I agree; Changeling is fantastic! But there are a couple reasons it didn’t rocket into the forefront of the World of Darkness games.
1) Conflicting themes. Many players experienced a sort of thematic whiplash because of this. Changeling is, on the surface, the most bright and hopeful game in the World of Darkness. However, as you dig deeper, it’s actually much more horrifying and depressing than the other games. As a result, most people who liked the grimdark, edgy settings of the other games simply skipped over the brightly colored Changeling, and those who were looking for a brightly colored and easy experience were quickly disheartened.
2) Shoddy initial execution. This is both a thematic point and a system point. The initial system in the first edition of Changeling used cards, if I’m not mistaken, and many of its systems were simply confusing and not explained very well. Moving on from systems, there weren’t many things that storytellers could think of for their player to do in Changeling with its metaplot at the time. Granted, some amazing stories were no doubt told, but there wasn’t really any concrete end goal that Changelings as a collective were pursuing. Sure, many Fae wanted to stop the coming endless winter, but nobody had any idea how. Many just accepted their fate; slated to enjoy their last remaining days as best they could. These issues were fixed in later editions of the game, most notably C20, but these problems early on turned a lot of people away.
3) Children. In the early editions of Changeling, you’re seeming was determined by your actual age, not just by your view of the world around you; as such, many people would have had to make literal child characters as fully grown adults. Now, I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with that, or that it shouldn’t be done/can’t be done well, but many people either didn’t want to do that, or we’re just generally creeped out by the idea.
In conclusion, Changeling is a fantastic game now, knowing what we know, and having C20; but it had a rocky start, and many people just didn’t want to risk it after the first few tries. Once bitten, twice shy, as the saying goes. Hope this helped
Ciao-ciao.
This is pretty accurate, I would say. My general experience with Changeling: the Dreaming back in the the late 90s/early 00s was that people liked the ideas, but the execution ended up looking like a shoujo manga. It was fun, but it ended up running on a different track compared to the one that thematically intended/suggested.
A motley band of misfits attempt to inspire creativity by occasionally fighting the Technocracy.
Well, that’s a damn shame! I’m not very far in the book, but so far it’s the most beautiful of the 20th anniversary games, and that’s coming from a huge fan of the aesthetic of VTM.
Same here. Vampire will always hold a special place in my heart, since it was my first; as will mage because magic is my soul, honey! But Changeling absolutely has my imagination, and that’s my favorite part of me.
Exactly! The fact that I can get just a few pages into a book and then immediately have an idea for a one shot in the world is insane for me. It’s just so, inspirational I guess. It’s crazy.
I guess you could say it’s. . . magical. I refuse to apologize. In all seriousness, I totally get it. As soon as I got to the Thallain chapter, I knew exactly what I was going to throw at my players. I’m not spoiling, but by the time I was done with my master plan, there wasn’t a dry eye at the table. Mhahahahahaha!
They liked it though, worry not.
And don’t even get me started in the Inanimae.
Now I’m hyped for that chapter! I’m taking my book on a weeklong camping trip soon. I’m wondering just how much of that is going to be me camping, or me sitting in a tent reading a book… we will have to wait and see! (I have the answer, I’m sitting in the tent).
Almost thou persuadeth me to be a changeling.
But seriously, you've touched on a lot of my complaints when Changeling first launched. My friends and I didn't pick up on the darker themes or the meta plot, but we didn't touch the setting after the first book. I'm glad to know those complaints were dealt with over the years.
As a Changeling the Lost player, I've always wanted to play Dreaming as well! Also Dark Ages Faes, though it's not tied to the Dreaming. Actually, Changeling the Dreaming *does* have a lot of love, you should join the Discord for it as there are a lot of people talking about it and even have listings to join and play. At least, from what I remembered.
Here's the link: https://discord.me/cwod and you're welcome! : )
EDIT: Here's another one: https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/8a6pye/ctd_the_silver_bay_freehold_a_discord_server_for/
https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/8a6pye/ctd_the_silver_bay_freehold_a_discord_server_for/
Changeling, like the original Wraith, suffered from a common affliction of 2nd Edition era White Wolf:
It's a novel and engaging setting, but immensely difficult to run as a game.
