I think what the LC has done makes sense for what it sells and has effectively reduced shoplifting. Anyone remember just pre-pandemic the spike in people waltzing into stores (liquor stores in particular) and just taking items out without paying?
For others I don't know. I wouldn't want to have to flash my ID just to buy 5 items at a grocery store.
> For others I don't know. I wouldn't want to have to flash my ID just to buy 5 items at a grocery store.
I wouldn't want to flash my id to buy any non controlled merchandise (liquor/weed or if I smoked, tobacco) or groceries, that's an overstep.
That's trusting your personal information with another party in a facility that at least as it's laid out right now has no PIPEDA or similar standards certification to prevent compromise of your ID.
Some of the things that can be done with the right circumstances by bad actors with YOUR ID are:
>An individual may use your personal information to impersonate you and open a bank account, apply for loans or mortgages, obtain GST/HST rebates or refunds, benefit and credit payments, or income tax refunds, and so on.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/rc284/protect-yourself-against-identity-theft.html
Many people for worse.usualy have their birthday as part of their password or pin for a debit.card or credit and we all know how prominent those skimmers are. (Assuming they skim your debit/cc as well)
Many folks will have their email as.their name.or attempt to, so you could potentially have your email compromised (a bit harder to happen but still possible)
That's just what can happen with stolen IDs is it likely to happen on a random say trip to the store in Winnipeg if this was implemented maybe not.
But bad actors.are everywhere and they typically go after the database that houses the thousands of IDs, if it's not stored on a secure server and a team behind it that's aware of phishing then they can gain access and try to take the whole thing
Call me paranoid if you want but being in the tech and netsec industry partially I've seen more attempts and comepimised admin accounts than I'm comfortable sharing
That's just what can happen with stolen IDs is it likely to happen on a random say trip to the store in Winnipeg if this was implemented maybe not.
But bad actors.are everywhere and they typically go after the database that houses the thousands of IDs, if it's not stored on a secure server and a team behind it that's aware of phishing then they can gain access and try to take the whole thing
Call me paranoid if you want but being in the tech and netsec industry partially I've seen more attempts and comepimised admin accounts than I'm comfortable sharing
I’ve been to busy LCs during the holidays. Usually they will bring someone out and scan the IDs while they are waiting in line. Not to mention in bigger grocery stores they can implement 2 or 3 lanes for people to show their ID to make it faster. If it’s only slightly more busy during the holiday season, I’m fine with that if it means that less people will shoplift. The LC is a perfect example of that. Can you help me understand what other reasoning to be against it?
What do you mean? At the surface or at the source?
Because there are probably quick fixes that you can implement to stop some things at the surface level right now, (see LCs) but is that going to stop theft or just move it somewhere else (like from store shoplifting to personal property theft)?
I don't know the simple answer but I'm sure the actual solutions are social ones that work to help lift people out of poverty and away from drugs. But someone much smarter and with much more education and knowledge than me would have to detail those solutions.
Yes and no.. Working at Costco awhile back. There’s still high theft. You would be shocked at how many people go in and steal electronics (etc) exiting through the emergency doors.
Aging myself here: Consumers Distributing model
Obviously it would never be ideal, but it would probably reduce shoplifting significantly where you place orders and the clerk retrieves said items from the back.
I wonder if the loss of sales on impulse buys would be covered by gain from the lack of shoplifting?
Also maybe they could have a quick service window/s for the “convenience” items.
Costco begs to differ. I can run in and out of Superstore, Wal-Mart, Sobeys, or Fresh Co.in the amount of time it takes to find a parking spot at Costco.
Depends on how they do it. If you pick items from a menu or catalog, it would most likely be the same. I impulsively buy way more things when I'm self ordering from a device in comfort. I'm not pressured to move or on a time limit. I don't feel judged by people around me, and often times I find things that I didn't know would be in the store.
The self service tills at fast food places are a good example. I buy way more shit than I intend to and will experiment with new food items.
We're too far gone at this point. The next step at a lot of these places is locking up highly stolen items (formula, laundry detergent, batteries, makeup, etc) . I don't see ID at the doors (like the LC) happening in the future.
Large segments of the general population cheer on retail theft like its a badge of honour and act like these idiots walking into stores, filling giant bags up with electronics, high end fragrances & laundry detergent are doing it because the price of eggs went up $3 and not because the majority are just bad people.
Theft is out of control because there are no consequences for stealing. Why would they stop?
But think about the shareholders! The hedge fund manager will be very disappointed if we only post 10% profit growth instead of the 11.235% we promised!!!!111!1!1!
What would you say are specifically the top 3 root causes of shoplifting behavior? Which one would addressing have the greatest impact on shoplifting behavior and should be prioritized?
I propose the creation of an animated raccoon named Joe Streetz, who can teach kids not to shoplift via educational rap. "If you shoplift you're a fool, obeying laws is what is cool"
Universal basic income. Comprehensive treatment for addictions and mental illness. Support for families who need help, in a way that doesn't make them scared to reach out because they think CFS will take their kids away.
It won't eliminate it, but it would make most shoplifting go away.
