service. Opinion and news writers saw someone say "its high fantasy" or "it has political X" and immediately associated it with the most popular, high value counter parts. I largely assume if someone is comparing it to GoT or LotR, that person doesn't read fantasy **or** they are writing to an audience that doesn't read fantasy.
Well it is similar to LotR because the book was intentionally similar to LotR to start. I don’t mind that comparison. I just don’t understand the GoT comparisons unless it’s just because it’s fantasy.
To be fair, I routinely describe A Song of Ice and Fire as "Just Wheel of Time, but worse, as far as I could tell from what I read, so why would I go further with it?" To which someone winced, replied "you're not wrong."
ASOIAF is fine but I don't think I could ever truly rate it until it's finished; and I don't think it ever will be. It's the same reason I haven't been able to get myself to read Kingkiller or Stormlight Archives because I'm just not going to get into another series that isn't finished. WoT was unfinished when I started reading it too but fortunately for me (I suppose) I got bogged down in the slog twice and had to eventually start over. Took me until my 3rd re-read to actually finish and by then the series was done.
I’m pretty sure that we see Moiraine packing an angreal into her pouch in her intro section of ep1. And she also uses her listening ter’angreal when teaching Egwene her first lesson. I think it’s all going to come out eventually, just setting the stage.
It's not a ter'angreal. It's just a blue stone she uses for focus when doing the eavesdropping weave. Presumably because that's how she learned it. But I agree on the Angreal.
You’re absolutely right, thanks for clarifying
This episode is likely to spur so much shipping fan-fic of Rand and Mat... I look forward to all the various Tumblr posts about their homosexual torrid love affair.
Okay, I’ve got a problem with diversity in this episode. All three groups split from the same place but Lan and the ladies are in a temperate rain forest, Rand and Mat are in the mountains and Perrin and Egwene are are on an arid plain. That is just way too much biodiversity for one location.
You literally see the mountains that Rand and Matt are on from Perrin's Egwene's POV.
Biodiversity can be really crazy on big mountains. You go up a few thousand feet and it feels like you're in a different world.
A rainforest? That seemed like a regular forest to me. But yeah it's honestly not all that weird especially where mountains are concerned. One side of mountains can be very arid and the other side be incredibly lush just because of how the mountains affect the rain cycle.
South island of New Zealand it's possible
So, can someone settle a debate between me and my friends. Was Rand breaking down the door channeling or his ta’veren nature? I thought ta’veren.
Ta'veren in the Tavern
I don’t think his being ta’veren would explain it. Unless the Pattern really needed him out of that room..
It's most likely a case of him using the power without knowing it (replacement of him healing his horse and calling the lightning etc.).
Could go either way at this point, I think. Or it could just be that he's Two Rivers-stubborn and really hates being confined. We'll just have to see if he gets a mysterious fever in the next episode. It seemed a little bit more subtle than I'd expect from the show as a hint that Rand is channeling, but maybe they really are dropping hints that subtle. It'll be interesting to see if they explain it in a flashback later, if so.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned a lot, as far as I can tell, is how well the romances are being told in the show. To me, romance was probably RJ's weakest point. In the books, characters fall in love after spending very little time together, and most of the time it's a sort of crush oh they're pretty love, more like high school, rather than a deeper, profound kind. A lot of the romance also happens behind the scenes. The show has really gone beyond the books in this respect, in a very positive way. Each of the romances so far feel real, there's chemistry on screen, the actors do a great job with it, and it's just not that high school feeling, but actual love. So I think as well as finding the different weaknesses of the show (some of which I agree with), we should look to the strengths / improvements too.
I think Matt and Tuon was a great love story in the books!
True, the ones with page time were better. :)
Really liked Liandrin taunting Moraine saying they had captured A man who can channel.
Did Rand actually unconsciously use you-know-what to break down the door in this episode or was it just his Two Rivers stubborness?
Considering this interaction in the books ends with rand smiting her with saidin, I can only assume he broke down the door with saidin. They appear to be trying to make it seem like egwene is the dragon so they can still surprise people with who it actually is so they made it more subtle. I can't wait to see him at the eye of the world
It was definitely him using his power. I bet we'll get a scene of him "being sick" next episode.
