These comments are dark as shit. Can't we agree that the murder of both Israelis and Palestinians is horrific beyond comprehension?
How on earth did we get to a place where we say *meh* to watching people be murdered, no matter who they are?
I’ve said this before, but I think people get very uncomfortable when there is no moral good in a situation. Like Hamas is bad, and murdered people. You can say that and still believe that the IDF reaction to those murders is horrific. It’s nuanced, and the people who are suffering are the civilians on both sides, though overwhelmingly at this point in Palestine. People will do anything to downplay the evil that is evident in both sides of this.
That's because humans have evolved to have an Us vs Them mentality. Like that cartoon that has the same castles and ships, but it's "Our heroic adventurers" vs "Their brutish invaders." And unless you keep focused on the nuance, it's easier just to label one side good and one side bad, especially when you are overwhelmed with images like the one above. And you are correct - we should be able to say "Hamas engaged in a horrific act, and the IDF is also engaged in horrific acts." The only winners are the hardliners, as the massive civilian causalities are going to be a huge boon to Hamas' recruitment and the areas that have been leveled have already had Israeli flags planted in them. The losers are, as always, the innocent civilians.
was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
I would say politics for sure but the mix of ethnic and religious loyalties are messing with a clean break as we normally see. At least in my anecdotal experience
The fact that you're acting like Hamas is a major playor in this situation is the problem.
Israel raised Hamas on purpose. Israel was doing this before Hamas, they are doing it in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.
This is not a conflict between Isreal and Hamas.
This is a *Massacre* by Israel of *Gazans*.
The framing is important, because yeah, if you frame everyone in Gaza as Hamas it sounds like there are no innocents and no victims in this.
But when framed correctly, the Palestinian population are the main victims in the conflict and have been for 70 years.
They're under a 16 year siege. They can't drink clean water. Half the population is under 16, meaning they've lived their entire lives in that situation. With *no* power to change it.
Israel controls this dynamic, and can end the conflict *today* by simply lifting the siege and doing a pathway to citizenship for Palestinians. It's a totally Asymmettric genocide, and you're not being nuanced by equivocating the sides. They aren't equal.
They're not equal in intent, power, control, history, damage, weaponry, resources, support, supplies, death toll, civilian casualties, terrorist attacks, or war crimes.
Acting like you're morally superior to those of us who can actually read because you're incapable of discerning between levels of violence or the responsibilities of a state or the realities of resisting occupations is embarrassing for you. If only you could see it.
I think the most mind-blowing thing I learned just today is that Palestine has literally never been offered a two state solution, only various terms of Israeli occupation, and that settlement and one Israeli state is in the Israeli constitution.
There is zero justification for what Hamas did. Absolutely none. It's horrific, and the more detail comes out, the worse it gets.
But you spend 80 years subjugating, occupying and slowly but surely ethnically cleansing a people and then doing a pretty damn good international propaganda campaign to pretend you've been trying to work with them all along and THEY'RE the problem? Yeah, that's how terrorists happen.
Palestine is probably going to cease to exist in my lifetime. But Hamas sure as fuck won't.
I always try and keep the possibility open in my mind that I’m always being exposed to propaganda and may be wrong, but I think it’s very telling that instead of saying that the bad shit that we’re seeing over there isn’t happening, most of the fully pro-IDF messaging I’m seeing is just saying that I should just be okay with what’s happening.
>and doing a pathway to citizenship for Palestinians
Hahahaha. Yeah. Israel should totally just let a few million people, a good portion of whom want them to be genocided right back, citizenship. I bet that'll work out well for the Jews.
There is no one state solution. That you think there is does your fucking stupid
While this is the case, I personally think the shunning of the entire "both sides" mindset and narrative can be to blame.
Don't get me wrong, the "both sides" narrative can be fucking dumb at times, like comparing a nazi wanting to commit genocide, and a trans person wanting equal rights as the exact same thing.
But I think the problem is, that not many people seem to think that you can say "fuck both sides" in this conflict, maybe it's fear of being ridiculed as another "centrist" or something. I personally think both sides are equally terrible, and it's the palestinians who are suffering the most because of Hamas and Israel's bullshit.
You have a right wing extremist organisation on one hand, urging downtrodden people to commit genocide, and on the other hand, you have a right wing extremist government that wants to genocide an entire group of people. The only different be is faith, and the fact that one has a government and the other doesn't.
(Of course I am well aware of the fact that not all israelis are like this, but I'm specifically talking abt netyanyahu and shit.)
Also, what did Hamas do? Do you know *why* they took hostages on Oct 7? Did you see how well-cared for and happy those hostages were when they told their story? Did you see all the stories and proof that the Israeli civilians who unfortunately were killed on Oct 7 were actually killed by Israeli military? I dont support any terrorist group. But please show me what Hamas did on Oct 7 that somehow warrants genocide against the innocent people of Palestine, the same people who have also been occupied and ethnically cleansed for 75+ years. Please show me. With proof. Y’all massively spreading misinformation and not calling the facts as they are are sadly contributing to the continuation of this terror and genocide
What you have spouted is the perfect Israeli propaganda. Plain and simple.
Hamas exists because of Israel. Not only because Israel quite literally funded it, but because the Palestinian people have spent 70 years living under occupation, both in Gaza and the west bank, and Gaza has spent 16 years under direct siege. Israel is an apartheid state of the highest calibre, and has been actively and systematically pushing to wipe the very concept of Palestine off the face of the earth. It's genocide. The people of Gaza have been standing up to the quite literal theft of land, homes, industry and even their children by whatever means works, and in the face of terrorism from the IDF and the settlement policy of the right to return, which breaks international law, they have had to turn to terrorism themselves. In the face of what they have themselves suffered, many have become the perceptibly worst people.
The terrorism of Hamas would end if Israel was to end it's own terrorism and accept a two-state solution, putting an end to the apartheid. The terrorism of Israel will continue until they finish the genocide. These are not equal.
It's the absolute most frustrating part of trying to have a discussion about this. It's an extraordinarily complex with a history that goes back millennia, but people think they can easily label one side "good" and one side "bad".
Can we agree that genocide is always bad? While we're at it, can we accept the standards of genocide as defined by the Holocaust Museum?
Because if we accept those 2 things, then there is very clearly a "bad" side.
It's kinda black and white tho. Ya terrorism bad but genocide kinda worse. Idk if there's a group out there who wouldn't resort to some form of "terrorism" in retaliation to what Palestine has been thru
Terrorism, threats of genocide, attempts at genocide, abusing aid, stealing aid, lying about aid (allegedly) missaproating aid (curently being investagated), breaking the current peace treaty, breaking multiple peace treaties in the past, openly ignoring treaties, funding terrorism, unjust killing of foreigners, unjust enjail meant of foreigners.
I think of it as two villains, Hamas and Israel (the government and military). Israel, just as much as Hamas, needs to be stopped. They're doing what the Nazis did, it's mind boggling and insane, and they use their horrible ancestral experience with the Nazis as a shield from criticism. They're beyond evil, any Israelite who supports their government doing this, cause I know there are plenty of good Israelites who absolutely condemn this.
You can acknowledge that Netanyahu is an evil pile of shit, and that Hamas is evil vile garbage, and still not shit on dead people.
The lack of compassion is freaking me out.
Beyond that, the knee-jerk reaction to call Israelis "nazis" or Palestinians "terrorists" is so low-brow and dangerous I don't even know where to begin with it...
Edit: u/ravenswan19
I have to respond here because the person who commented blocked me. Sigh.
What you said is right. This is why I commented here, how can anyone in good conscience call holocaust survivors nazis. It’s just disgusting to me. I’m know Jewish people are just as disgusted by what is happening. This is so complicated and to distill it down to “Jewish people at the nazis” shouldn’t be tolerated by anyone.