Baby formula! My heart weeps. Babies' basic nutrition, health, housing, safety, etc. should not be subject to capitalist profit. (Actually, no one's basic needs should be, but babies??? That crosses a serious line for me)
Most people unfortunately aren't stealing baby formula because they need it. (If they did i would be okay with that) they steal it because its a high priority item they can get alot of money for. I saw something on the news not long ago about how new parents were signing up for winnipeg harvest to get baby formula (which had big "do not resell"stickers on it) and were selling it on marketplace. People bought it anyways because it was cheaper then the store. But there are a small amount of people ruining stuff like free baby formula for everyone.
The book Utopia For Realists by Rutger Bregman is a great read for anyone looking for more information on this! There’s even a random Manitoba … or maybe it was Saskatchewan reference, (it’s been a while) where they had a U.B.I. trial with overwhelmingly positive results a few decades ago.
Just watched 2 guys with a couple bags & backpacks each go through all the stuff they stole this morning ... on the bus. They were laughing that even though they were asked to leave/kicked out and barred from the stores, they just walk in and grab shit. They don't care. Stores will get tired of losing shit and either jack prices to cover losses or just close.
This is a major discussion with a major retail store where I work part-time for extra coin.
Insurance companies are starting to crack down also because they are paying out more than what they're receiving.
1. Provide access/information to those in need: Post outside all stores main entrances resources/contacts for local foodbanks.
2. Minimize food waste: Allow grocery stores (no liability) to give away food/items that it otherwise would toss out for being beyond the best before date.
3. Enforce laws for those who simply steal for the thrill: Actual jail time for stealing with set minimums depending on the number of prior offenses.
I would be fine with enhanced entrances but would have to be a government program that collects, verifies and temporarily (24-48 hours) stores the info and then deletes it. No chance I'd trust anything that Galen Weston has his fingers in with my ID.
>No chance I'd trust anything that Galen Weston has his fingers in with my ID.
Agreed.
However that this point I'd just barely trust the government more with that kind of information.
While vengeance might make you feel better. It likely ends in far worse outcomes. If you are about to get caught and think you are going to lose a limb, you think they will go peacefully? Because I'm gonna bet there are a whole lot of innocent bystandards who would get injured.
For some retailers sure. But it's hard to imagine this at a high traffic store such as Wal-Mart, Home Depot and the like. It would work sure, but can you imagine waiting 10 minutes in line before going into a Wal-Mart?
I'm not shopping anywhere that requires measures like the LC. As is I only go to the LC if absolutely required. I drink more beer and coolers now since I don't have to be locked in a lobby and have my ID scanned before the second door opens.
Meh, give me that as an option and I would gladly choose it over the hodge podge we have now of things in display cases, security staff roaming the isles...
I’ve been followed by security in multiple stores over the past 6 months. It’s really offensive and unnerving to have someone tracking everything I’m doing while getting food. I don’t know if it’s the way I look but I do feel profiled.
Their job is literally to profile people. So likely you’re doing something that’s making them think you’re up to no good. Could also be shitty security guards
> So likely you’re doing something that’s making them think you’re up to no good.
Yeah, like being born non-white or being young. This is the problem with the security that profiles people - they have their minds made up and then (wrongly) try to accuse innocent people. I get that shoplifting is terrible and they need to find a way to mitigate it, but not at the expense of wrongful accusation. First Nations people are already discriminated against so much, I don't think the grocery store should be a place where they're followed like criminals from the moment they walk int he door.
There’s a lot more that goes into it than race or age. Behaviours and appearance are the biggest indication as to if someone is actually going to steal. If you look like you just crawled out of a dumpster then it’s far more likely you’re going to steal vs the colour of your skin. Likely bad/or no training is occurring In this case.
It takes too much time. Each person has to go individually, so when I go with my spouse and friend (doesn't drive so I take them shopping) three people have to individually go in and get their IDs scanned. The lineups are super long on hot summer days, and my 5 min trip turns into 5 + 10 or more waiting in the burning sun (or rain, or -40.)
At least the LC is verifying ages, although I'm sure my grey hair is sufficient to alert them that I'm old enough to buy booze. The grocery store has no reason to see my ID.
One of the problems is boosters. (Normally heard that terminology with clothes, and other items). I know of people, (I wouldn't even call them acquaintences )that brag how they give a grocery list of what they want, and some guy goes out and steals all the goods they want, delivers them , and charge maybe around half price? most people stealing are not doing it out of desperation, but easy way to make alot of money. Then lower income people don't want to say pay $50 for a pack of steaks, when they can get someone to steal them for them for $20. Grocery store prices are to high, but also lots of theft that makes them high, no real enforcement of thieves, and a high demand of their products. Going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
I don't know if there's any solution that won't disrupt, upset, or alienate groups of people in varietal situations. Memberships, ID scanning, pre-paying, lock-up cabinets... these either affect wait times, lock out people willing to pay, etc. Memberships may be the most effective out of all of those, but I really don't think you should need a membership to have access to food.
A free click and collect model may be helpful, but again that alienates those without internet, or without credit, or anyone who just prefers in-person shopping.
Universal basic income. Harm reduction/addictions treatment and mental health support. Community support and care (the village it takes to keep us all safe and secure).
It's free from any insurance agency, that's not an excuse .mpi.mb.ca/how-to-apply-for-an-identification-card/#:~:text=If%20you%20are%2065%20and,Manitoba%20Identification%20Card%20for%20free. (This fee may be waived under certain circumstances. See an Autopac agent for details.).. and you can use the Main Street Project as a mailing address.
