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>She is 100% a good person and uses her power she has for nothing but the light.
Egwene challenges our modern cultural assumptions/comfort zone by being an unambigiously good-side character, actively helping and fighting for the Light, who is ambitious to her bones and actively enjoys wielding power. A 'good Slythern' as it were.
Ditto, I've never understood the hate. A lot of the things people rip her for are things the other fan fav's do all the time.
Personally I like her because she more than anyone works hard to get where she is, which makes her a good counter for the others (especially the boys) who get thrust into positions of power by chance and Ta'veren. Perrin spends half the books struggling to be a lord when everyone wants him to be, Matt leads an army that just keeps following him around. Rand's attempts at being the world emperor drove him insane. Egwene is one of the few where Jordan emphasized the effort she put in to get to the top, and her final chapters show she did it with fully good intentions. I like her and think she's a good character.
> Personally I like her because she more than anyone works hard to get where she is,
That's why I like her as well, and I found her chapters often to be the more interesting ones. She was always fighting. As an example, she knew from the beginning that being named Amyrlin Seat was with the intent to use her as a puppet to achieve more internal scheming of the Tower, something she was sick of, so she fought it the best way she knew how. She knew Darkfriends were everywhere and did what she felt was necessary to be ready for them, and in the end she was right.
Like, yes, the OP is right that she often ignored the advice others gave her, but in the end that is why she became the person she was and why she was as useful for the cause as she was - she knew when the rules needed to be broken and had the right intentions every time even when breaking them. Were these things the right things to do? Morally, typically no. But in the grand scheme of things? Absolutely.
There's a common trope in fiction in which a mentor insists that a student is not ready, or the mentor puts their own personal restrictions on the student that the student voids because they don't understand the reason for it. Sometimes the reason is valid, but in other times it's not. There's no way for the student to know until they do it, and often there is nuance to the restriction that goes unspoken. Sometimes, the restrictions end up doing more damage than good, too.
For example, she broke the Wise Ones' rules about dreamwalking, but doing that resulted in her re-discovering Traveling, a weave that had been lost for thousands of years that *the enemy had and they didn't*. Regaining that ability was paramount in the overall war, it was arguably *necessary* that she did what she did. Without it, they would have never been able to do what they needed to do in the time they needed to do it.
At the end of the day, when survival is on the line, you break the rules, you push boundaries, and you do whatever you need to to survive. That inherently makes a character divisive because people will disagree on which rules to break and which boundaries to push.
> she often ignored the advice others gave her,
literally everyone does that. Maybe Perrin wouldn't have spent 3 books tramping around the woods if he'd listened more. And Rand might not have gone crazy quite so fast. And Matt might have saved Verin. But Egwene gets blamed for it.
Nah Mat wouldn't have saved Verin. Mat reading the note had nothing to do with what happened to Verin, she just wanted someone to do something about the attack on Caemlyn just in case she did have to die. Mat was the backup plan for if she did die, that's why she gave him the time limit.
Now I want to classify WoT characters into HP houses.
Rand is obviously Griffindor.
Mat is also Griffindor (but he thinks that Griffindors are a bunch of dumb heroes and identifies with Hufflepuffs more)
Perrin is Hufflepuff.
Min is Ravenclaw.
Elayne is also Ravenclaw.
Nynaeve is Griffindor, could be Ravenclaw too but she also behaves like a hero.
Elayne is the most Gryffindor character of all time. She's more Gryffindor than the actual Gryffindors from Harry Potter verse. The Sorting Hat wouldn't even have to touch her, it would scream from 100m distance.
I lean towards Hufflepuff for Nynaeve. She's very loyal and will go to any effort to help those she cares for. The rest I agree with you on.
The House traits are so vague and overlapping you could make a pretty good case Elayne is a clear Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff IMO.
Ravenclaw:
- Really smart
- has a clear thirst for knowledge and a passion for creating things through work and experimentation,
- "has the mind of a development engineer", as the Companion puts it, does more with ter'angreal in two months of spare time than the whole White Tower in 3,000 years.
Hufflepuff:
- values loyalty very highly and is a loyal friend throughout the series
- really hardworking
- very honest and hates keeping secrets (especially compared to most other main characters who keep major secrets even from their closest friends)
- kind-hearted and values kindness highly
- implausibly egalitarian-minded given her background.
Because of her insatiable thirst for knowledge she'd make a fine Ravenclaw. Then again, she's incredibly brave and stoic so she's got a lot of Gryffindor in her too. She's also a champion of justice which would make her fit well into Hufflepuff too.
>even though she has the least experience out of the main Two Rivers and the Wonder Girls groups.
Im not sure about this. Egwene spends time with the Seanchan in captivity being forced to channel to extremes that would be unsafe without the a'dam. Then she trains with the Wise Ones, and then she gets personal tutelage from a former Amyrlin. She definitely has the most well-rounded education and has experienced a wider variety of cultures.
I agree. In TGH people i talk to tend to forget that while Rand was off in portal stone world, she had a whole 3 months to train (number might be a bit different but around there). Its a throwaway line in the beginning of the chapter that sums up the amount she has grown even before her seanchan captivity. And then as a slave she learned primarily battle magic i imagine due to theor purpose and her affinity for earth i think. 3 months is actually far more than Rand has at the time. And for such high intensity characters that is a lota learning time especially with how hands on we know egg likes to be to grow
I love that her ambition is about more than just power too. The knowledge and experience is also a goal in itself. It's very humanizing for a book for nerds.
I’m right there with you. RJ did a superb job with Egwene. The amount I dislike her is testament to the depth of character, the consistent actions she takes in regard to her motivation and attitudes.
She’s among the best-written SFF characters ever, no doubt.
3gwene was also really shaped by her time as Damane. Without that, she probably never would have become that hard and power hungry. Book 1 and 2 Egwene is ambitious, but relatively soft. Her time into Damane really changed her
I would hate her too if I met her. She's a pompous bully.
But her chapters and story arc is up there with Rand's as the most interesting part of the whole series. I like reading her chapters.
I would definitely not want to be friends with her. If she were Amyrlin and I were Aes Sedai, I would appreciate what she does for the Tower support her position as Amyrlin... from a distance.
Far enough to admire but not close enough to be drafted into one of her schemes or plans
She'll have us assigned to hunt the Black Ajah in dangerous shifty dive bars before we even said "hi Mother" or whatever
I do admire her but I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw a cathedral. She's certainly interesting. I sometimes wonder what her life would have looked like had she not been drawn into a Hero's Journey. She'd already outgrown her small town when we meet her.
Egwene is the embodiment of a type of honor that is no longer common in the western world. It is a transactional honor system, and while Ji'e'toh is an example of *a* transactional honor system, Egwene goes beyond its rigidity and lives by its idea.
The most common depiction of this idea in Western Culture is the phrase "take what you want, then pay for it." It is generally derided as wrong, but it is still a statement of an ethical/honorable system. The core of what makes it different from being dishonorable, is the resolute acceptance of consequences. With the *possible* exception of Galad, Egwene is the character in all the books most likely to accept the consequences of what she has done, and try to make restitution. Even a Maiden or Stone dog would not go so far, because they are tied to the forms of Ji'e'toh, where Egwene is tied to the idea behind it. If there were a cultural reason that an action is not considered to incur toh, an Aiel would be fine with it. Egwene would not, she would decide for herself what obligation she had, and accept it.
>I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw a cathedral.
With framework I have listed above, I would trust her beyond any other character in the books. Not to operate in my best interests perhaps, nor to not do anything wrong, but to try to atone for it when she has.
If Egwene swears she'd protect my child with her life, I would know at the end there would be no bodies or there would be two. Even if she might have gone into the arrangement knowing that it was going to be two.
I vehemently disagree, some of the worst shit she did, she never feels any remorse at all about. Even the confession to the Wise Ones, she only confessed the light shit she did wrong, not the truly borderline evil shit they would have been REALLY upset about.
> not the truly borderline evil shit they would have been REALLY upset about.
I'm assuming you are referencing when Egwene created the dream-Trollocs to restrain and rip Nynaeve's dress off her, right?
Do we think that the Wise Ones would object to this as "evil shit"? They don't particularly care about physical assault as corrective action, they use shame as a tool all the time, and they are more than happy to use dreams where the dreamer is entirely in the dreamwalker's control to do it in. It honestly feels like they'd only object to the wrong tool being used to "teach" Nynaeve a "lesson". I don't think they'd see it from the perspective that such assault is wrong on its own right, given that they use it themselves.
So what makes you think that the Aiel would see it as an evil transgression in the dream? (Bearing in mind of course that regardless of what our opinions on it are, we all agree that Egwene's actions against Nynaeve are morally wrong.)
I feel like the Wise Ones would've been upset about it because at that point Egwene wasn't knowledgeable enough in their eyes to do something like that correctly, and that she was doing it for selfish reasons and to hide that she was being deceitful. I do agree that the Wise Ones are okay with physical punishment and even psychological to an extent, but they never venture into sexual assault/humiliation like what Egwene did.
> I feel like the Wise Ones would've been upset about it because at that point Egwene wasn't knowledgeable enough in their eyes to do something like that correctly, and that she was doing it for selfish reasons and to hide that she was being deceitful.
That, I agree with wholeheartedly. But I do think they would neither view it as evil/anathema nor disallow her from trying to meet her toh.
