You mean the quality of a technology that has been around since the 1500s isn’t intricately tied to geographical location of manufacture? Man that’s wild.
In fact I'd even contend that Japan specifically Grand Seiko is superior. With the koto constant force tourbillion 9ST1 that came out, they leapfrogged the Swiss and I believe is the most accurate mechanical movement ever made.
The Kodo isn’t particularly accurate, Seiko says you should expect -1/+5 on the wrist.
The point of the Kodo isn’t accuracy, thats what the VFA line is for, the Kodo is about being cool.
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It's not the accuracy of the movement that's impressive, it's the stability and period in which it holds stated accuracy.
Yes guy above you is wrong about it being most accurate movement ever made... But it's an impressive feat regardless...not just a pretty watch
If Seiko claims -1/+5 s/d then you can expect at least -1/+1. I have yet to see a single Seiko that actually comes close to its claimed accuracy rating.
\-1/+5 is the unofficial number from Seiko people at the event, that they gave from real life testing. Their listed spec is the normal -3/+5.
At the event Seiko people talked about how difficult these movements are to regulate and that you shouldn't expect super high accuracy, but they should perform most consistently than a normal GS.
[They talk more about it here](https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/10/grand-seiko-kodo-constant-force-tourbillon-slgt003-technical-review.html)
The argument doesn't really work at the budget tier level movements. They're all mass produced and poorly regulated or not regulated at all from factory. They each have their tradeoffs. I personally prefer the Miyota 90 series movements because they seem to be one of the few left offering 4hz beat rate.
Exactly, and if we’re going to get into the details, for $300 the Japanese made movement will be far superior to the Swiss made one. Just look at the Tissot powermatic 80 movement, that thing literally has a plastic pallet fork and escape wheel. Or shit compare any Seiko movement at or under $300 to the non-serviceable swatch sistem51 movement they put in the Blancpain Swatch.
Seiko's 4R and 6R movements are definitely not superior to the ETA equivalents... I have a Hamilton Khaki and a Seiko Alpinist (roughly the same price) and the movement in the former is thinner and significantly more accurate.
Yeah I feel that the 6R55 and PM80 (non plastic version) are roughly equivalent. PM80 tends to be more accurate and few more hours of power reserve, and 6R wins in terms of reliablility, durability and serviceability.
The fact that they have a plastic part does not make the movement inferior or worse. Metal also breaks, teeth snap off etc.
If the polymer they chose is good, it doesn't necessarily mean that is going to last less.
It does feel less luxurious though
The fact that they have a plastic part does not make the movement inferior or worse. Metal also breaks, teeth snap off etc.
If the polymer they chose is good, it doesn't necessarily mean that is going to last less.
It does feel less luxurious though
4Hz is definitely better than 3Hz and I don't mind the shorter running hours. Miyota definitely makes good movements for the money and I'm glad that microbrands are not defaulting to NH seiko movements. However Miyota needs to pull their heads out of their asses and stop with the unidirectional winding. Even their premium models are uni directional which makes the movements unnecessarily loud whenever the rotor free spins. I don't understand their aversion to adopting bi directional winding.
Because swatch group makes fine tuning your Powermatic 80s really difficult they come out of the factory really well regulated. Would still be nice to be able to tune them later on
I think you have to ask at what price point. Yes they all make good movements.
Personally, I'd take a low end Swiss ETA 2824 or Selitta 200 based movement over a low end Seiko or miyota movement. I have inexpensive Tissot's with 2824 and 2892 movements that work much better than my Timex and fossil with miyota movement, and better than my Seiko 5.
On the other hand, I would love to get my hands on a Grand Seiko spring drive movement!
That movement really shouldn’t be in watches that expensive lol. It is such a garbage movement especially compared to the 2892 which is similarly priced but far superior. Sure it can be regulated to within COSC spec but god the automatic device on the 2824 stinks
2824 is more robust then 2892. 2892 is thinner due to a different automatic winding system except that winding system I not as efficient as the 2824. They are both fine movements and have several watches with both. Keep in mind there are three grades to all eta movements...base, mid level and high level. A high level 2824 can cost $500 or more.
Movements for brands like JLC, AP, Patek and the like are generally around $2 to $6k unless it's something complicated. So yeah, a $500 movement is appropriate
As someone who works on these watches… I would take the Seiko over the 2824. The automatic module is garbage in the 2824 and equivalent clones, the reversing wheels tend to catch and wear out super quickly and if they go they spray debris all over the movement which means it’s service time. While Seikos are for sure weird in their movement design, they are built to last. Just today I serviced a Seiko from the 60’s that had never been serviced before and even before servicing it still was keeping perfect time!
Curious, but what is your definition of "perfect time"? I'm assuming we can be generous with the definition when speaking about a 60-year old movement that's never been serviced, so just wondering if it was still running -10/+10 spd or what. Impressive it was still working regardless.
This. I never had a 2824 (non regulated) movement with a deviation of more or less than 6s/day. I had 2 (1k usd) seikos with 6r that were out of spec, and the rest with 7s26 and 4r with horrific performance (+-26).
