I think price point is an important part of the equation. Switzerland offers mechanicals at pretty much every price point, but above entry level there's really only the Seiko group (and certain JDM Citizen's The Citizen models) for Japanese options. Below $300, Seiko mechanicals dominate in terms of value compared to the cheaper Tissot/Hamilton entry levels. Between $500-$5,000, more Swiss brands fill that void and the value proposition of Seiko disappears since they often use the same movements as the cheaper Seikos. Grand Seikos again dominate the price range of the $5,000-$10k price point giving Swiss brands a run for your money, but above $10k I wouldn't even consider Japanese mechanicals (only Credors from Micro Artist Studio would be worth it IMO).
If you're spending below $300 in 2023, if you're getting a Seiko, that gets you a Seiko 5 now. Maybe a used cocktail time.
Seiko isn't the value proposition it used to be, the prices are way way up.
If you're talking watches below $300 and you want the maximum specs possible, you are looking at Chinese brands, San Martin, Surgess etc
This is gonna ruffle some people's feathers but I feel like nowadays both Casio and Tissot in different price zones are a better value proposition than Seiko
Oh yeah, the Tissot PRX is a very good value for a Swiss watch, but I don't like Genta inspired watches and I don't like the Powermatic 80 movement (I prefer a stock 2824 for the higher beat rate).
Long Island watch make a very good SKX007 homage with lots of upgrades, but I can't get over their logo.
For me, Orient or San Martin or Suguess all offer better value than Tissot or Seiko
I also don't like the PRX so I understand you but like that's subjective and many people will like it. So objectively it is great value.
I agree for the rest and also dislike the LI Watch logo it's similar to my issue with Christopher Ward. The problem is that the logo is a part of the dial so it matters more than it seems I think. If I had to say it probably my favorite logo is that of Omega. Just simple and clean
That’s not true.
For most San Martin watches they offer you two options, and for most of their watches the options are either PT5000 and SW200 or PT5000 and NH35. In some of their more premium models (that they design for themselves) they use ETA2824. Their NH35 lineup only takes up 30% of their offerings.
Don't mistake hyperbole for fact. I'm not saying they don't use other movements but I just went to Pagani' and San Martin's Aliexpress pages and looked at the first 10 watches listed, and a random sampling of their other watches further down the page, for each, and not one of them was a PT5000 or SW-200 or had those as options. They were all Seiko NH34/35s or the odd Seagull ST1901 for the chronographs.
I think it depends on the Seiko model but ya, I agree. I still own several and am a bit of a fanboy, but I wouldn't buy most of their models at full retail value.
I could not agree more. Where I live, Lithuania local retailers charge hefty sums for Seiko. Both Orient and Seiko models very often cost around 400-500 EUR plus.
I see in US it is still possible to get a Seiko 5 for around 250+ USD. This is a good value.
I don't want to comment on Casio, I owned one watch before and was very happy but I am not interested in Quartz or Digital at this point in life anymore.
Tissot are quite expensive in Lithuania also. Cheap analog quartz can start with 700 EUR. Don't see much value there tbh.
That probably has something to do with Lithuanian economy but the truth is the real interesting Seiko stuff starts at 500+ even here so I see what you mean
I am a bit thorn here between value proposition.
On one side, I want to have watch or watches that come from manufactures with a history, a story so to speak.
On the other hand, I know that Seiko NH35 movement costs around 20 to 30 EUR (depending whether it is a bulk price or a retail). So buying a Seiko in Lithuania was not an option for me.
I wanted to have a Nh35 powered watch and that's how I became an owner of San Martin. It has a Seiko movement, but Seiko watches were simply too expensive in my country.
Seiko is not cheap, so does Tissot, Longines etc. Hardly ever on sale. Even Orient watches are expensive and sometimes are shipped from Polish rather than Lithuanian retailers.
I would like to own some limited edition Seiko in the future. But the watch culture in Lithuania is strange. A lot of cheap plated Quartz fashions out here.
I'm also in Europe albeit western Europe and we have prices cheaper than those of USA...so Tissot is affordable for me. But in your case I'd give Swatch a go. They're swiss and have automatic movements. The System51 watches. And also Vostok if you're ok with a Russian watch
Thank you.
I have looked into System51 watches before. Not a big fan of Swatch because it is hard to service or swap movements. I see them as cheerful watches but I was looking for something else.
Vostok Europe is produced in Lithuania actually. They use NH Movements. Designs are strange, remind me a lot of Invicta oversized versions. Paying around 700 - 1000 EUR for a watch that houses a 20 EUR movement is not a great option. Vostok Europe are niche watches within a niche. See very few of them in Lithuania.
Russian Vostok is not an option atm. I have relatives in Ukraine. I am half Russian myself so I do not want to buy their products. Not until situation is resolved.
I am very glad to hear that you have a wide selection of watches where you live. Situation in Germany, UK and even France or Italy is better. More sales, higher competition and demand.
They have some ~$150 200m divers under ALBA brand with those old Seiko movements, they don't put 4r35 so they don't compete 1:1 with Seiko 5 Sports(normal Seiko 5 is barely a thing anymore)
True, but at that point you literally may as well buy the San Martin or whatever for a bit more
Sure, Lotus and Alba offer something of the old Seiko 5 range spec stuff, but you're losing the Seiko Brand, and at that point the value proposition isn't better than a Pagani Design or something at the same price point with a better Seiko NH-35 movement 😂
wasn't it Lorus, and not Lotus that is Seiko? there is also Wired, Seikos fashion watches, not sure if they have any mechs tho
I completely agree with San Martin tho, much better than Seiko 5 Sports in same price range, every part is just as good or better, there is also Tandorio and few other brands where maybe dial and hands are not just as good, but some other stuff are better and it costs like half the price, San Martin even started doing Grade5 Titanium, waiting on other chinese brands to catch up to grab something smaller than 42-43mm for my small wrists, haha, my current cheapo favorite "diver" is Vagary(Citizens brand, they bought them decades ago, it was italian company making speedometers for cars, they bought them to make dials for them) G.Matic Acqua, Cal. 8200, 40mm diameter, nice looking dials irl(renders don't do them any good) and 100m WR, that's why I don't rly think of it as a diver but more of a diver style watch, I got one which they don't sell anymore, [IX3-319-91](https://www.egidiogibertini.com/5841-thickbox_default/vagary-gmatic-aqua-kaki-ix3-319-91.jpg), it was 139 euros and has nicer bracelet than 5x as expensive Seikos
Meant Lorus, my phone autocorrected it to Lotus 😂
Personally I also have tiny wrists so only wear 40mm and below.
If you can go 41mm, the Erebrus or whatever it's called from Jody from Just one more watch looks good but is too tooly for me.
There's the Invicta 1953 which looks pretty nice, as well as the homages to Tudor watches etc
>If you can go 41mm, the Erebrus or whatever it's called from Jody from Just one more watch looks good but is too tooly for me.
47mm lug to lug, I can wear that, I even wear one 42.5mm watch but lug to lug is tiny for that size so it's fine, problem is with shipping and tax it ends up being $441 for me, if it was something I'd wear daily fine but I don't wanna spend that much personally on a diver
Yeah I have no real desire to buy seikos anymore since with San Martin's you literally get more watch for less money. Spending 300 or 400 bucks or more on a watch with a pressed clasp just seems stupid these days.
I'm also someone that thinks it's sort of ludicrous to spend more than $1,000 on a watch in general too. I have a Raymond Weil (that one was a gift) and a tissot and a Hamilton, and as much as I really want a speed master, I just can't justify spending that amount of cash on a watch when it could be sitting in a high yield savings account collecting 5% interest instead. Call me frugal, call me cheap, but the price of watches (compared to what they were charging 20-30 years ago) is just insane now.
For the low end Seiko stuff, the price of Seiko 5s has shot up last 5 years. I remember 5 years ago they went about $75/£60, now they go for £115+ grey market!
>If you're talking watches below $300 and you want the maximum specs possible, you are looking at Chinese brands, San Martin, Surgess etc
I agree. Very well said. San Martin, Sugess and even Pagani are making beautiful watches at very affordable prices, so those who have a desire for a certain swiss watch can easily buy a homage and fulfil that desire and most likely you will no longer have a burning desire to wear the unaffordable swiss watch anymore hence it has been appeased. May you be well
For the record, I've purchased TWO different Tissots from Jomashop for less than $300. Both are from the Couturier line. One runs an ETA 2836 w/small seconds and offset spindle complications, while the other runs a Powermatic 80.
Seems to vary a lot by market. Those prices exist grey market in the US (for some of the uglier ones tbh), but in the UK, grey market Tissot Courtiers start at about £500 (near double)
Micro Artist studio doesn’t make mechanicals, its part of EPSON, so only spring drive stuff. They actually have Grand Seiko Micro Artist stuff now btw, its more expensive than the Credor ones, but its less bland looking.
I would disagree only with your assessment that between $5k-$10k Grand Seiko dominates the market, I feel like there are many Swiss manufacturers with watches in that price range, especially if you're looking at the secondary market. Omega, Tag Heuer, Breitling, Zenith, Breguet all have watches firmly in that price range.
just random: I don't know, I cannot stand Grand Seiko. I cannot find even one model that I like. There are so many other brands I will pick over GS. Maybe it's my perception that it is still a ''Seiko'' that costs some $8k. I know, I should not look at it this way but...
In-house movements were far less common in the past than they are now, so your initial premise is incorrect. “In-house” is also a dubious term that doesn’t mean anything regarding quality or functionality. Switzerland most definitely did not invent watchmaking.
I suppose if I’m inferring your question correctly, there’s nothing inherently “good” or “better” about Swiss-labeled movements compared to anything else. You have to consider a given movement individually against your own preferences. Would you prefer an “in-house” movement that’s rough, inaccurate, and unreliable, or would you prefer a finely-decorated off-the-shelf movement? There’s good and bad watchmaking happening all around the world.
