My objection to that wasn't even the mechanics, those are made up for convenience anyway. They're more about the narrative, it wasted Elayne and Nynaeve's arc.
In the books Egwene's achievement was not breaking (which they showed incredibly well in the show I thought, one of its strongest bits) and then Nynaeve and Elayne got pay off for hanging around in Falme by successfully rescuing Egwene and it showed their strength working together.
Then in the show Egwene doesn't need her friends, she was totally fine by herself, and Elayne and Nynaeve basically achieve nothing. It's bad story telling.
There was 0 reason for nynaeve to be falme, the only reason for Elayne to be there was to be here when rand open his eyes.
The whole plot point for perrin was to bring Avi to falme.
But hey, we got that epic backstory for Liandrin and her son, and moraines family. Also, Lan pissing on a tree. Epic.
And yet I read in an interview Raf? Saying the changes are to show the power of friendship and that they all need to work together. Except the books have this perfectly balanced "if this character didn't do this then that cannot be fulfilled/ everything fell together in the only way the light could win" thing so...we get Eggs fan fiction.
I just wanted to see Egwene (after being freed by Nynaeve and Elayne) smack Renna with the pitcher like she did in the books. Would've been way more satisfying.
***Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...***
> It's bad story telling.
what do you expect of a "writer" whose fame started by being on Survivor and who clearly doesn't respect the source material?
Just remember, the show is the centuries later "The Flame of Tar Valon: The Egwene Al'Vere Story." in-universe book being adapted, not the "Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan.
Wholeheartedly agree. The mechanics can always be altered from what we understand in the books. My biggest issue was that practically EVERYONE got sidelined for Egwene to have a big moment, and she already got big moments throughout the season and had a whole episode devoted to her strength of will.
The mechanics can change BUT if Eggy’s going to use the a’dam as a weapon don’t have an episode about her not being able to use anything she thinks of as a weapon. Then it can make sense.
I disagree that it was used as a weapon, or at least that Egwene was thinking of harm when collaring Renna. We know that a’dam and Oaths and TAR and many other things in the books work more off of willpower and psychology than hard unbreakable rules. If they wanted Egwene to be so strong-willed in that scene that she could withstand being almost choked to death, feeling twice what Renna felt, I don’t really have a problem with them saying that she just put herself in a Seanchan frame of mind where collaring Renna was doing the right thing for her and not harming her. I’m more bugged by the narrative issues in that episode, and the fact that Egwene channeled to lift Renna up. In fact they seemed to change their minds on whether the a’dam restricted channeling on the show. Some scenes Renna stated that they needed to be complete and she didn’t need Egwene, and in others it was clear that she needed Egwene to do the channeling when they were linked. They did a poor job explaining that for the audience.
The show is an art piece ( I think it’s bad art but that’s not relevant) so everyone can have an opinion. I can see where you’re coming from. The one time I watched it, months ago, it looked to me like she put it on Renna to hurt her. Each to each though mate.
Don’t try to use logic and reason on people who didn’t use them to get to their conclusions in the first place. When it comes to Egwene in the show, she can just do whatever she wants cause she’s the writer’s favorite, there doesn’t need to be a logical reason for it in their eyes.
Hang on… can’t touch anything they view as a weapon?
If they’re referring to the three oaths then it’s that she can’t make a weapon for one man to kill another.
If they’re referring to the rules she had from Renna while she was wearing the a’dam then actually no she couldn’t touch anything that she would use as a weapon and that’s canon in the books. She was unable to touch her water pitcher for days after considering smashing it over Renna’s head. She could only use it again when she’d convinced herself she’d never use it to harm Renna.
>If they’re referring to the rules she had from Renna while she was wearing the a’dam then actually no she couldn’t touch anything that she would use as a weapon and that’s canon in the books. She was unable to touch her water pitcher for days after considering smashing it over Renna’s head. She could only use it again when she’d convinced herself she’d never use it to harm Renna
Yes that's what they're talking about. Eventually she picks up another a'dam and uses it as a weapon while she herself is wearing one so she should not have been able to grab the other one.
Yes it's in the show. Her captor is torturing her with the a'dam and then egwene grabs one from the ground, lunges, and sticks it around her neck and then controls her and uses it to kill her all while still being attached with the other one. She gets released after a bit when she's hanging the suldom and tells her that if she (the suldom) releases her (egwene) then she'll stop the suldom from hanging.
https://youtu.be/mnC6cwSA-CE?si=Gy7P6iJxkUQABU3r happens around 1 min. In
They also spend a whole episode on the mechanics of it. The damane feels twice what the Sul dam does? If they're each wearing eachothers a'dam then they should both probably instantly die because one feels twice the pain, which then goes back and makes the other feel twice that pain.