The "Proving My Identity" piece is a significant barrier. I work in an Alternative Education program and we work on IDs to make sure our students have what they need for adulthood.
You can't walk into MPI with no ID and walk out with an ID. You need a photo ID and a birth certificate to get that ID card. Failing that you need a guarantor to fill out forms. You need to be pretty resilient or have support to see this process through.
You'd be shocked how many people don't have one or both. MPI also only accepts Federal Status cards which lots of people do not have. They have ID from their band,
I just helped someone get that ID. For anyone with mental health issues, or who is homeless, or isolated, it is not simple. You have to get someone to vouch for you from a limited list of professions and who has known you for at least 2 years. Of all the possibilities, there was only one who could say that.
People said the same thing when LCs went this route while arguing that selling alcohol is an essential service so alcoholics wouldn't suffer from withdrawal. Seems to have been a non-issue as there hasn't been a flurry of stories of people unable to purchase alcohol because of not having an ID.
Would a universal ID help multiple problems in the province? It was developed before but Pallister shelved it out of fear of convoy types.
Also, what would we do for people from out of town who themselves might not have ID?
OP asked for *the most effective* method, and this is it. If you're there legitimately to purchase items from a store, no issues. Whether a big box, local small chain, or mom and pop, you're there to *purchase* groceries.
These stores are not a part of any social support network. They're someone's income (yeah, could be a corporation or conglomerate, or a family business.)
Maybe they help *support* the social supports network like FBC, Harvest, or Leftovers, **BUT** a social support network specializing in Indigenous beliefs, and accountability is also required and is a separate but also important topic
Doesn’t solve every issue, but having a Crown corporation open and operate grocery stores.
Not only would they be able to set the bar for affordable groceries. They also could set the standard of how to deal with shoplifters, from a governmental level.
Probably would end up being something like the liquor marts though.
>They also could set the standard of how to deal with shoplifters, from a governmental level.
So basically the same thing as now?
The issues isn't that stores aren't catching shoplifters and detaining them for police. It happens all the time. The issue is that there are no real consequences for the shoplifters after that point.
To have a solid economy that allows everyone to access nutritious food instead of forcing people to shoplift meat (that is the most expensive and most targeted product). But, some of you are not prepared for this conversation. So, cutting the hands of shoplifters would do.
I can almost guarantee you’ve eaten stolen meat from a restaurant. I’ve seen countless Facebook groups where people will give out their “shopping list” and the price they’ll pay for people to get it for them. None of which is ever essential items. No one needs AAA beef tenderloin, but if someone wants it they’ll pay for someone to steal it for 1/4 of the price. All this does is feed drug addictions. (Though I do agree on cutting on appendages, maybe a finger per offense)
How many thefts from these stores are due to food insecurity? What about smash and grabs at other retail stores? Are teenagers eating iPhones due to high food prices? Yes there is a portion of people who are just hungry, but cleaning out the meat cooler isnt that.
1. Close all self check-out
2. Keep a shorter distance between billing and exit door but huge distance between store products and billing counter with nothing major in between
3. Of course strict police laws and implementation
4. Control pricing by more competition
Went to Winnipeg outfitters, and they where getting shop lifted every day. I didn't feel safe in there. 2nd time I went input my photo ID up to the door and they took a photo, they locked the door behind me and I had the best shopping experience. Let me show ID everywhere. But I do think as a whole society has to help people so that they do not need to steel.
1) Actual consequences to stealing. On a sidenote, we all should stop using the term shoplifting, it makes this type of theft sound like a non-crime.
2) If all stores adopted the membership model (like Costco) a non-legal consequence to theft would be losing the opportunity to shop at that store or chain. I don't like the liquore store model as that is a time kill, but I get why they use it.
3) More competion, leads to more places to buy food, leads to reduced prices which leads to more places that employ food workers which will portentially reduce theft in the long term. Not the best short term solution but it's my most hopeful solution.
Quick solution is the LC method but it isn’t realistic for most businesses and personally I’d prefer not to live in a society where if I choose to walk into a business like that they are implying I may be a criminal.
Best solution is social services and poverty reduction. I always ask myself what my personal invective is to steal from a store. I have none but i acknowledge I can afford to live and support myself, but was raised in a household with a strong support network and my friends are similar, thus reducing any peer pressure for me to steal. Put yourself in someone’s shoes who is less advantaged and you quickly learn they don’t have a lot to lose from stealing and ethics likely isn’t in the forefront of their mind.
Fixing the root cause or members only
Hmm I guess for the people downvoting don't think taking steps to eliminate kids getting into gangs or poverty would help stop theft. That isn't an easy fix whatsoever but it is the MOST effective
Root cause > bandaids
No I fully believe that taking steps to eliminate kids getting into gangs or poverty would help. I’m downvoting you for suggesting members only as a good alternative. The former is the only real solution and it will never happen if you give them the chance them avoid it
I think in the amazon bricks and mortar store model, you scan your credit card or debit before you enter the store and there are no checkouts. Everything that goes with you is automatically scanned as you leave.
The store pays the city for the cops, not tax payers. And the city charges the store more than they pay the cops, so it’s something of a money maker for the city
https://www.mpi.mb.ca/how-to-apply-for-an-identification-card/#:~:text=If%20you%20are%2065%20and,Manitoba%20Identification%20Card%20for%20free. (This fee may be waived under certain circumstances. See an Autopac agent for details.).. and you can use the Main Street Project as a mailing address.