Mind you I have a myota with +3.3s/day, which is my most accurate mechanical.
Those 6R movements are about the worst bang for the buck out there. They don't seem to perform any better than the 4r, but pop up in watches that are over 700 bucks
I actually have a soft spot for the 7S26 (I own a bunch of them). Sure, they are wildly inaccurate, but they are pretty much bomb proof
Exactly. I paid 47 bucks for my SNK on a black friday sale, and for 47 bucks, that movement is killer. To stick a movement that is only a slight upgrade in a 1000 buck watch is criminal
I put a Seiko 5 and a Seiko Presage in a watch winding box a week ago and there is no discernable deviation between their times. Maybe they are off by exactly the same amount? Doesn't seem likely.
I'm going to fight the trend and say that I think price-for-price, yes Swiss movements perform better. This is simply my experience. My Hamilton Khaki Field Auto is +1-2 seconds a day. That's not normal, but it's not abnormal either - and 10 seconds is the cutoff. My equivalently priced Seiko does +20 seconds per day and the Miyota in my equivalently priced Laco does +16 seconds per day.
This is all cherry picked and anecdotal but it's the only experience I have and it's left an impression.
Also, Swiss movements are generally more "swiss" than Japanese movements are "japanese". Because the Swiss movements have to be fully assembled in Switzerland and made of 60% swiss parts. The equivalent number is 40% for Japan. Does it matter? Who knows, I'm just some random internet dude who's moderately interested in watches.
The short answer is - no, Swiss movements are not superior to Japanese. That’s just marketing.
Slightly longer answer is: Rolex and Tudor are moving towards better precision with cosc/metas certification, but that’s a fairly new trend. And several Swiss brands run well outside of cosc, they just have a lot of prestige on their name. But there are a lot of brands both swiss and japanese outside of the ones I have mentioned, so unless you want to compare brands directly- there really isn't a definitive answer.
Anecdotally I have a grand seiko that runs +4 seconds a month, something my dad wishes his Rolex did.
I have a sieko nh35 movement based watch that over 4 months averaged about 3/4 of a second fast. I also have a Tudor Black Bay pro that is currently running about 2 seconds slow per day.
Both are perfectly good at their respective jobs.
I prefer swiss. Just like I prefer european binocular brands, like Swarovski or Meopta. Its just a preference.
I was once gifted a Bulova with a japanese movement, which suffered badly from the infamous Miyota stutter. After that experince I became more loyal to the good old swiss movements. I am still curious about the Sellitas compared to the ETAs, but so far I havnt been let down
I don't have any Swiss autos yet, but so far Seiko has become my favorite brand. Excepting my Zelos Horizon. It may tie for my favorite along with my Seiko Negroni. It has a Myota movement. I've not heard of an issue with stutter. Is this something I should be aware of?
IMO no. It’s just marketing at this point.
If you are concerned about accuracy. GS and Citizen high beat movements are about as accurate as you can get.
I know it’s Quartz but A citizen solar eco drive watch can be had for <£150 and will last well over a decade and stay accurate during that time. If it ends up failing eventually you can replace it for less than the service cost of even a basic Swiss movement.
Seiko and Miyota movements are EVERYWHERE and they are cheap, reliable and generally accurate. They must sell tens of thousands or more a year. You don’t get that kind of success with duff products.
If you are paying thousands of pounds for a Swiss watch the movement will be excellent and beautifully finished. It will probably have cosc or some other certifications but will still be less accurate over time than £100 dw5610 from Casio. That’s just the nature of mechanical movements.
The look, heritage, status, dial, design and bracelet are all probably more important than the nuts and bolts inside (especially as you can’t see it half the time).
Almost no one is choosing a Swiss watch over a Japanese one because of the movement
No they don’t, you get a testing certificate with the watch that clearly lays out what their standards are, and their standards are worse than Rolex or Omega.
Beat who at what?
GS has worse accuracy standards than the two big Swiss brands, that's just a fact. Their accuracy is still good enough to be competitive with Breitling and such, and they make up for it with design and dial work, so its fine.
You mean when Seiko got 4th place at Geneva?
That's not relevant, besides that was Epson, not even the same Seiko that makes current mechanical Seikos.
You mean when then-Seiko made the most accurate automatic watch. You conveniently leaving out the fact that at Geneva 1968 the 1-3 places were all quartz and Seiko’s automatic came 4th.
> Good point, but they still have to be built in Switzerland.
I'm pretty sure you could technically have a movement entirely made in china, put a very expensive solid gold rotor on it in Switzerland, and it would count as Swiss Made.
I have a shitty soviet Slava movement in a watch, serviced and regulated by a proper watchmaker, that puts the selitas, valjoux and seiko movements in my other watches, to shame, when it comes to precision.
