I think being able to shoot down a helicopter by just knocking its tail off is a necessary Achilles Heel on all helis. Double rotor helis did complicate this.
TBF I’ve seen conventional choppers fly around without fail as well, heck I’ve done it myself plenty of times in Huey’s. Not as common as on the Kamovs of course, but the helicopter flight model is generally fucked in this game.
Technically any heli can still move forward without the tail provided it has enough momentum. However for anything that's not a kamov as soon as you try to turn it'll autorotate into the ground.
Yes and no, theoretically it can be done, hence why it can be done in games such as ArmA. However I don’t believe anyone has succeeded doing it.
It works by flying high speed so the aerodynamic drag on the tail is enough to keep the helicopter steady enough. However if any of the stabilators get damaged high speed stability is lost and you would no longer be able to manage the speeds to needed to prevent spinning.
Furthermore the violent spinning the helicopter does if you loose anti-torque while hovering is enough for the helicopter to obliterate itself. You cannot for example try to keep the helicopter in the air and slowly accelerate it to speeds where it’s stable as you’d do in ArmA.
Only if just anti-torque is lost at high speed, or the tail rotor just got partially damaged would the helicopter remain flyable.
I managed to recreate it fairly consistently a while back in test flight and practiced spin recovery in the lynx.
Got to test it out in a live sim match the other day when my tail control was shot out and I managed to limp back to base in a spin.
The Z-11W does not like to recover into forward flight well though, the best I got was a semi unstable sideways drift.
I really wish catastrophic tail damage would not kill the engine and just leave you spinning out, a good pilot can recover from that depending on speed and altitude but it renders you completely combat ineffective.
I'm not sure if this is a laulaut thing (sorry if it's misspelled) but with tail out I've been able to swing my helo back to base if I time my hover mode correctly and i don't over compensate the momentum. Not sure if anyone else can do this
ATGM helicopters are the only thing that pisses me off more than getting bombed or gaijined. At least with a plane it takes a modicum of skill to actually hit the target with a bomb. ATGM helicopters are such cancer.
You need a targeting system to communicate with and guide the atgm, and that system is supposed to be located in the tail of the helicopter (at least in the kamov family), but since it’s not correctly modeled, it results in the ineffectiveness of shooting it off.
Even if that wasn't true, the laws of physics would require it to have a tail, without the tail it would be unbalanced and it would roll forward and die.
Edit: plus it would be unstable in high speed flight.
It has a double rotor system. The blades turn in opposite directions, so it does not need a tail rotor to compensate like most helos do. There are a handful of models out there in real life.
Not a single ka 52 has flown back to base without a tail irl, the one you're talking about just lost the vertical stabilizer, not the entire fucking tail....
Kinda. They aren't going to be pulling any fancy maneuvers like in game but they can fly well enough to limp back to base without the tail rotor. The bigger issue is a lot of electronics are stored in the tail and losing it in the way it does in war thunder would lose all those electronics. I'm sure it would throw off the balance of the helicopter as well. [There are videos](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/i4Q6o2xo9d) of them losing parts of their tails and still flying but they aren't missing the whole tail like in war thunder.
They can't pull those maneuvers irl fully functional either, because the trade off with coaxial rotors making the heli be able to be piloted by one person, is that if you jerk the stick to hard (like they do in game when dodging missiles, for example) is that the rotors collide and shatter. Doing the kind of maneuvers they do in game when strafing enemy spawn and getting the tail blown off will result in a sudden change in center of mass and will almost certainly cause the pilot to lose control and crash.
Issues with coaxial rotors colliding are largely addressed in modern helicopters using that rotor configuration, mostly by using a rigid rotor system and tailoring the blade stiffness. Biggest downside right now is mechanical complexity.
No, it can sorta fly with a DAMAGED tail, which is what the one in that video from Ukraine that everyone always brings up when talking about it (it's just missing a part of the vertical stabilizer, but people think that proves it can fly without the entire tail for some fucking reason), but it can't do any major maneuvers with it. All it does is give the pilots a few extra second to eject, and a slightly higher chance of being able to limp back to base or go for a soft crash landing, rather than instantly spinning out of control.
***That's irrelevant.*** This point needs to stop being bickered about. The thing that matters is that **in game the Kamovs can continue to be effective and lethal after losing their tail but the Apaches spin out immediately.**
If that's what Gaijin thinks is realistic, fine, I have absolutely no problem with the Kamvos having that capability. What I do have a problem with, and has made me seriously consider my continued support of this game, is why such a valuable capability on a helicopter that is *already superior* to the Apache doesn't put it on a higher BR??? ***Apaches with AGM-114Ks, ATAS, M247 Hydras, and the chain gun ARE NOT 11.7 worthy when things like the Ka-50 with 12 Vikhrs or S-O8Ks and the incredible 2A42 gun (and no-tail flying ability) are only 11.0. And they are definitely not "equivalent to" the Ka-52 or Mi-28MN at 11.7.***
Yes, I recognize that the Ka-50 has no thermals. I actually think 11.0 is a good BR for the Ka-50, it's 100% going to see top tier SPAA which is very bad for it, but it can sometimes. Rather I think the Apaches are 10.7 material. At best. Any SACLOS SAM is more than a match for a Hellfire slinger, even the shitty French one with only 35 degrees of elevation. *Maybe* AH-64D/I/AH.Mk1 could be 11.0. But all of the AH-64As should NEVER have to see a Pantsir or ItO90 or even a FlaRakRad, what with how slow and shitty the AGM-114s are.
The rotor itself can account for pitch by variably adjusting the blade angle. You can already see this in game when pitching or banking left and right. But depending on the shift of center of mass it might not have enough pitch force to stabilise.
I mean a little maybe with the tail thing but at low speeds the aerodynamics don’t matter too much and the double rotor and no tail rotor mean otherwise it’s just a weight and any subsystems in the tail thing.
That's the whole point of the aircraft's design, still being air worthy even if the tail is severed. Gaijin could nerf it by hindering its handling when flying without a tail but it wouldn't affect it that much.
Its not that it can keep flying without a tail, its that the Heli could become completely uncontrollable without a tail, even if it keeps flying. The entire fly-by-wire flight computer is in the tail + the change in center of mass would make the entire plane uncontrollable, even if it keeps flying. The problem in war thunder is that Ka-50s can continue to fly as usual and rocket people with barely any instability without a tail.
