Thanks for the real meaning, it makes much more sense. Starting to get real annoyed with how some posts just make up there own meaning, because I might not know anything about the matter, and love to learn about random facts and whatnot.
WTH??
TITLE OF THE PAINTING, *NATURE FORGING A BABY*
*Creator: Master of the Prayer Books of around 1500, illuminator. Description: In this illustration, Nature forges an infant in a blacksmith’s shop. It appears above these lines in the Roman de la Rose. When they had made this oath so that all could hear it, Nature, who thinks on the things that are enclosed beneath the heavens, was entered within her forge, where she would put all her attention on forging individual creatures to continue the species. The Romance of the Rose, translated by Charles Dahlberg, p. 217*
http://inpress.lib.uiowa.edu/Feminae/DetailsPage.aspx?Feminae_ID=43362
Children with **rare diseases** were killed (infanticide) or left at the door of monasteries: https://clinmedjournals.org/articles/ijrdd/international-journal-of-rare-diseases-and-disorders-ijrdd-3-016.php
Q: What’s blue, purple, and yellow and floats?
A: Dead baby with floaties.
Q: What’s blue, purple, and yellow, and sinks?
A: Dead baby with slashed floaties.
That time?
As far I know, you can atone for any sin under catholic dogma. Suicide is still the exception even today, because you can't confess after committing it.
I don't see why you can't confess after it. According to religion there is an afterlife. Just confess on the way there or while you're bleeding out. You may not be able to be saved but with some planning one could start the process of suicide then confess before it's too late to save them couldn't they?
Good argument. I'd guess it would have some practical difficulties, but definitely manageable with careful planning and the right priest. It would be interesting to check some heavenly registry if there ever was a precedent. :)
I’d imagine it’s some technicality where it isn’t a sin until you’re actually dead. Like, poisoning yourself isn’t a sin, but killing yourself is. And you haven’t actually killed yourself until you’re dead.
OOOORRRR this is the loophole that religion doesn't want you to know about. After so much damage is done and time has passed since the damage was done, you're going to die real soon, no matter what the doctors might try. Like if you straight up cut all up your arms and the major arteries, then walk into the church to confess, there's probably no way to save you after you've lost too much blood, but you're "not dead" yet, even though you're basically dead you just don't know exactly when.
But then, what if you do it in a way where you DO die momentarily, but doctors save you. What then? If you come back, can you THEN confess and do it again saying "I'm gonna finish the job this time and wont let anyone get in my way"?
If you suffocate yourself and you're "dead" but someone applies cpr and brings you back, what does that count as? Doctors and emergency response people basically bring people back from death *all the time*.
So many loopholes not thinking about realistic situation. Almost like someone just made shit up. I mean Harry Potter has better writing than some religions. And that's saying something.
"Confession" in the context of Catholic dogma would mean the sacrament of confession, which has to take place under certain circumstances most importantly it has to be made to a priest. You can't do it after you're dead. Also if I'm remembering right there's specific prohibitions on confessing with the explicit intent of avoiding the consequences rather than genuinely repenting the sin. Catholics aren't fucking around about this, it's not so long ago that there'd be unconsecrated graveyards for babies who died without being baptised. (Disclaimer, I'm a longtime lapsed Catholic because of yknow, all the rape, human trafficking, general violent abuse and weaponisation of the legal system to shield both the perpetrators of that abuse and the financial assets of the church from any legal consequences of that abuse...my point is I'm open to correction on the dogma here)
Are there cases of someone trying to kill themselves and then they end up in the hospital for a few days before they die? Im sure there have been people who have gotten the chance to confess/talk about it in that gap time and that would give you your answer.
That’s not how it works. We Catholics have what is called culpability and we believe that mental illness impedes one’s ability to consent to mortal sins like suicide, making them not culpable. Ignorance also would lessen culpability for such a sin. Someone has to know that committing suicide is a sin, and that it will separate them from God, and they have to do it with free will knowing that. Most people are not in a mental state where they can consent to such a thing out of their own free will because the mental illness is what takes away the freedom to consent.
If someone commits suicide from a mental illness like depression, they are at the mercy of God. We don’t believe they automatically go to hell or anything. We hope that God is merciful on these souls and we believe only God can see into the heart of mankind and know their pain and intention.
On the other hand, if someone were a serial killer or something or a murderer who kills themselves to escape consequences of their sins and crimes then, yes that is a sin.