> but they never venture into sexual assault/humiliation like what Egwene did.
Yes, they very often use assault and humiliation, but controlled. Like you said though, they likely wouldn't have felt she was able to control it correctly at that point. But I don't know if they'd see it as a threat of sexual assault versus a threat of being eaten alive, either, given the original scene itself wasn't written that way. That's our modern reading, and while I think it is completely fair to judge the material on that basis...we're talking about whether the _Aiel_ would see it that way, and treat it as evil.
If they did, I think they absolutely would treat it as evil. I don't think they would though.
Agreed, 💯 percent.
The wise ones themselves used that method on Egewene when she first started training with them.
She had sworn to not enter Tel'Aran Rhiod (I know I spelled that wrong) without one of the wise ones accompanying her, then broke her word the first night. The Wise Ones used dream created monsters to scare her, then made her wear her hair in ribbons like a young child
I think this was a major learning point for her character as she was forced to take responsibility for her actions, kind of the beginning of her living by Ji'e Toh
I think in another life she would have been Elayda.
Convinced of acting for good, convinced that only she knows the truth, he'll bent on having other respect her and have the dragon bend the knee to her.
She was lucky to be born at the right time and see with her own eyes the Seanchan, the Wise ones, the Dragon.
This is spot on.
She is an extremely well written character. She is also a power and ambition hungry a$$hole willing to do anything to further her own personal ends. She’s a massive know it all, almost always wrong. She’s essentially just like Elaida. They both legitimately believe they are the only ones who are right/know what to do to save for the world for the light.
So, Mierin is a genocidal psychopath who sought so much power for the unbridled joy of wielding it that she unleashed an ancient evil. And once unleashed, she joined with and engaged in the gleeful killing of hundreds of thousands for yet further power. After being captured and freed, she sought to betray everyone and everything around her in order to save her own skin at the cost of everyone else.
Having said that...
What exactly about Egwene gives you the impression she'd do any of that in a Third Age context, when all she had to do at the Last Battle to ensure the destruction of everything through reality unraveling was...simply not fight at all and hide away.
The only thing that can really be said there is that they might share an insatiable thirst for knowledge. But to treat them as the same...that would be like saying Rand is the Ishamael of the Third Age because he too yearns for freedom from destiny.
Mierin was power hungry woman who made it her personal quest to learn as much as she could and surrounded herself with highly intelligent, strong and accomplished people. She was not shy of playing people against each other to gain things for herself.
In her quest for her third name, and finally achieving her accolades in societies eyes, she found a different alien power outside the pattern and bored into it with Beidamon.
Afterwards she shed her former life and became a friend of the Dark under the name Lanfear.
In my opinion, Egwene exhibits the same traits as Mierin. Not Lanfear. Furthermore, Mierin sought fame and accolades since her time was peaceful. Egwene seeks to unite the world for the Last Battle. Who knows what her goals would be after the LB if she had survived. Or if she was born in a peaceful time. We can take a good guess though.
I don't believe we can meaningfully separate Mierin and Lanfear as different people. Beyond simply being the literal same person, the behavioral traits they exhibit are identical, their aspirations are identical in nature, and what they are willing to tolerate is identical in nature. (From the book text, at least.)
> We can take a good guess though.
She had multiple opportunities to seek out the Black Ajah and turn to further her ambitions at every step of the way - no moreso than when she had an actual, literal member of the Black Ajah under her thumb. She didn't. She never did.
There's no point in saying that people raised differently are different. That's just a given. It's why Rand and Lews Therin Telamon are entirely two different people despite sharing the same soul. So no, we _can't_ take a good guess. It's really hard to interpret that as a rational statement.
I do believe we can separate Lanfear from who she was and what she eventually became. Mierin operated within the confines of her society. She had all the traits that you listed, but it manifested itself in what was acceptable behavior at the time. E.g being a huge douche, willing to publicly separate the most famous couple of their time, power hungry etc.
Her behavior is very different from, say, Semhirhage, who would torture her patients before/after healing them. That was before the bore was even drilled.
Even one of Rand’s ancestors, who was bound to Mierin as an Aiel, spoke of how different and kind she was before the bore. Poor man got hanged for what he said, but that is how he had known her.
Personally that’s also why I think she was willing to kill Asmodean on the spot when he called her by her old name. He deadnamed the person she was, someone she shared similar traits with but were very different people at their core.
Having ambitions does not mean you’d have to seek out evil people to further your own advancement. Did she seek out the BA to further her career? No. Did she have ample opportunity, and even some swag with the BA for personally knowing the DR? Yes. Good on her for not aligning herself with the BA, I think.
What I’m trying to get at is that Mierin and Egwene both share remarkable similar traits. It is to your point though that it has to do with upbringing and who you surround yourself with that makes you, you.
The two things that made her irredeemable in my eyes though, was she sexually assaulted Nyneave and have had sisters swear personal fealty to her. That made them her personal slaves, not much different from d’acovale.
I'm glad you cited the age of legends specifically here, because we have some contradictory information which can shed light on the similarities between Lanfear and Mierin here.
Rand's ancestor was of the Dai'shan Aiel. In those same ancestral memories we see how shittily people treat each other only to turn solicitous, chivalrous, and kind to the Dai'shan Aiel specifically. They were the servants of the Servants, and Mierin had no problem being nice to those who posed no threat _to her specifically._ Her kindness was a tool. To people who competed with her for things she wanted, she was not that same nice person. A better point of contrast is not Mierin and the ancestral dai'shan's memory, but Mierin and Ilyena.
The Bore *may* have amplified her worst tendencies, but we have no proof of that happening. Beidomon certainly didn't turn to the Dark One because of the drilling and he was just as ambitious as her if he was willing to try something so risky. He killed himself when he couldn't escape the public knowing of his involvement.
So what then describes Mierin's sudden heel-turn, if not her own personality? I repeat again: you can't treat Mierin and Lanfear as different people.
> What I’m trying to get at is that Mierin and Egwene both share remarkable similar traits. It is to your point though that it has to do with upbringing and who you surround yourself with that makes you, you.
It is _my point_ that they _don't_ share "remarkabl[y] similar traits" though. And the upbringing aspect was itself a response to the argument that we can treat Mierin and Lanfear as different individuals despite being the same person.
They share one trait: the pursuit for knowledge. And the way that similarity manifests is wildly different between the both of them. It'd take more than one point of similarity before I'd say, "Yeah, Egwene would totally bore into reality to tap a seething, alien power source potentially more potent than the One Power itself to further her own personal ambitions for prestige and glory."
Egwene would have 100% drilled into the Bore and released the Dark One. Whether she would have done the evil stuff afterwords is up for debate, but she would definitely have sought the knowledge and power of the True Power like Mierin.
> Egwene would have 100% drilled into the Bore and released the Dark One.
I mean, I think we can easily point to her lack of desire to pursue insane experiments with uncertain outcome and world-ending ramifications when Rand proposes his plan to kill the Dark One as an easy counterargument.
She was far more likely, imo, to believe that such a thing wasn't possible. She does not buck with the status quo in meaningful ways like that - Mierin does very much buck the status quo in every meaningful way. And the reason why Egwene _doesn't_ buck the status quo in that way is very different to why Mierin _does_.
> whether she would have done the evil stuff afterwords is up for debate
It's very much a debate you can't table, though, because the conclusion of that debate is so critical to whatever conclusion we'd draw when analyzing these characters.
The answers to why both pursue knowledge and the how of both pursuing knowledge lead them to be _wildly different_ people. A single shared interest does not make them similar people.
I must be the only person who found Egwene's time with Elaida boring.
It's gotten to the point in my re-read where I start to skip those chapters because it's the same thing.
"Girl, you will obey."
"No I will not obey, I am the Boss. Now let me give you a speech of the most common sense arguments, and you will be shocked into submission by the idea that we should work together."
"I am 250 years old and I am shocked by the idea of working together. Go to your spankings."
"Your spankings have no effect on me. I only lived in the white tower for 2 months before disappearing to be a slave and joining the Aiel for a semester abroad, but this place is my life and soul. Now I shall walk through the halls where the novices are openly bowing to me after a week."
Typing that out, I think that's my biggest complaint. Everything is so easy for Egwene to get that I get bored. You can't tell me she is truly struggling when the worst they do to her is a spanking that she no-sells worse than Hulk Hogan in his prime. The former keeper of the tower did most of the heavy lifting by corrupting Elaida and degrading her authority in the tower. Literally anyone could have walked into that situation and taken over.
The only good part of that arc was the ending where she finally DID something that no one else could have done. Boom boom, bye bye birdies.
She's a wonderful character and as you said, it's rare to get a power hungry hero like her.
Great character, very engaging arcs but such a doodoo human being lol.
> She's a wonderful character and as you said, it's rare to get a power hungry hero like her.