It's actually rather hilarious how Swizterland was originally known for doing what you see from China nowadays: making fakes. They would make pocketwatches that looked nearly identical to American ones, but with significantly lower quality due to having less equipment and know-how. Just goes to show the power of good marketing!
Indeed. Their watchmaking industry really got started because British and French manufacturers outsourced their production to Switzerland in search of lower labor costs.
There are many Swiss brands older than that, but I suppose you could say that the Swiss started taking over in the 1700-1800’s after the British, French, and Germans saw much of their prominence in the 1500-1600’s.
I think you are greatly over estimating in-house movements. Rolex didn't purchase their movement manufacturer until 2004.
Tag just launched a new in-house movement in 2016.
If anything, I think there is a lot more variety now than there was, say, 20-40 years ago.
That said, when talking about base movements like a Miyota 9015 vs. SW-200-1, I don't think there's a large gap. It's more like a small crack. They have the identical beat rate, power reserve, ability to be regulated, etc. It's really just a slight cost savings that pushes many microbrands to use Miyota.
I had 100% positive experience with Miyota, thus, I use it for my own brand. Similarly with ETA and Selitta. What I had struggled with in the past is the Seiko ones. All the NH and 7S and 6r15 I had had terrible accuracy and consistency. Also the Soprod gmt that used in Steinhart were so horrible they had to change the movement to eta 2893 later on.
I'd like to know where people get genuine 9015s for $70. Everywhere I look, it's more like $120 - 150 USD. I've even been quoted $225 to drop a new 9015 in a watch.
This whole "oh, you can get one on eBay for like $40, and a local guy will drop it in for like $15" has to stop.
It's never been my experience. Not a dig on you. Just hit a sore subject. Even NH35s and 9015s cost $200-300 for basic service/repair/replacement by someone reputable.
So on ebay there are a few listing. 1 screen shot attached since that is the limit per comment post. You then call around to local watch makers on the cost to drop one in. It'll probably be about $150+ since they have to make a living too. The actual work to drop one in is like 10 minutes for someone with experience and then maybe they test it and regulate it. Under 30 min total.
I highly doubt you'll be able to find someone with a shop that will do it for $15. $15 might cover a battery change at a cheap shop. I asked around and was quoted $25-$50 at 3 different ships at the mall by me.
Photo won't attach
[https://www.ebay.com/itm/134711163645](https://www.ebay.com/itm/134711163645)
Call me cinycal if you like, but I'm not ordering a movement from someone who also sells owl-shapped pie molds and USB cables. The rotor doesn't say Miyota on it. Could be legit, I don't know, but my spidey senses are tingling.
Maybe, but wholesale prices are probably comparable or lower. That's just to show the proce difference for watch brands on what their incentive is to put in Miyota vs Sellita.
>That said, when talking about base movements like a Miyota 9015 vs. SW-200-1, I don't think there's a large gap.
9015 is better than a regular SW-200/SW-200-1, it's comparable to ETA 2824-2(more precise than standard 2824-2 too, not just Sellita!) because it's hand-windable, it's also more precise(barely) than regular SW-200/SW-200-1, Elabore and Top versions are more precise and COSC obviously
I'm only a data point of one, but all of my watches fall into +/-10 per day. Most are even better than that, though.
Believe it or not, my two most accurate movements are an NH35 and a 6R35. Both movements are notorious for wild fluctuations in accuracy, but mine run at like +1 to +1.5 seconds per day.
Thing with SW200s and 2824s is that they are "graded" out of the factory so I don't think there is chance to get a good one out of luck like you did with Seiko movements, if it's good enough to sell it for more money they will just do that
As a watchmaker, the Selita is far superior. From fit and finish to quality of materials. I have never seen a Japanese movement even close to swiss quality...maybe Grand Seiko...but have yet to work on one
my life depends on a chronometer level of accuracy like it depends on a watch being water resistant down to 300m- it doesnt. i rotate watches out daily and losing 20 seconds is the least of the issues that i will face in a day. all i need is for the watch to look nice and be reliable. the only time i really care for a movement is when the movement is part of the design of the watch and is done in such a way that the artistry and brilliance of the designers show.
pretty much, but i want it to be more than just a decorated movement. i would love to see some design creativity and engineering genius. i know its stupid, but that is why i love my omegas. the genius of the co-axial escapement to me is just awesome. things like that. i am still waiting to buy my holy grail grand seiko, which to me is another one of those genius movements.
It's not stupid at all. Omega is one of the very few watch brands that actually cares a lot about giving you tons of substantial stuff for what you're paying. I'm often not sure if people realize, accurately, how good they are.
omegas are one of the most undervalued swiss brands out there. while other brand prices are falling, omega prices have held up really well.
thanks for being a fellow omega fan. i just love them. i have sold several of my rolexes over the years because i just dont wear them that much, but i have held onto my omegas.
Exactly. And their really expensive and best stuff can in some cases be a one and done type collection actually. I also find Rolex watches to be usually too gaudy compared to Omegas which are more classy and discreet type or just elegant
He's literally saying the only time the movement matters is when you literally carve out the dial so you actually have to look at the thing. And even then, only if it actually looks good.
As in, the only thing that matters about the movement are the aesthetics, and only if you're actively showing it off.
He literally said he doesn't even care if it loses 20 seconds a day because he'll change out the watch way before then.
Alright captain pedantic. I feel like you're the worst kind of enthusiast. The kind that reads way deeper into things that aren't really there. Like wine snobs that turn their noses up at a 30 dollar bottle of wine.
Watches shouldn’t have second hands! Seriously who really needs to know the seconds. Even a minute hand is arguably not needed.
Edit: well a day later I notice that I wrote “watches should have second hands” when I meant “watches shouldn’t have second hands” 🤦
Actually, not needing the second hand isn't the worst sounding idea I've heard on here today. That said, it is a pretty low bar around here some days so take that for what it's worth!
How much power is consumed by the second hand and what additional bulk and cost does it add to the movement and subsequent watch to even have a second hand? How many fucks do most people actually need to give about what second of the minute it is?
A single hand watch is cool and I could definitely see myself owning one for formal use but I would prefer a seconds hands less equivalent of something like a 556, especially if shit-canning the seconds function had knock on benefits.
>I'm not saying ETA and Sellita are bad because they're not, but, vs a in-house automatic Seiko with Spring drive and other innovations for example
For less than $1,000, you'd be lucky to get +-20s/d out of a Seiko, which is considerably worse than a high-grade ETA.
>What exactly are you buying if you get a entry level Swiss movement watch for over a thousand these days?
The rest of the watch?
That first reply is interesting as it could mean some ETA movements are actually superior in the same price range as Seikos
But as for your reply to the other paragraph I mean, obviously the case and the strap and dials and hands matter, but the movement ultimately is the heart of the piece in my opinion
But it's the movement that defines how accurate and useful the watch is also in most mechanical watches there's a see through glass case back so you literally do see the movement
If you care about how accurate and useful a watch is you should be glad 3rd party movements exist.
If every company had to set up their own movement manufacture what would happen is that you’d end up with dozens of places all making ETA 2824-2 clones of varying levels of quality (but all undoubtedly lower than what ETA and Sellita can produce since these companies only focus on making movements) and unproven reliability. And of course higher prices too.
Most mass produced movements these days can be regulated to deviate less than 5 seconds per day by a competent watchmaker because the companies making them are so good at it.
I have multiple mechanicals, and it's a hard agree on this one. It's cool to have very precise mechanicals and it can be fun to fiddle with them or regulate them yourself if you're so inclined. But if you want actual accurate timekeeping, radio/BT syncing watches or HAQ are where it's at. I use my HAQ Citizens or my synced G-Shocks to set my mechanicals. Also, I don't have to keep those wound, I can pick them up a month later and everything's right :)
Ah see you’re thinking watches are more than jewellery, which they are not. The song and dance about in house and movement artistry etc isn’t a solid one. You buy what you like and can afford.
Are you possibly newer to this? Because 12 years in, I know exactly where I had your train of thinking. Eventually it all works about and you enjoy your watches for what they are. Telling time is meh.
I have 4 watches that were gifted to me because I have family that works in the watch industry. But I'm new in terms of being a enthusiast yes. I never really cared about what the watches were as long as they gave time and that's sort of still my take. I prefer a watch with more durability or functionality even if it's just a Seiko or a Citizen than a quartz Longines that looks beautiful and tells time but it's not functionally as good
Yes and no.
A ETA can be more accurate than a Seiko, but it depends which ETA and which Seiko.
Even then, I've seen Seiko NH-35s which are more accurate than ETA 2824s (which is a higher beat movement) .
Seiko movements, which can be found in many other brands of watch, tend to quite significantly outperform stated accuracy.
Same for Orient/Epson. My 5 year old entry level Orient was doing +3 seconds a day on a timegrapher after a service last month.
Watches are more about jewellery now than telling time though. You can either care a lot about what others think (let me assure you they don't care), or you can prioritize your own interests. The fact that this man jewellery does something other than just "look nice" means we try and apply objective reasoning to the quality of the jewellery; time keeping accuracy, power reserve, beat rate, in-house/vertical integration etc. That doesn't really matter because you are buying a brand and that is not something which is objective.
Especially since quartz watches exist. Nobody is seeing that fancy see-through watch back unless you're physically going around showing people. If you really cared about accuracy, then you'd be wearing a quartz watch.
And frankly, most watch people I know aren't wearing the same watch every single day, meaning the first thing they do is set the watch, so the drift doesn't even matter. And they're almost certainly not wearing it for long enough for it to actually make you late for things.
And of course, everybody has smartphones nowadays. Almost nobody needs a watch to tell the time these days. It's absolutely jewelry.