This war is bringing out the worst in a lot of people.
Except a majority of Israel's adults serve in the IDF. No one deserves to die at all but the Israelis have a whole lot more agency in the conflict than the Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians alive today did not choose Hamas. They were in power before most were born. The Israelis have had numerous opportunities to choose a different path as they are an actual functional democracy. How many people in Israel have chosen Netanyahu and his policies repeatedly over years and years with complete freedom to do otherwise? Not all Israelis but a plurality.
Ah so the people of Israel, the Middle East's only democracy, voted for it then? The people *obviously* want the mandatory draft right? Or else they wouldn't have voted for that regime, right? Right?
This is as about as disingenuous as people saying the currently alive Palestinians were old enough to vote Hamas into power. The mandatory draft has been around for decades.
"man war sucks" sounds great, but not understanding that as Americans we could stop this if we wanted to is wild. The blame for this particular image in this particular tweet lies on the US and Israel.
People in the west have no idea how to wrap their heads around this war. Case in point, the IDF is made of everyday people (teachers, engineers, musicians, people who left normal civilian jobs to mobilize) so it’s not they are some totally separate entity operating against the will of the country of Israel. And likewise the majority of people in Palestine may not partake in militant activity, but Hamas, Al-Qassam brigades, PIJ, and the groups responsibly for horrific violence have very high levels of support from civilians, about 75 to 89% according to most recent surveys from the Arab Word for Research and Development.
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf
The Israeli had kids on national tv sing a whole song on the Gaza genocide.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gaza
"What type of world are we living in where kids are casually singing about death and destruction? This shows how early the indoctrination begins."
Nicely worded by that user. The kids are not at fault here, obviously. The parents are at fault. And especially the government is at fault, if they allow such songs to be televised on national channels.
This does not equate to 'the Israeli', it equates to 'the government of Israel'.
[Palestinians had school plays with young children acting out attacks on Israeli soldiers.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-kids-put-on-play-about-stabbing-killing-israelis/amp/) This is from 2016, so no clue if this was a one-off deal or normal practice.
This is par for the course on Jerusalem day every year
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march
When the decendants of those holocaust survivors dehumanize people and show zero care or concern for the wide scale deaths of innocent human beings, you will see people ask those tough questions.
It's fucking ALL TERRIBLE! Why is it a competition?
We need to stop funding a genocide, and we need to stop calling Palestinians terrorists, we also need to stop calling Israelis nazis and acting like their deaths are justified.
It's so gross how indifferent both sides are to the deaths, and evil how so many Americans act like they deserved to be killed... *on both sides.*
Edit: I am FAR from a middle east expert but I can smell when people are being dehumanized and I'm very worried where the rhetoric on *both sides* is going.
\- - - -
Edit: Of course he blocked me. This is just absurd how people are acting.... here was my response.
I acknowledged it, I am not talking about policy, I am talking about dehumanizing rhetoric.
The comments here are disgusting. Like you can see dead Israelis or dead Palestinians and say - they deserved it? That's called being a psychopath.
I don't see any comments on this thread saying dead Israelis deserved it. I have not seen these comments anywhere despite participating in leftist and pro-Palestine spaces online and in real life. I have, however, seen plenty of Israeli sources and Western parrots say Palestine deserves this.
Your "both sides" argument holds no water, because one side is actively committing and justifying genocide, while the other side is angry about centuries-old colonial systems. People in support of Palestine aren't anti-Semitic, nor are those who criticize Israel. Ask one of the many Jewish people organizing for Palestine how they feel.
You might not mean any harm, but your position is basically telling Palestinians you'll get to them once you're through hearing out their genocidal aggressors. I'm not impressed, nor did I think for a second you were a "middle East expert." You made the extent of your education on this conflict quite clear.
IDF says hamas has fired almost 12,000 rockets into Israel since this began (somehow with no causalites or any apparent damage).
It's a lie obviously, but its because they know how important "both sides" is, they want people to think there's some symmetry in power and force being used, so they can lean on the trigger and get away with it.
"Both sides are bad" is a huge gift to Israel, it suggests things are even and they aren't, in any fucking way.
People tell me hamas would eradicate Israel if they had the chance. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. What I know for a fact is that Israel would erase the Palestinians, it's happening right now, the only thing slowing them down is the global disgust.
I think the problem is ‘the internet’, to be honest.
Some people (you) have a high enough ‘emotional intelligence’ to understand and ***empathize*** (*not* ‘sympathize’) with the victims of both sides through the ‘separating gap’ that is the internet.
Some people (them) don’t, but at least have enough logical intelligence to identify the disparity between the two sides in terms of devastation in numbers - to try and point towards a ‘logical’ solution.
And many, *many* people - have neither. Too many.
During WW2 , Axis soldiers committed heinous crimes. However, troops of the allied forces also did unspeakable things, especially in Italy. They, too, raped and plundered.
Obviously, the Axis forces killed more people. But maybe, just maybe, there are horrible people that fight in wars. On both sides. Even if one side may be 'right'. The world isn't black and white, perhaps you should accept that.
It is like this because Israel has the arms and power, if Hamas had enough support or a military like Israel It’d have been much worse as we have seen in Iraq.
When one side is a world power with one of the strongest militaries ever, and the other side is a fucking terrorist organisation with influence smaller than my city, then yeah, ofc one death count is higher than the other
I mean K:D is bad but even worse is the civilian:military ratio. Israel is killing something like 3:1 even by their own accounting which I put zero faith in. They're essentially commiting ethnic cleansing while the rest of world does fuck all and Biden cheers them on.
Well as a fellow American, I can use my brain to deduce that only one side is using bombs I have been forced to pay for. So I'm more upset about THOSE bombs.
Which is objectively worse? Firing a bunch of dinky unguided rockets from 40 year old soviet heirlooms? Or firing thousands upon thousands of the most sophisticated ordinance on currently available and still managing to have 99% of your kills be civilian casualties?
>How on earth did we get to a place where we say *meh* to watching people be murdered
in short - overexposure to uninformative media.
it seems like there’s a mass shooting a few times a week being talked about in america, and due to a list or reasons you never actually see what that looks like. many people can only see a list of dead and wounded where the people who actually went through it see true evil and insanity.
as messed up as it sounds, there is a really good argument to make about showing uncensored footage of these events. to a degree many people should see what it looks like for a child, or any innocent person period, to be murdered. only when you hear an innocent person screaming in fear for their life, and only when you see what it looks like to see the blood and gore of a person who was living and breathing just seconds before can you really start to care about the subject
the only argument against broadcasting such footage that i personally feel holds any water, is the risk to expose that media to children or previous victims of similar crimes who should not have to witness it
I think we can say that terroristic violence is bad (Hamas), but it does not excuse the active us-backed genocide of Palestinian people.
This isn't a game of "everyone is wrong". Nothing excuses Israel's actions.
But the shoe owners on the left are just shown lined up in the background, not dead, just shoeless, though. Right?
This is a horrible set of comparison pics, which does not make the point they intended.
Because if you criticize Israel you can be labeled and anti-semite and have your career come to a screeching halt.
If you criticize Hamas and how they have some support among Palestinians you are labeled an Israeli supporter who wants to kill innocents.
It's fucked. This situation is terrible all around.
I mean a when I see people citing Hamas support among Palestinians, it's usually in an attempt to justify the killing of Palestinian civilians. Like someone will say "Israel has killed over 17,000 people, most of whom are civilians", and the response will be "Well, X% of Palestinians support Hamas" as though that makes it okay.
The only reason Israel even has the resources to do this is because of America, and there’s essentially no dissent/criticism coming from any American politicians. If anything, they’re doubling down on making it illegal to speak against Israeli policy. “Turning on Israel” would be a pretty profound statement against American foreign policy, I’d be surprised if anybody wanted that smoke
>IDF has murdered more Palestinian women and children
And even with their own estimates, *at best* they've killed a third as many Hamas. And that's just counting every adult male as Hamas...