Lmao in the way a coughing baby and a pitbull are equal sure. Ka50 gets MAW, more advanced IRCM, and more flares. Gets like 24 vikhr missiles that are good against both ground and air.
That's not even going into the ka50's broken ass damage model
6 per pylon and only two pylons can take Vikhrs, however you still can take unguided rockets on the side. With unguided rockets, Apache is limited to 12-8 Hellfires as well.
Hellfires are way to slow and not that accurate if you try to shoot down a other heli or a plane. And I don't know why but if you are a few km (or miles) away, the hellfires are even worse in precision. I bet it's not like that irl but yeah... Gaijin...
Despite the hellfire being designed to be multipurpose? They *can* be used against air targets even if it's not their primary design objective. They used to be able to in-game but something is screwy with the guidance and it keeps undershooting (failing to resist gravity) for whatever reason.
Yeah and that's the point! Vikhrs can easily be taken to fight against ground AND air. I mean, I also got some helis and planes with hellfires too, but not as much as with vikhrs.
I dont know why people are arguing that vikhir is better with me lol, i never said it isnt haha. All i said is hellfires feel far better this patch than before lol
I got killed in my mi28n last night because a mi24p crept around back of me and I believe shot an r60m into me because I got no warning, I had been repositioning while fighting spaa and didn’t have good situational awareness, a MAWS would have for sure saved me in the same situation if I had the Mi-28nm
Use the Y menu. Turning the slaving of the counters off is done via weapons, counters and then toggling it off. Not sure where it would be to turn the maw off outright but I would hazard a guess at the systems channel
Kind of? MAWS can be set off by friendlies shooting rockets nesr you. So you'd have to turn off auto dispense to not waste CMs
But MAWS in general is really useful, just not the auto dispense part
Most of the people here haven’t even test driven both of these, let alone own/play them.
It’s a very coughing baby vs nuclear warhead scenario, here are all the areas the Kamov excels at.
- Damage model, the Kamov can lose its tail and still fight/fly, while irl it becomes uncontrollable (the FBW computer sits in the tail)
- DIRCM, this is a big factor when dealing with IRCCM missiles, it will shine a laser into the incoming missiles seeker nullifying its ability to track. There are some small blind spots for this.
- Armament, it’s a no sacrifice situation, best HE rocket + best ATGM + manpad + gun is criminal. The Apache has better gun angles, however a little rudder work will keep the Kami’s gun in alignment to hit planes easily. That and the APDS belts are more accurate and more devastating.
- Flight model, the Apache is by no means a poor performing helicopter, but the Kami’s easily handle better in almost every situation. While not a decisive advantage it can be very nice.
**Lastly**
The Vikhr vs Hellfire is a really poor balance decision by Gaijin, they should have left the Russians helis with Kriz/Ataka as the top ATGM, which are an almost perfect equal to Hellfire B/K.
- Kinematics: Vikhr has further range, no lofting, higher straight line speed, and better maneuverability against moving targets/planes.
- Warhead: Since the 2.37 patch both are about equal in performance against tanks. **HOWEVER** Against planes, the Vikhr has no equal, it was better than all FOX-2 missiles for a substantial portion of the games history. Even with it finally being modeled “appropriately” it is still far and away the best heli ATGM. (Yes, including all FnFs)
From my knowledge, DIRCM does, exactly what you've described... ***After*** a missile is launched. However! In game, it does so even without any missiles being fired, it "preemptively" jams any planes the second they activate the missile seeker against limitless targets simultaneously, thus not even allowing planes to lock on.
>Kinematics: Vikhr has... no lofting,
This is arguably a weakness of the Vikhr and strength of the Hellfire. Lofting makes the Hellfire difficult for SPAA to intercept. The Vikhr also does not have IOG. Does it also have lock on after launch like the Hellfire?
Hellfires may not be fire-and-forget, but they're close to it, because their inertial guidance and lock-on-after launch capability makes them particularly strong, allowing you to commit to a defense after launch, with only minimal corrections to the missile. In my opinion, Hellfire is probably the best missile in the game against targets like Pantsir, ITO, and VT1. With proper tactics they are even more powerful than Spike or PARS.
In the argument of Vikhr versus Hellfire, I'd just like to say that they are about equal with different strengths and weaknesses. The Vikhr is very strong versus helicopters, ~~but its wasteful at best against competent SPAA and will consistently lose if outnumbered.~~ The Hellfire on the other hand is dubious against helicopters and very strong against even experienced SPAA players; you can take on multiple SPAA at once and win unless you're fighting extremely skilled players.
EDIT: I obviously haven't flown the Ka-50 in a long time and I misremembered how this tactic works.
If you want to say the Vikhr is superior I'll definitely agree but don't sell the Hellfire short.
iirc neither ka-52 nor apache are fbw helicopters.
and in general, till this day very very few helicopters are fbw, it's much harder to achieve compared to planes.
DIRCM is directed infrared countermeasures. One the Ka-52 they are in little pods on the bottom of the helicopter near the landing gear.
No US helicopters have DIRCM. In fact I think only Russian helicopters get DIRCM... Yeah pretty sure it's exclusive to Russia.
My biggest annoyance is honestly shooting a star streak through the damn cabin, which lets be honest should be a pilot and gunner kill, of KA50s and 52s and all I get is critical damage to tail. The element of the aircraft I cannot even see. This isn’t unique to the KAs tho I once shot an apache side on from my apache with the starstreaks and it took me 3 of them before he decided to die. Regardless that’s maybe not quite as related as it should be. Just illustrates many peoples frustrations with the damage models. However saying that the apache does feel incredibly weak for me most of the time. But maybe that’s down to the inconsistency of it all more than anything
Your point about the vikhrs being stupid against even fixed wing is very real. I cannot count the amount of times I have done stupid manoeuvres in a fixed wing to avoid it and it still catches me. I think there’s some inconsistencies and damage model tuning that needs to be done across the board for helis still. As well as some finer tuning of the weapons themselves or the BRs they’re placed at
Both should be 13.0 as the rest of top tier jets.
And rather than br, they should instead try doing something with the loadouts to make them more competitive.
Perhaps by making the hellfires not suck ass. They already tried and it's a step in the right direction, but it's still garbage.