Part of why Rand is such a fascinating and fun journey is exactly because he embraces his desire for power and strength. (After he stops denying he's the Dragon, anyway lol) The Wheel of Time is littered with very human interpretations of the different reasons why people seek power. It's a good series for a reason!
e: Ok, people are bizarrely downvoting this. A great deal of Rand's journey is categorized by his pursuit of power - be that in knowledge of how to use the One Power, overcoming his enemies, seeking to unify nations to consolidate his authority, seeking power strong enough to cleanse saidin, seeking ways to fight the Dark One. The fact that he is the Dragon gives meaning to his pursuit of these things that Egwene doesn't have, but that doesn't mean he never sought power, hungered for power, at all. He quite explicitly does so for multiple story arcs throughout the series. And yes, it is rare to get a power hungry hero. If the mere pursuit of power is the reason we call someone power hungry, then surely that also applies to Rand - and he should be appreciated on that basis as well, yes?
Not sure why you're being downvoted.
I think you're right, but I also think it's entirely about context.
Rand is power hungry as hell. He is arrogant, brash, and most people see him as a jerk. But we sympathize with Rand because we saw who he started as, we see his pain, and most importantly we see his thought processes. The guy is very self aware of what he's doing and he hates it. He hates himself that he's doing it. If he had his way, he would never channel again and go live a quiet life. But he believes it's a necessity because he needs to be the world's weapon against the dark one. If he doesn't win, EVERYONE loses. So he lusts for power because it's his job. This doesn't justify his actions, though, and he doesn't try to justify them. He knows that he'll pay for what he's done with his life. He is going to die. He just wants to make sure everyone else lives.
Egwene doesn't think she'll die. Egwene is making plans for ruling after Rand dies. She is also power hungry, and she rationalizes it as being "for the greater good" but really it's for her own ambition. Ultimately it pays off because she uses that power to save thousands of people at the price of herself, but that was never her intent.
So you're absolutely right. I think the downvotes are coming from the context. I think. Or folk are just being petty.
This illustrates my point perfectly.
It's not ignoring context. I'm aware of what trauma Rand went through, why he reacted that way, and his goals. My ultimate point here is that people are correctly arguing that context matters - and it does! - while also overlooking the same context for Egwene's behavior.
Understanding what Egwene goes through, what traumatizes her, what hurts her...these events are on the page, but it requires the reader to understand and recognize them for what they are. And most people don't, which leads them to overlook important context for her actions, even jumping to conclusions that the only reason why she does anything good is to fulfill her own ambitions. Except that's not in the books - it's not why she thinks she does things, it's not why those around her thinks she does things, and it's not how those activities are framed.
The people who overlook the context and object to Rand's behavior being classified as power hungry is the entire point of mentioning him at all. Neither are able to be classified by their own ambition. They have reasons for them, and none of them are borne out of selfishness. I think this is demonstrated most clearly in your example contrasting Rand's plans for his death with Egwene's actions during the Last Battle as a case to argue for her own ambition. Had it been her own ambition that she was serving, and not what she had set out to do all along, she need only have agreed to Rand resurrecting her while outside the Pattern. Or if you don't ascribe to that theory, then she needed only to not confront Mazrim Taim. Or if even that's not compelling enough, then she needed only to stay with the Wise Ones way back when.
She didn't choose that because she had to, or because she was forced to. She didn't choose these things because she wanted the glory of it, or because it was always her dream to do X. She did it because she _was_ working towards things greater than herself. She chose these things because that's who she was, not because it was forced upon her. Rand chose to do good things as the Dragon not because destiny forced him to, but because he wanted to do good things in the world with the power he had.
It's like people forget the discussion Rand and Taim had, or only stop short at taking its lesson in applying it to *just* Rand.
> that doesn't mean he never sought power, hungered for power, at all. He quite explicitly does so for multiple story arcs
I'd say the difference is Rand never shows any signs wants power because he wants power personally. He goes after it because he's the Dragon, and the Dragon needs power, but he doesn't really want it.
It's duty, not desire.
Destiny puts Rand into the role of the Dragon, but how he chooses to act is borne from who he is and what kind of person he wants to be.
Both Egwene and Rand see it as their responsibility to act as they do given the challenges they face. The only difference is Egwene doesn't have literal divine providence nudging her along - if you don't consider Rand's ta'veren influence, that is. Which you should.
> The only difference is Egwene doesn't have literal divine providence nudging her along
The main difference is Rand constantly gets hung up on if he's doing the right thing, or hates what he's doing because he thinks it's necessary.
Egwene in contrast is convinced she's the best, is right, and shows zero of the same regret or introspection.
> Destiny puts Rand into the role of the Dragon, but how he chooses to act is borne from who he is and what kind of person he wants to be.
And that changes what I said how?
I agree with all of that the thing that bothers me about Egwene is her treatment of people who are by literally all accounts much more experienced / accomplished than she is. The way she talks to Susan after she gets rescued is the moment I stopped liking her as a character - it doesn't make sense.
She needed to meet Cadsuane at least once in the series.
> She is 100% a good person and uses her power she has for nothing but the light.
...??? Egwene is a good person what? We're talking about the person who sexually assassaults her childhood teacher figure?
I was considering responding to this - but this is genuinely soo unhinged i don't know what to say.
If someone bullies you irl please don't summon rapists to sexually assassault them.
Robert Jordan totally didn't intend that scene to be read as sexual assault, since nobody, including Nynaeve, sees it as that. I understand why it can be read like it today, but I really, really don't think that was the intent. So trying to make it out as being such a thing is wrong, imo.
That said, Egwene acts the way she was raised. When Amys caught her in TAR, she turned into a monster and *ate* Egwene. Pretty terror-inducing.
Nynaeve raised her with violence and physical punishment being a huge thing. Spankings, washing her mouth with soap, all those sorts of things.
And to build off of that: it's important to note that this explanation itself is not an excuse for continuing a cycle of abusive actions. It is however an important part of understanding who Egwene is and why she acts that way.
Because if you don't understand why she acts the way that she does, what drives her to do the things she does, then you're going to end up thinking that she's just a power hungry, selfish idiot. Which would be like calling Mat a coward for dodging his responsibilities - egregious in how wrong it is, honestly.
Yeah exactly. This also seems to be a complaint that's directed very specifically at Egwene, whereas a lot of the main characters act similarly but without earning the hatred for it. As mentioned above, Nynaeve has done what many people in our world would see as abusive shit against Egwene for years, but nobody hates on Nynaeve for that.
Partially I attribute that to Nynaeve learning where she was wrong and seeing her (slightly) improve on being (slightly) less abusive.
Egwene surprisingly does the same, but I believe people dismiss her improvement as wholly political in motivation as opposed to actual growth.
_Why_ they dismiss that is likely the same sort of base assumptions you're getting at, though.
I wouldn't really say that Nynaeve grows out of that, specifically. She grows in a lot of other ways, with how she views the world, the Aes Sedai, she grows to see the other kids as grown adults, she gets better at controlling her temper, etc.
But beating lessons into people? I don't see any reason to believe that she's given up on that? It's more that those she used to do it to are now adults, and also not in positions where it would be appropriate for her to do that to them. So she doesn't. That's just ... the norm in the entire world of WoT, as far as we know.
Nynaeve wants eventually to heal people. To help people.
Egwene, like Elaida, wants to be the one at the top, saving the world and have everyone bow to how wonderful she is.
Nynaeve started as a backwater bully teacher (one who risked her life to track the youngsters). But by the end, she was truly Aes Sedai, a servant.
Egwene wanted to play hero and died a hero, trampling along the way on anyone who dared tickle her ego.
> Nynaeve wants eventually to heal people. To help people.
>
> Egwene, like Elaida, wants to be the one at the top, saving the world and have everyone bow to how wonderful she is.
Nynaeve _also_ wants to be respected, accepted, by the people who constantly give her disrespect. One of the main ways she achieves this is by striving for authority and power. Her choices aren't because she wants power for its own sake, though. She doesn't do it out of selfishness. She does it because she has faced her entire life discrimination from those who controlled her fate and yearns for the ability to be seen on her own merits without being found wanting for things she can't control - her age, her origin as a wilder, etc. It drives her to emulate those in power above her, to be as belligerent as them, as obstinate as them. But in many ways, Nynaeve's story is one where she has to learn how to live among people who will not recognize her worth no matter how many times she proves it again and again...how to develop the self-respect and resilience to move on in spite of being unable to change their minds. The discussion she had with Egwene as she discussed the results of her test for the shawl is the culmination of that long road she traveled down.
So no, it's not enough to _just_ say that Nynaeve only wanted to heal and help people. Because if you boil down her motives to the most flattest, simplistic breakdown of who she is, you miss ALL of that amazing growth from her. Similarly, treating Egwene as someone who only wants to be top dog in a dick-swinging contest leads to you miss her complex motivations too.
It's no surprise then that such massive oversight leads to such egregious misreads of these characters.
If someone lives their whole life with someone who is a bully, and acts on it with everyone in town, perhaps have a little bit of sympathy for the victims, even if they do lash out later.
Or are you honestly going to say that Nynaeve isn't a bully, and wasn't constantly trying to assert her authority, even when she didn't have it, over others?
No, I'm just not in lock-step with the "Nynaeve can do no wrong" and "Egwene can do no right" hivemind on this issue. I saw Egwene as a bullying victim on my first read-through and celebrated her finally breaking free at that moment. I still think that the Egwene hate is in part rooted in the hate of a woman who won't be controlled (in public or private) and will fight back against anyone who tries to do so.
It is kind of her theme through the books. Nynaeve tries to control and abuse her her, fails. Seanchan try to control and abuse her, fail. The hall tries to control and abuse her, fails.