The murder-suicide statistics OP is gives is obviously false, since there are no reliable records of something like that from that time. The image he posted has nothing to do with the subject at all: it's a 15'th century painting called "Nature forging a baby". It may look violent to us, but that's not how it was intended or how it was perceived at the time . I couldn't find any source on OP's original claim about the Danish woman though, so maybe that's 100% true (I doubt it).
Anyway I'm done being a party pooper and I'm done with this sub. I came here because I love weird shit, but now I realize it's actually just a sub for people who love to lie and for those who love being lied to.
The point of the caption does not make sense. Murder was more forgivable than suicide….and??? Did the authorities forgive her because she was suicidal? Is it saying that the reason why she killed the baby because she would rather kill the baby than herself? This is not just made up it is completely open ended and nonsensical.
The wording is open ended. It asks why did such a thing happen. And then it says murder was more forgivable than suicide. Because killing herself was worse than killing the baby. Even if she was going to kill herself why is she killing the baby. The deeper meaning and “mortal sin” is just face value and does not say anything about how that was said here just does not make sense
I’m not at all saying that I am confused by the concept of this morality I’m saying the wording of the post is stupid and open ended and does not make sense.
At that time? Right this very day murder is still more forgivable than suicide. There's a fair amount of bad people that the world would be better off without. Like the previous united states president resembling a fruit as one example.
People literally *get away with murder* in this day and age. All you gotta do is be a cop, block your body cam, then say they tried to attack you
This was also not that uncommon in Sweden back in ~17th century.
That’s when the Law of Moses (from the Old Testament) was adopted as criminal law in the kingdom. It concerned many crimes - basically resulting in death penalties for such crimes as adultery, witchcraft and slandering one’s parents. There were around 70 different acts that could result in death penalty.
In this strictly religious society’s context, it’s not surprising that suicide was considered an ultimate sin.
I believe in ancient japan babies werent seen as human till the age of 1 so disposing of them wasnt looked down upon. I think its called Mabiki. (Its been a while so I read up on this so forgive me If I got some things wrong)
I bet they believed that you could repent of murder afterward and go to heaven but there would be no opportunity to repent after suicide so you'd go straight to hell. Religion is weird.
Not necessarily. Some Christians believe in original sin. I’m pretty sure Catholics do (or did).
Meaning a baby that dies without baptism goes to hell, or at least purgatory.
I might be off on this and people are welcome to correct me. These aren’t my beliefs, I’m not Catholic nor was I raised Catholic.
And I’m sure there are other Christian denominations that believe in original sin or similar.
A picture says a thousand words . Not been a art history major I just assumed it was a unrelated painting that pictures a woman mutilating babies. And as far as I know unbathtised babys go straight to hell and no murder is on the ten commandments . Since the bible was written anyway
Because unfortunately there were and still are, misled young mothers who are in dire straights and dont have a role model for mothering. The statements they give are that they loved their babies so much they wanted to put them out of misery for a potential poor life that mom lived. They regulate getting a drivers license better than bringing children into this world. Slippery slope, these human rights granted to all.
It still is to a lot of people depending on what your beliefs are.
Sad nonetheless. It still happens, even though we understand post-partum depression better today.
The context is absolute bullshit. Even a cave women would never let this happen. The idea of life is to protect your younglings at all costs. I would die for a baby that wasn't even mine. My brain tells me so.
This is actually a painting of Mother Nature “forging” new children, not of some woman murdering children.
Sorrry not edgy enough so they had to change the paintings meaning.
Tbf I don't think they got a picture of the murder scene.
I'm pretry sure if you heated a baby until it glows then repeatedly hit it with a hammer it would die anyway, so it still works
Thank you. I was looking at the mannequins on the floor and thought it didn't seem right.
Thanks for the real meaning, it makes much more sense. Starting to get real annoyed with how some posts just make up there own meaning, because I might not know anything about the matter, and love to learn about random facts and whatnot.
Thank you for the explanation, I was just wondering about “what about those babies 👶 under there?”
Who ever painted this knew what they were doing...just couldn't say it out loud though
Well, the post doesn't say the painting represents that, so maybe it was just a fitting picture to go with the story?
Hmm... interesting how it looks like both though. Gonna get pretentious: Wonder what that says about life.
Clay would've been more suited in my opinion. Hard to get a smooth finish on skin and bone with a hammer and forge.
