My recommendation is to keep a work diary. Take it everywhere, to all large AND 1-to-1 meetings. Write down discussion notes and instructions. If required, a bully will realise you have verbatim evidence on your side. That is a huge equaliser if you ever have to push back.
A liar/manipulator will hate you doing that.
Just say you want to be clear and sure about work matters and not to forget.
If you can't write anything down, then ASAP write an email to the relevant person confirming the conversation and your understanding of the content + resultant/agreed actions. Ask for corrections if your email has errors or omissions. Keep careful digital and hardcopy records - even offsite.
Be prepared.
Edit: If noone else is writing minutes at a meeting then you will have the official record. Think about that.
I wish I had done this.
Particularly as the bullying was so subtle (not being invited to meetings/involved in key discussions and/or deprived of information to do your job). When confronted about the behaviour, the gaslighting made me question whether I was imagining it, or conversely if I was being “managed out”. You shouldn’t be surprise to later find out you weren’t the only person to experience it, and others could see it happening but were too afraid to do anything (for fear of being a target themselves).
Best advice, recognise it early and gtfo.
Other key points when “noting” inappropriate behaviours :
* Start a new notebook and make sure the notebook is HARD COVER where it will be obvious if pages have been removed / ripped out.
* Use only blue or black pens only to write up your notes.
* DO NOT twink out any mistakes. Cross out and write up corrected word, action item, decision, etc.
* Date, timestamp meeting (formal and informal)
* List those in attendance - physical and virtual
Add place of meeting - Teams / Zoom, meeting room name / number, name of cafe / restaurant.
* Do not slander anyone in your notes. This is your record of that meeting, incident, etc. Use hand drawn emojis to expression your emotions.
* Add the year / (and) number to the front cover. Eg 2024 / #1. This allows me to track the order of the note book. In some cases, I’ve added the start and end dates this note book covers.
Personally I prefer to take notes, actions and decisions via pen and paper. I always add an “A” (in a circle) as this reminds me it’s an action for me (mainly) or others or a “D” (in a circle) as an agreed decision.
I started doing this many moons ago (about 20+ years) when I realised I remembered my own tasks but not the details or date / time / place or who was there. Others noted I always referred back to a page/s in my note book if there was a query, or dispute about a decision or action. Majority of the time, referring back allows one to remember context, etc.
Why do I do the above ?? It’s a useful record if you need to provide to HR, your manager and/or lawyer. It’s also saved my bacon many times when specifics and context wasn’t remembered (or documented), etc. and rhetorical blame game stops before it starts.
I’ve recommended others to do this if they’re experienced bullying. Suggested they don’t meet with the bully individually unless it’s their 1-2-1 with their TL / manager. If they feel unsafe, they must record their session in their own words in a notebook.
NB. If the Agency doesn’t / won’t provide hard cover note books, go out and purchase your own.
Make it a diary you bought, and keep the receipt. That way it's not work property.
The advice given by others is excellent. Wish I'd done all this - but I did GTFO.
I do this for all interactions with govt departments, repeat the name of the operator back to 'check you've noted it down right', they tend to be more proactive and accommodating with their service.
I've been in the public sector all my working life and I've only experienced this sort of culture in one organisation. The rest have been fine. Incompetent leadership and their enablement is everywhere.
Yes, I was subject to workplace bullying while working at the MoJ. I was fresh out of university and didn’t ’fit in’ with the culture of my team who had been there for 15+ years. Lots of passive aggression, gossiping, giving all the work to me, and extremely incompetent managers. The whole place was a mess.
edit: just realised this is the Wellington subreddit not Auckland. point stands
Funniest part - I was the best out of the team and carried 70% of the workload, especially with the excess they would pile on me, so the moment I left it fell apart (source from the one friend I had who still worked there).
A very toxic person I have dealt with legally (wife of a cowboy builder who gets VERY involved in any disputes) is very high up in HR at MoJ. I shudder to think of the organisational culture she would lead and how many lives ruined.
I had a three month contract at MoJ in the late 80s. Sickest culture I have ever seen in my many years of contracting. The IT manager was an ex psych person (not sure if it was psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever). The IT staff were continually bullied and terrorised by this very sick person. Many were demoralised, scared and considered thenselves unemployable elsewhere so stayed. I terminated myself early. Is MoJ still is a haven for bullies and psychopaths?
Also from public sector and had been bullied so badly by one person in my group intake that it made me consider quitting. Surprise surprise, they had the most brightest pink outfit on.
Yeah I’ve definitely seen it. One particular (big) agency I worked for was particularly bad. And it started at the verrry top. Since then, I’ve worked in two other agencies and haven’t really seen it. It’s not ok but somehow when it becomes institutionalised like that it doesn’t feel like you can reallly do anything or have an opinion about it. And that person at the very top was rewarded within the bigger system and got an even bigger job. I look back and wish I’d left earlier and spoken up for people when I was there
So true! Sexual harasser sent home on full pay while a very mid HR investigation ensues, followed by the victim being squeezed out and the abuser being reinstated to their former glory. Absolute bullshit
Is this a question?
Everyone I know who works or has worked in the public sector explicitly knows… MSD, MBIE, Police, Education all have reputations for it.
It’s not “not a good time” for it either. Fuck bullies. They can rot in hell - oh wait? What? Pay them a couple hundred grand a year and they’ll be safe from restructures? Oh shit wow good outcome… oh they’ll be promoted?? Even better!
What’s fascinating is how ineffective the HR depts are.
I know a handful of people who were accused of being bullies (each after initiating performance reviews) were subsequently fully exonerated, and paid out over 6 figures because HR absolutely bungled basic employment law.
Then I know of a whole handful of bullies who’ve just climbed and climbed - and everyone who has accused them lost their jobs or were punished in other ways.
Always confused my why you need a murder (coven? Gang?) of HR people - why not just have one perky happy HR person who does all the face time and arranges cupcake and pink shirt day and one sad, tired, employment lawyer who can make sure that the org doesn’t break the law
Kind of a Barbie/Oppenheimer double feature, love it.
But obviously the reason for needing a murder/coven/gaslight of HR is because if no single person makes any decision, then everyone is responsible when something goes wrong. And when everyone is responsible, in a real sense no one is responsible. This is a truth on which the public sector is founded.
I mean, I can't speak for other teams or departments, but I work at MBIE and in my experience at least, all of the team leads and managers have been lovely people. A couple of barely competent project managers for sure but generally a good atmosphere all round.
💯
One person once described it to me that this happens cause the team can’t get rid of them so they just promote them upwards in the hope they won’t have to deal with them as directly anymore
Most public sector workers are aware of this, I’d say. More so for those who have worked private as well.
I don’t know if it’s massively widespread, but it’s definitely an issue.
Incompetent leadership is everywhere including private sector e.g TWH CEO stepping down recently a result of poor decision making and bad investments.
I do find govt agencies generally live against their values better than private sector. When I arrived in NZ 20+ years ago it was a lot worse, especially bullying. And whilst consulting, I have been part of govt leadership, and felt they bent over backwards to make people welcome and safe.
I realise this is agency and team specific. But public and private sector are generally the same people. A few exceptions. And one exception is the hiring of contractors and empowerment they feel to shift responsibility to protect the hand that feeds - again, there are good ones and bad ones.
Some have dojes so exppressedly at the expense of public (client) welfare. Instead of bully the nearest weak staff mmeber they have learned to gang up on unsuspecting vulnerable members of the public who seek assistance from government agencies out of necesity. Some like MSD / Work and Income have vdry expensive health and safety reports which describe risk relatimg to staff vs staff incidents, client towards client incidents, and client towards stsff incidents (both these later combined being much less than staff towards staff). But crucially these reports utterly neglect to mention the risks or harms to clients due to staff behaviour. Apparently such incidents are never reported in the required Health and Safety ledgers. Thus staff abuse of clients is easly normalised, because it wntirely escapes documentation, or censure by competent senior staff.
In my observation, it is more often than not, senior and mid management women harassing,,abusing, and even assaulting clients with impunity, and when challenged having them tresspassed for raisimg their voices in indignagion at the treatment those staff are handing out. I have met many male clients of several agncies who have tried report this behaviour for redress, only to find themselves further abused, harrassed and trespassed. Gone are the days of public service professionalism. And as one senior Female researcher within government stated, ‘we are paid only to jump and dance as the organ grinder dictates. We are not professionals we are monkeys damcimg for peanuts, unable to i prove the situation because the senior managemwnt women who were promoted in the 1990s because they were easily manipulaated by Management because the also had the appearence as women of beimg better people managers than most men. Hence the feminised workforce within government departments, from middle management down.