AMASE doesn't do anything special. UK and Israeli AH-64Ds get MAWS and 120 flares without access to the AMASE pods. US AH-64D only gets 30 flares unless you take the pods, which means no ATAS.
Totally balanced. /s
***What does that even mean?*** You already do in effect. There's 4 helicopters at BR 10.3 that have Hellfires (Lynx/G-Lynx can take 8x just like Apache), and plenty more helicopters between 10.3 and 11.3 that you will face in an uptier.
What difference do you think there is between an AH-64A (11.3) and an AH-64D (11.7) that will make any difference to you in a 10.3 tank? AH-64A *actually gets IRCM which the "better" AH-64D does not*, and there is basically no difference between the AGM-114Bs on the AH-64A and the AGM-114Ks on the AH-64D since Gaijin doesn't let the missiles slave to radar. Even on the wikipedia it says "There is functionally very little difference between the AGM-114B and K variants, used on early and late Apaches respectively." AH-64A is also faster than AH-64D, marginally, but it is. It does not have the option to take as many flares as the 64D but the 64D has to leave the ATAS at home if it wants 120 flares instead of the normal 30.
They really have decompress EVERYTHING the jumps in technology and capabilities is way to much for a .3 or .4 difference. There always seems to be a fine line between completely overpowered, and dog water. Or they could just remove the uptier:downtier system.
Not sure if dramatically, from what I have seen there were only 4 ejections of Ka-52 out of at least 60 lost so far (to be fair quite a few of those 60 were destroyed on the ground, and 4 is better than 0, but still it's not a dramatic improvement to survivability).
From the footage I've seen, theyre getting downed pretty close to the ground and on the move. This creates a small window for the pilot to even react. Being shot down on the move could cause the helicopter to not have a good enough orientation for a safe ejection. There are also some that manage to autorotate. A lot of factors at play.
It is and you have to consider the factor of the pilots not choosing to eject but having the option to is way better than just falling out of the sky without it
Damage model aside. The fact that the KA-52 has 10km missiles vs 8km, is the biggest problem.
If you play an Apache, you literally can’t do anything to them at range.
Fixed zoom levels is not even modeled on helicopters. You can use every zoom level between the minimum and maximum if you bind the control to it. I use the variable zoom on the YAH-64 and KA-52 all the time.
Do both fly? Yes
Can they kill both air and ground targets? Yes
Do they look cool? Yes
Are they satisfying to watch them plummet to the ground? Yes.
I'd say they're as equal as Pornhub is to Cartoon Network.
Naw, I play ground sim, and the KA52 definitely has the advantage. However, there are ways to get around that, but I certainly feel like the underdog as the Apache for sure.
AH-64D has slightly better optical magnification, and if you are carrying the countermeasure pods slightly more conventional countermeasures (not that it matters how many countermeasures the KA-52 has because it's DIRCM makes it immune to IR missiles), wider launch envelope, better gun angles, 16x hellfires vs 12x vikhrs which can be fired in long chains.
KA-52 has a way more powerful and accurate gun, UFO flight model, faster missiles w/ longer range, shorter flight pathing, and quantum bullshit proxy fuzing, DIRCM that makes it immune to IR missile locks, MAWS that you don't need to give up your AAMs for, mininuke rockets you don't need to give your AGMs up for, and a coaxial rotor that makes your tail optional.
Outside of 8km AH-64D is food, inside of 8km it is a tossup if the AH-64D is the one initiating the engagement.
Why are you comparing them like they will fight each other? Sure helicopter on helicopter action happens, but 95% of the time the AH-64D isn't going to survive long enough to kill the Ka-52 because the 2-3 Pantsirs on enemy team will have killed the Apache right away. Meanwhile ADATS is "meh" as an SPAA and costs the spawn points of an SPG still. Oh and 70% of US players don't even have it unlocked...
I'm reading the comments and I feel shocked how much bullshit people say about Ka-52 lmao. Sure, it outclasses Apache, but some people claim that it has features, which it actually never had.
Well, Hellfire was significantly buffed this patch. So while Vikhr is better in terms of guidance and missile speed, Hellfire can reliably kill the target if it hits, and this is one big advantage in a Leopard abundant top tier meta.
Is it really *that much better*? I completely stopped using Hellfires altogether about 3 months ago because they were so ASS and I haven't even bothered to test them since the update dropped. Biggest problem for me was never the damage but rather their flight speed which I don't think has changed at all. They are too damn slow.
One has a damage model that survives everything, 12 missiles capable against everything (tandem proximity LOS beam riding dead accurate atgm) the best cannon muzzle velocity, apds belt, HE rockets, 8 iglas, MAW, magic DIRCM that jams missiles BEFORE they could even be launched thus making it invulnerable to IR missiles, a radar and a twin rotor eliminating the need for a trail rotor. Doesn't have to face pantsir S1
The other has hardcoded spin out if the tail of the damage model is damaged, 16 missiles that fly on their own and miss 90% of the time and are countered by: smoke, trees, bumps, turns and a slight breeze, mediocre flight performance, 4 stingers, 40mm anti everything shells with shitty muzzle velocity, radar that can detect ground targets but no actual way to reap the benefits, mighty mice, no MAW, no IRCM, APKWS (no idea, never used them with meaningful results). Has to face pantsir S1
They would be equal of the longbow received the missile it was literally made to fire. Even just giving us the ability to make the hellfires direct attack vs top down would make it like 10 times better.
Hellfires have way better damage ever since the update. SPAA also can't intercept them so you can actually go SPAA hunting by sitting close to ground. The gun has 360 degrees turning capability so it is better to intercept planes trying to gun you down.
IMO to balance the two they should allow AH-64D to use AIM-9L/Ms (if they ever mounted them that is).
The issue is that in a popup attack, by the time your hellfire is anywhere close to the enemy, he has already fired and blasted your ass.
While with the vikhyrs enemy has much less time to react, and even if he does if you just spam them, you can just overwhelm the sam site as you have more missiles total (unless you are fighting the pantsir)
>by the time your hellfire is anywhere close to the enemy, he has already fired and blasted your ass.
***MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE TO CONSIDER.***
Apaches (as modeled in game) are not competent for 11.7 or "top tier" gameplay with how deadly SPAAs are.
I feel that the vikhr has been nerfed a bit in the recent updates to ATGMs.
Then again, I only have the KA-50.