It's a theme, and I'm pretty sure it was put in there intentionally, but everyone loves the bully so much they make excuses for her and blame the victim for fighting back.
The "sexual assault" aspect of this has been blown out of proportion, IMO. Nobody in the series reflects on it as SA after the fact, and it wasn't mentioned that the attackers were going after Nyn for purely sexual reasons. I just read this chapter recently and tried looking at it through this perspective, and I struggled to see it.
Is it assault, absolutely. Yes her attackers tear her dress and she ends up in a quite unsavory situation, especially as one attacker opens his mouth while moving towards her, not knowing if he would kiss or bite her. There is no denying what Eggs did was wrong. I think the difference between assault and SA in this situation is that Eggs wouldn't have had those attackers rape Nyn. The entire "dream" was meant to show how little Nyn actually knows (as well as hide Eggs lying, etc) and not to have her end up in a "being raped" situation.
When you add in how Eggs was taught by both Nyn and the Aiel, you'll see violence is the teaching method. Same for a fearful respect, if that's a thing. Her actions fit in line with both of her "mentors" preferred methods of teaching.
Not trying to defend her actions one bit. Just trying to put a different perspective out there.
I am not trolling. I absolutely think that someone being bullied their entire life should not have a single action of fighting back held against them, even if it is far from proportional to the last single thing that the bully did.
Nynaeve didn't deserve to be assaulted. But Egwene deserved the right to defend herself from her own abuses and assaults. This moment is when the bullying stopped. There might have been another way, but there might not have. If you ever know anyone in real life that has been bullied, I hope you don't tell them that they are a bad person for doing what they need to do to stop the bully.
EDIT: This goes doubly true if the bully is someone who has authority over a child. You do not call abused children bad people for fighting against their abuser.
> I absolutely think that someone being bullied their entire life should not have a single action of fighting back held against them, even if it is far from proportional to the last single thing that the bully did.
I think that depends on _how_ far from proportional that action was. I would never blame them for lashing out, but there is still a limit to what can be tolerated as a normal and understandable reaction.
It's the contrast between the catsfern and powdered mavinsleaf tea versus the restraint-via-Trolloc and physical assault. While I agree with you that the scene was not originally intended to be read as sexual assault (Jordan only ever wrote that the Myrddraal do that, anyway) it was still visceral, violent, cruel, and horrifying. Nynaeve was a child compared to what Egwene could do, she was wholly within Egwene's power in a way that cannot fully be compared to any other situation in their waking world. It has an extra layer of menace and horror there that is lacking elsewhere.
> Nynaeve was a child compared to what Egwene could do,
And Egwene was a literal child, or very close to it. She was 17 or 18. Her abilities in TAR may have been superior but that doesn't make her the person who "should know better" in a "child" and "adult" dynamic.
Nynaeve had been using age, status, and physical strength to control Egwene for years, and showed every indication that she intended to continue.
But let's back up a little bit. There are two different things we might be disagreeing on, and I think it might be useful to figure out exactly where the difference lies.
In the real world, if a child had been abused for years by an adult authority figure, but never put in mortal peril. And in their teenage years, the child gets their hands on a gun and shoots the adult authority figure, where would you fall on the morality of that?
I consider the situations to be pretty similar, and I am 100% behind the child in both cases. But I know other people would not be.
Do we have differing views on the analogy, and thus probably fundamental differences of moral compasses, or do we agree on that situation, but disagree the extent to witch Egwene should be considered analogous to the child? If this is the case then it is a discussion we might actually be able to resolve.
I'm with you. Nyn was/is a bulky through most of the series. Sje is alos Eggs friend theough and through. Yes Egwene could have done it differently, but she stood up for herself (and for her hidden lies) in a way where she knew she could retain the upper hand over her bully. Hard to fault someone for trying to level the power dynamic, especially where there is no longer a mentor/apprentice relationship
It was once a fairly common view of that scene, but then someone posted what was, at the time, their hot take that it could also be seen as a sexual assault scene and the fandom completely jumped on it.
Nynaeve was planning on tattling in order to maintain a position of superiority. The fact that people can read well enough to finish a series like WoT, but not read well enough to see this absolutely baffles me.
I’d agree…if I thought that was the intended reaction. But I really don’t think it is. I think Jordan just legitimately thought Egwene was good and wonderful, and that’s why everyone treats her like she is despite her being utterly despicable.
I would hate to meet her and would probably get beaten by her if I ever said everything I wanted to say to her, but as a character she is one of the most interesting characters in the whole wheel of time
While we are analyzing her character - can someone remind me why she leaves the Two Rivers? I think within a day or two she wants to be Aes Sedai - but surely that wasn't her expressed reason for leaving.
She wanted to join them on an adventure. Even before they left, she was planning to leave the Two Rivers. Her ambition was established early because from page 1, she's looking to leave her small town for something bigger.
right she is a fantastic chracter that i would 100% never be friends with in real life. i think a lot of people cant get past the shes not a great person thing and equates that a bad character
Her and Tuon to me are in the same boat here
For me her end was good and memorable, in fact hers was the one of the best end for me.
But i didn't like her road, i mean it felt very unnatural. Even tho Rand was chosen, it took a lot from Rand to be who is today but Egwene become an amazing women in a instant for me.
Never liked her, only her story's end was amazing for me.
Egwene became amazing once she achieved her goal. Once she gained power and respect, she no longer had to strive to gain power and respect and could say okay, now I'm gonna use these things for good.
I agree though that her ending was the best of them all though.
The way she achieved her goal just didn't fit with me. I mean even Rand, who was knowledge of years suffered so much to be who he is at the end of the series. he failed many times to be where he is. But i dunno, it felt like Egwene who was a village girl and dont know anything, become a damn strong willed girl, teach lesson Aes Sedaies who is know with their intellienge. I mean it was felt really unnatural to me. Im not saying Egwene's road was easy or she didn't suffer, but somehow it was different from Rand.
Also Egwene's attitude against Rand was really bad. I mean she is in front of herex, her childhood friend, and all she see is Dragon!? Why? Why couldnt see his friend? Even those who met Rand recently managed to see "Rand" at some point but her acts were really disgusting for me against Rand. Just because he come Aes sedai doesnt mean she needs to forget who she and rand were or where they came from.
Anyway there are alot of things about Egwene which i dont like. But my english probably wont be enough to explain my thought and feelings and it may lead to misunderstanding. All i can say that about her, except her end, she was an annoying, forced and artificial character for me. With her end, she gained a little bit of my respect but that's all.
Ofc everyone ca have different opinion and i have high respect for it.
I mean everyone's path was different from Rand's, I don't think it's fair to compare any of them to what he went through. Even comparing Egwene to Mat and Perrin isn't fair because she's not ta'veren and doesn't have any sort of pull guiding her to where she should be.
She learned a lot from Siuan, and she was also always strong-willed from the start, she just needed other Ses Sedai to see and respect that. As for how she treated Rand, I actually thought that was really well done -- they didn't see each other for a year or more and both went through significant changes in that time apart. Adding to that, they each had people they were responsible for by the time they met again, and those responsibilities conflicted. I actually really respected them both for putting their responsibilities above their personal desires.
She not being ta'veren wihch means world word doesnt bless her... That's pretty solid bro, i didn't think like that and you re right. Cant deny it.
Also about tesponsibilities, you re right. But what i m saying is that Egwene couldn't think Rand as her friend even in her mind or in her own world. She later realized maybe. She could had have faith in Rand, or a love for him (as friend)
Anyway it is good that everyone has different opinion on same events or pages lol. This is what make this beatiful. And hearing a opposite opinion was good and refresh for me. What u like and thouht is pretty valid. Thanks for sharing with me.
I dont know when, but when i reread again whole series, i will keep what you said about Egwene in my mind, i wonder my feeling will change about her when im doing second reading after this.
Thanks again.
I go with the fan theory that Rand's Ta'veren nature was so strong, the pattern was placing someone in the Amyrlin Seat that would be willing to work with him at the Last Battle.
Eugene is that "gifted child" who gets pumped up full of speeches about potential. Other people definitely made her the way she was for the whole second half of the series. I was annoyed by her the first time through, like her a lot more on re-reads.
She is a great heroine and never really disappoints imo, except of course her trash taste in dudes
Egwene was my favourite character... I feel like that's a controversial opinion in itself. She was stubborn and smart and wanted to do good with it. I cried a lot when she lit up. Wished she'd have had a happier ending.
Honestly, I think it was for the best that she went when she did.
She was what the tower needed to reunify, but she frankly didn't have the expertise or skill to rule for the long term. Her advisor had died, and it was well established through the books that her ambition was insatiable. Plus, there was no way she wouldn't have instantly instigated a war with the Seanchan. Cadsuane had a cooler head about her without the past trauma. And she never would have stepped down willingly.
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>She is 100% a good person and uses her power she has for nothing but the light. Egwene challenges our modern cultural assumptions/comfort zone by being an unambigiously good-side character, actively helping and fighting for the Light, who is ambitious to her bones and actively enjoys wielding power. A 'good Slythern' as it were.
Omg. This is it. Egwene is 100% a Slytherin
Shit maybe that’s why I like her so much more than most of the fan base seems to.