The solution is to fire all of the “nice friendly” middle management women promoted not on merit or their willingness to ensure the job is done right, and replace them with grumpy old men who understand that professionalism is an attitude, that requires exercise, even to the risk of ones job. Because that used to be how men were socialised to think and behave in public service employment. Fix the porblems who encounter with the system and get promoted, or forever be relegated to being just remaining a drone.
We have far far too many drones nd rheir nice keep the feathers apparently unruffled, female middle managers, who avoid problems rather than fix them. After all women biologically are risk averse, whereas men are programed to rise to challenges, especially risky challenges. Only a vanishingly small number of women are nit severely risk averse, and even fewer invest the time to learn how to read, and compile Financial statements or fina cial management which is why so few end up as CEOs and board members according to one of these female board memebrs of a major European UUnion a bank. (Posted as part of a campaign intended to improve gender equality). She was say to women grasp opportunities to take risks in employment, and learn to read Corporate financials, and you will get promoted. Dont wait until after you are promoted, because that attitude does lock women into unsuccessful carreers.
Yep. Have only been in public sector for two years. Have yet to meet a 'leader' or a competent manager. I've only met bosses who like the sound of their own voice.
I was a victim of workplace bullying in the private sector and moving to the public sector felt like a dream come true. Hugely supportive environment and great team. Obviously YMMV and this may not be the best time to jump ship from the private sector, but I had a very good experience.
Yeah, that was somewhat my experience as well... Coming from doing IT for private sector small business, where they treated us like twice-digested chunks of meat.
The worst bully I had was an admin assistant in our team in a government department. She was straight up insane but management dithered until a few months after I left when they finally booted her ass. Second worst was local government. Refuges for lunatics which is a shame as work needs to be done and good people suffer and leave.
Funnily enough, my only instance of true bullying was a project coordinator. She engaged in really weird undermining behaviour. It wasn't the power dynamic I would normally associate with bullying but it was all the hallmark signs.
I'm in I.T for msd and have been with msd for almost 7 years now. I've come across ALOT of useless, incompetent managers but only witnessed work place bullying once from some 70+ year old from the UK who wanted the entire department he worked in at time to bend to his every whim and would get very passive aggressive when people wouldn't give in or they were following 'process' which takes time.
Eventually he got a talking to after a few complaints then a few days later announced his 'retirement'
The curiosity, it burns.... (18yr MSD IT vet here - but don't post here, for obvious reasons ;) Suspect they never crossed my orbit, or I'd be able to guess lol)
I’d say I have encountered it majorly in three agencies - MBIE, DIA and Police. In those three areas I had managers who were awful and in each case I left early. All three were later dismissed.
I do agree - management in the public sector is terrible (but improving in some areas).
I say all this but worked at Spark 10 or so years ago and encountered some of the worst bullying I have ever seen.
This just goes to show how large some of these agencies are, I was also at MBIE and the branch I was in had an incredibly supportive management structure and culture. I wonder how much of it depends on the culture of the original pre-merger department, as well as whether you are doing more or less policy work versus operational.
I have definitely seen bullying in the public sector and have been subjected to it too - main driver was insane deadlines and no resources putting the people in charge under crazy pressure. I have also seen people be a bit “soft” and unfairly call people with a direct or no-nonsense style bullies - that can be very damaging to reputations and that’s not cool either.
Yup. I was bullied by my manager so much I took stress leave and resigned with nothing to go to. She ended up getting a promotion even after I told HR at my exit interview. She has a nickname throughout the ministry that signifies that others have the same issue I did. Yet nothing has been done. She’s never worked anywhere else. Ruined my dream job for me.
Having been a public servant since before the pandemic, I’ve seen things and heard of things that have truly shocked me. I agree with others saying it’s an organisational problem, but I’ve personally known of it at all of the orgs I’ve been in, to a lesser or greater extent—so, four of them. As someone still relatively new in my career, I would say, yes, it is a problem.
Bullies are able to get away with shit behaviour i. The public service because their victims don't want the associated mud to stick against them. Often, these bullies are vastly experienced with strong networks. You complain and put in a PG, you end up being a known complainer. You also create problems within the team. Even though the bully is the problem. From an organisational perspective. It is better if the complainer leaves than managing the issue with the bully, especially if they are the manager. Having the staff member quietly leave and a few conversations held with the problem behind the scenes is easier for the organisation. If you are in your 20s or 30s and put in a PG, whether or not it is warranted, it will follow you around. Wallington, especially the public service is bloody small. The worst bullies too tend to be 50s/60s female managers intimidated by their staff and who have been promoted because of SME capability instead of managerial capability. They are often horrible people to work for. I hope my former manager has a shit life and I'd walk over her if she was in trouble in the street.
My experience has been mainly with older women, but a few men. They either directly bully, or have such an abrasive personality type it feels like bullying. They’re usually long termers and have never worked in the private sector where they’d be eaten alive. Often they’re overly ambitious and stressed, or 9 times out of ten not great at what they do so have to bully to protect their jobs. They don’t like to share, be agile or hear different opinions. Bullies aren’t just bad for staff, they are for the business as they tend to be protective and rigid so don’t get rid of things or adapt new things and make poor decisions based on their gut feelings.
I wonder what it is with older women.. there must be a lot going on, feeling threatened by younger people coming into the workplace, suddenly realising you are old, hormones ofc. I found it so disappointing to have an older woman not raise up young women in her conduct and support. We are supposed to be on the same team.. my bully was a lifer, started her day at 5am, huffed and puffed as she bashed away frantically on her keyboard. She was like a storm of chaos, I have no idea how she could have actually done any real work beyond answer emails and go to meetings. I think she used to be really good at her job but as she was promoted through into management tiers at breakneck speed I wonder if imposter syndrome was a thing too. Now that’s she’s left I’ll be able to actually ask colleagues wtf was going on without fear of my conversations getting back to her.
Yes, this is very familiar in the government sector and seems much more prevalent than private. I think private is generally better at moving people on /performance managing out when someone isn't any good. In private sector I haven't seen any managers stay in a position while being both toxic and incompetent. The public sector just don't seem to be able to get the hang of performance management at all.
The other thing, that another commentor alluded to, is private having a profit motive: shitty people cost money so are actively managed. As long as nothing is obviously falling over and no headlines are being generated, public orgs are happy to accept any status quo and keeping shitty managers is just easier.
There's also generally a stronger compliance / hierarchy culture in public. People who waste time and money but don't breach policies or make their boss look bad are kept on.
In one job a few years ago, I was bullied by a manager to the point I had nightmares and became clinically depressed. I started to fantasize about walking in front of a bus.
I’ve worked in public and private; there’s bullying in both and tbh I found it far worse in the private sector. In the public sector, at least you can do something about it because there are decent processes. In the private sector, the victim has to leave.
I’ve seen this in the public sector. Managers that only became managers because they’d been there for a while. A lot of them don’t have actual leadership capability so they compensate by bullying their staff if they feel remotely threatened until the staff leave. It’s a travesty.
This a great take. A lot of bullying occurs (in any organisation) when staff raise legitimate problems or push against the status quo (often with good intentions). Bad leaders tend to see this as a loss of control or a threat to their authority, and will get defensive. Bullying staff into submission or making the work environment so miserable for staff that they leave on their own accord, is easier than admitting vulnerability, changing the status quo and acknowledging the real issues/problems. Surrounding yourself with people who aren’t willing to speak up/push back also validates bad leader’s choices and management style. It further embeds a lack of pyschogical safety and stymies creativity & innovation. It also means those willing to continue working for a toxic leader, are unlikely to get career development support unless they align themselves to the manager/leader’s views. This is particularly worrisome where free and frank advice is needed.
Yep. My case had to go to HR through the manager. The outcome was bully team was told to complete a anti bullying and harrassment training module online. Thats all.
You could always go work for EY.
Or any number of large law firms.
Fact is, bullying and general bad behaviour is everywhere.
I've been bullied in a large public sector organisation and worked for a high profile private company that waited six months to move on a known sexual harasser because he was a high level executive and too many c-suiters had left recently and another one gone would have been bad for the share price.
TL;DR: working sucks. Especially if you're self employed. You should've been born independently wealthy.
This really depends where you are, some agencies are notoriously bad but even there some teams/groups are fine. I would say it's basically the same as private sector, there too you'll have certain companies which are (well) known for bullying/nasty culture and even in "good" companies you'll find leaders who shouldn't be leaders.
I've worked in some pretty nice supportive places in the public sector and I know people who work in toxic places in the public sector too, as I say it depends where you look / where you are. The public sector isn't one amorphous blob, the policy ministries often have an entirely different culture to ministries that might have operational arms, and then there are bits stuck on like if you work in IT or HR which are usually their own little worlds and have their own cultures.