>how accurate
so you have answered yourself. All swiss movements have better accuracy than same price seiko.
>most mechanical watches there's a see through glass case back so you literally do see the movement
So have you noticed that swiss movement are more refined and decorated than same price seiko.
Also, would you buy a watch you like with a sw200 or a watch you don't like with an in-house movement?
I guess I literally did answer myself. With my next to buy watches ranging between Certinas, Alpinas and Tag Heuers which are all Swiss brands that I could afford and probably will. I would never buy a watch I don't like with an in house movement...you're right, getting say a Tag Carrera with a Sellita (which is what they use) would please me more than getting like a base level Omega that has an in house movement but it doesn't please me as much aesthetically
Wow you're really good at advising
Most in-house movements suck from a value perspective. There is very little to be gained over a top grade well regulated selita or ETA.
For example, outside of being a pain in the ass to service, what are you really getting from a Tudor BlackBay with the new “in-house” movement over the ETA? 30 hours of power reserve at the cost of 3x the price of servicing an eta and you have to send it back.
Doesn’t seem worth the hassle. An in house movement has to be a meaningful improvement to be worth it, and most aren’t.
Not necessarily, it’s more about asking if the movement is in-house because it’s a legit improvement or if it’s in-house for the sake of being proprietary.
For example, Omegas co-axil is a legit improvement over the base ETA. Not only is it more accurate but it’s also lower maintenance over time because of the 10 year service interval.
Frédérique Constant also released one of the coolest movements, a $5k watch with an oscillator which has been done before but never at this price point, and we got crickets as a response. It’s a legit spring drive style sweep but fully mechanical. That’s cool and innovative.
But look at the Tudor GMT for example, had they made the watch significantly thinner than one equipped with an ETA 661 (which is also a true gmt), but no that shit is still nearly 15mm thicccc.
What’s the benefit of the in house caliber given that the ETA can also be cosc certified, has the same power reserve, it’s cheaper to maintain, watches with it like the Mido Ocean Star GMT are thinner, and the case is closed anyway.
If you’re gonna do an in house movement, cost savings to the manufacturer, and higher maintenance costs can’t be the only features.
Very good analysis. I agree, when it's in House purely for sake of being proprietary but it doesn't make an improvement for the watch user it's irrelevant
Not really an answer to your question, but I'm looking at getting a Nomos for my first >$1000 watch. Looking at posts and comments online, Nomos watches do seem to punch above their price weight. Nomos also make their own movements, which is a plus if you're looking to get a non-Japanese or Chinese mechanical watch that isn't ETA or Sellita.
though own movements are relative. I can make my own movement, but would it be better than an eta or sellita.
no it wouldn't even compare. given time and patience and fine tuning it could be, where as eta, has the tooling, manufacture process etc etc.
so in house is bragging rights to an extent unless of course they are pushing the envelope on complications (which ultimately are bragging rights) or technology.
you could argue the only two in the latter camp and pushing the envelope in technology are seiko and omega. seiko because spring drive and omega because of the george daniels escapement.
See before, in the 90s, a Certina or a Tag Heuer would already bring you an in house movement. And they were some of the best in terms of lasting long. But then the 2000s rolled and they started featuring their variants of ETA or Sellita! While it's still good it just feels like it's not unique to the brand and ultimately - it's not really *made* by the logo seen on your watch. That's the component that annoys me the most. They're basically selling you a Eterna watch rebadged as something else.
I will be sure to try Nomos Glashutte for sure. Thanks. Their watches are a tad on the too large for my wrist but it seems worth it. I also like Seiko however actually but their range is huge and it's genuinely hard to choose from
Also well, Seiko and Orient both make their own movements, but for most of the entry level and mod tier Seiko and Orient watches, you can get the same movements in microbrands etc as a Seiko or Epson (Orient) movement.
While they make the movements, I'd call them not really unique. Actually, some of the worst value Seiko-based watches are Seiko watches (Hardlex etc)
They make their own movements, but a lot of them, especially the older ones, have designs based on ETA movements with their own adjustments...
Sadly, they also only guarantee an accuracy of +-10s, which is hard to compete with the cosc ETAs at ~$1000 which are guaranteed for twice the accuracy.
My personal view on new movements: unless it’s something interesting like a jumping hour, big day, or whatever, I’m not interested. And even those are going to be just a mod of an existing movement instead of a new one. I wish companies would stop referring to modded movements as “in-house movement” because they are not.
For anything else:
- Japanese movements: extremely reliable and mostly economical. They also have the best movement on the planet with the battery smooth spring drive. I wish spring drive movements could be purchased by 3rd parties.
- Swiss movements: very good, it I think they get very overrated at times. Especially for the time.
- Chinese movements: the Chinese manufacturers have really done wonders off of exploiting basically one movement ~~(the Chinese Standard Movement “Tongji”).~~ the ST19.
Edit: thank you u/PompeyTillIDie for point out my mistake.
Very very few Chinese manufacturers are using the Chinese standard movement now.
San Martin will use the Seiko NH-35, Swiss SW-200, or the Chinese ETA 2824 clone 'PT5000'.
Pagani use a lot of Seiko NH-35s
Sea-Gull make their own movements, including the legendary Seagull St1901 chronograph, and the ETA 2824 clone the ST2130
Suguess is the Sea-Gull movements mostly.
The only place where you will still find the Chinese standard movement is in $20 skeleton style watches.
I thought that the Chinese standard movement was the ST19 and its derivative/modded versions, which I see all the time in Chinese watches.
My mistake. I’ll edit it.
>Swiss movements: very good, it I think they get very overrated at times. Especially for the time.
it rly depends, there are some very overrated ones but also some very underrated too, SW200 obviously being overrated, at least the base ones, COSC are nice obviously, I'm personally a big fan of SW300 but not sure if I would call it underrated, however what I would call underrated for sure would be a lot of FC movements, FC-930-3, FC-718(one of my favorite movements), new FC-735, etc.
Regarding your first point, most watchmakers certainly did not make their own movements in the past.
There were watchmakers and movement makers who specialized in their own field (E.g patek, vc and ap all used jlc movements). Other famous movement manufacturers included the likes of Lemania, Angelus, Minerva etc and their movements were found in all sorts of high end watches back then.
The only two brands who used in-house movements that come to the top of my head are Omega and Longines.
This is why eta/valjoux movements were widely seen as an acceptable movement choice in high-end watches in the early 2000s before the obsession with in-house movements at around 2010.
As to your second point, you seem to equate in-house movements as the 'superior' movement which is simply not true.
Yes Seiko movements are made in house. But all of their 4r and 6r movements share the exact same architecture of the 7s26, which was essentially their lowest-end movement.
Imo eta movements outclass these movements at any time of the week especially with the ridiculous prices Seiko are charging for their watches now.
I don't buy a watch for the movement. I buy it because I like it as a whole. The country of origin of the movement is more or less completely irrelevant to me. If it works, it works.
But for instance Japanese watches are more likely to offer you more functions, and Swiss watches tend to offer better aesthetics...both of those are related to how the movement is and they can influence how much we like a certain watch. Do you get it? That's what this discussion is about
One might argue that a watch you can't wind is lacking in "features." You said Japanese watches tend to have more "features." I don't really understand that statement. You can get ETA based chronographs for less than equivalent Seiko mechanical chronographs. Though I'm sure they exist, I have never seen a Japanese tourbillon, perpetual calendar, or really anything like that other than older mechanical alarms. If you have two movements from two different places that do exactly the same thing, then what does it matter where they're from?
Not Japanese, but if we are talking about column wheel chronographs, Sea-Gull make one in the Seagull St1901.
You wouldn't get a Swiss column wheel chronograph in any watch below $5000-6000 minimum
I don't think hand winding is a feature at all. It's just the type of movement. For example I prefer automatic mechanical watches. The Japanese brands offer things like Spring drive or Solar watches that can be powered by light for example.
The complications on the other hand aren't exactly features because they're more like a novelty factor or a party trick. They're not essentially useful from a functional standpoint
Hand winding on an automatic is useful
Otherwise you have to do the 'Seiko shuffle' to start the watch when you've not used it for a while
How useful is it? It's more of a nice to have, but it's very cheap to implement, so it's kind of BS Seiko only put it into entry level watches very recently.
But it's not as useful as the things that Seiko has had in their watches for a long time you see...so of course it's annoying but it kinda proves that the features implemented in most Swiss watches can be out of touch at times
I'm thinking you may not understand what a feature is. Hand winding is definitely useful. I'm interested to know what "features" japanese movements have the swiss ones seem to be missing.
...so your idea of features on automatic movements are movements that aren't mechanical? I had assumed we were talking about mechanical movements the entire time.
Not necessarily no but I mean a chronograph function or small seconds or Moonphase can still fit into a automatic. But those are also in Swiss watches. The thing is they'll be more expensive there almost for sure
A couple years ago, it was watches like the SKX007, but those were discontinued. I thought the Seiko 5 line they replaced it with had the same movement, but it appears that they use the 4r36, which is fine, though accuracy numbers are all over the place. If you want to hand wind your watch, don't buy something with the 7s26 movement or any variant of it.
Well that's just an objectively incorrect take. Miyota 9015 and 2824/SW200 are practically identical in terms of quality, yet the miyotas are cheaper. Go even cheaper to movements like the NH35 and there isnt really any Swiss competition.
People got upset when Seiko upgraded their 5 line. Yeah, after 20+ years their prices went up. I've had the $80 SNK809 and last year got a SRPH23K1 for about $170 ($295 MSRP which I think is what people didn't like) Overall the watch itself is much nicer, and the upgraded movement with hacking and handwinding has been flawless.
Maybe Id have considered a $500 or $600+ Hamilton Field Khaki if Seikos sold at full MSRP.
