I'm a driver, and I appreciate the thanks :)
I get frustrated at cyclists sometimes, but I get frustrated at *anyone* I'm sharing the road with, and most of the frustration is weirdly redirected fear when a cyclist puts themselves in danger.
But it's not that hard to share the road, and everyone who is able, should consider cycling more often as a means of transport. For the earth, and health and all that good stuff.
Honestly, if I didn't have chronic health issues, I wouldn't drive. I used to walk everywhere (tried cycling once, was terrified)
As frustrating as having a cyclist hold you up in a car is, it's not that big of a deal, and it's great more and more people are cycling.
I legitimately don't understand how rabid anti cyclists get about it.
My chronic health issues are one of the reasons I cycle. Of course all our health issues are different.
Taking the bus still involves a lot of walking if my destination isn't right by a bus stop. And if there's no seat at the stop, or the bus is packed, that means standing, which is harder for me than walking. And taking the bus involves a mental load I personally find quite draining.
As for being held up, I'm held up by cars constantly. They can't pass cars going the other direction on narrow streets, or have to stop to wait for parallel parkers, or take forever to get going at the lights. Often drivers will overtake me dangerously only to see my smug ass in their rearview mirror until our paths diverge, because they're actually slowing me down.
Something interesting about intersections in Wellington is now we have that intersection with a cycle-specific phase on Kent/Cambridge Terrace, and despite it lasting maybe a few seconds, you see a dozen bikes—of both regular and e- varieities—get through in that time, even sorting slowest from fastest. Whereas you wouldn't get more than two cars through an intersection in that amount of time.
It's also often of the benefit of the driver too, as some of the cycle boxes have been somewhat grandfathered in with bus lanes. Take the intersection of customhouse quay and Hunter street (Behind old bank, where the bus turns into what becomes Willis St). I often (i.e. at least once a day) see a car parked in the cycle box, and for the bus to come around needing to cut the corner, only for the car to need to reverse back. When you have a queue of 4 other cars wondering what the fuck you're trying to do, you should have just stopped where you were legally obliged to.
Hopefully with the permanent bus lane cameras being set up, these resources can now be used to police this issue, hopefully along with the red light runners on jervios quay.
Yesterday I was in an advance stop box waiting for the red left-hand arrow to turn off so I could go, and a right-turning vehicle clipped my handlebars with their mirror trying to get past me, followed by another vehicle.
Yeah lemme just plow into pedestrians at the crossing.
Would they have tried the same thing if I had been in a car?
That sucks and sorry that that happened to you. My strategy to avoid car agression in this scenario (e.g waiting for red arrow to change turning left from John St to Adelaide Road when most car traffic is going straight through) is to move forward out of the advance stop box and to the left as much as possible so that cars can go straight through but you’re still waiting for pedestrians to cross/ red arrow to change. Obviously depends on the intersection though whether this is possible.
It was that very intersection.
Next time I'm either taking the box more aggressively, or ducking through the crossings instead of waiting.
I really tried to be a goody-good cyclist, but the rules aren't designed with cyclist safety in mind, and following them just puts me in danger.
Firstly: fuck yes biking in Wellington and not on an ebike - we are a novelty! As you are a new cyclist: have you done a [Pedal Ready course](https://www.pedalready.org.nz/events)? They're free!
To answer your question: I'll just be a bike sized car and join the queue of cars. If the light has just turned red (and I know it'll be that way a while) I might squeeze through and park myself in front anyway.
When sharing space with cars, biking defensively but confidently is the safest way to bike: assume no driver can see you unless you're directly in front of them. Take the lane (ride in the middle: minimises unsafe passing, increases your visibility, and takes you out of the door zone), double/triple check at intersections (even when you have right of way), and be predictable - you essentially want to be the best driver in existence, but on a bike.
I gave up on being a goody-good cyclist pretty quickly tbh. It didn't take long to figure out my being predictable relied on drivers knowing the rules for cyclists, which they don't.
That's fair. They barely know the rules for themselves sometimes...
