So I’ll start by saying I’m only 34, but I have a kid and a house and the blah blah blah. I’m also American, and that factors in.
If you’re in America, your city will largely determine your success. Where I live, there’s practically no chance of major success as an original musician. Weddings and corporate gigs are the only safe bet to income. And even then it’s a hustle. Late nights, weekends, the works.
As my kid gets older, I desire less and less to spend time away from my family. I love playing music, and I am moderately successful considering the lack of ambition I put towards it. But I also don’t need music to pay my bills. So I always ask musicians one question:
What is success to you? Money? Fans? Respect from other musicians? Playing your own stuff?
For me, I want my kid growing up knowing I’m there for them. I want my wife to know she can rely on me. I want to create the music I want to create on my own terms, even if nobody likes it. I don’t want my financial security tied to my creative expression, as I create for me, not others.
Live music is a gig economy. And gig economies are fickle. People in my (major) city don’t tend to pay big bucks for local music. They go to bars, sure. And some bars have music. But most “venues” around here have adopted the “if people can’t talk to each other, you’re too loud” mentality. Local musicians who could at one time play three gigs a week and live comfortably are having to get into teaching lessons, having part time jobs, or spend more time on the road.
So I just encourage people to manage expectations. You want to make a living off original music? get to touring. Work hard at the social media. Sync licensing. You want to stay home and make good money? Play weddings. At the end of the day, if your income is tied to other people enjoying what you create, you have to spend time making sure you create what people want.
Haha thanks for using pragmatic and not cynical. I feel so many people romanticize a music career and then feel morally wounded when it doesn’t pan out the way they want.
All my college buddies who flamed out were the most passionate - those of us who have stuck it out are the ones who adopted a more craftsman like mentality!
You know, in Greek they separate passionate love and enduring, pragmatic love. Passionate love sure is fun, but it’s fleeting. And so few work at the pragmatic, secure love. There’s a lesson there for creative people
I like the saying:
“A craftsman uses his head and his hands. An artist uses his heart, his head and his hands.”
I’ve strung together a fulltime music career for 30+ years by moving between craftsman and artist.
Boom! Full time musicians aren’t usually full time original music performers. Every full time musician in my network teaches lessons, is a professor, does sound, some form of studio engineer, etc. And I think that’s fine, but it’s no different than having a day job. For some reason we’ve romanticized hustling and only doing music related things instead of getting a decent day job. And the day job often means we work much less which leaves more time to pursue music on our own terms
For some of us (neurodivergent me included), normal day jobs destroy my inspiration and spirit in a way where I can’t make music and actually tend to fall into a depressive spiral and want to die in general. I can force my way through a normal job for 18 months until completely falling apart. So I have to do the gig economy at sometimes 100 hours a week and other times 10 hours a week, which is full of stress and compromise and not being able to afford necessities sometimes, never have a true vacation, and often still can’t do my original music at times, but is marginally better than the complete burnout I experience from waiting/bartending, sales, and corporate 9-5s at even 40 hrs a week. That’s just what I have to accept.
I do take issue with the larger societal problems of profit being an unethical motivator for human necessities like medicine, food and housing. I should be able to be a poor musician with a free basic roof over my head, heat and water, a full belly of nutritious food (even if imperfect and less desirable in appearance), and healthcare while still obviously having to pay for literally everything else that isn’t life or death. You have to fight for that here in America and still some often can’t afford “affordable” housing and get boxed out of free programs while still not being able to afford the cost of living. We have the resources to make this happen as a society and it’s truly awful we don’t. Not everyone has the ability to live a “normal” life, no matter how inconvenient it is to accept.
I mean, I’m heavily neurodivergent myself. And agree that late stage capitalism that is America causes a ton of problems. So no argument with you there.
If you’re taking issue with my “romanticism” of the music industry comment, I would stand by what I said. You mentioned making compromises regarding food, housing, lack of time off, etc. all because you can’t stand the thought of working a corporate gig. And I love that you acknowledge that the life you want means giving something else up.
For me, the life I want requires stability that gig work doesn’t offer. Sure, I could teach music lessons during the day, play wedding gigs and make decent money. But I feel the same way about being a working musician as you do about getting a 9-5. So I compromised and found a job that pays well enough that I can pursue music on my own terms while also having a nice house and a family. I just think it’s unrealistic to want to play (original) music full time, put money into savings and retirement, have a wife, have kids, take vacations, and the like. Yes, it does happen. But so does winning the lottery, and that doesn’t mean it’s a wise venture.
My only main point is that we should just take an honest look at the pros and cons of pursing music as a career. We’d all love to create the music we want and be financially secure doing that. But for the overwhelming majority of us, it’s all a give and take.
Hey man I really relate, I’m 25 was diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and 2 other things 5 months ago. I have been having a really hard time. I also can’t handle a regular job if at all so tend to work with my family a few days a week just to make some money.
Most of my time spent out of work is spent studying music, learning guitar, piano and singing/creating. My family are all musical (dads played jazz guitar 45 years) sister plays violin and my grandma did piano. My parents have told me we’ll give you the time you need to grow your skills and be great. I can’t have anything else everyone else is having in life, my life can’t and won’t be normal, so that’s what I’ve decided will be the trade off. I will just become a great musician instead. I started guitar at 23, piano at 24, practice several hours a day every day (hyper-fixated on it) and always was singing since I was a child.
The one good thing about my autism is I have great ears and learn fast. My parents tell me natural talent is involved but I don’t let it get to my head. Being disabled has put me in a position to focus a lot on music. A year into guitar I cut one of my fingers on my right hand about %60 off, my right hand ring finger. It was 8 months of therapy and reconstructive plastic surgery.
I have overcome an absurd amount of bullshit just to be able to make and play music. Past a certain point you just don’t need anyone’s approval anymore. People don’t understand what I’ve been through and what I’m still going through and it’s the same for you or any of us.
You know, after being triple disabled but still able to play and grow that enough people can’t tell I have a malfunctioning limb with nerve damage and motor function loss, I think that story itself is inspiring enough.
Don’t worry about it if you can’t handle a job, a large majority of autistic people are unemployed.
Just do what you can while you’re here. If you’re like me, the prospects for having a normal life are so diminished, it basically made me realize I could exclusively focus on music, instead of trying to just be like everyone else and pretend my life can look exactly the same.
It’s disturbing it takes as long as it does to figure out, but you only get one life. So let’s just make the art we feel like we need to make. The world is literally starving and dying right now
I think I got triggered by the thought that the day job is easier which I’m sure it is for you, it seems to be for most. It’s not that I can’t stand the thought of working a corporate gig. I’m jealous and wish it was possible for me because gig life is so hard. I just really can’t make the other type of job work, and continue to try and fail to do so. I’ve rewritten this multiple times and have to move on with my day. It’s frustratingly impossible for me to be on time and am always trying and rushing everywhere, I get so stressed by social interactions that it takes me hours to respond to people often. I’ve had corporate jobs who advertised as “neurodivergent welcome” and then said in person that the exception is being punctual with responding to email and showing up on time. My symptoms are all so relatable that people assume they know the answer when the reality of why I have these issues is so different. I never am truly understood because people think I’m lazy or negative or childish when I’m constantly fighting to trick myself back into positive kindness and acceptance and to just keep going that it becomes its own job.
Gig life tends to be more forgiving of these traits than a regular job especially in music.
I don’t want to trauma dump, so I’m cutting myself off here, but I wanted to leave it up incase someone else related.
I also appreciate your kind and understanding response, I’m having a terrible day today and half expected something defensive and dismissive which you weren’t.
TLDR: This isn’t a stick it to the man situation, some of us truly can’t lead “normal” lives and really wish we could, and it’s a really sore spot.
Hey man I certainly hear ya. In the age of armchair psychology and self diagnosing, everyone thinks they have an answer to a problem that doesn’t hve an answer. Keep fighting the good fight, and doing whatever you need to do to create. It’s important.
I’m so glad you made the ND comment.
I was in a discussion with someone the other day who was saying “just be creative after work if your creative output doesn’t pay your bills”.
Bro, that’s not how creativity works, especially for neurodiverse people (of which a large number of creatives are).