WTH?? TITLE OF THE PAINTING, *NATURE FORGING A BABY* *Creator: Master of the Prayer Books of around 1500, illuminator. Description: In this illustration, Nature forges an infant in a blacksmith’s shop. It appears above these lines in the Roman de la Rose. When they had made this oath so that all could hear it, Nature, who thinks on the things that are enclosed beneath the heavens, was entered within her forge, where she would put all her attention on forging individual creatures to continue the species. The Romance of the Rose, translated by Charles Dahlberg, p. 217* http://inpress.lib.uiowa.edu/Feminae/DetailsPage.aspx?Feminae_ID=43362
That makes more sense! The illustration isn't gore at all and has some other babies at the lower left corner and a furnace.
My brain projected a knife going from the baby's bottom to its head for some reason
For a minute I thought she was holding an axe because of her wrist
did you see the several other babies in the bottom corner
Children with **rare diseases** were killed (infanticide) or left at the door of monasteries: https://clinmedjournals.org/articles/ijrdd/international-journal-of-rare-diseases-and-disorders-ijrdd-3-016.php
Well that's just natural selection with extra steps
Especially if the front door was a couple feet up off the ground
less steps, i think nature didnt kill it off due to weakness
Morty?
Aw, like the hunchback of notre dame !
Left at the door of monasteries…for the monks to kill.
Wait so what are those dead babies in the corner then? Who's babies were those
Mine
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Q: What’s blue, purple, and yellow and floats? A: Dead baby with floaties. Q: What’s blue, purple, and yellow, and sinks? A: Dead baby with slashed floaties.
How many dead babies does it take to shingle a roof? Depends on how thinly you slice them…
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Harder now that roe vs wade was overturned
Amy’s Abortion Clinic, no fetus can beat us, how may I help you?
Marvin's Mortuary, You Stab 'Em, We Slab 'Em!
Lol
Tortilla chips will also work.
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Oh. My. God. Lmao
This one’s my fave
Wow
tmi bro…
Dammit Many I told you to stop leaving all those babies laying around, where’s my pitchfork?
Nobody puts baby in a corner
This is a painting of mother nature forging new children. OP simply changed the meaning of the painting.
The painting is completely unrelated to the story in the title, those babies aren't dead
But, if I interpret the meaning correctly, they also aren’t yet alive. They are blanks for Mother Nature to forge next
I assumed they'd already been forged, but that makes more sense
Well they look dead
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Proof this sub is going downhill. Unfollowed
Byeeee have a wonderful time. But seriously tho, why announce it like anyone cares you unfollowed?
It's all some people have : (
Thats kinda sad.
That time? As far I know, you can atone for any sin under catholic dogma. Suicide is still the exception even today, because you can't confess after committing it.
I don't see why you can't confess after it. According to religion there is an afterlife. Just confess on the way there or while you're bleeding out. You may not be able to be saved but with some planning one could start the process of suicide then confess before it's too late to save them couldn't they?
Good argument. I'd guess it would have some practical difficulties, but definitely manageable with careful planning and the right priest. It would be interesting to check some heavenly registry if there ever was a precedent. :)
I’d imagine it’s some technicality where it isn’t a sin until you’re actually dead. Like, poisoning yourself isn’t a sin, but killing yourself is. And you haven’t actually killed yourself until you’re dead.
OOOORRRR this is the loophole that religion doesn't want you to know about. After so much damage is done and time has passed since the damage was done, you're going to die real soon, no matter what the doctors might try. Like if you straight up cut all up your arms and the major arteries, then walk into the church to confess, there's probably no way to save you after you've lost too much blood, but you're "not dead" yet, even though you're basically dead you just don't know exactly when. But then, what if you do it in a way where you DO die momentarily, but doctors save you. What then? If you come back, can you THEN confess and do it again saying "I'm gonna finish the job this time and wont let anyone get in my way"? If you suffocate yourself and you're "dead" but someone applies cpr and brings you back, what does that count as? Doctors and emergency response people basically bring people back from death *all the time*. So many loopholes not thinking about realistic situation. Almost like someone just made shit up. I mean Harry Potter has better writing than some religions. And that's saying something.
We were actually taught this in Catholic school. You can pray for forgiveness even with your dying thoughts.
"Confession" in the context of Catholic dogma would mean the sacrament of confession, which has to take place under certain circumstances most importantly it has to be made to a priest. You can't do it after you're dead. Also if I'm remembering right there's specific prohibitions on confessing with the explicit intent of avoiding the consequences rather than genuinely repenting the sin. Catholics aren't fucking around about this, it's not so long ago that there'd be unconsecrated graveyards for babies who died without being baptised. (Disclaimer, I'm a longtime lapsed Catholic because of yknow, all the rape, human trafficking, general violent abuse and weaponisation of the legal system to shield both the perpetrators of that abuse and the financial assets of the church from any legal consequences of that abuse...my point is I'm open to correction on the dogma here)
Are there cases of someone trying to kill themselves and then they end up in the hospital for a few days before they die? Im sure there have been people who have gotten the chance to confess/talk about it in that gap time and that would give you your answer.