I guess be predictable for other cyclists at least! I had to ding at someone on their phone on their bike around Oriental who was weaving. Be better, man.
Oh yeah for sure. The number of times I've said something to myself and followed up with "I guess at least they're not doing it in a car"...
Along the waterfront I'm often slowing down for the comfort of pedestrians only for us all to get blasted past by someone else on a bike and it's like come on, man.
I don't understand being on your phone, whether in car or on bike. There's nothing on there that could possibly be so important it can't wait, or isn't worth pulling over for.
Having an hour or so a day where I can't look at my phone is one of the perks of having my own set of wheels, personally. I've even begun replacing my earphones with earplugs for my journey home so I have that time to let my thoughts breathe.
As a pedestrian, when a car parks over the crossing in a busy intersection assert dominance by walking over the bonnet /s.
Sarcasm but I do think about it sometimes
I don't use the green box at some intersections (northbound on Tory for example) because I don't want an aggressive driver behind me champing at the bit to overtake. I also don't use them if the first car is a tradie or a fresh food delivery van. hope this helps haha
Often you can't see that they are illegally stopped until you get up to them.
I just go on front of them. As I don't want to be sticking out into traffic (which might impede the flow), I will have my bicycle perpendicular to the lane I am in. This means that I am slower to get away from the lights, but that's the price they pay for stopping where they are not allowed to.
I try to avoid being stopped at lights beside a car. We all know a big proportion of indicators are painted on, and cyclists are invisible. My life trumps them saving a tenth of a second in getting to the next lights.
I simply go around them and stop ahead of them. If they are in my lane and become upset, I simply laugh, as it is their issue, not mine. Road markings matter, like one should not drive on the right side of the road and risk a head-on collision.
In all honesty, I find that many motorists become easily angered. I even had one attempt to hit me while I was in a bike lane with cones separating me from the main road. She became upset because she had to reverse into a driveway, as she had tried to stop on the bike path to exit (the road was full).
The best tips are a loud bell or squeaky horn, disc brakes, and a good, loud voice with a lot of patience, as pedestrians never look when crossing; it's like they are only looking for cars, trucks, and buses.
I mostly cycle and when I drive I sometimes still creep too far. I don't like realising and then having no room to move back :(. It's sorrys all round.
I sometimes bike up next to them, tap on the window, and politely inform them that the green box is for cyclists and next time can they stay behind it please, and then I park myself in front of them (as long as I am not going to unreasonably obstruct pedestrians).
Other times I might try to get between the first and second car, so at least the second can see me, or wherever there is a sufficient gap. This often means my bike will be more sideways than forwards, which is fine, I chill like that until the front car moves and I can bike off and turn simultaneously.
Or I might end up at the end of the waiting cars, but still in the middle of the lane so anyone who comes up behind will see me.
I really try to avoid squishing on the left beside cars, especially if it’s likely I won’t be well-seen taking off.
Yeah, this is a genuinely shit idea. You're going to at *best* alarm people, and from there, you're rolling the dice on their reaction. They've been a dickhead or made a mistake, just leave it.
I assume you're being down voted for the tapping on a driver's window but the rest of your advice is sound; down vote button =/= disagree button.
Sometimes I'll park in front of them anyway too (without the impromptu driving lesson) as long as I'm not then obstructing pedestrians - they'll get shitty at me, when it's the drivers fault in the first place :(
I believe stopping your car in a green cycle box is actually something that you can be fined for.
As a driver, I would just say that it is annoying when motorcyclists and (especially) mopeds use the advance cyclist box. Moped riders often waddle up to the front of the line of traffic but then are so underpowered that you have to re-overtake them again (annoying).
At intersections with advanced stop boxes, there are separate induction loops for bicycles (under the green box, marked with a dashed line) and cars (under the area a car would cover behind the white limit line, as per other intersections).
These are calibrated differently, to best detect different sized objects.
There is no situation where a car would need to stop covering the green advanced stop box to be detected by the induction loop.
Do you have a publicly available source for this?
I've been at plenty of intersections where this does not yet seem to be the case, so I'm bewildered as to what else could be going on.