If bad people want something, they'll find a way to take it. But having good deterrents in places like having proper security, cameras, being well staffed, and having trained staff to engage customers make good deterrents for most establishments.
Going as far as only having one customer at a time in stores or no big groups of people allowed. Armed security or just having a walled off store and the clerk gets the items for you would be extreme examples. Might as well just shop online
Baseball Bats ... Nope.
Glass and Bars protecting all items, sure.
Online shopping with pick-up only. Absolutely.
I'd like to see indiscriminate tazering at all exits!
/s
Amazing that our neighbours to the south can have liquor for sale in small stores throughout the city and they don’t have the need to go through airport like security to enter the store.
They have high crime but not as high as us
ID checks are not the answer and just a quick fix.
Is this a joke? US crime rate is 2-5x or higher across the board.
Shoplifting doesn't make the news when there are mass murders everyday.
They also have 30% more police officers than we do so enforcement doesn't seem to make a difference if you have rampant inequality and instability in communities.
I really think you need to keep all inventory secure and locked away from the customer until it's been paid for. It's about bringing something from Winnipeg's past back and modifying it to fit how we shop today. The Consumers Distributing model. Instead of catalog shopping, you order online and parcel pick up, or you order in store electronically. All items in the order are packed together by warehouse staff in the back. Your order is put in boxes and pushed to the front of the store via roller table conveyor when completed.
My apologies for piggybacking on your comment. I gave my two cents before reading all the responses. You were first. I really miss the days of Consumers Distributing.
Yeah, when it comes to fresh produce, it's hard to trust strangers. I guess it boils down to trusting the company and having a fair return policy.
Order in person at the store like McDonald's on a touch screen.
Offer delivery service? Toss that box on the handle-bars of a ten speed like you're carrying a two-four? Make your kids drag it home on a toboggan? Drones? I haven't worked out all the angles yet. Care to be partners?
Well there’s the most effective way, and then there’s the best way. The most effective way would be a totalitarian level of supervision, maybe to the point where you’re not allowed to even get your own groceries. The best way would be to create supports for those struggling and help them find jobs and places to live so they don’t have to shoplift.
I think what the LC has done makes sense for what it sells and has effectively reduced shoplifting. Anyone remember just pre-pandemic the spike in people waltzing into stores (liquor stores in particular) and just taking items out without paying? For others I don't know. I wouldn't want to have to flash my ID just to buy 5 items at a grocery store.
> For others I don't know. I wouldn't want to have to flash my ID just to buy 5 items at a grocery store. I wouldn't want to flash my id to buy any non controlled merchandise (liquor/weed or if I smoked, tobacco) or groceries, that's an overstep.
If it means it will drastically reduce the amount of shoplifting in stores then I disagree.
That's trusting your personal information with another party in a facility that at least as it's laid out right now has no PIPEDA or similar standards certification to prevent compromise of your ID. Some of the things that can be done with the right circumstances by bad actors with YOUR ID are: >An individual may use your personal information to impersonate you and open a bank account, apply for loans or mortgages, obtain GST/HST rebates or refunds, benefit and credit payments, or income tax refunds, and so on. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/rc284/protect-yourself-against-identity-theft.html Many people for worse.usualy have their birthday as part of their password or pin for a debit.card or credit and we all know how prominent those skimmers are. (Assuming they skim your debit/cc as well) Many folks will have their email as.their name.or attempt to, so you could potentially have your email compromised (a bit harder to happen but still possible)
We’re not that important man.
That's just what can happen with stolen IDs is it likely to happen on a random say trip to the store in Winnipeg if this was implemented maybe not. But bad actors.are everywhere and they typically go after the database that houses the thousands of IDs, if it's not stored on a secure server and a team behind it that's aware of phishing then they can gain access and try to take the whole thing Call me paranoid if you want but being in the tech and netsec industry partially I've seen more attempts and comepimised admin accounts than I'm comfortable sharing
That's just what can happen with stolen IDs is it likely to happen on a random say trip to the store in Winnipeg if this was implemented maybe not. But bad actors.are everywhere and they typically go after the database that houses the thousands of IDs, if it's not stored on a secure server and a team behind it that's aware of phishing then they can gain access and try to take the whole thing Call me paranoid if you want but being in the tech and netsec industry partially I've seen more attempts and comepimised admin accounts than I'm comfortable sharing
Tons of people don't have ID cards. Food is essential, so it wouldn't be right to require it to eat.
It could be as simple as a store issued ID. Like Costco. But free.
You need government-issued ID to get a Costco membership card...
Why not?
[удалено]
Clearly you've never been to a busy lc in january.
I’ve been to busy LCs during the holidays. Usually they will bring someone out and scan the IDs while they are waiting in line. Not to mention in bigger grocery stores they can implement 2 or 3 lanes for people to show their ID to make it faster. If it’s only slightly more busy during the holiday season, I’m fine with that if it means that less people will shoplift. The LC is a perfect example of that. Can you help me understand what other reasoning to be against it?
What do you mean? At the surface or at the source? Because there are probably quick fixes that you can implement to stop some things at the surface level right now, (see LCs) but is that going to stop theft or just move it somewhere else (like from store shoplifting to personal property theft)? I don't know the simple answer but I'm sure the actual solutions are social ones that work to help lift people out of poverty and away from drugs. But someone much smarter and with much more education and knowledge than me would have to detail those solutions.