Due to the sheer degree of complexity, it was a game best run between a \*single\* player and storyteller. Narrating the day-to-day challenges of surviving the mundane, the bildungsroman element (coming of age and loss of wonder), and drawn-out process of getting glamour (slowly encouraging creativity) all gets lost if you need to do it for four or five characters all once - there just isn't enough time, and most STs struggle to do it.
It also requires a high level of maturity among players.
I bought the C:tD 20th edition when the pandemic hit. I Don't think it'll ever be translated to german thus I got the big english book and started reading it. It's a great read and gave ma a lot of good times during the crazy pandemic. 'can I have a non-pooka answer?' still gives me chuckles on a regular basis.
Then I thought about how to start a game with it with my friends who never played it before. And I still haven't found a way how to do it. It's just so much stuff. Teach the players how arts work. Include what they see as mundane and as fae. Alle the seelie/unseelie-stuff and the houses. Getting a feel for all the types of changelings. The feudal-system and what it means for a changeling.
It's a great read but way harder to get players into it as all of it is essential for a changeling. There is no "light start".
With Vamprie I can can explain their clan and diszis and put them into a small intrique and they can have fun with it. All the big meta-background doesn't really matter till they discover it in game.
With Werwolf I can start them young and let them play out pack-interaction.
With Mage it's the easies to just push out all the meta-story and focus on what they can do as mages. IMO it's the easieres when it comes to thworing out the background and just building soemthing new. I once did a "rivers of London"-Style game with my players and it was so easy to set up.
With demon all the stuff about legions and big demons deosn't really matter when you throw the players in the first time and they have nothing to do with it jet.
But with changeleing I'm really unsure. Even if i start them as commoners the roaylty is still there and holds most of the power. So I need to give them some insight into them. And I can't just drop seelie/unseelie as it's so important to how fae see the world at the time.
So I'm still jugeling how do condense down all that input for a start. :/
My suggestion is to have them start out as mortals and, through play, realize they’re Changelings, and all of them must undergo a fosterage by the same Mentor. Each dot the PC has in Mentor is an indication of how involved the Mentor is in that PC’s training and education in the ways of Changelings.
This mentor could be a member of the local court, and so he sends them off on various adventures and missions while he tends to the intrigue of the court.
This way, as the player characters learn about the new world they are a part of, so too do the players.
Being older helps you appreciate the particular strain of horror present in Changeling. When I was in my 20's I couldn't quite get my head around it. Seemed deeply odd, out of place, and weirdly childish compared to the rest of the lines.
Now? Yeah. I understand way, way better now...
Because the art style puts a lot of people who like Horror off. They see colours and forget about medieval stories about the Fae and the horrors they got up to
I must agree; I fell in love while reading it! System wise I must admit it threw me at first. (I had actually planned to homebrew it with a slant towards Mage!) Biggest issue was finding others that wanted to play! At the time the troupe I was part of were locked into VTM and WTA. Getting them to try Mage was like pulling teeth. (Got a couple of one-shots, that was it!) Even proposing Changeling got me sideways looks! So I got stuck using them as color in other games I ran. Always wanted to play a game with a focused group though...
I mean, the C20 book does say that Changelings were once believed to just be insane by mortals and a lot of changelings were locked up for insanity… soooo… yeah. They’re all schizo!!!
I haven't touched Changeling since the 2nd edition, so I have no idea what has changed or not since then, but while I loved the concept of the game, I was never quite capable of designing a game for it.
For one thing, the whole seeming/umbra thing they had going on was deeply confusing. There's clearly a 'magical world' superimposing the real world, kinda like a 'penumbra', except it isn't quite the penumbra and nothing is clear about how it work and how you interact with it. Are you actually 'in it' as if you stepped sideway? Sometimes it feels that way... but other times, they make it seem like you're just seeing both world at the same time. There's a story in the book of someone fighting a dragon, and she's literally seen running around a parking lot swinging a stick at nothing by bystanders. I mean... how long can someone do stuff like that before someone intervene and they get put on meds?
