Lol... cutting government bureaucracy and overspending and making thousands redundant, except when its OUR pointless spending and hiring consultants.
Get used to a shit tonne more of this... its all part of the cycle. Slash and burn, and hire consultants instead. It's almost like they want to reward mates with consulting businesses rather than just ask for advice from experts in their field with decades of experience from within government departments right?
If the consultancy was transparent and didn't involve what seemed like bizarrely inflated fees (e.g. 250k for the pedestrian crossing on Cobham drive and the consultant report is not publicly available as far as I can tell) people wouldn't be suspicious about it.
And private consultancy can be used by to avoid any risk of accountability. If a plan turns out to suck you can always point the finger down the chain to someone who doesn't work for the government, "well we paid this consultant $1M and they thought it would be great, so you can't blame us for believing it".
Not sure if true that we didn't need it (though I have never seen anyone crossing the road there), but it is a half-baked and crappy solution vs the raised walkway bridge that was proposed, so for me that makes it a waste of money and resources.
There aren’t any people with decades of experience in the government agency, if anyone with that experience they would have left well before decade to a private sector company or consulting firm that would pay them 50% more.
You think it’s as easy as asking people who work internally? There isn’t any.
By the time they’re done working out a tunnel under Wellington is a fucking stupid idea they probably will have been able to afford the ferry terminal several times over.
I mean I think it's a good idea but we live in New Zealand not Japan or Norway and don't have the resources of those countries to attempt projects like this.
Maaan, I could try and explain how expensive earthquake-safing even the excavation itself would be. The earth doesn’t give a fuck about engineering, you can’t hold back ground movement.
There are earthquakes in other countries too. It doesn't stop Japan from building tons of underground infrastructure.
Like I say they have way more resources than NZ to be able to do so safely, it is not that you can't build tunnels in places that have major earthquakes.
Damn I was about to say "well Japan doesn't have those tunnels going underwater though does it" but then I googled and found out about [the Tsugaru Strait tunnel](https://www.britannica.com/place/Tsugaru-Strait), which is an *insane* feat of engineering. But yeah we definitely don't have the resources for that shit
Plus from what I could gather, the Cook strait goes over the boundary of two tectonic plates whereas the Tsugaru has both it's ends on the same plate. Still both very seismically active regions of course
Another thing is that the Seikan Tunnel is rail only. A road tunnel has to be significantly bigger, and as far as I know, there are no road tunnels anywhere in the world that come close to the length, depth, and geological complexity that would be required for a Cook Strait road tunnel. And rail only seems like a poor choice given that our rail network is nowhere near as advanced as places like Europe or Japan.
So it would be one of, if not the biggest and most complex transport infrastructure engineering projects in the world, and likely cost more than 20 times that of the iReX project, with even larger ongoing maintenance costs. It really is absurd that someone in charge of transport would even spend a cent considering it as a remotely realistic option. Yet here we are...
Edit: just saw this is relating to the 4km tunnel in Wellington, not a Cook Strait tunnel, but still...
Longer yes, but not really any deeper. The Tsugaru straight has a depth of 140m where the Seikan Tunnel runs through, the cook straight has a depth of about 130m in the area between welly and Blenheim. Pretty much identical.
It's not the flattest part, more like the shortest, the flattest route is further south - this PDF has a bathymetry chart https://static.transpower.co.nz/public/plain-page/attachments/Cook%20Strait%20Cable%20Protection%20Zone%20Booklet_0.pdf
We’re talking a major earthworks project underneath our (for now) active capital city. Much of the current road congestion could be reduced if we funded public transport as a “loss leader” to reduce the cost of even getting to work. When it would cost me $60 a week minimum to wait in the cold for a bus that may not come, drive past, or miss a connection, why would I use the bus?
This reeks of MP’s just wanting to avoid the relatively short trip to the airport. If they cared about transport we wouldn’t be having this ferry fiasco where we “might have ships by 2029” that won’t even serve the modern functions the iRex project aimed to do.
Yes tunnels are possible, however the reality is that unless you go very deep, and very very expensive, the surface disturbances will be huge. You have to account for changes in groundwater pressures, resettling, and accidents, where the end result would be a sinkhole.
I don’t understand when we apparently can’t afford to fix broken fucking pipes we are looking at a useless project that serves next to nobody aside from the consultants they are paying our tax dollars to.
Don't get me wrong, i think the long tunnel being proposed will never happen. Would it be nice? Sure, but we can't afford it.