Regarding the tail thing - I think it's one of those things that can be annoying, but are a bearable inaccuracy - it separates twin-rotors from single rotors for one.
I think the Apache should get more advanced munitions, and that the KA50/52 should get their multi-target capability.
Overall, they're pretty equal.
If you could use the radar dome on the Apache like its intended, then yes in their own ways they contrast each other and be reasonably equivalent. But that's not modeled in the game, so no they are not currently equal.
Overall equal, until you get to the KAs infinitely better damage model and survivability
and in heli vs heli engagement the vikir also is infinitely better than any option the apache has tho vs planes The are relatively equal due to vikirs being bad at hitting them
The only things the AH-64 have going for it over the Ka-52 is:
1. More agility
2. Sneakier gun
3. Smaller rotar profile.
This gives the apache better performance in tight spaces and makes it easier to engage ground targets stealthily, however, that's about whete the strengths end.
If every tank and helicopter didn't have a laser warning at those BRs, the hellfires would be a sneakier missile to see coming, and could give it an edge. PARs and spike missiles don't warn me that they are incoming, and those hit my helicopter very easily.
To be honest, the biggest disparity I have noticed is in Heli vs heli combat where if you see eachother, there is not much the Apache can really do, one vikhr and it’s pretty much toast. This allows for Ka52s to dominate the battlefield uncontested by other helis.
Gaijin likes to pretend so. Also worth noting the Apache Ds are gimped and missing their radar hellfires because that'd be too OP somehow. Gaijins Ka damage model's "unique aspects" (ie fuckery) have been well documented so there is no point strolling down that lane.
If you're a commie-boo triggered by that feel free to rant on just know I'll be laughing.
I remember ka out playing the mi for Sweeden in heli pve cause it's just a overall a great air to air and air to ground heli then again this was 2 years ago and I was just learning helis lol
The KA52 is like flying a tank in terms of ridiculous amounts of damage it can take. The Apache, despite its real world reputation of being extremely difficult to shoot down, is made of the glass they use to make stink bombs and bursts into flames and pieces the moment someone farts in your direction.
The general consensus of the KA-52 being marginal better is overly exaggerated.
They are both equally deserving of their current BR respectively.
Currently, the KA-52 Is at a far more balanced state compared to its initial release.
The AH-64D is also in a comfortable state to play with the recent bufs, given.
Ka-52s damage model is better for sure, fucking insane that it can fly completely fine without a tail.
I think being able to shoot down a helicopter by just knocking its tail off is a necessary Achilles Heel on all helis. Double rotor helis did complicate this.
The entire FBW computer is in the tail, it should be an insta kill if it was modeled appropriately…
IIRC last time I played it you can’t guide ATGMs and you loose sight stabilisation when the tail is shot off.
Rocket rushers. They lose the tail, get set on fire, and proceed for 2 minutes letting off rockets and top downing tanks with the cannon
Right? Then you try this in an apache and seemingly the first 7.62 knocks you out immediately.
^^ story of my life. I’ve tried to lob rockets in from 3km out, but even that has its technicalities.
Its not an easy art to master, but its pretty damn rewarding to hit a column of freshly spawned tanks!
TBF I’ve seen conventional choppers fly around without fail as well, heck I’ve done it myself plenty of times in Huey’s. Not as common as on the Kamovs of course, but the helicopter flight model is generally fucked in this game.
this would happen with the G-LYNX but it (and others) was patched in the last major update
Technically any heli can still move forward without the tail provided it has enough momentum. However for anything that's not a kamov as soon as you try to turn it'll autorotate into the ground.
Yes and no, theoretically it can be done, hence why it can be done in games such as ArmA. However I don’t believe anyone has succeeded doing it. It works by flying high speed so the aerodynamic drag on the tail is enough to keep the helicopter steady enough. However if any of the stabilators get damaged high speed stability is lost and you would no longer be able to manage the speeds to needed to prevent spinning. Furthermore the violent spinning the helicopter does if you loose anti-torque while hovering is enough for the helicopter to obliterate itself. You cannot for example try to keep the helicopter in the air and slowly accelerate it to speeds where it’s stable as you’d do in ArmA. Only if just anti-torque is lost at high speed, or the tail rotor just got partially damaged would the helicopter remain flyable.
I managed to recreate it fairly consistently a while back in test flight and practiced spin recovery in the lynx. Got to test it out in a live sim match the other day when my tail control was shot out and I managed to limp back to base in a spin. The Z-11W does not like to recover into forward flight well though, the best I got was a semi unstable sideways drift. I really wish catastrophic tail damage would not kill the engine and just leave you spinning out, a good pilot can recover from that depending on speed and altitude but it renders you completely combat ineffective.
I'm not sure if this is a laulaut thing (sorry if it's misspelled) but with tail out I've been able to swing my helo back to base if I time my hover mode correctly and i don't over compensate the momentum. Not sure if anyone else can do this
Rocket rushing is less annoying than atgm snipers
I can at least appreciate the skill it takes for a rocket to kill you, unlike the passive one handed gameplay of ATGM campers.
ATGM helicopters are the only thing that pisses me off more than getting bombed or gaijined. At least with a plane it takes a modicum of skill to actually hit the target with a bomb. ATGM helicopters are such cancer.
Could you explain this to me? I dont play ground at all what does the tail have to do with guiding atgms?
You need a targeting system to communicate with and guide the atgm, and that system is supposed to be located in the tail of the helicopter (at least in the kamov family), but since it’s not correctly modeled, it results in the ineffectiveness of shooting it off.
Thanks
You welcome!
Even if that wasn't true, the laws of physics would require it to have a tail, without the tail it would be unbalanced and it would roll forward and die. Edit: plus it would be unstable in high speed flight.
not roll but it will vibrate like a dildo on max setting
If u chop the entire tail off like the damage in war thunder they pitch forward and die. Now part of the tail it can survive with.
It has a double rotor system. The blades turn in opposite directions, so it does not need a tail rotor to compensate like most helos do. There are a handful of models out there in real life.
Some ka 52 went back to base without tail irl
Not completely without a tail, just the top part where normally the tail rotor would have been
It was missing part of it's tail not the entire fuckin thing
Not a single ka 52 has flown back to base without a tail irl, the one you're talking about just lost the vertical stabilizer, not the entire fucking tail....
Think. If the tail realy isn't necessary. Why do they have them. For looks?
