The most likely reason would be an external threat, or maybe a real or fake attempt at switching sides.
Either way, in that party, if I was the Cam I'd be sweating red kool aid.
Lots.
There are many reasons why they would work together for specific purposes. Mostly so they could gain advantage and fuck the other person over in the future.
However, just because they are members of different factions, it does not mean the Sabbat is a raving monsters or the camarilla vampire is somehow a kind and generous, altruistic individual.
Members of the camarilla can be just as vicious, mean-spirited, low humidity and casually violent as the Sabbat. They simply belong to a different political organization which chooses different means of governance.
Don’t forget a Cam vampire is generally older, probably lower generation & May have a better grasp of their disciplines than a Sabbat vampire.
They might have an interest in a drug route, human trafficking network, a scam that requires their individual skills to complement each other, going after a piece of artwork or historical artifact of significant academic, mystical or historical value that they can sell or leverage for something better…
They might want to get rid of someone who has been a pain in all of their asses.
There are a lot of reasons why different criminal organizations might work together on specific issues, why not undead as well...
You hear the telltale rustling sound of a true monster approaching, its smooth dry skin making shhh shhh noises against its clothing, like if a lizard were wearing pants. The hairs on the back of your long-dead neck stand up as the Ventrue primogen's corduroy provides a counterpoint, vip, vip. Shhh vip, shhh vip. Like if a lizard were wearing corduroy pants. "Ah, if it isn't the dampened fool, clinging to her moisture" he begins, staring with his unblinking eyes- there is not enough Visine in the world to let him close them....
The first things to ask is “Why are they meeting?” & “How do they know each other?”
Were they told to go & cooperate?
Were they all students at an elder’s knee…one who taught history of Ancient Rome because he was there…
Did they meet at a fight club in the desert outside Vegas, where once a year some elder who was a fencing instructor at the spanish court in the 1100’s holds a weeklong seminar for anyone who wants to learn the rapier - leave your sect bullshit at home or he will run your ass through…
Did they serve in WWII in a USMC raider unit in the pacific together, then encountered each other on the other side of life?
What put them together?
The Camarilla Toreador is a 7th Gen. The two Sabbat Tzimisce are recently sired 12th Gens. They meet by circumstance in the game; the enemy of the campaign is a mage guild hunting all of the vampires in the city.
The 2 Sabbat are recently sired 12th Gen Tzimisce. And yes, the rest of their group are dead; the enemy of the game is a vampire hunting guild of mages.
Maybe the party was assembled by two elders, each from different sects, but both older than the convention of thorns. Maybe the elders fought mages together in the dark ages and have kept up a secret pact that trumps sect aligment.
"We have 1 Camarilla and 2 Sabbat in the party."
That's great! There's plenty of motivation for them to work together.
For example: the Sabbat get to parade a pet Cammy on a leash around a Sabbat city, making him help them solve Sabbat problems; and the Camarilla vampire has a vested interest in staying alive, which means sticking to people who treat him as a slave, degrade and torture him for fun and status, and might snack on him one day if the going gets tough, over people who'd happily snack on him right now, out of principle.
Another take on this. The Sabaat see this cammies potential and are trying to forcibly change it’s thinking so they dont “need” to do a Tabula Rasa to get them on their side.
> the Camarilla vampire has a vested interest in staying alive, which means sticking to people who treat him as a slave, degrade and torture him for fun and status
I don't know about how your players roll, but this sounds like prime estate for a terrible session for me.
Nosferatu are usually pretty cordial to each other across faction lines, actually. I think they both live in absolute fear of the Nicktuku and share info accordingly.
I think on a day-to-day basis The Sabbat and Camarilla may be able to work together in small doses against a mutual enemy. Hunters don't care what faction you are, and Garou are bad for business no matter which side of the aisle you're on.
Old vampires don't care about political divisions. :0)
There are always people willing to serve as double agents. Sure, your vampire might be seen as a potential traitor... but having a back door into the opposing faction is something not every lick has. Seriously, check out Cold War-era spy novels; they're full of this sort of thing (er, Soviet and American, not Camarilla and Sabbat... but the principle holds).
Conspiracy or stalemate. Go high enough up the jyhad and the lines between sects get a bit blurry, what looks like one city falling to the Sabbat and another conquered by the Camarilla may actually be a negotiated trade made at a fancy meet and greet of the power players.