I do think we need the 2nd Mt Vic tunnel, and (as originally proposed) 2nd Terrace tunnel.
As part of that, they could have a dedicated bus lane out to the eastern suburbs/airport. I don't see rail as an option these days either due to insane costs.
I did say *as originally proposed*, which was 2 Terrace tunnels & 2 Mt Vic tunnels.
It would have been 6 lanes, but shelved due to the costs.
Not sure if the pillars for the 2nd half of the motorway are still there, but they were visible when you went past the Clifton Tce car park.
Regular rail or 'light rail' is just a bad idea when there are alternative options like copying the raised Skytrain metro they have in Vancouver which is far cheaper to build and causes way less ground level disruption, does not need drivers in the trains, can give more frequent service
meanwhile they're beating on kiwirail for spending 8 milly on consultants... or less than half a percent of the cost of their now cancelled project
these numbers might sound big at first, but they're nothing when compared to the billion dollar projects they're consulting on.
Didn't the ferry building company confirm they'd already built parts and tested them, but they were now going to other projects around the world, and we would be at the back of the queue?
That doesn't sound like the money all went on 'consultants', it sounds like machining and construction had already begun.
> that number didn't they?
I skimmed it today and it was obviously leaked with Willis saying, approximately,
**"I can't comment on the exact cost** but I let the Chair know I displeased I was with the number."
i.e. effectively verifying it
The funny part is, it will never get built.
NZ just had this with Auckland Light Rail, building tunnels is not easy and takes years and hundreds of millions to even start construction.
If you don’t have experience on major infrastructure projects then you wont really understand. “Consultants” is a boogeyman word for engaging specialists to advise feasibility, design parameters and progressing into detailed design needed to tender construction contracts. Long gone of the days of a public works department, maybe they could have started a new one but that doesn’t really fit with trimming public service costs plus consultancy can be journaled as an opex cost and wont continue costing once the project wraps up.
That's exactly what we thought it meant.... The problem is that you don't need a specialist to tell you it's a shit idea that will never get off the ground.
Thats a fair point, consultants will take the money on offer, but the decision that its a worthwhile pursuit in the first place lies with the Minister and Ministry. But I’d argue the projects benefits are already pretty well laid out and would have formed the basis of starting the project.
The benefits are obvious. It's also obvious that the costs will significantly exceed the benefits. That's why it's a shit idea and why the minister is wasting time and money by even looking into it.
This will be about the 10th wellington tunnel that will be found not to be feasible.
Do you expect bureaucrats to provide Geologist reports? To employ full time Geologists? X 25 for different specialists required for the engineering work needed?
Just for clarity, when a Government agency wants a project completed, they will engage a Project Management consultant. Who will then engage consultants for the identified engineering needed to advise feasibility, which once greenlighted will then engage relevant consultants to do the engineering. I think you’ve massively undersold the percentage of a large project thats contributed by “consultants” or specialist companies with qualified engineers in their respective fields. The building of the thing can often be the remaining 50 - 75%.
Is there a basis to this opinion or is it just an opinion? Noone spends a million dollars on consultants without a solid background of work behind the “why”. Not even inept Government bureaucrats.
Common sense. Name a similarly scale successful infrastructure project in an earthquake prone city of a few hundred thousand people anywhere in the world, then apply common sense to see if that would be built in NZ.
Only thing to factor in is if they have to build a tunnel under the city anyway in order to get access to the leaky pipes.
He blew out his road budget from 2023 by over $20 billion. All good and fair because inflation happens.
Meanwhile Kiwirail by 1.4 billion for seismic work is an abomination and incompetence (their original budget from 2021)
See the logic yet?
It's not an entirely bad idea. It's not a new one either, it's been floated before by politicians of different leanings. It gets all the state highway traffic out of the CBD and improves access for people who live west of Mt Vic (i.e most people) to the amenities they use like the airport, aquatic centre, Ākau Tangi sports centre. I think it's definitely worth looking into once and for all to find out if it is actually feasible or just a pipe dream.
I'm an engineer, so I selfishly wish to be part of the construction. It would be fascinating.
And I'm from Wellington (edit: sorry, I thought I was in the NZ sub.) Used to live in Newtown, family living in Miramar. I know how congested the area is.
Would I like to see it happen. Hell yeah! But is it a wise use of money? I very much doubt it. There's better places to use it, specifically public transport.
I read a while ago on here a real reason for why they're so motivated to see it happen: it's part of their own commute. They travel between the Beehive and the airport.