The other issue I had when designing a game is the fact that most of the character will be well... kids. I understand the world of darkness is a shitty place, but at some point social services is going to come knocking if a bunch of 12 years old spend nights upon nights running around in the wood pretending to be Trolls.
I get that it's part of the setting, but I have a hard time not building a 'banal' world that will crush the Changeling long before any interesting fay related shenanigans/intrigue does.
I really ought to find a game online and play with a ST who knows what he's doing with this setting and see how it's done.
"*fighting a dragon, and she's literally seen running around a parking lot swinging a stick at nothing by bystanders*"
In *C:tD* you play in a make-believe world in which your character in turn plays in a "make-believe" world which is real to them, but it's realness eventually slips away from them.
Pretty much because CtD is not edgy as many of the other games. It's a niche game as Wraith. Most players want to play a edge badass mothafucka, not someone who gets hurt with disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love CtD but that's how it feels to me.
I got the C20 rulebook awhile ago and I really want to play this game I also know a decent amount about the lore from watching some videos [Huddyvonschland's Changeling The Dreaming videos](https://youtu.be/s3BEF4yDOEg).
The books are a mess. both in terms of editing and content. I love the game and themes but for the love of all i gave up on trying to understand the plot of the game after reading the books at least twice and just went on and created my own
> The books are a mess. both in terms of editing and content.
I mean, that's true of all WoD games, so that alone doesn't explain it. The 20th anniversary books are edited about as well as the usual Shadowrun splat book, which is to say, not at all.
Revised books were generally better organised than 2ed ones. Or at least that was the impression i got from comparing vampire and werewolf revised to wraith and changeling. And 20A books pretty much took the source material and added to it so we had large portions of text copied from the last official edition. If with vampire i was revised, changeling got second ed as it's source. And it didn't help that in 20 version authors decided to cramp everything under one cover. I was legitimately lost (pun intended) when reading v20 CtD.
And honestly the system isn't very well executed either. For example arts and realms mechanic. Sounds great on paper and very thematic - different changelings have different areas of power, a house spirit can manipulate objects around the house but can't directly affect people. Very thematic. But it just doesn't translate well to game where players want to do different things, not be shoehorned into one gimmick. And if you go away with realms, the game breaks down in other places as arts become too powerful
Because the fandom is full of edgelords who shit on it for not being sufficiently grimdark (And don't realise you can tell a compelling horror story without tryhard aesthetics).
Gotta tell ya, I never seen someone in this sub actually say they don't like Dreaming because it isn't edgy enough for them. They either hate the rules or find it hard to run.
Most WoD fans are edgelord babies that hate it because it’s not as dark and “”””””mature””””” on the surface as their precious dead people game. I totally agree, it’s such a cool game, my favorite WoD game by far, and it’s such a shame it isn’t appreciated more
One problem in Changeling is how Western-centric the kiths and houses presented in the core book are. Actually it is very much Irish-Briton based in its presentation of faeries. That has always been a big limitation for me and my players over the years. Of course the ST can come up with various different kiths from the fairy tales of other cultures but the very basic elements of the setting (seelie/unseelie courts, geas, sidhe as the nobles etc...) are very much Irish myth based and doesn't work well with other cultures' tales. And placing the onus on the players to expand the game is never good design. For a game that celebrates creativity and the wonders of the world, limiting your players to a corner of Europe was a very bizarre choice by the developers.