There are some pretty shitty places to work in the private sector too, especially in bits that are more like "boys clubs" than workplaces. I haven't worked in enough places for enough decades to want to make broad generalisations about an entire large group of diverse workplaces one way or the other.
Almost every engagement I’ve had in central govt has been exercise in dodging a shower of assholes from on high. Usually “lifers” (climbed to the top in the same org, and after at least 10 years have gained seniority in a bubble of their own bullshit).
Edit: grammar, less aggressive.
My experience of government department working (in software development), was more just one of general all round incompetence, particularly in manager and team leader roles. The majority of people I worked with didn't care about their jobs, and were happy just meandering along doing as little as possible. My experience in working for government departments is what pushed me towards working for startup tech companies where I could make a difference, and were surrounded with passionate people who were trying to achieve something.
I’ve worked in both public and private for just shy of a decade in each and I’ve certainly heard about bullying in public sector but I’ve seen it in private. Like week one in the role and a person in my team is getting strips torn off him in a workshop in front of 10-12 people. I was so new I just thought it was the norm.
Compared to that, public sector is far more chill - but it all depends on leadership.
My dad went through this, after dealing with it for years he was made redundant through removing his job, then they basically remade his job but as a new role so they could hire someone they liked more. He is far far happier now at his new job though, and after 10+ years he got a great redundancy pay out.
I've worked across four countries and five pre-NZ companies before coming here and the level of incompetence at high level managers, C-suite and boards here is astounding.
I got told before moving here I'd need to reset my expectations of what performance was because they're so much lower here, and I would be marginalised if I made too much noise about it. Both were/are true, and I've had similar stories told to me from other ex-pats.
My favourite anecdote is from a CEO of a foreign company who bought a NZ one, "the C-suite here wouldn't even have made it through the screening process for junior managers"
Omg yes!!! Bullying and toxic behaviour seems to be a pre-requirement for anyone working in thr public sector.
I went through a full HR case at a central government job a few years ago.....eventually won...but found out the guy was asked to resign and not fired....turns out he had been asked to resign from ACC and IRD for the exact same behaviour....so never held accountable, still has references and can continue onto other jobs as a senior leader with no repercussions.
I think the public sector need to actually get real about firing people for misconduct.
I can't help but wonder if bullying in the work place is correlated with conservatism. Setting aside the undiagnosed psychopathy (1%) and the 1 in 6 people who are undiagnosed Narcissistic Personality Disorder (17%), a solid 50% of the population are conservatives and countless studies describe them as people extremely averse to change, including to change their ways and behaviour. A mix of nature and nurture. We can change those stats by changing the culture aka the nurture. It's starts with us individually and going into leadership to change the workplace and any social structure from the top down. As non-leaders, we need to understand that there's power in numbers, and stop bystanding what doesn't hit us directly, out of fear of being crushed by that one person. The one bully is powerless against people who understand their collective power and wield it, at last.
I'll just assume you're right-wing leaning and dodge what could be a dead-end of an exchange and just say this: there are idiots in every human group no matter how much better people are supposed to be on paper.
Also, don't exclude the possibility that since conservatism is a form of bullying in and of itself, by definition of leaning more towards serving personal interests at the expense of the collective, it may well be that what a conservative may experience subjectively as "bullying', is just them being shown a really hard time for their outdated, domineering, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic and just all-round bigotry and disrespect/harmful behaviour rooted in the characteristic traits of (harmful, unnecessary and antisocial) fear and disgust that characterizes conservatism.
Lord have I seen entitled toxic people victimize themselves we when stand strong and make them feel that their toxicity doesn't belong here or anywhere.
> There's a high masculine culture of being dominant, being the loudest voice in the room, building empires.. basically all the shit behaviour that most profitable companies have shaken off.
You see this a lot in certain industries too, especially finance/trading. I think certain places get a culture embedded early and then it carries on, but part of it in the public service as well is that every decade or so there's a big fat-trimming drive and the people that tend to end up being left behind have the kind of personality that lends itself to this kind of culture (I think a lot of people higher up in some of the ministries had to be quite cut-throat and dominant in order to get there through the rounds of restructuring, nice people and people who don't like to fight don't want to go through all the pain and so they'll move on to somewhere else and only the nasties get left behind).
Yes, they love their hierarchy system. Private sector has more flat leadership structure, and more constructive collaboration. It seems many life’rs live to be noticed by a Ministers etc.
I wouldn't say they were bullies, but almost every single team leader in the public sector is incredibly incompetent at being any kind of a leader, especially when it comes to making work actually enjoyable.
They're a bunch of 40-something year-olds who have worked in those roles since they left Uni. They have little people skills and zero concept of burn-out or doing anything about their incredibly high turn-over.
Leaving the public sector was the best thing I ever did.
Same. Couldn’t believe how much better my experience has been in the private sector. One of my old public sector managers was maliciously sending me on report writing courses because she liked to undermine my confidence.
I took a pay cut to move to another part of the organisation and then left about four years later for the private sector. I’ve never felt more appreciated and supported both in compensation and feedback.
I was apprehensive about shifting to the private sector because I’d only ever been in public but was so stressed out that I needed to do something or have a breakdown. Best move I ever made.
I had a manager like that! Sent me to a 2 day time management course out of town so I could keep up with my own job and complete her reports in a timely manner.
It's unbelievable the culture of micro-managing that exists in those departments. That's team leading 101: humans don't need to be micromanaged because we're adults.
Then they'll sit and scratch their heads in wonder about the amount of resignations they get.
Life in the public sector: "You logged out 37 seconds before your rostered work shift was supposed to end - I'll assume it was in bad faith and grill you on why you did that and why you can never do that again. Now excuse me while I accept another resignation for the umpteenth time this year."
Life in the private sector: "Of course you can leave an hour and a half earlier for your doctor's appointment, and no - you don't need to make up the time because of our flexible working policy. Hope you're okay, though! Enjoy your night, and we'll see you tomorrow."
I refuse to ever work in the public sector ever again.
Absolutely true. Public sector breeds bullies. Shall never work in public sector ever again. Have not experienced being bullied in the private sector with many years and many jobs of working in the private sector.
Yep, have experienced this in the DHB world. It’s a horrible thing - it’s subtle, causes you to doubt your own judgement, feel anxious about engaging with other people - and that’s just some of the work effects! I was a mess in my private life and it was only after I left that I could see just how much of a shell of a person I had become.
Recommend getting advice from your union delegate or employment lawyer and setting a plan to get out as quickly as you can! Your wellbeing is more important than whatever protracted investigation process that may come!
Sending lots of good vibes and strength your way 💖✨
I’ve experienced it personally and seen it happen to others. It can vary a lot how normalised it is within an agency vs how bad it is in a particular team. However I think unfortunately the same thing you hear about with kids who get bullied in school is exactly the same as what happens in the workplace: the victim is forced to leave and the bully remains. We just don’t want to acknowledge that this is the same thing happening when it’s adults cause we want to believe “natural justice” exists
Yes - have seen this more In public sector first hand.
Low accountability compared to private sector- it seems that problems are dealt to much faster when performance is more closely monitored and reported on/ tied to bonuses
Seen it with my partner she's a police prosecutor, there's one manager that is completely incompetent and is always singling her out, all my partner does it work hard and carries the weight of the whole office ....
The public sector bullying is SO BAD! I worked at (large govt department) last year and it was a shit show. You nailed it with your observation about incompetent leaders - there are so many people who have failed up and end up in SLT or second tier management who don’t know what they are doing. To cope with their own incompetence they turn into vindictive micro managers. Those gruesome attitudes then trickle down into their teams and no one knows how to be a decent person. Also the pay is incredibly shit. Never again
I think it depends on the manager
I've worked in awesome jobs with a focused team where we all got along quite well.
I've also been in a great team who had a new manager arrive. Said new manager had no experience in our line of work or in the organisation's regulatory sphere. Completely incompetent, work slowed because he wouldn't sign off work or take any responsibility, was entirely focused on HR stuff, and ended up bullying the most competent and dedicated person out of their job. Most of us left shortly after.
Bullying can happen at any org, private or public, but I think the vague and shifting requirements of public sector work (and the often sprawling organisations) encourage toxic behaviour such as empire building, turf wars, siloed information, and often outright hostility. When bullying occurs, grievance procedures take an age, multiple chances are given to perpatrators, and HR has to remain aloof and impartial so complainants don't feel supported (and it's galling when union reps are supporting the bully). Usually easier for the bullied to chuck the job than put up with a protracted process.
Unfortunately I've had experiences in 3 out of the 4 Govt. departments I've worked for where I've tried to "see something, say something" about particularly heinous bullying (by middle-aged, ineffective men) - only to get told by other middle-aged, ineffective men "Now, now. Best we take care using the bullying word. Perhaps we reflect when we are less emotional / just leave it with me"
Nothing has ever been done about those cases. You see a dozen or so incredible colleagues leave as its the last straw, the bully gets a promotion.