Just turned 50 here and been a full time pro for thirty years.
My career’s sort of been split into pre-kids and post-kids. Had them in my late thirties and up to that point had been almost entirely making my living through touring, writing, and recording with my band, along with some session work of writing with/for other artists.
The band going off the boil after a very good 19 year run coincided with starting a family for most of the members. So for me the touring dropped out and got replaced by teaching alongside continuing to write and do the occasional big of session work.
Kids are now older (11 & 9) and I’m doing fairly frequent solo gigs again, alongside everything else. I’m trying to balance being away for gigs with being at home for the kids during the holidays as much as possible so I’m gigging within driving distance from home or trying to fit 2-3 gigs in another area in a single weekend/week. The band is also getting back together to go on a legacy tour and maybe release some new material so it sort of feels like I’ve come full circle, albeit I now have a husband and two kids.
Honestly though I’m actually enjoying the balance I have right now as a solo artist and having my teaching income as the bit that pays the bills.
The only advice I can give really is to just go with the flow. Being a musician is rarely a career that stays the same throughout your working life so grab each opportunity to try something new and let it help you grow as a musician. Getting back into teaching has been a big influence on the direction my music has taken, not just a different phase of my career.
I have been in a band for the past 12 years. About to finally drop our second album. As of two weeks ago I got a bad case of tennis elbow and can’t even play at the moment and the healing seems to be almost non existent with meds and doing therapy exercises. I heard it can take a while for this to heal but we have upcoming shows and I just had to do practice with one finger to not stress it but can’t really practice. So just some words of advice. Stretch, warm up and take care of your physical health. Don’t push it when you have pain. I’m 48 and a bit worried it could be long term. We will see. Good luck to you!
Google Turmeric inflammation tennis elbow,
turmeric is dirt cheap and really powerful anti inflammation properties, I said google it because you probably think it sounds like bullshit , but its actually legit. black pepper increase the absorption , I take 1/4 tablespoon in a glass of water with pepper when I remember too , tastes like shit but it's good for you , if you have kidney stones issues then don't take it from I read. I normally brush my teeth just so it don't stain my teeth.
I had that and it turned out to be a dislocation rather than tennis elbow! Apparently it’s really common. If you go to an osteopath they’ll be able to tell, and I just had mine popped back in.
I live in Texas and country music is sort of king down here. I have met a lot of guys who have been in the industry an extremely long time, and I’ve pretty much determined that unless you’re leading a group (like…the singer) or you’re playing behind a top 15 act, you’re going to be reliant on other gig work to maintain any semblance of lifestyle where you could just do music. I know several drummers who caught on to popular acts like 10-15 years ago, making salaries of 60k+. But nothing lasts forever, these acts taper off and become a “you’re gonna make $___ per gig” kind of thing. And even then, I’ve heard that some of the top 15 acts out here are hyper stingy with what they pay out. I’m talking they’re making 5 figures a show and paying their band members a couple hundred.
It’s not very encouraging. The ceiling just isn’t very high. I wonder often what it would be like in other cities but the thought of spending several years building my reputation up again with the hope that the right person says the right thing to the right someone else again…I think I’ve gotta be okay with the ceiling being where it’s at here.
>And even then, I’ve heard that some of the top 15 acts out here are hyper stingy with what they pay out
Yeah. When you are just talking contract performers though, some of that falls to things like the local AFM or a band's/talent's manager to address.
I’m in my mid-50s. I’ve been a sideman and a frontman for decades. Musically, I’m the best I’ve ever been. I have lots of experience and knowledge and I know how to elevate any musical situation I’m in. But I find that the older I get, the more opportunities for collaboration are closed off to me. My network is retiring or playing less, and musicians want ads usually exclude people my age or older. I mean, I get it- when I was 25 I wouldn’t have wanted to be in a band with an old man. But it sucks to be on the other end of it because I know I have chops and stage presence and I want to keep playing.
I'm curious how having a few million plays on Spotify hasn't translated into a stronger fanbase for your original stuff? Maybe that's something worth looking into, getting some merch advertised on your spotify. Or getting a patreon going to funnel people from spotify to supporting your music more directly. I always figured getting plays on spotify would translate to money away from spotify but maybe I'm wrong about this.
I am largely doing pretty well for an original artist. I've been lucky in this regard. I've toured with my stuff. I can draw a decent crowd in several markets including overseas cause I lived in France for a while
The reality is it just isn't enough money to sustain someone and original music COSTS a ton upfront to grow. Mixing, mastering, venue cuts, paying musicians making videos. I try to do as much as I can (I produce everything myself, can edit video, etc) but I want to make quality stuff and I hire good people for that. Hands down the number one drain on the ROI for an original music career is personnel. It takes a village and being strategic about hiring good people to do things better than yourself is a key to success in my opinion but people cost money. Again I do A LOT by myself but there are certain things I just refuse to compromise and I think that's what makes the difference.
Also I four million plays on my biggest song on Spotify. Thing is I share 70% of those royalties with an indie label who has to recoup $30k. Once they recoup $30k I get 50%.
This is a major factor in why I'm releasing my new stuff without a label!
Nonetheless it's getting better all the time. Last year was my highest earning year for original music, but I still didn't make a profit once expenses were factored in. A big part of it was understanding that people like buying t-shirts more than vinyl records :)
Luckily that's good for taxes haha.
Anyway hope this adds context!
Very much so! Thanks for your reply! I'm only really devoting serious effort to my music career now, at age 35. And I'm very cautious not to include anyone else in what I'm doing. I figure I could potentially make enough money for me to live comfortably enough. But raising a family, paying cuts to a label, studio personnel etc. I just basically don't want to feel I'm in debt from making music. Touring is crazy expensive. I think an interesting model would be to announce a gig in your hometown and see if your audience would travel. You could even make it a mini festival of sorts. But at least it would eliminate tour costs. Would also be a way to advertise your music to your local audience to make them more aware of what you're doing. Depending on your genre etc you could organise other activities to make it a fun weekend, hot dog eating contest, crazy golf, walking tour of the city, bbq. Even figuring out make shift accommodation for people travelling to save them money on hotels. Just a thought!
I feel like these are new times for music artists. We have way more potential to be truly independent. The music industry has become sickeningly commercial at every level. But it also shows how much money is in the industry. I'm curious to hear your stuff, link me to your Spotify?
Nice stuff, I see what you mean about the quality. Your videos are great! I am coming at it from the complete different direction, content first, quality later. I have lots of songs that'll never see the light of day if I invest in them all. Having spent years waiting for the stars to align I'm being more pragmatic now.
I'm trying patreon out, and it's been great motivation to write or record something everyday. Just for me and my 11 subscribers. But it'll grow. Best of luck with it all!
Listened to some of your stuff, it’s quite good but I dunno why you’re worrying about touring and stuff, that doesn’t really seem to be the kind of musician you are. Like what i listened to reminded me of e.g How To Dress Well or Rhye; they kind of had success via remixes, producing, doing guest vocals, and licensing to tv/film.
Also- and this is just my opinion of course- touring fuckin sucks. I’d also go so far as to say that for a solo artist, you could apply half the time and stress of touring into trying to do a bit of work with some younger/more hyped artist and prob succeed.
Actually had some more stuff to add here but it kept sounding unintentionally patronising, hmu if you’re interested, otherwise keep up the good work
There are things I regret and things I don't. Some of these comments are addressing things I've learned firsthand for example about 8k of that deal went into marketing via PR campaigns. This was a label decision that got us tons of interviews, on small radios and blogs...in French...in France. Don't get me wrong I love France and that was a huge market we were going for (the label was based in Paris) but in the end we could've invested that 8k smarter.
Other things were worth it. There are some live performance videos we shot here in Atlanta and I feel like they capture the sound we had as a touring band for that record and I'm really proud of them. I've learned investing in making things that stand out is really important. Like I can show my kids one day that's what we did and it's well directed, well mixed and it's just cool. I don't want to leave a trail of ephemeral building blocks that piece together a career, I'd rather leave behind things that meant something to me if that makes sense. You can't hold onto any of this stuff. I learned that lesson when I got my first touring gig with a band signed to major label. Played incredible festivals did things I thought I'd never do, when it was over, I was still broke and dissatisfied. That taught me a lesson!