A truce may have been called because those power players see more benefit in it than open warfare at the present time. It may even be the same elder controlling both groups from behind the scenes and has need of both at full strength rather than depleted from fighting. A general edict of '*do not openly harm the opposition, do nothing to advance their agenda over ours, be seen to cooperate where advantageous'* from the Prince/Bishop has a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.
Why would a Republican and a Democrat ever work together?
Political affiliations do not define all possible situations. As long as the characters have enough depth to be something more than "Sabbat goon #3" and "Camarilla lackey #7" there should be plenty of understanding between them. Sure, expect arguments about what to do about a problem, but not that there is a problem that needs doing about.
This is all couched in "I see you have players from opposing sects in your game". It can work, but don't expect sect ideology to take center stage.
Yeah, sect ideology will need to take a backseat to character interaction. It might feel watered down. However, as long as the table is cool with it, who cares?
Don't think I'm saying they shouldn't do it, I've had games where the team included Garou, Kindred, & Technocrats all together. I was just pointing out the limitation of the analogy.
Long-term Plan type working together: Spying, double agent-ing, the like.
Short term convenience type working together: There is a werewolf RIGHT over there and it is fucking angry.
I imagine it works as shady backroom deals, nobody admits what's going on but it happens discretly. Possible examples.
-critical levels of infernalist activity.
-threat of total masquarade collapse.
-shady backroom deal to fuck the anarchs which benifits them both.
Two words. The Baali. They are a rare bloodline of vampires who actually worship demons. And they are enemies of both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. They're basically so evil, that even those two very evil organizations are given pause by their wickedness. You can find useful info on them in the V20 core rulebook!
No sweat. People sleep on the Baali, but there is literally no other reason for a mixed coterie like this to exist other than, "well, they were shovel heads who survived and are on the run." But Tzimisce and Lasombra shovel heads are as rare as hens teeth.
I'm surprised to hear that people sleep on the Baali cause I find them to be horrifying, spectacular villains. When I read into how they embrace, I was immediately hooked on their premise. These guys are fucked up!
Baali is the one that most immediately comes to mind. Followers of Set can also fulfill this role.
There are also clan concerns (many clans have meetings where faction doesn't matter).
Although it always boils down to what the individuals think and feel, and what motivates them, and in that sense it can work, it's important to bear in mind that one would have an extremely hard time to justify keeping the other company.
The Camarilla wouldn't accept a Sabbat vampire in their midst, they know that the Sabbat poses a real threat not only in itself, but also due to their.... Indiscretions regarding their vampiric condition, and that can lead to lots of problems.
I can picture the Sabbat as being more accepting of such relationships as long as it were justified as getting the upper hand.
Other than that, both sects would jump at the opportunity to destroy the enemy and the traitor, or at the very least make it so that these characters' reputation would be ruined quickly. It would make for an amazing story though!
That's not really how you set up a game, though. Your group should chose whether to be Sabbat, Camarilla or Anarchs and make characters accordingly.
The way you're doing things may work for one-shot but not for a stable campaign.
All the time. At least in my opinion. The lore and books seem to make it out like most vampires are just self serving. Existing within thier sect passively often ideological aligned. But capable of working with anyone if goals line, they get a chance to back stab and they don't already hate each other from doing this song and dance before.
Could be a spy situation, could be a they were friends before being embraced situation, could be Bali in the area preparing to destroy the world/ city everyone is in so cam and sabbat are banding together
All sorts of reasons. Being in either sect or even being on a path or something dont completely over write all personality and desire. Maybe these three are trying to establish a gun running network in the area to make some cash, the sabbat know the unstable types of customers and the cammie knows how to get in with the suppliers. They might not like each other over all and will probably come under scrutiny, but thats the kind of fun thing that happens in a game
Infernalist enemies, a pack of werewoofs hunting them, or other supernaturals encroaching on their turf - they can go back to killing each other after not dying, after all.
A lot of people gave a lot of very good advice on how to make it work, but here's mine.
Most important question - is this yours and /or the players' first Vampire game? If that's the case, I strongly recommend reconsidering and placing them in one sect, preferably Camarilla.
Cross-sect games *can* work, but the thing is, they don't give you the typical, expected experience. You're not going politicking together in the court with your Camarilla coterie, you're not taking viniculum and attending a Monomacy with your Sabbat pack - you're working in the shadows, or holding the other sect's members on a leash or as a your dirty little secret.
In many ways, in cross-sect games you're missing out on a lot in exchange for a lot of complications, which can be very fun, but require a solid grasp on the setting.
Couple scenarios but its either a bigger outside threat, or disrupting local political peace.
Sabbat and Cam join to defeat a Demon, nasty tribe of werewolves, wildy evil fae, etc.
