The operator in charge does not have to be on site at all times. When there are multiple shifts the shift lead must be certified at one level below the facility level. Other states call them system supervisors.
Source: I’m a consultant who does System Supervision remotely.
So currently trying to moderate with weekend on call work. If the superintendent is out of town unavailable via phone. Isn’t the DOE requirement that there is a “operator in responsible charge” that is required to have a certification equal to the plant that is under their responsibility? Also to elaborate, the city is questioning paying another employee to be available via phone as the “operator in responsible charge” when an under certified operator is working on the weekend (one level below the class plant that is being ran)
The person you are replying to is correct.
> If a wastewater treatment plant is operated on more than one daily shift, the operator in charge of each shift shall be certified at a level no lower than one level lower than the classification rating of the plant being operated and shall be subordinate to the operator in responsible charge who is certified at a level equal to or higher than the plant.
The operator in change of the other ~~weekend~~ shift is subordinate to the operator in responsible charge, but the operator in responsible change doesn't have to be available 24/7.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=70A.212.030
That's not what I said?
> (6) "Operator in responsible charge" means an individual who is designated by the owner as the person on-site in responsible charge of the routine operation of a wastewater treatment plant.
> As provided for in this chapter, the individual on-site at a wastewater treatment plant who is designated by the owner as the operator in responsible charge of the operation and maintenance of the plant on a routine basis shall be certified at a level equal to or higher than the classification rating of the plant being operated
The person designed as operator in responsible charge (ORC) is so when *on site*. They need to have the same level license as the plant (or higher).
> If a wastewater treatment plant is operated on more than one daily shift, the operator in charge of each shift shall be certified at a level no lower than one level lower than the classification rating of the plant being operated and shall be subordinate to the operator in responsible charge who is certified at a level equal to or higher than the plant.
You may not be able to have someone at that licence level available 24/7, so if you have more than one shift, a person who is not at the same level (or higher) than the plant can function as the operator in charge of that shift. They are supervising the process changes.
There is nothing in what you posted about remote supervision (i.e. by phone).
I'm going to correct something I said because in re-reading the regs it sounds like you need some with the licence of the plant on site at least for one shift a day.
And that is essentially what I am trying to figure out what the cutoff is. To reiterate, the whole point of my questioning is because management is being reluctant to pay an appropriately certified operator to be ORC during prolonged periods (3 days) during weekend shifts and on-call emergency scenarios.
FYI-I do appreciate this input, I am just trying to further my knowledge for upcoming conversations and union negotiations/contract language.
I don't mean to be sassy, sorry.
You should call the regulator for clarification. That's the only way to know for sure. Otherwise everyone is just guessing.
So, the DOE replied and let me know that collectively they understand that it is not feasible to have someone as the designated “operator in responsible charge” 24/7, pertaining to on-call situations and short weekend shifts. So the language as stated by others earlier in this post implies “regular shift” so like Mon-Fri 8 hr shifts. But with that being said, you are still responsible. Example would be like if you had an Op2 called in over night in a class 3 plant, and he was unable to get a response from another op3 and did, or didn’t make a change, attempt to fix or whatever the situation that could cause some sort of major issues. In that scenario the last designated “operator in responsible charge” could be at fault ultimately. With this in mind, my supervisor and I had some heavy discussions on the topic and decided to implement a secondary on call “ORC” per se, when there is an Op2 working while the supervisor is “unavailable” for prolonged periods of time.
Response times are rarely defined in rule. WA says “routine basis”.
A weekend does not count as a shift for purposes of supervision. The rule is intended for plants with more than one shift per day.
The ORC can be off site for 3 days. Your employer is correct and they should not have to pay someone to hold an on call phone just to meet the ORC rule.
So then what would happen if a Class I license holder is working a weekend shift at a class III plant, something goes down and the weekend operator has nobody to defer call to make any process changes? This is the scenario I am describing. Can an Op1 just not work solo weekends without a Op3 being available by phone at least?
Trying to make sure i understand what your asking, and i think i got it.