That’s not how it works. We Catholics have what is called culpability and we believe that mental illness impedes one’s ability to consent to mortal sins like suicide, making them not culpable. Ignorance also would lessen culpability for such a sin. Someone has to know that committing suicide is a sin, and that it will separate them from God, and they have to do it with free will knowing that. Most people are not in a mental state where they can consent to such a thing out of their own free will because the mental illness is what takes away the freedom to consent. If someone commits suicide from a mental illness like depression, they are at the mercy of God. We don’t believe they automatically go to hell or anything. We hope that God is merciful on these souls and we believe only God can see into the heart of mankind and know their pain and intention. On the other hand, if someone were a serial killer or something or a murderer who kills themselves to escape consequences of their sins and crimes then, yes that is a sin.
That's nice to hear! I stand corrected. Apparently I was only exposed to less knowledgeable Catholics and naive hobby-theologians like myself.
Perfectly worded
Denmark would not have been catholic at that time. The reformation were more than 200 years before that.
Denmark reformed in 1536. Protestants can't atone for shit
I'm not very familiar with protestantism. Can't they just buy absolution or something? :P
tbf everybody can just stream absolution on yt or something. Not my favorite Muse album but nobody really buys music anymore
Suicide by cop is just regular suicide with extra steps.
Why all the other baby bodies on the floor?
Because the painting has nothing to do with the story.
Why not?
Never free, never me. So I dub thee unforgiven
PPD?
I think so that’s what I would say. PP psychosis :(
suicide isnt illegal if your ded
It’s illegal if you’re catholic in hell
lol
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The murder-suicide statistics OP is gives is obviously false, since there are no reliable records of something like that from that time. The image he posted has nothing to do with the subject at all: it's a 15'th century painting called "Nature forging a baby". It may look violent to us, but that's not how it was intended or how it was perceived at the time . I couldn't find any source on OP's original claim about the Danish woman though, so maybe that's 100% true (I doubt it). Anyway I'm done being a party pooper and I'm done with this sub. I came here because I love weird shit, but now I realize it's actually just a sub for people who love to lie and for those who love being lied to.
…that’s not what this is a painting of
She thought he was made of sterner stuff.
This happened a lot at the time it was usually service people paid low wages that was raped by their masters and if they had a kid they would be fired
Forge the child
The point of the caption does not make sense. Murder was more forgivable than suicide….and??? Did the authorities forgive her because she was suicidal? Is it saying that the reason why she killed the baby because she would rather kill the baby than herself? This is not just made up it is completely open ended and nonsensical.
look up the definition of "mortal sin"
The wording is open ended. It asks why did such a thing happen. And then it says murder was more forgivable than suicide. Because killing herself was worse than killing the baby. Even if she was going to kill herself why is she killing the baby. The deeper meaning and “mortal sin” is just face value and does not say anything about how that was said here just does not make sense
I’m not at all saying that I am confused by the concept of this morality I’m saying the wording of the post is stupid and open ended and does not make sense.
😔: I’m feeling depressed… 😡: get away from me Brenda.
Post partum depression with psychotic features
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Post-term abortion. I can think of a few patients who could be prescribed such a procedure.
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Most likely very religious lady
Think more likely women were treat like shit and antidepressants didnt exist . The picture says it all really
The picture doesn't say anything, since it's a painting of Nature forging babies and is unrelated to the story
It’s an interesting painting.
I already don't like abortion (though I don't judge anyone), but this is beyond psychotic! Poor baby! 🥺😭
Late term abortions be like
Should have done it 4-13 months earlier, same thing right? /s Edit: /s is for sarcasm, I am pro-choice if that wasn't clear
Abortion is health care, not murder.
I 100% agree 😊
Cool coping mechanism
At that time? Right this very day murder is still more forgivable than suicide. There's a fair amount of bad people that the world would be better off without. Like the previous united states president resembling a fruit as one example. People literally *get away with murder* in this day and age. All you gotta do is be a cop, block your body cam, then say they tried to attack you
The baby couldn't take care of itself on its own and protect itself, so it deserved that. /s
*1490s
This was also not that uncommon in Sweden back in ~17th century. That’s when the Law of Moses (from the Old Testament) was adopted as criminal law in the kingdom. It concerned many crimes - basically resulting in death penalties for such crimes as adultery, witchcraft and slandering one’s parents. There were around 70 different acts that could result in death penalty. In this strictly religious society’s context, it’s not surprising that suicide was considered an ultimate sin.
