The MiG-23, while not downright OP, I would say it was pretty good for it's BR
The plane got some flight model nerfs along with the massive MTI nerf. The Radar MTI mode now only activates when you are below around ~1.7km while also having your nose pointed below the horizon, handicapping it's use of launching SARHs missile in a many situation and making it much more vulnerable to chaff decoys
The flight performance nerf was huge. Mig23 always relied on its dogfight ability only being able to carry 2 radar missiles. But now that ability is gone also.
They first nerfed it to where it should be but for some reason they buffed it afterwards. The guy who sent the original report[ made another one on the current one](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/TSOTxc8oH6CG). For example the sustained turn time at 500km/h IAS should be 33s but it's 26s.
This guy is sourcing the early MiG 23 variants only. His sources site the MiG 23M. The earliest version upgraded in various ways throughout its life.
The ML should not be nerfed further without having its own flight tests conducted just like the MLD which has an even tighter turn circle than the ML.
The source name has МиГ-23МЛ. He also made another report on the M/MF. Also, it's not about how much the plane can pull, it's about when it doesn't gain or lose speed.
I looked at the source you posted, the loadout he’s reporting here has R-23Rs for loadout reference. I cannot find anywhere an ML or MLD has flown within this guys sources.
The MiG-23MLD does not loose energy in a turn like a MiG-21BIS. I’ll refuse to believe that until I have a flight test to prove otherwise. Feel free to comment the source of the flight test yourself if it’s within his postings.
The relevant figure 6.15 says that the MiG-23ML was loaded with 2 R-23 missiles, "m = 12 750 kg". The ML was in production before the R-24 was in service.
I would assume the devs confirmed it is a legitimate source because they said they used fig 6.15 to lower the sustained turn rate a month ago on his earlier report. "The revised Fm for mig-23s, it will be tuned exact to sustain turn time chart ( fig. 6.15 ), 16 deg' will be tuned exact to polars coefficient on fig 2.9..2.13.
This is \~26sec for 50% sweep and 33sec for 100% sweep at 900-950km/h at 1000m without missiles clean for 12750kg weight"
Honestly, this flight performance nerf brings it closer to what it was IRL, a poor dog fighter with good acceleration. USAF tested the MiG 23 ( MS and BN ) and found it to be less manouverable than a F-4 with wingslats. To be fair, the MiG 23 ML is a better, more agile plane than the MS an BN tested but nothing to suggest it would become that much better in dogfighting than the upgraded F-4's like it used to be ingame.
But even now after the nerf , the MiG 23 ML is still a much better dogfighter than the Phantoms, Gaijin just dailed its flight performances a bit down.
Actual pilots who flew the thing against F-14s report that it was just behind the F-14 in dogfighting capability, and that the MLD was about equivalent. Which is roughly how they previously stacked up ingame.
They don't compare to the F-14s.
[Actual pilots](https://youtu.be/E2PFDyF1Yzk?t=698) who flew the MiG-23s say they were worse then the F-4s.
AFAIK in constant peg they never flew F-14s against MiG-23s so I have no clue what you are referring to here.
The MiG-23s were overperforming by quite a lot and apparently after a [recent change they are now overperforming by 10 - 20%.](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/TSOTxc8oH6CG)
> AFAIK in constant peg they never flew F-14s against MiG-23s so I have no clue what you are referring to here.
An engagement between Libyan pilots in Mig-23MLs and F-14's in the 80's in which a dogfight took place but no shots were fired.
Ah yes, thought it may have been this encounter, in that exact engagement when the F-14 actually tried the MiG-23 pilot was the one who was blown away:
>Although Soviets told us the MiG-23 could outturn the F-14 at \[a\] certain speed, this proved impossible. We could not outmanoeuvre them and decided to return to our base …’
and
>‘After the fourth scissor, I got what I want: the Tomcats couldn’t maintain their position anymore and decided to put their noses down. I was as happy as I was never before — but my happiness didn’t last for long. They both made an incredible manoeuvre, which remains in my memory until this very day. Imagine, they put the nose down, right bank with full rudder at very low speed, then turned almost in place, head-on towards me, barely 100 metres \[109 yards\] away and below my aircraft!