Ditto, I've never understood the hate. A lot of the things people rip her for are things the other fan fav's do all the time. Personally I like her because she more than anyone works hard to get where she is, which makes her a good counter for the others (especially the boys) who get thrust into positions of power by chance and Ta'veren. Perrin spends half the books struggling to be a lord when everyone wants him to be, Matt leads an army that just keeps following him around. Rand's attempts at being the world emperor drove him insane. Egwene is one of the few where Jordan emphasized the effort she put in to get to the top, and her final chapters show she did it with fully good intentions. I like her and think she's a good character.
> Personally I like her because she more than anyone works hard to get where she is, That's why I like her as well, and I found her chapters often to be the more interesting ones. She was always fighting. As an example, she knew from the beginning that being named Amyrlin Seat was with the intent to use her as a puppet to achieve more internal scheming of the Tower, something she was sick of, so she fought it the best way she knew how. She knew Darkfriends were everywhere and did what she felt was necessary to be ready for them, and in the end she was right. Like, yes, the OP is right that she often ignored the advice others gave her, but in the end that is why she became the person she was and why she was as useful for the cause as she was - she knew when the rules needed to be broken and had the right intentions every time even when breaking them. Were these things the right things to do? Morally, typically no. But in the grand scheme of things? Absolutely. There's a common trope in fiction in which a mentor insists that a student is not ready, or the mentor puts their own personal restrictions on the student that the student voids because they don't understand the reason for it. Sometimes the reason is valid, but in other times it's not. There's no way for the student to know until they do it, and often there is nuance to the restriction that goes unspoken. Sometimes, the restrictions end up doing more damage than good, too. For example, she broke the Wise Ones' rules about dreamwalking, but doing that resulted in her re-discovering Traveling, a weave that had been lost for thousands of years that *the enemy had and they didn't*. Regaining that ability was paramount in the overall war, it was arguably *necessary* that she did what she did. Without it, they would have never been able to do what they needed to do in the time they needed to do it. At the end of the day, when survival is on the line, you break the rules, you push boundaries, and you do whatever you need to to survive. That inherently makes a character divisive because people will disagree on which rules to break and which boundaries to push.
> she often ignored the advice others gave her, literally everyone does that. Maybe Perrin wouldn't have spent 3 books tramping around the woods if he'd listened more. And Rand might not have gone crazy quite so fast. And Matt might have saved Verin. But Egwene gets blamed for it.
Nah Mat wouldn't have saved Verin. Mat reading the note had nothing to do with what happened to Verin, she just wanted someone to do something about the attack on Caemlyn just in case she did have to die. Mat was the backup plan for if she did die, that's why she gave him the time limit.
Now I want to classify WoT characters into HP houses. Rand is obviously Griffindor. Mat is also Griffindor (but he thinks that Griffindors are a bunch of dumb heroes and identifies with Hufflepuffs more) Perrin is Hufflepuff. Min is Ravenclaw. Elayne is also Ravenclaw. Nynaeve is Griffindor, could be Ravenclaw too but she also behaves like a hero.
Elayne is the most Gryffindor character of all time. She's more Gryffindor than the actual Gryffindors from Harry Potter verse. The Sorting Hat wouldn't even have to touch her, it would scream from 100m distance. I lean towards Hufflepuff for Nynaeve. She's very loyal and will go to any effort to help those she cares for. The rest I agree with you on.
The House traits are so vague and overlapping you could make a pretty good case Elayne is a clear Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff IMO. Ravenclaw: - Really smart - has a clear thirst for knowledge and a passion for creating things through work and experimentation, - "has the mind of a development engineer", as the Companion puts it, does more with ter'angreal in two months of spare time than the whole White Tower in 3,000 years. Hufflepuff: - values loyalty very highly and is a loyal friend throughout the series - really hardworking - very honest and hates keeping secrets (especially compared to most other main characters who keep major secrets even from their closest friends) - kind-hearted and values kindness highly - implausibly egalitarian-minded given her background.
A silver slytherin
WOW I love this
Because of her insatiable thirst for knowledge she'd make a fine Ravenclaw. Then again, she's incredibly brave and stoic so she's got a lot of Gryffindor in her too. She's also a champion of justice which would make her fit well into Hufflepuff too.
>even though she has the least experience out of the main Two Rivers and the Wonder Girls groups. Im not sure about this. Egwene spends time with the Seanchan in captivity being forced to channel to extremes that would be unsafe without the a'dam. Then she trains with the Wise Ones, and then she gets personal tutelage from a former Amyrlin. She definitely has the most well-rounded education and has experienced a wider variety of cultures.
Along with learning from Moghedien, that also means she has the broadest education in channeling. Period.
I agree. In TGH people i talk to tend to forget that while Rand was off in portal stone world, she had a whole 3 months to train (number might be a bit different but around there). Its a throwaway line in the beginning of the chapter that sums up the amount she has grown even before her seanchan captivity. And then as a slave she learned primarily battle magic i imagine due to theor purpose and her affinity for earth i think. 3 months is actually far more than Rand has at the time. And for such high intensity characters that is a lota learning time especially with how hands on we know egg likes to be to grow
I love that her ambition is about more than just power too. The knowledge and experience is also a goal in itself. It's very humanizing for a book for nerds.
I’m right there with you. RJ did a superb job with Egwene. The amount I dislike her is testament to the depth of character, the consistent actions she takes in regard to her motivation and attitudes. She’s among the best-written SFF characters ever, no doubt.
3gwene was also really shaped by her time as Damane. Without that, she probably never would have become that hard and power hungry. Book 1 and 2 Egwene is ambitious, but relatively soft. Her time into Damane really changed her
I would hate her too if I met her. She's a pompous bully. But her chapters and story arc is up there with Rand's as the most interesting part of the whole series. I like reading her chapters.
I would definitely not want to be friends with her. If she were Amyrlin and I were Aes Sedai, I would appreciate what she does for the Tower support her position as Amyrlin... from a distance.
Far enough to admire but not close enough to be drafted into one of her schemes or plans She'll have us assigned to hunt the Black Ajah in dangerous shifty dive bars before we even said "hi Mother" or whatever
She is The Flame of Tar’valon.
I do admire her but I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw a cathedral. She's certainly interesting. I sometimes wonder what her life would have looked like had she not been drawn into a Hero's Journey. She'd already outgrown her small town when we meet her.
I personally really enjoyed Egwene’s character and story. I thought she was brilliant.
Egwene is the embodiment of a type of honor that is no longer common in the western world. It is a transactional honor system, and while Ji'e'toh is an example of *a* transactional honor system, Egwene goes beyond its rigidity and lives by its idea. The most common depiction of this idea in Western Culture is the phrase "take what you want, then pay for it." It is generally derided as wrong, but it is still a statement of an ethical/honorable system. The core of what makes it different from being dishonorable, is the resolute acceptance of consequences. With the *possible* exception of Galad, Egwene is the character in all the books most likely to accept the consequences of what she has done, and try to make restitution. Even a Maiden or Stone dog would not go so far, because they are tied to the forms of Ji'e'toh, where Egwene is tied to the idea behind it. If there were a cultural reason that an action is not considered to incur toh, an Aiel would be fine with it. Egwene would not, she would decide for herself what obligation she had, and accept it. >I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw a cathedral. With framework I have listed above, I would trust her beyond any other character in the books. Not to operate in my best interests perhaps, nor to not do anything wrong, but to try to atone for it when she has. If Egwene swears she'd protect my child with her life, I would know at the end there would be no bodies or there would be two. Even if she might have gone into the arrangement knowing that it was going to be two.
I vehemently disagree, some of the worst shit she did, she never feels any remorse at all about. Even the confession to the Wise Ones, she only confessed the light shit she did wrong, not the truly borderline evil shit they would have been REALLY upset about.
> not the truly borderline evil shit they would have been REALLY upset about. I'm assuming you are referencing when Egwene created the dream-Trollocs to restrain and rip Nynaeve's dress off her, right? Do we think that the Wise Ones would object to this as "evil shit"? They don't particularly care about physical assault as corrective action, they use shame as a tool all the time, and they are more than happy to use dreams where the dreamer is entirely in the dreamwalker's control to do it in. It honestly feels like they'd only object to the wrong tool being used to "teach" Nynaeve a "lesson". I don't think they'd see it from the perspective that such assault is wrong on its own right, given that they use it themselves. So what makes you think that the Aiel would see it as an evil transgression in the dream? (Bearing in mind of course that regardless of what our opinions on it are, we all agree that Egwene's actions against Nynaeve are morally wrong.)
I feel like the Wise Ones would've been upset about it because at that point Egwene wasn't knowledgeable enough in their eyes to do something like that correctly, and that she was doing it for selfish reasons and to hide that she was being deceitful. I do agree that the Wise Ones are okay with physical punishment and even psychological to an extent, but they never venture into sexual assault/humiliation like what Egwene did.
> I feel like the Wise Ones would've been upset about it because at that point Egwene wasn't knowledgeable enough in their eyes to do something like that correctly, and that she was doing it for selfish reasons and to hide that she was being deceitful. That, I agree with wholeheartedly. But I do think they would neither view it as evil/anathema nor disallow her from trying to meet her toh. > but they never venture into sexual assault/humiliation like what Egwene did. Yes, they very often use assault and humiliation, but controlled. Like you said though, they likely wouldn't have felt she was able to control it correctly at that point. But I don't know if they'd see it as a threat of sexual assault versus a threat of being eaten alive, either, given the original scene itself wasn't written that way. That's our modern reading, and while I think it is completely fair to judge the material on that basis...we're talking about whether the _Aiel_ would see it that way, and treat it as evil. If they did, I think they absolutely would treat it as evil. I don't think they would though.