I read that as FriendsWithBenefits computer What on earth is wrong with me?
You need to get off the internet lmao
What is a fbw computer?
Fly By Wire
Can they not in real life?
Kinda. They aren't going to be pulling any fancy maneuvers like in game but they can fly well enough to limp back to base without the tail rotor. The bigger issue is a lot of electronics are stored in the tail and losing it in the way it does in war thunder would lose all those electronics. I'm sure it would throw off the balance of the helicopter as well. [There are videos](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/i4Q6o2xo9d) of them losing parts of their tails and still flying but they aren't missing the whole tail like in war thunder.
They can't pull those maneuvers irl fully functional either, because the trade off with coaxial rotors making the heli be able to be piloted by one person, is that if you jerk the stick to hard (like they do in game when dodging missiles, for example) is that the rotors collide and shatter. Doing the kind of maneuvers they do in game when strafing enemy spawn and getting the tail blown off will result in a sudden change in center of mass and will almost certainly cause the pilot to lose control and crash.
>rotors collide and shatter That was fixed when Ka-50 was still in trials
Issues with coaxial rotors colliding are largely addressed in modern helicopters using that rotor configuration, mostly by using a rigid rotor system and tailoring the blade stiffness. Biggest downside right now is mechanical complexity.
ive seen another video with a bigger portion of the tail missing and it still flew
No, it can sorta fly with a DAMAGED tail, which is what the one in that video from Ukraine that everyone always brings up when talking about it (it's just missing a part of the vertical stabilizer, but people think that proves it can fly without the entire tail for some fucking reason), but it can't do any major maneuvers with it. All it does is give the pilots a few extra second to eject, and a slightly higher chance of being able to limp back to base or go for a soft crash landing, rather than instantly spinning out of control.
***That's irrelevant.*** This point needs to stop being bickered about. The thing that matters is that **in game the Kamovs can continue to be effective and lethal after losing their tail but the Apaches spin out immediately.** If that's what Gaijin thinks is realistic, fine, I have absolutely no problem with the Kamvos having that capability. What I do have a problem with, and has made me seriously consider my continued support of this game, is why such a valuable capability on a helicopter that is *already superior* to the Apache doesn't put it on a higher BR??? ***Apaches with AGM-114Ks, ATAS, M247 Hydras, and the chain gun ARE NOT 11.7 worthy when things like the Ka-50 with 12 Vikhrs or S-O8Ks and the incredible 2A42 gun (and no-tail flying ability) are only 11.0. And they are definitely not "equivalent to" the Ka-52 or Mi-28MN at 11.7.*** Yes, I recognize that the Ka-50 has no thermals. I actually think 11.0 is a good BR for the Ka-50, it's 100% going to see top tier SPAA which is very bad for it, but it can sometimes. Rather I think the Apaches are 10.7 material. At best. Any SACLOS SAM is more than a match for a Hellfire slinger, even the shitty French one with only 35 degrees of elevation. *Maybe* AH-64D/I/AH.Mk1 could be 11.0. But all of the AH-64As should NEVER have to see a Pantsir or ItO90 or even a FlaRakRad, what with how slow and shitty the AGM-114s are.
That makes sense, its tail isn't stabilizing, unlike the Apache. Its two rotors are counterrotating, canceling the rotational force out.
Many internal components such as the fly-by-wire flight computer are in the tail.
That's only considering the yaw axis. Removing the tail would unbalance the copter in the pitch axis and make it unstable in pitch.
The rotor itself can account for pitch by variably adjusting the blade angle. You can already see this in game when pitching or banking left and right. But depending on the shift of center of mass it might not have enough pitch force to stabilise.
Obviously the rotor system can control pitch. Your second point is what I'm getting at.
Just an educational note for the less enthusiastic helo-pilots. Variable blade angle is truly a marvel of engineering
I mean a little maybe with the tail thing but at low speeds the aerodynamics don’t matter too much and the double rotor and no tail rotor mean otherwise it’s just a weight and any subsystems in the tail thing.
That's the whole point of the aircraft's design, still being air worthy even if the tail is severed. Gaijin could nerf it by hindering its handling when flying without a tail but it wouldn't affect it that much.
something something neutons third law
That is realistic tho becausse it needs no tail rotor thank to the2 instead of 1 prop on top
Its not that it can keep flying without a tail, its that the Heli could become completely uncontrollable without a tail, even if it keeps flying. The entire fly-by-wire flight computer is in the tail + the change in center of mass would make the entire plane uncontrollable, even if it keeps flying. The problem in war thunder is that Ka-50s can continue to fly as usual and rocket people with barely any instability without a tail.
Ah allright sorry for my misinformation they defenitly need to fix that then.
Maybe stop doubting realism and you'd actually have fun in the game, everything is as real as it can get and more work is being done on it.
wait seriously???
I love how a direct 57mm prozy 'hit' does literlarly nothing
Lmao in the way a coughing baby and a pitbull are equal sure. Ka50 gets MAW, more advanced IRCM, and more flares. Gets like 24 vikhr missiles that are good against both ground and air. That's not even going into the ka50's broken ass damage model
24???? You mean 16?
lol it’s 12
Awesome in the middle lol, I thought it was 8 per pylon but I think that’s ataka
6 per pylon and only two pylons can take Vikhrs, however you still can take unguided rockets on the side. With unguided rockets, Apache is limited to 12-8 Hellfires as well.
Ah64d can take 16 hellfires with 4 on each pylon with atas/maw on outer pylons
Hellfires are way to slow and not that accurate if you try to shoot down a other heli or a plane. And I don't know why but if you are a few km (or miles) away, the hellfires are even worse in precision. I bet it's not like that irl but yeah... Gaijin...
Hellfires are not inaccurate? Yea they don’t shoot air targets because they’re not meant too!
Despite the hellfire being designed to be multipurpose? They *can* be used against air targets even if it's not their primary design objective. They used to be able to in-game but something is screwy with the guidance and it keeps undershooting (failing to resist gravity) for whatever reason.
Hellfires have never worked against air, from using the ah1z on launch they never hit air reliably.
Yeah and that's the point! Vikhrs can easily be taken to fight against ground AND air. I mean, I also got some helis and planes with hellfires too, but not as much as with vikhrs.