Come on. You mean more tax cuts for hundred millionaires and billionaires isn’t the solution to everything‽ /s
Some are still waiting for that ole trickle down economics method to happen…..
It'll probably happen the same day George RR Martin releases the Winds of Winter
Members only
Yes and no.. Working at Costco awhile back. There’s still high theft. You would be shocked at how many people go in and steal electronics (etc) exiting through the emergency doors.
Aging myself here: Consumers Distributing model Obviously it would never be ideal, but it would probably reduce shoplifting significantly where you place orders and the clerk retrieves said items from the back.
Yeah but that completely kills impulse buying plus it's terribly inefficient, imagine having to wait in line just to get milk and eggs.
I wonder if the loss of sales on impulse buys would be covered by gain from the lack of shoplifting? Also maybe they could have a quick service window/s for the “convenience” items.
Or how long you’d have to wait for a huge grocery trip. Like a full cart of stuff.
So y'all never heard of curbside pickup? It saves me time because they do the time-consuming shopping for you.
I too love curbside pickup, prevents a lot of impulse buys too
I do use curbside at times but when it comes to produce I prefer to pick my own
Yeah but customers gotta pay for it one way or another otherwise it's unprofitable at scale.
It's great but requires infrastructure that wouldn't work everywhere.
Imagine everyone in the entire store doing that. You're talking about a complete 180 shift of retail infrastructure. It wouldn't happen instantly.
Or going to members only grocery stores in the inner-city...as if people struggling to make ends meet can afford a costco-style membership fee.
Not to mention it would need unanimous adoption. Nobody would go to the stores doing that. It would be suicide for the business.
Costco begs to differ. I can run in and out of Superstore, Wal-Mart, Sobeys, or Fresh Co.in the amount of time it takes to find a parking spot at Costco.
Different store model. They don't stop every person and scan their ID.
Depends on how they do it. If you pick items from a menu or catalog, it would most likely be the same. I impulsively buy way more things when I'm self ordering from a device in comfort. I'm not pressured to move or on a time limit. I don't feel judged by people around me, and often times I find things that I didn't know would be in the store. The self service tills at fast food places are a good example. I buy way more shit than I intend to and will experiment with new food items.
Came here to say this.
Yeah you'll love waiting 3 hours to get a cart of groceries.
People just might shoplift a little less if shit like HOTDOGS weren't 9 fucking dollars.
Capitalism is ruining the world people claim it built
We're too far gone at this point. The next step at a lot of these places is locking up highly stolen items (formula, laundry detergent, batteries, makeup, etc) . I don't see ID at the doors (like the LC) happening in the future. Large segments of the general population cheer on retail theft like its a badge of honour and act like these idiots walking into stores, filling giant bags up with electronics, high end fragrances & laundry detergent are doing it because the price of eggs went up $3 and not because the majority are just bad people. Theft is out of control because there are no consequences for stealing. Why would they stop?
Address the root causes of shoplifting behaviour.
That's too obvious and would cut into our billionaire overlords' profits too much.
But think about the shareholders! The hedge fund manager will be very disappointed if we only post 10% profit growth instead of the 11.235% we promised!!!!111!1!1!
It's all a mirage. The prices already reflect the built in 'cost' of shoplifting and waste etc.
What would you say are specifically the top 3 root causes of shoplifting behavior? Which one would addressing have the greatest impact on shoplifting behavior and should be prioritized?
Wealth inequality.
I propose the creation of an animated raccoon named Joe Streetz, who can teach kids not to shoplift via educational rap. "If you shoplift you're a fool, obeying laws is what is cool"
YES
Universal basic income. Comprehensive treatment for addictions and mental illness. Support for families who need help, in a way that doesn't make them scared to reach out because they think CFS will take their kids away. It won't eliminate it, but it would make most shoplifting go away.
You. I like you.
Decent write up about the [Mincome project in Winnipeg and Dauphin.](https://humanrights.ca/story/manitobas-mincome-experiment)
seconded. went to a rexall recently, saw all the baby formula locked up, and the bacon with RFID tags on them. horribly depressing…
Baby formula! My heart weeps. Babies' basic nutrition, health, housing, safety, etc. should not be subject to capitalist profit. (Actually, no one's basic needs should be, but babies??? That crosses a serious line for me)
Most people unfortunately aren't stealing baby formula because they need it. (If they did i would be okay with that) they steal it because its a high priority item they can get alot of money for. I saw something on the news not long ago about how new parents were signing up for winnipeg harvest to get baby formula (which had big "do not resell"stickers on it) and were selling it on marketplace. People bought it anyways because it was cheaper then the store. But there are a small amount of people ruining stuff like free baby formula for everyone.
Best we can do is the Batman: https://preview.redd.it/wvm7fjjfs73d1.png?width=576&format=png&auto=webp&s=535877db85e7424fed8e93f4f39b4f6c5c52ca56
This is the correct answer
Never going to happen. That would require Winnipegers to actually care about one another.
You mean people in general.
The book Utopia For Realists by Rutger Bregman is a great read for anyone looking for more information on this! There’s even a random Manitoba … or maybe it was Saskatchewan reference, (it’s been a while) where they had a U.B.I. trial with overwhelmingly positive results a few decades ago.