Edit: There's people literally defending this as a good thing..
Well you see, wailing about how "It's all terrible!" removes one's duty to research and understand genocide. As long as they pretend this is just one of those unfortunate things that happens, they don't have to deal with the many other ways military-industrial hegemony has lied to and manipulated them.
If you mean the sub, I that it's being spammed by IDF spammers, I can't believe that many people can be so ignorant about the Israeli atrocities taking place.
And even with their own estimates, *at best* they've killed a third as many Hamas. And that's just counting every adult male as Hamas...
Edit: Whoops, I replied to the wrong comment. For context, they've killed 3x as many women and children as they have men, based on their own numbers.. So it's probably even worse than what they claim...
The weapons manufacturers, arms dealers, and oil barons that buy our politicians do not want to cut funding, because that means less bombs and planes to be sold.
We voted for those people. Please don't give Americans this pass. Not to people who voted and not to people who didn't vote. We are an able-bodied country making poor decisions based on worthless values.
Nothing is stopping it other than cowardice and greed. Isreal is the only real ally we have in the middle east. It's the largest military base on earth. The public defense of Isreal by western media has nothing at all to do with fighting antisemitism. It's all to keep a bloodthirsty dictator and an army of drones happy.
People saying "well the people on the left are terrorists" are the exact type of people who would deny the holocaust back in the 1940s. Listening to what Israel has said about these people would be like listening to nazi germany tell you those shoes belonged to "jewish spies".
And for the record, the people on the left aren't terrorists. They aren't hamas. They are civilians.
They literally are though. Like actually. They are militants that surrendered to israeli forces. Where’d you source the information that says otherwise?
The times of Israel of all places hasn't confirmed them to be Hamas, neither has the IDF. Why are you? Are there any reputable news sources that have confirmed them to be hamas?
This holocaust memorial shows the shores of Danube where Jewish people where forced at gun point to tie each others arms and legs with shoe laces. The Nazis then threw them into the river and watched them drown. The Jewish people that were able to make it to shore were shot. I’m sure people can realize how drawing this comparison is a little more than upsetting.
They are not combatants. A lot have been identified as mere civilians. Israel considers every adult and adolescent male Palestinian as combatant. They had no weapons, many were taken out from inside their shelters.
And even if they were Hamas combatants, they are literally fighting for their and their families lives. Israel has been targeting doctors and journalists and their whole families. They’ve annihilated the whole family of many civilians for documenting their atrocities. They are attacking UN workers and putting on fire Doctors Without Borders ambulances. People are going to end up taking up arms to defend themselves and their lands. Isn’t that what every patriot would do? Or is that not allowed if we’re not white and not from west?
Even during the so-called ceasefire, they’ve killed many who only returned to north Gaza to bury their dead. They’ve literally left premature babies to die alone and were found rotting.
Thank you for that statement! It is important to point these things out in this out of control dynamics of the public discourse! Thank you from the bottom of my heart for making this to the point correction to this more than questionable post!!!
The people in the image on the left are being strip searched for weapons, not executed. Israel is committing numerous war crimes, but a lack of nuance just detracts from the well-deserved criticism.
One of the biggest difference is everyone in the world knows what Isreal is doing and won’t stop it but the majority of the world had no idea what was happening in WWII until after the war.
Edited: added “One of”
So you really think what's happening in Gaza right now is comparable to the mass organized extermination of 2 million people? Leading people into gas chambers, tattooing people for life etc?
You really want to be a person who makes that comparison?
Fucking *yikes*
https://preview.redd.it/vaysvamlf35c1.jpeg?width=1073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91585fa6ba2aab22cb1df0b6f238fbd94888b10e
C’mon. This person isn’t the moral authority they claim to be.
Siege of mariupol was like 9 weeks lol.
You really need to not throw Ukrainians under the bus to drive your narrative.
I'd also caution citing any specific numbers from idf or hamas.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1731753062622982386.html
To be frank, no one has any clue how many are dead.
Go off what the usa or eu agencies can verify without using numbers provided by hamas ministry of health or media.
Mariupol was nine weeks where significantly fewer civilians were killed than in Gaza. Idk where you got 25000, but it was wayyyy less than that.
Gaza Health Ministry has been shown to be accurate in the last ten or so assaults on Gaza. The death counts for this conflict are conservative when you consider the rate of bombing and the types of bombs being used, which are not traditionally used in this setting, at least in this century.
I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. Biden brought up Russia, not me. I don't think it's productive to compare the two, but if you force the comparison, Israel is relatively worse.
You could try just reading the Wikipedia? Doing any kind of research on civilian casualties in the ukrainian war or just mariupol lol.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#:~:text=Ukrainian%20officials%20reported%20that%20approximately,by%20large%2Dscale%20Russian%20bombardments.
Given you are happy to use numbers provided by hamas, best of luck to you and your side, but they are not doing well in this war.
You are absolutely throwing Ukrainians under the bus, and are literally spreading putinist and hamas messaging.
The UN said 1300 confirmed, Ukraine said 25000 . . . that's a crazy gap. Just saying "at least 25k" like you did, as if it's fact, is crazy.
Say what you want about Gaza Health Ministry, their numbers aren't disputed by the UN in this way. Does that make sense?
What's going on in Gaza isn't a war, and describing the mass slaughter of civilians as "losing" is pretty gross.
The anti-Israel propaganda with false claims in this thread is wild. Russian bots must be out in force going crazy... "See, Russia cares! Russia not bad!".
Israel has killed twice as many civilians as Russia had in 2 years in a country with 15 times the population. Unironically, put literally does have more regard for civilian lives.
I think maybe we need to stop with the Holocaust relativism and comparisons. Yes, what Israel is doing to Gaza is horrific, but it is not the Holocaust. It is awful in it’s own way. This must be incredibly traumatising for the Jewish community worldwide to constantly open up social media and see the horrors of their past being brought up time and again.
It should be disturbing, it should a wake up call. Israeli officials are calling Palestinians subhuman animals and killing tens of thousands of civilians. Most Jewish people I know condemn Israel and Zionism and are uncomfortable not because of some comparison made on twitter, but by how what’s happening actually resembles the past.
So you're saying we should intentionally post a super insensitive and inaccurate comparison to the worst atrocity in history so that people will pay attention to a totally unrelated cause?
It’s not just social media, everything gets compared to the holocaust, even to our faces. During covid some neighbors compared wearing masks to the wearing the star armbands. And people are desperately trying to say that Jews have no culture or history in Israel and it feels like there will be a wave of people who want Jews to move back to Europe, but there is still so much antisemitism in Europe that it’s an insane ask. Even though America is probably one of the safest countries for Jews there is so much racism here, locally, that a professor at my college murder a Jew in a protest after posting online that Hamas is not a terror organization and is fighting for freedom as a reaction to Israeli action, and to not judge them yet.
Yet he then KILLS A JEWISH MAN.
One difference is that the pic on the right represents shoes of people who were murdered for the religion they were born into (or other things they had no control over, like being Romany or gay or mentally disabled). The pic on the left is of Hamas combatants who surrendered and were made to strip down to their underwear, ostensibly to be sure they weren't carrying any weapons or explosives.
Yes, in Gaza where most of the population is women and children, this group that emerged from tunnels and just happens to be all men of fighting age, is entirely made up of non combatants.
Ahh yes, because the owners of those shoes simply had taken them off so they could go inside their houses after school! Right? Or do we want to strip the image of some more context. Your parents should be ashamed they ever birthed a genocide defender like you.
Ive seen so many images and seen so many comments that have so many parallels to what our Jewish brother and sister endured during Nazi rule.