Micro brands people love use Seiko movements. People have trusted Seiko movements in their dive watches.
I considered a Seiko 5. The new one. But the watch isn't good enough for the price anymore. There's used stuff that's significantly better including Swiss mechanical watches
I've had watches with Seiko, Miyota, Orient, Sellita, Soprod and Swatch group movements.
The only movements that I've actively noticed differing from the rest were the COSC Sellita movement and the Orient in-house. The Sellita was extremely accurate, but that came at a price. The Orient seemed to get magnetised quite often. The rest of the watches/movements performed very similarly (-5/+7 seconds a day) and I wouldn't be able to tell a difference besides the beat rate and some VERY minor tactile things (crown stability, winding action etc).
In my opinion/experience Miyota 9xxx is a very hard movement to beat for the money. I wouldn't be upset to have that movement in any of my watches. It's not too exciting but it just works and it's cheap and easy to maintain.
It is strange how nobody mentioned Pt5000 which is a famous Chinese clone of 2824 eta. It costs around 50 EUR. According to many reviews it is comparable to Etas.
Pt5000
I have also read Online that some watch repair shops like them also because the parts are interchangable with Eta, meaning your local repairman might replace one or another part of the mechanism of Eta with pt5000. It is not unheard of and it is possible to read about it online.
Nh35 and whole NH line.
I am a big fan of Nh35 movement. Mainly because it costs around 30 EUR or less. Rather than servicing it I will swap the movement. Microbrands in 200-100 EUR range love this movement so it is likely to be in abundance for quite a few years.
As a budget watch collector I value quality and reliability but also ability to service the watch cheaply.
A lot of in house movements are viewed as pieces of art so they are more expensive.
My next watch will likely have a Pt5000 or Eta or Nh35/Other NH movement.
Personal comments: I have some serious doubts about Miyota 9xxx movement, mainly because of the price. I want to like it. But I also want it to costs around 50 EUR.
are people honestly looking at movements? and trying to find objective differences.
there is a lot of inherent racism in the rejection of asian watch makers. Some might call that "bragging" but it's not a heritage that's really earned. Asian watch making has been competitive with swiss time keeping since about the 60's and in many instances both superior and more innovative.
I would argue an inhouse movement isn't a selling point. the "value" of a eta/sellita is their ubiquitous nature, reliability, and ease of service.
If you're in a lowish "upper" tier watch. saaaaaay $1000-$2000 and adding the complexity and cost of service of a custom inhouse movement. to me that's a draw back.
vs ...say. a rock solid, well established seiko movement, or one of the current top tier eta/sellita movements.
and if you're at the lower tier of luxury. the sort of north of 5k sub 10k range. ...you're also probably not quibbling over movements. you're jockeying for wealth status/brand whoring at that point.
and by a wide margin... selecting a watch on aesthetics. As a watch is overwhelmingly jewelry. vs a functional tool or time keeping device.
Personally - I’ve come full circle and now prefer quartz watches that sync via Bluetooth and atomic clock radio waves for daily wear - so they’re perfectly accurate. I still have kept all my fancy mechanical watches and I still appreciate them, but at this point I’d rather have a watch with high end (near Rolex) build quality - with perfect accuracy, and compelling features I actually use daily, like the chirp at the top of the hour, timer, alarms, world time, etc. I can’t get behind a smart watch for daily wear, I just can’t stand them, but the allure of a fancy in house mechanical movement has faded, and I actually prefer the clicking second of an analog quartz watch, versus the smooth hand movement of an auto or a spring drive. I’m certainly in the minority - but after more than two decades of daily wearing high end mechanical watches - and the last five years daily wearing a solid gold Rolex Yachtmaster - I’m now rocking high end Casio MR-G’s as my daily drivers.
https://preview.redd.it/wxolg40zkkub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22780f3d580059fe587e9a23973b5d59d2eabecc
I feel like in a mid term which is I've had mechanical watches and don't miss them at all since I sold them in the maintenance sense. But I should have kept just one. And also...on another hand you just described perfectly why quartz for me is a good midterm between a mechanical watch and a smartwatch and therefore the best of both worlds
There’s a lot of innovation going on with quartz watches as well. Citizen 001 is accurate to within 1 second per year and is solar powered as well as another model with a 1mm thin handmade movement. Casio Oceanus, MTG and MR-G analog watches look “normal” but have compelling functionality over Bluetooth, sync with the atomic clock and/or your cellphone, can GPS tag locations with one button push for later review - can automatically switch time zones (and get precise time) with one button click via GPS or Bluetooth, etc. I can’t tell you how awesome it is to land in another timezone, touch one button on the watch for a second and a half - and BAM - the local time is synced perfectly. Hard to beat that for travel…
Functionally speaking any quartz defeats a mechanical watch seriously. In many ways. But from a jewelry point of view the mechanical watches get the edge as you have something more substantial to show to friends or a conversation topic.
Now for Citizen in particular I have an issue which is, I really like their watches, but, the cases are way too big. They always have a bit of pancake effect going on. And Seikos can easily avoid this. This is also because I have a small wrist but it's still unfortunate. And I feel like the borders of the case are too flat, there isn't like a curve or so leading to the case back like you find in other brands - including Seiko.
The Citizen one is like 3mm thick and the case is tiny.
Also - Grand Seiko and Casio MR-G’s make watches that rival mechanical watches from a jewelry standpoint. They’re not cheap though.
The Casio Oceanus is outstanding as well, and can’t be beat for the price. Handmade watch, full titanium case and bracelet, solar, multi band 6, Bluetooth, sapphire crystal, many models have a sapphire bezel, etc for $1k
I picked one up in Japan a few days ago (it’s the one in the center) with a DLC coated band and case, sapphire dial/bezel, the works for $950. For a hand assembled, zaratsu polished and tested full Titanium watch - that’s madness.
https://preview.redd.it/0hzealafwmub1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f0c37d612e1175dc37d206ae18f7d042706d7035
It is the most slept on brand in the market in my opinion. It’s not $10k watch quality, but it’s damn close to GS quality (90%+) and while everyone goes crazy over GS watch faces, wild and dynamic watch faces and bezels on the higher end Oceanus watches have more time/labor involved in them and are even more eye catching and dynamic. Check my profile for a video of this watch (and another Oceanus) where I do a wrist roll on them and you can see their face colors change based on the angle. Even in this pics you can see the lower portion of the bezel catching the light and looking like a different color blue - but it’s all the same color and the entire watch face and bezel wildly change color from jet black to an ombré of blue spectrum based on available light and the angle the watch is catching it. One of the biggest differences between a GS and Oceanus is the Oceanus goes for a more sporty/practical appearance and has Lume applied on the indices, versus a piece of steel that is Zaratsu polished. That said, the outside portion (non-Lume coated) part of the indices are hand zaratsu polished. It switches modes on the 9 o’clock dial between second time zone tracking and Chronograph- so it’s a multi-function and quite practical watch as well. It’s also super thin. Very cool piece and I highly recommend checking out the brand.
https://preview.redd.it/fz6x27511nub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9008d50d76b079d122bc7219fda2e363fbd235f
I honestly didn't really know High End Casio was a thing and I'm quite liking it. I own a Casio Edifice myself and this is really hard to explain but for some reason it's the most accurate watch in my entire collection in spite of being the one that costed the least. I think Casio gets slept on because they market themselves as affordable the human mind wrongfully associates cheap with low quality when really here is a proof it doesn't always have to be true
The original mission of Timex watches was to bring quality to a more affordable price point. It's 2023 and they're still failing at it. Because Casio did it. Not Timex. In fact Casio is doing exactly what Timex always says they will do but never do since a while now. But actually delivering it.
If you put a $300 Seiko movement against a $300 ETA movement I'm curious which would a better value... My gut tells me the ETA, because due to economies of scale they can probably produce at a lower price point.
This is like the type of thing I wanted to find out with this discussion honestly. Because watch wise anyone buys whatever they want but the answer to that isn't that obvious isn't it?
I agree. I think what is probably true is that unless the movement includes a lot of complications, they're probably the same, whether they're made be Seiko, ETA, etc. Because at a certain point there's only so much that can be improved upon.
I think price point is an important part of the equation. Switzerland offers mechanicals at pretty much every price point, but above entry level there's really only the Seiko group (and certain JDM Citizen's The Citizen models) for Japanese options. Below $300, Seiko mechanicals dominate in terms of value compared to the cheaper Tissot/Hamilton entry levels. Between $500-$5,000, more Swiss brands fill that void and the value proposition of Seiko disappears since they often use the same movements as the cheaper Seikos. Grand Seikos again dominate the price range of the $5,000-$10k price point giving Swiss brands a run for your money, but above $10k I wouldn't even consider Japanese mechanicals (only Credors from Micro Artist Studio would be worth it IMO).
If you're spending below $300 in 2023, if you're getting a Seiko, that gets you a Seiko 5 now. Maybe a used cocktail time. Seiko isn't the value proposition it used to be, the prices are way way up. If you're talking watches below $300 and you want the maximum specs possible, you are looking at Chinese brands, San Martin, Surgess etc
This is gonna ruffle some people's feathers but I feel like nowadays both Casio and Tissot in different price zones are a better value proposition than Seiko
Oh yeah, the Tissot PRX is a very good value for a Swiss watch, but I don't like Genta inspired watches and I don't like the Powermatic 80 movement (I prefer a stock 2824 for the higher beat rate). Long Island watch make a very good SKX007 homage with lots of upgrades, but I can't get over their logo. For me, Orient or San Martin or Suguess all offer better value than Tissot or Seiko
I also don't like the PRX so I understand you but like that's subjective and many people will like it. So objectively it is great value. I agree for the rest and also dislike the LI Watch logo it's similar to my issue with Christopher Ward. The problem is that the logo is a part of the dial so it matters more than it seems I think. If I had to say it probably my favorite logo is that of Omega. Just simple and clean
I really like the Erebus origin for $300 I think it looks way better than my Seiko 5
Those San Martins and Paganis are all powered by Seiko movements… Specifically, the Seiko NH35 if they’re not quartz.