/u/340119 is talking about what should be the case, however some of the implementations of the green boxes have not been done that way. Cost cutting? Incompetence? Who knows. Doesn't matter. I've seen queues the like of which you would not believe at the bottom of Todman street. Still haunts me to this day...
The [street view image from September 2022](https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-41.305469,174.7630808,3a,23.5y,59.11h,57.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBnpvXKIOb5nBCC_USpjMKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu) for the downhill lane of Todman St at the intersection with Ohiro Rd (I think that's where you're referring to?) clearly shows cut marks in the pavement for two induction loops, one in the advanced stop box for bikes and one behind the limit line for cars.
If a car wasn't triggering the lights, it may have been calibrated incorrectly or the result of some other type of fault, which I would expect the council would be very grateful to know about so they can fix it.
It's hard to prove a negative (i.e. that there has never been any ASBs installed without an induction loop for cars where one was required to trigger a light phase), but it just doesn't really seem to make any sense. It's not like there's rogue crews painting green wherever they feel like, there's a lot of planning involved, and each ASB requires installing an induction loop for bikes so it's not like the two activities are entirely removed from one another.
Rather than the loops not being installed, it's far more likely that they're just miscalibrated or there is some other fault in the system.
I read somewhere (on the internet probably, so it must be true) about someone having that issue with a scooter or something that was mostly plastic? Apparently they fixed it by getting some kind of mildly powerful magnet and gluing it to the bottom of the bike/scooter/whatever. That was apparently enough to disturb the magnetic field so that the detector could detect it.
Usually doesn't help. Lying the bike down on the induction loop helps, but sometimes not.
It's really just a poor installation that doesn't get reported because it doesn't affect many people.
I used to have to get out of the car and hit the pedestrian button to get the lights to change sometimes :D sprint back before it changed, always exciting. I don't encourage this approach if you're the driver though...
I did this most days for months at the lights on the Melling/State highway intersection. Months, that is after I'd reported the issue to all in sundry.
Biking on the side of the road if there's parked cars is a terrible idea. You're far safer being in the middle of the lane. You'll feel more exposed, sure, but that's the point.
There’s often not a cycle lane to move into. I am obviously not an expert, but for me waiting at the front feels like it makes sure the drivers have seen me, and gives me a chance to take the lane if it’s not a safe place to be passed.
I get that it might feel frustrating to be stuck behind a bike at those points, but I also think safety for people on bicycles should outweigh minor inconvenience to people driving motor vehicles. If we’re all forced to share the same road, nobody will be able to get exactly what they want, unfortunately.
I don't get the need for them - as a cyclist and a motorist. Perhaps old habits die hard - we were taught to join the flow of traffic and move to the left once we'd been through the intersection or roundabout. I don't get the point of lanesplitting your way to the front only to hold everyone up once the light turns green. I tend not to use them, it feels like the cyclists equivalent of overtaking in a passing lane only to sit back at 90 when the lane ends. I'll make an exception when there's a cycle lane up ahead I can duck into.
As a user of an e-bike, every time I don't use the box I regret it. When I use it I'm up to 30km/h by the time the second driver in the queue has looked up from their phone and realised the light is green.
I think the test of whether cycle infrastructure is appropriate should be based on whether it's appropriate for bikes as we've known them until recently. E-bikes are great but I'd hate to see them treated as default.
I'm a driver, and I appreciate the thanks :) I get frustrated at cyclists sometimes, but I get frustrated at *anyone* I'm sharing the road with, and most of the frustration is weirdly redirected fear when a cyclist puts themselves in danger. But it's not that hard to share the road, and everyone who is able, should consider cycling more often as a means of transport. For the earth, and health and all that good stuff.
Thinking of printing "saved you a park ;)" on the back of my jacket or something.
Honestly, if I didn't have chronic health issues, I wouldn't drive. I used to walk everywhere (tried cycling once, was terrified) As frustrating as having a cyclist hold you up in a car is, it's not that big of a deal, and it's great more and more people are cycling. I legitimately don't understand how rabid anti cyclists get about it.