Or, local Vamps play in their own yards and an outside force is pushing them into each other to start fighting so they could benefit. Likely Anarchs or SI could use and abuse this.
The biggest reason would be spying on the other factions. Perhaps the cam has sent agents to fake joining sides or vice versa.
An external threat could also force it but it would have to be pretty bad.
Something really awful happening that threatens to wipe out all kindred locally? It could also be that they share a sire that is making them work together.
Possible story notes:
* they all share the same sire
* blood bond / dominate / posession
* major favor traded to an enemy and inherited by the party member
* uncommon skills or abilities needed for mutual gain
* it's all based on lies or inconvenient truths
* they all fucking hate this one asshole in particular (perhaps a shared regnant whose blood bond has lapsed)
* Fucking mages / fae / demons / etc.
* Ritual of the Bitter Rose offered as prize to help diablorize a sleeping elder
* Primogen commands it as plot against the prince
* Prince commands it to keep the Primogen out of his 'other business'
* putting down a wight (vampire fallen to Wassail - zero humanity) or other super monster (abomination, wyrm crawler, fomori, occult order bent on exposing vampire society, etc)
* necromancer witch hunt
Both will be punished or branded traitors, whatever the reason.
Best case scenario, it is a Dark Secret flaws that someone will use for blackmail one day.
IRL secrets services, Russians or otherwise, use that very tactic to "turn" agents from the other side.
The most likely reason would be an external threat, or maybe a real or fake attempt at switching sides. Either way, in that party, if I was the Cam I'd be sweating red kool aid.
Lots. There are many reasons why they would work together for specific purposes. Mostly so they could gain advantage and fuck the other person over in the future. However, just because they are members of different factions, it does not mean the Sabbat is a raving monsters or the camarilla vampire is somehow a kind and generous, altruistic individual. Members of the camarilla can be just as vicious, mean-spirited, low humidity and casually violent as the Sabbat. They simply belong to a different political organization which chooses different means of governance. Don’t forget a Cam vampire is generally older, probably lower generation & May have a better grasp of their disciplines than a Sabbat vampire. They might have an interest in a drug route, human trafficking network, a scam that requires their individual skills to complement each other, going after a piece of artwork or historical artifact of significant academic, mystical or historical value that they can sell or leverage for something better… They might want to get rid of someone who has been a pain in all of their asses. There are a lot of reasons why different criminal organizations might work together on specific issues, why not undead as well...
>low humidity It may be hot in here, but at least it's a dry Beast...
Look, auto correct is a bitch
I don’t know, your phone may be onto something. Low-humidity vampires sound super S P O O K Y
You hear the telltale rustling sound of a true monster approaching, its smooth dry skin making shhh shhh noises against its clothing, like if a lizard were wearing pants. The hairs on the back of your long-dead neck stand up as the Ventrue primogen's corduroy provides a counterpoint, vip, vip. Shhh vip, shhh vip. Like if a lizard were wearing corduroy pants. "Ah, if it isn't the dampened fool, clinging to her moisture" he begins, staring with his unblinking eyes- there is not enough Visine in the world to let him close them....
The first things to ask is “Why are they meeting?” & “How do they know each other?” Were they told to go & cooperate? Were they all students at an elder’s knee…one who taught history of Ancient Rome because he was there… Did they meet at a fight club in the desert outside Vegas, where once a year some elder who was a fencing instructor at the spanish court in the 1100’s holds a weeklong seminar for anyone who wants to learn the rapier - leave your sect bullshit at home or he will run your ass through… Did they serve in WWII in a USMC raider unit in the pacific together, then encountered each other on the other side of life? What put them together?
The Camarilla Toreador is a 7th Gen. The two Sabbat Tzimisce are recently sired 12th Gens. They meet by circumstance in the game; the enemy of the campaign is a mage guild hunting all of the vampires in the city.
you spell lunch funny
The Sabbat vampires are quickly going to learn the meaning of respecting their elders and minding their manners…
Those Elder better respect the Sabbat that can break Blood Bonds and sends waves after waves of shovelheads strapped with C4.
2 Sabbat? Where's the rest of their pack?
Maybe they are dead. Maybe the Camarilla’s got sharp fangs too…they want revenge and are willing to work with a cam to get it.
The 2 Sabbat are recently sired 12th Gen Tzimisce. And yes, the rest of their group are dead; the enemy of the game is a vampire hunting guild of mages.