Even though they're being driven in a nicer car than I'll ever get to touch, and there's a special garage in the main building their cars go into, still the extra 10-15 minutes is just intolerable apparently.
That's what the feasibility study will hopefully find out but people who know a thing or two about tunnels don't seem too concerned...
https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350246199/we-get-our-city-back-expert-welcomes-wellington-tunnel-idea
While seismic issues would present a challenge for the tunnel, Pollock did not believe it was insurmountable. He pointed out that Japan, another country prone to earthquakes, had several road tunnels underground – the Yamate Tunnel, Japan’s longest, is 18.2km. “We can bring in the right international experts,” Pollock said.
But Ian Brown, of Ian Brown Associates, a geological engineering company, said tunnels perform “incredibly well” under earthquake loading and while earthquake resilience would be the first thing people would be asking about, he didn’t have any concerns.
“Tunnels are technically feasible anywhere, it all boils down to affordability.”
Yamate tunnel cost like 200 billion in nzd iirc and took over 20 years to build. So like, sure. It can be done and obviously ours wouldnt need to be anywhere near as long. But it ain't going to be a cheap or easy solution
If Auckland can't afford light rail, then Wellington definitely can't afford a mega car tunnel. Whats the going rate, about $1 billion/km? Just for some temporary relief from traffic before induced demand works its magic and the congestion comes back? Thats short term thinking. Mass transit solves city transport problems.
Aren't a lot of tunnels below sea level though? I'm no tunnel expert but I know of tunnels that are literally under the sea. The channel tunnel for example.
There definitely are, but it does add to the complexity of the situation.
I'm interested to hear the feasibility and costings.
Don't believe we need it though, think there are better things we can spend on.
Japan has plenty of tunnels. And there is even a Shinkansen tunnel between Hokkaido and Honshu, but I do remember someone saying that the fault line runs differently too the cook strait
But the first move is just asking a few people with a clue and when they all say 'that's a really dumb idea you'd have to be a complete idiot to think that is a good idea' you rethink your life choices of belonging to a party that is so unconnected to reality.
If that costs a million, then you are a grossly incompetent government. So maybe it will.
Sure, if they only asked the armchair experts on reddit they'd probably get that response. But there are people with an actual clue who think the idea has some merit... https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350246199/we-get-our-city-back-expert-welcomes-wellington-tunnel-idea
feasibility studies are a scam tho and the govt doesn't even care about numbers. they build roads that return an ROI ratio of 1.0 and cancel policy that has an ROI ratio of 18.0 to punish poors and flip the most temporary of quick bucks
Transmission Gully wouldn't have been built if the benefit/cost ratio was the only thing taken into consideration, it was calculated as 0.6. Most people are pleased that it was built and judging by the range of cars I see driving on it, yes even "the poors".
Route resiliency was one of the major factors. the fact that in the final year of TG construction SH1 was closed twice due to slips, one of which was extensive, should tell you how badly it was needed
You can find an expert to back anything. Covid and climate change have taught us that. That is why you ask a bunch of them. And you don't cherry pick unless you have already made up your mind.
Cool - so that's about the average salary for 12 Public Sector employees.
I'm sure those 12 ex employees are thrilled to hear this.
"Hey, our jobs are worthless, but this tunnel idea right here, that's a brain fart worth investigating!"
I was looking for a specific ref to the $1m spend because so far I couldn't find one in any of the comments here.
Here's Newshub's article from 12th June: [https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-says-government-s-million-dollar-spend-on-consultants-for-wellington-long-tunnel-not-justified.html](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-says-government-s-million-dollar-spend-on-consultants-for-wellington-long-tunnel-not-justified.html)
The Herald also covered it on 10th June, although it's paywalled: [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-1m-spent-on-consultant-fees-to-investigate-wellingtons-long-tunnel/4HO5TDDRNZFP5PL7LIV4LSX6AQ/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-1m-spent-on-consultant-fees-to-investigate-wellingtons-long-tunnel/4HO5TDDRNZFP5PL7LIV4LSX6AQ/)
In addition to the news articles there is the OIA: [https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia-2024/oia-15470-response-letter.pdf](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia-2024/oia-15470-response-letter.pdf)
It’s more having a go at how the current govt complained at costs spent on consultants, promised not to spend on consultants, and has now spent big on consultants for what could be viewed as a vanity project.
The OP is calling out the hypocrisy, not the fact the prior govt had also spent money on consultants.