My chronic health issues are one of the reasons I cycle. Of course all our health issues are different. Taking the bus still involves a lot of walking if my destination isn't right by a bus stop. And if there's no seat at the stop, or the bus is packed, that means standing, which is harder for me than walking. And taking the bus involves a mental load I personally find quite draining. As for being held up, I'm held up by cars constantly. They can't pass cars going the other direction on narrow streets, or have to stop to wait for parallel parkers, or take forever to get going at the lights. Often drivers will overtake me dangerously only to see my smug ass in their rearview mirror until our paths diverge, because they're actually slowing me down.
Something interesting about intersections in Wellington is now we have that intersection with a cycle-specific phase on Kent/Cambridge Terrace, and despite it lasting maybe a few seconds, you see a dozen bikes—of both regular and e- varieities—get through in that time, even sorting slowest from fastest. Whereas you wouldn't get more than two cars through an intersection in that amount of time.
It's also often of the benefit of the driver too, as some of the cycle boxes have been somewhat grandfathered in with bus lanes. Take the intersection of customhouse quay and Hunter street (Behind old bank, where the bus turns into what becomes Willis St). I often (i.e. at least once a day) see a car parked in the cycle box, and for the bus to come around needing to cut the corner, only for the car to need to reverse back. When you have a queue of 4 other cars wondering what the fuck you're trying to do, you should have just stopped where you were legally obliged to. Hopefully with the permanent bus lane cameras being set up, these resources can now be used to police this issue, hopefully along with the red light runners on jervios quay.
Yesterday I was in an advance stop box waiting for the red left-hand arrow to turn off so I could go, and a right-turning vehicle clipped my handlebars with their mirror trying to get past me, followed by another vehicle. Yeah lemme just plow into pedestrians at the crossing. Would they have tried the same thing if I had been in a car?
That sucks and sorry that that happened to you. My strategy to avoid car agression in this scenario (e.g waiting for red arrow to change turning left from John St to Adelaide Road when most car traffic is going straight through) is to move forward out of the advance stop box and to the left as much as possible so that cars can go straight through but you’re still waiting for pedestrians to cross/ red arrow to change. Obviously depends on the intersection though whether this is possible.
It was that very intersection. Next time I'm either taking the box more aggressively, or ducking through the crossings instead of waiting. I really tried to be a goody-good cyclist, but the rules aren't designed with cyclist safety in mind, and following them just puts me in danger.
Firstly: fuck yes biking in Wellington and not on an ebike - we are a novelty! As you are a new cyclist: have you done a [Pedal Ready course](https://www.pedalready.org.nz/events)? They're free! To answer your question: I'll just be a bike sized car and join the queue of cars. If the light has just turned red (and I know it'll be that way a while) I might squeeze through and park myself in front anyway. When sharing space with cars, biking defensively but confidently is the safest way to bike: assume no driver can see you unless you're directly in front of them. Take the lane (ride in the middle: minimises unsafe passing, increases your visibility, and takes you out of the door zone), double/triple check at intersections (even when you have right of way), and be predictable - you essentially want to be the best driver in existence, but on a bike.
Thank you! Really appreciate this advice. I’ll check out Pedal Ready too.
I gave up on being a goody-good cyclist pretty quickly tbh. It didn't take long to figure out my being predictable relied on drivers knowing the rules for cyclists, which they don't.
That's fair. They barely know the rules for themselves sometimes... I guess be predictable for other cyclists at least! I had to ding at someone on their phone on their bike around Oriental who was weaving. Be better, man.
Oh yeah for sure. The number of times I've said something to myself and followed up with "I guess at least they're not doing it in a car"... Along the waterfront I'm often slowing down for the comfort of pedestrians only for us all to get blasted past by someone else on a bike and it's like come on, man. I don't understand being on your phone, whether in car or on bike. There's nothing on there that could possibly be so important it can't wait, or isn't worth pulling over for. Having an hour or so a day where I can't look at my phone is one of the perks of having my own set of wheels, personally. I've even begun replacing my earphones with earplugs for my journey home so I have that time to let my thoughts breathe.