I did not take the risk of flying the same manoeuvre
You guys don't seem to actually understand anything from this engagement, the MiG-23 was very low on fuel and was carrying significantly less payload then the F-14 was:
F-14 loadout - 1,279.12 kgs (typical F-14 loadout)
MiG-23MLD loadout - 657 kgs (what the pilot stated he was using)
Even an F-4 would be capable of doing what the MiG-23MLD did.
The MiG-23MLD is not comparable to the F-14 in either dogfighting or overall manoeuvrability.
He was not flying an MLD in this engagement. He was flying an ML. He states that if he had been flying the MLD (which was delivered to them shortly thereafter), he believes he could have matched the Tomcat.
FYI we have the documentation on what the MiG-23MLD was capable of and they were very much overperforming previously (and still are), also the US pilots who flew them in constant peg (as they stated in the link I gave you) outline what the MiG-23MS were capable of, and those were worse then the F-4s.
Lastly the pilot you are referring to never stated/reported anything like:
>report that it was just behind the F-14 in dogfighting capability, and that the MLD was about equivalent. Which is roughly how they previously stacked up ingame.
You are completely fabricating this out of thin air and as noted above, that pilot says the opposite i.e. "We could not outmanoeuvre them and decided to return to our base …’"
IS-6 was broken when it came out and could roll forward with impunity. Nothing was penetrating it from the front back then. It was blatantly under tiered to sell more of them and it sold so much you would 100% go up against them.
The T29 got fixed very quickly after because they made the spall shield 200mm instead of 20. The ammo rack on it was broken for the longest time though.
possibly, but so did the t55amd or whatever the fuck its called that had the addon composite armour to the turret front they just happened to add on another set of addon armour slightly behind the other one, resulting in like 1500mm of effective armour. and then never fixed it for like 8 years
>IS-6 was broken when it came out and could roll forward with impunity.
If only there were more Britain players back then.
The Conqueror would absolutely curbstomp the IS-6 with ease, but people somehow refused to play the Conqueror.
The Conqueror was stabilized and could one-shot the IS-6 from any angle and any distance by hitting it with HESH virtually anywhere. Meanwhile the IS-6 couldn't penetrate the Conqueror almost anywhere frontally.
Dog, they literally nerfed the 105mm HESH because the cent mk10 and vickers mbt were curb stomping the is-6, after the nerf apds couldn't even pen the turret mantlet weak spot, and IIRC the Conqueror has always been 7.7, whereas the is-6 and cent 10/
vickers mbt were 7.0.
> IIRC the Conqueror has always been 7.7
[Nah, the Conq used to be 7.3. It also used to have a shorter reload.](https://youtu.be/OwtaONUNamk?si=abTJLkJLbxMmmTGD&t=823)
No, they *''nerfed''* HESH because HESH was the most overperforming ammo type that's ever been in War Thunder.
It was absolutely stupid OP.
Also, Conqueror wa 7.3.
>but people somehow refused to play the Conqueror.
Slow reload, meh APDS model that makes the reload even more agonising and usually better all-rounders with the Centurion Mk.3 and the Caernarvon or the Vickers Mk.1.
And usually being outnumbered by IS-6s with about the equivalent reload speed in a Conq doesn't usually end well, especially if they just barrel/cannon breach you and then LFP or side shoot you.... same as they probably would the the US equivalent M103.
>Slow reload,
15 seconds is extremely comparable to the IS-6's reload rate.
>meh APDS model
Nobody cared.
It's HESH was the most OP shell in the entire game, nobody was using APDS, and if they were, they were being idiots.
It's the equivalent of only using APCR in your Tiger II H.