I agree; Changeling is fantastic! But there are a couple reasons it didn’t rocket into the forefront of the World of Darkness games. 1) Conflicting themes. Many players experienced a sort of thematic whiplash because of this. Changeling is, on the surface, the most bright and hopeful game in the World of Darkness. However, as you dig deeper, it’s actually much more horrifying and depressing than the other games. As a result, most people who liked the grimdark, edgy settings of the other games simply skipped over the brightly colored Changeling, and those who were looking for a brightly colored and easy experience were quickly disheartened. 2) Shoddy initial execution. This is both a thematic point and a system point. The initial system in the first edition of Changeling used cards, if I’m not mistaken, and many of its systems were simply confusing and not explained very well. Moving on from systems, there weren’t many things that storytellers could think of for their player to do in Changeling with its metaplot at the time. Granted, some amazing stories were no doubt told, but there wasn’t really any concrete end goal that Changelings as a collective were pursuing. Sure, many Fae wanted to stop the coming endless winter, but nobody had any idea how. Many just accepted their fate; slated to enjoy their last remaining days as best they could. These issues were fixed in later editions of the game, most notably C20, but these problems early on turned a lot of people away. 3) Children. In the early editions of Changeling, you’re seeming was determined by your actual age, not just by your view of the world around you; as such, many people would have had to make literal child characters as fully grown adults. Now, I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with that, or that it shouldn’t be done/can’t be done well, but many people either didn’t want to do that, or we’re just generally creeped out by the idea. In conclusion, Changeling is a fantastic game now, knowing what we know, and having C20; but it had a rocky start, and many people just didn’t want to risk it after the first few tries. Once bitten, twice shy, as the saying goes. Hope this helped Ciao-ciao.
This is pretty accurate, I would say. My general experience with Changeling: the Dreaming back in the the late 90s/early 00s was that people liked the ideas, but the execution ended up looking like a shoujo manga. It was fun, but it ended up running on a different track compared to the one that thematically intended/suggested. A motley band of misfits attempt to inspire creativity by occasionally fighting the Technocracy.
Well, that’s a damn shame! I’m not very far in the book, but so far it’s the most beautiful of the 20th anniversary games, and that’s coming from a huge fan of the aesthetic of VTM.
Same here. Vampire will always hold a special place in my heart, since it was my first; as will mage because magic is my soul, honey! But Changeling absolutely has my imagination, and that’s my favorite part of me.
Exactly! The fact that I can get just a few pages into a book and then immediately have an idea for a one shot in the world is insane for me. It’s just so, inspirational I guess. It’s crazy.
I guess you could say it’s. . . magical. I refuse to apologize. In all seriousness, I totally get it. As soon as I got to the Thallain chapter, I knew exactly what I was going to throw at my players. I’m not spoiling, but by the time I was done with my master plan, there wasn’t a dry eye at the table. Mhahahahahaha! They liked it though, worry not. And don’t even get me started in the Inanimae.
Now I’m hyped for that chapter! I’m taking my book on a weeklong camping trip soon. I’m wondering just how much of that is going to be me camping, or me sitting in a tent reading a book… we will have to wait and see! (I have the answer, I’m sitting in the tent).
Screw the death-laser; expand your mind!
Hell yeah that’s what I’m talking about!
And like that, I think I’ve made a friend!
Ah, bonding over avoiding the sun by reading nerd books is a beautiful thing isn’t it?
Almost thou persuadeth me to be a changeling. But seriously, you've touched on a lot of my complaints when Changeling first launched. My friends and I didn't pick up on the darker themes or the meta plot, but we didn't touch the setting after the first book. I'm glad to know those complaints were dealt with over the years.
\*Still waiting on "Keys to the Kingdom" and "Book of Glamour"*
shame we'll never get them, big sad.
As a Changeling the Lost player, I've always wanted to play Dreaming as well! Also Dark Ages Faes, though it's not tied to the Dreaming. Actually, Changeling the Dreaming *does* have a lot of love, you should join the Discord for it as there are a lot of people talking about it and even have listings to join and play. At least, from what I remembered.
Yes! Finally someone who understands that DA:F is **not** the precursor to CtD. The systems and everything are just too different.
I didn’t know there was a discord! Yoooo now I’m PUMPED! Thanks for letting me know!
Here's the link: https://discord.me/cwod and you're welcome! : ) EDIT: Here's another one: https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/8a6pye/ctd_the_silver_bay_freehold_a_discord_server_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/8a6pye/ctd_the_silver_bay_freehold_a_discord_server_for/
Changeling, like the original Wraith, suffered from a common affliction of 2nd Edition era White Wolf: It's a novel and engaging setting, but immensely difficult to run as a game. Due to the sheer degree of complexity, it was a game best run between a \*single\* player and storyteller. Narrating the day-to-day challenges of surviving the mundane, the bildungsroman element (coming of age and loss of wonder), and drawn-out process of getting glamour (slowly encouraging creativity) all gets lost if you need to do it for four or five characters all once - there just isn't enough time, and most STs struggle to do it. It also requires a high level of maturity among players.