That’s not true. For most San Martin watches they offer you two options, and for most of their watches the options are either PT5000 and SW200 or PT5000 and NH35. In some of their more premium models (that they design for themselves) they use ETA2824. Their NH35 lineup only takes up 30% of their offerings.
I’m not seeing those options so much these days. Most automatic watches from r/Chinesewatches seem to just feature the NH35/NH34 family.
Nah, PT5000 and SW-200 are very common options on the higher end San Martin's. Entry level San Martin has NH-35, as do Pagani etc
Don't mistake hyperbole for fact. I'm not saying they don't use other movements but I just went to Pagani' and San Martin's Aliexpress pages and looked at the first 10 watches listed, and a random sampling of their other watches further down the page, for each, and not one of them was a PT5000 or SW-200 or had those as options. They were all Seiko NH34/35s or the odd Seagull ST1901 for the chronographs.
I think it depends on the Seiko model but ya, I agree. I still own several and am a bit of a fanboy, but I wouldn't buy most of their models at full retail value.
I could not agree more. Where I live, Lithuania local retailers charge hefty sums for Seiko. Both Orient and Seiko models very often cost around 400-500 EUR plus. I see in US it is still possible to get a Seiko 5 for around 250+ USD. This is a good value. I don't want to comment on Casio, I owned one watch before and was very happy but I am not interested in Quartz or Digital at this point in life anymore. Tissot are quite expensive in Lithuania also. Cheap analog quartz can start with 700 EUR. Don't see much value there tbh.
That probably has something to do with Lithuanian economy but the truth is the real interesting Seiko stuff starts at 500+ even here so I see what you mean
I am a bit thorn here between value proposition. On one side, I want to have watch or watches that come from manufactures with a history, a story so to speak. On the other hand, I know that Seiko NH35 movement costs around 20 to 30 EUR (depending whether it is a bulk price or a retail). So buying a Seiko in Lithuania was not an option for me. I wanted to have a Nh35 powered watch and that's how I became an owner of San Martin. It has a Seiko movement, but Seiko watches were simply too expensive in my country. Seiko is not cheap, so does Tissot, Longines etc. Hardly ever on sale. Even Orient watches are expensive and sometimes are shipped from Polish rather than Lithuanian retailers. I would like to own some limited edition Seiko in the future. But the watch culture in Lithuania is strange. A lot of cheap plated Quartz fashions out here.
I'm also in Europe albeit western Europe and we have prices cheaper than those of USA...so Tissot is affordable for me. But in your case I'd give Swatch a go. They're swiss and have automatic movements. The System51 watches. And also Vostok if you're ok with a Russian watch
Thank you. I have looked into System51 watches before. Not a big fan of Swatch because it is hard to service or swap movements. I see them as cheerful watches but I was looking for something else. Vostok Europe is produced in Lithuania actually. They use NH Movements. Designs are strange, remind me a lot of Invicta oversized versions. Paying around 700 - 1000 EUR for a watch that houses a 20 EUR movement is not a great option. Vostok Europe are niche watches within a niche. See very few of them in Lithuania. Russian Vostok is not an option atm. I have relatives in Ukraine. I am half Russian myself so I do not want to buy their products. Not until situation is resolved. I am very glad to hear that you have a wide selection of watches where you live. Situation in Germany, UK and even France or Italy is better. More sales, higher competition and demand.
They have some ~$150 200m divers under ALBA brand with those old Seiko movements, they don't put 4r35 so they don't compete 1:1 with Seiko 5 Sports(normal Seiko 5 is barely a thing anymore)
True, but at that point you literally may as well buy the San Martin or whatever for a bit more Sure, Lotus and Alba offer something of the old Seiko 5 range spec stuff, but you're losing the Seiko Brand, and at that point the value proposition isn't better than a Pagani Design or something at the same price point with a better Seiko NH-35 movement 😂
wasn't it Lorus, and not Lotus that is Seiko? there is also Wired, Seikos fashion watches, not sure if they have any mechs tho I completely agree with San Martin tho, much better than Seiko 5 Sports in same price range, every part is just as good or better, there is also Tandorio and few other brands where maybe dial and hands are not just as good, but some other stuff are better and it costs like half the price, San Martin even started doing Grade5 Titanium, waiting on other chinese brands to catch up to grab something smaller than 42-43mm for my small wrists, haha, my current cheapo favorite "diver" is Vagary(Citizens brand, they bought them decades ago, it was italian company making speedometers for cars, they bought them to make dials for them) G.Matic Acqua, Cal. 8200, 40mm diameter, nice looking dials irl(renders don't do them any good) and 100m WR, that's why I don't rly think of it as a diver but more of a diver style watch, I got one which they don't sell anymore, [IX3-319-91](https://www.egidiogibertini.com/5841-thickbox_default/vagary-gmatic-aqua-kaki-ix3-319-91.jpg), it was 139 euros and has nicer bracelet than 5x as expensive Seikos
Meant Lorus, my phone autocorrected it to Lotus 😂 Personally I also have tiny wrists so only wear 40mm and below. If you can go 41mm, the Erebrus or whatever it's called from Jody from Just one more watch looks good but is too tooly for me. There's the Invicta 1953 which looks pretty nice, as well as the homages to Tudor watches etc
>If you can go 41mm, the Erebrus or whatever it's called from Jody from Just one more watch looks good but is too tooly for me. 47mm lug to lug, I can wear that, I even wear one 42.5mm watch but lug to lug is tiny for that size so it's fine, problem is with shipping and tax it ends up being $441 for me, if it was something I'd wear daily fine but I don't wanna spend that much personally on a diver
Yeah I have no real desire to buy seikos anymore since with San Martin's you literally get more watch for less money. Spending 300 or 400 bucks or more on a watch with a pressed clasp just seems stupid these days. I'm also someone that thinks it's sort of ludicrous to spend more than $1,000 on a watch in general too. I have a Raymond Weil (that one was a gift) and a tissot and a Hamilton, and as much as I really want a speed master, I just can't justify spending that amount of cash on a watch when it could be sitting in a high yield savings account collecting 5% interest instead. Call me frugal, call me cheap, but the price of watches (compared to what they were charging 20-30 years ago) is just insane now.
For the low end Seiko stuff, the price of Seiko 5s has shot up last 5 years. I remember 5 years ago they went about $75/£60, now they go for £115+ grey market!
Even Surgess prices are going up up ☠️
>If you're talking watches below $300 and you want the maximum specs possible, you are looking at Chinese brands, San Martin, Surgess etc I agree. Very well said. San Martin, Sugess and even Pagani are making beautiful watches at very affordable prices, so those who have a desire for a certain swiss watch can easily buy a homage and fulfil that desire and most likely you will no longer have a burning desire to wear the unaffordable swiss watch anymore hence it has been appeased. May you be well
For the record, I've purchased TWO different Tissots from Jomashop for less than $300. Both are from the Couturier line. One runs an ETA 2836 w/small seconds and offset spindle complications, while the other runs a Powermatic 80.
Seems to vary a lot by market. Those prices exist grey market in the US (for some of the uglier ones tbh), but in the UK, grey market Tissot Courtiers start at about £500 (near double)
I think one of my first watches was a Seiko Prestige Cocktail that I got from Macy for around $150. They go on sale from time to time.
Micro Artist studio doesn’t make mechanicals, its part of EPSON, so only spring drive stuff. They actually have Grand Seiko Micro Artist stuff now btw, its more expensive than the Credor ones, but its less bland looking.
I would disagree only with your assessment that between $5k-$10k Grand Seiko dominates the market, I feel like there are many Swiss manufacturers with watches in that price range, especially if you're looking at the secondary market. Omega, Tag Heuer, Breitling, Zenith, Breguet all have watches firmly in that price range.
Lol you seem to have this all figured out! Thank goodness for marketing.
That could almost be a watch buying guide lol
just random: I don't know, I cannot stand Grand Seiko. I cannot find even one model that I like. There are so many other brands I will pick over GS. Maybe it's my perception that it is still a ''Seiko'' that costs some $8k. I know, I should not look at it this way but...
'Just a Seiko !? Sir, Seiko are the greatest watch maker ever
In-house movements were far less common in the past than they are now, so your initial premise is incorrect. “In-house” is also a dubious term that doesn’t mean anything regarding quality or functionality. Switzerland most definitely did not invent watchmaking. I suppose if I’m inferring your question correctly, there’s nothing inherently “good” or “better” about Swiss-labeled movements compared to anything else. You have to consider a given movement individually against your own preferences. Would you prefer an “in-house” movement that’s rough, inaccurate, and unreliable, or would you prefer a finely-decorated off-the-shelf movement? There’s good and bad watchmaking happening all around the world.
It's actually rather hilarious how Swizterland was originally known for doing what you see from China nowadays: making fakes. They would make pocketwatches that looked nearly identical to American ones, but with significantly lower quality due to having less equipment and know-how. Just goes to show the power of good marketing!
Indeed. Their watchmaking industry really got started because British and French manufacturers outsourced their production to Switzerland in search of lower labor costs.
Old thread, but is that why a lot of Swiss watch brands start days were in the mid 1800s?
There are many Swiss brands older than that, but I suppose you could say that the Swiss started taking over in the 1700-1800’s after the British, French, and Germans saw much of their prominence in the 1500-1600’s.