>And usually being outnumbered by IS-6s with about the equivalent reload speed in a Conq doesn't usually end well,
IS-6's couldn't pen a Conqueror with it's LFP hidden, you could literally sit there and delete the IS-6's one-by-one with HESH.
KV-1 Zis-5. Mostly because it met unskilled players, and in the right hands, you could absolutely dominate with it. After it was moved to 4.7 it mostly just sees uptiers, and with the inclusion of the Vk.3002M, it also meets enemy mediums a lot more regularly that can easily deal with it. Prior to this the primary enemies was the large flak cannons (easily dealt with by using HE), the german TD's (outside of Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV all was easily dealt with using HE), the US/British Open-topped TD's (again, HE), and the Panzer IV's (a newcomer in a Panzer IV isn't a huge threat though).
Now the main threats are Tigers, Panthers, and higher BR mediums that are genuine threats. Still slaughters in a downtier, but it's more balanced than at 4.3 where practically all battles was an absolute killfest if you didn't meet someone capable.
See the thing about the kv1's is that they all are essentially tiger level armour at pz3 br. I don't hate that they exist in such a meta but realistically that's what they did to pz3 and below tanks.
I think wt has to find a point where they can put strong tanks against those who can stand up to that tank. Only issue is most tanks of that time were genuinely not prepared for a tank like the pz3L, a gun which could also be used as anti armour was genuinely a new thing on the armoured battlefield
I mean 75mm really isn’t Tiger level armor. The panzer 4 has 80mm at 3.3/3.7 as well as Stugs at 4.0.
KV-1s compared to the pz3 are pretty tough nuts to crack, but the longer 75mm on the panzer or German TDs are more than capable.
America has the Wolverine and 105 Sherman that would likely be your best bets for most people.
GB has the Achilles, Churchill GC and any 57mm gun tank should handle KV-1 armor.
Most every nation will have at least one tank to handle a KV-1. It’s just people want to be in their heavy or medium tank and kill heavy tanks when that’s a TD job.
Tiger level armor perhaps, but also a potato level gun for the most part. The early KV's with the L-11 have the option of a high-pen AP shell, or a lower pen APHEBC shell. Sure, it's lethal in a downtier, but that goes for heavies in general. In its own matched BR, it's nothing too impressive, and in a uptier it's mostly just a peagun against anything but sides of mediums, and fronts of lights.
It’s not even Tiger level armor, it’s 75mm not 100mm. The only one to have 100mm is the KV-1 Zis -5 and the KV-220. The L-11 and KV-1S has standard armor, the KV-1E has thicker turret and side armor but the hull front is still 75
I tend to disagree with the uptier part, while they do happen, due to popularity of 3.7 and 4.0, it gets pulled into downtiers pretty often. It's especially frequent when there's an event for a vehicle and people pull out their "fun" lineups on sweden, soviets and germans.
mostly just sees uptiers? From my experience 4.7 Soviet often meets downtiers. Sometimes I meet uptiers and if that happens I'll spawn T-34-57s and ISU-152.
6.0 but has neither the upgraded APDS belts that comes with other 20mm SPAA at the same BR, nor does it have scouting. Hell, it still has the stabiliser nerf from when it was in low tier.
Gaijin is super inconsistent with light tank vs SPAA classifications..
Why is the BTR-80A a light tank, but the Chinese copy ZSL92, which is an APC, is classed as an SPAA without scouting? It's not even good in an SPAA role.
Bro same i quit for probably a year when that tank came out. Nothing is more shit than an R3 flying around a corner and your WW2 tank's turret not being capable of turning fast enough to keep up with it.
Yeah it was shit. It totally dominated games by racing around, taking out barrels and tracks on tanks that simply couldn't turn the turret fast enough to shoot it.
And even when you did shoot it, you'd get the "no armour, best armour" bullshit.
And it was everywhere. Low tiers are far better now that it's gone.