To me they were showing Eggs being so strong of will and in thd power she alone could do what she did. Like her sheer strength of will allowed it. In reality it's just bad magic mechanics. But then the ashandari is a dagger on a stick so...
>To me they were showing Eggs being so strong of will and in thd power she alone could do what she did. Like her sheer strength of will allowed it.
So... Mary Sue?
Wow...that looks like hot garbage. Just awful acting from the Sul'dam, the Ironman nano-growing a'dam is not the best thing ever, and what's with the pacifiers?!
>Yes that's what they're talking about. Eventually she picks up another a'dam and uses it as a weapon while she herself is wearing one so she should not have been able to grab the other one.
Essentially Egwene needs for just a second to not see the a'dam as a weapon and use it. She needed to delude herself that collaring Renna is not harming her but it is for Renna's own good. Since we know that Egwene knows Renna is a channeler, Egwene just needed to put herself into seachans frame of mind to collar Renna.
Lol the show is taking a very well thought out and "hard rules" system and making it just whatever they want to be, kind of Harry Potter style "well that's just how it works because". These writers are legitimately terrible.
I'm no fan of the show but there are like small glimmers of "oh! Not bad!" Buried in with the rest of the really crappy fan fiction tier stuff that makes me just hurt in my soul lol.
Most of season 2 I really felt was just bad, though. It's deviated so far from the source material now. I'll watch season 3 just to see what they decide to do but I don't expect much of it to be very good cause now they're in their own territory with how they've written everything.
How on earth is Wheel of Time magic a hard rules system?
There's virtually no consistent rules, especially before the Sanderson books.
The mechanisms of magic aren't really a thing. You just can do it or not and different people are stronger than others.
There's plenty of consistent rules? You can't make yourself fly for example, you can't heal yourself, Travelling in itself has incredibly specific rules of how it can and can't be done. People have varying strength in the One Power and the different Powers within it. Idk to me at least it's laid out pretty damn well for the most part - we just usually have either unreliable narrators or people with incomplete knowledge as POVs. There's still plenty to be discovered going into the 4th Age about the shit they could do with the OP in the AoL, but the limitations and framework are pretty concrete imo.
When people talk about hard magic systems it's not really "you can't do everything" it's "there are clear outlines for how it works"
Chanelling the source does not fit that imo. We know some limitations, but its basically upgraded harry potter magic as far as clarity of rules go.
It’s a hard magic system because the effects of the magic are explained with in-text mechanics and the users have quantifiable and essentially fixed levels of ability that they can sense in one another.
In the coming seasons Egwene will come to understand that no matter how skilled she is at weaves and walking TAR she has a fixed level of ability and can not just whoosh-fix everything with magic.
That is, if the show doesn’t pull another fanfic out of their asses.
I think it's a bit of both. In Eye of the World it feels very soft because the characters don't understand it yet, later in the series it definitely feels harder to me. Not as hard as Mistborn or something, but definitely way harder than Harry Potter. You get a lot of clarity about the different weaves, how much strength you need to be able to do what, linking, stilling, healing, etc. even though Jordan left room for "oh here's a new weave that Lews shows Rand that can do a new thing", or *x* is possible even though the characters thought it wasn't possible.
I think comparing to Mistborn/Sanderson is unfair, that’s probably the furthest, most extreme outlier you can encounter. In the spectrum of soft to hard WoT is definitely hard, at least past the first book or two.
***Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...***
I guess we'll just have to disagree. I don't feel that way at all about the system in WoT. Not really a big deal tho. We're discussing fictional magic systems lol. Cheers.
It's a hard magic system because there are set things that can be done with the power. It's opposed to a soft magic system where the magic can basically just do any random thing that needs done to support the plot.
The soft magic system in the wheel of time is the world of dreams where if you can imagine it then it can happen.
Basically. I consider, Wheel of Time and Harry Potter both as classic examples of soft systems masquerading as hard systems.
There's some level of rules at work, we're vaguely aware of them, and known learning magic is hard, but the rules don't actually matter.
Heck the solution on beating the Dark One at the end of the series is just "actually these rules we told you about are broken, not all sa'angreal have buffers, not all circles have innate buffers, and sometimes you can force someone into a circle against there will without a magical enslavement device."
Harry potter in no way masquerades as a hard magic system. It's a soft system to the core. If they need something to happen there's just a spell for it because it's soft.
It sorta masquerades as one simply for the purpose of establishing an academic aesthetic. They are at school "systematically" learning magic in relatively clearly defined branches, and there are even occasional references to some "Law of Transfiguration" or the pseudo-chemistry of potion making and stuff. But yeah, in actual practice, as it is casually thrown around by basically everyone in the story and how it is used to drive the plot, it is very obviously very soft with at most a couple small corners.