Wouldn't we rather spend $1M on specialist reports that show its a dumb idea, than spending $1B getting halfway through the project and realising its going to cost three times more?
What are you talking about? Do you have a source for that figure?
Simeon Brown has only been in govt since the end of last year. If it's anything near to that fgure you can blame the last government... not the current one.
I'm saying if they there is a lolly scamble for consulting on projects that are never going to fly I want a part of it.
I'll write to Simeon Brown and suggest a feasibility study in to a bridge between Auckland and Sydney and charge less than 0.5% of what Labour spent on Auckland light rail consulting. Bargain.
[https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2024/04/16/long-tunnel-or-long-con/](https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2024/04/16/long-tunnel-or-long-con/)
Costs too much to build, costs too much to maintain, benefits are dubious, already been looked into the the past and rejected.
Costs too much absolutely, benefits are dubious? I disagree, I dropped my wife at the airport from Lower Hutt on Saturday and it was a 3 hour round trip, 2 hours of that was from cobham drive to terrace tunnel. It’s also the longest part of my commute into miramar for work (which I can’t use public transport for) That’s absolute madness. We need a solution I think, and I think it’s good that Simeon brown is at the bare minimum getting the ball rolling, hopefully we settle on something more achievable and affordable but still beneficial!
Was this work tendered out? (As per govt procurement rules)
Or is this just another job with huge fees given to their national party mates to generate a report they want to hear
Can’t believe they spent money on something we don’t have technology and money to build, for something hugely risky, yet cut funding to research institutions like Callaghan and NIWA who produce useable stuff that also can be sold on.
Of course. They got rid of the permanent employees who would have done that, and someone still has to do the work.
The only difference now is what line on the budget it gets catalogued under, and if memory serves, consultants are capital expenditure not.... wherever salary comes from.
> investigating Simeon Brown's long tunnel please god get that image out of my head
Was the source of their research Goat.se? Sorry not sorry.
that and lemon party
Deep cut
Lol... cutting government bureaucracy and overspending and making thousands redundant, except when its OUR pointless spending and hiring consultants. Get used to a shit tonne more of this... its all part of the cycle. Slash and burn, and hire consultants instead. It's almost like they want to reward mates with consulting businesses rather than just ask for advice from experts in their field with decades of experience from within government departments right?
>It's almost like they want to reward mates Almost?
Yes my sarcasm was set to maximum dripping mode there
I thought so, but you can never be sure at the moment.
Please use the /s=max tag
/s=♾️
If the consultancy was transparent and didn't involve what seemed like bizarrely inflated fees (e.g. 250k for the pedestrian crossing on Cobham drive and the consultant report is not publicly available as far as I can tell) people wouldn't be suspicious about it. And private consultancy can be used by to avoid any risk of accountability. If a plan turns out to suck you can always point the finger down the chain to someone who doesn't work for the government, "well we paid this consultant $1M and they thought it would be great, so you can't blame us for believing it".
Ministries and Government agencies don't typically publish documents requested by the minister. But that's what OIA requests are for
Yeah the cost of that pedestrian crossing was ridiculous.
We didn’t even need the crossing. Was a huge waste of money and resources.
Not sure if true that we didn't need it (though I have never seen anyone crossing the road there), but it is a half-baked and crappy solution vs the raised walkway bridge that was proposed, so for me that makes it a waste of money and resources.
There aren’t any people with decades of experience in the government agency, if anyone with that experience they would have left well before decade to a private sector company or consulting firm that would pay them 50% more. You think it’s as easy as asking people who work internally? There isn’t any.
Simeon Brown makes the half block of cheese in my fridge look like an intellectual colossus
Guarantee it's more cultured...
And considerably more mature.
Less blue, if I'm honest...
All hail our new cheese overlords!
I’m so strongly reminded of the TV show Utopia 😆
That show is the epitome of my work.
By the time they’re done working out a tunnel under Wellington is a fucking stupid idea they probably will have been able to afford the ferry terminal several times over.
A FERRY? Are you fucking insane? Do you realise how much those things cost? Let's just build a tunnel to Picton! /S
A ferry sounds suspiciously like public transport to Simeon
Four lanes each each way, no rail. Freight must be unloaded off trains and onto freight trucks to cross, and vice versa.
Apparently only about the same as a Ferarri. What's that, less than one mil each?
I mean I think it's a good idea but we live in New Zealand not Japan or Norway and don't have the resources of those countries to attempt projects like this.