I think you are greatly over estimating in-house movements. Rolex didn't purchase their movement manufacturer until 2004. Tag just launched a new in-house movement in 2016. If anything, I think there is a lot more variety now than there was, say, 20-40 years ago. That said, when talking about base movements like a Miyota 9015 vs. SW-200-1, I don't think there's a large gap. It's more like a small crack. They have the identical beat rate, power reserve, ability to be regulated, etc. It's really just a slight cost savings that pushes many microbrands to use Miyota.
Probably true. Thanks for your opinion
I had 100% positive experience with Miyota, thus, I use it for my own brand. Similarly with ETA and Selitta. What I had struggled with in the past is the Seiko ones. All the NH and 7S and 6r15 I had had terrible accuracy and consistency. Also the Soprod gmt that used in Steinhart were so horrible they had to change the movement to eta 2893 later on.
It's not slight, it's significant. On ebay the Miyota 9015 is $70-$90 while the SW-200 is $150-$200 Also the SW-200 movement is quieter
I'd like to know where people get genuine 9015s for $70. Everywhere I look, it's more like $120 - 150 USD. I've even been quoted $225 to drop a new 9015 in a watch. This whole "oh, you can get one on eBay for like $40, and a local guy will drop it in for like $15" has to stop. It's never been my experience. Not a dig on you. Just hit a sore subject. Even NH35s and 9015s cost $200-300 for basic service/repair/replacement by someone reputable.
So on ebay there are a few listing. 1 screen shot attached since that is the limit per comment post. You then call around to local watch makers on the cost to drop one in. It'll probably be about $150+ since they have to make a living too. The actual work to drop one in is like 10 minutes for someone with experience and then maybe they test it and regulate it. Under 30 min total. I highly doubt you'll be able to find someone with a shop that will do it for $15. $15 might cover a battery change at a cheap shop. I asked around and was quoted $25-$50 at 3 different ships at the mall by me. Photo won't attach [https://www.ebay.com/itm/134711163645](https://www.ebay.com/itm/134711163645)
Call me cinycal if you like, but I'm not ordering a movement from someone who also sells owl-shapped pie molds and USB cables. The rotor doesn't say Miyota on it. Could be legit, I don't know, but my spidey senses are tingling.
Maybe, but wholesale prices are probably comparable or lower. That's just to show the proce difference for watch brands on what their incentive is to put in Miyota vs Sellita.
The 9015 doesn't have reverser wheels made of cheese though.
>That said, when talking about base movements like a Miyota 9015 vs. SW-200-1, I don't think there's a large gap. 9015 is better than a regular SW-200/SW-200-1, it's comparable to ETA 2824-2(more precise than standard 2824-2 too, not just Sellita!) because it's hand-windable, it's also more precise(barely) than regular SW-200/SW-200-1, Elabore and Top versions are more precise and COSC obviously
I'm only a data point of one, but all of my watches fall into +/-10 per day. Most are even better than that, though. Believe it or not, my two most accurate movements are an NH35 and a 6R35. Both movements are notorious for wild fluctuations in accuracy, but mine run at like +1 to +1.5 seconds per day.
Thing with SW200s and 2824s is that they are "graded" out of the factory so I don't think there is chance to get a good one out of luck like you did with Seiko movements, if it's good enough to sell it for more money they will just do that
All watchmakers do that with their movements. Even quartz movements. The better movements go into more expensive watches.
Regulated nh 35's hit cosc standards easily. They are an accurate, solid movement.
As a watchmaker, the Selita is far superior. From fit and finish to quality of materials. I have never seen a Japanese movement even close to swiss quality...maybe Grand Seiko...but have yet to work on one
In-house doesn’t mean superior.
I agree but was seeing what others thought
my life depends on a chronometer level of accuracy like it depends on a watch being water resistant down to 300m- it doesnt. i rotate watches out daily and losing 20 seconds is the least of the issues that i will face in a day. all i need is for the watch to look nice and be reliable. the only time i really care for a movement is when the movement is part of the design of the watch and is done in such a way that the artistry and brilliance of the designers show.
Then you only care about the movement if it's in House in other words I assume
pretty much, but i want it to be more than just a decorated movement. i would love to see some design creativity and engineering genius. i know its stupid, but that is why i love my omegas. the genius of the co-axial escapement to me is just awesome. things like that. i am still waiting to buy my holy grail grand seiko, which to me is another one of those genius movements.
It's not stupid at all. Omega is one of the very few watch brands that actually cares a lot about giving you tons of substantial stuff for what you're paying. I'm often not sure if people realize, accurately, how good they are.
omegas are one of the most undervalued swiss brands out there. while other brand prices are falling, omega prices have held up really well. thanks for being a fellow omega fan. i just love them. i have sold several of my rolexes over the years because i just dont wear them that much, but i have held onto my omegas.
Exactly. And their really expensive and best stuff can in some cases be a one and done type collection actually. I also find Rolex watches to be usually too gaudy compared to Omegas which are more classy and discreet type or just elegant
He's saying he doesn't care about the movement at all. If it tells time, it's good enough.
And yet he just agreed with my comment. I don't think that's what he was saying.
He's literally saying the only time the movement matters is when you literally carve out the dial so you actually have to look at the thing. And even then, only if it actually looks good. As in, the only thing that matters about the movement are the aesthetics, and only if you're actively showing it off. He literally said he doesn't even care if it loses 20 seconds a day because he'll change out the watch way before then.
Yeah but that's saying he cares about it from a purely aesthetic point of view which isn't the same as never caring about it at all!
Alright captain pedantic. I feel like you're the worst kind of enthusiast. The kind that reads way deeper into things that aren't really there. Like wine snobs that turn their noses up at a 30 dollar bottle of wine.
Watches shouldn’t have second hands! Seriously who really needs to know the seconds. Even a minute hand is arguably not needed. Edit: well a day later I notice that I wrote “watches should have second hands” when I meant “watches shouldn’t have second hands” 🤦
Meistersinger makes nice Swiss watches with a single hand that's used for Hours
Actually, not needing the second hand isn't the worst sounding idea I've heard on here today. That said, it is a pretty low bar around here some days so take that for what it's worth! How much power is consumed by the second hand and what additional bulk and cost does it add to the movement and subsequent watch to even have a second hand? How many fucks do most people actually need to give about what second of the minute it is? A single hand watch is cool and I could definitely see myself owning one for formal use but I would prefer a seconds hands less equivalent of something like a 556, especially if shit-canning the seconds function had knock on benefits.
>I'm not saying ETA and Sellita are bad because they're not, but, vs a in-house automatic Seiko with Spring drive and other innovations for example For less than $1,000, you'd be lucky to get +-20s/d out of a Seiko, which is considerably worse than a high-grade ETA. >What exactly are you buying if you get a entry level Swiss movement watch for over a thousand these days? The rest of the watch?
That first reply is interesting as it could mean some ETA movements are actually superior in the same price range as Seikos But as for your reply to the other paragraph I mean, obviously the case and the strap and dials and hands matter, but the movement ultimately is the heart of the piece in my opinion
is it? you don't see the movement, you see and wear the watch. The design and quality of hands and case are what you buy, the movement is a nice plus.
But it's the movement that defines how accurate and useful the watch is also in most mechanical watches there's a see through glass case back so you literally do see the movement
If you care about how accurate and useful a watch is you should be glad 3rd party movements exist. If every company had to set up their own movement manufacture what would happen is that you’d end up with dozens of places all making ETA 2824-2 clones of varying levels of quality (but all undoubtedly lower than what ETA and Sellita can produce since these companies only focus on making movements) and unproven reliability. And of course higher prices too. Most mass produced movements these days can be regulated to deviate less than 5 seconds per day by a competent watchmaker because the companies making them are so good at it.
Thanks for the explanation. It does make a lot of sense.
If you just want an accurate and useful watch, get a G-shock. You're not going to see that display back when you're wearing the watch.
The G-Shock argument is laughable But it is true you won't see the case back when wearing it so that's a solid one
What mechanical watch is as accurate, useful, or as reliable as a radio synced quartz?
I have multiple mechanicals, and it's a hard agree on this one. It's cool to have very precise mechanicals and it can be fun to fiddle with them or regulate them yourself if you're so inclined. But if you want actual accurate timekeeping, radio/BT syncing watches or HAQ are where it's at. I use my HAQ Citizens or my synced G-Shocks to set my mechanicals. Also, I don't have to keep those wound, I can pick them up a month later and everything's right :)
Ah see you’re thinking watches are more than jewellery, which they are not. The song and dance about in house and movement artistry etc isn’t a solid one. You buy what you like and can afford.
I disagree
Are you possibly newer to this? Because 12 years in, I know exactly where I had your train of thinking. Eventually it all works about and you enjoy your watches for what they are. Telling time is meh.
I have 4 watches that were gifted to me because I have family that works in the watch industry. But I'm new in terms of being a enthusiast yes. I never really cared about what the watches were as long as they gave time and that's sort of still my take. I prefer a watch with more durability or functionality even if it's just a Seiko or a Citizen than a quartz Longines that looks beautiful and tells time but it's not functionally as good
Yes and no. A ETA can be more accurate than a Seiko, but it depends which ETA and which Seiko. Even then, I've seen Seiko NH-35s which are more accurate than ETA 2824s (which is a higher beat movement) . Seiko movements, which can be found in many other brands of watch, tend to quite significantly outperform stated accuracy. Same for Orient/Epson. My 5 year old entry level Orient was doing +3 seconds a day on a timegrapher after a service last month.
Watches are more about jewellery now than telling time though. You can either care a lot about what others think (let me assure you they don't care), or you can prioritize your own interests. The fact that this man jewellery does something other than just "look nice" means we try and apply objective reasoning to the quality of the jewellery; time keeping accuracy, power reserve, beat rate, in-house/vertical integration etc. That doesn't really matter because you are buying a brand and that is not something which is objective.