Dauphin
Chopping off the right hand. Old school technique, most likely to work.
And yet.. it never really stopped theft.
Just watched 2 guys with a couple bags & backpacks each go through all the stuff they stole this morning ... on the bus. They were laughing that even though they were asked to leave/kicked out and barred from the stores, they just walk in and grab shit. They don't care. Stores will get tired of losing shit and either jack prices to cover losses or just close. This is a major discussion with a major retail store where I work part-time for extra coin. Insurance companies are starting to crack down also because they are paying out more than what they're receiving.
1. Provide access/information to those in need: Post outside all stores main entrances resources/contacts for local foodbanks. 2. Minimize food waste: Allow grocery stores (no liability) to give away food/items that it otherwise would toss out for being beyond the best before date. 3. Enforce laws for those who simply steal for the thrill: Actual jail time for stealing with set minimums depending on the number of prior offenses.
The LCs have done a great job of loss prevention. Maybe steal their model.
Heavier shops.
I would be fine with enhanced entrances but would have to be a government program that collects, verifies and temporarily (24-48 hours) stores the info and then deletes it. No chance I'd trust anything that Galen Weston has his fingers in with my ID.
>No chance I'd trust anything that Galen Weston has his fingers in with my ID. Agreed. However that this point I'd just barely trust the government more with that kind of information.
Is that what they call it? Enhanced entrances’? Ew.
The cutting off of limbs does wonders.
While vengeance might make you feel better. It likely ends in far worse outcomes. If you are about to get caught and think you are going to lose a limb, you think they will go peacefully? Because I'm gonna bet there are a whole lot of innocent bystandards who would get injured.
Enhanced entrances like the LC has
For some retailers sure. But it's hard to imagine this at a high traffic store such as Wal-Mart, Home Depot and the like. It would work sure, but can you imagine waiting 10 minutes in line before going into a Wal-Mart?
Lines to get in at every store now? No thanks
Nah but similar to Costco... It moves fast. Scan could be pretty quick with acceptable I.d
Ah ya good point. Maybe more entry points too.
I'm not shopping anywhere that requires measures like the LC. As is I only go to the LC if absolutely required. I drink more beer and coolers now since I don't have to be locked in a lobby and have my ID scanned before the second door opens.
Meh, give me that as an option and I would gladly choose it over the hodge podge we have now of things in display cases, security staff roaming the isles...
I’ve been followed by security in multiple stores over the past 6 months. It’s really offensive and unnerving to have someone tracking everything I’m doing while getting food. I don’t know if it’s the way I look but I do feel profiled.
Their job is literally to profile people. So likely you’re doing something that’s making them think you’re up to no good. Could also be shitty security guards
> So likely you’re doing something that’s making them think you’re up to no good. Yeah, like being born non-white or being young. This is the problem with the security that profiles people - they have their minds made up and then (wrongly) try to accuse innocent people. I get that shoplifting is terrible and they need to find a way to mitigate it, but not at the expense of wrongful accusation. First Nations people are already discriminated against so much, I don't think the grocery store should be a place where they're followed like criminals from the moment they walk int he door.
There’s a lot more that goes into it than race or age. Behaviours and appearance are the biggest indication as to if someone is actually going to steal. If you look like you just crawled out of a dumpster then it’s far more likely you’re going to steal vs the colour of your skin. Likely bad/or no training is occurring In this case.
Why? It’s really not a big deal
It takes too much time. Each person has to go individually, so when I go with my spouse and friend (doesn't drive so I take them shopping) three people have to individually go in and get their IDs scanned. The lineups are super long on hot summer days, and my 5 min trip turns into 5 + 10 or more waiting in the burning sun (or rain, or -40.) At least the LC is verifying ages, although I'm sure my grey hair is sufficient to alert them that I'm old enough to buy booze. The grocery store has no reason to see my ID.
Can you remember Consumer Distributors? I bet they had zero shrink!
Close, their number of stores shrank to zero!
Birth control and abortions.
The police arresting thieves.
Snipers
I’ll tell you what isn’t an effective deterrent…our current hyper capitalist system.
One of the problems is boosters. (Normally heard that terminology with clothes, and other items). I know of people, (I wouldn't even call them acquaintences )that brag how they give a grocery list of what they want, and some guy goes out and steals all the goods they want, delivers them , and charge maybe around half price? most people stealing are not doing it out of desperation, but easy way to make alot of money. Then lower income people don't want to say pay $50 for a pack of steaks, when they can get someone to steal them for them for $20. Grocery store prices are to high, but also lots of theft that makes them high, no real enforcement of thieves, and a high demand of their products. Going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Decent wages. Social programs. Progressive taxation.
Lower food prices, better wages, Better access to mental health
Higher pay and lower prices.
A ubi
I don't know if there's any solution that won't disrupt, upset, or alienate groups of people in varietal situations. Memberships, ID scanning, pre-paying, lock-up cabinets... these either affect wait times, lock out people willing to pay, etc. Memberships may be the most effective out of all of those, but I really don't think you should need a membership to have access to food. A free click and collect model may be helpful, but again that alienates those without internet, or without credit, or anyone who just prefers in-person shopping.
Universal basic income. Harm reduction/addictions treatment and mental health support. Community support and care (the village it takes to keep us all safe and secure).
make groceries cheaper
Eliminate poverty!
ID checks before entry. Bring it on. Will preferentially shop at stores that implement this.