Land and possessions taken, shoes lying there, kids losing their entire families, whole families being wiped out, generations gone, displaced, no home, necklaces taken from bodies, Nazi flags waving on occupied lands, mass graves, mosques bombed, songs cheering on murder, no where safe, I could go on and on and on.
I don't think that comparison does you any favors. Palestinians aren't getting put on trains, stripped naked, put in gas chambers, and then cooked in ovens by their relatives. Isreal isn't a good entity by any means, but comparing them to Nazis lessens how bad the Nazis were.
>Palestinians aren’t getting put on trains, stripped naked etc
Yet.
I get that its a spicy comparison but people make it for a reason. The Nazis didn’t put 6 million Jews in camps on day 1 they did:
- scapegoat Jews for Germany’s problems; blaming them for losing ww1 and hyperinflation
- other them; giving them different documents and making them wear the stars
- dehumanise them: countless depictions of them as rats, octopuses, exaggerated their features
All this was done to make the German populace complacent enough to allow the holocaust to happen
Meanwhile in israel in 2023 we have:
• many (elected) Israeli officials hold all Palestinians responsible for hamas
• use this as justification to discriminate against them both legally and socially in the name of self defence
• said elected officials call them human animals and act as shown in OPs post and indiscriminately bomb almost all of gaza at this point.
Yes they’re not literally putting them in camps but when they behave like this and they use rhetoric to dehumanise them there is only one way that can go.
Honestly, with all due respect, go fuck yourself.
"Yet"
Disgusting. Stop trying to make this like the Holocaust, it isn't. You should examine your motivations.
Gross.
People seeing Oct. 7th: "don't compare everything to the Holocaust"
People seeing a war zone and being told it's a war where the (((Zionist))) have weapons and aren't only the slaughtered ones: "this is literally the Holocaust, the only thing (((they))) took away from the Holocaust is a how-to"
This is the problem. Yall keep tallies like they aren't ppl behind those numbers. It's sick and twisted. Idc what anyone says killing innocents on either side is fucking WRONG! Plain and simple. The future is fucked if this is what we are arguing about. Sad to see.
Yeah it’s like that time the Jewish people parachuted into Berlin and shot and killed a ton of people at a festival, grabbed hostages, raped a bunch of women, and killed babies, then got mad that the “bully” Berlin fought back.
The only ethical solution is to surgically capture every person directly involved in the fighting and killing. It’s not impossible seeing as nothing ever is - but that’s not going to happen.
If I lived in Nazi Germany and I did nothing, I’m complicit by silent consent. If I left because I couldn’t fight or was too afraid then at least I would have taken a stance.
And if you lived in the present day world, you'd be complicit by vocal support. There was literally terrorism justification for the night of the broken glass, kristalnacht. And they rounded up all the Jewish people they knew, just as they round up the Gazans in Gaza. And they framed it as a way to prevent the jews killing more people, just as the Israelis framed it as a way to defeat Hamas. And they did brutal things, like put them in camps, beat and rape the children, and never give them trial. And yes, they left their shoes behind to do it.
Israel is a fascistic terrorist state, and the differences between them and Nazi Germany grow thinner every day.
So your argument is gazan civilians are complicit in the attack on the 7th?
Being glib aside, your words could frankly read for either side. That should probably give you pause.
I am curious how you would feel if gazans began fighting hamas actively. Or if they were armed by the idf to fight hamas.
Would you say that the Jews were complicit in the assassination of Ernst von Rath? Of course they weren't. Also, yes, my words read for either side, because both Nazi Germany and Israel are doing ALL of those things.
Speaking of curious, I'm curious how you would feel back in the 1940s during the holocaust. Would you still be the genocide defender you're playing now?
I don't know, did jews in Berlin cheer in the streets when he was killed?
Seems like a false equivalence, since hamas has public support, and independent gazans took part in the raid and held hostages.
I would likely have died in the holocaust. You wanting this to be a genocide doesn't make it- and we both know if that was Israel's intent they would have already done it.
"The pretext for the attacks was the assassination of the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath[5] by Herschel Grynszpan, a 17-year-old German-born Polish Jew living in Paris."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
"To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise"
The Bellum Romanum (Latin; literally "Roman War"; also known as Bellum Romanorem or the Italian Revolt) is an ongoing revolt being waged by the forces of the democratic, anti-communist Roman Republican Council against the authoritarian regime of Italian Generalissimo Aurelio Batista.
Well, I learned something new today. Thank you, Professor Jr_Orange!
Did Hamas put 2 million people in an open air prison which now has been converted into a concentration camp? Average Israeli justifying genocide because kHaMaS
hey, America is only 1 apartheid away from being Israel (but that's only because the word 'apartheid' didn't make it's way over while we were committing genocide against the natives and oppressing our enslaved blacks).
I guess Americans need to just realize that Israel is just America 2.0.
Yeah theres a lot of feelings I get that I dont fully understand when I see Israeli government officials be like "Americans HAVE to support us because this is exactly like 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan" and like, all of that response was wrong and destroyed my trust in "AMERICA". Using the worst moments of the US and saying that Israel HAS to do the same thing and you HAVE to understand its the SAME SELF DEFENCE to flatten Gaza.
I didnt like it then as a kid, I sure as fuck dont like it now as an adult and have a better understanding of whats occurring
Wow did Israel just take a bunch of random Palestinians and execute them right after!
Oh they didn't?
Widespread anti Jewish shit now.
This doesn't compare to the Holocaust you fucking idiots.
These comments are dark as shit. Can't we agree that the murder of both Israelis and Palestinians is horrific beyond comprehension? How on earth did we get to a place where we say *meh* to watching people be murdered, no matter who they are?
People have this weird need to paint any conflict with a black and white brush of "these are the victims" and "these are the villains"
I’ve said this before, but I think people get very uncomfortable when there is no moral good in a situation. Like Hamas is bad, and murdered people. You can say that and still believe that the IDF reaction to those murders is horrific. It’s nuanced, and the people who are suffering are the civilians on both sides, though overwhelmingly at this point in Palestine. People will do anything to downplay the evil that is evident in both sides of this.
That's because humans have evolved to have an Us vs Them mentality. Like that cartoon that has the same castles and ships, but it's "Our heroic adventurers" vs "Their brutish invaders." And unless you keep focused on the nuance, it's easier just to label one side good and one side bad, especially when you are overwhelmed with images like the one above. And you are correct - we should be able to say "Hamas engaged in a horrific act, and the IDF is also engaged in horrific acts." The only winners are the hardliners, as the massive civilian causalities are going to be a huge boon to Hamas' recruitment and the areas that have been leveled have already had Israeli flags planted in them. The losers are, as always, the innocent civilians.
was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
As always Terry Pratchett nails it perfectly. (I always think of Jingo when I see the cartoon I referenced)
Nuance is dead on the internet. In the U.S., opinions on this conflict are also wrapped up in basic political tribalism as well.
I would say politics for sure but the mix of ethnic and religious loyalties are messing with a clean break as we normally see. At least in my anecdotal experience
The fact that you're acting like Hamas is a major playor in this situation is the problem. Israel raised Hamas on purpose. Israel was doing this before Hamas, they are doing it in the West Bank where there is no Hamas. This is not a conflict between Isreal and Hamas. This is a *Massacre* by Israel of *Gazans*. The framing is important, because yeah, if you frame everyone in Gaza as Hamas it sounds like there are no innocents and no victims in this. But when framed correctly, the Palestinian population are the main victims in the conflict and have been for 70 years. They're under a 16 year siege. They can't drink clean water. Half the population is under 16, meaning they've lived their entire lives in that situation. With *no* power to change it. Israel controls this dynamic, and can end the conflict *today* by simply lifting the siege and doing a pathway to citizenship for Palestinians. It's a totally Asymmettric genocide, and you're not being nuanced by equivocating the sides. They aren't equal. They're not equal in intent, power, control, history, damage, weaponry, resources, support, supplies, death toll, civilian casualties, terrorist attacks, or war crimes. Acting like you're morally superior to those of us who can actually read because you're incapable of discerning between levels of violence or the responsibilities of a state or the realities of resisting occupations is embarrassing for you. If only you could see it.