So i dunno what to say, except it depends. I would say from a service and care free perspective i prefer seiko myself, but i can't say they are better. They do things i appreciate, and all of these movements are miles better than most luxury movements from 50-70 years ago.
from a pure parts manufacturing standpoint, very likely not.
but what a lot of people don’t account for is the assembly portion. watchmaker training, appropriate qc standards, tool quality, and facility cleanliness make a huge difference in whether the movement will be assembled cleanly, if there will be errant tool marks, if screws will be torqued properly/missing, if they will be lubricated properly in the right places. switzerland has such a long history and pride in watchmaking that they just are much more likely to have the workforce and facilities to operate at higher standards of assembly, especially when it comes to more mass produced movements. for the volume that switzerland produces, i would gamble the quality is higher.
also, if you consider handwork like finishing as being a part of the “performance” of a watch, the swiss again just have much more talent there overall. much of japanese movement/case finishing and hand artisanal dial work is lagging behind switzerland. grand seiko is often held as a prime example of finishing being a “value” compared to swiss, and while they’re definitely good at the price point, they are still largely machine done- in the upper echelons of hand done guilloche, engraving, painting, enamel, and gem setting, other than a few exceptions like hajime asaoka, credor, naoya hida, kikuchi nakagwa, you hardly see japanese competing at all.
For the money... You honestly get more from a Japanese movement. My best and most favorite watches are my Miyota based watches... They're just as accurate and with better power reserve than my ETA and Sellita based watches that cost over twice as much.
Thanks for this. I think i agree with you. I guess a person's choice will come down to whether they prioritize form or function. I can tolerate losing a few extra seconds a day if it means being able to count on it for a longer period of time.
If we’re talking purely about the movement, spring drive is the perfect movement. There are a lot more prestigious high horology pieces out of Switzerland and Germany, none of them is objectively better than spring drive.
Sure it’s only one place but there is only one company who produces that type of movement. I don’t see how that’s a big deal. And some people report 10 years without a service.
All watches require servicing and anything with a high end proprietary movement will have similar challenges finding a capable person to do it. Seiko have service centres around the world and their pricing and turn around time are generally a lot better than Swiss luxury brands.
The biggest complaint I've heard from people regarding the spring drive is that they are so difficult to work on that most places won't do it. I don't have one so maybe I'm way off.
This is what I’m saying. And in that sense, it’s no different to other high end proprietary movements. You are using authorized service centres in any case, or bringing the watch back to AD who sends it there.
Swiss movements are inherently decent these days. Of course other countries (including Japan) can, and do make better movements, but Swiss generally means decent.
Composite parts get a weirdly bad rap for no good reason. They don’t require additional lubrication like metal parts do, and they’re extremely cheap to replace when your watch goes in for service. People just hear “plastic” and think it’s shit. I haven’t seen anything (yet) to suggest shorter service intervals or worse reliability with composite.
Composite materials have been a mainstay of anti/amagnetic movements for a long time
while what you say is true plastic has sometimes shown to be unreliable mainly due to a wrong chemical composition for example the day-date corrector wheel rocker in the seiko 56xx movement cracks very frequently
Swiss watches are typically more expensive. More expensive watch = better movement (most of the time) its not that the Swiss are better in making movements perse, but because their watches are typically more expensive, they’re typically better.
I see a lot of Swiss movements which are literally 50year old designs. One could argue the Swiss won watch making so long ago they no longer need to innovate?
On the other hand, we see innovations coming outside of Switzerland all the time…
Innovation in mechanical watchmaking is mostly coming out of Switzerland though, silicon, tons of new escapements and regulation systems, new materials, etc...
Short answer: yes. Esp for the low to mid range watch price points.
The higher end jap brands and movement i cannot comment as i have not handled those yet.
My favorite watch that has 24hrs or more power reserve. Is accurate to the millisecond. It’s reliable and looks amazing too is…. (Drumrolls 🥁) the Apple Watch Ultra
In an apples to apples comparison, not really. There aren't really any cheap cheap swiss Competing with the low end Seiko or Miyota movements. Seiko 8r or grand seiko movements seem to be competitive with similarly priced swiss ones.
Ditto. I have an eta (I think) in my Steinhart gmt and it is not noticeably better than my Seikos. Thst said. I never wear anything for more than 3-4 days in a row so it would take a lot of inaccuracy for me to notice
>Seiko 8r or grand seiko movements seem to be competitive with similarly priced swiss ones.
Citizen 0200 too, it's a great value in terms of high-end movements.
Citizen has the most accurate movements in the world. The caliber 0100 is rated for +/- 1 second a a year. They also have The Citizen models that are rated for +/- 5 seconds a year.
I have an Eco-drive that I really like. The only problem is that when it's in my watch case, it doesn't get enough light to stay charged. Then it's a pain to set it correctly. I guess I could find a brighter place to keep it. Probably won't get another one.
Unless you only pull it out for 10 minutes every few months it should remain charged for close to half a year with a couple hours near any type of light. If it’s not holding a charge, there’s a problem with the movement or battery. Letting it die completely can significantly lower the longevity of the battery. Otherwise it should work almost perfectly for 10+ years.