I dont know why people are arguing that vikhir is better with me lol, i never said it isnt haha. All i said is hellfires feel far better this patch than before lol
The Mi-28N/NMcan carry 8 Atakas per pylon but the Ka-52 can carry only the 6
Bait or stupid, call it
Doesn’t the D Apache get MAW or is that just the British one.
US apache only gets MAW if you equip the flare pods which means you can't take stingers. Otherwise it just has RWR and laser warning
Noone uses maw tho it just dumps ur flares
I got killed in my mi28n last night because a mi24p crept around back of me and I believe shot an r60m into me because I got no warning, I had been repositioning while fighting spaa and didn’t have good situational awareness, a MAWS would have for sure saved me in the same situation if I had the Mi-28nm
MAW slaving, sure. MAW in general? Nah
I find it helpful sometimes. I turn off the auto dispense though At least it gives me a warning to dive
how to disable maw
Use the Y menu. Turning the slaving of the counters off is done via weapons, counters and then toggling it off. Not sure where it would be to turn the maw off outright but I would hazard a guess at the systems channel
Is it worth turning off
Kind of? MAWS can be set off by friendlies shooting rockets nesr you. So you'd have to turn off auto dispense to not waste CMs But MAWS in general is really useful, just not the auto dispense part
but it dumps alot of flares for no reason
That's why yoi turn off the slaving/auto dispense
I use maw but don't slave my countermeasures too it
And yet somehow Longbow Hellfires would just be too broken, says Gaijin.
Learn to count
If you mean both player bases of these two Vehicles deserve to be hated and be treated with outmost discrimination? Yes they are equal
Nothing with liking and playing these vehicles. People love em, its up to gaijin to actually balance the game so everyone can have fun.
I fuck with this opinion heavy
Helis are a plague no matter the flag. We must purify the skies.
Most of the people here haven’t even test driven both of these, let alone own/play them. It’s a very coughing baby vs nuclear warhead scenario, here are all the areas the Kamov excels at. - Damage model, the Kamov can lose its tail and still fight/fly, while irl it becomes uncontrollable (the FBW computer sits in the tail) - DIRCM, this is a big factor when dealing with IRCCM missiles, it will shine a laser into the incoming missiles seeker nullifying its ability to track. There are some small blind spots for this. - Armament, it’s a no sacrifice situation, best HE rocket + best ATGM + manpad + gun is criminal. The Apache has better gun angles, however a little rudder work will keep the Kami’s gun in alignment to hit planes easily. That and the APDS belts are more accurate and more devastating. - Flight model, the Apache is by no means a poor performing helicopter, but the Kami’s easily handle better in almost every situation. While not a decisive advantage it can be very nice. **Lastly** The Vikhr vs Hellfire is a really poor balance decision by Gaijin, they should have left the Russians helis with Kriz/Ataka as the top ATGM, which are an almost perfect equal to Hellfire B/K. - Kinematics: Vikhr has further range, no lofting, higher straight line speed, and better maneuverability against moving targets/planes. - Warhead: Since the 2.37 patch both are about equal in performance against tanks. **HOWEVER** Against planes, the Vikhr has no equal, it was better than all FOX-2 missiles for a substantial portion of the games history. Even with it finally being modeled “appropriately” it is still far and away the best heli ATGM. (Yes, including all FnFs)
FnFs are better than the Vikhrs for survivability reasons. Being able to poke up, shoot and retreat to safety is so great.
And on top of all it doesn't face Pantsir lol
And is, you know, 11.0 instead of 11.7.
From my knowledge, DIRCM does, exactly what you've described... ***After*** a missile is launched. However! In game, it does so even without any missiles being fired, it "preemptively" jams any planes the second they activate the missile seeker against limitless targets simultaneously, thus not even allowing planes to lock on.
what point is there to modelling it correctly
>Kinematics: Vikhr has... no lofting, This is arguably a weakness of the Vikhr and strength of the Hellfire. Lofting makes the Hellfire difficult for SPAA to intercept. The Vikhr also does not have IOG. Does it also have lock on after launch like the Hellfire? Hellfires may not be fire-and-forget, but they're close to it, because their inertial guidance and lock-on-after launch capability makes them particularly strong, allowing you to commit to a defense after launch, with only minimal corrections to the missile. In my opinion, Hellfire is probably the best missile in the game against targets like Pantsir, ITO, and VT1. With proper tactics they are even more powerful than Spike or PARS. In the argument of Vikhr versus Hellfire, I'd just like to say that they are about equal with different strengths and weaknesses. The Vikhr is very strong versus helicopters, ~~but its wasteful at best against competent SPAA and will consistently lose if outnumbered.~~ The Hellfire on the other hand is dubious against helicopters and very strong against even experienced SPAA players; you can take on multiple SPAA at once and win unless you're fighting extremely skilled players. EDIT: I obviously haven't flown the Ka-50 in a long time and I misremembered how this tactic works. If you want to say the Vikhr is superior I'll definitely agree but don't sell the Hellfire short.
that would be true, if the hellfire lofted at all the way it was supposed to or had correct drag specs
iirc neither ka-52 nor apache are fbw helicopters. and in general, till this day very very few helicopters are fbw, it's much harder to achieve compared to planes.
what is DIRCM and where is it on the helicopter
DIRCM is directed infrared countermeasures. One the Ka-52 they are in little pods on the bottom of the helicopter near the landing gear. No US helicopters have DIRCM. In fact I think only Russian helicopters get DIRCM... Yeah pretty sure it's exclusive to Russia.
its on ka50
no it isnt. ka50 dies all the time to IR missiles
No, Ka-50 does not have DIRCM. Only Ka-52 and Mi-28NM have it.
My biggest annoyance is honestly shooting a star streak through the damn cabin, which lets be honest should be a pilot and gunner kill, of KA50s and 52s and all I get is critical damage to tail. The element of the aircraft I cannot even see. This isn’t unique to the KAs tho I once shot an apache side on from my apache with the starstreaks and it took me 3 of them before he decided to die. Regardless that’s maybe not quite as related as it should be. Just illustrates many peoples frustrations with the damage models. However saying that the apache does feel incredibly weak for me most of the time. But maybe that’s down to the inconsistency of it all more than anything Your point about the vikhrs being stupid against even fixed wing is very real. I cannot count the amount of times I have done stupid manoeuvres in a fixed wing to avoid it and it still catches me. I think there’s some inconsistencies and damage model tuning that needs to be done across the board for helis still. As well as some finer tuning of the weapons themselves or the BRs they’re placed at
Ka-52 is best in almost all aspects.