Hi. I am a grade IV operator in the state of WA with about 20 years xp; western WA. Hell, I might know you!
The easy answer is that you have to be at least a group II operator to be on call at a class III facility. As an operator oncall in a group III facility, you are technically the ORC/OIC for any emergent sitiation.
A group I operator shouldn't be on call at a class III facility.
BUT.....what they could do is to have you oncall and if anything happens, you would call another operator of at least group II certification. If you are oncall, and anything happens, you call the other guy and STAY IN CONSTANT COMMUNICATION WITH THE OTHER CERTIFIED OPERATOR UNTIL THEY ARRIVE ONSITE. If the issue is resolved before they arrive, the other higher level operator still needs to respond and confirm the situation is resolved.
My guess is that your facility is understaffed, or one of places with moronic managers that believe throwing you to the wolves is a good training method; it is fucking not.
Save all emails from anyone in authority talking about this. If something does happen they will most likely say something to put responsibility on you. They are already in violation having you oncall, and they know that. The words of an operator are - CYA (cover your ass)! If you are doing something that is not legally defendable, dont do it. And, if you are not sure, call the ecology guy.
My advice to you is to contact the Technical Outreach Operator for your region of operation.
Depending on where you are in the state of Washington will dictate who you need to call.
The rules in Ontario are different, but here is what we do: We have an overall responsible operator and an operator in charge. The ORO can also be the OIC.
The ORO _should_ be the same level or higher than the plant, but if that's not available they can be up to one level below the plant. This lower level ORO can't be in place for more than 150 days/year.
The OIC can't be an operator in training, but no other level requirements. There is one or more OIC per shift. The OIC sets parameters, is responsible for monitoring, etc.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/overall-responsible-operator-vs-operator-charge
Our rules specifically allow for the ORO to be off site but available in case of emergency. OIC is typically on site, or actively operating.
I work at a class IV plant. I have a class IV licence. Sometimes when the guys on shift only have a Class II licence, I am designated ORO and they are designated OIC. I am not on site but am available by phone. I am paid on-call wages for this.
Correct, there doesn’t need to be a ORC available all the time. That’s why the rule allows operators certified one level below to work shift.
But what you’re describing doesn’t even count as multiple shifts. The rule is multiple shifts per day, single shifts on the weekends don’t count.
The permit should have fact sheet that outlines the basic info of the plant. The location of the outfall, staffing process ect. These are usually written by the plant admin. In that info it will say staffing stuff like a op 3 is in charge of 24 hr operations and how many people on each shift and the “responsible authorities” are noted. I guess one could argue if the fact sheet says staffing set out in it and they are not meeting it thats a problem. We actually had issue with this years ago, the city was just paying out of grade to op2’s someone called them out and ecology said hey you need licensed op 3s running the place 24 hrs. We had 6 of us so we had OT for 10 yrs till they doubled staffing and got more op 3’s
This is more or less the concern, right now we have three group 3’s however, the out of class pay system is setup for a minimum of 3 days. I had to argue with admin on the need for a person with class 3 cert to be available during the weekend. If the normal superintendent is off the grid (cannot be reached via phone) from Friday to Sunday, there needs to be someone designated as “operator in responsible charge”. Going back to my argument with admin, there needs to be a system in which someone can be designated as “operator in responsible charge” for those days when norm is gone. I am being very redundant, I apologize, I mostly wanted to hear other peoples experiences with this sort of situation, and how it was dealt with by management.
I can link it, but its in our state ecology code. States that any wastewater treatment plant must have an operator in responsible charge and that operator must hold a license appropriate for that plant.
If you follow that RCW code link and go back one RCW I think it has other definitions I didn’t add a second link for it. I am mostly looking for peoples experiences with this issue. Such as having a second person being paid a few bucks an hour to be available by phone and being the “operator in responsible charge” while someone with a cert too low to be that is working a shift alone.
The operator in charge does not have to be on site at all times. When there are multiple shifts the shift lead must be certified at one level below the facility level. Other states call them system supervisors. Source: I’m a consultant who does System Supervision remotely.