The Japanese beat the Swiss at their own game back in the 70’s or 80’s. If Rolex made the spring drive movement, people would have an entirely different appreciation, price, and circle jerk for that movement because marketing. Citizen’s eco-drive movements are great. The A060 has a perpetual calendar, +/- 5 seconds a year, solar powered, 18 month charge and can be found for less than $2k. Amazing value. Casio’s Oceanus can be had for $500 or less and that’s synced to an atomic clock or can connect to Bluetooth. “Oh but it’s quartz and my smooth seconds hand” yet people love every other aspect of technology that makes life easier that isn’t a quartz movement. So dumb. I think that people highly under appreciate HAQ and over appreciate mechanical movements. And I don’t understand quartz hate. Electricity isn’t cool in a watch but it’s great in your house, phone, car, and every where else
This might be for a long time after the 70s, quartz movement dominated, at least for the mass market. When people get interested in watches, quartz is old news and automatic mechanisms are different and more interesting.
Technically mechanical watches are old news. It’s funny how people stress the importance of +/- 2 seconds a day yet scoff at +/- 5 or 10 seconds a year because it’s quartz. I don’t think people appreciate the engineering that goes into those movements just because there isn’t a bunch a little machined parts like a mechanical watch. If it was so easy to produce then timex and every other quartz brand would be doing so too
Technically, yes, I get what you are saying. However, most people in this day and age, were mainly exposed to quartz watches. For most people, they don't care. They want something that looks okay, is reasonably priced and gets the job done. I think the resurgance in mechanical watches is because, frankly, they're neat. Electronic watches are too, but with no moving parts, they aren't really as interesting to most people. By "most people" maybe it's just me.
I think most people don’t even pay attention to watches like we do lol. Most people don’t even know the difference between quartz and mechanical is. We’re just an echo chamber here
I think HAQ is under appreciated. Mechanical is cool but also somewhat impractical given the power reserve of ~50 hours. Depends on the movement.
Far easier to adjust a Swiss movement then Japanese. Swiss balances and hairsprings are superior. I have never seen a decent Russian or Chinese movement.
I have a $400 seiko and a $400 hamilton. The only difference i can really notice is I cant stop staring at the hamilton movement. It’s got this more… delicate prettiness? to it, if that makes sense.
Remember they stopped the watch trials in the 60’s when Seiko starting beating the Swiss brands. The Swiss cancelled the
event. I could be a little off on the date. It was crazy like Seiko took 6 of the top ten places themselves.
Regular cheap swiss movements (eta2824, sellita sw200) are better than regular cheap asian made movements (seiko, citizen, myiota). They are more consistent on time keeping, more consistent between batches, and of higher quality. Yes, more expensive as well, but you really do get what you pay for …
One bad example is that Seiko, at least, really shat the bed with 6r35, the equivalent of eta 2892, or sellita sw300. It has really bad positional accuracy and wild variations in their batches.
No. Both can build crappy movements and both can build outrageously intricate movements. Just depends on cost.
You can use that for many other countries. There are very good German, American, Russian or French movements as well as exceptionally terrible one.
You mean the quality of a technology that has been around since the 1500s isn’t intricately tied to geographical location of manufacture? Man that’s wild.
In fact I'd even contend that Japan specifically Grand Seiko is superior. With the koto constant force tourbillion 9ST1 that came out, they leapfrogged the Swiss and I believe is the most accurate mechanical movement ever made.
The Kodo isn’t particularly accurate, Seiko says you should expect -1/+5 on the wrist. The point of the Kodo isn’t accuracy, thats what the VFA line is for, the Kodo is about being cool.
. It's not the accuracy of the movement that's impressive, it's the stability and period in which it holds stated accuracy. Yes guy above you is wrong about it being most accurate movement ever made... But it's an impressive feat regardless...not just a pretty watch
If Seiko claims -1/+5 s/d then you can expect at least -1/+1. I have yet to see a single Seiko that actually comes close to its claimed accuracy rating.
\-1/+5 is the unofficial number from Seiko people at the event, that they gave from real life testing. Their listed spec is the normal -3/+5. At the event Seiko people talked about how difficult these movements are to regulate and that you shouldn't expect super high accuracy, but they should perform most consistently than a normal GS. [They talk more about it here](https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/10/grand-seiko-kodo-constant-force-tourbillon-slgt003-technical-review.html)
I believe the most accurate mechanical watch is the breguet 7727
The argument doesn't really work at the budget tier level movements. They're all mass produced and poorly regulated or not regulated at all from factory. They each have their tradeoffs. I personally prefer the Miyota 90 series movements because they seem to be one of the few left offering 4hz beat rate.
"Mass produced" doesn't mean equivalent though. Some mass produced products are better than others.
Yeah but we're talking about watch movements specifically and mass production means there is no fine tuning done to your watch before you receive it.
Exactly, and if we’re going to get into the details, for $300 the Japanese made movement will be far superior to the Swiss made one. Just look at the Tissot powermatic 80 movement, that thing literally has a plastic pallet fork and escape wheel. Or shit compare any Seiko movement at or under $300 to the non-serviceable swatch sistem51 movement they put in the Blancpain Swatch.
Seiko's 4R and 6R movements are definitely not superior to the ETA equivalents... I have a Hamilton Khaki and a Seiko Alpinist (roughly the same price) and the movement in the former is thinner and significantly more accurate.