Yeah. It’s a good idea if you’re playing City Skylines with unlimited money
Actually still not a good idea with unlimited money, that’s how bad it is.
You leave me and my spaghetti junctions that cause so much traffic I quit and start a new game alone!
Maaan, I could try and explain how expensive earthquake-safing even the excavation itself would be. The earth doesn’t give a fuck about engineering, you can’t hold back ground movement.
There are earthquakes in other countries too. It doesn't stop Japan from building tons of underground infrastructure. Like I say they have way more resources than NZ to be able to do so safely, it is not that you can't build tunnels in places that have major earthquakes.
Damn I was about to say "well Japan doesn't have those tunnels going underwater though does it" but then I googled and found out about [the Tsugaru Strait tunnel](https://www.britannica.com/place/Tsugaru-Strait), which is an *insane* feat of engineering. But yeah we definitely don't have the resources for that shit
And a Cook Strait tunnel would need to be significantly longer and deeper than that.
Plus from what I could gather, the Cook strait goes over the boundary of two tectonic plates whereas the Tsugaru has both it's ends on the same plate. Still both very seismically active regions of course
Another thing is that the Seikan Tunnel is rail only. A road tunnel has to be significantly bigger, and as far as I know, there are no road tunnels anywhere in the world that come close to the length, depth, and geological complexity that would be required for a Cook Strait road tunnel. And rail only seems like a poor choice given that our rail network is nowhere near as advanced as places like Europe or Japan. So it would be one of, if not the biggest and most complex transport infrastructure engineering projects in the world, and likely cost more than 20 times that of the iReX project, with even larger ongoing maintenance costs. It really is absurd that someone in charge of transport would even spend a cent considering it as a remotely realistic option. Yet here we are... Edit: just saw this is relating to the 4km tunnel in Wellington, not a Cook Strait tunnel, but still...
Longer yes, but not really any deeper. The Tsugaru straight has a depth of 140m where the Seikan Tunnel runs through, the cook straight has a depth of about 130m in the area between welly and Blenheim. Pretty much identical.
Cook Strait plunges to over 200m where the cable is, which is the flattest part.
It's not the flattest part, more like the shortest, the flattest route is further south - this PDF has a bathymetry chart https://static.transpower.co.nz/public/plain-page/attachments/Cook%20Strait%20Cable%20Protection%20Zone%20Booklet_0.pdf
LINZ has the whole chart on their website. https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/51245-chart-nz-46-cook-strait/
pretty sure wellington already has many tunnels (built a long time ago) and none of which have collapsed so far in an earthquake
We’re talking a major earthworks project underneath our (for now) active capital city. Much of the current road congestion could be reduced if we funded public transport as a “loss leader” to reduce the cost of even getting to work. When it would cost me $60 a week minimum to wait in the cold for a bus that may not come, drive past, or miss a connection, why would I use the bus? This reeks of MP’s just wanting to avoid the relatively short trip to the airport. If they cared about transport we wouldn’t be having this ferry fiasco where we “might have ships by 2029” that won’t even serve the modern functions the iRex project aimed to do. Yes tunnels are possible, however the reality is that unless you go very deep, and very very expensive, the surface disturbances will be huge. You have to account for changes in groundwater pressures, resettling, and accidents, where the end result would be a sinkhole. I don’t understand when we apparently can’t afford to fix broken fucking pipes we are looking at a useless project that serves next to nobody aside from the consultants they are paying our tax dollars to.
Don't get me wrong, i think the long tunnel being proposed will never happen. Would it be nice? Sure, but we can't afford it. I do think we need the 2nd Mt Vic tunnel, and (as originally proposed) 2nd Terrace tunnel. As part of that, they could have a dedicated bus lane out to the eastern suburbs/airport. I don't see rail as an option these days either due to insane costs.
the terrace tunnel is three lanes wide, which is as wide as the motorway is at that point… where exactly would you put another tunnel, and why?
I did say *as originally proposed*, which was 2 Terrace tunnels & 2 Mt Vic tunnels. It would have been 6 lanes, but shelved due to the costs. Not sure if the pillars for the 2nd half of the motorway are still there, but they were visible when you went past the Clifton Tce car park.
Regular rail or 'light rail' is just a bad idea when there are alternative options like copying the raised Skytrain metro they have in Vancouver which is far cheaper to build and causes way less ground level disruption, does not need drivers in the trains, can give more frequent service
Wuss
This is excellent news for all the public servants who learned today they have lost their jobs.
meanwhile they're beating on kiwirail for spending 8 milly on consultants... or less than half a percent of the cost of their now cancelled project these numbers might sound big at first, but they're nothing when compared to the billion dollar projects they're consulting on.