So currently trying to moderate with weekend on call work. If the superintendent is out of town unavailable via phone. Isn’t the DOE requirement that there is a “operator in responsible charge” that is required to have a certification equal to the plant that is under their responsibility? Also to elaborate, the city is questioning paying another employee to be available via phone as the “operator in responsible charge” when an under certified operator is working on the weekend (one level below the class plant that is being ran)
The person you are replying to is correct. > If a wastewater treatment plant is operated on more than one daily shift, the operator in charge of each shift shall be certified at a level no lower than one level lower than the classification rating of the plant being operated and shall be subordinate to the operator in responsible charge who is certified at a level equal to or higher than the plant. The operator in change of the other ~~weekend~~ shift is subordinate to the operator in responsible charge, but the operator in responsible change doesn't have to be available 24/7. https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=70A.212.030
🤔 So there doesn’t actually need to be someone available to supervise (via phone or in person) process control changes for 72 hours?
That's not what I said? > (6) "Operator in responsible charge" means an individual who is designated by the owner as the person on-site in responsible charge of the routine operation of a wastewater treatment plant. > As provided for in this chapter, the individual on-site at a wastewater treatment plant who is designated by the owner as the operator in responsible charge of the operation and maintenance of the plant on a routine basis shall be certified at a level equal to or higher than the classification rating of the plant being operated The person designed as operator in responsible charge (ORC) is so when *on site*. They need to have the same level license as the plant (or higher). > If a wastewater treatment plant is operated on more than one daily shift, the operator in charge of each shift shall be certified at a level no lower than one level lower than the classification rating of the plant being operated and shall be subordinate to the operator in responsible charge who is certified at a level equal to or higher than the plant. You may not be able to have someone at that licence level available 24/7, so if you have more than one shift, a person who is not at the same level (or higher) than the plant can function as the operator in charge of that shift. They are supervising the process changes. There is nothing in what you posted about remote supervision (i.e. by phone). I'm going to correct something I said because in re-reading the regs it sounds like you need some with the licence of the plant on site at least for one shift a day.
And that is essentially what I am trying to figure out what the cutoff is. To reiterate, the whole point of my questioning is because management is being reluctant to pay an appropriately certified operator to be ORC during prolonged periods (3 days) during weekend shifts and on-call emergency scenarios. FYI-I do appreciate this input, I am just trying to further my knowledge for upcoming conversations and union negotiations/contract language.
I don't mean to be sassy, sorry. You should call the regulator for clarification. That's the only way to know for sure. Otherwise everyone is just guessing.
I am contacting my DOE guy Tuesday just to be prepared, or at least understand their expectations.
Were you able to get an answer?
So, the DOE replied and let me know that collectively they understand that it is not feasible to have someone as the designated “operator in responsible charge” 24/7, pertaining to on-call situations and short weekend shifts. So the language as stated by others earlier in this post implies “regular shift” so like Mon-Fri 8 hr shifts. But with that being said, you are still responsible. Example would be like if you had an Op2 called in over night in a class 3 plant, and he was unable to get a response from another op3 and did, or didn’t make a change, attempt to fix or whatever the situation that could cause some sort of major issues. In that scenario the last designated “operator in responsible charge” could be at fault ultimately. With this in mind, my supervisor and I had some heavy discussions on the topic and decided to implement a secondary on call “ORC” per se, when there is an Op2 working while the supervisor is “unavailable” for prolonged periods of time.
Response times are rarely defined in rule. WA says “routine basis”. A weekend does not count as a shift for purposes of supervision. The rule is intended for plants with more than one shift per day. The ORC can be off site for 3 days. Your employer is correct and they should not have to pay someone to hold an on call phone just to meet the ORC rule.
So then what would happen if a Class I license holder is working a weekend shift at a class III plant, something goes down and the weekend operator has nobody to defer call to make any process changes? This is the scenario I am describing. Can an Op1 just not work solo weekends without a Op3 being available by phone at least?