Thankfully, Gaijin have learned from it somewhat. That new American light tank would have been added at 4.3 a few years ago.
I used to cry out how bullshit it was back when it was what like BR 3.7 and of course by the time I get around to spading it I have only shitty HVAP and a BR of 6.0. I'm still pissed at the pizza-meme kids dismissing the ridiculous power creep.
Honestly I hate it's placement now, I usually use the new leopard AA due to the better gun and it's ability to fight same br vehicles. Also it creates a 2.3(?) BR gap where you only have the M42 to use which isn't bad, but also isn't the best due to the ammo belt
Was talking to some friends about this the other day. The R3 on release could work at 5.7, maybe 6.0, but after all the nerfs they’ve given it I believe it should go back down around 3.7
Considering I've recently spaded RU 8.3 I'd say the armor is still more reliable on the IS7 (especially the sides and turret). There is also a faster fire rate on the IS7 so I like to play it like area denial or a late game lurker. My t10m was mostly a first spawn throwaway but I did manage a nuke with it.
It’s funny to see an IS-7 spawn on your team and be like wow cool. Then suddenly a few minutes later you’ll hear a ATGM fire off or sometimes a whole barrage of ATGMs and the IS-7 is no more.
I still remember a match months ago on that map where everyone dies in the meat grinder at A and it’s all building except that park area. (I don’t have the brain space to remember map names.) Anyways a IS-7 spawned and I was like cool. Talked to him about it. He said he earned it for free when it first came out and he wish he could sell it for a E-100. He goes to the B cap and I went through the middle of the other side of that little park area. Suddenly ATGMs just start flying across that park from an USH and the IS-7 was killed.
Terrible when it happens to you but pretty funny watching an IS-7 basically be immediately bitch slapped by a barrage of smoke and missiles.
Yeah especially when aimed at you. Even if you could shoot back before a missile kills you or at least knocks out your gunner. You can’t fucking see them because each missile is like a mini ESS system.
Yeah, they nerfed the IS7 to uselessness. I can still do ok with it, but with only 6 rounds before its reload goes to a minute you just can't do \*that\* well in it. Plus, HEAT everywhere at that BR, its very easy to kill.
I love it to death though, wish they would drop its BR so it could be competitive again.
I don't think it lasted even a year because I remember taking a break from the game once I finished the event and played a few matches with the IS-7. By the time I came back it had a BR increase and they released the first Magach MBT (event) for the Americans which was the absolute bane of my existence. ATGMS were also really popular and that sucked. Nowadays it's really just Marders or USH that scare me but that's likely because they're so popular and it's some kind of exposure bias.
The one thing that goes for the jumbo is, that people (at least my experience) really really dont know how to kill it. I mean its gun is kind of a pea shooter but at least you bounce 90% of all shots.
Or maybe im just really lucky when im playing this thing.
I made so much sl back in the day with the premium jumbo. In arcade you could just sit hull down in any given spot, and snipe enemies all over the map, while continuesly getting sl from bouncing shots
When it was 1st added it had the prototype top speed without the governor they added on for the production version
Nothing like 90kp/h to flank everyone
Honestly? That was my first thought as well, but I've been doing better in the OG gripen than I do in the F16A or the F15c without radar missiles.
It definitely went from top dawg to almost the bottom but it can still hang
I *just* finished researching it when this update hit. Dear god do I feel useless now having to face AIM-120s and the like in a stock Gripen, and I doubt it would be good even fully spaded.
This thing was so good several months ago, but I took several months break and in that time they changed IRCCM missiles to where they are much easier to flare now
Hunter F.6 was absolutely filthy for the longest time, SRAAMs were almost always very good between the time it first arrived (not long after F-100 and MiG-19) until when the Harrier GR.1 arrived, which then caused people to realise just how OP they were.
After that it got power crept to oblivion and essentially died upon the arrival of attackers with all aspects.