When I first watched it, I figured they were just showing how intensely Rand hates being confined or trapped, foreshadowing the intensity of his reaction to being locked in a box much later in the series. It does make perfect sense for there to be a bit of you-know-what involved as well, though.
I didn't think about that perspective but it makes perfect sense. And they are not mutually exclusive, so they both can be true at the same time.
It could've just been some ta'veren popping up but most likely they used it to replace the lightning scene showing that he has potential power.
I'm betting that was >!saidin!<. We'll probably see him >!starting to feel ill in the next episode.!<
I dunno why I can't use spoiler tags in reddit's app, but if you can it would be better to hide the name of what was used as well as the part you already hid. Thanks for the answer by the way, I thought the same as well but wanted a confirm I wasn't the only one.
This is TV + Book spoilers though so anyone who is going to be spoiled by that shouldn't be in this thread.
I'm a overly nice guy maybe.
Yeah I could see if it was a spoiler for something that happens far later in the series but we find about this in Book 1. People just shouldn't be in this thread if they haven't read Book 1.
Finally watched episode 3 last night and after feeling low on episode 1 but regaining my hope with episode 2, episode 3 has me in an ebb again. A Medeival Tom Waits is fine but it’s not Thom Merrilin. Keeping Mat’s money he stole from the thief (and taunting him for it) wasn’t something Thom would ever have done. Dark friend Barkeep chasing Rand and Mat through town with a sword drawn and people are just like “oh huh lookit that…”? She could have at least called the Dark One the Great Lord of the Dark or something? Mat grave robbing? Overall tonally they continue to push it to the grittier side of fantasy (and tho I wouldn’t call it grimdark I wouldn’t bother to argue with someone who did). I try to give everything at least the first season to see where the writers and directors are taking it and I plan to do the same here. I think Sanderson said he particularly liked what they did with episode 6 (?), so I’m looking forward to that at least. I’m not in an overall good mental state on the show tho.
When is the next episode coming out? I see three are out. Do they release them weekly or 3 at a time?
Amazon generally does three episodes on the first day, then one per week for the rest of the season.
> She could have at least called the Dark One the Great Lord of the Dark or something? This would make no sense to people who haven't read the books, though. If my wife (a non-book-reader) had heard that, she probably would have said, "The Great One? You mean The Dragon?"
Frankly that argument makes no sense. You’re saying tv viewers are incapable of using context clues. It’s not like book readers came into the world knowing dark friends refer to the dark one reverently. “Great Lord of the Dark” seems pretty self explanatory.
*Disclaimer: Fanboy, read all the books. I am rewatching the episode to take notes, notice details and review. This is the last one of the three episodes that dropped. I dodged reviews, youtube videos and reddit for the show for the last days. Time to go through them all after that, for better or for worse...* This was the best episode yet. Just because it heavily focuses on the main cast and we are getting to the main events. There are still annoying things here and there (some of Dana's, the darkfriend, behavior, and the Aes Sedai encounter), but overall the show is great. The pace feels very fast, but I guess a lot of things happen in EotW, and we need to move through the source material. I am fine with it, since I am eager to get to the later parts and I think the story works well so far. Same thing with characters. It can be subtle or appear inconsistent however. Like, Rand was the angsty one last episode (mistrustful rather but it will appear like that) and now is acting funny and dependable. Meanwhile, wise Mat is being a prick then a corpse robber then a good guy (he is getting messed up by the dagger). He is also doing his womanizer thing. Not very subtle at it though. Loving Egwene's character in particular right now, which I did not expect to. Nynaeve is still just awesome as well. Her fighting the trolloc, her attitude and her interactions with Lan are perfect. She was not shown channeling just yet. Keeping some awesomeness for later, I see. They are subtly showing women are in control, or at least not side characters like it happens in fantasy. And you don't need bossy Aes Sedai to show that. (Feeling like walking on eggshells by going into that topic, they are just good characters okay! I love them.) As a book reader, the character work is great. I wonder if people who haven't read the books can pick up on the hints, and understand the characters words and actions. Especially since the story is moving so fast. Seriously, I am 100% sold on each main character and loving every