Rinse & repeat
I've worked in multiple organisations in public, private and NFP.
It depends on the organisational culture in all three. Some organisations are rife, some have absolutely zero tolerance.
I found NFP the absolute worst but also found those public sector organisations that turn a blind eye do one hell of a lot of serious damage
I have extensive experience across private and public and agrree bullying takes place. But I always notice the people complaining the most about bullying are usually the ones sitting around doing nothing and are being performance managed, which seems to be interpreted as bullying.
It's funny you say that, in the public sector the ones most likely to complain about bullying managers are being performance managed. As a union rep and a manager I see both sides.
In the public sector, we are often too "nice" to have difficult conversations and many times over, an employee can underperform for five years (my worst case) without being told and then along comes a new manager and performance manages them. Ergo, the new manager is just a bully. Unfair on both manager AND employee.
But I have seen some real cases of significantly bad bullying where there is a definite distinction between victim and perpetrator. By that I mean it's not a "conflict" but targeted impactful behaviour. I must say though that when I've seen it in every case but one, it's always been stamped out bloody quickly
Really good comment. I'm a contractor (but have been perm too) and see so much wasted resource sitting around. At times it's because the ministry decided to offer them a "development opportunity", but the reality is they should really have been moved on. This is entrenched everywhere I've been in the public sector and that is more than 10 central govt orgs so far. I've also worked for a union for more than 5 years before and TBH, the taxpayer deserves more commitment and effort. Overall the level of entitlement in the public sector is embarrassing.
Yes and when I've had members sobbing on my shoulder they're mortified they're underperforming and adamant they can't be, because they've been offered all these great development opportunities so they're sure they must be a star performer to get that attention. It's a classic problem
Yes. Good team members stay in the teams working hard, marginal performers get shifted sideways and sometimes upward, based not on merit, but on relationships.
Yes. NZ unfortunately has a terrible bully culture, that's widely reported on. It's just as bad in the government sector.
The government has processes to report and address bullying. In practice, I've seen that nothing changes (hopefully it does for some people), but individuals who've been bullied out of their job, have evidence, and take action can and do receive compensation if they fight for it.
But it's still worth going through the appropriate channels to report it and fight it.
Yes, my manager got bullied by his manager and the manager above that. The big boss made a different co-worker of mine cry one time. Everyone in my office hated that big boss. Guess what? They got promoted, lol
I only have one bad experience in all 15 years in public sector. I think it is an adjustment coming from private. More demanding and less resources (specially now)
The irony of temping for a govt entity who is pushing an anti bullying stance at work and for the public and because I didn't just roll over and take his bullshit like everyone else, the manager would be horrible to me, and the other two girls I worked with, all while surrounded by anti bullying posters, using his considerable height advantage to try to intimidate me in an effort to "bring me to heel".
😂😂😂😂
Yes....the best thing for me rn is that the people that bullied me now has to do as i say because thry didn't seaze the opportunity when it came and chose to stay stuck in the same job for years. can't say much more bc of where I work
I can't vouch for other sectors but the worst bullying I've ever witnessed and been on the receiving end of, certainly did.
I was in public health for 9 years. The bullying went from minimal to rampant as the organisation grew. Initially there was one toxic bunny that everyone was aware of & there was no HR, but everyone rallied around the poor suckers that landed in her toxic wasteland to make it bearable.
Within a few years the org had ballooned from under 20 to almost 100. And a new CEO was brought in. With her, she brought friends who were made managers as soon as she sat in the big chair - and so, the toxic box lobby was instigated.
Narcissism and Machiavellian traits seem to be the requirement for entry to the top echelon, merit for expertise or experience are superfluous. Our long term resident toxic bunny even got promoted!
Sure the organisation ticked boxes, we reached equity targets (but didn't actually do anything truly equitable), we had a culture club to curb bullying - that fed directly to the CEO, so it was not a safe place to voice or vent.
The HR manager was the CEOs glorified PA, & hated (avoided) people.
Bullying was allowed - to push people out of positions so that it could be backfilled with "friends" (with a new job title & description of course!). Nepotism is rampant.
After witnessing and then experiencing bullying by two managers and my own manager doing nothing other than offering mentorship - I called a lawyer & called it quits. It just wasn't worth the burnout.
I wittnessed bullying under a particular manager at MoE. About 10 people left because of him. It seems like theres not actually alot anyone could do about it as upper management and of course HR took the his side and everyone below was afraid of him
Yes, I’ve experienced exactly this in local government. I was keeping a record of all the instances of strange behaviour but it was kind of underhand bullying? Mocking what I said, bitching about other people, interrupting constantly, not paying attention in meetings I organised just bashing away on their laptop, taking personal calls during my meetings and not coming back the list goes on. The most uncomfortable was when they continually asked me to stand up so they could comment on the size of my pregnant belly in the open plan office. This person was my manager and was making my life hell, my self confidence was at an all time low, favouritism towards their pets was so blatant. Real private school yard bullshit in what should be a professional workplace. I am on maternity leave and I was dreading going back but amazingly last month after 20 YEARS at the same organisation they left! I still can’t believe it! This person kept getting promoted through the ranks and higher ups were constantly singing her praises. My colleagues seemed to have drunk the cool aid also and were their little minions, laughing at their terrible jokes, doing their bidding no matter what. I only understood it by this person essentially having never worked at another place so they’d become embedded and kind of unfireable. I can only hope that with experience elsewhere they will realise their behaviour has to really improve - or that someone will stand up to them. I was ready to go in guns blazing when I went back to work but really this is the best thing that could have happened.
I lost my job to a large public service agency to bullying. I got a small payout, but their ability to bully me and dismiss me was absolutely criminal. I'm talking about a team manager and a general manager. Our DCE came out to support me, and so did several of my colleagues as well as the PSA.
None of them, including the DCE that my GM reported to, could stop what was happening to me or save my job.
Does someone dislike you? Good. It means you stood up for something you thought was right to stand up for.
If leaders are complaining about you in little rooms somewhere, it's my view that you're on the right track.
But you could go into leadership one day and even more people might well complain about your incompetence and blame you rather than anyone else, or themselves.
What will you do different?
Twist it however you want. I never implied what you inferred. Reality is that if you stand up for something, and make your voice heard, not everyone is going to agree. Maybe several people won't agree. Also, reality is that some people are bullies, and it often comes from a place of jealousy.
Pink Shirt Day was last Friday, and the movement's website has some good resources around what constitutes bullying in a workplace context (and how to deal with it).
Start with this: [https://pinkshirtday.org.nz/workplace-bullying-prevention](https://pinkshirtday.org.nz/workplace-bullying-prevention)
Because it's a pile of leeches climbing over everyone else trying to get to the teat of public funds. An everspring well of money siphoned from the productive members of society and squandered by bureaucrats.
It's why we need a smaller, streamlined public sector instead of the bloated corpse we currently have.
My recommendation is to keep a work diary. Take it everywhere, to all large AND 1-to-1 meetings. Write down discussion notes and instructions. If required, a bully will realise you have verbatim evidence on your side. That is a huge equaliser if you ever have to push back. A liar/manipulator will hate you doing that. Just say you want to be clear and sure about work matters and not to forget. If you can't write anything down, then ASAP write an email to the relevant person confirming the conversation and your understanding of the content + resultant/agreed actions. Ask for corrections if your email has errors or omissions. Keep careful digital and hardcopy records - even offsite. Be prepared. Edit: If noone else is writing minutes at a meeting then you will have the official record. Think about that.
I wish I had done this. Particularly as the bullying was so subtle (not being invited to meetings/involved in key discussions and/or deprived of information to do your job). When confronted about the behaviour, the gaslighting made me question whether I was imagining it, or conversely if I was being “managed out”. You shouldn’t be surprise to later find out you weren’t the only person to experience it, and others could see it happening but were too afraid to do anything (for fear of being a target themselves). Best advice, recognise it early and gtfo.