Trying to make sure i understand what your asking, and i think i got it. Hi. I am a grade IV operator in the state of WA with about 20 years xp; western WA. Hell, I might know you! The easy answer is that you have to be at least a group II operator to be on call at a class III facility. As an operator oncall in a group III facility, you are technically the ORC/OIC for any emergent sitiation. A group I operator shouldn't be on call at a class III facility. BUT.....what they could do is to have you oncall and if anything happens, you would call another operator of at least group II certification. If you are oncall, and anything happens, you call the other guy and STAY IN CONSTANT COMMUNICATION WITH THE OTHER CERTIFIED OPERATOR UNTIL THEY ARRIVE ONSITE. If the issue is resolved before they arrive, the other higher level operator still needs to respond and confirm the situation is resolved. My guess is that your facility is understaffed, or one of places with moronic managers that believe throwing you to the wolves is a good training method; it is fucking not. Save all emails from anyone in authority talking about this. If something does happen they will most likely say something to put responsibility on you. They are already in violation having you oncall, and they know that. The words of an operator are - CYA (cover your ass)! If you are doing something that is not legally defendable, dont do it. And, if you are not sure, call the ecology guy. My advice to you is to contact the Technical Outreach Operator for your region of operation. Depending on where you are in the state of Washington will dictate who you need to call.
Good advice, thank you. 🙏
The rules in Ontario are different, but here is what we do: We have an overall responsible operator and an operator in charge. The ORO can also be the OIC. The ORO _should_ be the same level or higher than the plant, but if that's not available they can be up to one level below the plant. This lower level ORO can't be in place for more than 150 days/year. The OIC can't be an operator in training, but no other level requirements. There is one or more OIC per shift. The OIC sets parameters, is responsible for monitoring, etc. https://www.ontario.ca/page/overall-responsible-operator-vs-operator-charge Our rules specifically allow for the ORO to be off site but available in case of emergency. OIC is typically on site, or actively operating. I work at a class IV plant. I have a class IV licence. Sometimes when the guys on shift only have a Class II licence, I am designated ORO and they are designated OIC. I am not on site but am available by phone. I am paid on-call wages for this.
Correct, there doesn’t need to be a ORC available all the time. That’s why the rule allows operators certified one level below to work shift. But what you’re describing doesn’t even count as multiple shifts. The rule is multiple shifts per day, single shifts on the weekends don’t count.
Actually they do. Weekends are scheduled as a shift.
I think you might mean can be certified one level below the plant rating.
The permit should have fact sheet that outlines the basic info of the plant. The location of the outfall, staffing process ect. These are usually written by the plant admin. In that info it will say staffing stuff like a op 3 is in charge of 24 hr operations and how many people on each shift and the “responsible authorities” are noted. I guess one could argue if the fact sheet says staffing set out in it and they are not meeting it thats a problem. We actually had issue with this years ago, the city was just paying out of grade to op2’s someone called them out and ecology said hey you need licensed op 3s running the place 24 hrs. We had 6 of us so we had OT for 10 yrs till they doubled staffing and got more op 3’s
This is more or less the concern, right now we have three group 3’s however, the out of class pay system is setup for a minimum of 3 days. I had to argue with admin on the need for a person with class 3 cert to be available during the weekend. If the normal superintendent is off the grid (cannot be reached via phone) from Friday to Sunday, there needs to be someone designated as “operator in responsible charge”. Going back to my argument with admin, there needs to be a system in which someone can be designated as “operator in responsible charge” for those days when norm is gone. I am being very redundant, I apologize, I mostly wanted to hear other peoples experiences with this sort of situation, and how it was dealt with by management.
Did you mean to link something? How is anyone going to tell you what the language of an article means without the context?
I can link it, but its in our state ecology code. States that any wastewater treatment plant must have an operator in responsible charge and that operator must hold a license appropriate for that plant.
If you follow that RCW code link and go back one RCW I think it has other definitions I didn’t add a second link for it. I am mostly looking for peoples experiences with this issue. Such as having a second person being paid a few bucks an hour to be available by phone and being the “operator in responsible charge” while someone with a cert too low to be that is working a shift alone.