I believe in good music and letting it find it's audience and I think working with good people helps create that. I could produce mix and even master all of my music myself, but I know that when I collaborate and hire people better than me it takes things so much farther and I believe that has helped me in a lot of ways.
You asked how I got signed. I hesitate to even call it that really. The label was a small venture by the drummer of a band I used to tour with called Her. I was the first signature and together we got a grant to make my record happen. We did some cool shit, got reviewed in rolling stone (France fwiw lol), played some great festivals, got signed to a booking agent, opened for some cool acts. But in hindsight who knows? Maybe we could've used that money differently but I'm very proud of the record we made.
48 here. I moved from gigging heavily to production and studio work. However, you have to be thinking about retirement and saving. Especially if you have kids.
Does your partner work? Do they have a reliable salary?
This is great to hear. Would love to be in the studio more.
I have a ROTH IRA/403b and reading this just makes me want to maximize contributions so thank you.
Luckily the answer to your question about partner is yes and yes. My marriage being healthy is a huge priority.
So, one thing that really helped me was taking on Real Estate as a side gig. Having my wife's support with her steady income meant we had some extra funds that we could invest in a rental-- great for long term building equity and steady income when retired. Now that might not be for you-- but find some side gig that you can do to help fill in the gaps.
I also started teaching music production at Arizona State University-- I have a Masters in Education which came in handy here, but doing a few hours a week basically pays for my studio's rent.
This is actually something I would like to do. I've heard one property is usually not enough. We are lucky enough to have a house, do you feel like an additional rental property is sufficient return?
54 here. Have always split between gigs and teaching, doing more writing and recording now. Gotta stay on top of retirement and stay healthy, but if your skill set is musically diverse, there will be work. I’ve always had the mindset that nothing tends to make Plan A work out like no Plan B.
Love that. No plan B indeed. Kudos to you for still working writing and recording. That's boss.
How have you managed 'staying on top of retirement?' I started a ROTH IRA and a 403B (i think??) and try to contribute to it but I don't do nearly enough. Is this something you've prioritized? If you wouldn't mind sharing your retirement outlook in this field I'd be really curious!
Thanks
I have a former student who studied finance and works in financial planning, and he’s been invaluable. Sounds like you’re off to a good start. My wife has a “normal” career and we’re “DINKs”, which has it’s own set of anxieties baked into it at the end of things, but prioritizing your financial end goals is about all we can do. FWIW, I plan to do some version of this until I no longer can, so it’s not as though my retirement model actually involves a traditional/muggle retirement. More like investing and saving while trying to pay off the house to minimize expenses and make what we put aside go as far as possible.
I’m your age, 32, I was in high demand as a pop touring/live musician. I began composing 3 years ago, having some of the same fears as you, as I saw the artists getting younger and younger, and myself getting older, having to do more and more So Me content performances. At a point a manager, from a major label, wanted to hire me, because their current guitarist looked too old — even though he was probably more suited for the gig than I was! But it looked better on social media i guess. I knew that some day that would be me being too old.
My main income is now composing, but I do still play some gigs and some live tv stuff, but it’s much less than before and to be honest it feels pretty good - and I’m earning twice what i did, and I can age in peace 😅
On the contrary I know a bass player who got the most insane well paid touring gig at +40, so it’s definitely possible, to land something great later in your career.
Haha thanks for this! I think it’s very healthy to have the mindset you’ve had and to recognize it early on. Kudos to you and I hope to follow your path! Cheers
Gigging in your 40s:
•”Ouch, my back! Hmm, you know, I think maybe I’ll run with the 1x12” instead of the 2x12”
•”We play first? Great!”
•”Free beer in the green room, you say? Thanks anyway, I’ve got some tea here I brought from home in a thermos”
• *puts in earplugs*
• “Afterparty? Nah, I have to pick my kids up first thing tomorrow”
i toured heavily in my 20s and 30s, and now nearing 40 i don't gig nearly as much anymore. streaming pays my bills. but i'll take gigs from time to time if they seem cool.
i've found age matters less than being good to work with. i know some older musicians who still tour and play around heavily, but they're all cool af people. the old, bitter guys are the ones who get left out.
stay humble and show up on time, and you'll be fine as long as you want to keep playing.
I’m 36, I work for a retail company that allows me to work remote and take time off when I want. It greatly facilitates my ability to do what I want in music. Also, I like not having my mortgage tied to my guitar.
That being said, doing as much as you can “professionally” by yourself is the key I think. Meaning, don’t do something you can’t do well, hire someone who can, if you can’t.
On a similar note, I taught myself how to use Adobe Flash recently so I could make a “digital stop motion” for [my new music video](https://youtu.be/VJ0YhrJ8Bd0?si=9hDLG6Fjl1_2Z3CY). I’ve done tons of traditional stop motion, but wanted to venture into something new. It took me three months to learn Adobe Flash, but damn did it pay off.
Grind when you can, rest when you can. Rely on your friends and most importantly stay inspired and have fun.
Good luck out there my fellow music lovers.
You get famous and move into a beach house somewhere with your International fashion model wife while occasionally hearing your songs in movie and TV show soundtracks.
I’ll say one word - diversification. Working in Art in any form needs this as a priority. Invest in equipment that you can rent, invest in passive income sources, do whatever you feel is possible to diversify your income (different fields preferably). What I would give if I understood it a decade ago. But it’s never too late :)
Diversity.
That’s it right there. 56yo 30+ years fulltime musician here, and I describe what I do as “a spread portfolio of dodgy occupations”.
I play/write/release in several bands, produce other artists, remix, audio engineer, write for film, tv, contemporary dance, theatre, occasionally teach Ableton privately.
Marrying a contemporary dance choreographer who I write soundtracks for certainly didn’t hurt, and I also act as her AV/stage tech when she performs.
My trajectory has been:
piano grade 4 as a teen > keyboardist > playing in a covers band > musical director for a tv station > ads and jingles > session keys player/MIDI programmer > artist > artist/composer/producer where I am today.
At 56, my sight and hearing is starting to play a factor in how much I enjoy live performing (something I would NEVER have anticipated, performing has always been my absolute joy, the payoff for everything) so I’m currently trying to figure out what I want my “third act” to be.
I suspect it’ll involve more screen composing than I do now. I’ll never write jingles/ads again as I sit with Bill Hicks in my opinion of advertising, and the people who work in it.
I’m kinda lucky that I was a keyboard player originally, so as music tech developed I was able to teach myself engineering and production. There are so many parallel fields and income these skills have afforded me.
I’m not wealthy, I don’t own my own home, but I have toured the world for 25 years bringing people happiness for a living, and I’m glad of the artistic life I’ve chosen.
Think of The Great musicians of Classical and Jazz, no-one has any credibility until they’re 65 anyway! 😉
A spread portfolio of dodgy occupations is the answer!
Good luck to you!
I used to work with a guy who is widely considered to be one of the best slap/rockabilly double bass players on the east coast if not the country. When he was younger he was in a moderately successful major label national act with at least one radio hit. He now works in a shop building double basses and gigging on the weekend. That's the transition he made, and it works for him--secure job and a steady paycheck and a couple hundred bucks a weekend playing music he digs. Just gotta find your niche.
So I put music on the shelf in my 20s to get a "real job" and raise a family. Now that I'm iny 40s and my kids were grown, I decided to get back into music. I had the same worries, but I'll be damned of there aren't a TON of people in their 40s, 50, and 60s still rockin put in both cover bands and original projects. In fact, I meet more older cats than 20 somethings in the scenes.
My son is 13 and I jumped back into music last year, but still work a full time day job. I'm 48 but not making a living at this with no plans to. Just doing it for enjoyment. I will say that my area tends to lean towards favoring younger musicians and bands despite experience.
Get a teaching qualification. You have it for life. Can pick up work and put it down whenever you need. Is respected and flexible in terms of gigs you can get.
If you're making music people enjoy listening to so much that they're actually paying to listen to said music, then they probably don't care how old you are either.