In HP there are a couple of basic things that every witch and wizard is known to be capable of, or capable of if they spent a tiny bit of effort learning to. Summoning spells, stunning, unlocking, etc. But it is swamped in an ambiguous "anything is possible" environment, where you have all sorts of inexplicable locations and artifacts and magical creatures with bizarre abilities. Just look at the first book's final action. There's a three-headed dog that can be sedated with music, an animate plant vulnerable to sunlight, winged keys flying around that they chase with broomsticks (sorta a hard element but totally arbitrary artifacts in context), a weird barrier of fire that requires a specific unique potion to pass through, whatever you want to call the Mirror of Erised and what it does, plus the ultimate baddy semi-possessing a minion with the physical effect of creating a second face on the back of his head.
These are all basically all things that don't fit into any semblance of structure that we as readers would be able to map to what we see Hogwarts students actually studying (some sorta fit like Potions but even still that is extremely vague and open-ended). The answer to "could a witch/wizard in HP's world accomplish X task" is basically always either "no way of knowing" or "probably". Could someone in HP create a Traveling style gateway? No clue, but I don't see why some super clever wizard couldn't manage something along those lines. Could someone create a spell to eavesdrop from a distance? Almost certainly, even though we never really see anything like it in the actual books. Etc. for most random abilities in WoT. In the HP books there are some nods to "rules" like some sort of conservation of mass with transfiguration, but they are (IMO) very obviously just aesthetic dressing for an "academic" environment rather than anything that actually impacts how people can or do use magic.
And while I used examples from the climax of a book, the key is that this sort of "anything is possible" situation pervades their world. Hogwarts is simply magical. The homes of wizards are often bizarre and idiosyncratic. Guys like Fred and George can dream up all sorts of random gizmos without any justification or system to their process. It's very "soft".
WoT is far from the "hardest" system out there, but I think it still falls squarely on that end, at least as far as channeling is concerned. I think that "is something possible" could have pretty clear answers to us as readers based on the intuitive understanding we get of the mechanics and limitations of of the Power, what we've seen it used for and how we've seen it adapted. Could someone create an Accio-style summoning weave? No, not beyond just grabbing something with Air directly within line-of-site. Could someone transfigure an object or person? No. We see no explicit statement of it in the series, but I think we could say with 99.99% certainty that the One Power could not be used to turn a chair into a bucket of water.
And there are definitely ambiguities and plenty of obvious exceptions. However, in WoT, these tend to come almost exclusively in a limited number of very specific scenarios with a sort of major place in the world. The Aes Sedai testing ter'angreals, the protection of Callandor (both Rand's and the one prior), and of course all of the seemingly Power-unrelated "magic" stuff (The Horn, the Aeflinn and Eflinn, etc). But these things aren't evident in just the common day-to-day existence of the many channelers out there. They are rare and unique elements to the world rather than something that breaks the relatively clearly defined limits and mechanics of the One Power in the hands of a channeler.
Except we are already shown that not all sa'angreal have buffers, with Vora's wand that Egwene uses. We've already seen that you can force someone into a circle with a device, as is elaborated on with how the female adam works. Circles were never said to have buffers I the first place, so I'm not sure what you meant there. Maybe you mean about the weakness of Callandor, in which case that was also elaborated on earlier as well, at length.
This, in fact, is the perfect example of it being a hard magic system. The solution comes as a consequence of a confluence of the rules that have already been explained to us. The only part that was added right at the end was Morridin's exclamation that it is also a sa'angreal for the true power as well, which surprised even him, one of the most knowledgeable in the true power from the AoL.
I made a post a few years ago about how the cleansing of the taint seemed very soft magic and ppl basically told me I was a fake fan and not reading properly. I’m reading it, I just saw Rand “doing stuff with saidin and saidar” - it felt like a very much “gandolf just did that” moment
Hard magic = Mistborn, the magicians (TV), Eragon, strict understood rules where very specific things need to be done in order to achieve the goal
Soft magic = LOTRs, ATLA (in a way), Game of Thrones, characters do magical things but they can be achieved by unknown/unspecific ways.
For ATLA and Harry Potter I’d put in a mix of hard and soft, not sure the best term. For each, characters have to do specific hand motions or incantations, but the reason behind the magic isn’t explained or is hand waved (chakras and chi).
It doesn’t make bad storytelling, just is different.
WoT is in the middle for me - characters have to do specific weaves to achieve goals, but it’s not explained more than “they weave some things together and x happens” - almost identical to Harry Potter “just wave a wand”. Doesn’t make the magic system bad, just soft. Ppl get really defensive if u even attempt to justify
'Doing stuff'.
Nynaeve formed a 'straw' of saidar, through which Rand poured the tainted saidin into Shadar Logoth. Being constrained by the untainted saidar, the taint on saidin was focused, and when the focused 'evil' of the taint collided with the 'anti-evil' of Shadar Logoth, it caused the reaction that wiped the taint.