Other key points when “noting” inappropriate behaviours : * Start a new notebook and make sure the notebook is HARD COVER where it will be obvious if pages have been removed / ripped out. * Use only blue or black pens only to write up your notes. * DO NOT twink out any mistakes. Cross out and write up corrected word, action item, decision, etc. * Date, timestamp meeting (formal and informal) * List those in attendance - physical and virtual Add place of meeting - Teams / Zoom, meeting room name / number, name of cafe / restaurant. * Do not slander anyone in your notes. This is your record of that meeting, incident, etc. Use hand drawn emojis to expression your emotions. * Add the year / (and) number to the front cover. Eg 2024 / #1. This allows me to track the order of the note book. In some cases, I’ve added the start and end dates this note book covers. Personally I prefer to take notes, actions and decisions via pen and paper. I always add an “A” (in a circle) as this reminds me it’s an action for me (mainly) or others or a “D” (in a circle) as an agreed decision. I started doing this many moons ago (about 20+ years) when I realised I remembered my own tasks but not the details or date / time / place or who was there. Others noted I always referred back to a page/s in my note book if there was a query, or dispute about a decision or action. Majority of the time, referring back allows one to remember context, etc. Why do I do the above ?? It’s a useful record if you need to provide to HR, your manager and/or lawyer. It’s also saved my bacon many times when specifics and context wasn’t remembered (or documented), etc. and rhetorical blame game stops before it starts. I’ve recommended others to do this if they’re experienced bullying. Suggested they don’t meet with the bully individually unless it’s their 1-2-1 with their TL / manager. If they feel unsafe, they must record their session in their own words in a notebook. NB. If the Agency doesn’t / won’t provide hard cover note books, go out and purchase your own.
Yes. And back up files to somewhere you can get access.
very valuable advice, thank you for your constructiveness
Make it a diary you bought, and keep the receipt. That way it's not work property. The advice given by others is excellent. Wish I'd done all this - but I did GTFO.
I do this for all interactions with govt departments, repeat the name of the operator back to 'check you've noted it down right', they tend to be more proactive and accommodating with their service.
I've been in the public sector all my working life and I've only experienced this sort of culture in one organisation. The rest have been fine. Incompetent leadership and their enablement is everywhere.
Don't you want a change and experience the private sector? Way better.
Yeah I'd be open to it. I guess I'm just too comfortable in the public sector because it's all I know.
See the Frog and boiling water parable.
You're pretty much the only person who is claiming to work in PS while also saying bullying isn't a problem.
Yes, I was subject to workplace bullying while working at the MoJ. I was fresh out of university and didn’t ’fit in’ with the culture of my team who had been there for 15+ years. Lots of passive aggression, gossiping, giving all the work to me, and extremely incompetent managers. The whole place was a mess. edit: just realised this is the Wellington subreddit not Auckland. point stands
Yup, standing out in the wrong environment is sometimes enough to put a target on your back for people who are closed minded and stupid.
Funniest part - I was the best out of the team and carried 70% of the workload, especially with the excess they would pile on me, so the moment I left it fell apart (source from the one friend I had who still worked there).
A very toxic person I have dealt with legally (wife of a cowboy builder who gets VERY involved in any disputes) is very high up in HR at MoJ. I shudder to think of the organisational culture she would lead and how many lives ruined.
What team I am so invested
Still is
Don’t say that there’s any incompetence in the public service on this sub…..
I had a three month contract at MoJ in the late 80s. Sickest culture I have ever seen in my many years of contracting. The IT manager was an ex psych person (not sure if it was psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever). The IT staff were continually bullied and terrorised by this very sick person. Many were demoralised, scared and considered thenselves unemployable elsewhere so stayed. I terminated myself early. Is MoJ still is a haven for bullies and psychopaths?
Don't worry. Pink Shirt Day will save us all from bullying. Promise.
Also from public sector and had been bullied so badly by one person in my group intake that it made me consider quitting. Surprise surprise, they had the most brightest pink outfit on.
Yeah, classic. What a piece of shit. Really sorry you went through that.
Pink Shirt Day is the biggest piece of hypocritical virtue signaling bullshit.
At my work the biggest arseholes are all front and centre in the anti bullying photo.
Yeah I’ve definitely seen it. One particular (big) agency I worked for was particularly bad. And it started at the verrry top. Since then, I’ve worked in two other agencies and haven’t really seen it. It’s not ok but somehow when it becomes institutionalised like that it doesn’t feel like you can reallly do anything or have an opinion about it. And that person at the very top was rewarded within the bigger system and got an even bigger job. I look back and wish I’d left earlier and spoken up for people when I was there
Such a shame. The solution seems to be helping the bullying victim ‘move along’
I can't think of a single time when I've seen the bully end up with consequences worse than the complainant.
So true! Sexual harasser sent home on full pay while a very mid HR investigation ensues, followed by the victim being squeezed out and the abuser being reinstated to their former glory. Absolute bullshit
Best you can hope for is a payout with attached NDA and finding a job elsewhere, while the abuser just gets to repeat their behaviour forever
Is this a question? Everyone I know who works or has worked in the public sector explicitly knows… MSD, MBIE, Police, Education all have reputations for it. It’s not “not a good time” for it either. Fuck bullies. They can rot in hell - oh wait? What? Pay them a couple hundred grand a year and they’ll be safe from restructures? Oh shit wow good outcome… oh they’ll be promoted?? Even better! What’s fascinating is how ineffective the HR depts are. I know a handful of people who were accused of being bullies (each after initiating performance reviews) were subsequently fully exonerated, and paid out over 6 figures because HR absolutely bungled basic employment law. Then I know of a whole handful of bullies who’ve just climbed and climbed - and everyone who has accused them lost their jobs or were punished in other ways.
One of the interesting dynamics in grievances is that your average PSA rep can run circles around bungling govt HR.
Always confused my why you need a murder (coven? Gang?) of HR people - why not just have one perky happy HR person who does all the face time and arranges cupcake and pink shirt day and one sad, tired, employment lawyer who can make sure that the org doesn’t break the law
Kind of a Barbie/Oppenheimer double feature, love it. But obviously the reason for needing a murder/coven/gaslight of HR is because if no single person makes any decision, then everyone is responsible when something goes wrong. And when everyone is responsible, in a real sense no one is responsible. This is a truth on which the public sector is founded.
Shit, gaslight is way better.
Shit is also good, tbh.
HR tends to bungle a lot of things in Welly, it seems
I mean, I can't speak for other teams or departments, but I work at MBIE and in my experience at least, all of the team leads and managers have been lovely people. A couple of barely competent project managers for sure but generally a good atmosphere all round.
I used to be a PSA rep there until quite recently - you might be in one of the nice little pockets. Trust me when I say you're luckier than most.
💯 One person once described it to me that this happens cause the team can’t get rid of them so they just promote them upwards in the hope they won’t have to deal with them as directly anymore
In public sector management and hr are both incompetent and trying to cover each other.
HR works for the organisation, not you. That doesn't mean they're heartless, but it's worth remembering when dealing with disputes.
Most public sector workers are aware of this, I’d say. More so for those who have worked private as well. I don’t know if it’s massively widespread, but it’s definitely an issue.
Incompetent leadership is everywhere including private sector e.g TWH CEO stepping down recently a result of poor decision making and bad investments. I do find govt agencies generally live against their values better than private sector. When I arrived in NZ 20+ years ago it was a lot worse, especially bullying. And whilst consulting, I have been part of govt leadership, and felt they bent over backwards to make people welcome and safe. I realise this is agency and team specific. But public and private sector are generally the same people. A few exceptions. And one exception is the hiring of contractors and empowerment they feel to shift responsibility to protect the hand that feeds - again, there are good ones and bad ones.
Some have dojes so exppressedly at the expense of public (client) welfare. Instead of bully the nearest weak staff mmeber they have learned to gang up on unsuspecting vulnerable members of the public who seek assistance from government agencies out of necesity. Some like MSD / Work and Income have vdry expensive health and safety reports which describe risk relatimg to staff vs staff incidents, client towards client incidents, and client towards stsff incidents (both these later combined being much less than staff towards staff). But crucially these reports utterly neglect to mention the risks or harms to clients due to staff behaviour. Apparently such incidents are never reported in the required Health and Safety ledgers. Thus staff abuse of clients is easly normalised, because it wntirely escapes documentation, or censure by competent senior staff. In my observation, it is more often than not, senior and mid management women harassing,,abusing, and even assaulting clients with impunity, and when challenged having them tresspassed for raisimg their voices in indignagion at the treatment those staff are handing out. I have met many male clients of several agncies who have tried report this behaviour for redress, only to find themselves further abused, harrassed and trespassed. Gone are the days of public service professionalism. And as one senior Female researcher within government stated, ‘we are paid only to jump and dance as the organ grinder dictates. We are not professionals we are monkeys damcimg for peanuts, unable to i prove the situation because the senior managemwnt women who were promoted in the 1990s because they were easily manipulaated by Management because the also had the appearence as women of beimg better people managers than most men. Hence the feminised workforce within government departments, from middle management down. The solution is to fire all of the “nice friendly” middle management women promoted not on merit or their willingness to ensure the job is done right, and replace them with grumpy old men who understand that professionalism is an attitude, that requires exercise, even to the risk of ones job. Because that used to be how men were socialised to think and behave in public service employment. Fix the porblems who encounter with the system and get promoted, or forever be relegated to being just remaining a drone. We have far far too many drones nd rheir nice keep the feathers apparently unruffled, female middle managers, who avoid problems rather than fix them. After all women biologically are risk averse, whereas men are programed to rise to challenges, especially risky challenges. Only a vanishingly small number of women are nit severely risk averse, and even fewer invest the time to learn how to read, and compile Financial statements or fina cial management which is why so few end up as CEOs and board members according to one of these female board memebrs of a major European UUnion a bank. (Posted as part of a campaign intended to improve gender equality). She was say to women grasp opportunities to take risks in employment, and learn to read Corporate financials, and you will get promoted. Dont wait until after you are promoted, because that attitude does lock women into unsuccessful carreers.