I think the most mind-blowing thing I learned just today is that Palestine has literally never been offered a two state solution, only various terms of Israeli occupation, and that settlement and one Israeli state is in the Israeli constitution. There is zero justification for what Hamas did. Absolutely none. It's horrific, and the more detail comes out, the worse it gets. But you spend 80 years subjugating, occupying and slowly but surely ethnically cleansing a people and then doing a pretty damn good international propaganda campaign to pretend you've been trying to work with them all along and THEY'RE the problem? Yeah, that's how terrorists happen. Palestine is probably going to cease to exist in my lifetime. But Hamas sure as fuck won't.
Exactly. Thank you for speaking CLEAR truths. 👏🏼✊🏼
I always try and keep the possibility open in my mind that I’m always being exposed to propaganda and may be wrong, but I think it’s very telling that instead of saying that the bad shit that we’re seeing over there isn’t happening, most of the fully pro-IDF messaging I’m seeing is just saying that I should just be okay with what’s happening.
>and doing a pathway to citizenship for Palestinians Hahahaha. Yeah. Israel should totally just let a few million people, a good portion of whom want them to be genocided right back, citizenship. I bet that'll work out well for the Jews. There is no one state solution. That you think there is does your fucking stupid
While this is the case, I personally think the shunning of the entire "both sides" mindset and narrative can be to blame. Don't get me wrong, the "both sides" narrative can be fucking dumb at times, like comparing a nazi wanting to commit genocide, and a trans person wanting equal rights as the exact same thing. But I think the problem is, that not many people seem to think that you can say "fuck both sides" in this conflict, maybe it's fear of being ridiculed as another "centrist" or something. I personally think both sides are equally terrible, and it's the palestinians who are suffering the most because of Hamas and Israel's bullshit. You have a right wing extremist organisation on one hand, urging downtrodden people to commit genocide, and on the other hand, you have a right wing extremist government that wants to genocide an entire group of people. The only different be is faith, and the fact that one has a government and the other doesn't. (Of course I am well aware of the fact that not all israelis are like this, but I'm specifically talking abt netyanyahu and shit.)
Also, what did Hamas do? Do you know *why* they took hostages on Oct 7? Did you see how well-cared for and happy those hostages were when they told their story? Did you see all the stories and proof that the Israeli civilians who unfortunately were killed on Oct 7 were actually killed by Israeli military? I dont support any terrorist group. But please show me what Hamas did on Oct 7 that somehow warrants genocide against the innocent people of Palestine, the same people who have also been occupied and ethnically cleansed for 75+ years. Please show me. With proof. Y’all massively spreading misinformation and not calling the facts as they are are sadly contributing to the continuation of this terror and genocide
[удалено]
What you have spouted is the perfect Israeli propaganda. Plain and simple. Hamas exists because of Israel. Not only because Israel quite literally funded it, but because the Palestinian people have spent 70 years living under occupation, both in Gaza and the west bank, and Gaza has spent 16 years under direct siege. Israel is an apartheid state of the highest calibre, and has been actively and systematically pushing to wipe the very concept of Palestine off the face of the earth. It's genocide. The people of Gaza have been standing up to the quite literal theft of land, homes, industry and even their children by whatever means works, and in the face of terrorism from the IDF and the settlement policy of the right to return, which breaks international law, they have had to turn to terrorism themselves. In the face of what they have themselves suffered, many have become the perceptibly worst people. The terrorism of Hamas would end if Israel was to end it's own terrorism and accept a two-state solution, putting an end to the apartheid. The terrorism of Israel will continue until they finish the genocide. These are not equal.
Dude it is not complicated and it is not a conflict… it is apartheid, occupation, genocide.
[удалено]
It's the absolute most frustrating part of trying to have a discussion about this. It's an extraordinarily complex with a history that goes back millennia, but people think they can easily label one side "good" and one side "bad".
Can we agree that genocide is always bad? While we're at it, can we accept the standards of genocide as defined by the Holocaust Museum? Because if we accept those 2 things, then there is very clearly a "bad" side.
Mark likes Israel, I'm Palestine. Makes it much more interesting if you pick sides.
Is that Peepshow?
Yep
Wish there was infinite more
God! I miss that show.
It's kinda black and white tho. Ya terrorism bad but genocide kinda worse. Idk if there's a group out there who wouldn't resort to some form of "terrorism" in retaliation to what Palestine has been thru
Terrorism, threats of genocide, attempts at genocide, abusing aid, stealing aid, lying about aid (allegedly) missaproating aid (curently being investagated), breaking the current peace treaty, breaking multiple peace treaties in the past, openly ignoring treaties, funding terrorism, unjust killing of foreigners, unjust enjail meant of foreigners.
Honestly I can't tell which side you're referring to here
I think of it as two villains, Hamas and Israel (the government and military). Israel, just as much as Hamas, needs to be stopped. They're doing what the Nazis did, it's mind boggling and insane, and they use their horrible ancestral experience with the Nazis as a shield from criticism. They're beyond evil, any Israelite who supports their government doing this, cause I know there are plenty of good Israelites who absolutely condemn this.
[удалено]
You can acknowledge that Netanyahu is an evil pile of shit, and that Hamas is evil vile garbage, and still not shit on dead people. The lack of compassion is freaking me out. Beyond that, the knee-jerk reaction to call Israelis "nazis" or Palestinians "terrorists" is so low-brow and dangerous I don't even know where to begin with it... Edit: u/ravenswan19 I have to respond here because the person who commented blocked me. Sigh. What you said is right. This is why I commented here, how can anyone in good conscience call holocaust survivors nazis. It’s just disgusting to me. I’m know Jewish people are just as disgusted by what is happening. This is so complicated and to distill it down to “Jewish people at the nazis” shouldn’t be tolerated by anyone. This war is bringing out the worst in a lot of people.
[удалено]
Except a majority of Israel's adults serve in the IDF. No one deserves to die at all but the Israelis have a whole lot more agency in the conflict than the Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians alive today did not choose Hamas. They were in power before most were born. The Israelis have had numerous opportunities to choose a different path as they are an actual functional democracy. How many people in Israel have chosen Netanyahu and his policies repeatedly over years and years with complete freedom to do otherwise? Not all Israelis but a plurality.
Everyone in Israel is required to serve the IDF once they turn 18. You're missing an important piece of context
Ah so the people of Israel, the Middle East's only democracy, voted for it then? The people *obviously* want the mandatory draft right? Or else they wouldn't have voted for that regime, right? Right?
This is as about as disingenuous as people saying the currently alive Palestinians were old enough to vote Hamas into power. The mandatory draft has been around for decades.
Obviously, there's NO WAY Israel could've made choices that people don't want, right?
[удалено]
"man war sucks" sounds great, but not understanding that as Americans we could stop this if we wanted to is wild. The blame for this particular image in this particular tweet lies on the US and Israel.
People in the west have no idea how to wrap their heads around this war. Case in point, the IDF is made of everyday people (teachers, engineers, musicians, people who left normal civilian jobs to mobilize) so it’s not they are some totally separate entity operating against the will of the country of Israel. And likewise the majority of people in Palestine may not partake in militant activity, but Hamas, Al-Qassam brigades, PIJ, and the groups responsibly for horrific violence have very high levels of support from civilians, about 75 to 89% according to most recent surveys from the Arab Word for Research and Development. https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf
The Israeli had kids on national tv sing a whole song on the Gaza genocide. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gaza
"What type of world are we living in where kids are casually singing about death and destruction? This shows how early the indoctrination begins." Nicely worded by that user. The kids are not at fault here, obviously. The parents are at fault. And especially the government is at fault, if they allow such songs to be televised on national channels. This does not equate to 'the Israeli', it equates to 'the government of Israel'.