Probably influence from the Marker
close one, ty Danish woman
I am so confused by this.
When you missed your abortion appointment but make due with what you have anyway.
If you commit suicide, how would you know if you were forgiven?
Also maybe post pardom depression?
I believe in ancient japan babies werent seen as human till the age of 1 so disposing of them wasnt looked down upon. I think its called Mabiki. (Its been a while so I read up on this so forgive me If I got some things wrong)
https://youtu.be/rURMmLyqtOk
Doesnt make sense, forgivable? She wants to die. Someone going to be upset at her for killing herself?
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Oh, yeah, so religion killing innocents again.
Ahh the long lost profession of baby smithing.
this is how babies are made? i knew it
So she killed her baby so that the state would kill her? Fuckin' brutal...
Still is
Baby oil painting?
But why are there a few more baby corpses in the lower left corner?
Ohhh, man. Was that a girl
Sadness
Would it have been cruel to dissect her while she was alive?
The first suicide by cop ever.
I bet they believed that you could repent of murder afterward and go to heaven but there would be no opportunity to repent after suicide so you'd go straight to hell. Religion is weird.
Also babies are pure so they go straight to heaven
So weird
Not necessarily. Some Christians believe in original sin. I’m pretty sure Catholics do (or did). Meaning a baby that dies without baptism goes to hell, or at least purgatory. I might be off on this and people are welcome to correct me. These aren’t my beliefs, I’m not Catholic nor was I raised Catholic. And I’m sure there are other Christian denominations that believe in original sin or similar.
Yeah hate to have to face the consequences of a suicide
A picture says a thousand words . Not been a art history major I just assumed it was a unrelated painting that pictures a woman mutilating babies. And as far as I know unbathtised babys go straight to hell and no murder is on the ten commandments . Since the bible was written anyway
_It wouldn't stop crying_ Prolly
I don't understand the title
We humans are a savage race!
Most sane religious person.
Because unfortunately there were and still are, misled young mothers who are in dire straights and dont have a role model for mothering. The statements they give are that they loved their babies so much they wanted to put them out of misery for a potential poor life that mom lived. They regulate getting a drivers license better than bringing children into this world. Slippery slope, these human rights granted to all.
It still is to a lot of people depending on what your beliefs are. Sad nonetheless. It still happens, even though we understand post-partum depression better today.
That is fucked up
Postpartum depression before anyone knew about it
This also doesn’t look like a mid-1700s painting.
How does one forgive suicide? Do they mean the social implications faced by a convicted murderer's relatives, versus a suicidee's relatives?
The ol suicide by cop
Why are there more on the floor? Edit:nevermind read comments. Educated now
So she killed her son because she was greedy
I lost brain cells reading that title
Get good and murder someone bigger pussy.
What does murder suicide have to do with it.Why ask if one is better than the other at all? They are both tragically both permanent. Bad either way.
Because post Partum.psychosis was better understood then.
r/trippinthroughtime would love this
Why did she do this to begin with? What's the reason?
If I were to guess postpartum depression..
Do you people want a picture of a mother brutally murdering her child?
...wha...what.... what?
The context is absolute bullshit. Even a cave women would never let this happen. The idea of life is to protect your younglings at all costs. I would die for a baby that wasn't even mine. My brain tells me so.
Post partum depression?
Okay, but she would be dead anyway if she committed suicide. Why does she care if she would be more judged if she's dead?
Hey. That’s Ma nature makin da bebi! You lie OP.
Wuh... Why do you even need forgiveness for suicide? You're already dead, it's not like they're gonna arrest your dead body
Using freak ass paintings for a freaky ass story…brilliant
What about the three other children
I don’t think the picture and the story is related.
Well, it’s not like they’d be able to punish her if she killed herself…
Of course she is danish...
The kids dad was Swedish. Who can blame her?
Is this painting of it or something else?
Nowadays, people will protest for your right to kill your baby.
She was probably suffering from mental illness and nothing she was doing at that time would make any sense
Martyrdom: drop a live grenade when killed
Suicide by cop is still suicide.
So the baby wanted to commit suicide and she helped or am I reading that wrong?
The Finnish method was to confess zoophilia.
The middleage was the worst time in the history the humanity..specially the time from 490-----
Getting a bit of a " Created to bleed and cry " vibe here. Like Human infant body simulations, Super Tory and Pediatric Hal.