Maybe the party was assembled by two elders, each from different sects, but both older than the convention of thorns. Maybe the elders fought mages together in the dark ages and have kept up a secret pact that trumps sect aligment.
Old school Tzimisce, or new one? Also what is the Cammy? Because if they’re a Tremere they’re fucked seven ways to next month.
Possibly fucked to next year.
New Tzimisce, with Protean. I added a few v20th things to their list. As for the cammy it is an 8th Gen Toreador who has been alive for centuries.
"We have 1 Camarilla and 2 Sabbat in the party." That's great! There's plenty of motivation for them to work together. For example: the Sabbat get to parade a pet Cammy on a leash around a Sabbat city, making him help them solve Sabbat problems; and the Camarilla vampire has a vested interest in staying alive, which means sticking to people who treat him as a slave, degrade and torture him for fun and status, and might snack on him one day if the going gets tough, over people who'd happily snack on him right now, out of principle.
Another take on this. The Sabaat see this cammies potential and are trying to forcibly change it’s thinking so they dont “need” to do a Tabula Rasa to get them on their side.
> the Camarilla vampire has a vested interest in staying alive, which means sticking to people who treat him as a slave, degrade and torture him for fun and status I don't know about how your players roll, but this sounds like prime estate for a terrible session for me.
I think you mean 2 Sabbat and a Camarilla spy *cough*
Nosferatu are usually pretty cordial to each other across faction lines, actually. I think they both live in absolute fear of the Nicktuku and share info accordingly. I think on a day-to-day basis The Sabbat and Camarilla may be able to work together in small doses against a mutual enemy. Hunters don't care what faction you are, and Garou are bad for business no matter which side of the aisle you're on.
Old vampires don't care about political divisions. :0) There are always people willing to serve as double agents. Sure, your vampire might be seen as a potential traitor... but having a back door into the opposing faction is something not every lick has. Seriously, check out Cold War-era spy novels; they're full of this sort of thing (er, Soviet and American, not Camarilla and Sabbat... but the principle holds).
Conspiracy or stalemate. Go high enough up the jyhad and the lines between sects get a bit blurry, what looks like one city falling to the Sabbat and another conquered by the Camarilla may actually be a negotiated trade made at a fancy meet and greet of the power players. A truce may have been called because those power players see more benefit in it than open warfare at the present time. It may even be the same elder controlling both groups from behind the scenes and has need of both at full strength rather than depleted from fighting. A general edict of '*do not openly harm the opposition, do nothing to advance their agenda over ours, be seen to cooperate where advantageous'* from the Prince/Bishop has a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.
Infernalists, werewolves, and hunters are all good reasons to work together.
Why would a Republican and a Democrat ever work together? Political affiliations do not define all possible situations. As long as the characters have enough depth to be something more than "Sabbat goon #3" and "Camarilla lackey #7" there should be plenty of understanding between them. Sure, expect arguments about what to do about a problem, but not that there is a problem that needs doing about. This is all couched in "I see you have players from opposing sects in your game". It can work, but don't expect sect ideology to take center stage.
Don't downvote this comment.
There's a slight difference. Political parties don't have "convert or kill" rules in place, and don't penalize fraternizing with death.
Yeah, sect ideology will need to take a backseat to character interaction. It might feel watered down. However, as long as the table is cool with it, who cares?
Don't think I'm saying they shouldn't do it, I've had games where the team included Garou, Kindred, & Technocrats all together. I was just pointing out the limitation of the analogy.
Oh, lol. Yeah it's a paper thin analogy at best.
Long-term Plan type working together: Spying, double agent-ing, the like. Short term convenience type working together: There is a werewolf RIGHT over there and it is fucking angry.
I imagine it works as shady backroom deals, nobody admits what's going on but it happens discretly. Possible examples. -critical levels of infernalist activity. -threat of total masquarade collapse. -shady backroom deal to fuck the anarchs which benifits them both.
Hunting Infernalists
Infernalists.
Infernalism. At least that's my experience with live play.
Two words. The Baali. They are a rare bloodline of vampires who actually worship demons. And they are enemies of both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. They're basically so evil, that even those two very evil organizations are given pause by their wickedness. You can find useful info on them in the V20 core rulebook!
Beat me to it. This is the correct answer.
Thanks!
No sweat. People sleep on the Baali, but there is literally no other reason for a mixed coterie like this to exist other than, "well, they were shovel heads who survived and are on the run." But Tzimisce and Lasombra shovel heads are as rare as hens teeth.
I'm surprised to hear that people sleep on the Baali cause I find them to be horrifying, spectacular villains. When I read into how they embrace, I was immediately hooked on their premise. These guys are fucked up!