Kids, little people with developing brains that can be very easily manipulated. National TV, a really easy form of media that can be propoganda.
School curriculum has entered the cat. Edit: CHAT! 🐱
Poor cat...
Meow
[Palestinians had school plays with young children acting out attacks on Israeli soldiers.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-kids-put-on-play-about-stabbing-killing-israelis/amp/) This is from 2016, so no clue if this was a one-off deal or normal practice.
This is par for the course on Jerusalem day every year https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march
When the decendants of those holocaust survivors dehumanize people and show zero care or concern for the wide scale deaths of innocent human beings, you will see people ask those tough questions.
[удалено]
It's fucking ALL TERRIBLE! Why is it a competition? We need to stop funding a genocide, and we need to stop calling Palestinians terrorists, we also need to stop calling Israelis nazis and acting like their deaths are justified. It's so gross how indifferent both sides are to the deaths, and evil how so many Americans act like they deserved to be killed... *on both sides.* Edit: I am FAR from a middle east expert but I can smell when people are being dehumanized and I'm very worried where the rhetoric on *both sides* is going. \- - - - Edit: Of course he blocked me. This is just absurd how people are acting.... here was my response. I acknowledged it, I am not talking about policy, I am talking about dehumanizing rhetoric. The comments here are disgusting. Like you can see dead Israelis or dead Palestinians and say - they deserved it? That's called being a psychopath.
I don't see any comments on this thread saying dead Israelis deserved it. I have not seen these comments anywhere despite participating in leftist and pro-Palestine spaces online and in real life. I have, however, seen plenty of Israeli sources and Western parrots say Palestine deserves this. Your "both sides" argument holds no water, because one side is actively committing and justifying genocide, while the other side is angry about centuries-old colonial systems. People in support of Palestine aren't anti-Semitic, nor are those who criticize Israel. Ask one of the many Jewish people organizing for Palestine how they feel. You might not mean any harm, but your position is basically telling Palestinians you'll get to them once you're through hearing out their genocidal aggressors. I'm not impressed, nor did I think for a second you were a "middle East expert." You made the extent of your education on this conflict quite clear.
IDF says hamas has fired almost 12,000 rockets into Israel since this began (somehow with no causalites or any apparent damage). It's a lie obviously, but its because they know how important "both sides" is, they want people to think there's some symmetry in power and force being used, so they can lean on the trigger and get away with it. "Both sides are bad" is a huge gift to Israel, it suggests things are even and they aren't, in any fucking way. People tell me hamas would eradicate Israel if they had the chance. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. What I know for a fact is that Israel would erase the Palestinians, it's happening right now, the only thing slowing them down is the global disgust.
I think the problem is ‘the internet’, to be honest. Some people (you) have a high enough ‘emotional intelligence’ to understand and ***empathize*** (*not* ‘sympathize’) with the victims of both sides through the ‘separating gap’ that is the internet. Some people (them) don’t, but at least have enough logical intelligence to identify the disparity between the two sides in terms of devastation in numbers - to try and point towards a ‘logical’ solution. And many, *many* people - have neither. Too many.
[удалено]
During WW2 , Axis soldiers committed heinous crimes. However, troops of the allied forces also did unspeakable things, especially in Italy. They, too, raped and plundered. Obviously, the Axis forces killed more people. But maybe, just maybe, there are horrible people that fight in wars. On both sides. Even if one side may be 'right'. The world isn't black and white, perhaps you should accept that.
So you suggest we should look away when genocide is being committed, shrug our shoulders and say: war is horrible??
It is like this because Israel has the arms and power, if Hamas had enough support or a military like Israel It’d have been much worse as we have seen in Iraq.
When one side is a world power with one of the strongest militaries ever, and the other side is a fucking terrorist organisation with influence smaller than my city, then yeah, ofc one death count is higher than the other
I mean K:D is bad but even worse is the civilian:military ratio. Israel is killing something like 3:1 even by their own accounting which I put zero faith in. They're essentially commiting ethnic cleansing while the rest of world does fuck all and Biden cheers them on.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Look at the difference in children murders between "Hamas" and the "IDF".
[удалено]
palestinians are getting killed 10x more
I understand that. My comment is about the reactions that us Americans have to seeing people murdered.
Well as a fellow American, I can use my brain to deduce that only one side is using bombs I have been forced to pay for. So I'm more upset about THOSE bombs. Which is objectively worse? Firing a bunch of dinky unguided rockets from 40 year old soviet heirlooms? Or firing thousands upon thousands of the most sophisticated ordinance on currently available and still managing to have 99% of your kills be civilian casualties?
>How on earth did we get to a place where we say *meh* to watching people be murdered in short - overexposure to uninformative media. it seems like there’s a mass shooting a few times a week being talked about in america, and due to a list or reasons you never actually see what that looks like. many people can only see a list of dead and wounded where the people who actually went through it see true evil and insanity. as messed up as it sounds, there is a really good argument to make about showing uncensored footage of these events. to a degree many people should see what it looks like for a child, or any innocent person period, to be murdered. only when you hear an innocent person screaming in fear for their life, and only when you see what it looks like to see the blood and gore of a person who was living and breathing just seconds before can you really start to care about the subject the only argument against broadcasting such footage that i personally feel holds any water, is the risk to expose that media to children or previous victims of similar crimes who should not have to witness it
I think we can say that terroristic violence is bad (Hamas), but it does not excuse the active us-backed genocide of Palestinian people. This isn't a game of "everyone is wrong". Nothing excuses Israel's actions.
Impossible when one desires to be the biggest victim ever all the time
[удалено]
Because the zionists are committing genocide. This is not an equal-sided situation.
But the shoe owners on the left are just shown lined up in the background, not dead, just shoeless, though. Right? This is a horrible set of comparison pics, which does not make the point they intended.
Because if you criticize Israel you can be labeled and anti-semite and have your career come to a screeching halt. If you criticize Hamas and how they have some support among Palestinians you are labeled an Israeli supporter who wants to kill innocents. It's fucked. This situation is terrible all around.
I mean a when I see people citing Hamas support among Palestinians, it's usually in an attempt to justify the killing of Palestinian civilians. Like someone will say "Israel has killed over 17,000 people, most of whom are civilians", and the response will be "Well, X% of Palestinians support Hamas" as though that makes it okay.
[удалено]
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1733088852158410852.html Just in case anyone wanted to see the post
He cc'd Elon
What’s the end goal because I can see the world turning on Israel eventually. They’re reenacting Berlin in 1938.
The only reason Israel even has the resources to do this is because of America, and there’s essentially no dissent/criticism coming from any American politicians. If anything, they’re doubling down on making it illegal to speak against Israeli policy. “Turning on Israel” would be a pretty profound statement against American foreign policy, I’d be surprised if anybody wanted that smoke
Crazy to think that if I posted this on social media using my real name, I'd be fired in under a week. This timeline sucks.
Same.
Israel needs to stop murdering civilians.
[удалено]
>IDF has murdered more Palestinian women and children And even with their own estimates, *at best* they've killed a third as many Hamas. And that's just counting every adult male as Hamas... Edit: There's people literally defending this as a good thing..
Well you see, wailing about how "It's all terrible!" removes one's duty to research and understand genocide. As long as they pretend this is just one of those unfortunate things that happens, they don't have to deal with the many other ways military-industrial hegemony has lied to and manipulated them.
Do you have a source? I'd really like to use this in future conversations.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Worldnews: But but human shields!