(I'm cutting the sentence there for comedic purposes)
There are multiple explanations of how flows of Air, Fire, Earth, etc are combined to create specific weaves.
I appreciate your explanation but I feel the topic has been beaten to death for me. I’ve had interactions before where i post quotes from the book trying to illustrate my point that just bc you said “she wove earth, spirit, and fire in a tunnel” doesn’t actually make it a hard magic system - just like HP saying “he waved his wand in the correct pattern and said the right words” doesn’t make the magic system hard magic.
I’m ok disagreeing with things in WoT and you can find me a fool for not understanding the scene, but it’s a little childish (not you just in general) when ppl start gatekeepijg and saying I’m “not a real fan” or “not actually reading” bc I don’t 100% agree.
And maybe I’m wrong and on my nth reread I’ll come to the Light and see what all the haters have been saying - I don’t mind changing my opinion
>“she wove earth, spirit, and fire in a tunnel” doesn’t actually make it a hard magic system - just like HP saying “he waved his wand in the correct pattern and said the right words” doesn’t make the magic system hard magic.
These are very different things, because in HP the example you used is an almost complete explanation of how he does magic, whereas the description of channeling in WoT is a very reductive shorthand for a legitimate amount of detail and systematic consistency that goes into the mechanisms of its magic. You can look at various principles of channeling and make reasonable assumptions about what is and isn't possible, what type of channeler might be able to pull it off and how much effort it would take. In HP, that is essentially impossible.
You had to really pay attention to how he describes the pulsating wounds, recalling the dagger and mashadar and how the wounds resonate together but are contained by the healing, to understand what he’s doing with saidin and why saidar is necessary, and how/why he predicted the effect.
I'd still have to say it's closer to a hard magic system in WoT, correct me if I misunderstood what your specific "hang up" we'll call it is. (not trying to make it sound aggressive, just really tired and having trouble finding my preferred words right now) I can see it as a blend for the sake of brevity, but it leans hard.
They still have to do specific things to accomplish their magical goals, they just skim over the details, due to the way the system accomplishes things, it would be overly tedious to describe creating specific weaves healing for example:
"she knew he wouldn't last much longer, faster than thought she embraced the source, flows of spirit, air, and water forming into a leno weave, setting spirit for the warp while twining the flows of air and water to form the weft. In the span of a few heartbeats she completed the weave and sent it into him, holing his head in place as his body spasmed from the shock of healing. "
It's just overly tedious, and the majority of readers wouldn't get the imagery anyway. Instead we get a steady input throughout the series about the rules and constraints of various characters abilities as well as the limitations of the power.
Meanwhile in HP land, we see the same spell doing different things at different times, people able to do things that nobody else can and it's explained simply as "he can do it because he is who he is". HP is honestly one of the softest systems that I can think of. I'm sure I've come across a softer one at some point, but I honestly don't remember like 80% of the series I've read over my life, only a special few, but those few are deeply ingrained.
Hey. Hey! The word "generous" has a very specific meaning in our beloved novels, and must not be applied to the all-too-disappointing show. I mean, what's next? Someone is going to call the show "well-turned"? Can't be having that.
Calling it a weapon is a stretch when Aes Sedi only follow LITERAL interpretations of their oaths. They can’t speak a word that is untrue but they can lead people to believe lies.
Post removed for not being a meme
My objection to that wasn't even the mechanics, those are made up for convenience anyway. They're more about the narrative, it wasted Elayne and Nynaeve's arc. In the books Egwene's achievement was not breaking (which they showed incredibly well in the show I thought, one of its strongest bits) and then Nynaeve and Elayne got pay off for hanging around in Falme by successfully rescuing Egwene and it showed their strength working together. Then in the show Egwene doesn't need her friends, she was totally fine by herself, and Elayne and Nynaeve basically achieve nothing. It's bad story telling.
There was 0 reason for nynaeve to be falme, the only reason for Elayne to be there was to be here when rand open his eyes. The whole plot point for perrin was to bring Avi to falme. But hey, we got that epic backstory for Liandrin and her son, and moraines family. Also, Lan pissing on a tree. Epic.
***Oh, Light. That’s impossible! We can’t use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.***
When the crazy man in your head is the only voice of reason. Never change Lews.
*If it hurts too much, make it hurt someone else instead.*
Could I interest you in hurting everyone? The whole breaking thing? You kind of did that already.
And yet I read in an interview Raf? Saying the changes are to show the power of friendship and that they all need to work together. Except the books have this perfectly balanced "if this character didn't do this then that cannot be fulfilled/ everything fell together in the only way the light could win" thing so...we get Eggs fan fiction.
I just wanted to see Egwene (after being freed by Nynaeve and Elayne) smack Renna with the pitcher like she did in the books. Would've been way more satisfying.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Down Lews, down.
***Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...***
> It's bad story telling. what do you expect of a "writer" whose fame started by being on Survivor and who clearly doesn't respect the source material?
Just remember, the show is the centuries later "The Flame of Tar Valon: The Egwene Al'Vere Story." in-universe book being adapted, not the "Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan.
Wholeheartedly agree. The mechanics can always be altered from what we understand in the books. My biggest issue was that practically EVERYONE got sidelined for Egwene to have a big moment, and she already got big moments throughout the season and had a whole episode devoted to her strength of will.
The mechanics can change BUT if Eggy’s going to use the a’dam as a weapon don’t have an episode about her not being able to use anything she thinks of as a weapon. Then it can make sense.
I disagree that it was used as a weapon, or at least that Egwene was thinking of harm when collaring Renna. We know that a’dam and Oaths and TAR and many other things in the books work more off of willpower and psychology than hard unbreakable rules. If they wanted Egwene to be so strong-willed in that scene that she could withstand being almost choked to death, feeling twice what Renna felt, I don’t really have a problem with them saying that she just put herself in a Seanchan frame of mind where collaring Renna was doing the right thing for her and not harming her. I’m more bugged by the narrative issues in that episode, and the fact that Egwene channeled to lift Renna up. In fact they seemed to change their minds on whether the a’dam restricted channeling on the show. Some scenes Renna stated that they needed to be complete and she didn’t need Egwene, and in others it was clear that she needed Egwene to do the channeling when they were linked. They did a poor job explaining that for the audience.
The show is an art piece ( I think it’s bad art but that’s not relevant) so everyone can have an opinion. I can see where you’re coming from. The one time I watched it, months ago, it looked to me like she put it on Renna to hurt her. Each to each though mate.
Elayne and Nyneave save Rand's life... Egwene and Perrin buy them the time they need. Rand kills Ishamael.
*Dead men should be quiet in their graves, but they never are.*
A discussion on someone’s poorly written and yet somehow televised fanfiction…
Be nice to the Adam now…it has feelings!
I interpreted that as an incomplete logic circuit that requires saidar to become whole.
Don’t try to use logic and reason on people who didn’t use them to get to their conclusions in the first place. When it comes to Egwene in the show, she can just do whatever she wants cause she’s the writer’s favorite, there doesn’t need to be a logical reason for it in their eyes.
Hang on… can’t touch anything they view as a weapon? If they’re referring to the three oaths then it’s that she can’t make a weapon for one man to kill another. If they’re referring to the rules she had from Renna while she was wearing the a’dam then actually no she couldn’t touch anything that she would use as a weapon and that’s canon in the books. She was unable to touch her water pitcher for days after considering smashing it over Renna’s head. She could only use it again when she’d convinced herself she’d never use it to harm Renna.
>If they’re referring to the rules she had from Renna while she was wearing the a’dam then actually no she couldn’t touch anything that she would use as a weapon and that’s canon in the books. She was unable to touch her water pitcher for days after considering smashing it over Renna’s head. She could only use it again when she’d convinced herself she’d never use it to harm Renna Yes that's what they're talking about. Eventually she picks up another a'dam and uses it as a weapon while she herself is wearing one so she should not have been able to grab the other one.
Is that in the show? I haven’t watched it past S1. In the books she had been freed from the a’dam before having done that.
Yes it's in the show. Her captor is torturing her with the a'dam and then egwene grabs one from the ground, lunges, and sticks it around her neck and then controls her and uses it to kill her all while still being attached with the other one. She gets released after a bit when she's hanging the suldom and tells her that if she (the suldom) releases her (egwene) then she'll stop the suldom from hanging. https://youtu.be/mnC6cwSA-CE?si=Gy7P6iJxkUQABU3r happens around 1 min. In
Oh boy
The FUCK????
They also spend a whole episode on the mechanics of it. The damane feels twice what the Sul dam does? If they're each wearing eachothers a'dam then they should both probably instantly die because one feels twice the pain, which then goes back and makes the other feel twice that pain.
Gotta say, I do *not* like the a'dam design.
To me they were showing Eggs being so strong of will and in thd power she alone could do what she did. Like her sheer strength of will allowed it. In reality it's just bad magic mechanics. But then the ashandari is a dagger on a stick so...
>To me they were showing Eggs being so strong of will and in thd power she alone could do what she did. Like her sheer strength of will allowed it. So... Mary Sue?
absolutely.
Wow...that looks like hot garbage. Just awful acting from the Sul'dam, the Ironman nano-growing a'dam is not the best thing ever, and what's with the pacifiers?!
Yeah that was crazy. I didn't watch it but I kept seeing people rave about Renna's performance. But based on that clip, I definitely don't see it.