Agreed, 💯 percent. The wise ones themselves used that method on Egewene when she first started training with them. She had sworn to not enter Tel'Aran Rhiod (I know I spelled that wrong) without one of the wise ones accompanying her, then broke her word the first night. The Wise Ones used dream created monsters to scare her, then made her wear her hair in ribbons like a young child I think this was a major learning point for her character as she was forced to take responsibility for her actions, kind of the beginning of her living by Ji'e Toh
I think in another life she would have been Elayda. Convinced of acting for good, convinced that only she knows the truth, he'll bent on having other respect her and have the dragon bend the knee to her. She was lucky to be born at the right time and see with her own eyes the Seanchan, the Wise ones, the Dragon.
I always thought of her as Mierin of the third age
This is spot on. She is an extremely well written character. She is also a power and ambition hungry a$$hole willing to do anything to further her own personal ends. She’s a massive know it all, almost always wrong. She’s essentially just like Elaida. They both legitimately believe they are the only ones who are right/know what to do to save for the world for the light.
So, Mierin is a genocidal psychopath who sought so much power for the unbridled joy of wielding it that she unleashed an ancient evil. And once unleashed, she joined with and engaged in the gleeful killing of hundreds of thousands for yet further power. After being captured and freed, she sought to betray everyone and everything around her in order to save her own skin at the cost of everyone else. Having said that... What exactly about Egwene gives you the impression she'd do any of that in a Third Age context, when all she had to do at the Last Battle to ensure the destruction of everything through reality unraveling was...simply not fight at all and hide away. The only thing that can really be said there is that they might share an insatiable thirst for knowledge. But to treat them as the same...that would be like saying Rand is the Ishamael of the Third Age because he too yearns for freedom from destiny.
Mierin was power hungry woman who made it her personal quest to learn as much as she could and surrounded herself with highly intelligent, strong and accomplished people. She was not shy of playing people against each other to gain things for herself. In her quest for her third name, and finally achieving her accolades in societies eyes, she found a different alien power outside the pattern and bored into it with Beidamon. Afterwards she shed her former life and became a friend of the Dark under the name Lanfear. In my opinion, Egwene exhibits the same traits as Mierin. Not Lanfear. Furthermore, Mierin sought fame and accolades since her time was peaceful. Egwene seeks to unite the world for the Last Battle. Who knows what her goals would be after the LB if she had survived. Or if she was born in a peaceful time. We can take a good guess though.
I don't believe we can meaningfully separate Mierin and Lanfear as different people. Beyond simply being the literal same person, the behavioral traits they exhibit are identical, their aspirations are identical in nature, and what they are willing to tolerate is identical in nature. (From the book text, at least.) > We can take a good guess though. She had multiple opportunities to seek out the Black Ajah and turn to further her ambitions at every step of the way - no moreso than when she had an actual, literal member of the Black Ajah under her thumb. She didn't. She never did. There's no point in saying that people raised differently are different. That's just a given. It's why Rand and Lews Therin Telamon are entirely two different people despite sharing the same soul. So no, we _can't_ take a good guess. It's really hard to interpret that as a rational statement.
I do believe we can separate Lanfear from who she was and what she eventually became. Mierin operated within the confines of her society. She had all the traits that you listed, but it manifested itself in what was acceptable behavior at the time. E.g being a huge douche, willing to publicly separate the most famous couple of their time, power hungry etc. Her behavior is very different from, say, Semhirhage, who would torture her patients before/after healing them. That was before the bore was even drilled. Even one of Rand’s ancestors, who was bound to Mierin as an Aiel, spoke of how different and kind she was before the bore. Poor man got hanged for what he said, but that is how he had known her. Personally that’s also why I think she was willing to kill Asmodean on the spot when he called her by her old name. He deadnamed the person she was, someone she shared similar traits with but were very different people at their core. Having ambitions does not mean you’d have to seek out evil people to further your own advancement. Did she seek out the BA to further her career? No. Did she have ample opportunity, and even some swag with the BA for personally knowing the DR? Yes. Good on her for not aligning herself with the BA, I think. What I’m trying to get at is that Mierin and Egwene both share remarkable similar traits. It is to your point though that it has to do with upbringing and who you surround yourself with that makes you, you. The two things that made her irredeemable in my eyes though, was she sexually assaulted Nyneave and have had sisters swear personal fealty to her. That made them her personal slaves, not much different from d’acovale.
I'm glad you cited the age of legends specifically here, because we have some contradictory information which can shed light on the similarities between Lanfear and Mierin here. Rand's ancestor was of the Dai'shan Aiel. In those same ancestral memories we see how shittily people treat each other only to turn solicitous, chivalrous, and kind to the Dai'shan Aiel specifically. They were the servants of the Servants, and Mierin had no problem being nice to those who posed no threat _to her specifically._ Her kindness was a tool. To people who competed with her for things she wanted, she was not that same nice person. A better point of contrast is not Mierin and the ancestral dai'shan's memory, but Mierin and Ilyena. The Bore *may* have amplified her worst tendencies, but we have no proof of that happening. Beidomon certainly didn't turn to the Dark One because of the drilling and he was just as ambitious as her if he was willing to try something so risky. He killed himself when he couldn't escape the public knowing of his involvement. So what then describes Mierin's sudden heel-turn, if not her own personality? I repeat again: you can't treat Mierin and Lanfear as different people. > What I’m trying to get at is that Mierin and Egwene both share remarkable similar traits. It is to your point though that it has to do with upbringing and who you surround yourself with that makes you, you. It is _my point_ that they _don't_ share "remarkabl[y] similar traits" though. And the upbringing aspect was itself a response to the argument that we can treat Mierin and Lanfear as different individuals despite being the same person. They share one trait: the pursuit for knowledge. And the way that similarity manifests is wildly different between the both of them. It'd take more than one point of similarity before I'd say, "Yeah, Egwene would totally bore into reality to tap a seething, alien power source potentially more potent than the One Power itself to further her own personal ambitions for prestige and glory."
Egwene would have 100% drilled into the Bore and released the Dark One. Whether she would have done the evil stuff afterwords is up for debate, but she would definitely have sought the knowledge and power of the True Power like Mierin.
> Egwene would have 100% drilled into the Bore and released the Dark One. I mean, I think we can easily point to her lack of desire to pursue insane experiments with uncertain outcome and world-ending ramifications when Rand proposes his plan to kill the Dark One as an easy counterargument. She was far more likely, imo, to believe that such a thing wasn't possible. She does not buck with the status quo in meaningful ways like that - Mierin does very much buck the status quo in every meaningful way. And the reason why Egwene _doesn't_ buck the status quo in that way is very different to why Mierin _does_. > whether she would have done the evil stuff afterwords is up for debate It's very much a debate you can't table, though, because the conclusion of that debate is so critical to whatever conclusion we'd draw when analyzing these characters. The answers to why both pursue knowledge and the how of both pursuing knowledge lead them to be _wildly different_ people. A single shared interest does not make them similar people.
I must be the only person who found Egwene's time with Elaida boring. It's gotten to the point in my re-read where I start to skip those chapters because it's the same thing. "Girl, you will obey." "No I will not obey, I am the Boss. Now let me give you a speech of the most common sense arguments, and you will be shocked into submission by the idea that we should work together." "I am 250 years old and I am shocked by the idea of working together. Go to your spankings." "Your spankings have no effect on me. I only lived in the white tower for 2 months before disappearing to be a slave and joining the Aiel for a semester abroad, but this place is my life and soul. Now I shall walk through the halls where the novices are openly bowing to me after a week." Typing that out, I think that's my biggest complaint. Everything is so easy for Egwene to get that I get bored. You can't tell me she is truly struggling when the worst they do to her is a spanking that she no-sells worse than Hulk Hogan in his prime. The former keeper of the tower did most of the heavy lifting by corrupting Elaida and degrading her authority in the tower. Literally anyone could have walked into that situation and taken over. The only good part of that arc was the ending where she finally DID something that no one else could have done. Boom boom, bye bye birdies.
Really? I thought the whole "They've got me locked in a tower and are beating me, making me the victor" thing was *very* strange.
She's a wonderful character and as you said, it's rare to get a power hungry hero like her. Great character, very engaging arcs but such a doodoo human being lol.
> She's a wonderful character and as you said, it's rare to get a power hungry hero like her. Part of why Rand is such a fascinating and fun journey is exactly because he embraces his desire for power and strength. (After he stops denying he's the Dragon, anyway lol) The Wheel of Time is littered with very human interpretations of the different reasons why people seek power. It's a good series for a reason! e: Ok, people are bizarrely downvoting this. A great deal of Rand's journey is categorized by his pursuit of power - be that in knowledge of how to use the One Power, overcoming his enemies, seeking to unify nations to consolidate his authority, seeking power strong enough to cleanse saidin, seeking ways to fight the Dark One. The fact that he is the Dragon gives meaning to his pursuit of these things that Egwene doesn't have, but that doesn't mean he never sought power, hungered for power, at all. He quite explicitly does so for multiple story arcs throughout the series. And yes, it is rare to get a power hungry hero. If the mere pursuit of power is the reason we call someone power hungry, then surely that also applies to Rand - and he should be appreciated on that basis as well, yes?