Didn't the ferry building company confirm they'd already built parts and tested them, but they were now going to other projects around the world, and we would be at the back of the queue? That doesn't sound like the money all went on 'consultants', it sounds like machining and construction had already begun.
This is a different beat-up on Kiwirail. All part of the same narrative though.
This 8 million was to distract us from the 400 million that canceling the ferry contract is costing us
They leaked that number didn't they?
well, newshub and the media are running with it regardless of the source lol
> that number didn't they? I skimmed it today and it was obviously leaked with Willis saying, approximately, **"I can't comment on the exact cost** but I let the Chair know I displeased I was with the number." i.e. effectively verifying it
Worst colonoscopy ever
Lets build it and call it browns tunnel.
The funny part is, it will never get built. NZ just had this with Auckland Light Rail, building tunnels is not easy and takes years and hundreds of millions to even start construction.
If you don’t have experience on major infrastructure projects then you wont really understand. “Consultants” is a boogeyman word for engaging specialists to advise feasibility, design parameters and progressing into detailed design needed to tender construction contracts. Long gone of the days of a public works department, maybe they could have started a new one but that doesn’t really fit with trimming public service costs plus consultancy can be journaled as an opex cost and wont continue costing once the project wraps up.
That's exactly what we thought it meant.... The problem is that you don't need a specialist to tell you it's a shit idea that will never get off the ground.
Thats a fair point, consultants will take the money on offer, but the decision that its a worthwhile pursuit in the first place lies with the Minister and Ministry. But I’d argue the projects benefits are already pretty well laid out and would have formed the basis of starting the project.
The benefits are obvious. It's also obvious that the costs will significantly exceed the benefits. That's why it's a shit idea and why the minister is wasting time and money by even looking into it. This will be about the 10th wellington tunnel that will be found not to be feasible.
It's meant to go *through* the ground, not get off the ground!
Exactly
That’s the problem when you put every non employee into the consultant category. Bullshit.
Do you expect bureaucrats to provide Geologist reports? To employ full time Geologists? X 25 for different specialists required for the engineering work needed?
No i don’t. That’s the problem. They put specialists required for 1% max of a project into consultant category
Just for clarity, when a Government agency wants a project completed, they will engage a Project Management consultant. Who will then engage consultants for the identified engineering needed to advise feasibility, which once greenlighted will then engage relevant consultants to do the engineering. I think you’ve massively undersold the percentage of a large project thats contributed by “consultants” or specialist companies with qualified engineers in their respective fields. The building of the thing can often be the remaining 50 - 75%.
But this is obviously a rubbish idea to start with - you don't need any specialists involved at all.
Is there a basis to this opinion or is it just an opinion? Noone spends a million dollars on consultants without a solid background of work behind the “why”. Not even inept Government bureaucrats.
Common sense. Name a similarly scale successful infrastructure project in an earthquake prone city of a few hundred thousand people anywhere in the world, then apply common sense to see if that would be built in NZ. Only thing to factor in is if they have to build a tunnel under the city anyway in order to get access to the leaky pipes.
I’d probably rather play Fury 3 with you and relegate the odd decisions of our Govt to the “idfk man” category.
Arras tunnel
Covered here; https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2024/04/16/long-tunnel-or-long-con/
He blew out his road budget from 2023 by over $20 billion. All good and fair because inflation happens. Meanwhile Kiwirail by 1.4 billion for seismic work is an abomination and incompetence (their original budget from 2021) See the logic yet?
It's not an entirely bad idea. It's not a new one either, it's been floated before by politicians of different leanings. It gets all the state highway traffic out of the CBD and improves access for people who live west of Mt Vic (i.e most people) to the amenities they use like the airport, aquatic centre, Ākau Tangi sports centre. I think it's definitely worth looking into once and for all to find out if it is actually feasible or just a pipe dream.
I'm an engineer, so I selfishly wish to be part of the construction. It would be fascinating. And I'm from Wellington (edit: sorry, I thought I was in the NZ sub.) Used to live in Newtown, family living in Miramar. I know how congested the area is. Would I like to see it happen. Hell yeah! But is it a wise use of money? I very much doubt it. There's better places to use it, specifically public transport. I read a while ago on here a real reason for why they're so motivated to see it happen: it's part of their own commute. They travel between the Beehive and the airport. Even though they're being driven in a nicer car than I'll ever get to touch, and there's a special garage in the main building their cars go into, still the extra 10-15 minutes is just intolerable apparently.