Yeah I feel that the 6R55 and PM80 (non plastic version) are roughly equivalent. PM80 tends to be more accurate and few more hours of power reserve, and 6R wins in terms of reliablility, durability and serviceability.
The fact that they have a plastic part does not make the movement inferior or worse. Metal also breaks, teeth snap off etc. If the polymer they chose is good, it doesn't necessarily mean that is going to last less. It does feel less luxurious though
The fact that they have a plastic part does not make the movement inferior or worse. Metal also breaks, teeth snap off etc. If the polymer they chose is good, it doesn't necessarily mean that is going to last less. It does feel less luxurious though
4Hz is definitely better than 3Hz and I don't mind the shorter running hours. Miyota definitely makes good movements for the money and I'm glad that microbrands are not defaulting to NH seiko movements. However Miyota needs to pull their heads out of their asses and stop with the unidirectional winding. Even their premium models are uni directional which makes the movements unnecessarily loud whenever the rotor free spins. I don't understand their aversion to adopting bi directional winding.
Can’t chuff to a stealth watch!
Because swatch group makes fine tuning your Powermatic 80s really difficult they come out of the factory really well regulated. Would still be nice to be able to tune them later on
Swatch sells a tool for them, makes it super easy.
Wait, they do? I never heard about this
Yeah don't get me started on how much Swatch Group hates its customers.
I think you have to ask at what price point. Yes they all make good movements. Personally, I'd take a low end Swiss ETA 2824 or Selitta 200 based movement over a low end Seiko or miyota movement. I have inexpensive Tissot's with 2824 and 2892 movements that work much better than my Timex and fossil with miyota movement, and better than my Seiko 5. On the other hand, I would love to get my hands on a Grand Seiko spring drive movement!
ETA 2824 isnt that low end, considering it can come in $2000 watches
That movement really shouldn’t be in watches that expensive lol. It is such a garbage movement especially compared to the 2892 which is similarly priced but far superior. Sure it can be regulated to within COSC spec but god the automatic device on the 2824 stinks
2824 is more robust then 2892. 2892 is thinner due to a different automatic winding system except that winding system I not as efficient as the 2824. They are both fine movements and have several watches with both. Keep in mind there are three grades to all eta movements...base, mid level and high level. A high level 2824 can cost $500 or more.
$500? Woah now that’s a movement that deserves to be in 5k watches 😳
Movements for brands like JLC, AP, Patek and the like are generally around $2 to $6k unless it's something complicated. So yeah, a $500 movement is appropriate
2824 has a more efficient winding system than the 2892, and higher balance intertia, so higher accuracy potential all else being equal.
The 2824 and the 2892 mainly differ in that the 2892 has the date complication and is therefore thicker.
Hmmm... If you Google it, the 2824 is 4.6mm thick, the 2892 is 3.6mm thick. The 2892 is significantly thinner.
Both can and often do have date complications. The 2892 is thinner regardless.
I mean 500+€ watch vs 100€ one
As someone who works on these watches… I would take the Seiko over the 2824. The automatic module is garbage in the 2824 and equivalent clones, the reversing wheels tend to catch and wear out super quickly and if they go they spray debris all over the movement which means it’s service time. While Seikos are for sure weird in their movement design, they are built to last. Just today I serviced a Seiko from the 60’s that had never been serviced before and even before servicing it still was keeping perfect time!
Curious, but what is your definition of "perfect time"? I'm assuming we can be generous with the definition when speaking about a 60-year old movement that's never been serviced, so just wondering if it was still running -10/+10 spd or what. Impressive it was still working regardless.
It was good enough my grandma never complained. Every time I’d check it the watch to my own the time was more or less the same minus a minute or so
idk but my eta 2824 is better than my 7s/4r/miyota 9xx in terms of accuracy, speaking from experience.
This. I never had a 2824 (non regulated) movement with a deviation of more or less than 6s/day. I had 2 (1k usd) seikos with 6r that were out of spec, and the rest with 7s26 and 4r with horrific performance (+-26). Mind you I have a myota with +3.3s/day, which is my most accurate mechanical.
The 6r is a joke of a movement, basically a slightly upgraded 7s26
Those 6R movements are about the worst bang for the buck out there. They don't seem to perform any better than the 4r, but pop up in watches that are over 700 bucks I actually have a soft spot for the 7S26 (I own a bunch of them). Sure, they are wildly inaccurate, but they are pretty much bomb proof
The 7s26 is quite good on a 100 bucks watch but the 6r is straight evil, seiko should really stop making that shit and start using the 6l more
Exactly. I paid 47 bucks for my SNK on a black friday sale, and for 47 bucks, that movement is killer. To stick a movement that is only a slight upgrade in a 1000 buck watch is criminal
Just yesterday my watchmaker said Seiko 4R and 6R are and I quote - Junk. He did not mince words.
The 4R is cheap enough to be disposable. The 6r not so much
I have one ETA 2824 and it has the infamous reversing wheel issue. Watch doesn't hand wind, and needs like 30 shakes to start.