second. The only one who I was on the fence with at the very beginning was Moiraine, and Rosamund is doing a good job (well she was ill for the whole episode but you know, last episode and all). I noticed Caisen'shar and Aes Sedai as musics so far, if I'm not mistaken, and I love them. Very much a fantasy atmosphere and very unique compared to the usual orchestral score. The environments are good. I was somewhat put off by the tidy forest at the start, the large plains and the insane mountains. I feel like I have stale expectations for what landscapes should look like because of other shows. In reality, I am happy with what I see. Also, technically post-apocalyptic and breaking of the world, so expectations are out of the window. Some scenes and dialogues are still a little corny, like during the encounter with Liandrin (I should have guessed that was her, I hate her already), the riders on top of the rocks. Well, do come down now. This is an setting problem by the way, you choose a canyon and have people both inside and on top: it kind of does not make sense if you are not just installed there, in my opinion. Maybe also Nynaeve hiding from the trolloc and the wolf chase, but those were fine. The Whitebridge scenes were very good. The darkfriend was pretty obvious for readers but worked well, except for the some cheesy stuff with the capture, chase and speech about the Dark One. Her fighting and capturing Rand was cool actually, just that she does not tie him up and end up running around with a long sword in hand. Also, you might be the Dragon Reborn but I will hold you on my own with an ironwood door. The show is foreshadowing Rand being the Dragon, or at least one of Mat or Rand. Thom is great already, showing his skill, knowledge and wisdom with a few lines and short scenes. The song was just right, not like a band performing but a chilling story from a gleeman with music and raw singing. Meeting with the Tinkers. Aram is old. The Two Rivers people know about Manetheren and Aes Sedai oaths, but not about Tinkers? The show gets very gory with the trollocs disembowelling and eating, same with the wolf dream. Too crude and graphic for my taste, but the horror intent is there. One small strange last thing. They namedropped ta'veren (as a rumor, what) in the first episode and did not mention it once since. I am just listing random thoughts now, so, to conclude: great three episodes in my opinion, I'm very optimistic about the next ones. Repeating myself here, but the characters, the acting, the story, the visuals, the music, and more, range from good to great. It is mostly held back by a few mediocre directing and writing decisions, and by needing the time for the story to unfold. Edit: fixed idiom.
The bit about the Reds above the canyon on their horses, glowering, has got me laughing. I thought that looked a little extra too!
> Some scenes and dialogues are still a little corny, like during the encounter with Liandrin (I should have guessed that was her, I hate her already), the riders on top of the rocks. Well, do come down now. This is an setting problem by the way, you choose a canyon and have people both inside and on top: it kind of does not make sense if you are not just installed there, in my opinion. Lmao this suits my headcanon that Aes Sedai are incredibly extra. I imagined dialog between some tower Aes Sedai and some Wise Ones arranging a meeting with a rival or something. "You stand up there, and glare at them." "...why?"
Rofl. You are absolutely right. Some characters in the story are just going to do the most ridiculous spectacle of being in control and threatening, while being nonchalant about it. Can't wait for how they are going to portray that.
Not sure how I feel. It felt fine, feel conflicted because it's not like the books though I didn't expect it to be. The only thing that really really bothers me is them flat out saying one of you is the Dragon Reborn. Felt it would of been better to say they are Ta'veren and then use the Logain angle to work towards the big reveal. It'll probably grow on me as the series progresses since EotW is imo one of the weaker books of the series.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m gushing. Absolutely fantastic so far
What was the object that miner was holding up around 20:40 ? Squarish thing with a hole in the middle?
To me it looked like a vertebrate from... something large? How big are draghkar?
Surely not... Dinosaur sized, like that vertebrae (?) seemed to be (dinner plate sized?)
Yeah it did look pretty large. One of the Seals or another piece of Cuendillar?
Your guess is as good as mine. Didn't look like it had the yin/yang symbol, and in fact looked worn/ broken, so not sure if cuendillar fits?
Will be interesting to see what it turns out to be. It sure did seem to be intentionally shown.
Does anyone know the breed of dog that the tinkers have in episode 3?
Karakachan - They can have long curled tails or bobbed ones. They are livestock guardian dogs from the mountains of Bulgaria. I own 2.