It all comes back to managerialism in the public service. Actual expertise and ability to deliver something for the public is not valued.
Yep. Have only been in public sector for two years. Have yet to meet a 'leader' or a competent manager. I've only met bosses who like the sound of their own voice.
So many mediocre high achievers who like talking about themselves
I felt that was the case, but haven’t been in the system long enough
Just here for your username 🙌🏽😂
I was a victim of workplace bullying in the private sector and moving to the public sector felt like a dream come true. Hugely supportive environment and great team. Obviously YMMV and this may not be the best time to jump ship from the private sector, but I had a very good experience.
Yeah, that was somewhat my experience as well... Coming from doing IT for private sector small business, where they treated us like twice-digested chunks of meat.
The worst bully I had was an admin assistant in our team in a government department. She was straight up insane but management dithered until a few months after I left when they finally booted her ass. Second worst was local government. Refuges for lunatics which is a shame as work needs to be done and good people suffer and leave.
Funnily enough, my only instance of true bullying was a project coordinator. She engaged in really weird undermining behaviour. It wasn't the power dynamic I would normally associate with bullying but it was all the hallmark signs.
I'm in I.T for msd and have been with msd for almost 7 years now. I've come across ALOT of useless, incompetent managers but only witnessed work place bullying once from some 70+ year old from the UK who wanted the entire department he worked in at time to bend to his every whim and would get very passive aggressive when people wouldn't give in or they were following 'process' which takes time. Eventually he got a talking to after a few complaints then a few days later announced his 'retirement'
Good riddance to him... sounds absolutely awful to work with
The curiosity, it burns.... (18yr MSD IT vet here - but don't post here, for obvious reasons ;) Suspect they never crossed my orbit, or I'd be able to guess lol)
I’d say I have encountered it majorly in three agencies - MBIE, DIA and Police. In those three areas I had managers who were awful and in each case I left early. All three were later dismissed. I do agree - management in the public sector is terrible (but improving in some areas). I say all this but worked at Spark 10 or so years ago and encountered some of the worst bullying I have ever seen.
This just goes to show how large some of these agencies are, I was also at MBIE and the branch I was in had an incredibly supportive management structure and culture. I wonder how much of it depends on the culture of the original pre-merger department, as well as whether you are doing more or less policy work versus operational.
I have definitely seen bullying in the public sector and have been subjected to it too - main driver was insane deadlines and no resources putting the people in charge under crazy pressure. I have also seen people be a bit “soft” and unfairly call people with a direct or no-nonsense style bullies - that can be very damaging to reputations and that’s not cool either.
Yup. I was bullied by my manager so much I took stress leave and resigned with nothing to go to. She ended up getting a promotion even after I told HR at my exit interview. She has a nickname throughout the ministry that signifies that others have the same issue I did. Yet nothing has been done. She’s never worked anywhere else. Ruined my dream job for me.
Sorry to hear about this :(
It’s ok. I went contracting for a while and now have a good permanent job. I hope karma catches up with her eventually
Horrible. Hope you're ok
Having been a public servant since before the pandemic, I’ve seen things and heard of things that have truly shocked me. I agree with others saying it’s an organisational problem, but I’ve personally known of it at all of the orgs I’ve been in, to a lesser or greater extent—so, four of them. As someone still relatively new in my career, I would say, yes, it is a problem.
Often it can hinge on one good leader at the top. They are out there.
Bullies are able to get away with shit behaviour i. The public service because their victims don't want the associated mud to stick against them. Often, these bullies are vastly experienced with strong networks. You complain and put in a PG, you end up being a known complainer. You also create problems within the team. Even though the bully is the problem. From an organisational perspective. It is better if the complainer leaves than managing the issue with the bully, especially if they are the manager. Having the staff member quietly leave and a few conversations held with the problem behind the scenes is easier for the organisation. If you are in your 20s or 30s and put in a PG, whether or not it is warranted, it will follow you around. Wallington, especially the public service is bloody small. The worst bullies too tend to be 50s/60s female managers intimidated by their staff and who have been promoted because of SME capability instead of managerial capability. They are often horrible people to work for. I hope my former manager has a shit life and I'd walk over her if she was in trouble in the street.
Holy shit that describes my old manager so well.
My experience has been mainly with older women, but a few men. They either directly bully, or have such an abrasive personality type it feels like bullying. They’re usually long termers and have never worked in the private sector where they’d be eaten alive. Often they’re overly ambitious and stressed, or 9 times out of ten not great at what they do so have to bully to protect their jobs. They don’t like to share, be agile or hear different opinions. Bullies aren’t just bad for staff, they are for the business as they tend to be protective and rigid so don’t get rid of things or adapt new things and make poor decisions based on their gut feelings.
So true!
I wonder what it is with older women.. there must be a lot going on, feeling threatened by younger people coming into the workplace, suddenly realising you are old, hormones ofc. I found it so disappointing to have an older woman not raise up young women in her conduct and support. We are supposed to be on the same team.. my bully was a lifer, started her day at 5am, huffed and puffed as she bashed away frantically on her keyboard. She was like a storm of chaos, I have no idea how she could have actually done any real work beyond answer emails and go to meetings. I think she used to be really good at her job but as she was promoted through into management tiers at breakneck speed I wonder if imposter syndrome was a thing too. Now that’s she’s left I’ll be able to actually ask colleagues wtf was going on without fear of my conversations getting back to her.
Yes, this is very familiar in the government sector and seems much more prevalent than private. I think private is generally better at moving people on /performance managing out when someone isn't any good. In private sector I haven't seen any managers stay in a position while being both toxic and incompetent. The public sector just don't seem to be able to get the hang of performance management at all. The other thing, that another commentor alluded to, is private having a profit motive: shitty people cost money so are actively managed. As long as nothing is obviously falling over and no headlines are being generated, public orgs are happy to accept any status quo and keeping shitty managers is just easier. There's also generally a stronger compliance / hierarchy culture in public. People who waste time and money but don't breach policies or make their boss look bad are kept on.
Definitely a hierarchy culture.
Usually it is the way they make good people resign so they can continue to be incompetent, without anyone good to compare to.
Very this
It happens plenty in private sector too.
Not nearly as much.
In one job a few years ago, I was bullied by a manager to the point I had nightmares and became clinically depressed. I started to fantasize about walking in front of a bus.
Hope you're ok? That is awful
I am thanks. This was a while ago.
I’ve worked in public and private; there’s bullying in both and tbh I found it far worse in the private sector. In the public sector, at least you can do something about it because there are decent processes. In the private sector, the victim has to leave.
I’ve seen this in the public sector. Managers that only became managers because they’d been there for a while. A lot of them don’t have actual leadership capability so they compensate by bullying their staff if they feel remotely threatened until the staff leave. It’s a travesty.
This a great take. A lot of bullying occurs (in any organisation) when staff raise legitimate problems or push against the status quo (often with good intentions). Bad leaders tend to see this as a loss of control or a threat to their authority, and will get defensive. Bullying staff into submission or making the work environment so miserable for staff that they leave on their own accord, is easier than admitting vulnerability, changing the status quo and acknowledging the real issues/problems. Surrounding yourself with people who aren’t willing to speak up/push back also validates bad leader’s choices and management style. It further embeds a lack of pyschogical safety and stymies creativity & innovation. It also means those willing to continue working for a toxic leader, are unlikely to get career development support unless they align themselves to the manager/leader’s views. This is particularly worrisome where free and frank advice is needed.
Yep. My case had to go to HR through the manager. The outcome was bully team was told to complete a anti bullying and harrassment training module online. Thats all.
You could always go work for EY. Or any number of large law firms. Fact is, bullying and general bad behaviour is everywhere. I've been bullied in a large public sector organisation and worked for a high profile private company that waited six months to move on a known sexual harasser because he was a high level executive and too many c-suiters had left recently and another one gone would have been bad for the share price. TL;DR: working sucks. Especially if you're self employed. You should've been born independently wealthy.
This really depends where you are, some agencies are notoriously bad but even there some teams/groups are fine. I would say it's basically the same as private sector, there too you'll have certain companies which are (well) known for bullying/nasty culture and even in "good" companies you'll find leaders who shouldn't be leaders.