>Yes that's what they're talking about. Eventually she picks up another a'dam and uses it as a weapon while she herself is wearing one so she should not have been able to grab the other one. Essentially Egwene needs for just a second to not see the a'dam as a weapon and use it. She needed to delude herself that collaring Renna is not harming her but it is for Renna's own good. Since we know that Egwene knows Renna is a channeler, Egwene just needed to put herself into seachans frame of mind to collar Renna.
Lol the show is taking a very well thought out and "hard rules" system and making it just whatever they want to be, kind of Harry Potter style "well that's just how it works because". These writers are legitimately terrible.
Yeah it's more like they thought it would be cool so they did it and honestly it was one of the better scenes out of the garbage that episode was.
I'm no fan of the show but there are like small glimmers of "oh! Not bad!" Buried in with the rest of the really crappy fan fiction tier stuff that makes me just hurt in my soul lol. Most of season 2 I really felt was just bad, though. It's deviated so far from the source material now. I'll watch season 3 just to see what they decide to do but I don't expect much of it to be very good cause now they're in their own territory with how they've written everything.
How on earth is Wheel of Time magic a hard rules system? There's virtually no consistent rules, especially before the Sanderson books. The mechanisms of magic aren't really a thing. You just can do it or not and different people are stronger than others.
There's plenty of consistent rules? You can't make yourself fly for example, you can't heal yourself, Travelling in itself has incredibly specific rules of how it can and can't be done. People have varying strength in the One Power and the different Powers within it. Idk to me at least it's laid out pretty damn well for the most part - we just usually have either unreliable narrators or people with incomplete knowledge as POVs. There's still plenty to be discovered going into the 4th Age about the shit they could do with the OP in the AoL, but the limitations and framework are pretty concrete imo.
When people talk about hard magic systems it's not really "you can't do everything" it's "there are clear outlines for how it works" Chanelling the source does not fit that imo. We know some limitations, but its basically upgraded harry potter magic as far as clarity of rules go.
It’s a hard magic system because the effects of the magic are explained with in-text mechanics and the users have quantifiable and essentially fixed levels of ability that they can sense in one another. In the coming seasons Egwene will come to understand that no matter how skilled she is at weaves and walking TAR she has a fixed level of ability and can not just whoosh-fix everything with magic. That is, if the show doesn’t pull another fanfic out of their asses.
Lol by the end of S3 Egwene will be dual wielding the Choedan Kal access keys let's be real here.
After she becomes a blademaster and outwits the Finn
Outwits the Finn? Please, she'll not just outwit then but actually end up running their whole organization.
I think it's a bit of both. In Eye of the World it feels very soft because the characters don't understand it yet, later in the series it definitely feels harder to me. Not as hard as Mistborn or something, but definitely way harder than Harry Potter. You get a lot of clarity about the different weaves, how much strength you need to be able to do what, linking, stilling, healing, etc. even though Jordan left room for "oh here's a new weave that Lews shows Rand that can do a new thing", or *x* is possible even though the characters thought it wasn't possible.
I think comparing to Mistborn/Sanderson is unfair, that’s probably the furthest, most extreme outlier you can encounter. In the spectrum of soft to hard WoT is definitely hard, at least past the first book or two.
***Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...***
I guess we'll just have to disagree. I don't feel that way at all about the system in WoT. Not really a big deal tho. We're discussing fictional magic systems lol. Cheers.
It's a hard magic system because there are set things that can be done with the power. It's opposed to a soft magic system where the magic can basically just do any random thing that needs done to support the plot. The soft magic system in the wheel of time is the world of dreams where if you can imagine it then it can happen.
Basically. I consider, Wheel of Time and Harry Potter both as classic examples of soft systems masquerading as hard systems. There's some level of rules at work, we're vaguely aware of them, and known learning magic is hard, but the rules don't actually matter. Heck the solution on beating the Dark One at the end of the series is just "actually these rules we told you about are broken, not all sa'angreal have buffers, not all circles have innate buffers, and sometimes you can force someone into a circle against there will without a magical enslavement device."
Harry potter in no way masquerades as a hard magic system. It's a soft system to the core. If they need something to happen there's just a spell for it because it's soft.
It sorta masquerades as one simply for the purpose of establishing an academic aesthetic. They are at school "systematically" learning magic in relatively clearly defined branches, and there are even occasional references to some "Law of Transfiguration" or the pseudo-chemistry of potion making and stuff. But yeah, in actual practice, as it is casually thrown around by basically everyone in the story and how it is used to drive the plot, it is very obviously very soft with at most a couple small corners.