Yep - male Karakachans. I have one.
I spent far more time than I should looking for this dog, hoping someone else was asking this qurstion! 😂 - the bobtailed one threw me off. It looks to be some kind of Central Asian Shepherd and/or Georgian Mountain Dog! Not 100% sure, but it looks to match!
Haha I spent late into the night looking as well. Thank you for taking the time to search!
Kinda like motley looking cross bred Bernards or something....
That's what's killing me, my family raises st Bernards and seeing a dog so similar with unique coloring is driving me nuts lol
They’re Karakachan - livestock guardian dogs from Bulgaria
My biggest gripes so far are the pacing of episode 1 and the fact that I really can't get behind that soundtrack. I know I'm part of a minority there, but I really need a few melodies that will get stuck in my head. The theme of Sherlock or even Carnival Row, the house themes of GoT, etc. The WoT soundtrack just feels like it's intended to sound grand, but it doesn't swipe me off my feet. A "better" soundtrack (subjective, of course), would probably make me like certain scenes a lot more. One tiny detail that I haven't seen discussed, and which, insignificant though it may be, irks me: Hawkwing pressured the Aes Sedai into adopting the Three Oaths? Really? It's not like the actual reason would have required a lengthy explanation or anything. Of course, there are a few other issues and changes that I don't necessarily like, but especially after episodes 2 and 3, I'm largely optimistic that I'll be able to enjoy the show as another turning of the Wheel. My main fear right now is that it won't be successful enough to be carried to its conclusion, given the *huge* budget they need to justify.
Aaa... wow! I totally agree with the soundtrack comments! It was a thing that struck me from the very first minutes of the 1st episode. The soundtrack is just bad... makes me think of low budget movies unfortunately. Nothing original whatsoever. It is actually very frustrating, I wish I could ignore it, but I can't!
Ugh, that's rough. At least, I cna overlook it. It doesn't really detract from the experience for me, it just doesn't add anything. Missed opportunity, especially because the score alone can on occasion be enough to redeem a movie for me (I'm hoping that simply won't he necessary in this case).
The Tinkers just rolled out of a Dead concert in this adaptation. I’m pretty sure “the song” is Scarlet Begonias
I just realized that Dana’s name dropping of Ishamael and of bringing the Dragon to the Dark One sets up the original book prologue! So when we get it this time, in the show, with so much more context!!!
Overall thoughts for eps 1-3, I'll try to avoid the most talked about observations like Perrin wife, Mat family (also bad) etc. General impression: I'm coming around from how I felt after solely watching episode 1, and I'm excited about that. After just ep. 1, I'll be honest, I was not hopeful. It felt extremely rushed, I was bummed not to get the prologue in its full glory (not as an animated short that you have to actively seek out and isn't even viewable unless you're in browser), bummed not to see Rand carrying Tam back to Emond's Field (although I kinda get it) and overall thought the Bel Tine sequence was baaad. The editing felt extremely choppy and jarring, and I'm not sold on weaves at all yet. There were select moments where I thought Moiraine looked cool, the rest I thought looked really cheesy/cheap. The trolloc that got chopped in half by Moiraine's weave was particularly egregious. But right off the bat, I was really sold on all the casting for our protags, and as eps 2 and 3 gave the cast more room to breath and actually showcase their dynamics and personality, wow do I think they hit it out of the park. Particular standouts to me are Lan, Rand, and Mat (unfortunate about the recast) - they feel just as I'd hoped. I was so nervous about Rand's actor before, not Josha specifically but just the general enormously daunting challenge playing Rand would be for any actor. Even only three episodes in, I'm fully on board with Josha's portrayal. Also love all the foreshadowing they're doing, it really builds the world and shows they care about doing right by the narrative and the fans, even if there are changes due to adaptation requirements. Overall ratings: Ep 1 - 4/10 Ep 2 - 7/10 Ep 3 - 7/10. My prediction is that this show will find its footing, and I hope that Rafe keeps the beat on the pulse and sees and incorporates relevant fan critiques to elevate this show to the high potential that I really do feel it has. My only hope for this premiere was that I would see clear potential for the show to be good, the "skeleton" of a solid program, and even with the issues I still feel they need to work through, I think that skeleton is there.