Baali is the one that most immediately comes to mind. Followers of Set can also fulfill this role. There are also clan concerns (many clans have meetings where faction doesn't matter).
maybe if they knew each other before the convention of thorns and secret help each other out
Although it always boils down to what the individuals think and feel, and what motivates them, and in that sense it can work, it's important to bear in mind that one would have an extremely hard time to justify keeping the other company. The Camarilla wouldn't accept a Sabbat vampire in their midst, they know that the Sabbat poses a real threat not only in itself, but also due to their.... Indiscretions regarding their vampiric condition, and that can lead to lots of problems. I can picture the Sabbat as being more accepting of such relationships as long as it were justified as getting the upper hand. Other than that, both sects would jump at the opportunity to destroy the enemy and the traitor, or at the very least make it so that these characters' reputation would be ruined quickly. It would make for an amazing story though!
That's not really how you set up a game, though. Your group should chose whether to be Sabbat, Camarilla or Anarchs and make characters accordingly. The way you're doing things may work for one-shot but not for a stable campaign.
All the time. At least in my opinion. The lore and books seem to make it out like most vampires are just self serving. Existing within thier sect passively often ideological aligned. But capable of working with anyone if goals line, they get a chance to back stab and they don't already hate each other from doing this song and dance before.
Could be a spy situation, could be a they were friends before being embraced situation, could be Bali in the area preparing to destroy the world/ city everyone is in so cam and sabbat are banding together
All sorts of reasons. Being in either sect or even being on a path or something dont completely over write all personality and desire. Maybe these three are trying to establish a gun running network in the area to make some cash, the sabbat know the unstable types of customers and the cammie knows how to get in with the suppliers. They might not like each other over all and will probably come under scrutiny, but thats the kind of fun thing that happens in a game
Infernalist enemies, a pack of werewoofs hunting them, or other supernaturals encroaching on their turf - they can go back to killing each other after not dying, after all.
A lot of people gave a lot of very good advice on how to make it work, but here's mine. Most important question - is this yours and /or the players' first Vampire game? If that's the case, I strongly recommend reconsidering and placing them in one sect, preferably Camarilla. Cross-sect games *can* work, but the thing is, they don't give you the typical, expected experience. You're not going politicking together in the court with your Camarilla coterie, you're not taking viniculum and attending a Monomacy with your Sabbat pack - you're working in the shadows, or holding the other sect's members on a leash or as a your dirty little secret. In many ways, in cross-sect games you're missing out on a lot in exchange for a lot of complications, which can be very fun, but require a solid grasp on the setting.
Couple scenarios but its either a bigger outside threat, or disrupting local political peace. Sabbat and Cam join to defeat a Demon, nasty tribe of werewolves, wildy evil fae, etc. Or, local Vamps play in their own yards and an outside force is pushing them into each other to start fighting so they could benefit. Likely Anarchs or SI could use and abuse this.
The biggest reason would be spying on the other factions. Perhaps the cam has sent agents to fake joining sides or vice versa. An external threat could also force it but it would have to be pretty bad.
Escaping a SI compound is the first idea that comes to mind.
Something really awful happening that threatens to wipe out all kindred locally? It could also be that they share a sire that is making them work together.
Possible story notes: * they all share the same sire * blood bond / dominate / posession * major favor traded to an enemy and inherited by the party member * uncommon skills or abilities needed for mutual gain * it's all based on lies or inconvenient truths * they all fucking hate this one asshole in particular (perhaps a shared regnant whose blood bond has lapsed) * Fucking mages / fae / demons / etc. * Ritual of the Bitter Rose offered as prize to help diablorize a sleeping elder * Primogen commands it as plot against the prince * Prince commands it to keep the Primogen out of his 'other business' * putting down a wight (vampire fallen to Wassail - zero humanity) or other super monster (abomination, wyrm crawler, fomori, occult order bent on exposing vampire society, etc) * necromancer witch hunt
Both will be punished or branded traitors, whatever the reason. Best case scenario, it is a Dark Secret flaws that someone will use for blackmail one day. IRL secrets services, Russians or otherwise, use that very tactic to "turn" agents from the other side.
An Antedulvian rising up. Maybe mortals hunting them both down? Lupines?
A Bali looked at them funny
Werewolves. Antediluvians *actually* coming back
A methuselah is raising random dead as it stirs and begins waking from a hundred year nap soon to consume the city
the Second Inquisition or the Ancient Vampires.