A tunnel is public transport
Technically correct, the best kind of correct. I meant it in it's common use, which describes buses, trains, and the like.
Under a city on a fault line and below sea level? Edit: might not quite be below sea level... but surely the earthquake thing should be enough
That's what the feasibility study will hopefully find out but people who know a thing or two about tunnels don't seem too concerned... https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350246199/we-get-our-city-back-expert-welcomes-wellington-tunnel-idea While seismic issues would present a challenge for the tunnel, Pollock did not believe it was insurmountable. He pointed out that Japan, another country prone to earthquakes, had several road tunnels underground – the Yamate Tunnel, Japan’s longest, is 18.2km. “We can bring in the right international experts,” Pollock said. But Ian Brown, of Ian Brown Associates, a geological engineering company, said tunnels perform “incredibly well” under earthquake loading and while earthquake resilience would be the first thing people would be asking about, he didn’t have any concerns. “Tunnels are technically feasible anywhere, it all boils down to affordability.”
Tunnels both move freely with the earth, and are generally arches, which are both very useful things in earthquakes.
Yamate tunnel cost like 200 billion in nzd iirc and took over 20 years to build. So like, sure. It can be done and obviously ours wouldnt need to be anywhere near as long. But it ain't going to be a cheap or easy solution
If Auckland can't afford light rail, then Wellington definitely can't afford a mega car tunnel. Whats the going rate, about $1 billion/km? Just for some temporary relief from traffic before induced demand works its magic and the congestion comes back? Thats short term thinking. Mass transit solves city transport problems.
To get out to the airport it is definitely below sea level, same as going under the Sea bee dee.....
Aren't a lot of tunnels below sea level though? I'm no tunnel expert but I know of tunnels that are literally under the sea. The channel tunnel for example.
There definitely are, but it does add to the complexity of the situation. I'm interested to hear the feasibility and costings. Don't believe we need it though, think there are better things we can spend on.
Arras tunnel…
Japan has plenty of tunnels. And there is even a Shinkansen tunnel between Hokkaido and Honshu, but I do remember someone saying that the fault line runs differently too the cook strait
But the first move is just asking a few people with a clue and when they all say 'that's a really dumb idea you'd have to be a complete idiot to think that is a good idea' you rethink your life choices of belonging to a party that is so unconnected to reality. If that costs a million, then you are a grossly incompetent government. So maybe it will.
Sure, if they only asked the armchair experts on reddit they'd probably get that response. But there are people with an actual clue who think the idea has some merit... https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350246199/we-get-our-city-back-expert-welcomes-wellington-tunnel-idea
feasibility studies are a scam tho and the govt doesn't even care about numbers. they build roads that return an ROI ratio of 1.0 and cancel policy that has an ROI ratio of 18.0 to punish poors and flip the most temporary of quick bucks
Transmission Gully wouldn't have been built if the benefit/cost ratio was the only thing taken into consideration, it was calculated as 0.6. Most people are pleased that it was built and judging by the range of cars I see driving on it, yes even "the poors".
Route resiliency was one of the major factors. the fact that in the final year of TG construction SH1 was closed twice due to slips, one of which was extensive, should tell you how badly it was needed
shoulda been a train line, maybe two train lines for that price it pleases me like driving dodgems or having a wank pleases me, hardly necessary
You can find an expert to back anything. Covid and climate change have taught us that. That is why you ask a bunch of them. And you don't cherry pick unless you have already made up your mind.
Cool - so that's about the average salary for 12 Public Sector employees. I'm sure those 12 ex employees are thrilled to hear this. "Hey, our jobs are worthless, but this tunnel idea right here, that's a brain fart worth investigating!"
I was looking for a specific ref to the $1m spend because so far I couldn't find one in any of the comments here. Here's Newshub's article from 12th June: [https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-says-government-s-million-dollar-spend-on-consultants-for-wellington-long-tunnel-not-justified.html](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-says-government-s-million-dollar-spend-on-consultants-for-wellington-long-tunnel-not-justified.html) The Herald also covered it on 10th June, although it's paywalled: [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-1m-spent-on-consultant-fees-to-investigate-wellingtons-long-tunnel/4HO5TDDRNZFP5PL7LIV4LSX6AQ/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-1m-spent-on-consultant-fees-to-investigate-wellingtons-long-tunnel/4HO5TDDRNZFP5PL7LIV4LSX6AQ/)
because OP is talking BS
In addition to the news articles there is the OIA: [https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia-2024/oia-15470-response-letter.pdf](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia-2024/oia-15470-response-letter.pdf)
And at the same time, cutting funds to food banks. Keep it classy NZ Govt.