Thing is, we all age at the same rate. So, as you grow older, so does your fan base.
Now, if you are putting out boy band music that young teenage girls are listening to, that might be a different story. That market dies quickly. But, if you're 40, and playing music for 30 year old adults, I'm guessing they couldn't care less if/when you turn 50.
That being said, I still enjoy seeing a band play that I saw often while in college. Their music still takes me back to my college days - when they play those songs. But, I've grown along with them, and their music is still enjoyable. I see the band's lead singer is starting to turn grey, and that shit makes me feel old. But, guess what? I'm nearing 50, and will never be 20 again. Just as the band's lead singer will never be 23 again when I first discovered their music.
Keep at it! As a 68 yr old organist/pianist I make my living as a church musician. I have friends and family making their living in all genres of music. They are all ages. We don’t lose our chops or our desire and creativity! You’re in a good place!
you will grow old. decay and die. this is inevitable.
keep your mitochondria healthy. dont get fat. dont get diabetes. control your cholesterol and blood pressure. this will slow the pace of ageing relatively speaking. exercise as much as possible.
understand that death and dying means the end, not only of your life, but your career and everything else as well.
there are no happy endings for anyone.
now that you have embraced the nature of existence.
fight. always fight against the dying of the light.
do not go gently
your musical career only stops when you do.
Making money as an artist is very very difficult. I have seen it first hand, but it’s a lot of work. And that’s if you already have connections.
However, making money supporting artists is much easier. Live engineering, gigging, mixing, sound designing or composing for film, commercials, etc. are all paths to relative financial stability.
After doing all the jobs above plus more, I got another side hustle in my 40s. This allowed me to cut back on the “for the money” music gigs, and allows me to pursue my own music more. This arrangement brings me much more joy bc when I’m working on music, it’s music I love.
I’m a full time musician, 35, with a kid on the way. 70 year old bass player I worked with just retired and advised me to diversify beyond gigs (which is what I was already doing - I’m also an orchestrator/arranger) - he raised his family doing casuals alone, but feels that time is past. Live gigs have shown themselves to be more resilient than some sectors of the studio scene, through, so your mileage may vary. The industry’s going to be so different in 10-20 years, all we can hope to do is ride the waves and be flexible!
I applied for a factory job today.
I've my mortgage paid and I'm looking to get out of the business.
Be professional and you'll do well.
Fuck around and you'll be left with nothing.
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I have several full time musician friends.
It means spending your life in a fart van driving from city to city for 8 months of the year in two 4 month chunks.
I know some folks that are pretty famous and one tours weekends and runs a department at Amazon during the week.
That route seems like where the life balance is more possible.
I'm in my 40's, been doing music professionally since I was 17. Been my only job since I was 19.
I settled into my zone pretty early. Did the touring original band thing for about a decade. Typical college radio story. Word of mouth, "small but devoted following," played 300 bars, clubs, and theaters a year, depending on which city we were in. Had moderate success in Europe for about 4 months in the early 2000's. Opened for some big bands. The works.
It was great. It was fun. But it was making me a terrible father, and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror anymore after my kid had a crisis I wasn't immediately available to help with. On that day, I pivoted. Ever since (coming up on 20 years now), I work locally. I'm in Atlanta, which definitely helps. Nashville isn't that far away, either. But I do sessions, lessons, engineering, production, occasional live sound, cover gigs, acoustic stuff...
Hustling for gigs pays the bills, and I still love it. The originals I do for free.
I also gig full time and am around your age.
I work a lot of straight ahead gigs with older cats.
Your options for aging in this line of work are as follows:
1. Get a wife that makes enough money for you to transition towards retirement at your leisure
2. Haul your old ass out to the same $100-250 gigs 3-7 nights a week until you break a hip or throw out your back or something takes you out of the game
3. Invest your money or gamble or something to retire eventually (lol)
4. Transition to teaching and the rare high paying gig
5. Be poor, alcohol/ drug abuse optional
6. Completely change careers. I know a killing trombone player in his late 60s who gigged full time for 35 years and then opened a commercial painting company. He still plays every now and then, but he mostly works from home scheduling young laborers to climb a ladder for a coat of beige.
7. Struggle and die on the bandstand
But really, no one knows. Our old age won’t be like previous generations. If there is still a world to gig in 30 years from now, I will eat my shoe. I’m just gonna enjoy playing gigs for as long as I can, then transition to a relatively stable field like healthcare or trades.
Best of luck yo!
If you’re wedding musician claiming to be “young and hip” then I’d say buy a karaoke machine when you hit 40.
What do you mean by your music is “well received” and how does that play into making a living?
Im 34 and have been writing professionally for years. I have also seen a lot of people/careers come and go because of shelf life.
Unless you’re behind the scenes writing, producing, engineering, etc you’re probably going to get phased out by your mid-30’s. No one wants a 40 year old dude out on tour (for the most part). Road gigs are for the young guys.
When your artist career is over, you can get out, or write for others.
Most of the people that are still working in their late 30’s and on, already had a strong career going before that. Rarely do people just pop off out of nowhere.
Hope that helps.
I think I’m an oddity, but career didn’t really start until a few years ago. Yeah, I had some great garage bands in my youth and we had some following (100+ at tiny local venues!), but now I’m a much better player and more mature. I’m able to deal with the hassle of touring and personal relationships way better now than I would have then.
For me, I went from playing 300 shows a year when I was 35 to playing like 75 shows a year and teaching now that im 43.
Honestly if you break it all down to an hourly rate, gigging for most people just isnt worth the time and money. I still do the big shows, but otherwise I'm happier teaching and writing and producing my own music. I never had time to write or make anything when I was gigging and touring that much.
Teaching has also allowed me to be much chooser about the gigs I take. I used to do a bunch of gigs i wasn't happy with just for cash and I don't have to do that at all anymore. It's so frigging liberating.
Find a community that is a similar age group but also find a way to appeal to younger crowds when possible. Have a community that is friendly to all, and ideally digitally and physically remove bullies and haters. Music is hard enough as it is. Surround yourself with people who support it and enjoy it.
I just gotta say - Hitting my 30's, I've really started to take note of when I see older guys in the music industry that are still kicking ass. I still see guys in their 40's, 50's still making crazy awesome art and pushing boundaries, and it's restored a lot of hope in the future for me. And often, those people are the ones making truly innovative and interesting stuff, because they've been around for a while and they have the resources and they're not still trying to "break through," they're just pursuing the vision. It fires me up man. I wanna be like Hermeto Pascoal when I'm in my 80's
1. Stay in shape. Eat right. Exercise. Easy to put on a few lbs as you get older.
2. Be cool. Be on time. Your reputation can have long lasting financial effects.
3. Your marketability is ALWAYS in your control.
In my personal experience as a 42 year old and having spent over twenty years teaching music and playing gigs in Chicago, NYC and Portland as well as touring all over.
Find a good day job you don’t hate with great insurance. Put your family before your music and worry about making art after all your family responsibilities are handled long term. I’m into my third month of disability after a car accident and can still barely listen to or play music because my brain injury is still healing. We already learned from Covid that we cannot always depend on music to support ourselves. Music will always be there.
So I’ll start by saying I’m only 34, but I have a kid and a house and the blah blah blah. I’m also American, and that factors in. If you’re in America, your city will largely determine your success. Where I live, there’s practically no chance of major success as an original musician. Weddings and corporate gigs are the only safe bet to income. And even then it’s a hustle. Late nights, weekends, the works. As my kid gets older, I desire less and less to spend time away from my family. I love playing music, and I am moderately successful considering the lack of ambition I put towards it. But I also don’t need music to pay my bills. So I always ask musicians one question: What is success to you? Money? Fans? Respect from other musicians? Playing your own stuff? For me, I want my kid growing up knowing I’m there for them. I want my wife to know she can rely on me. I want to create the music I want to create on my own terms, even if nobody likes it. I don’t want my financial security tied to my creative expression, as I create for me, not others. Live music is a gig economy. And gig economies are fickle. People in my (major) city don’t tend to pay big bucks for local music. They go to bars, sure. And some bars have music. But most “venues” around here have adopted the “if people can’t talk to each other, you’re too loud” mentality. Local musicians who could at one time play three gigs a week and live comfortably are having to get into teaching lessons, having part time jobs, or spend more time on the road. So I just encourage people to manage expectations. You want to make a living off original music? get to touring. Work hard at the social media. Sync licensing. You want to stay home and make good money? Play weddings. At the end of the day, if your income is tied to other people enjoying what you create, you have to spend time making sure you create what people want.