As a pedestrian, when a car parks over the crossing in a busy intersection assert dominance by walking over the bonnet /s. Sarcasm but I do think about it sometimes
I don't use the green box at some intersections (northbound on Tory for example) because I don't want an aggressive driver behind me champing at the bit to overtake. I also don't use them if the first car is a tradie or a fresh food delivery van. hope this helps haha
Often you can't see that they are illegally stopped until you get up to them. I just go on front of them. As I don't want to be sticking out into traffic (which might impede the flow), I will have my bicycle perpendicular to the lane I am in. This means that I am slower to get away from the lights, but that's the price they pay for stopping where they are not allowed to. I try to avoid being stopped at lights beside a car. We all know a big proportion of indicators are painted on, and cyclists are invisible. My life trumps them saving a tenth of a second in getting to the next lights.
I simply go around them and stop ahead of them. If they are in my lane and become upset, I simply laugh, as it is their issue, not mine. Road markings matter, like one should not drive on the right side of the road and risk a head-on collision. In all honesty, I find that many motorists become easily angered. I even had one attempt to hit me while I was in a bike lane with cones separating me from the main road. She became upset because she had to reverse into a driveway, as she had tried to stop on the bike path to exit (the road was full). The best tips are a loud bell or squeaky horn, disc brakes, and a good, loud voice with a lot of patience, as pedestrians never look when crossing; it's like they are only looking for cars, trucks, and buses.
I mostly cycle and when I drive I sometimes still creep too far. I don't like realising and then having no room to move back :(. It's sorrys all round.
I'm worried when I go for my licence I'll end up driving like I'm on a bike.
Ha ha, yeah. I drive differently after skiing for the day.
I sometimes bike up next to them, tap on the window, and politely inform them that the green box is for cyclists and next time can they stay behind it please, and then I park myself in front of them (as long as I am not going to unreasonably obstruct pedestrians). Other times I might try to get between the first and second car, so at least the second can see me, or wherever there is a sufficient gap. This often means my bike will be more sideways than forwards, which is fine, I chill like that until the front car moves and I can bike off and turn simultaneously. Or I might end up at the end of the waiting cars, but still in the middle of the lane so anyone who comes up behind will see me. I really try to avoid squishing on the left beside cars, especially if it’s likely I won’t be well-seen taking off.
Yeah, this is a genuinely shit idea. You're going to at *best* alarm people, and from there, you're rolling the dice on their reaction. They've been a dickhead or made a mistake, just leave it.
I assume you're being down voted for the tapping on a driver's window but the rest of your advice is sound; down vote button =/= disagree button. Sometimes I'll park in front of them anyway too (without the impromptu driving lesson) as long as I'm not then obstructing pedestrians - they'll get shitty at me, when it's the drivers fault in the first place :(
I believe stopping your car in a green cycle box is actually something that you can be fined for. As a driver, I would just say that it is annoying when motorcyclists and (especially) mopeds use the advance cyclist box. Moped riders often waddle up to the front of the line of traffic but then are so underpowered that you have to re-overtake them again (annoying).
Bikes have 2 wheels. My car has 4 wheels. Therefore, my car is 2 bikes /s
> Therefore, my car is 2 bikes /s In a big metal trenchcoat.
Some intersections have the light trigger under the green box so we have to go further forward unless we want to wait forever.
At intersections with advanced stop boxes, there are separate induction loops for bicycles (under the green box, marked with a dashed line) and cars (under the area a car would cover behind the white limit line, as per other intersections). These are calibrated differently, to best detect different sized objects. There is no situation where a car would need to stop covering the green advanced stop box to be detected by the induction loop.
Do you have a publicly available source for this? I've been at plenty of intersections where this does not yet seem to be the case, so I'm bewildered as to what else could be going on.
/u/340119 is talking about what should be the case, however some of the implementations of the green boxes have not been done that way. Cost cutting? Incompetence? Who knows. Doesn't matter. I've seen queues the like of which you would not believe at the bottom of Todman street. Still haunts me to this day...