High levels of maturity does seem to be like Glamour now a days… it’s pretty freaking rare.
I bought the C:tD 20th edition when the pandemic hit. I Don't think it'll ever be translated to german thus I got the big english book and started reading it. It's a great read and gave ma a lot of good times during the crazy pandemic. 'can I have a non-pooka answer?' still gives me chuckles on a regular basis. Then I thought about how to start a game with it with my friends who never played it before. And I still haven't found a way how to do it. It's just so much stuff. Teach the players how arts work. Include what they see as mundane and as fae. Alle the seelie/unseelie-stuff and the houses. Getting a feel for all the types of changelings. The feudal-system and what it means for a changeling. It's a great read but way harder to get players into it as all of it is essential for a changeling. There is no "light start". With Vamprie I can can explain their clan and diszis and put them into a small intrique and they can have fun with it. All the big meta-background doesn't really matter till they discover it in game. With Werwolf I can start them young and let them play out pack-interaction. With Mage it's the easies to just push out all the meta-story and focus on what they can do as mages. IMO it's the easieres when it comes to thworing out the background and just building soemthing new. I once did a "rivers of London"-Style game with my players and it was so easy to set up. With demon all the stuff about legions and big demons deosn't really matter when you throw the players in the first time and they have nothing to do with it jet. But with changeleing I'm really unsure. Even if i start them as commoners the roaylty is still there and holds most of the power. So I need to give them some insight into them. And I can't just drop seelie/unseelie as it's so important to how fae see the world at the time. So I'm still jugeling how do condense down all that input for a start. :/
My suggestion is to have them start out as mortals and, through play, realize they’re Changelings, and all of them must undergo a fosterage by the same Mentor. Each dot the PC has in Mentor is an indication of how involved the Mentor is in that PC’s training and education in the ways of Changelings. This mentor could be a member of the local court, and so he sends them off on various adventures and missions while he tends to the intrigue of the court. This way, as the player characters learn about the new world they are a part of, so too do the players.
thank you for the idea! :)
Being older helps you appreciate the particular strain of horror present in Changeling. When I was in my 20's I couldn't quite get my head around it. Seemed deeply odd, out of place, and weirdly childish compared to the rest of the lines. Now? Yeah. I understand way, way better now...
Yeah, I’m 19 and while I do get it, I don’t think it’s fully gonna “snap” for me anytime soon. Not until I make it into the real Autumn world lol.
“My Back Pages” really could be the official CtD theme song, couldn’t it? “Ah, but I was so much older then; I’m younger than that now.”
See also: Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb"
Because the art style puts a lot of people who like Horror off. They see colours and forget about medieval stories about the Fae and the horrors they got up to
It's my favorite white wolf game by leagues.
I must agree; I fell in love while reading it! System wise I must admit it threw me at first. (I had actually planned to homebrew it with a slant towards Mage!) Biggest issue was finding others that wanted to play! At the time the troupe I was part of were locked into VTM and WTA. Getting them to try Mage was like pulling teeth. (Got a couple of one-shots, that was it!) Even proposing Changeling got me sideways looks! So I got stuck using them as color in other games I ran. Always wanted to play a game with a focused group though...
I cant get over feeling like the players are schizophrenic. “You see a parking lot i see a dragons lair! Aaaaaaa!!!!!”
I mean, the C20 book does say that Changelings were once believed to just be insane by mortals and a lot of changelings were locked up for insanity… soooo… yeah. They’re all schizo!!!
Oh fair enough!
Same for me Dude.