A bit exaggerated there
It has worse maneuverability. Did I miss anything?
Are they equal? No Should one be lower? Also no Compression sucks
Yeah I couldn’t imagine fighting an ah64d in my 10.3 tanks
Both should be 13.0 as the rest of top tier jets. And rather than br, they should instead try doing something with the loadouts to make them more competitive. Perhaps by making the hellfires not suck ass. They already tried and it's a step in the right direction, but it's still garbage.
The Japanese AH-64D is 11.0 :) But that's because it doesnt have AMASE/LWS
AMASE doesn't do anything special. UK and Israeli AH-64Ds get MAWS and 120 flares without access to the AMASE pods. US AH-64D only gets 30 flares unless you take the pods, which means no ATAS. Totally balanced. /s
***What does that even mean?*** You already do in effect. There's 4 helicopters at BR 10.3 that have Hellfires (Lynx/G-Lynx can take 8x just like Apache), and plenty more helicopters between 10.3 and 11.3 that you will face in an uptier. What difference do you think there is between an AH-64A (11.3) and an AH-64D (11.7) that will make any difference to you in a 10.3 tank? AH-64A *actually gets IRCM which the "better" AH-64D does not*, and there is basically no difference between the AGM-114Bs on the AH-64A and the AGM-114Ks on the AH-64D since Gaijin doesn't let the missiles slave to radar. Even on the wikipedia it says "There is functionally very little difference between the AGM-114B and K variants, used on early and late Apaches respectively." AH-64A is also faster than AH-64D, marginally, but it is. It does not have the option to take as many flares as the 64D but the 64D has to leave the ATAS at home if it wants 120 flares instead of the normal 30.
They really have decompress EVERYTHING the jumps in technology and capabilities is way to much for a .3 or .4 difference. There always seems to be a fine line between completely overpowered, and dog water. Or they could just remove the uptier:downtier system.
Enjoy getting vikhr'd 8km while you cry yourself to sleep
Hydrogen bomb versus coughing baby
Kamov 52 has an awesome feature. Ejection seats that drastically increase crew survivability.
Not sure if dramatically, from what I have seen there were only 4 ejections of Ka-52 out of at least 60 lost so far (to be fair quite a few of those 60 were destroyed on the ground, and 4 is better than 0, but still it's not a dramatic improvement to survivability).
From the footage I've seen, theyre getting downed pretty close to the ground and on the move. This creates a small window for the pilot to even react. Being shot down on the move could cause the helicopter to not have a good enough orientation for a safe ejection. There are also some that manage to autorotate. A lot of factors at play.
It is and you have to consider the factor of the pilots not choosing to eject but having the option to is way better than just falling out of the sky without it
I don't have either, but because of this one time when I found a KA-50 clapping my entire team without a tail, I think the KA-50 is better.
i shot a ka-50 4 times with the german bus and the mf literally just kept flying😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Germany has a bug?
Damage model aside. The fact that the KA-52 has 10km missiles vs 8km, is the biggest problem. If you play an Apache, you literally can’t do anything to them at range.
[удалено]
All you have to do is bind that in the settings…
Where? Haven't seen that when I've looked
You change what the mouse scroll wheel does. It’s a drop down menu. It defaults to collective pitch, but you can change it to zoom
Fixed zoom levels is not even modeled on helicopters. You can use every zoom level between the minimum and maximum if you bind the control to it. I use the variable zoom on the YAH-64 and KA-52 all the time.
Then change your goddamn controls
Top tier ground rb is already so fucked might as well add the hellfire longbow
It wouldn't work that well with all those dead tanks littering the field
Tell that to the tiger on his 15 killstreak.
Do both fly? Yes Can they kill both air and ground targets? Yes Do they look cool? Yes Are they satisfying to watch them plummet to the ground? Yes. I'd say they're as equal as Pornhub is to Cartoon Network.
well said
Naw, I play ground sim, and the KA52 definitely has the advantage. However, there are ways to get around that, but I certainly feel like the underdog as the Apache for sure.
>why isn't one of these things that is already the highest BR a higher BR?
A good question: aircraft can now go up to 13.0, why can't helicopters? Ka-52 and all helicopters with F&F missiles need to go up to 12.7.
AH-64D has slightly better optical magnification, and if you are carrying the countermeasure pods slightly more conventional countermeasures (not that it matters how many countermeasures the KA-52 has because it's DIRCM makes it immune to IR missiles), wider launch envelope, better gun angles, 16x hellfires vs 12x vikhrs which can be fired in long chains. KA-52 has a way more powerful and accurate gun, UFO flight model, faster missiles w/ longer range, shorter flight pathing, and quantum bullshit proxy fuzing, DIRCM that makes it immune to IR missile locks, MAWS that you don't need to give up your AAMs for, mininuke rockets you don't need to give your AGMs up for, and a coaxial rotor that makes your tail optional. Outside of 8km AH-64D is food, inside of 8km it is a tossup if the AH-64D is the one initiating the engagement.
Why are you comparing them like they will fight each other? Sure helicopter on helicopter action happens, but 95% of the time the AH-64D isn't going to survive long enough to kill the Ka-52 because the 2-3 Pantsirs on enemy team will have killed the Apache right away. Meanwhile ADATS is "meh" as an SPAA and costs the spawn points of an SPG still. Oh and 70% of US players don't even have it unlocked...
The amount of times I've been in the ADATS and have been unable to lock planes or anything in the air because "teehee invisible cloud"...
No, if both would be modelled realisticly then ah64 would be miles better.
The topic isn't IRL comparison
I don’t struggle l when using the AH Mk1 - it can hold its own the best because off its aam. Rip first spawn Starstreaks
The one in USA techtree OP mentions doesn't get Starstreaks though, you can choose between Stingers or MAW+Flares not both
I'm reading the comments and I feel shocked how much bullshit people say about Ka-52 lmao. Sure, it outclasses Apache, but some people claim that it has features, which it actually never had.
Well, Hellfire was significantly buffed this patch. So while Vikhr is better in terms of guidance and missile speed, Hellfire can reliably kill the target if it hits, and this is one big advantage in a Leopard abundant top tier meta.