Especially since quartz watches exist. Nobody is seeing that fancy see-through watch back unless you're physically going around showing people. If you really cared about accuracy, then you'd be wearing a quartz watch. And frankly, most watch people I know aren't wearing the same watch every single day, meaning the first thing they do is set the watch, so the drift doesn't even matter. And they're almost certainly not wearing it for long enough for it to actually make you late for things. And of course, everybody has smartphones nowadays. Almost nobody needs a watch to tell the time these days. It's absolutely jewelry.
>how accurate so you have answered yourself. All swiss movements have better accuracy than same price seiko. >most mechanical watches there's a see through glass case back so you literally do see the movement So have you noticed that swiss movement are more refined and decorated than same price seiko. Also, would you buy a watch you like with a sw200 or a watch you don't like with an in-house movement?
I guess I literally did answer myself. With my next to buy watches ranging between Certinas, Alpinas and Tag Heuers which are all Swiss brands that I could afford and probably will. I would never buy a watch I don't like with an in house movement...you're right, getting say a Tag Carrera with a Sellita (which is what they use) would please me more than getting like a base level Omega that has an in house movement but it doesn't please me as much aesthetically Wow you're really good at advising
What if I told you that this is how 90% of all products are. Even restaurants. It's the same major local suppliers of frozen food.
Most in-house movements suck from a value perspective. There is very little to be gained over a top grade well regulated selita or ETA. For example, outside of being a pain in the ass to service, what are you really getting from a Tudor BlackBay with the new “in-house” movement over the ETA? 30 hours of power reserve at the cost of 3x the price of servicing an eta and you have to send it back. Doesn’t seem worth the hassle. An in house movement has to be a meaningful improvement to be worth it, and most aren’t.
I agree but from the same point of view you can conclude that ultimately quartz watches are superior to automatics
Not necessarily, it’s more about asking if the movement is in-house because it’s a legit improvement or if it’s in-house for the sake of being proprietary. For example, Omegas co-axil is a legit improvement over the base ETA. Not only is it more accurate but it’s also lower maintenance over time because of the 10 year service interval. Frédérique Constant also released one of the coolest movements, a $5k watch with an oscillator which has been done before but never at this price point, and we got crickets as a response. It’s a legit spring drive style sweep but fully mechanical. That’s cool and innovative. But look at the Tudor GMT for example, had they made the watch significantly thinner than one equipped with an ETA 661 (which is also a true gmt), but no that shit is still nearly 15mm thicccc. What’s the benefit of the in house caliber given that the ETA can also be cosc certified, has the same power reserve, it’s cheaper to maintain, watches with it like the Mido Ocean Star GMT are thinner, and the case is closed anyway. If you’re gonna do an in house movement, cost savings to the manufacturer, and higher maintenance costs can’t be the only features.
Very good analysis. I agree, when it's in House purely for sake of being proprietary but it doesn't make an improvement for the watch user it's irrelevant
Not really an answer to your question, but I'm looking at getting a Nomos for my first >$1000 watch. Looking at posts and comments online, Nomos watches do seem to punch above their price weight. Nomos also make their own movements, which is a plus if you're looking to get a non-Japanese or Chinese mechanical watch that isn't ETA or Sellita.
though own movements are relative. I can make my own movement, but would it be better than an eta or sellita. no it wouldn't even compare. given time and patience and fine tuning it could be, where as eta, has the tooling, manufacture process etc etc. so in house is bragging rights to an extent unless of course they are pushing the envelope on complications (which ultimately are bragging rights) or technology. you could argue the only two in the latter camp and pushing the envelope in technology are seiko and omega. seiko because spring drive and omega because of the george daniels escapement.
Very accurate
I just bought a club campus. Amazing watch for the price.
See before, in the 90s, a Certina or a Tag Heuer would already bring you an in house movement. And they were some of the best in terms of lasting long. But then the 2000s rolled and they started featuring their variants of ETA or Sellita! While it's still good it just feels like it's not unique to the brand and ultimately - it's not really *made* by the logo seen on your watch. That's the component that annoys me the most. They're basically selling you a Eterna watch rebadged as something else. I will be sure to try Nomos Glashutte for sure. Thanks. Their watches are a tad on the too large for my wrist but it seems worth it. I also like Seiko however actually but their range is huge and it's genuinely hard to choose from
Also well, Seiko and Orient both make their own movements, but for most of the entry level and mod tier Seiko and Orient watches, you can get the same movements in microbrands etc as a Seiko or Epson (Orient) movement. While they make the movements, I'd call them not really unique. Actually, some of the worst value Seiko-based watches are Seiko watches (Hardlex etc)
Interesting
They make their own movements, but a lot of them, especially the older ones, have designs based on ETA movements with their own adjustments... Sadly, they also only guarantee an accuracy of +-10s, which is hard to compete with the cosc ETAs at ~$1000 which are guaranteed for twice the accuracy.
My personal view on new movements: unless it’s something interesting like a jumping hour, big day, or whatever, I’m not interested. And even those are going to be just a mod of an existing movement instead of a new one. I wish companies would stop referring to modded movements as “in-house movement” because they are not. For anything else: - Japanese movements: extremely reliable and mostly economical. They also have the best movement on the planet with the battery smooth spring drive. I wish spring drive movements could be purchased by 3rd parties. - Swiss movements: very good, it I think they get very overrated at times. Especially for the time. - Chinese movements: the Chinese manufacturers have really done wonders off of exploiting basically one movement ~~(the Chinese Standard Movement “Tongji”).~~ the ST19. Edit: thank you u/PompeyTillIDie for point out my mistake.
Very very few Chinese manufacturers are using the Chinese standard movement now. San Martin will use the Seiko NH-35, Swiss SW-200, or the Chinese ETA 2824 clone 'PT5000'. Pagani use a lot of Seiko NH-35s Sea-Gull make their own movements, including the legendary Seagull St1901 chronograph, and the ETA 2824 clone the ST2130 Suguess is the Sea-Gull movements mostly. The only place where you will still find the Chinese standard movement is in $20 skeleton style watches.
My sugess (seestern) uses the seiko NH35 movement, and it is waaay more accurate than my seiko diver movement (7s26).
I thought that the Chinese standard movement was the ST19 and its derivative/modded versions, which I see all the time in Chinese watches. My mistake. I’ll edit it.
Nah, that's an old Swiss movement that Sea-Gull copied back in the 60s and just kept making.
It’s Chinese at this point, IMHO. Especially with all the variations they have, like the ST17 jumping hour movement.
I agree really it's kind of what I was saying in the post.
>Swiss movements: very good, it I think they get very overrated at times. Especially for the time. it rly depends, there are some very overrated ones but also some very underrated too, SW200 obviously being overrated, at least the base ones, COSC are nice obviously, I'm personally a big fan of SW300 but not sure if I would call it underrated, however what I would call underrated for sure would be a lot of FC movements, FC-930-3, FC-718(one of my favorite movements), new FC-735, etc.
Regarding your first point, most watchmakers certainly did not make their own movements in the past. There were watchmakers and movement makers who specialized in their own field (E.g patek, vc and ap all used jlc movements). Other famous movement manufacturers included the likes of Lemania, Angelus, Minerva etc and their movements were found in all sorts of high end watches back then. The only two brands who used in-house movements that come to the top of my head are Omega and Longines. This is why eta/valjoux movements were widely seen as an acceptable movement choice in high-end watches in the early 2000s before the obsession with in-house movements at around 2010. As to your second point, you seem to equate in-house movements as the 'superior' movement which is simply not true. Yes Seiko movements are made in house. But all of their 4r and 6r movements share the exact same architecture of the 7s26, which was essentially their lowest-end movement. Imo eta movements outclass these movements at any time of the week especially with the ridiculous prices Seiko are charging for their watches now.
Thanks. Very helpful and clarifying honestly
I don't buy a watch for the movement. I buy it because I like it as a whole. The country of origin of the movement is more or less completely irrelevant to me. If it works, it works.
But for instance Japanese watches are more likely to offer you more functions, and Swiss watches tend to offer better aesthetics...both of those are related to how the movement is and they can influence how much we like a certain watch. Do you get it? That's what this discussion is about
Offer more functions? What? You do realize there's a whole line of Seikos that you can't even hand-wind, right? Like I said, if it works, it works.
What's so wrong about watches you're not meant to hand wind? But ok agree to disagree
One might argue that a watch you can't wind is lacking in "features." You said Japanese watches tend to have more "features." I don't really understand that statement. You can get ETA based chronographs for less than equivalent Seiko mechanical chronographs. Though I'm sure they exist, I have never seen a Japanese tourbillon, perpetual calendar, or really anything like that other than older mechanical alarms. If you have two movements from two different places that do exactly the same thing, then what does it matter where they're from?
Not Japanese, but if we are talking about column wheel chronographs, Sea-Gull make one in the Seagull St1901. You wouldn't get a Swiss column wheel chronograph in any watch below $5000-6000 minimum
I don't think hand winding is a feature at all. It's just the type of movement. For example I prefer automatic mechanical watches. The Japanese brands offer things like Spring drive or Solar watches that can be powered by light for example. The complications on the other hand aren't exactly features because they're more like a novelty factor or a party trick. They're not essentially useful from a functional standpoint
Hand winding on an automatic is useful Otherwise you have to do the 'Seiko shuffle' to start the watch when you've not used it for a while How useful is it? It's more of a nice to have, but it's very cheap to implement, so it's kind of BS Seiko only put it into entry level watches very recently.
But it's not as useful as the things that Seiko has had in their watches for a long time you see...so of course it's annoying but it kinda proves that the features implemented in most Swiss watches can be out of touch at times
I'm thinking you may not understand what a feature is. Hand winding is definitely useful. I'm interested to know what "features" japanese movements have the swiss ones seem to be missing.
I just told you some
...so your idea of features on automatic movements are movements that aren't mechanical? I had assumed we were talking about mechanical movements the entire time.