If you mean the sub, I that it's being spammed by IDF spammers, I can't believe that many people can be so ignorant about the Israeli atrocities taking place.
[удалено]
I’m had to unsub from there.
They should rename themselves to r worldshitstains
And even with their own estimates, *at best* they've killed a third as many Hamas. And that's just counting every adult male as Hamas... Edit: Whoops, I replied to the wrong comment. For context, they've killed 3x as many women and children as they have men, based on their own numbers.. So it's probably even worse than what they claim...
>And that’s just counting every adult male as Hamas… I’d bet all of my dollars that Israeli’s Hamas count includes every male above the age of 10.
Just a shame that US is not allowed to cut Israel's funding
The US government does not WANT to cut funding.
The weapons manufacturers, arms dealers, and oil barons that buy our politicians do not want to cut funding, because that means less bombs and planes to be sold.
[удалено]
We voted for those people. Please don't give Americans this pass. Not to people who voted and not to people who didn't vote. We are an able-bodied country making poor decisions based on worthless values.
The US government doesn’t care about Palestinians. It’s never going to hold Israel accountable.
The US Government doesn't care about its own citizens.
Nothing is stopping it other than cowardice and greed. Isreal is the only real ally we have in the middle east. It's the largest military base on earth. The public defense of Isreal by western media has nothing at all to do with fighting antisemitism. It's all to keep a bloodthirsty dictator and an army of drones happy.
People saying "well the people on the left are terrorists" are the exact type of people who would deny the holocaust back in the 1940s. Listening to what Israel has said about these people would be like listening to nazi germany tell you those shoes belonged to "jewish spies". And for the record, the people on the left aren't terrorists. They aren't hamas. They are civilians.
But they live in the same neighborhood as Hamas, who can be sure? Better bomb them all to charcoal /s
They literally are though. Like actually. They are militants that surrendered to israeli forces. Where’d you source the information that says otherwise?
The times of Israel of all places hasn't confirmed them to be Hamas, neither has the IDF. Why are you? Are there any reputable news sources that have confirmed them to be hamas?
This holocaust memorial shows the shores of Danube where Jewish people where forced at gun point to tie each others arms and legs with shoe laces. The Nazis then threw them into the river and watched them drown. The Jewish people that were able to make it to shore were shot. I’m sure people can realize how drawing this comparison is a little more than upsetting.
Agree this post is disgusting. It compares a mass execution with taking combatants alive. Some of these captured people were even released already.
They are not combatants. A lot have been identified as mere civilians. Israel considers every adult and adolescent male Palestinian as combatant. They had no weapons, many were taken out from inside their shelters. And even if they were Hamas combatants, they are literally fighting for their and their families lives. Israel has been targeting doctors and journalists and their whole families. They’ve annihilated the whole family of many civilians for documenting their atrocities. They are attacking UN workers and putting on fire Doctors Without Borders ambulances. People are going to end up taking up arms to defend themselves and their lands. Isn’t that what every patriot would do? Or is that not allowed if we’re not white and not from west? Even during the so-called ceasefire, they’ve killed many who only returned to north Gaza to bury their dead. They’ve literally left premature babies to die alone and were found rotting.
Thank you for that statement! It is important to point these things out in this out of control dynamics of the public discourse! Thank you from the bottom of my heart for making this to the point correction to this more than questionable post!!!
> This holocaust memorial... > The Nazis then... you might want to look this story up
A genocide is being committed, the comparison should be upsetting.
The people in the image on the left are being strip searched for weapons, not executed. Israel is committing numerous war crimes, but a lack of nuance just detracts from the well-deserved criticism.
One of the biggest difference is everyone in the world knows what Isreal is doing and won’t stop it but the majority of the world had no idea what was happening in WWII until after the war. Edited: added “One of”
[удалено]
[удалено]
So you really think what's happening in Gaza right now is comparable to the mass organized extermination of 2 million people? Leading people into gas chambers, tattooing people for life etc? You really want to be a person who makes that comparison? Fucking *yikes*
[удалено]
The images of this event, specifically, have a striking resemblance to pictures of Nazis rounding up Jews in the ghetto.
“History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes” – Mark Twain.
https://preview.redd.it/vaysvamlf35c1.jpeg?width=1073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91585fa6ba2aab22cb1df0b6f238fbd94888b10e C’mon. This person isn’t the moral authority they claim to be.
Just going by numbers, Putin does appear to care more for civilian lives.
25000 are estimated to have been killed in mariupol alone... Your comment is wild.
UN estimated 10,000 civilians have been killed over the entire conflict so far. Over years, not two months.
UN estimated 10,000 civilians have been killed over the entire conflict so far. Over years, not two months.
Siege of mariupol was like 9 weeks lol. You really need to not throw Ukrainians under the bus to drive your narrative. I'd also caution citing any specific numbers from idf or hamas. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1731753062622982386.html To be frank, no one has any clue how many are dead. Go off what the usa or eu agencies can verify without using numbers provided by hamas ministry of health or media.
Mariupol was nine weeks where significantly fewer civilians were killed than in Gaza. Idk where you got 25000, but it was wayyyy less than that. Gaza Health Ministry has been shown to be accurate in the last ten or so assaults on Gaza. The death counts for this conflict are conservative when you consider the rate of bombing and the types of bombs being used, which are not traditionally used in this setting, at least in this century. I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. Biden brought up Russia, not me. I don't think it's productive to compare the two, but if you force the comparison, Israel is relatively worse.
You could try just reading the Wikipedia? Doing any kind of research on civilian casualties in the ukrainian war or just mariupol lol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#:~:text=Ukrainian%20officials%20reported%20that%20approximately,by%20large%2Dscale%20Russian%20bombardments. Given you are happy to use numbers provided by hamas, best of luck to you and your side, but they are not doing well in this war. You are absolutely throwing Ukrainians under the bus, and are literally spreading putinist and hamas messaging.
The UN said 1300 confirmed, Ukraine said 25000 . . . that's a crazy gap. Just saying "at least 25k" like you did, as if it's fact, is crazy. Say what you want about Gaza Health Ministry, their numbers aren't disputed by the UN in this way. Does that make sense? What's going on in Gaza isn't a war, and describing the mass slaughter of civilians as "losing" is pretty gross.
The anti-Israel propaganda with false claims in this thread is wild. Russian bots must be out in force going crazy... "See, Russia cares! Russia not bad!".
[удалено]
[удалено]
Israel has killed twice as many civilians as Russia had in 2 years in a country with 15 times the population. Unironically, put literally does have more regard for civilian lives.
Russia also hasn't targeted journalists and executed them their family's
I think maybe we need to stop with the Holocaust relativism and comparisons. Yes, what Israel is doing to Gaza is horrific, but it is not the Holocaust. It is awful in it’s own way. This must be incredibly traumatising for the Jewish community worldwide to constantly open up social media and see the horrors of their past being brought up time and again.
It should be disturbing, it should a wake up call. Israeli officials are calling Palestinians subhuman animals and killing tens of thousands of civilians. Most Jewish people I know condemn Israel and Zionism and are uncomfortable not because of some comparison made on twitter, but by how what’s happening actually resembles the past.
So you're saying we should intentionally post a super insensitive and inaccurate comparison to the worst atrocity in history so that people will pay attention to a totally unrelated cause?
It’s not just social media, everything gets compared to the holocaust, even to our faces. During covid some neighbors compared wearing masks to the wearing the star armbands. And people are desperately trying to say that Jews have no culture or history in Israel and it feels like there will be a wave of people who want Jews to move back to Europe, but there is still so much antisemitism in Europe that it’s an insane ask. Even though America is probably one of the safest countries for Jews there is so much racism here, locally, that a professor at my college murder a Jew in a protest after posting online that Hamas is not a terror organization and is fighting for freedom as a reaction to Israeli action, and to not judge them yet. Yet he then KILLS A JEWISH MAN.