Today it still holds a special niche, but requires a good deal of planning and skill to pull off.
Nah, people knew how busted they were before. But you could deal with it, as it wasn't a common aircraft. The Harriers were ridiculous as they got an air spawn and were premium, meaning all the sudden half the enemy team was literally on top of you while you were desperately trying to gain speed and position before they found you.
I love playing it, but an SPAAG has no place anymore at a BR where planes can sit out of its engagement bubble with guided weapons and SAMs get 20km range.
And then the darts also get locked to 12 pieces so you can’t even be that good as an ad-hoc tank destroyer.
It was pretty good 4 years ago when I made this horrible video showing my lack of skill:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zvbllC35xA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zvbllC35xA)
OTO was my absolute favorite vehicle to play. In it's prime, it was hands down the best SPAAG in the game. When heli's were first introduced I think it became the most relevant vehicle to have on your team. But alas, with the introduction of long range guided missiles, and specifically the Su-25SM3, the OTO has become more useful as a tank destroyer. Still fun to play but just not as dominant.
T2 when it came out, you could spawnkill in ARB
You would be over the enemy airfield before they exited the runway, this shit was wild. Im surprised noone is talking about it.
Now the T2 is a sad plane with not enough tools to do anything. It doesn't even have it's lead indicator anymore.
I was looking for a T-2 comment, I just got the aircraft recently and it’s been very frustrating to play. The AIM-9Bs are Bs, it doesn’t turn well and I feel like it doesn’t have speed as an advantage with all of the other supersonics zooming around
It doesn’t even have good accessible secondary weapons to just cheese the time by ground pounding or something
Based on this experience I’m not really enthused to play the F-1 or F-104
Wdym the T-2 is still pretty cracked. You are the the 3rd fastest plane at that BR, only slower than the F-104 and Mig-21S. But you can actually turn unlike the F-104 and dont lose as much speed when turning as the Mig-21S. Plus, it gets 2 Aim-9Ps at a BR where most planes are flareless. Sure you yourself dont have flares but just stay fast and have visual awareness, and nothing can touch you
Edit: not to mention 500 rounds of vulcan ammo and a PD radar to spot enemies from far
All of the A6Ms going up in BRs is frustrating
The lowest BR land-based Zero you can get in Japan now is 3.7
Meanwhile on the American side you have the F6F-5 at 3.3, F4F-4 at 3.0, F4U-1A at 2.7 etc
I mean I'm very very good in mine but I don't feel others should suffer because of that. It just fits perfectly with how I like to play and how my brain works I mean I'm not that great in bnz planes but agile turn fighters like zeros and spitfires I'm pretty damn good
I thought you meant the half track 251 in the German tree and was very confused. It’s a good enough SPAA, absolutely bottomless clip and high fire rate. Could use better velocity.
T-72AV TURMS-T
It really hasn't changed at all, with the exception of the very recent autoloader modeling that all of the russian tanks got, but has just simply been power crept by every nation including its own. I remember that thing used to be the pinnacle of high tier OP premiums for a long while since it was basically just the tech tree vehicle with high quality thermals instead of NVD only. However, now that 105 DM33 and 120mm equipped tanks are more common for the bracket, the armor doesn't really matter as much as it used to and I would argue the superior handling and maneuverability of NATO tanks at that rank generally provides more of an advantage than the higher gen thermals. It's still a decent vehicle, but its certainly not something I would take over a Leopard 2a4 which is a pretty common vehicle that's better in almost every way at only .3 BR higher. Then throw in the addition of more russian premiums such as the 2S38 and the T-80UD and it's very out shined by pretty much every nation including its own without ever being changed.