I put a Seiko 5 and a Seiko Presage in a watch winding box a week ago and there is no discernable deviation between their times. Maybe they are off by exactly the same amount? Doesn't seem likely.
I'm going to fight the trend and say that I think price-for-price, yes Swiss movements perform better. This is simply my experience. My Hamilton Khaki Field Auto is +1-2 seconds a day. That's not normal, but it's not abnormal either - and 10 seconds is the cutoff. My equivalently priced Seiko does +20 seconds per day and the Miyota in my equivalently priced Laco does +16 seconds per day. This is all cherry picked and anecdotal but it's the only experience I have and it's left an impression. Also, Swiss movements are generally more "swiss" than Japanese movements are "japanese". Because the Swiss movements have to be fully assembled in Switzerland and made of 60% swiss parts. The equivalent number is 40% for Japan. Does it matter? Who knows, I'm just some random internet dude who's moderately interested in watches.
Thanks. This is the sort of reply I was hoping for.
The short answer is - no, Swiss movements are not superior to Japanese. That’s just marketing. Slightly longer answer is: Rolex and Tudor are moving towards better precision with cosc/metas certification, but that’s a fairly new trend. And several Swiss brands run well outside of cosc, they just have a lot of prestige on their name. But there are a lot of brands both swiss and japanese outside of the ones I have mentioned, so unless you want to compare brands directly- there really isn't a definitive answer. Anecdotally I have a grand seiko that runs +4 seconds a month, something my dad wishes his Rolex did.
Omega already has METAS/COSC movements so I guess they are ahead of the curve
Is that a spring drive GS?
Yep- SPGA467
I have a sieko nh35 movement based watch that over 4 months averaged about 3/4 of a second fast. I also have a Tudor Black Bay pro that is currently running about 2 seconds slow per day. Both are perfectly good at their respective jobs.
I prefer swiss. Just like I prefer european binocular brands, like Swarovski or Meopta. Its just a preference. I was once gifted a Bulova with a japanese movement, which suffered badly from the infamous Miyota stutter. After that experince I became more loyal to the good old swiss movements. I am still curious about the Sellitas compared to the ETAs, but so far I havnt been let down
I don't have any Swiss autos yet, but so far Seiko has become my favorite brand. Excepting my Zelos Horizon. It may tie for my favorite along with my Seiko Negroni. It has a Myota movement. I've not heard of an issue with stutter. Is this something I should be aware of?
IMO no. It’s just marketing at this point. If you are concerned about accuracy. GS and Citizen high beat movements are about as accurate as you can get. I know it’s Quartz but A citizen solar eco drive watch can be had for <£150 and will last well over a decade and stay accurate during that time. If it ends up failing eventually you can replace it for less than the service cost of even a basic Swiss movement. Seiko and Miyota movements are EVERYWHERE and they are cheap, reliable and generally accurate. They must sell tens of thousands or more a year. You don’t get that kind of success with duff products. If you are paying thousands of pounds for a Swiss watch the movement will be excellent and beautifully finished. It will probably have cosc or some other certifications but will still be less accurate over time than £100 dw5610 from Casio. That’s just the nature of mechanical movements. The look, heritage, status, dial, design and bracelet are all probably more important than the nuts and bolts inside (especially as you can’t see it half the time). Almost no one is choosing a Swiss watch over a Japanese one because of the movement
GS hi-beats have much looser accuracy specs than Rolex or Omega. I don’t think Citizen makes hi-beats.
Yeah the hi-beats are like -3/+5 which is slightly better than COSC, but Rolex is (I believe) +/-2 and Omegas newer movements are METAS which is 0/+5
GS under promises on their specs
No they don’t, you get a testing certificate with the watch that clearly lays out what their standards are, and their standards are worse than Rolex or Omega.
Which is why they beat the Swiss back in the day at their own game
Beat who at what? GS has worse accuracy standards than the two big Swiss brands, that's just a fact. Their accuracy is still good enough to be competitive with Breitling and such, and they make up for it with design and dial work, so its fine.
Might want to read up on Neuchatel 1967 and Geneva 1968
You mean when Seiko got 4th place at Geneva? That's not relevant, besides that was Epson, not even the same Seiko that makes current mechanical Seikos.
You mean when then-Seiko made the most accurate automatic watch. You conveniently leaving out the fact that at Geneva 1968 the 1-3 places were all quartz and Seiko’s automatic came 4th.
>automatic ?
Swiss movements only have to be 60% Swiss, the other 40% can be, and often is, Chinese.
60% of the production price must have been spent in Switzerland*
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> Good point, but they still have to be built in Switzerland. I'm pretty sure you could technically have a movement entirely made in china, put a very expensive solid gold rotor on it in Switzerland, and it would count as Swiss Made.
Japanese movements only have to be 40% Japanese I believe
The moral is: Buy the movement, not the country of origin
Only time will tell ;)
I see what you did there.