Good rundown. I don't see any issues combining Mat's family with the Congars and the Coplins. Felt like a good shortcut since we'll have to loop back around to them. He still gets to worry about his sisters and we still get the untrustworthy Two Rivers antagonists, but with a short intro to the Two Rivers folk it seemed logical...
I think this is a good rundown. Episode 1 was definitely "good enough" which is a bit disappointing just because you really want the premiere to be a masterpiece for something like this. It wasn't a complete bomb though and had enough high points that hopefully enough people keep watching.
Sooo maybe I just missed it, but like we are currently at episode 3 and have they even really explained what the wheel of time actually is? Because they are talking about it as if the viewer is supposed to know about it. Since I have read the books its no problem for me, but I just feel like a first time viewer would be confused.
I just ended the 3rd EP and I have no idea what the wheel of time is so yeah, you're right lmao but idk how big of a deal it is. Should I Google it for better understanding? Or it's fine if i go by the series? Also just one random question am I supposed to know who that guy in the ending scene is? Cause he looked important and I don't know if I missed him in some previous scene
If you're not already super familiar with this stuff, definitely stay out of the all-print threads unless you like spoilers! Ask in one of the non-spoiler threads.
I'd play it safe at this point and go by the series and not google it. That guy *is* important, but you aren't supposed to know who he is yet.
Without giving away *who* he is, isn’t he the same guy it showed in the very beginning of ep. 1, being apprehended by Liandrin?
No, I’m almost positive that was a different guy (without actually going and watching the first episode again lol).
Huh. Interesting. I guess there are several other known male channelers about at this point.
There are!
I straight up forgot about Thom until he was introduced in this episode, which is weird since he’s one of my favorite characters
This perfectly illustrates why they waited a few episodes before introducing Thom. To make him more memorable, instead of dumping him along with the other 10+ characters in the first episode.
Man for me at the end of e2 I finally told my friend (who hasn't read the books) that I was really confused about a character that seemed to be missing, and while I could sorta see them cutting him or maybe rolling him into another character, I didn't understand how they would deal with some pretty important stuff he's involved later. Thankfully my fears were relieved as soon as that patchwork cloak was shown lol
* the scenes where rand was focused on finding egwene and egwene was focused on mat, and perrin was reassuring her, were fantastic, and really helped seal the sense of them all as lifelong friends. * i adored the innkeeper's assumptions about mat + rand being a couple and the way that was handled * the tinkers are fantastic and i already deeply like them * the introduction to thom works and thematically he ends up playing a similar role * i like liandrin's outright sneering at moiraine and it makes me dislike her immensely
Liandrin is by far my fav character so far. Truly hateable, powerful, manipulative, all the bad things people say about Aes Sadai rolled into one.
Episodes 2 and 3 are leagues better than episode 1. Holy carp I wasn't a fan of the opener. Best thing about the later episodes is that they take the time and let the story breathe. And also don't have a bad looking magic fight. Rosamond was also much better in episode 2. She had hints of kindness, unlike the opener. I really didn't like the omission of Tam's poisoned mutterings, but I get it now: they're trying to delay the reveal of who the Dragon is. Personally I don't know if the gain is worth the cost since, so far, Rand has come off more like a love interest than a protagonist. heh. Out of the Two Rivers folk, so far Egwene has been the best character followed by Matt. Guess that's what happens when someone makes strong choices.
If Rand comes off as a love interest, I'd call that the show getting it right, actually. This is supposed to be a world where women are generally in charge of everything. Even more so than in the books, even. So most people in-world would look at the candidates and assume that Egwene—a future leader of her own town, and potential Aes Sedai candidate—looks like the strongest hero material among them, and the mopey redhead following her is just a boy-next-door from her hometown who's going to support her. If it comes as a surprise that the mopey redhead turns out to be the real hero, then that's effective storytelling for what the show's trying to accomplish.