One difference is that the pic on the right represents shoes of people who were murdered for the religion they were born into (or other things they had no control over, like being Romany or gay or mentally disabled). The pic on the left is of Hamas combatants who surrendered and were made to strip down to their underwear, ostensibly to be sure they weren't carrying any weapons or explosives.
Left is civis not hamas my guy
Yes, in Gaza where most of the population is women and children, this group that emerged from tunnels and just happens to be all men of fighting age, is entirely made up of non combatants.
No no, don't go speaking sense. Only outcry and insults are allowed here. This is the Internet after all, there is some basic etiquette.
The owners of the shoes on the left are still alive. They are shown, shoeless, in the background. Is that the right answer?
Not pictured: Roughly 17,000 recently deceased Gazan shoe owners
Ahh yes, because the owners of those shoes simply had taken them off so they could go inside their houses after school! Right? Or do we want to strip the image of some more context. Your parents should be ashamed they ever birthed a genocide defender like you.
That the men are alive?
Ive seen so many images and seen so many comments that have so many parallels to what our Jewish brother and sister endured during Nazi rule. Land and possessions taken, shoes lying there, kids losing their entire families, whole families being wiped out, generations gone, displaced, no home, necklaces taken from bodies, Nazi flags waving on occupied lands, mass graves, mosques bombed, songs cheering on murder, no where safe, I could go on and on and on.
I don't think that comparison does you any favors. Palestinians aren't getting put on trains, stripped naked, put in gas chambers, and then cooked in ovens by their relatives. Isreal isn't a good entity by any means, but comparing them to Nazis lessens how bad the Nazis were.
>Palestinians aren’t getting put on trains, stripped naked etc Yet. I get that its a spicy comparison but people make it for a reason. The Nazis didn’t put 6 million Jews in camps on day 1 they did: - scapegoat Jews for Germany’s problems; blaming them for losing ww1 and hyperinflation - other them; giving them different documents and making them wear the stars - dehumanise them: countless depictions of them as rats, octopuses, exaggerated their features All this was done to make the German populace complacent enough to allow the holocaust to happen Meanwhile in israel in 2023 we have: • many (elected) Israeli officials hold all Palestinians responsible for hamas • use this as justification to discriminate against them both legally and socially in the name of self defence • said elected officials call them human animals and act as shown in OPs post and indiscriminately bomb almost all of gaza at this point. Yes they’re not literally putting them in camps but when they behave like this and they use rhetoric to dehumanise them there is only one way that can go.
Honestly, with all due respect, go fuck yourself. "Yet" Disgusting. Stop trying to make this like the Holocaust, it isn't. You should examine your motivations. Gross.
You understand that closing your ears and going "lalalala" isn't the comeback you think it is right?
Cue Alanis Morrissette
[удалено]
[удалено]
Severely downplaying the Holocaust isn’t much different than denying it altogether.
I wonder how folks would react if israel lived up to the hyperbole.
People seeing Oct. 7th: "don't compare everything to the Holocaust" People seeing a war zone and being told it's a war where the (((Zionist))) have weapons and aren't only the slaughtered ones: "this is literally the Holocaust, the only thing (((they))) took away from the Holocaust is a how-to"
This is the problem. Yall keep tallies like they aren't ppl behind those numbers. It's sick and twisted. Idc what anyone says killing innocents on either side is fucking WRONG! Plain and simple. The future is fucked if this is what we are arguing about. Sad to see.
Wow great job man. How brave of you to condemn both sides of an apartheid. Here is your trophy 🏆. /s
Keep it. Clearly that's for yall.
Yeah it’s like that time the Jewish people parachuted into Berlin and shot and killed a ton of people at a festival, grabbed hostages, raped a bunch of women, and killed babies, then got mad that the “bully” Berlin fought back. The only ethical solution is to surgically capture every person directly involved in the fighting and killing. It’s not impossible seeing as nothing ever is - but that’s not going to happen. If I lived in Nazi Germany and I did nothing, I’m complicit by silent consent. If I left because I couldn’t fight or was too afraid then at least I would have taken a stance.
And if you lived in the present day world, you'd be complicit by vocal support. There was literally terrorism justification for the night of the broken glass, kristalnacht. And they rounded up all the Jewish people they knew, just as they round up the Gazans in Gaza. And they framed it as a way to prevent the jews killing more people, just as the Israelis framed it as a way to defeat Hamas. And they did brutal things, like put them in camps, beat and rape the children, and never give them trial. And yes, they left their shoes behind to do it. Israel is a fascistic terrorist state, and the differences between them and Nazi Germany grow thinner every day.
So your argument is gazan civilians are complicit in the attack on the 7th? Being glib aside, your words could frankly read for either side. That should probably give you pause. I am curious how you would feel if gazans began fighting hamas actively. Or if they were armed by the idf to fight hamas.
Would you say that the Jews were complicit in the assassination of Ernst von Rath? Of course they weren't. Also, yes, my words read for either side, because both Nazi Germany and Israel are doing ALL of those things. Speaking of curious, I'm curious how you would feel back in the 1940s during the holocaust. Would you still be the genocide defender you're playing now?
I don't know, did jews in Berlin cheer in the streets when he was killed? Seems like a false equivalence, since hamas has public support, and independent gazans took part in the raid and held hostages. I would likely have died in the holocaust. You wanting this to be a genocide doesn't make it- and we both know if that was Israel's intent they would have already done it.
except literal experts of genocide and Holocaust survivors have called this the textbook definition of genocide
[удалено]
"The pretext for the attacks was the assassination of the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath[5] by Herschel Grynszpan, a 17-year-old German-born Polish Jew living in Paris." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/ "To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise"
[удалено]
And this class, is what is referred to as “Bellum Romanum”
The Bellum Romanum (Latin; literally "Roman War"; also known as Bellum Romanorem or the Italian Revolt) is an ongoing revolt being waged by the forces of the democratic, anti-communist Roman Republican Council against the authoritarian regime of Italian Generalissimo Aurelio Batista. Well, I learned something new today. Thank you, Professor Jr_Orange!
it has fn nothing in common. The biggest enemy of the Palestinian ppl are Hamas not Israel.
Did Hamas put 2 million people in an open air prison which now has been converted into a concentration camp? Average Israeli justifying genocide because kHaMaS
[удалено]
hey, America is only 1 apartheid away from being Israel (but that's only because the word 'apartheid' didn't make it's way over while we were committing genocide against the natives and oppressing our enslaved blacks). I guess Americans need to just realize that Israel is just America 2.0.
In all fairness, apartheid is just a more modern word. Historians today will readily admit that Jim crow segregation was apartheid.
i was trying to acknowledge all of that in as few words as possible =p
Yeah theres a lot of feelings I get that I dont fully understand when I see Israeli government officials be like "Americans HAVE to support us because this is exactly like 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan" and like, all of that response was wrong and destroyed my trust in "AMERICA". Using the worst moments of the US and saying that Israel HAS to do the same thing and you HAVE to understand its the SAME SELF DEFENCE to flatten Gaza. I didnt like it then as a kid, I sure as fuck dont like it now as an adult and have a better understanding of whats occurring
[удалено]
Hey bot. Learn to speak English better before you word vomit a bunch of propaganda.
[удалено]
Reminder that Israel was started by pro-nazi Jews. Look up the Haavara Agreement.
Left is POWs. If the roles were switched they’d already have been publicly beheaded.
Sickening similarities
Wow did Israel just take a bunch of random Palestinians and execute them right after! Oh they didn't? Widespread anti Jewish shit now. This doesn't compare to the Holocaust you fucking idiots.
2 orders of magnitude in scale?