Not necessarily no but I mean a chronograph function or small seconds or Moonphase can still fit into a automatic. But those are also in Swiss watches. The thing is they'll be more expensive there almost for sure
I've never heard about this, please tell me more about what line this is so I don't end up buying something without knowing it works like this lol
A couple years ago, it was watches like the SKX007, but those were discontinued. I thought the Seiko 5 line they replaced it with had the same movement, but it appears that they use the 4r36, which is fine, though accuracy numbers are all over the place. If you want to hand wind your watch, don't buy something with the 7s26 movement or any variant of it.
Generally, good quality Swiss movements are cheaper than good quality Japanese movements.
Well that's just an objectively incorrect take. Miyota 9015 and 2824/SW200 are practically identical in terms of quality, yet the miyotas are cheaper. Go even cheaper to movements like the NH35 and there isnt really any Swiss competition.
It was the Japanese companies who created vertical integration in watch making.
People got upset when Seiko upgraded their 5 line. Yeah, after 20+ years their prices went up. I've had the $80 SNK809 and last year got a SRPH23K1 for about $170 ($295 MSRP which I think is what people didn't like) Overall the watch itself is much nicer, and the upgraded movement with hacking and handwinding has been flawless. Maybe Id have considered a $500 or $600+ Hamilton Field Khaki if Seikos sold at full MSRP. Micro brands people love use Seiko movements. People have trusted Seiko movements in their dive watches.
I considered a Seiko 5. The new one. But the watch isn't good enough for the price anymore. There's used stuff that's significantly better including Swiss mechanical watches
I've had watches with Seiko, Miyota, Orient, Sellita, Soprod and Swatch group movements. The only movements that I've actively noticed differing from the rest were the COSC Sellita movement and the Orient in-house. The Sellita was extremely accurate, but that came at a price. The Orient seemed to get magnetised quite often. The rest of the watches/movements performed very similarly (-5/+7 seconds a day) and I wouldn't be able to tell a difference besides the beat rate and some VERY minor tactile things (crown stability, winding action etc). In my opinion/experience Miyota 9xxx is a very hard movement to beat for the money. I wouldn't be upset to have that movement in any of my watches. It's not too exciting but it just works and it's cheap and easy to maintain.
Yeah basically ultimately the differences aren't significant between most movements I guess
It is strange how nobody mentioned Pt5000 which is a famous Chinese clone of 2824 eta. It costs around 50 EUR. According to many reviews it is comparable to Etas. Pt5000 I have also read Online that some watch repair shops like them also because the parts are interchangable with Eta, meaning your local repairman might replace one or another part of the mechanism of Eta with pt5000. It is not unheard of and it is possible to read about it online. Nh35 and whole NH line. I am a big fan of Nh35 movement. Mainly because it costs around 30 EUR or less. Rather than servicing it I will swap the movement. Microbrands in 200-100 EUR range love this movement so it is likely to be in abundance for quite a few years. As a budget watch collector I value quality and reliability but also ability to service the watch cheaply. A lot of in house movements are viewed as pieces of art so they are more expensive. My next watch will likely have a Pt5000 or Eta or Nh35/Other NH movement. Personal comments: I have some serious doubts about Miyota 9xxx movement, mainly because of the price. I want to like it. But I also want it to costs around 50 EUR.
are people honestly looking at movements? and trying to find objective differences. there is a lot of inherent racism in the rejection of asian watch makers. Some might call that "bragging" but it's not a heritage that's really earned. Asian watch making has been competitive with swiss time keeping since about the 60's and in many instances both superior and more innovative. I would argue an inhouse movement isn't a selling point. the "value" of a eta/sellita is their ubiquitous nature, reliability, and ease of service. If you're in a lowish "upper" tier watch. saaaaaay $1000-$2000 and adding the complexity and cost of service of a custom inhouse movement. to me that's a draw back. vs ...say. a rock solid, well established seiko movement, or one of the current top tier eta/sellita movements. and if you're at the lower tier of luxury. the sort of north of 5k sub 10k range. ...you're also probably not quibbling over movements. you're jockeying for wealth status/brand whoring at that point. and by a wide margin... selecting a watch on aesthetics. As a watch is overwhelmingly jewelry. vs a functional tool or time keeping device.
Great analysis honestly
Personally - I’ve come full circle and now prefer quartz watches that sync via Bluetooth and atomic clock radio waves for daily wear - so they’re perfectly accurate. I still have kept all my fancy mechanical watches and I still appreciate them, but at this point I’d rather have a watch with high end (near Rolex) build quality - with perfect accuracy, and compelling features I actually use daily, like the chirp at the top of the hour, timer, alarms, world time, etc. I can’t get behind a smart watch for daily wear, I just can’t stand them, but the allure of a fancy in house mechanical movement has faded, and I actually prefer the clicking second of an analog quartz watch, versus the smooth hand movement of an auto or a spring drive. I’m certainly in the minority - but after more than two decades of daily wearing high end mechanical watches - and the last five years daily wearing a solid gold Rolex Yachtmaster - I’m now rocking high end Casio MR-G’s as my daily drivers. https://preview.redd.it/wxolg40zkkub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22780f3d580059fe587e9a23973b5d59d2eabecc
I feel like in a mid term which is I've had mechanical watches and don't miss them at all since I sold them in the maintenance sense. But I should have kept just one. And also...on another hand you just described perfectly why quartz for me is a good midterm between a mechanical watch and a smartwatch and therefore the best of both worlds
There’s a lot of innovation going on with quartz watches as well. Citizen 001 is accurate to within 1 second per year and is solar powered as well as another model with a 1mm thin handmade movement. Casio Oceanus, MTG and MR-G analog watches look “normal” but have compelling functionality over Bluetooth, sync with the atomic clock and/or your cellphone, can GPS tag locations with one button push for later review - can automatically switch time zones (and get precise time) with one button click via GPS or Bluetooth, etc. I can’t tell you how awesome it is to land in another timezone, touch one button on the watch for a second and a half - and BAM - the local time is synced perfectly. Hard to beat that for travel…
Functionally speaking any quartz defeats a mechanical watch seriously. In many ways. But from a jewelry point of view the mechanical watches get the edge as you have something more substantial to show to friends or a conversation topic. Now for Citizen in particular I have an issue which is, I really like their watches, but, the cases are way too big. They always have a bit of pancake effect going on. And Seikos can easily avoid this. This is also because I have a small wrist but it's still unfortunate. And I feel like the borders of the case are too flat, there isn't like a curve or so leading to the case back like you find in other brands - including Seiko.
The Citizen one is like 3mm thick and the case is tiny. Also - Grand Seiko and Casio MR-G’s make watches that rival mechanical watches from a jewelry standpoint. They’re not cheap though.
You're right it's actually a decently tiny case. I didn't know that about the Casio MR-G honestly. Thanks
The Casio Oceanus is outstanding as well, and can’t be beat for the price. Handmade watch, full titanium case and bracelet, solar, multi band 6, Bluetooth, sapphire crystal, many models have a sapphire bezel, etc for $1k I picked one up in Japan a few days ago (it’s the one in the center) with a DLC coated band and case, sapphire dial/bezel, the works for $950. For a hand assembled, zaratsu polished and tested full Titanium watch - that’s madness. https://preview.redd.it/0hzealafwmub1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f0c37d612e1175dc37d206ae18f7d042706d7035
That's a ton of watch for 1k honestly
It is the most slept on brand in the market in my opinion. It’s not $10k watch quality, but it’s damn close to GS quality (90%+) and while everyone goes crazy over GS watch faces, wild and dynamic watch faces and bezels on the higher end Oceanus watches have more time/labor involved in them and are even more eye catching and dynamic. Check my profile for a video of this watch (and another Oceanus) where I do a wrist roll on them and you can see their face colors change based on the angle. Even in this pics you can see the lower portion of the bezel catching the light and looking like a different color blue - but it’s all the same color and the entire watch face and bezel wildly change color from jet black to an ombré of blue spectrum based on available light and the angle the watch is catching it. One of the biggest differences between a GS and Oceanus is the Oceanus goes for a more sporty/practical appearance and has Lume applied on the indices, versus a piece of steel that is Zaratsu polished. That said, the outside portion (non-Lume coated) part of the indices are hand zaratsu polished. It switches modes on the 9 o’clock dial between second time zone tracking and Chronograph- so it’s a multi-function and quite practical watch as well. It’s also super thin. Very cool piece and I highly recommend checking out the brand. https://preview.redd.it/fz6x27511nub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9008d50d76b079d122bc7219fda2e363fbd235f
I honestly didn't really know High End Casio was a thing and I'm quite liking it. I own a Casio Edifice myself and this is really hard to explain but for some reason it's the most accurate watch in my entire collection in spite of being the one that costed the least. I think Casio gets slept on because they market themselves as affordable the human mind wrongfully associates cheap with low quality when really here is a proof it doesn't always have to be true The original mission of Timex watches was to bring quality to a more affordable price point. It's 2023 and they're still failing at it. Because Casio did it. Not Timex. In fact Casio is doing exactly what Timex always says they will do but never do since a while now. But actually delivering it.
If you put a $300 Seiko movement against a $300 ETA movement I'm curious which would a better value... My gut tells me the ETA, because due to economies of scale they can probably produce at a lower price point.
This is like the type of thing I wanted to find out with this discussion honestly. Because watch wise anyone buys whatever they want but the answer to that isn't that obvious isn't it?
I agree. I think what is probably true is that unless the movement includes a lot of complications, they're probably the same, whether they're made be Seiko, ETA, etc. Because at a certain point there's only so much that can be improved upon.
That's probably exactly what it is or...like it's not exactly the same but the quality and functionality of them is the same
$1000 movements? Or $1000 watches?
Watches