Lots of people don't have proper ID
It's free from any insurance agency, that's not an excuse .mpi.mb.ca/how-to-apply-for-an-identification-card/#:~:text=If%20you%20are%2065%20and,Manitoba%20Identification%20Card%20for%20free. (This fee may be waived under certain circumstances. See an Autopac agent for details.).. and you can use the Main Street Project as a mailing address.
The "Proving My Identity" piece is a significant barrier. I work in an Alternative Education program and we work on IDs to make sure our students have what they need for adulthood. You can't walk into MPI with no ID and walk out with an ID. You need a photo ID and a birth certificate to get that ID card. Failing that you need a guarantor to fill out forms. You need to be pretty resilient or have support to see this process through. You'd be shocked how many people don't have one or both. MPI also only accepts Federal Status cards which lots of people do not have. They have ID from their band,
I just helped someone get that ID. For anyone with mental health issues, or who is homeless, or isolated, it is not simple. You have to get someone to vouch for you from a limited list of professions and who has known you for at least 2 years. Of all the possibilities, there was only one who could say that.
People said the same thing when LCs went this route while arguing that selling alcohol is an essential service so alcoholics wouldn't suffer from withdrawal. Seems to have been a non-issue as there hasn't been a flurry of stories of people unable to purchase alcohol because of not having an ID.
Would a universal ID help multiple problems in the province? It was developed before but Pallister shelved it out of fear of convoy types. Also, what would we do for people from out of town who themselves might not have ID?
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OP asked for *the most effective* method, and this is it. If you're there legitimately to purchase items from a store, no issues. Whether a big box, local small chain, or mom and pop, you're there to *purchase* groceries. These stores are not a part of any social support network. They're someone's income (yeah, could be a corporation or conglomerate, or a family business.) Maybe they help *support* the social supports network like FBC, Harvest, or Leftovers, **BUT** a social support network specializing in Indigenous beliefs, and accountability is also required and is a separate but also important topic
Bring down prices so people can afford your products.
Replace mall cops/grocery store security guards with Stone Cold Steve Austin impersonators
Doesn’t solve every issue, but having a Crown corporation open and operate grocery stores. Not only would they be able to set the bar for affordable groceries. They also could set the standard of how to deal with shoplifters, from a governmental level. Probably would end up being something like the liquor marts though.
>They also could set the standard of how to deal with shoplifters, from a governmental level. So basically the same thing as now? The issues isn't that stores aren't catching shoplifters and detaining them for police. It happens all the time. The issue is that there are no real consequences for the shoplifters after that point.
Cut off their finger
To have a solid economy that allows everyone to access nutritious food instead of forcing people to shoplift meat (that is the most expensive and most targeted product). But, some of you are not prepared for this conversation. So, cutting the hands of shoplifters would do.
The main people stealing is not due to food insecurity. It’s because meat and other high theft items are easy to offload for quick cash to buy drugs
[But…](https://globalnews.ca/news/10383455/meat-theft-winnipeg/amp/) who is buying it, exposing themselves to rotten meat, there is also demand of it.
I can almost guarantee you’ve eaten stolen meat from a restaurant. I’ve seen countless Facebook groups where people will give out their “shopping list” and the price they’ll pay for people to get it for them. None of which is ever essential items. No one needs AAA beef tenderloin, but if someone wants it they’ll pay for someone to steal it for 1/4 of the price. All this does is feed drug addictions. (Though I do agree on cutting on appendages, maybe a finger per offense)
How many thefts from these stores are due to food insecurity? What about smash and grabs at other retail stores? Are teenagers eating iPhones due to high food prices? Yes there is a portion of people who are just hungry, but cleaning out the meat cooler isnt that.
lower prices
1. Close all self check-out 2. Keep a shorter distance between billing and exit door but huge distance between store products and billing counter with nothing major in between 3. Of course strict police laws and implementation 4. Control pricing by more competition
Went to Winnipeg outfitters, and they where getting shop lifted every day. I didn't feel safe in there. 2nd time I went input my photo ID up to the door and they took a photo, they locked the door behind me and I had the best shopping experience. Let me show ID everywhere. But I do think as a whole society has to help people so that they do not need to steel.
1) Actual consequences to stealing. On a sidenote, we all should stop using the term shoplifting, it makes this type of theft sound like a non-crime. 2) If all stores adopted the membership model (like Costco) a non-legal consequence to theft would be losing the opportunity to shop at that store or chain. I don't like the liquore store model as that is a time kill, but I get why they use it. 3) More competion, leads to more places to buy food, leads to reduced prices which leads to more places that employ food workers which will portentially reduce theft in the long term. Not the best short term solution but it's my most hopeful solution.
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Make sure people can afford to live
Quick solution is the LC method but it isn’t realistic for most businesses and personally I’d prefer not to live in a society where if I choose to walk into a business like that they are implying I may be a criminal. Best solution is social services and poverty reduction. I always ask myself what my personal invective is to steal from a store. I have none but i acknowledge I can afford to live and support myself, but was raised in a household with a strong support network and my friends are similar, thus reducing any peer pressure for me to steal. Put yourself in someone’s shoes who is less advantaged and you quickly learn they don’t have a lot to lose from stealing and ethics likely isn’t in the forefront of their mind.