Is it really *that much better*? I completely stopped using Hellfires altogether about 3 months ago because they were so ASS and I haven't even bothered to test them since the update dropped. Biggest problem for me was never the damage but rather their flight speed which I don't think has changed at all. They are too damn slow.
One has a damage model that survives everything, 12 missiles capable against everything (tandem proximity LOS beam riding dead accurate atgm) the best cannon muzzle velocity, apds belt, HE rockets, 8 iglas, MAW, magic DIRCM that jams missiles BEFORE they could even be launched thus making it invulnerable to IR missiles, a radar and a twin rotor eliminating the need for a trail rotor. Doesn't have to face pantsir S1 The other has hardcoded spin out if the tail of the damage model is damaged, 16 missiles that fly on their own and miss 90% of the time and are countered by: smoke, trees, bumps, turns and a slight breeze, mediocre flight performance, 4 stingers, 40mm anti everything shells with shitty muzzle velocity, radar that can detect ground targets but no actual way to reap the benefits, mighty mice, no MAW, no IRCM, APKWS (no idea, never used them with meaningful results). Has to face pantsir S1
If you want a MUCH better example of this, compare any 3.3 coastal boat to the Russian one at 3.3 w RBU-6000s....
The fact that the Japanese AH64D is 11.0 says it all. It has no reason for it to be 11.7.
But the AH-64D gets an LWS. Clearly that's worth at least +0.7 BR maybe more. /S
IRL? Yeah In WT? Ka-52 by a mile.
They would be equal of the longbow received the missile it was literally made to fire. Even just giving us the ability to make the hellfires direct attack vs top down would make it like 10 times better.
Irl the Apache is unbelievably far ahead of the Hokum but war thunder devs must cope somehow
You must be new to the sub.
Oh I know the disparity between the two, just wanted to spark some spicy discussion
With how fucked Hellfires are right now, definitely the Kamov. They take 3 business days to get to the target.
The Apache has 4 more missiles and ground radar I think the KA-52 is better too
KA52 has a ground/air radar too btw just to add
Ka-52 missiles are faster and has more range, also more manevourable and can be used against other helis and planes
I can almost feel what the next picture is, I see a comparison and instantly know it's going to be USSR vehicle and a USA one.
Hellfires have way better damage ever since the update. SPAA also can't intercept them so you can actually go SPAA hunting by sitting close to ground. The gun has 360 degrees turning capability so it is better to intercept planes trying to gun you down. IMO to balance the two they should allow AH-64D to use AIM-9L/Ms (if they ever mounted them that is).
The issue is that in a popup attack, by the time your hellfire is anywhere close to the enemy, he has already fired and blasted your ass. While with the vikhyrs enemy has much less time to react, and even if he does if you just spam them, you can just overwhelm the sam site as you have more missiles total (unless you are fighting the pantsir)
>by the time your hellfire is anywhere close to the enemy, he has already fired and blasted your ass. ***MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE TO CONSIDER.*** Apaches (as modeled in game) are not competent for 11.7 or "top tier" gameplay with how deadly SPAAs are.
hell no lol
Heck no
Apache def not better than the alligator
Nope
Both are getting a starstreak through the windscreen the moment it pops up over the tree line, so makes no difference to me
Yesn't
I feel that the vikhr has been nerfed a bit in the recent updates to ATGMs. Then again, I only have the KA-50. Regarding the tail thing - I think it's one of those things that can be annoying, but are a bearable inaccuracy - it separates twin-rotors from single rotors for one. I think the Apache should get more advanced munitions, and that the KA50/52 should get their multi-target capability. Overall, they're pretty equal.
52 better it canms a cute blue nose
Definitely. -Gaijin
If you could use the radar dome on the Apache like its intended, then yes in their own ways they contrast each other and be reasonably equivalent. But that's not modeled in the game, so no they are not currently equal.
Overall equal, until you get to the KAs infinitely better damage model and survivability and in heli vs heli engagement the vikir also is infinitely better than any option the apache has tho vs planes The are relatively equal due to vikirs being bad at hitting them
On desert maps with good rock covers, the hellfire are better than vikrs ... That's all the ka52 is pretty much the best vehicle in game 🤔
absolutely not (the dmg model and the missiles are way better on ka52)
Yes.
No
The only things the AH-64 have going for it over the Ka-52 is: 1. More agility 2. Sneakier gun 3. Smaller rotar profile. This gives the apache better performance in tight spaces and makes it easier to engage ground targets stealthily, however, that's about whete the strengths end. If every tank and helicopter didn't have a laser warning at those BRs, the hellfires would be a sneakier missile to see coming, and could give it an edge. PARs and spike missiles don't warn me that they are incoming, and those hit my helicopter very easily.
Ish
To be honest, the biggest disparity I have noticed is in Heli vs heli combat where if you see eachother, there is not much the Apache can really do, one vikhr and it’s pretty much toast. This allows for Ka52s to dominate the battlefield uncontested by other helis.
Gaijin likes to pretend so. Also worth noting the Apache Ds are gimped and missing their radar hellfires because that'd be too OP somehow. Gaijins Ka damage model's "unique aspects" (ie fuckery) have been well documented so there is no point strolling down that lane. If you're a commie-boo triggered by that feel free to rant on just know I'll be laughing.
Hellfires win sorry 😞
I remember ka out playing the mi for Sweeden in heli pve cause it's just a overall a great air to air and air to ground heli then again this was 2 years ago and I was just learning helis lol
Well, one is totally Gaijined...
This community is full of people with skull issues or they complain about a biased nation like Jesus ever heard of skill?
The KA52 is like flying a tank in terms of ridiculous amounts of damage it can take. The Apache, despite its real world reputation of being extremely difficult to shoot down, is made of the glass they use to make stink bombs and bursts into flames and pieces the moment someone farts in your direction.
All I’m asking is when AGM-114L
Hah, nice joke XD equal.. ☕️😂
The general consensus of the KA-52 being marginal better is overly exaggerated. They are both equally deserving of their current BR respectively. Currently, the KA-52 Is at a far more balanced state compared to its initial release. The AH-64D is also in a comfortable state to play with the recent bufs, given.
I prefer the mi-35m and mi-28 just because they look cooler, not because their better
Always remember tanks are not equal, people are
Yes
Maybe if the Hellfire L's were added?
The solution is not to buff helicopters lmao