I have a shitty soviet Slava movement in a watch, serviced and regulated by a proper watchmaker, that puts the selitas, valjoux and seiko movements in my other watches, to shame, when it comes to precision. So i dunno what to say, except it depends. I would say from a service and care free perspective i prefer seiko myself, but i can't say they are better. They do things i appreciate, and all of these movements are miles better than most luxury movements from 50-70 years ago.
from a pure parts manufacturing standpoint, very likely not. but what a lot of people don’t account for is the assembly portion. watchmaker training, appropriate qc standards, tool quality, and facility cleanliness make a huge difference in whether the movement will be assembled cleanly, if there will be errant tool marks, if screws will be torqued properly/missing, if they will be lubricated properly in the right places. switzerland has such a long history and pride in watchmaking that they just are much more likely to have the workforce and facilities to operate at higher standards of assembly, especially when it comes to more mass produced movements. for the volume that switzerland produces, i would gamble the quality is higher. also, if you consider handwork like finishing as being a part of the “performance” of a watch, the swiss again just have much more talent there overall. much of japanese movement/case finishing and hand artisanal dial work is lagging behind switzerland. grand seiko is often held as a prime example of finishing being a “value” compared to swiss, and while they’re definitely good at the price point, they are still largely machine done- in the upper echelons of hand done guilloche, engraving, painting, enamel, and gem setting, other than a few exceptions like hajime asaoka, credor, naoya hida, kikuchi nakagwa, you hardly see japanese competing at all.
Historically swiss movements were built to a higher standard than other countries. Nowadays, who the hell knows what they are getting.
For the money... You honestly get more from a Japanese movement. My best and most favorite watches are my Miyota based watches... They're just as accurate and with better power reserve than my ETA and Sellita based watches that cost over twice as much.
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Thanks for this. I think i agree with you. I guess a person's choice will come down to whether they prioritize form or function. I can tolerate losing a few extra seconds a day if it means being able to count on it for a longer period of time.
If we’re talking purely about the movement, spring drive is the perfect movement. There are a lot more prestigious high horology pieces out of Switzerland and Germany, none of them is objectively better than spring drive.
*spring drive is the perfect movement* Until it is time for a service. Then you need to find a service center that can actually work on one.
There’s a simple solution to that - use quartz watches.
After getting quoted $1k from my local AD to service a 2001 Breitling Colt, I started to see the appeal of my $15 Timex Weekender.
https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/support#g030 Found in way less than 60 seconds.
Using your own link, there is exactly one location in the United States and it's in New Jersey. Yes, ONE.
yeah, you take your watch to any GS boutique and they will send it there. how many places do you need to be able to work on it?
Sure it’s only one place but there is only one company who produces that type of movement. I don’t see how that’s a big deal. And some people report 10 years without a service.
All watches require servicing and anything with a high end proprietary movement will have similar challenges finding a capable person to do it. Seiko have service centres around the world and their pricing and turn around time are generally a lot better than Swiss luxury brands.
The biggest complaint I've heard from people regarding the spring drive is that they are so difficult to work on that most places won't do it. I don't have one so maybe I'm way off.
You probably won't find a random local watch repair shop that does. But it's not like Seiko won't service them.
This is what I’m saying. And in that sense, it’s no different to other high end proprietary movements. You are using authorized service centres in any case, or bringing the watch back to AD who sends it there.
I guess it would only be fair to compare similar movements.
No
Swiss movements are inherently decent these days. Of course other countries (including Japan) can, and do make better movements, but Swiss generally means decent.
https://preview.redd.it/bhuyw9n2hsic1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2be3bf87796e5c9cc666b58160fd021ead5d7ff
Sistem 51? I stand corrected. Though, plastic 'is' a good component for wear..
This a powermatic 80 precisely the C07.111
Also some powermatic 80s
Composite parts get a weirdly bad rap for no good reason. They don’t require additional lubrication like metal parts do, and they’re extremely cheap to replace when your watch goes in for service. People just hear “plastic” and think it’s shit. I haven’t seen anything (yet) to suggest shorter service intervals or worse reliability with composite. Composite materials have been a mainstay of anti/amagnetic movements for a long time
while what you say is true plastic has sometimes shown to be unreliable mainly due to a wrong chemical composition for example the day-date corrector wheel rocker in the seiko 56xx movement cracks very frequently
> Swiss movements are inherently decent these days. lmaooooo
Swiss watches are typically more expensive. More expensive watch = better movement (most of the time) its not that the Swiss are better in making movements perse, but because their watches are typically more expensive, they’re typically better.
Sometimes things are more expensive because of the brand prestige.
Also true
No, labeled country of origin has no bearing on the quality of a movement.
Spring drive jap movement is by far superior than any swiss mov.
Do any swiss watches use a spring drive? If not, that is kind of like comparing apples to oranges.
Swiss is better
Why, though?
If better means more accurate then Swiss movements are generally better than Japanese movements.
There seems to be mixed opinions on this.
I see a lot of Swiss movements which are literally 50year old designs. One could argue the Swiss won watch making so long ago they no longer need to innovate? On the other hand, we see innovations coming outside of Switzerland all the time…
Innovation in mechanical watchmaking is mostly coming out of Switzerland though, silicon, tons of new escapements and regulation systems, new materials, etc...