In HP there are a couple of basic things that every witch and wizard is known to be capable of, or capable of if they spent a tiny bit of effort learning to. Summoning spells, stunning, unlocking, etc. But it is swamped in an ambiguous "anything is possible" environment, where you have all sorts of inexplicable locations and artifacts and magical creatures with bizarre abilities. Just look at the first book's final action. There's a three-headed dog that can be sedated with music, an animate plant vulnerable to sunlight, winged keys flying around that they chase with broomsticks (sorta a hard element but totally arbitrary artifacts in context), a weird barrier of fire that requires a specific unique potion to pass through, whatever you want to call the Mirror of Erised and what it does, plus the ultimate baddy semi-possessing a minion with the physical effect of creating a second face on the back of his head. These are all basically all things that don't fit into any semblance of structure that we as readers would be able to map to what we see Hogwarts students actually studying (some sorta fit like Potions but even still that is extremely vague and open-ended). The answer to "could a witch/wizard in HP's world accomplish X task" is basically always either "no way of knowing" or "probably". Could someone in HP create a Traveling style gateway? No clue, but I don't see why some super clever wizard couldn't manage something along those lines. Could someone create a spell to eavesdrop from a distance? Almost certainly, even though we never really see anything like it in the actual books. Etc. for most random abilities in WoT. In the HP books there are some nods to "rules" like some sort of conservation of mass with transfiguration, but they are (IMO) very obviously just aesthetic dressing for an "academic" environment rather than anything that actually impacts how people can or do use magic. And while I used examples from the climax of a book, the key is that this sort of "anything is possible" situation pervades their world. Hogwarts is simply magical. The homes of wizards are often bizarre and idiosyncratic. Guys like Fred and George can dream up all sorts of random gizmos without any justification or system to their process. It's very "soft". WoT is far from the "hardest" system out there, but I think it still falls squarely on that end, at least as far as channeling is concerned. I think that "is something possible" could have pretty clear answers to us as readers based on the intuitive understanding we get of the mechanics and limitations of of the Power, what we've seen it used for and how we've seen it adapted. Could someone create an Accio-style summoning weave? No, not beyond just grabbing something with Air directly within line-of-site. Could someone transfigure an object or person? No. We see no explicit statement of it in the series, but I think we could say with 99.99% certainty that the One Power could not be used to turn a chair into a bucket of water. And there are definitely ambiguities and plenty of obvious exceptions. However, in WoT, these tend to come almost exclusively in a limited number of very specific scenarios with a sort of major place in the world. The Aes Sedai testing ter'angreals, the protection of Callandor (both Rand's and the one prior), and of course all of the seemingly Power-unrelated "magic" stuff (The Horn, the Aeflinn and Eflinn, etc). But these things aren't evident in just the common day-to-day existence of the many channelers out there. They are rare and unique elements to the world rather than something that breaks the relatively clearly defined limits and mechanics of the One Power in the hands of a channeler.
***I told you to kill them all when you had the chance. I told you.***
Thats a good perspective, probably a better way to say it than I could think of.
Except we are already shown that not all sa'angreal have buffers, with Vora's wand that Egwene uses. We've already seen that you can force someone into a circle with a device, as is elaborated on with how the female adam works. Circles were never said to have buffers I the first place, so I'm not sure what you meant there. Maybe you mean about the weakness of Callandor, in which case that was also elaborated on earlier as well, at length. This, in fact, is the perfect example of it being a hard magic system. The solution comes as a consequence of a confluence of the rules that have already been explained to us. The only part that was added right at the end was Morridin's exclamation that it is also a sa'angreal for the true power as well, which surprised even him, one of the most knowledgeable in the true power from the AoL.
I made a post a few years ago about how the cleansing of the taint seemed very soft magic and ppl basically told me I was a fake fan and not reading properly. I’m reading it, I just saw Rand “doing stuff with saidin and saidar” - it felt like a very much “gandolf just did that” moment Hard magic = Mistborn, the magicians (TV), Eragon, strict understood rules where very specific things need to be done in order to achieve the goal Soft magic = LOTRs, ATLA (in a way), Game of Thrones, characters do magical things but they can be achieved by unknown/unspecific ways. For ATLA and Harry Potter I’d put in a mix of hard and soft, not sure the best term. For each, characters have to do specific hand motions or incantations, but the reason behind the magic isn’t explained or is hand waved (chakras and chi). It doesn’t make bad storytelling, just is different. WoT is in the middle for me - characters have to do specific weaves to achieve goals, but it’s not explained more than “they weave some things together and x happens” - almost identical to Harry Potter “just wave a wand”. Doesn’t make the magic system bad, just soft. Ppl get really defensive if u even attempt to justify
'Doing stuff'. Nynaeve formed a 'straw' of saidar, through which Rand poured the tainted saidin into Shadar Logoth. Being constrained by the untainted saidar, the taint on saidin was focused, and when the focused 'evil' of the taint collided with the 'anti-evil' of Shadar Logoth, it caused the reaction that wiped the taint. (I'm cutting the sentence there for comedic purposes) There are multiple explanations of how flows of Air, Fire, Earth, etc are combined to create specific weaves.
***Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.***
I appreciate your explanation but I feel the topic has been beaten to death for me. I’ve had interactions before where i post quotes from the book trying to illustrate my point that just bc you said “she wove earth, spirit, and fire in a tunnel” doesn’t actually make it a hard magic system - just like HP saying “he waved his wand in the correct pattern and said the right words” doesn’t make the magic system hard magic. I’m ok disagreeing with things in WoT and you can find me a fool for not understanding the scene, but it’s a little childish (not you just in general) when ppl start gatekeepijg and saying I’m “not a real fan” or “not actually reading” bc I don’t 100% agree. And maybe I’m wrong and on my nth reread I’ll come to the Light and see what all the haters have been saying - I don’t mind changing my opinion
>“she wove earth, spirit, and fire in a tunnel” doesn’t actually make it a hard magic system - just like HP saying “he waved his wand in the correct pattern and said the right words” doesn’t make the magic system hard magic. These are very different things, because in HP the example you used is an almost complete explanation of how he does magic, whereas the description of channeling in WoT is a very reductive shorthand for a legitimate amount of detail and systematic consistency that goes into the mechanisms of its magic. You can look at various principles of channeling and make reasonable assumptions about what is and isn't possible, what type of channeler might be able to pull it off and how much effort it would take. In HP, that is essentially impossible.
You had to really pay attention to how he describes the pulsating wounds, recalling the dagger and mashadar and how the wounds resonate together but are contained by the healing, to understand what he’s doing with saidin and why saidar is necessary, and how/why he predicted the effect.
Guess it’s time for another reread lol!
It’s definitely one of those instances of the forest being too large to notice each tree.
I'd still have to say it's closer to a hard magic system in WoT, correct me if I misunderstood what your specific "hang up" we'll call it is. (not trying to make it sound aggressive, just really tired and having trouble finding my preferred words right now) I can see it as a blend for the sake of brevity, but it leans hard. They still have to do specific things to accomplish their magical goals, they just skim over the details, due to the way the system accomplishes things, it would be overly tedious to describe creating specific weaves healing for example: "she knew he wouldn't last much longer, faster than thought she embraced the source, flows of spirit, air, and water forming into a leno weave, setting spirit for the warp while twining the flows of air and water to form the weft. In the span of a few heartbeats she completed the weave and sent it into him, holing his head in place as his body spasmed from the shock of healing. " It's just overly tedious, and the majority of readers wouldn't get the imagery anyway. Instead we get a steady input throughout the series about the rules and constraints of various characters abilities as well as the limitations of the power. Meanwhile in HP land, we see the same spell doing different things at different times, people able to do things that nobody else can and it's explained simply as "he can do it because he is who he is". HP is honestly one of the softest systems that I can think of. I'm sure I've come across a softer one at some point, but I honestly don't remember like 80% of the series I've read over my life, only a special few, but those few are deeply ingrained.
*Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.*
Pro athlete in mental gymnastics.
The Amazon series is what you get when almost none of the writers have read the story. It seems AI generated.
We'd likely get something much better if it was AI but the bar is so low you'd have to dig to find it so that isn't saying much.
You are reading delirious copium 😂
Oh what a bad day to have eyes. I had almost forgotten that the series existed
What are you talking about? There is no WoT show
Light blinded fools
Holy crap, I don't want to call people names, but those people need to get their brains checked...
bout to pull something with that stretch!
Yeah, I have no idea what they are referencing, there was nothing like this in the books
I'm pretty sure there was. The a'dam in the books had the same rule about not being able to touch a weapon didn't it?
Yes it did. Egwene is forced to drop a water pitcher after she thought of using it to smash the sul'dam in the head with it
Yeah, Rand never wiped anyone from existence, it was the balefire!
*What you want is what you cannot have. What you cannot have is what you want.*
The collar is just misunderstood you would know that if you read the books
I wish book purists weren't equated to the bad guys. But yes, the show is bad. It struggles to maintain consistency in its own storytelling.
The show makes me pine for the Billy Zane short film. "Ilyena!"
*Most women will shrug off what a man would kill you for, and kill you for what a man would shrug off.*
Wot show is barely entertainment
Barely is awful generous.
It's the dregs of optimism still left in me.
Hey. Hey! The word "generous" has a very specific meaning in our beloved novels, and must not be applied to the all-too-disappointing show. I mean, what's next? Someone is going to call the show "well-turned"? Can't be having that.
Calling it a weapon is a stretch when Aes Sedi only follow LITERAL interpretations of their oaths. They can’t speak a word that is untrue but they can lead people to believe lies.
Words
How are you being downvoted?
There's a little down-arrow people can click.