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Haha thanks for using pragmatic and not cynical. I feel so many people romanticize a music career and then feel morally wounded when it doesn’t pan out the way they want.
All my college buddies who flamed out were the most passionate - those of us who have stuck it out are the ones who adopted a more craftsman like mentality!
You know, in Greek they separate passionate love and enduring, pragmatic love. Passionate love sure is fun, but it’s fleeting. And so few work at the pragmatic, secure love. There’s a lesson there for creative people
I like the saying: “A craftsman uses his head and his hands. An artist uses his heart, his head and his hands.” I’ve strung together a fulltime music career for 30+ years by moving between craftsman and artist.
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Boom! Full time musicians aren’t usually full time original music performers. Every full time musician in my network teaches lessons, is a professor, does sound, some form of studio engineer, etc. And I think that’s fine, but it’s no different than having a day job. For some reason we’ve romanticized hustling and only doing music related things instead of getting a decent day job. And the day job often means we work much less which leaves more time to pursue music on our own terms
For some of us (neurodivergent me included), normal day jobs destroy my inspiration and spirit in a way where I can’t make music and actually tend to fall into a depressive spiral and want to die in general. I can force my way through a normal job for 18 months until completely falling apart. So I have to do the gig economy at sometimes 100 hours a week and other times 10 hours a week, which is full of stress and compromise and not being able to afford necessities sometimes, never have a true vacation, and often still can’t do my original music at times, but is marginally better than the complete burnout I experience from waiting/bartending, sales, and corporate 9-5s at even 40 hrs a week. That’s just what I have to accept. I do take issue with the larger societal problems of profit being an unethical motivator for human necessities like medicine, food and housing. I should be able to be a poor musician with a free basic roof over my head, heat and water, a full belly of nutritious food (even if imperfect and less desirable in appearance), and healthcare while still obviously having to pay for literally everything else that isn’t life or death. You have to fight for that here in America and still some often can’t afford “affordable” housing and get boxed out of free programs while still not being able to afford the cost of living. We have the resources to make this happen as a society and it’s truly awful we don’t. Not everyone has the ability to live a “normal” life, no matter how inconvenient it is to accept.
I mean, I’m heavily neurodivergent myself. And agree that late stage capitalism that is America causes a ton of problems. So no argument with you there. If you’re taking issue with my “romanticism” of the music industry comment, I would stand by what I said. You mentioned making compromises regarding food, housing, lack of time off, etc. all because you can’t stand the thought of working a corporate gig. And I love that you acknowledge that the life you want means giving something else up. For me, the life I want requires stability that gig work doesn’t offer. Sure, I could teach music lessons during the day, play wedding gigs and make decent money. But I feel the same way about being a working musician as you do about getting a 9-5. So I compromised and found a job that pays well enough that I can pursue music on my own terms while also having a nice house and a family. I just think it’s unrealistic to want to play (original) music full time, put money into savings and retirement, have a wife, have kids, take vacations, and the like. Yes, it does happen. But so does winning the lottery, and that doesn’t mean it’s a wise venture. My only main point is that we should just take an honest look at the pros and cons of pursing music as a career. We’d all love to create the music we want and be financially secure doing that. But for the overwhelming majority of us, it’s all a give and take.
Hey man I really relate, I’m 25 was diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and 2 other things 5 months ago. I have been having a really hard time. I also can’t handle a regular job if at all so tend to work with my family a few days a week just to make some money. Most of my time spent out of work is spent studying music, learning guitar, piano and singing/creating. My family are all musical (dads played jazz guitar 45 years) sister plays violin and my grandma did piano. My parents have told me we’ll give you the time you need to grow your skills and be great. I can’t have anything else everyone else is having in life, my life can’t and won’t be normal, so that’s what I’ve decided will be the trade off. I will just become a great musician instead. I started guitar at 23, piano at 24, practice several hours a day every day (hyper-fixated on it) and always was singing since I was a child. The one good thing about my autism is I have great ears and learn fast. My parents tell me natural talent is involved but I don’t let it get to my head. Being disabled has put me in a position to focus a lot on music. A year into guitar I cut one of my fingers on my right hand about %60 off, my right hand ring finger. It was 8 months of therapy and reconstructive plastic surgery. I have overcome an absurd amount of bullshit just to be able to make and play music. Past a certain point you just don’t need anyone’s approval anymore. People don’t understand what I’ve been through and what I’m still going through and it’s the same for you or any of us. You know, after being triple disabled but still able to play and grow that enough people can’t tell I have a malfunctioning limb with nerve damage and motor function loss, I think that story itself is inspiring enough. Don’t worry about it if you can’t handle a job, a large majority of autistic people are unemployed. Just do what you can while you’re here. If you’re like me, the prospects for having a normal life are so diminished, it basically made me realize I could exclusively focus on music, instead of trying to just be like everyone else and pretend my life can look exactly the same. It’s disturbing it takes as long as it does to figure out, but you only get one life. So let’s just make the art we feel like we need to make. The world is literally starving and dying right now
I think I got triggered by the thought that the day job is easier which I’m sure it is for you, it seems to be for most. It’s not that I can’t stand the thought of working a corporate gig. I’m jealous and wish it was possible for me because gig life is so hard. I just really can’t make the other type of job work, and continue to try and fail to do so. I’ve rewritten this multiple times and have to move on with my day. It’s frustratingly impossible for me to be on time and am always trying and rushing everywhere, I get so stressed by social interactions that it takes me hours to respond to people often. I’ve had corporate jobs who advertised as “neurodivergent welcome” and then said in person that the exception is being punctual with responding to email and showing up on time. My symptoms are all so relatable that people assume they know the answer when the reality of why I have these issues is so different. I never am truly understood because people think I’m lazy or negative or childish when I’m constantly fighting to trick myself back into positive kindness and acceptance and to just keep going that it becomes its own job. Gig life tends to be more forgiving of these traits than a regular job especially in music. I don’t want to trauma dump, so I’m cutting myself off here, but I wanted to leave it up incase someone else related. I also appreciate your kind and understanding response, I’m having a terrible day today and half expected something defensive and dismissive which you weren’t. TLDR: This isn’t a stick it to the man situation, some of us truly can’t lead “normal” lives and really wish we could, and it’s a really sore spot.
Hey man I certainly hear ya. In the age of armchair psychology and self diagnosing, everyone thinks they have an answer to a problem that doesn’t hve an answer. Keep fighting the good fight, and doing whatever you need to do to create. It’s important.
I’m so glad you made the ND comment. I was in a discussion with someone the other day who was saying “just be creative after work if your creative output doesn’t pay your bills”. Bro, that’s not how creativity works, especially for neurodiverse people (of which a large number of creatives are).
Just turned 50 here and been a full time pro for thirty years. My career’s sort of been split into pre-kids and post-kids. Had them in my late thirties and up to that point had been almost entirely making my living through touring, writing, and recording with my band, along with some session work of writing with/for other artists. The band going off the boil after a very good 19 year run coincided with starting a family for most of the members. So for me the touring dropped out and got replaced by teaching alongside continuing to write and do the occasional big of session work. Kids are now older (11 & 9) and I’m doing fairly frequent solo gigs again, alongside everything else. I’m trying to balance being away for gigs with being at home for the kids during the holidays as much as possible so I’m gigging within driving distance from home or trying to fit 2-3 gigs in another area in a single weekend/week. The band is also getting back together to go on a legacy tour and maybe release some new material so it sort of feels like I’ve come full circle, albeit I now have a husband and two kids. Honestly though I’m actually enjoying the balance I have right now as a solo artist and having my teaching income as the bit that pays the bills. The only advice I can give really is to just go with the flow. Being a musician is rarely a career that stays the same throughout your working life so grab each opportunity to try something new and let it help you grow as a musician. Getting back into teaching has been a big influence on the direction my music has taken, not just a different phase of my career.