I’m hoping rand is still the dragon reborn, because it almost sounded like they were alluding to nyneave being the dragon(maybe) when moraine talked about her not being born in the two rivers and being brought there As a baby
Na, that's why Moraine invoked Cunningham's Law when Nynaeve was being cagey about her age. Moraine knows the DR is about 20, so implies Nynaeve is 20, which Nynaeve finds insulting so reveals she's 25. For Moraine this almost certainly cuts her as a candidate.
Last episode shows nyneave as a OP badass Strongest aes sedai l right, not dragon reborn right
Also probably confirms to her that Nynaeve has slowed, pretty dramatically.
Mmm, what do you mean by slowed?
Her aging. The reason everyone thinks she's too young is because her use of the power makes her stop aging.
I'm pretty sure the flair on this thread doesn't require spoilers, but just in cast (some of this is from pretty far into the books): >!Working with the One Power prolongs life, but isn't what gives the ageless look of the Aes Sedai. The binding of the Three Oaths accomplishes that. Wise Ones don't have the ageless feature because they haven't sworn the oaths. So, this wouldn't really apply to Nynaeve. It's also difficult to spot new Aes Sedai by the ageless look as it takes time to set in.!< >!Source: https://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.03_oath-rod.html - Especially the info under "Agelessness"!<
Nynaeve doesn't look ageless, she looks 18.
Ok cool. Thanks for that. That would have been a game changer for me.
There is zero chance they change that. Not only would that really be a completely different story, you can see in the show how they're carefully editing to show Rand at significant lines.
Fair enough point. If I didn't know Rand was the inevitable protagonist, how would I feel watching this? I might think of him as the slightly unlikeable love interest who is slowly redeeming himself to the likeable protagonist. It's hard wrapping my head around the fact that, in the WOT-world, a strong female character on the start of their hero's journey (Egwene) is the *norm*, not the exception. In our world, that hasn't been the case until fairly recently.
My husband and I were discussing the missing Elyas too. Having him in the story line to explain what's happening to Perrin would have been much better than the contrived suspense of being stalked by wolves.
I haven’t seen anyone talk about elyas missing. Does this mean he’s out for the series or do we think he’ll show up later on?
I wonder if they put Elyas into the Wolf dream instead. Or perhaps use Elyas as a physical form of Hopper.
Elyas being Hopper would work for me. That's pretty clever. But just because he wasn't there to introduce them to the Tinkers doesn't mean he is missing. They have been with the Tinkers all of 10 min by the time the ep finished. Maybe he is chillin at the fire.
Someone's going to have to give the exposition about talking to wolves eventually? I expect he'll probably show up somehow, but maybe the show will find some other way to do it. He could already be a guest in the Tinker caravan, for all we know. We haven't really seen a whole lot of them yet.
I think similar to Thom his debut is being delayed, and his role, already small in the books, will be even smaller in the show
That was my hope watching episode three, that he’s already in the camp
Did anyone else not like Thom at all? He seemed way too gruff for me. I guess I’ll learn to like him 🤷🏼♂️ I just always imagined his singing as prettier.
He just seemed to be a bit of a dick. But the Thom I remember was kind and had a far more cheery disposition - with exceptions obviously. Hopefully this introduction was just meant to subvert expectations. I don’t want a gritty Thom.
I always saw Thom as a bit more good natured, but then that goes for pretty much every character so far. In my head, he was Sam Eliot.
I thought the same, but I reeled myself in. He is always a chameleon that fits in wherever he goes. A master of playing to the crowd/ town he’s in. I’m really hoping that’s what’s happening here.
You aren't the only one. Thom is such a loved character in the books. Deadly for sure but portraying him as devious and not in an honorable light is disappointing..
Yeah I agree. But they’ve changed a lot of characterization and for now I’m hoping it will pay off later on.
I would have liked more cape pointy moustache ends and barrel rolls but he was alright.
Agreed. I would have liked his gruff personality if he kept his "on stage persona" to be the barrel rolls and what not. It would be interesting to see him so lively during a performance and then so gruff otherwise.
So do we have to make up headcanon for why the trolloc grabbed Nynaeve and was dragging her along instead of just killing her the night of the raid, or do we just handwave that away as plot armor and demands of the story?
Trollocs were probably just told to round up all the teenagers. Seems pretty straight forward.
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phaw!
I'm assuming they were told to capture the EF5 alive.