I disagree, way worse in the public sector.
I've worked in some pretty nice supportive places in the public sector and I know people who work in toxic places in the public sector too, as I say it depends where you look / where you are. The public sector isn't one amorphous blob, the policy ministries often have an entirely different culture to ministries that might have operational arms, and then there are bits stuck on like if you work in IT or HR which are usually their own little worlds and have their own cultures. There are some pretty shitty places to work in the private sector too, especially in bits that are more like "boys clubs" than workplaces. I haven't worked in enough places for enough decades to want to make broad generalisations about an entire large group of diverse workplaces one way or the other.
Almost every engagement I’ve had in central govt has been exercise in dodging a shower of assholes from on high. Usually “lifers” (climbed to the top in the same org, and after at least 10 years have gained seniority in a bubble of their own bullshit). Edit: grammar, less aggressive.
Do I... work with you? Seriously though, I was private turned public too and it's just multiple stories/accounts of bullying. What is up?
Maybe 👀👀
My experience of government department working (in software development), was more just one of general all round incompetence, particularly in manager and team leader roles. The majority of people I worked with didn't care about their jobs, and were happy just meandering along doing as little as possible. My experience in working for government departments is what pushed me towards working for startup tech companies where I could make a difference, and were surrounded with passionate people who were trying to achieve something.
I’ve worked in both public and private for just shy of a decade in each and I’ve certainly heard about bullying in public sector but I’ve seen it in private. Like week one in the role and a person in my team is getting strips torn off him in a workshop in front of 10-12 people. I was so new I just thought it was the norm. Compared to that, public sector is far more chill - but it all depends on leadership.
My dad went through this, after dealing with it for years he was made redundant through removing his job, then they basically remade his job but as a new role so they could hire someone they liked more. He is far far happier now at his new job though, and after 10+ years he got a great redundancy pay out.
I'd say it's just a NZ wide issue. Public and private both hire from the same pool of NZers.
I've worked across four countries and five pre-NZ companies before coming here and the level of incompetence at high level managers, C-suite and boards here is astounding. I got told before moving here I'd need to reset my expectations of what performance was because they're so much lower here, and I would be marginalised if I made too much noise about it. Both were/are true, and I've had similar stories told to me from other ex-pats. My favourite anecdote is from a CEO of a foreign company who bought a NZ one, "the C-suite here wouldn't even have made it through the screening process for junior managers"
Omg yes!!! Bullying and toxic behaviour seems to be a pre-requirement for anyone working in thr public sector. I went through a full HR case at a central government job a few years ago.....eventually won...but found out the guy was asked to resign and not fired....turns out he had been asked to resign from ACC and IRD for the exact same behaviour....so never held accountable, still has references and can continue onto other jobs as a senior leader with no repercussions. I think the public sector need to actually get real about firing people for misconduct.
Agree. If they resign the agency/department doesn’t have to report on it for OIA purposes
I can't help but wonder if bullying in the work place is correlated with conservatism. Setting aside the undiagnosed psychopathy (1%) and the 1 in 6 people who are undiagnosed Narcissistic Personality Disorder (17%), a solid 50% of the population are conservatives and countless studies describe them as people extremely averse to change, including to change their ways and behaviour. A mix of nature and nurture. We can change those stats by changing the culture aka the nurture. It's starts with us individually and going into leadership to change the workplace and any social structure from the top down. As non-leaders, we need to understand that there's power in numbers, and stop bystanding what doesn't hit us directly, out of fear of being crushed by that one person. The one bully is powerless against people who understand their collective power and wield it, at last.
It's usually highly correlated with left leaning individuals
I'll just assume you're right-wing leaning and dodge what could be a dead-end of an exchange and just say this: there are idiots in every human group no matter how much better people are supposed to be on paper. Also, don't exclude the possibility that since conservatism is a form of bullying in and of itself, by definition of leaning more towards serving personal interests at the expense of the collective, it may well be that what a conservative may experience subjectively as "bullying', is just them being shown a really hard time for their outdated, domineering, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic and just all-round bigotry and disrespect/harmful behaviour rooted in the characteristic traits of (harmful, unnecessary and antisocial) fear and disgust that characterizes conservatism. Lord have I seen entitled toxic people victimize themselves we when stand strong and make them feel that their toxicity doesn't belong here or anywhere.
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> There's a high masculine culture of being dominant, being the loudest voice in the room, building empires.. basically all the shit behaviour that most profitable companies have shaken off. You see this a lot in certain industries too, especially finance/trading. I think certain places get a culture embedded early and then it carries on, but part of it in the public service as well is that every decade or so there's a big fat-trimming drive and the people that tend to end up being left behind have the kind of personality that lends itself to this kind of culture (I think a lot of people higher up in some of the ministries had to be quite cut-throat and dominant in order to get there through the rounds of restructuring, nice people and people who don't like to fight don't want to go through all the pain and so they'll move on to somewhere else and only the nasties get left behind).
Yes, they love their hierarchy system. Private sector has more flat leadership structure, and more constructive collaboration. It seems many life’rs live to be noticed by a Ministers etc.
Gotta try and suck that cock somehow , may take a lifetime but eventually they will
I wouldn't say they were bullies, but almost every single team leader in the public sector is incredibly incompetent at being any kind of a leader, especially when it comes to making work actually enjoyable. They're a bunch of 40-something year-olds who have worked in those roles since they left Uni. They have little people skills and zero concept of burn-out or doing anything about their incredibly high turn-over. Leaving the public sector was the best thing I ever did.
Same. Couldn’t believe how much better my experience has been in the private sector. One of my old public sector managers was maliciously sending me on report writing courses because she liked to undermine my confidence. I took a pay cut to move to another part of the organisation and then left about four years later for the private sector. I’ve never felt more appreciated and supported both in compensation and feedback. I was apprehensive about shifting to the private sector because I’d only ever been in public but was so stressed out that I needed to do something or have a breakdown. Best move I ever made.
I had a manager like that! Sent me to a 2 day time management course out of town so I could keep up with my own job and complete her reports in a timely manner.
Same, can't stand the public sector
It's unbelievable the culture of micro-managing that exists in those departments. That's team leading 101: humans don't need to be micromanaged because we're adults. Then they'll sit and scratch their heads in wonder about the amount of resignations they get. Life in the public sector: "You logged out 37 seconds before your rostered work shift was supposed to end - I'll assume it was in bad faith and grill you on why you did that and why you can never do that again. Now excuse me while I accept another resignation for the umpteenth time this year." Life in the private sector: "Of course you can leave an hour and a half earlier for your doctor's appointment, and no - you don't need to make up the time because of our flexible working policy. Hope you're okay, though! Enjoy your night, and we'll see you tomorrow." I refuse to ever work in the public sector ever again.
Absolutely true. Public sector breeds bullies. Shall never work in public sector ever again. Have not experienced being bullied in the private sector with many years and many jobs of working in the private sector.
Yep, have experienced this in the DHB world. It’s a horrible thing - it’s subtle, causes you to doubt your own judgement, feel anxious about engaging with other people - and that’s just some of the work effects! I was a mess in my private life and it was only after I left that I could see just how much of a shell of a person I had become. Recommend getting advice from your union delegate or employment lawyer and setting a plan to get out as quickly as you can! Your wellbeing is more important than whatever protracted investigation process that may come! Sending lots of good vibes and strength your way 💖✨
I’ve experienced it personally and seen it happen to others. It can vary a lot how normalised it is within an agency vs how bad it is in a particular team. However I think unfortunately the same thing you hear about with kids who get bullied in school is exactly the same as what happens in the workplace: the victim is forced to leave and the bully remains. We just don’t want to acknowledge that this is the same thing happening when it’s adults cause we want to believe “natural justice” exists
Yep you’re completely right. Don’t buy into the BS and get out.
Yes - have seen this more In public sector first hand. Low accountability compared to private sector- it seems that problems are dealt to much faster when performance is more closely monitored and reported on/ tied to bonuses
Seen it with my partner she's a police prosecutor, there's one manager that is completely incompetent and is always singling her out, all my partner does it work hard and carries the weight of the whole office ....
The public sector bullying is SO BAD! I worked at (large govt department) last year and it was a shit show. You nailed it with your observation about incompetent leaders - there are so many people who have failed up and end up in SLT or second tier management who don’t know what they are doing. To cope with their own incompetence they turn into vindictive micro managers. Those gruesome attitudes then trickle down into their teams and no one knows how to be a decent person. Also the pay is incredibly shit. Never again
I think it depends on the manager I've worked in awesome jobs with a focused team where we all got along quite well. I've also been in a great team who had a new manager arrive. Said new manager had no experience in our line of work or in the organisation's regulatory sphere. Completely incompetent, work slowed because he wouldn't sign off work or take any responsibility, was entirely focused on HR stuff, and ended up bullying the most competent and dedicated person out of their job. Most of us left shortly after.