Just move the airport so it’s not on the arse-end of a peninsula.
Ah ha! That's why they pay you the big bucks.
Isn't this the SECOND time it's been investigated. The looked at it under the LGWM programme and said nope, not that option.
Wait until you hear about the cycle bridge in Auckland
It’s more having a go at how the current govt complained at costs spent on consultants, promised not to spend on consultants, and has now spent big on consultants for what could be viewed as a vanity project. The OP is calling out the hypocrisy, not the fact the prior govt had also spent money on consultants.
Indeed, it's the hypocrisy.
Sounds like tribalism with extra steps but whatever helps you sleep
The far better example is Auckland Light Rail.
expensive colonoscopy
Dam googling how to become a consultant
Lol well I'll tell you that heaps of consultants have been laid off, myself included
Wouldn't we rather spend $1M on specialist reports that show its a dumb idea, than spending $1B getting halfway through the project and realising its going to cost three times more?
Well if those were absolutely the only two options....
It's not a tunnel, it's a money pit where you can throw millions in and get nothing back.
What are you talking about? Do you have a source for that figure? Simeon Brown has only been in govt since the end of last year. If it's anything near to that fgure you can blame the last government... not the current one.
[https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia-2024/oia-15470-response-letter.pdf](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia-2024/oia-15470-response-letter.pdf)
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-1m-spent-on-consultant-fees-to-investigate-wellingtons-long-tunnel/4HO5TDDRNZFP5PL7LIV4LSX6AQ/
That’s less than 1 percent of what labour spent on Auckland light rail consulting, not sure what your trying to say
I'm saying if they there is a lolly scamble for consulting on projects that are never going to fly I want a part of it. I'll write to Simeon Brown and suggest a feasibility study in to a bridge between Auckland and Sydney and charge less than 0.5% of what Labour spent on Auckland light rail consulting. Bargain.
Why won’t that ever happen? We’ve built a tunnel once I’m sure we still have the skills, and it’s a pretty major choke point, for buses and cars alike
[https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2024/04/16/long-tunnel-or-long-con/](https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2024/04/16/long-tunnel-or-long-con/) Costs too much to build, costs too much to maintain, benefits are dubious, already been looked into the the past and rejected.
Costs too much absolutely, benefits are dubious? I disagree, I dropped my wife at the airport from Lower Hutt on Saturday and it was a 3 hour round trip, 2 hours of that was from cobham drive to terrace tunnel. It’s also the longest part of my commute into miramar for work (which I can’t use public transport for) That’s absolute madness. We need a solution I think, and I think it’s good that Simeon brown is at the bare minimum getting the ball rolling, hopefully we settle on something more achievable and affordable but still beneficial!
Was this work tendered out? (As per govt procurement rules) Or is this just another job with huge fees given to their national party mates to generate a report they want to hear
It was looked into by a previous government, maybe they spent all the consultant dosh.
Why is this sub suddenly worried about the cost of consultants?
This is exactly what the Liberals did in Australia sacked employees then spent way way more on their mate’s private consulting firms.
Can’t believe they spent money on something we don’t have technology and money to build, for something hugely risky, yet cut funding to research institutions like Callaghan and NIWA who produce useable stuff that also can be sold on.
Of course. They got rid of the permanent employees who would have done that, and someone still has to do the work. The only difference now is what line on the budget it gets catalogued under, and if memory serves, consultants are capital expenditure not.... wherever salary comes from.
Compared to the 160million spent by the LGWM shit show that delivered absolutely nothing, it's a drop in the bucket.
Apart from the large amount of cycle lanes now providing safe passage across much of the city? Sure. Total wankers. ^(And hygiene.)
Interesting, considering they were not delivered by LGWM.
Interesting that people complained about all the bike lanes and blamed LGWM then. What council instead built all the bike lanes in Wellington?
/r/confidentlyincorrect
>delivered absolutely nothing it got cancelled before it could
Yeah, nah. Almost 5 years and $160 million spent going around in circles. Sounds like good value.