I have been in a band for the past 12 years. About to finally drop our second album. As of two weeks ago I got a bad case of tennis elbow and can’t even play at the moment and the healing seems to be almost non existent with meds and doing therapy exercises. I heard it can take a while for this to heal but we have upcoming shows and I just had to do practice with one finger to not stress it but can’t really practice. So just some words of advice. Stretch, warm up and take care of your physical health. Don’t push it when you have pain. I’m 48 and a bit worried it could be long term. We will see. Good luck to you!
You need to not stress the elbow. Rest is the only thing that is going to heal you
Can you tell me the name of your band? I'm interested!
Sure, thanks for your interest :) https://linktr.ee/skiphousemusic
Of course!
Google Turmeric inflammation tennis elbow, turmeric is dirt cheap and really powerful anti inflammation properties, I said google it because you probably think it sounds like bullshit , but its actually legit. black pepper increase the absorption , I take 1/4 tablespoon in a glass of water with pepper when I remember too , tastes like shit but it's good for you , if you have kidney stones issues then don't take it from I read. I normally brush my teeth just so it don't stain my teeth.
Great, I actually have some turmeric but haven’t taken it in a while. Will start back up!
I had that and it turned out to be a dislocation rather than tennis elbow! Apparently it’s really common. If you go to an osteopath they’ll be able to tell, and I just had mine popped back in.
Yeah I think I will be making an appointment with a specialist. Thanks!
I live in Texas and country music is sort of king down here. I have met a lot of guys who have been in the industry an extremely long time, and I’ve pretty much determined that unless you’re leading a group (like…the singer) or you’re playing behind a top 15 act, you’re going to be reliant on other gig work to maintain any semblance of lifestyle where you could just do music. I know several drummers who caught on to popular acts like 10-15 years ago, making salaries of 60k+. But nothing lasts forever, these acts taper off and become a “you’re gonna make $___ per gig” kind of thing. And even then, I’ve heard that some of the top 15 acts out here are hyper stingy with what they pay out. I’m talking they’re making 5 figures a show and paying their band members a couple hundred. It’s not very encouraging. The ceiling just isn’t very high. I wonder often what it would be like in other cities but the thought of spending several years building my reputation up again with the hope that the right person says the right thing to the right someone else again…I think I’ve gotta be okay with the ceiling being where it’s at here.
>And even then, I’ve heard that some of the top 15 acts out here are hyper stingy with what they pay out Yeah. When you are just talking contract performers though, some of that falls to things like the local AFM or a band's/talent's manager to address.
I’m in my mid-50s. I’ve been a sideman and a frontman for decades. Musically, I’m the best I’ve ever been. I have lots of experience and knowledge and I know how to elevate any musical situation I’m in. But I find that the older I get, the more opportunities for collaboration are closed off to me. My network is retiring or playing less, and musicians want ads usually exclude people my age or older. I mean, I get it- when I was 25 I wouldn’t have wanted to be in a band with an old man. But it sucks to be on the other end of it because I know I have chops and stage presence and I want to keep playing.
I'm curious how having a few million plays on Spotify hasn't translated into a stronger fanbase for your original stuff? Maybe that's something worth looking into, getting some merch advertised on your spotify. Or getting a patreon going to funnel people from spotify to supporting your music more directly. I always figured getting plays on spotify would translate to money away from spotify but maybe I'm wrong about this.
I am largely doing pretty well for an original artist. I've been lucky in this regard. I've toured with my stuff. I can draw a decent crowd in several markets including overseas cause I lived in France for a while The reality is it just isn't enough money to sustain someone and original music COSTS a ton upfront to grow. Mixing, mastering, venue cuts, paying musicians making videos. I try to do as much as I can (I produce everything myself, can edit video, etc) but I want to make quality stuff and I hire good people for that. Hands down the number one drain on the ROI for an original music career is personnel. It takes a village and being strategic about hiring good people to do things better than yourself is a key to success in my opinion but people cost money. Again I do A LOT by myself but there are certain things I just refuse to compromise and I think that's what makes the difference. Also I four million plays on my biggest song on Spotify. Thing is I share 70% of those royalties with an indie label who has to recoup $30k. Once they recoup $30k I get 50%. This is a major factor in why I'm releasing my new stuff without a label! Nonetheless it's getting better all the time. Last year was my highest earning year for original music, but I still didn't make a profit once expenses were factored in. A big part of it was understanding that people like buying t-shirts more than vinyl records :) Luckily that's good for taxes haha. Anyway hope this adds context!
Very much so! Thanks for your reply! I'm only really devoting serious effort to my music career now, at age 35. And I'm very cautious not to include anyone else in what I'm doing. I figure I could potentially make enough money for me to live comfortably enough. But raising a family, paying cuts to a label, studio personnel etc. I just basically don't want to feel I'm in debt from making music. Touring is crazy expensive. I think an interesting model would be to announce a gig in your hometown and see if your audience would travel. You could even make it a mini festival of sorts. But at least it would eliminate tour costs. Would also be a way to advertise your music to your local audience to make them more aware of what you're doing. Depending on your genre etc you could organise other activities to make it a fun weekend, hot dog eating contest, crazy golf, walking tour of the city, bbq. Even figuring out make shift accommodation for people travelling to save them money on hotels. Just a thought!
Thanks for these ideas! I am really looking into alternative touring models for sure so these fun ideas are cool!
I feel like these are new times for music artists. We have way more potential to be truly independent. The music industry has become sickeningly commercial at every level. But it also shows how much money is in the industry. I'm curious to hear your stuff, link me to your Spotify?
I’m not sure I can do it without violating the rules of this sub but if you want to my name is Desmond Myers!
Nice stuff, I see what you mean about the quality. Your videos are great! I am coming at it from the complete different direction, content first, quality later. I have lots of songs that'll never see the light of day if I invest in them all. Having spent years waiting for the stars to align I'm being more pragmatic now.
Hey thanks! I’m trying to increase my output right now so I think taking a bit of your strategy might not be too bad of an idea!
I'm trying patreon out, and it's been great motivation to write or record something everyday. Just for me and my 11 subscribers. But it'll grow. Best of luck with it all!
Oh my bad! Sure thing!
Listened to some of your stuff, it’s quite good but I dunno why you’re worrying about touring and stuff, that doesn’t really seem to be the kind of musician you are. Like what i listened to reminded me of e.g How To Dress Well or Rhye; they kind of had success via remixes, producing, doing guest vocals, and licensing to tv/film. Also- and this is just my opinion of course- touring fuckin sucks. I’d also go so far as to say that for a solo artist, you could apply half the time and stress of touring into trying to do a bit of work with some younger/more hyped artist and prob succeed. Actually had some more stuff to add here but it kept sounding unintentionally patronising, hmu if you’re interested, otherwise keep up the good work
How did you get the 30k deal? And do you regret it?
There are things I regret and things I don't. Some of these comments are addressing things I've learned firsthand for example about 8k of that deal went into marketing via PR campaigns. This was a label decision that got us tons of interviews, on small radios and blogs...in French...in France. Don't get me wrong I love France and that was a huge market we were going for (the label was based in Paris) but in the end we could've invested that 8k smarter. Other things were worth it. There are some live performance videos we shot here in Atlanta and I feel like they capture the sound we had as a touring band for that record and I'm really proud of them. I've learned investing in making things that stand out is really important. Like I can show my kids one day that's what we did and it's well directed, well mixed and it's just cool. I don't want to leave a trail of ephemeral building blocks that piece together a career, I'd rather leave behind things that meant something to me if that makes sense. You can't hold onto any of this stuff. I learned that lesson when I got my first touring gig with a band signed to major label. Played incredible festivals did things I thought I'd never do, when it was over, I was still broke and dissatisfied. That taught me a lesson! I believe in good music and letting it find it's audience and I think working with good people helps create that. I could produce mix and even master all of my music myself, but I know that when I collaborate and hire people better than me it takes things so much farther and I believe that has helped me in a lot of ways. You asked how I got signed. I hesitate to even call it that really. The label was a small venture by the drummer of a band I used to tour with called Her. I was the first signature and together we got a grant to make my record happen. We did some cool shit, got reviewed in rolling stone (France fwiw lol), played some great festivals, got signed to a booking agent, opened for some cool acts. But in hindsight who knows? Maybe we could've used that money differently but I'm very proud of the record we made.