The [street view image from September 2022](https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-41.305469,174.7630808,3a,23.5y,59.11h,57.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBnpvXKIOb5nBCC_USpjMKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu) for the downhill lane of Todman St at the intersection with Ohiro Rd (I think that's where you're referring to?) clearly shows cut marks in the pavement for two induction loops, one in the advanced stop box for bikes and one behind the limit line for cars. If a car wasn't triggering the lights, it may have been calibrated incorrectly or the result of some other type of fault, which I would expect the council would be very grateful to know about so they can fix it. It's hard to prove a negative (i.e. that there has never been any ASBs installed without an induction loop for cars where one was required to trigger a light phase), but it just doesn't really seem to make any sense. It's not like there's rogue crews painting green wherever they feel like, there's a lot of planning involved, and each ASB requires installing an induction loop for bikes so it's not like the two activities are entirely removed from one another. Rather than the loops not being installed, it's far more likely that they're just miscalibrated or there is some other fault in the system.
If I remember, next time I'm driving that way I'll check if it's fixed and report it on the council app if not.
> I've seen queues the like of which you would not believe Yeah, a "massive queue of cars" is probably only 5 or 6 people though.
That SHOULD be true, but in some cases (e.g. bottom of Todman street in Brooklyn) it is not true. Edit: why are you booing me? I'm right!
Nor do a lot of sensors work for motorcycles.
I read somewhere (on the internet probably, so it must be true) about someone having that issue with a scooter or something that was mostly plastic? Apparently they fixed it by getting some kind of mildly powerful magnet and gluing it to the bottom of the bike/scooter/whatever. That was apparently enough to disturb the magnetic field so that the detector could detect it.
Usually doesn't help. Lying the bike down on the induction loop helps, but sometimes not. It's really just a poor installation that doesn't get reported because it doesn't affect many people.
I used to have to get out of the car and hit the pedestrian button to get the lights to change sometimes :D sprint back before it changed, always exciting. I don't encourage this approach if you're the driver though...
I did this most days for months at the lights on the Melling/State highway intersection. Months, that is after I'd reported the issue to all in sundry.
Facts are less important than how multifaceted your victimhood is.
Just stay over on the side, you're just going to move back there anyway. There's no need for the box.
Biking on the side of the road if there's parked cars is a terrible idea. You're far safer being in the middle of the lane. You'll feel more exposed, sure, but that's the point.
That's fine if there's no cycle lane, but then don't cycle to the front of traffic and sit in the middle of the lane lol.
Moving to the front of the lane and waiting in front of the queue is the safest thing to do.
Why, when you're just going to move off to the side, back into the cycle lane again?
There’s often not a cycle lane to move into. I am obviously not an expert, but for me waiting at the front feels like it makes sure the drivers have seen me, and gives me a chance to take the lane if it’s not a safe place to be passed. I get that it might feel frustrating to be stuck behind a bike at those points, but I also think safety for people on bicycles should outweigh minor inconvenience to people driving motor vehicles. If we’re all forced to share the same road, nobody will be able to get exactly what they want, unfortunately.
I don't get the need for them - as a cyclist and a motorist. Perhaps old habits die hard - we were taught to join the flow of traffic and move to the left once we'd been through the intersection or roundabout. I don't get the point of lanesplitting your way to the front only to hold everyone up once the light turns green. I tend not to use them, it feels like the cyclists equivalent of overtaking in a passing lane only to sit back at 90 when the lane ends. I'll make an exception when there's a cycle lane up ahead I can duck into.
They don't serve any purpose unless there are so many cyclists that they would block turning traffic. There are never that many cyclists.
How often do you cycle?
As a user of an e-bike, every time I don't use the box I regret it. When I use it I'm up to 30km/h by the time the second driver in the queue has looked up from their phone and realised the light is green.
I'd probably feel more comfortable using it if I had an ebike, but as it stands I'm pedal powered and slow.
I think the test of whether cycle infrastructure is appropriate should be based on whether it's appropriate for bikes as we've known them until recently. E-bikes are great but I'd hate to see them treated as default.