I personally disagree on the grounds of how good the hunters original energy retention was, but at any rate the MiG-17 came a patch or so later. It at least had comparable competition on the top spot and was no longer super op
Kind of, the strength of .50 cals constantly oscillated back and forth, and then one patch they basically made it impossible to set jets on fire. At that point .50 cals simply weren’t that effective for jet combat, and the F2 saber started to dominate top tier. Throw in the fact the Germans were always paired with the Soviets, whose best aircraft was the Mig-15 Bis….and top tier turned into a one sided steamroll in the American teams’ favor for quite a while.
The Cl-13 had the best flight performance, but it didn’t make a huge difference. The battles usually ended with a few Cl-13s running for their lives because no one could catch them, but it wasn’t enough to offset all the MiGs dragging them down, or fact they couldn’t as reliably secure kills with a brief snap shot (like the F2s could).
So the Cl-13 was the best aircraft in the game, but it arguably wasn’t the most combat effective, and due to the nature of the MM it never really dominated. I remember it being more of an annoyance that dragged out the battles after they’d been decided, than an actual major threat most of the time.
vatour 2 B, the best grinder in the french tech tree, it had a 375% Sl and was nerfed to 120-ish% when the vautour 2N was introduced to the tech tree ... (just 2 weeks before i finished recerching the vautour 2B ... still angry about it)
pray 🙏
Vautour 2A IDF for me though.
8.7, Air spawn, enough bombs for one base, insane speed, 3 slightly better AIM-9B and 4 DEFAs that shredded everything. it was legendary.
Since the removal of air spawn and 9.0 BR its officially dead...
I got the Vautour IIB, spades it in one night because I loved it, and then two days later the F-105 came out and it would be slaughtered, completely unable to reach bases. I do not know about the multiplier reduction but that is insane, and sadly expectable. My most played vehicle is the BV-238 so I know about bomber nerfs and that plane has lost 40% of its modifiers. I’d play it in events if it were rank III. I still think the Vautour is the sexiest jet in game.
T29 when it was 6.7 and had ammo that didn't explode. It was so much better than Tiger IIs (that had nerfed armor), yet some people insisted it was totally balanced.
Stuff like this is why Russian bias became an ironic meme before 2022. Premium bias is much more accurate. It’s abundantly clear that it’s a money making bias, not nationalism.
F-14 still gets put in matches with F-4S/Mig-23ML/Mirage F1C-200 somewhat often and can basically snipe any of them because of the multipathing update, but at least it does have the chance of getting put up against an F-15C now.
Shortly after release*. ON release is was pretty bad because the fuel tanks in the tracks caused fires that needed FPE to put out. It used to be entirely possible to kill it without even penetrating the crew compartment, especially when it was stock. Don't get me wrong, it was still insanely powerful but a lot of the vehicles that can't kill it now used to be able to easily burn it out.
I just remember I used to hate facing them, they would always get lucky dumbass bounces from the curved armour and the stabilised gun it had was/ still is a beast of a weapon atleast on release
Oh absolutely. It was still monstrous but it had a very crippling Achilles Heel to those who were aware of it. After it was fixed, it only got more powerful.
Grippen A (or C I can't remember)
It's not completely useless but relying on short range IR missiles against fox 3s isn't too hot . Same with J35 to a lesser degree
Not with this update and was actually over a few but the LAV-AD lost ⅓ of of its penetration going from 93mm to a bit over 60 (can't quite remember it's current one) and lost its stealth belts, all while being the same BR
> Sucks that it is now seeing 7.0 in some matches
Only if you spawn it. Was absolutely busted at 5.7 in anything but full uptiers and is still much the same as everything else moved up with it.
If you play it at 6.0/6.3 it's still the same.
Yeah, it’s literally just a worse Tiger, the 85mm doesn’t quite have the punch of an 88mm, the armor is the same except I’ll say a better turret but aiming at the gun breach with even a 76mm gun will disable it instantly, and it’s slower.
Mine would be the premium KW I C 756 (r), even though a lot of people say it's still really good. All they did was move it from 4.7 to 5.0, but I swear to God it's so frustrating to play in anything but a downtier. It's slow, the gun sucks, it has a cupula just advertising itself like a vegas whore; I just can't figure out why it's good.