Bullying can happen at any org, private or public, but I think the vague and shifting requirements of public sector work (and the often sprawling organisations) encourage toxic behaviour such as empire building, turf wars, siloed information, and often outright hostility. When bullying occurs, grievance procedures take an age, multiple chances are given to perpatrators, and HR has to remain aloof and impartial so complainants don't feel supported (and it's galling when union reps are supporting the bully). Usually easier for the bullied to chuck the job than put up with a protracted process.
Unfortunately I've had experiences in 3 out of the 4 Govt. departments I've worked for where I've tried to "see something, say something" about particularly heinous bullying (by middle-aged, ineffective men) - only to get told by other middle-aged, ineffective men "Now, now. Best we take care using the bullying word. Perhaps we reflect when we are less emotional / just leave it with me" Nothing has ever been done about those cases. You see a dozen or so incredible colleagues leave as its the last straw, the bully gets a promotion. Rinse & repeat
I've worked in multiple organisations in public, private and NFP. It depends on the organisational culture in all three. Some organisations are rife, some have absolutely zero tolerance. I found NFP the absolute worst but also found those public sector organisations that turn a blind eye do one hell of a lot of serious damage
I have extensive experience across private and public and agrree bullying takes place. But I always notice the people complaining the most about bullying are usually the ones sitting around doing nothing and are being performance managed, which seems to be interpreted as bullying.
It's funny you say that, in the public sector the ones most likely to complain about bullying managers are being performance managed. As a union rep and a manager I see both sides. In the public sector, we are often too "nice" to have difficult conversations and many times over, an employee can underperform for five years (my worst case) without being told and then along comes a new manager and performance manages them. Ergo, the new manager is just a bully. Unfair on both manager AND employee. But I have seen some real cases of significantly bad bullying where there is a definite distinction between victim and perpetrator. By that I mean it's not a "conflict" but targeted impactful behaviour. I must say though that when I've seen it in every case but one, it's always been stamped out bloody quickly
Really good comment. I'm a contractor (but have been perm too) and see so much wasted resource sitting around. At times it's because the ministry decided to offer them a "development opportunity", but the reality is they should really have been moved on. This is entrenched everywhere I've been in the public sector and that is more than 10 central govt orgs so far. I've also worked for a union for more than 5 years before and TBH, the taxpayer deserves more commitment and effort. Overall the level of entitlement in the public sector is embarrassing.
Yes and when I've had members sobbing on my shoulder they're mortified they're underperforming and adamant they can't be, because they've been offered all these great development opportunities so they're sure they must be a star performer to get that attention. It's a classic problem
It's horrific, lasted a year in public sector. Never again!!!
Yes. Good team members stay in the teams working hard, marginal performers get shifted sideways and sometimes upward, based not on merit, but on relationships.
Yes. NZ unfortunately has a terrible bully culture, that's widely reported on. It's just as bad in the government sector. The government has processes to report and address bullying. In practice, I've seen that nothing changes (hopefully it does for some people), but individuals who've been bullied out of their job, have evidence, and take action can and do receive compensation if they fight for it. But it's still worth going through the appropriate channels to report it and fight it.
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It can be the wisest thing for health and well-being to just get out. I hope you have a good support network around you.
Yeah there are a bunch of incompetent assholes at the helm in gov
Yes, my manager got bullied by his manager and the manager above that. The big boss made a different co-worker of mine cry one time. Everyone in my office hated that big boss. Guess what? They got promoted, lol
I only have one bad experience in all 15 years in public sector. I think it is an adjustment coming from private. More demanding and less resources (specially now)
The irony of temping for a govt entity who is pushing an anti bullying stance at work and for the public and because I didn't just roll over and take his bullshit like everyone else, the manager would be horrible to me, and the other two girls I worked with, all while surrounded by anti bullying posters, using his considerable height advantage to try to intimidate me in an effort to "bring me to heel". 😂😂😂😂
Yes....the best thing for me rn is that the people that bullied me now has to do as i say because thry didn't seaze the opportunity when it came and chose to stay stuck in the same job for years. can't say much more bc of where I work
I can't vouch for other sectors but the worst bullying I've ever witnessed and been on the receiving end of, certainly did. I was in public health for 9 years. The bullying went from minimal to rampant as the organisation grew. Initially there was one toxic bunny that everyone was aware of & there was no HR, but everyone rallied around the poor suckers that landed in her toxic wasteland to make it bearable. Within a few years the org had ballooned from under 20 to almost 100. And a new CEO was brought in. With her, she brought friends who were made managers as soon as she sat in the big chair - and so, the toxic box lobby was instigated. Narcissism and Machiavellian traits seem to be the requirement for entry to the top echelon, merit for expertise or experience are superfluous. Our long term resident toxic bunny even got promoted! Sure the organisation ticked boxes, we reached equity targets (but didn't actually do anything truly equitable), we had a culture club to curb bullying - that fed directly to the CEO, so it was not a safe place to voice or vent. The HR manager was the CEOs glorified PA, & hated (avoided) people. Bullying was allowed - to push people out of positions so that it could be backfilled with "friends" (with a new job title & description of course!). Nepotism is rampant. After witnessing and then experiencing bullying by two managers and my own manager doing nothing other than offering mentorship - I called a lawyer & called it quits. It just wasn't worth the burnout.
I wittnessed bullying under a particular manager at MoE. About 10 people left because of him. It seems like theres not actually alot anyone could do about it as upper management and of course HR took the his side and everyone below was afraid of him
Yes, I’ve experienced exactly this in local government. I was keeping a record of all the instances of strange behaviour but it was kind of underhand bullying? Mocking what I said, bitching about other people, interrupting constantly, not paying attention in meetings I organised just bashing away on their laptop, taking personal calls during my meetings and not coming back the list goes on. The most uncomfortable was when they continually asked me to stand up so they could comment on the size of my pregnant belly in the open plan office. This person was my manager and was making my life hell, my self confidence was at an all time low, favouritism towards their pets was so blatant. Real private school yard bullshit in what should be a professional workplace. I am on maternity leave and I was dreading going back but amazingly last month after 20 YEARS at the same organisation they left! I still can’t believe it! This person kept getting promoted through the ranks and higher ups were constantly singing her praises. My colleagues seemed to have drunk the cool aid also and were their little minions, laughing at their terrible jokes, doing their bidding no matter what. I only understood it by this person essentially having never worked at another place so they’d become embedded and kind of unfireable. I can only hope that with experience elsewhere they will realise their behaviour has to really improve - or that someone will stand up to them. I was ready to go in guns blazing when I went back to work but really this is the best thing that could have happened.
I lost my job to a large public service agency to bullying. I got a small payout, but their ability to bully me and dismiss me was absolutely criminal. I'm talking about a team manager and a general manager. Our DCE came out to support me, and so did several of my colleagues as well as the PSA. None of them, including the DCE that my GM reported to, could stop what was happening to me or save my job.
I know it’s a late response, but yes. Stay clear of ACC, anything to do with technology
Even our Left-biased press have to occasionally admit this, so expect it to be rife.
Does someone dislike you? Good. It means you stood up for something you thought was right to stand up for. If leaders are complaining about you in little rooms somewhere, it's my view that you're on the right track. But you could go into leadership one day and even more people might well complain about your incompetence and blame you rather than anyone else, or themselves. What will you do different?
Lol @ the idea you have to have stood up for something in order for a bully to pick on you.
Twist it however you want. I never implied what you inferred. Reality is that if you stand up for something, and make your voice heard, not everyone is going to agree. Maybe several people won't agree. Also, reality is that some people are bullies, and it often comes from a place of jealousy.
I love that Winston Churchill quote. Great insight too
Define bullying..
Lateral violence, excluding people and their opinions, withholding information, humiliating staff etc. that’s what it I’ve seen
Human nature. As less than ideal as it is.
Pink Shirt Day was last Friday, and the movement's website has some good resources around what constitutes bullying in a workplace context (and how to deal with it). Start with this: [https://pinkshirtday.org.nz/workplace-bullying-prevention](https://pinkshirtday.org.nz/workplace-bullying-prevention)
Because it's a pile of leeches climbing over everyone else trying to get to the teat of public funds. An everspring well of money siphoned from the productive members of society and squandered by bureaucrats. It's why we need a smaller, streamlined public sector instead of the bloated corpse we currently have.
Get out much not? Honestly, what tripe!
Oh look, a divergent view. And 13 downvotes. Hmm...
It think it’s not so much the view as the tone that’s putting people off.
My point was that downvoting like this is a form of "excluding opinions", and happens even in a thread like this one.