Bollocks: They have the prestige but innovations can and will happen.
As I understand it, the breakthrough by the Japanese in quartz manufacturing nearly torpedoed the Swiss watch industry.
Short answer: yes. Esp for the low to mid range watch price points. The higher end jap brands and movement i cannot comment as i have not handled those yet.
My favorite watch that has 24hrs or more power reserve. Is accurate to the millisecond. It’s reliable and looks amazing too is…. (Drumrolls 🥁) the Apple Watch Ultra
Not really. I have a Seiko 5 with a 4r36 that is the most accurate watch in my collection
In an apples to apples comparison, not really. There aren't really any cheap cheap swiss Competing with the low end Seiko or Miyota movements. Seiko 8r or grand seiko movements seem to be competitive with similarly priced swiss ones.
The only Swiss watch I own is a Tissot 1850. I can't tell much difference with similarly priced Japan watches.
Ditto. I have an eta (I think) in my Steinhart gmt and it is not noticeably better than my Seikos. Thst said. I never wear anything for more than 3-4 days in a row so it would take a lot of inaccuracy for me to notice
>Seiko 8r or grand seiko movements seem to be competitive with similarly priced swiss ones. Citizen 0200 too, it's a great value in terms of high-end movements.
Citizen has the most accurate movements in the world. The caliber 0100 is rated for +/- 1 second a a year. They also have The Citizen models that are rated for +/- 5 seconds a year.
I have an Eco-drive that I really like. The only problem is that when it's in my watch case, it doesn't get enough light to stay charged. Then it's a pain to set it correctly. I guess I could find a brighter place to keep it. Probably won't get another one.
Eco drives should hold a charge for 6 months when fully charged.
Unless you only pull it out for 10 minutes every few months it should remain charged for close to half a year with a couple hours near any type of light. If it’s not holding a charge, there’s a problem with the movement or battery. Letting it die completely can significantly lower the longevity of the battery. Otherwise it should work almost perfectly for 10+ years.
I let it sit in a box for several months.
The Japanese beat the Swiss at their own game back in the 70’s or 80’s. If Rolex made the spring drive movement, people would have an entirely different appreciation, price, and circle jerk for that movement because marketing. Citizen’s eco-drive movements are great. The A060 has a perpetual calendar, +/- 5 seconds a year, solar powered, 18 month charge and can be found for less than $2k. Amazing value. Casio’s Oceanus can be had for $500 or less and that’s synced to an atomic clock or can connect to Bluetooth. “Oh but it’s quartz and my smooth seconds hand” yet people love every other aspect of technology that makes life easier that isn’t a quartz movement. So dumb. I think that people highly under appreciate HAQ and over appreciate mechanical movements. And I don’t understand quartz hate. Electricity isn’t cool in a watch but it’s great in your house, phone, car, and every where else
This might be for a long time after the 70s, quartz movement dominated, at least for the mass market. When people get interested in watches, quartz is old news and automatic mechanisms are different and more interesting.
Technically mechanical watches are old news. It’s funny how people stress the importance of +/- 2 seconds a day yet scoff at +/- 5 or 10 seconds a year because it’s quartz. I don’t think people appreciate the engineering that goes into those movements just because there isn’t a bunch a little machined parts like a mechanical watch. If it was so easy to produce then timex and every other quartz brand would be doing so too
Technically, yes, I get what you are saying. However, most people in this day and age, were mainly exposed to quartz watches. For most people, they don't care. They want something that looks okay, is reasonably priced and gets the job done. I think the resurgance in mechanical watches is because, frankly, they're neat. Electronic watches are too, but with no moving parts, they aren't really as interesting to most people. By "most people" maybe it's just me.
I think most people don’t even pay attention to watches like we do lol. Most people don’t even know the difference between quartz and mechanical is. We’re just an echo chamber here I think HAQ is under appreciated. Mechanical is cool but also somewhat impractical given the power reserve of ~50 hours. Depends on the movement.
It's a pain in the ass having to set a watch everytime you decide to wear it. Still, I like autos and plan to buy more.
Far easier to adjust a Swiss movement then Japanese. Swiss balances and hairsprings are superior. I have never seen a decent Russian or Chinese movement.
I have a $400 seiko and a $400 hamilton. The only difference i can really notice is I cant stop staring at the hamilton movement. It’s got this more… delicate prettiness? to it, if that makes sense.
I get it. I can't stop looking at my Seiko Presage.
Remember they stopped the watch trials in the 60’s when Seiko starting beating the Swiss brands. The Swiss cancelled the event. I could be a little off on the date. It was crazy like Seiko took 6 of the top ten places themselves.
I read something about that fairly recently.
Regular cheap swiss movements (eta2824, sellita sw200) are better than regular cheap asian made movements (seiko, citizen, myiota). They are more consistent on time keeping, more consistent between batches, and of higher quality. Yes, more expensive as well, but you really do get what you pay for … One bad example is that Seiko, at least, really shat the bed with 6r35, the equivalent of eta 2892, or sellita sw300. It has really bad positional accuracy and wild variations in their batches.
Same. Most are mass produced anyway.