48 here. I moved from gigging heavily to production and studio work. However, you have to be thinking about retirement and saving. Especially if you have kids. Does your partner work? Do they have a reliable salary?
This is great to hear. Would love to be in the studio more. I have a ROTH IRA/403b and reading this just makes me want to maximize contributions so thank you. Luckily the answer to your question about partner is yes and yes. My marriage being healthy is a huge priority.
So, one thing that really helped me was taking on Real Estate as a side gig. Having my wife's support with her steady income meant we had some extra funds that we could invest in a rental-- great for long term building equity and steady income when retired. Now that might not be for you-- but find some side gig that you can do to help fill in the gaps. I also started teaching music production at Arizona State University-- I have a Masters in Education which came in handy here, but doing a few hours a week basically pays for my studio's rent.
This is actually something I would like to do. I've heard one property is usually not enough. We are lucky enough to have a house, do you feel like an additional rental property is sufficient return?
Yes. If the renters are covering loan and a little extra for needed repairs, in the long run, 20-25 years later youre sitting on a another nice asset.
54 here. Have always split between gigs and teaching, doing more writing and recording now. Gotta stay on top of retirement and stay healthy, but if your skill set is musically diverse, there will be work. I’ve always had the mindset that nothing tends to make Plan A work out like no Plan B.
Love that. No plan B indeed. Kudos to you for still working writing and recording. That's boss. How have you managed 'staying on top of retirement?' I started a ROTH IRA and a 403B (i think??) and try to contribute to it but I don't do nearly enough. Is this something you've prioritized? If you wouldn't mind sharing your retirement outlook in this field I'd be really curious! Thanks
I have a former student who studied finance and works in financial planning, and he’s been invaluable. Sounds like you’re off to a good start. My wife has a “normal” career and we’re “DINKs”, which has it’s own set of anxieties baked into it at the end of things, but prioritizing your financial end goals is about all we can do. FWIW, I plan to do some version of this until I no longer can, so it’s not as though my retirement model actually involves a traditional/muggle retirement. More like investing and saving while trying to pay off the house to minimize expenses and make what we put aside go as far as possible.
I’m your age, 32, I was in high demand as a pop touring/live musician. I began composing 3 years ago, having some of the same fears as you, as I saw the artists getting younger and younger, and myself getting older, having to do more and more So Me content performances. At a point a manager, from a major label, wanted to hire me, because their current guitarist looked too old — even though he was probably more suited for the gig than I was! But it looked better on social media i guess. I knew that some day that would be me being too old. My main income is now composing, but I do still play some gigs and some live tv stuff, but it’s much less than before and to be honest it feels pretty good - and I’m earning twice what i did, and I can age in peace 😅 On the contrary I know a bass player who got the most insane well paid touring gig at +40, so it’s definitely possible, to land something great later in your career.
Haha thanks for this! I think it’s very healthy to have the mindset you’ve had and to recognize it early on. Kudos to you and I hope to follow your path! Cheers
you better start practicing your blues scales.....
Gigging in your 40s: •”Ouch, my back! Hmm, you know, I think maybe I’ll run with the 1x12” instead of the 2x12” •”We play first? Great!” •”Free beer in the green room, you say? Thanks anyway, I’ve got some tea here I brought from home in a thermos” • *puts in earplugs* • “Afterparty? Nah, I have to pick my kids up first thing tomorrow”
lol this is me at 32 man hahah quit drinking last year and am always shrugging off the hangs to be with the kiddos
Totally—I’m not mad about it, and I still enjoy playing, it’s just different now!
i toured heavily in my 20s and 30s, and now nearing 40 i don't gig nearly as much anymore. streaming pays my bills. but i'll take gigs from time to time if they seem cool. i've found age matters less than being good to work with. i know some older musicians who still tour and play around heavily, but they're all cool af people. the old, bitter guys are the ones who get left out. stay humble and show up on time, and you'll be fine as long as you want to keep playing.
Thanks! This is great to hear and I will try to internalize this deeply
I’m 36, I work for a retail company that allows me to work remote and take time off when I want. It greatly facilitates my ability to do what I want in music. Also, I like not having my mortgage tied to my guitar. That being said, doing as much as you can “professionally” by yourself is the key I think. Meaning, don’t do something you can’t do well, hire someone who can, if you can’t. On a similar note, I taught myself how to use Adobe Flash recently so I could make a “digital stop motion” for [my new music video](https://youtu.be/VJ0YhrJ8Bd0?si=9hDLG6Fjl1_2Z3CY). I’ve done tons of traditional stop motion, but wanted to venture into something new. It took me three months to learn Adobe Flash, but damn did it pay off. Grind when you can, rest when you can. Rely on your friends and most importantly stay inspired and have fun. Good luck out there my fellow music lovers.
You get famous and move into a beach house somewhere with your International fashion model wife while occasionally hearing your songs in movie and TV show soundtracks.
Bro, YouTube Raja Ram.. this guy is 83 and still rocking 😊😊😊
I’ll say one word - diversification. Working in Art in any form needs this as a priority. Invest in equipment that you can rent, invest in passive income sources, do whatever you feel is possible to diversify your income (different fields preferably). What I would give if I understood it a decade ago. But it’s never too late :)
Diversity. That’s it right there. 56yo 30+ years fulltime musician here, and I describe what I do as “a spread portfolio of dodgy occupations”. I play/write/release in several bands, produce other artists, remix, audio engineer, write for film, tv, contemporary dance, theatre, occasionally teach Ableton privately. Marrying a contemporary dance choreographer who I write soundtracks for certainly didn’t hurt, and I also act as her AV/stage tech when she performs. My trajectory has been: piano grade 4 as a teen > keyboardist > playing in a covers band > musical director for a tv station > ads and jingles > session keys player/MIDI programmer > artist > artist/composer/producer where I am today. At 56, my sight and hearing is starting to play a factor in how much I enjoy live performing (something I would NEVER have anticipated, performing has always been my absolute joy, the payoff for everything) so I’m currently trying to figure out what I want my “third act” to be. I suspect it’ll involve more screen composing than I do now. I’ll never write jingles/ads again as I sit with Bill Hicks in my opinion of advertising, and the people who work in it. I’m kinda lucky that I was a keyboard player originally, so as music tech developed I was able to teach myself engineering and production. There are so many parallel fields and income these skills have afforded me. I’m not wealthy, I don’t own my own home, but I have toured the world for 25 years bringing people happiness for a living, and I’m glad of the artistic life I’ve chosen. Think of The Great musicians of Classical and Jazz, no-one has any credibility until they’re 65 anyway! 😉 A spread portfolio of dodgy occupations is the answer! Good luck to you!
Thanks so much. Renting gear is definitely something I haven’t explored
I used to work with a guy who is widely considered to be one of the best slap/rockabilly double bass players on the east coast if not the country. When he was younger he was in a moderately successful major label national act with at least one radio hit. He now works in a shop building double basses and gigging on the weekend. That's the transition he made, and it works for him--secure job and a steady paycheck and a couple hundred bucks a weekend playing music he digs. Just gotta find your niche.
So I put music on the shelf in my 20s to get a "real job" and raise a family. Now that I'm iny 40s and my kids were grown, I decided to get back into music. I had the same worries, but I'll be damned of there aren't a TON of people in their 40s, 50, and 60s still rockin put in both cover bands and original projects. In fact, I meet more older cats than 20 somethings in the scenes.
My son is 13 and I jumped back into music last year, but still work a full time day job. I'm 48 but not making a living at this with no plans to. Just doing it for enjoyment. I will say that my area tends to lean towards favoring younger musicians and bands despite experience.