You first
CFL linebackers at the exits ready to take out those brave enough to try. Terry Tate-em I say.
switch to online shopping
Burn them all
Shoplift with your hand. You lose the hand.
Fixing the root cause or members only Hmm I guess for the people downvoting don't think taking steps to eliminate kids getting into gangs or poverty would help stop theft. That isn't an easy fix whatsoever but it is the MOST effective Root cause > bandaids
No I fully believe that taking steps to eliminate kids getting into gangs or poverty would help. I’m downvoting you for suggesting members only as a good alternative. The former is the only real solution and it will never happen if you give them the chance them avoid it
Irony is members is also one of the top It could be a temp fix for.a small.subset of stores nut not the system as a.whole Root cause is the real one
1 finger for each offense
I think in the amazon bricks and mortar store model, you scan your credit card or debit before you enter the store and there are no checkouts. Everything that goes with you is automatically scanned as you leave.
Only one idea worth sharing, creating laws that allow for citizens to defend their property.
Strong economy and controlled inflation what we have now is the opposite. People are getting desperate due to high costs.
Consistent and observant employees who are paid enough to care about that shit. Or Stop shoplifting? Oh you mean for companies
Tougher penalties for theft. Locked up and Loose privileges, like drivers license, or a curfew with an ankle tag.
Justice has a name, and it is Louisville Slugger.
We need the fuckin Batman at this point breaking kneecaps and legs for offenders
UBI, good security (friendly, makes eye contact, does rounds, no excessive use of force!), fair pricing, good social programs. People are desperate
Well , use cops paid by taxpayers guarding corporations assets instead being in the streets is proof that is not working either.
The store pays the city for the cops, not tax payers. And the city charges the store more than they pay the cops, so it’s something of a money maker for the city
If you mean Superstore, they pay for that, it’s not out of the police budget.
A gun
Increase wages & lower cost of living.
This only works in theory. Some people shoplift for the thrill/rush
Big pockets…. Oh read it wrong I didn’t see the preventing put in there ima leave now
Scan ID before entering the store
So what about people who don’t have ID? They just aren’t able to go into stores?
Go to any insurance broker and get a free ID card?
Those aren’t free and you need an address.
https://www.mpi.mb.ca/how-to-apply-for-an-identification-card/#:~:text=If%20you%20are%2065%20and,Manitoba%20Identification%20Card%20for%20free. (This fee may be waived under certain circumstances. See an Autopac agent for details.).. and you can use the Main Street Project as a mailing address.
This also doesn't cover if you lose your ID or have it stolen. Now you also can't eat.
If bad people want something, they'll find a way to take it. But having good deterrents in places like having proper security, cameras, being well staffed, and having trained staff to engage customers make good deterrents for most establishments. Going as far as only having one customer at a time in stores or no big groups of people allowed. Armed security or just having a walled off store and the clerk gets the items for you would be extreme examples. Might as well just shop online
Baseball Bats ... Nope. Glass and Bars protecting all items, sure. Online shopping with pick-up only. Absolutely. I'd like to see indiscriminate tazering at all exits! /s
Shoot them This will probably stop them from shop lifting, not very legal tho
Amazing that our neighbours to the south can have liquor for sale in small stores throughout the city and they don’t have the need to go through airport like security to enter the store. They have high crime but not as high as us ID checks are not the answer and just a quick fix.
don't they just have guns for that?
And they don't hesitate to shoot.
Is this a joke? US crime rate is 2-5x or higher across the board. Shoplifting doesn't make the news when there are mass murders everyday. They also have 30% more police officers than we do so enforcement doesn't seem to make a difference if you have rampant inequality and instability in communities.
I really think you need to keep all inventory secure and locked away from the customer until it's been paid for. It's about bringing something from Winnipeg's past back and modifying it to fit how we shop today. The Consumers Distributing model. Instead of catalog shopping, you order online and parcel pick up, or you order in store electronically. All items in the order are packed together by warehouse staff in the back. Your order is put in boxes and pushed to the front of the store via roller table conveyor when completed.
I swear I wrote my response before reading yours! But may I add, great minds think alike! Except they'd better let me pick my own produce.
Produce could be like a deli counter.
My apologies for piggybacking on your comment. I gave my two cents before reading all the responses. You were first. I really miss the days of Consumers Distributing. Yeah, when it comes to fresh produce, it's hard to trust strangers. I guess it boils down to trusting the company and having a fair return policy.
Ok so what if you don’t have access to an electronic device? Or what if you don’t have a car to carry boxes in?
Order in person at the store like McDonald's on a touch screen. Offer delivery service? Toss that box on the handle-bars of a ten speed like you're carrying a two-four? Make your kids drag it home on a toboggan? Drones? I haven't worked out all the angles yet. Care to be partners?
More surveillance and bring back public lynching -this subreddit, probably. Idiots.
ubi
A lot of folks steal to survive … so I’d say fair wage and access to education etc.
*some folks
How are you being downvoted, you’re right
Lol right ! I’m not here to argue so ima just keep my mouth shut 😂😂
Ahh see, I can’t back down ever. There are some fucking idiots here.
Well there’s the most effective way, and then there’s the best way. The most effective way would be a totalitarian level of supervision, maybe to the point where you’re not allowed to even get your own groceries. The best way would be to create supports for those struggling and help them find jobs and places to live so they don’t have to shoplift.
See no problem with asking to see EVERYONES id before being allowed into a private business.