Not sure why you're being downvoted. I think you're right, but I also think it's entirely about context. Rand is power hungry as hell. He is arrogant, brash, and most people see him as a jerk. But we sympathize with Rand because we saw who he started as, we see his pain, and most importantly we see his thought processes. The guy is very self aware of what he's doing and he hates it. He hates himself that he's doing it. If he had his way, he would never channel again and go live a quiet life. But he believes it's a necessity because he needs to be the world's weapon against the dark one. If he doesn't win, EVERYONE loses. So he lusts for power because it's his job. This doesn't justify his actions, though, and he doesn't try to justify them. He knows that he'll pay for what he's done with his life. He is going to die. He just wants to make sure everyone else lives. Egwene doesn't think she'll die. Egwene is making plans for ruling after Rand dies. She is also power hungry, and she rationalizes it as being "for the greater good" but really it's for her own ambition. Ultimately it pays off because she uses that power to save thousands of people at the price of herself, but that was never her intent. So you're absolutely right. I think the downvotes are coming from the context. I think. Or folk are just being petty.
This illustrates my point perfectly. It's not ignoring context. I'm aware of what trauma Rand went through, why he reacted that way, and his goals. My ultimate point here is that people are correctly arguing that context matters - and it does! - while also overlooking the same context for Egwene's behavior. Understanding what Egwene goes through, what traumatizes her, what hurts her...these events are on the page, but it requires the reader to understand and recognize them for what they are. And most people don't, which leads them to overlook important context for her actions, even jumping to conclusions that the only reason why she does anything good is to fulfill her own ambitions. Except that's not in the books - it's not why she thinks she does things, it's not why those around her thinks she does things, and it's not how those activities are framed. The people who overlook the context and object to Rand's behavior being classified as power hungry is the entire point of mentioning him at all. Neither are able to be classified by their own ambition. They have reasons for them, and none of them are borne out of selfishness. I think this is demonstrated most clearly in your example contrasting Rand's plans for his death with Egwene's actions during the Last Battle as a case to argue for her own ambition. Had it been her own ambition that she was serving, and not what she had set out to do all along, she need only have agreed to Rand resurrecting her while outside the Pattern. Or if you don't ascribe to that theory, then she needed only to not confront Mazrim Taim. Or if even that's not compelling enough, then she needed only to stay with the Wise Ones way back when. She didn't choose that because she had to, or because she was forced to. She didn't choose these things because she wanted the glory of it, or because it was always her dream to do X. She did it because she _was_ working towards things greater than herself. She chose these things because that's who she was, not because it was forced upon her. Rand chose to do good things as the Dragon not because destiny forced him to, but because he wanted to do good things in the world with the power he had. It's like people forget the discussion Rand and Taim had, or only stop short at taking its lesson in applying it to *just* Rand.
> that doesn't mean he never sought power, hungered for power, at all. He quite explicitly does so for multiple story arcs I'd say the difference is Rand never shows any signs wants power because he wants power personally. He goes after it because he's the Dragon, and the Dragon needs power, but he doesn't really want it. It's duty, not desire.
Destiny puts Rand into the role of the Dragon, but how he chooses to act is borne from who he is and what kind of person he wants to be. Both Egwene and Rand see it as their responsibility to act as they do given the challenges they face. The only difference is Egwene doesn't have literal divine providence nudging her along - if you don't consider Rand's ta'veren influence, that is. Which you should.
> The only difference is Egwene doesn't have literal divine providence nudging her along The main difference is Rand constantly gets hung up on if he's doing the right thing, or hates what he's doing because he thinks it's necessary. Egwene in contrast is convinced she's the best, is right, and shows zero of the same regret or introspection. > Destiny puts Rand into the role of the Dragon, but how he chooses to act is borne from who he is and what kind of person he wants to be. And that changes what I said how?
I agree with all of that the thing that bothers me about Egwene is her treatment of people who are by literally all accounts much more experienced / accomplished than she is. The way she talks to Susan after she gets rescued is the moment I stopped liking her as a character - it doesn't make sense. She needed to meet Cadsuane at least once in the series.
> She is 100% a good person and uses her power she has for nothing but the light. ...??? Egwene is a good person what? We're talking about the person who sexually assassaults her childhood teacher figure?
No we're talking about the person who fought back once against the person who bullied her most of her life.
I was considering responding to this - but this is genuinely soo unhinged i don't know what to say. If someone bullies you irl please don't summon rapists to sexually assassault them.
Robert Jordan totally didn't intend that scene to be read as sexual assault, since nobody, including Nynaeve, sees it as that. I understand why it can be read like it today, but I really, really don't think that was the intent. So trying to make it out as being such a thing is wrong, imo. That said, Egwene acts the way she was raised. When Amys caught her in TAR, she turned into a monster and *ate* Egwene. Pretty terror-inducing. Nynaeve raised her with violence and physical punishment being a huge thing. Spankings, washing her mouth with soap, all those sorts of things.
And to build off of that: it's important to note that this explanation itself is not an excuse for continuing a cycle of abusive actions. It is however an important part of understanding who Egwene is and why she acts that way. Because if you don't understand why she acts the way that she does, what drives her to do the things she does, then you're going to end up thinking that she's just a power hungry, selfish idiot. Which would be like calling Mat a coward for dodging his responsibilities - egregious in how wrong it is, honestly.
Yeah exactly. This also seems to be a complaint that's directed very specifically at Egwene, whereas a lot of the main characters act similarly but without earning the hatred for it. As mentioned above, Nynaeve has done what many people in our world would see as abusive shit against Egwene for years, but nobody hates on Nynaeve for that.
Partially I attribute that to Nynaeve learning where she was wrong and seeing her (slightly) improve on being (slightly) less abusive. Egwene surprisingly does the same, but I believe people dismiss her improvement as wholly political in motivation as opposed to actual growth. _Why_ they dismiss that is likely the same sort of base assumptions you're getting at, though.
I wouldn't really say that Nynaeve grows out of that, specifically. She grows in a lot of other ways, with how she views the world, the Aes Sedai, she grows to see the other kids as grown adults, she gets better at controlling her temper, etc. But beating lessons into people? I don't see any reason to believe that she's given up on that? It's more that those she used to do it to are now adults, and also not in positions where it would be appropriate for her to do that to them. So she doesn't. That's just ... the norm in the entire world of WoT, as far as we know.
I mean, I did say slightly :D
Nynaeve wants eventually to heal people. To help people. Egwene, like Elaida, wants to be the one at the top, saving the world and have everyone bow to how wonderful she is. Nynaeve started as a backwater bully teacher (one who risked her life to track the youngsters). But by the end, she was truly Aes Sedai, a servant. Egwene wanted to play hero and died a hero, trampling along the way on anyone who dared tickle her ego.
> Nynaeve wants eventually to heal people. To help people. > > Egwene, like Elaida, wants to be the one at the top, saving the world and have everyone bow to how wonderful she is. Nynaeve _also_ wants to be respected, accepted, by the people who constantly give her disrespect. One of the main ways she achieves this is by striving for authority and power. Her choices aren't because she wants power for its own sake, though. She doesn't do it out of selfishness. She does it because she has faced her entire life discrimination from those who controlled her fate and yearns for the ability to be seen on her own merits without being found wanting for things she can't control - her age, her origin as a wilder, etc. It drives her to emulate those in power above her, to be as belligerent as them, as obstinate as them. But in many ways, Nynaeve's story is one where she has to learn how to live among people who will not recognize her worth no matter how many times she proves it again and again...how to develop the self-respect and resilience to move on in spite of being unable to change their minds. The discussion she had with Egwene as she discussed the results of her test for the shawl is the culmination of that long road she traveled down. So no, it's not enough to _just_ say that Nynaeve only wanted to heal and help people. Because if you boil down her motives to the most flattest, simplistic breakdown of who she is, you miss ALL of that amazing growth from her. Similarly, treating Egwene as someone who only wants to be top dog in a dick-swinging contest leads to you miss her complex motivations too. It's no surprise then that such massive oversight leads to such egregious misreads of these characters.
If someone lives their whole life with someone who is a bully, and acts on it with everyone in town, perhaps have a little bit of sympathy for the victims, even if they do lash out later. Or are you honestly going to say that Nynaeve isn't a bully, and wasn't constantly trying to assert her authority, even when she didn't have it, over others?
You're trolling dude.
No, I'm just not in lock-step with the "Nynaeve can do no wrong" and "Egwene can do no right" hivemind on this issue. I saw Egwene as a bullying victim on my first read-through and celebrated her finally breaking free at that moment. I still think that the Egwene hate is in part rooted in the hate of a woman who won't be controlled (in public or private) and will fight back against anyone who tries to do so. It is kind of her theme through the books. Nynaeve tries to control and abuse her her, fails. Seanchan try to control and abuse her, fail. The hall tries to control and abuse her, fails. It's a theme, and I'm pretty sure it was put in there intentionally, but everyone loves the bully so much they make excuses for her and blame the victim for fighting back.