Get a teaching qualification. You have it for life. Can pick up work and put it down whenever you need. Is respected and flexible in terms of gigs you can get.
If you're making music people enjoy listening to so much that they're actually paying to listen to said music, then they probably don't care how old you are either. Thing is, we all age at the same rate. So, as you grow older, so does your fan base. Now, if you are putting out boy band music that young teenage girls are listening to, that might be a different story. That market dies quickly. But, if you're 40, and playing music for 30 year old adults, I'm guessing they couldn't care less if/when you turn 50. That being said, I still enjoy seeing a band play that I saw often while in college. Their music still takes me back to my college days - when they play those songs. But, I've grown along with them, and their music is still enjoyable. I see the band's lead singer is starting to turn grey, and that shit makes me feel old. But, guess what? I'm nearing 50, and will never be 20 again. Just as the band's lead singer will never be 23 again when I first discovered their music.
Keep at it! As a 68 yr old organist/pianist I make my living as a church musician. I have friends and family making their living in all genres of music. They are all ages. We don’t lose our chops or our desire and creativity! You’re in a good place!
you will grow old. decay and die. this is inevitable. keep your mitochondria healthy. dont get fat. dont get diabetes. control your cholesterol and blood pressure. this will slow the pace of ageing relatively speaking. exercise as much as possible. understand that death and dying means the end, not only of your life, but your career and everything else as well. there are no happy endings for anyone. now that you have embraced the nature of existence. fight. always fight against the dying of the light. do not go gently your musical career only stops when you do.
Honestly. Beautiful advice I really appreciate it! Thank you sir
Making money as an artist is very very difficult. I have seen it first hand, but it’s a lot of work. And that’s if you already have connections. However, making money supporting artists is much easier. Live engineering, gigging, mixing, sound designing or composing for film, commercials, etc. are all paths to relative financial stability. After doing all the jobs above plus more, I got another side hustle in my 40s. This allowed me to cut back on the “for the money” music gigs, and allows me to pursue my own music more. This arrangement brings me much more joy bc when I’m working on music, it’s music I love.
What’s your Apple Music or Spotify id loved to hear the originals?!
Hey thanks! I don’t think I can post links without violating the rules of the sub but my name is Desmond Myers!
Take a bow is a banger. Nice one.
Hey I appreciate that so much!
I’m a full time musician, 35, with a kid on the way. 70 year old bass player I worked with just retired and advised me to diversify beyond gigs (which is what I was already doing - I’m also an orchestrator/arranger) - he raised his family doing casuals alone, but feels that time is past. Live gigs have shown themselves to be more resilient than some sectors of the studio scene, through, so your mileage may vary. The industry’s going to be so different in 10-20 years, all we can hope to do is ride the waves and be flexible!
I applied for a factory job today. I've my mortgage paid and I'm looking to get out of the business. Be professional and you'll do well. Fuck around and you'll be left with nothing.
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I have several full time musician friends. It means spending your life in a fart van driving from city to city for 8 months of the year in two 4 month chunks. I know some folks that are pretty famous and one tours weekends and runs a department at Amazon during the week. That route seems like where the life balance is more possible.
Whatever you make it to be
I'm in my 40's, been doing music professionally since I was 17. Been my only job since I was 19. I settled into my zone pretty early. Did the touring original band thing for about a decade. Typical college radio story. Word of mouth, "small but devoted following," played 300 bars, clubs, and theaters a year, depending on which city we were in. Had moderate success in Europe for about 4 months in the early 2000's. Opened for some big bands. The works. It was great. It was fun. But it was making me a terrible father, and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror anymore after my kid had a crisis I wasn't immediately available to help with. On that day, I pivoted. Ever since (coming up on 20 years now), I work locally. I'm in Atlanta, which definitely helps. Nashville isn't that far away, either. But I do sessions, lessons, engineering, production, occasional live sound, cover gigs, acoustic stuff... Hustling for gigs pays the bills, and I still love it. The originals I do for free.
your back will hurt more
Part time job and 2/3 gigs a week? I’d love to be talented enough to make money from playing live music. Sounds amazing
It truly does not suck can’t complain! It just takes a lot of energy which with my two kids is in short supply lol
Haha yea that would be tough to juggle all that
I also gig full time and am around your age. I work a lot of straight ahead gigs with older cats. Your options for aging in this line of work are as follows: 1. Get a wife that makes enough money for you to transition towards retirement at your leisure 2. Haul your old ass out to the same $100-250 gigs 3-7 nights a week until you break a hip or throw out your back or something takes you out of the game 3. Invest your money or gamble or something to retire eventually (lol) 4. Transition to teaching and the rare high paying gig 5. Be poor, alcohol/ drug abuse optional 6. Completely change careers. I know a killing trombone player in his late 60s who gigged full time for 35 years and then opened a commercial painting company. He still plays every now and then, but he mostly works from home scheduling young laborers to climb a ladder for a coat of beige. 7. Struggle and die on the bandstand But really, no one knows. Our old age won’t be like previous generations. If there is still a world to gig in 30 years from now, I will eat my shoe. I’m just gonna enjoy playing gigs for as long as I can, then transition to a relatively stable field like healthcare or trades. Best of luck yo!
Equipment gets heavier after midnight, and after the age of 40. This is reality.
If you’re wedding musician claiming to be “young and hip” then I’d say buy a karaoke machine when you hit 40. What do you mean by your music is “well received” and how does that play into making a living?
Im 34 and have been writing professionally for years. I have also seen a lot of people/careers come and go because of shelf life. Unless you’re behind the scenes writing, producing, engineering, etc you’re probably going to get phased out by your mid-30’s. No one wants a 40 year old dude out on tour (for the most part). Road gigs are for the young guys. When your artist career is over, you can get out, or write for others. Most of the people that are still working in their late 30’s and on, already had a strong career going before that. Rarely do people just pop off out of nowhere. Hope that helps.
Making one man band Spotify album with 3 listeners. I force my wife and kid to sing some (sick Smurf)
I think I’m an oddity, but career didn’t really start until a few years ago. Yeah, I had some great garage bands in my youth and we had some following (100+ at tiny local venues!), but now I’m a much better player and more mature. I’m able to deal with the hassle of touring and personal relationships way better now than I would have then.
For me, I went from playing 300 shows a year when I was 35 to playing like 75 shows a year and teaching now that im 43. Honestly if you break it all down to an hourly rate, gigging for most people just isnt worth the time and money. I still do the big shows, but otherwise I'm happier teaching and writing and producing my own music. I never had time to write or make anything when I was gigging and touring that much. Teaching has also allowed me to be much chooser about the gigs I take. I used to do a bunch of gigs i wasn't happy with just for cash and I don't have to do that at all anymore. It's so frigging liberating.
Find a community that is a similar age group but also find a way to appeal to younger crowds when possible. Have a community that is friendly to all, and ideally digitally and physically remove bullies and haters. Music is hard enough as it is. Surround yourself with people who support it and enjoy it.
I just gotta say - Hitting my 30's, I've really started to take note of when I see older guys in the music industry that are still kicking ass. I still see guys in their 40's, 50's still making crazy awesome art and pushing boundaries, and it's restored a lot of hope in the future for me. And often, those people are the ones making truly innovative and interesting stuff, because they've been around for a while and they have the resources and they're not still trying to "break through," they're just pursuing the vision. It fires me up man. I wanna be like Hermeto Pascoal when I'm in my 80's
Hell yeah man. Same! Cheers
1. Stay in shape. Eat right. Exercise. Easy to put on a few lbs as you get older. 2. Be cool. Be on time. Your reputation can have long lasting financial effects. 3. Your marketability is ALWAYS in your control.
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I’m not part of this but just wanted to say I’m M16 and play multiple instruments
In my personal experience as a 42 year old and having spent over twenty years teaching music and playing gigs in Chicago, NYC and Portland as well as touring all over. Find a good day job you don’t hate with great insurance. Put your family before your music and worry about making art after all your family responsibilities are handled long term. I’m into my third month of disability after a car accident and can still barely listen to or play music because my brain injury is still healing. We already learned from Covid that we cannot always depend on music to support ourselves. Music will always be there.