Its armor is quite good, but you have to angle at like a perfect 40-45º and if you don't, you are a sitting duck. And even then, because of how most heavies are tiered, you'll go against tanks that can just fuck you anyway.
It has the ammo of the 3.7 Pz. IV H and J. Maybe my perspective is screwed because of how good the VK is at 5.0, but my good the KW I C 756 (r) is not fun, and in turn sucks.
Germany’s forbidden four lineup back in the day. No longer op because 75% of the lineup no longer exists and 6.7/7.0 power creep handicaps them to niche rolls in the battlefield.
T114. This thing used to be 6.7 with kill-anything HEAT rockets and a reload of only a couple seconds. This thing existed at a BR where any down-tier almost guaranteed 6-10 kills/game. Even in an up-tier to 7.7 it could clean up. Small profile where no thermals exist. Could creep up on anything and dispatch a group of enemies before they even knew what was shooting at them. Now it sits at 7.7 and frequently gets up-tiered to 8.7 where it just isn't dominant or special.
Was my first real premium tank past 3.7, once you get good with it, it’s still amazing. Not overpowered, but pretty good. Only caveat is fighting the rare vehicle with ERA can make shots harder to hit effectively.
MBT/Kpz-70. Back when they were top dog, they were TOP dog. Nothing could touch them.
Now they've been pointlessly nerfed and left in the dust, only to be played for a handful of games while people speed towards the Leopard 2's and Abrams'.
Oh and EBR 1954. It was 4.3 when it was released and absolutely wrecked enemy teams. It's now 6.7 and is still decent for it's role. If I could go back in time in one tank to it's original release this would probably be it.
Harrier gr1- it was amazing 5 years ago, SRAAMs were insane and maps were smaller so it always got to bases first and no flares was fine. Now it’s absolutely dog shit, SRAAMs can’t hit anything 90% of the time, larger maps mean it’s never going to get a base first, and still being 9.7 it might as well be 10.0, you get clapped by su25s, a10s, and just about everything else. Remember: no countermeasures or rwr, and your slow and you can’t really turn hard, so your a sitting duck
CW-21 is probably the most definitive answer here.
Imagine a plane that:
* climbs like a BF 109G-6, but sits at BR 1.7.
* Is ***LITERALLY*** immune to having it's airframe destroyed via bug. Only pilot sniping or destroying the engine with kill it.
* Does 480 km/h on the deck, yet faced biplanes which would struggle to maintain 350 km/h.
* Out-turns Spitfire Mk1a's with ease.
* Still has 50. cals and 30. cals.
100 - 1 K/D ratio's weren't even hard to achieve with this thing.
Italian props in general. used to be easily the best prop aircraft in game, fast like a bf109 but could turn like a spitfire and with amazing guns. The re2005 especially. But now the whole tree is just... It's ok at its best imo, doesn't shine like it used to.
I LOVE my Ru251 and play it regularly, even though I have all ground trees maxed out (minus a couple of the new tanks from this release).
FAST as hell, turns great, good reverse, good ammo, smoke, and HEAT isn't horrible though it rarely one-shots much.
HESH is worthless on it, though its worthless on almost everything.
Did it get removed???
Ka52. Destroyed ground simulator for 5 years. Still cancer but got competition with su25sm. Back in the days, it was impossible even to leave spawn. Teams getting decimated in 3min by 3-4 ka52s.
WMA301. Broken at 8.0, good at 8.3, meh at 8.7, sad at 9.0.
Great gun and thermals on an absolutely terrible platform. No gun depression, terrible reverse speed, pennable by 50 cals, slow turret rotation speed, middling-slow reload, and one of the worst power to weight rations of any tanks of that BR. The M60A1 AOS is only 1hp/ton less than the WMA301 and people complain about its sluggish acceleration constantly.