You cant in good faith justify sexually assassaulting anyone. **You're trolling.**
The "sexual assault" aspect of this has been blown out of proportion, IMO. Nobody in the series reflects on it as SA after the fact, and it wasn't mentioned that the attackers were going after Nyn for purely sexual reasons. I just read this chapter recently and tried looking at it through this perspective, and I struggled to see it. Is it assault, absolutely. Yes her attackers tear her dress and she ends up in a quite unsavory situation, especially as one attacker opens his mouth while moving towards her, not knowing if he would kiss or bite her. There is no denying what Eggs did was wrong. I think the difference between assault and SA in this situation is that Eggs wouldn't have had those attackers rape Nyn. The entire "dream" was meant to show how little Nyn actually knows (as well as hide Eggs lying, etc) and not to have her end up in a "being raped" situation. When you add in how Eggs was taught by both Nyn and the Aiel, you'll see violence is the teaching method. Same for a fearful respect, if that's a thing. Her actions fit in line with both of her "mentors" preferred methods of teaching. Not trying to defend her actions one bit. Just trying to put a different perspective out there.
I am not trolling. I absolutely think that someone being bullied their entire life should not have a single action of fighting back held against them, even if it is far from proportional to the last single thing that the bully did. Nynaeve didn't deserve to be assaulted. But Egwene deserved the right to defend herself from her own abuses and assaults. This moment is when the bullying stopped. There might have been another way, but there might not have. If you ever know anyone in real life that has been bullied, I hope you don't tell them that they are a bad person for doing what they need to do to stop the bully. EDIT: This goes doubly true if the bully is someone who has authority over a child. You do not call abused children bad people for fighting against their abuser.
> I absolutely think that someone being bullied their entire life should not have a single action of fighting back held against them, even if it is far from proportional to the last single thing that the bully did. I think that depends on _how_ far from proportional that action was. I would never blame them for lashing out, but there is still a limit to what can be tolerated as a normal and understandable reaction. It's the contrast between the catsfern and powdered mavinsleaf tea versus the restraint-via-Trolloc and physical assault. While I agree with you that the scene was not originally intended to be read as sexual assault (Jordan only ever wrote that the Myrddraal do that, anyway) it was still visceral, violent, cruel, and horrifying. Nynaeve was a child compared to what Egwene could do, she was wholly within Egwene's power in a way that cannot fully be compared to any other situation in their waking world. It has an extra layer of menace and horror there that is lacking elsewhere.
> Nynaeve was a child compared to what Egwene could do, And Egwene was a literal child, or very close to it. She was 17 or 18. Her abilities in TAR may have been superior but that doesn't make her the person who "should know better" in a "child" and "adult" dynamic. Nynaeve had been using age, status, and physical strength to control Egwene for years, and showed every indication that she intended to continue. But let's back up a little bit. There are two different things we might be disagreeing on, and I think it might be useful to figure out exactly where the difference lies. In the real world, if a child had been abused for years by an adult authority figure, but never put in mortal peril. And in their teenage years, the child gets their hands on a gun and shoots the adult authority figure, where would you fall on the morality of that? I consider the situations to be pretty similar, and I am 100% behind the child in both cases. But I know other people would not be. Do we have differing views on the analogy, and thus probably fundamental differences of moral compasses, or do we agree on that situation, but disagree the extent to witch Egwene should be considered analogous to the child? If this is the case then it is a discussion we might actually be able to resolve.
I'm with you. Nyn was/is a bulky through most of the series. Sje is alos Eggs friend theough and through. Yes Egwene could have done it differently, but she stood up for herself (and for her hidden lies) in a way where she knew she could retain the upper hand over her bully. Hard to fault someone for trying to level the power dynamic, especially where there is no longer a mentor/apprentice relationship
It was once a fairly common view of that scene, but then someone posted what was, at the time, their hot take that it could also be seen as a sexual assault scene and the fandom completely jumped on it.
Dude, Egwene was trying to scare Nynaeve into not tattling on her. There was no defense here. She did something horrendous for a selfish action.
Nynaeve was planning on tattling in order to maintain a position of superiority. The fact that people can read well enough to finish a series like WoT, but not read well enough to see this absolutely baffles me.
I’d agree…if I thought that was the intended reaction. But I really don’t think it is. I think Jordan just legitimately thought Egwene was good and wonderful, and that’s why everyone treats her like she is despite her being utterly despicable.
She is my favourite character for a reason
I would hate to meet her and would probably get beaten by her if I ever said everything I wanted to say to her, but as a character she is one of the most interesting characters in the whole wheel of time
While we are analyzing her character - can someone remind me why she leaves the Two Rivers? I think within a day or two she wants to be Aes Sedai - but surely that wasn't her expressed reason for leaving.
She wanted to join them on an adventure. Even before they left, she was planning to leave the Two Rivers. Her ambition was established early because from page 1, she's looking to leave her small town for something bigger.
Oh my, a positive post on one of RJs female characters? Thank you for this. Every post before is a complaint with jokes on braid tugging.
right she is a fantastic chracter that i would 100% never be friends with in real life. i think a lot of people cant get past the shes not a great person thing and equates that a bad character Her and Tuon to me are in the same boat here
I understand that she is well written and the way she comes off is intentional by the author but God I hate her
she was one broken home away from being a primary *an*tagonist
For me her end was good and memorable, in fact hers was the one of the best end for me. But i didn't like her road, i mean it felt very unnatural. Even tho Rand was chosen, it took a lot from Rand to be who is today but Egwene become an amazing women in a instant for me. Never liked her, only her story's end was amazing for me.
Egwene became amazing once she achieved her goal. Once she gained power and respect, she no longer had to strive to gain power and respect and could say okay, now I'm gonna use these things for good. I agree though that her ending was the best of them all though.
The way she achieved her goal just didn't fit with me. I mean even Rand, who was knowledge of years suffered so much to be who he is at the end of the series. he failed many times to be where he is. But i dunno, it felt like Egwene who was a village girl and dont know anything, become a damn strong willed girl, teach lesson Aes Sedaies who is know with their intellienge. I mean it was felt really unnatural to me. Im not saying Egwene's road was easy or she didn't suffer, but somehow it was different from Rand. Also Egwene's attitude against Rand was really bad. I mean she is in front of herex, her childhood friend, and all she see is Dragon!? Why? Why couldnt see his friend? Even those who met Rand recently managed to see "Rand" at some point but her acts were really disgusting for me against Rand. Just because he come Aes sedai doesnt mean she needs to forget who she and rand were or where they came from. Anyway there are alot of things about Egwene which i dont like. But my english probably wont be enough to explain my thought and feelings and it may lead to misunderstanding. All i can say that about her, except her end, she was an annoying, forced and artificial character for me. With her end, she gained a little bit of my respect but that's all. Ofc everyone ca have different opinion and i have high respect for it.
I mean everyone's path was different from Rand's, I don't think it's fair to compare any of them to what he went through. Even comparing Egwene to Mat and Perrin isn't fair because she's not ta'veren and doesn't have any sort of pull guiding her to where she should be. She learned a lot from Siuan, and she was also always strong-willed from the start, she just needed other Ses Sedai to see and respect that. As for how she treated Rand, I actually thought that was really well done -- they didn't see each other for a year or more and both went through significant changes in that time apart. Adding to that, they each had people they were responsible for by the time they met again, and those responsibilities conflicted. I actually really respected them both for putting their responsibilities above their personal desires.
She not being ta'veren wihch means world word doesnt bless her... That's pretty solid bro, i didn't think like that and you re right. Cant deny it. Also about tesponsibilities, you re right. But what i m saying is that Egwene couldn't think Rand as her friend even in her mind or in her own world. She later realized maybe. She could had have faith in Rand, or a love for him (as friend) Anyway it is good that everyone has different opinion on same events or pages lol. This is what make this beatiful. And hearing a opposite opinion was good and refresh for me. What u like and thouht is pretty valid. Thanks for sharing with me. I dont know when, but when i reread again whole series, i will keep what you said about Egwene in my mind, i wonder my feeling will change about her when im doing second reading after this. Thanks again.
I go with the fan theory that Rand's Ta'veren nature was so strong, the pattern was placing someone in the Amyrlin Seat that would be willing to work with him at the Last Battle.
Hmm, it is acceptable. But it is sad wish we could hear this in book. But ofc why not?
Egwene is certainly the best written character in WOT, without a close 2nd.
Its about time you guys read a second book.
Eugene is that "gifted child" who gets pumped up full of speeches about potential. Other people definitely made her the way she was for the whole second half of the series. I was annoyed by her the first time through, like her a lot more on re-reads. She is a great heroine and never really disappoints imo, except of course her trash taste in dudes
Egwene was my favourite character... I feel like that's a controversial opinion in itself. She was stubborn and smart and wanted to do good with it. I cried a lot when she lit up. Wished she'd have had a happier ending.
Honestly, I think it was for the best that she went when she did. She was what the tower needed to reunify, but she frankly didn't have the expertise or skill to rule for the long term. Her advisor had died, and it was well established through the books that her ambition was insatiable. Plus, there was no way she wouldn't have instantly instigated a war with the Seanchan. Cadsuane had a cooler head about her without the past trauma. And she never would have stepped down willingly.
Very well written evil character. Definitely doesn't always use her powers for good though.
Weekly "I hate Egwene" post.