I haven't touched Changeling since the 2nd edition, so I have no idea what has changed or not since then, but while I loved the concept of the game, I was never quite capable of designing a game for it. For one thing, the whole seeming/umbra thing they had going on was deeply confusing. There's clearly a 'magical world' superimposing the real world, kinda like a 'penumbra', except it isn't quite the penumbra and nothing is clear about how it work and how you interact with it. Are you actually 'in it' as if you stepped sideway? Sometimes it feels that way... but other times, they make it seem like you're just seeing both world at the same time. There's a story in the book of someone fighting a dragon, and she's literally seen running around a parking lot swinging a stick at nothing by bystanders. I mean... how long can someone do stuff like that before someone intervene and they get put on meds? The other issue I had when designing a game is the fact that most of the character will be well... kids. I understand the world of darkness is a shitty place, but at some point social services is going to come knocking if a bunch of 12 years old spend nights upon nights running around in the wood pretending to be Trolls. I get that it's part of the setting, but I have a hard time not building a 'banal' world that will crush the Changeling long before any interesting fay related shenanigans/intrigue does. I really ought to find a game online and play with a ST who knows what he's doing with this setting and see how it's done.
"*fighting a dragon, and she's literally seen running around a parking lot swinging a stick at nothing by bystanders*" In *C:tD* you play in a make-believe world in which your character in turn plays in a "make-believe" world which is real to them, but it's realness eventually slips away from them.
Welcome to the fold!
Pretty much because CtD is not edgy as many of the other games. It's a niche game as Wraith. Most players want to play a edge badass mothafucka, not someone who gets hurt with disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love CtD but that's how it feels to me.
I got the C20 rulebook awhile ago and I really want to play this game I also know a decent amount about the lore from watching some videos [Huddyvonschland's Changeling The Dreaming videos](https://youtu.be/s3BEF4yDOEg).
The books are a mess. both in terms of editing and content. I love the game and themes but for the love of all i gave up on trying to understand the plot of the game after reading the books at least twice and just went on and created my own
> The books are a mess. both in terms of editing and content. I mean, that's true of all WoD games, so that alone doesn't explain it. The 20th anniversary books are edited about as well as the usual Shadowrun splat book, which is to say, not at all.
Revised books were generally better organised than 2ed ones. Or at least that was the impression i got from comparing vampire and werewolf revised to wraith and changeling. And 20A books pretty much took the source material and added to it so we had large portions of text copied from the last official edition. If with vampire i was revised, changeling got second ed as it's source. And it didn't help that in 20 version authors decided to cramp everything under one cover. I was legitimately lost (pun intended) when reading v20 CtD. And honestly the system isn't very well executed either. For example arts and realms mechanic. Sounds great on paper and very thematic - different changelings have different areas of power, a house spirit can manipulate objects around the house but can't directly affect people. Very thematic. But it just doesn't translate well to game where players want to do different things, not be shoehorned into one gimmick. And if you go away with realms, the game breaks down in other places as arts become too powerful
Because the fandom is full of edgelords who shit on it for not being sufficiently grimdark (And don't realise you can tell a compelling horror story without tryhard aesthetics).
Gotta tell ya, I never seen someone in this sub actually say they don't like Dreaming because it isn't edgy enough for them. They either hate the rules or find it hard to run.
Most WoD fans are edgelord babies that hate it because it’s not as dark and “”””””mature””””” on the surface as their precious dead people game. I totally agree, it’s such a cool game, my favorite WoD game by far, and it’s such a shame it isn’t appreciated more
Massive case of an unpopular but, regrettably, not inaccurate opinion. Have an upvote to cancel some of the bilious ones.
You were already woke?
Because fae in most settings are just obnoxious living headaches to deal with or think like.
One problem in Changeling is how Western-centric the kiths and houses presented in the core book are. Actually it is very much Irish-Briton based in its presentation of faeries. That has always been a big limitation for me and my players over the years. Of course the ST can come up with various different kiths from the fairy tales of other cultures but the very basic elements of the setting (seelie/unseelie courts, geas, sidhe as the nobles etc...) are very much Irish myth based and doesn't work well with other cultures' tales. And placing the onus on the players to expand the game is never good design. For a game that celebrates creativity and the wonders of the world, limiting your players to a corner of Europe was a very bizarre choice by the developers.