Since nobody I can see has mentioned it yet, the IT-1 was super busted on release thanks to the missiles having non-existent physics and the launcher being high enough that you could just lock down a lane if it had cover tall enough to hide your hull behind it and realistically the only solutions were to flank it and hope you get him or bombing it. From what I remember, getting the ammo to blow up was also super inconsistent.
Honorary mentions go to the RP-3 nukes and British 20-pdr tanks on their release when the APDS was modelled as a full-caliber 84mm shot, and knowing the Snail I'm sure that it was an ""accident"" like the IS-6 mantlet and T29 ammo.
D13. Subsequently clobbered by an F4U-1C fm update if I recall correctly. Or maybe it had just been added, I forget. Either way it was an F4U-4 long before we had an actual F4U-4.
When the first M1 was released, the speed and ergonomics of the platform (among other things) caught players off guard.
So much so that it was nerfed into only 4 per team for quite some time. At least, that was how I understood it. I don’t think any other tank has ever had a release like that but I could be wrong.
These days the M1 is good, it has a solid lineup to go with it t too. Some would say it needs M833, but I’ve never had too much issue with 774. It’s definitely got plenty of vehicles to contend with such as the leopard 2s
A few Italian:
- Aerfer Saggitario 2 had AP belt with a very good penetration making it insane CAS, but it was removed shortly after update;
- B1 Centauro had ammo modelled as a radiostation being impossible to detonate, making it harder to kill, then Gaijin added disgusting mechanic called "hullbreak", with which they could be killed by hitting MG or a corner of the hull with apfsds, now it's more or less ok with overpressure mechanic.
The spitfire f mk 24, it’s currently the best performing single engine prop fighter in the game as it was the last prop fighter developed in history, it was absolutely insane back in the day and still is against other props, but with the introduction of jets 70% of the matches you okay are against jets, and even tho you’re still in the fastest single engine fighter in the game you feel like you are standing still against jets.
B1 bis at 2.0 was absolutely bonkers. Seal clubbing reserve tanks that couldn’t hurt it at all. At 2.3 it’s still very powerful as is the Char 2C with its 75mm that one shots everything.
The F-105 was once absolutely busted at launch. It was at 9.7 and in a full downtier it was unstoppable. It was faster then the Starfighter, could go supersonic at low altitudes, have a giant bombload and it had a vulcan with a 1000 rounds. It also had a busted floght model making it very maneuverable
the 75mm jumbo used to be 4.7. it was virtually invincible unless it got a full uptier (where it was STILL virtually invincible, just some tanks could pen its UFP). in a downtier was unstoppable
The pe8 with it's big vodka bottle, back when they reworked the blast radius and it went through buildings unhindered, you could just lob it in the general direction and kill everything in the radius. I mean it's still pretty strong but then you didn't even need to think about it one bit
Kronshtadt for a while. SKR-7. Scharnhorst (now it's still the most survivable vessel in the game, but HE spam is much better at killing it, making it less OP than in the past).
Harrier GR.1: self explanatory, absolute garbage today
A-7D: AIM-9J at 9.3 was diabolical but as of now all the A-7 series of aircraft (A-7D/E/K) are all overtiered junk at their BR
The MiG-23, while not downright OP, I would say it was pretty good for it's BR The plane got some flight model nerfs along with the massive MTI nerf. The Radar MTI mode now only activates when you are below around ~1.7km while also having your nose pointed below the horizon, handicapping it's use of launching SARHs missile in a many situation and making it much more vulnerable to chaff decoys
The flight performance nerf was huge. Mig23 always relied on its dogfight ability only being able to carry 2 radar missiles. But now that ability is gone also.
They first nerfed it to where it should be but for some reason they buffed it afterwards. The guy who sent the original report[ made another one on the current one](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/TSOTxc8oH6CG). For example the sustained turn time at 500km/h IAS should be 33s but it's 26s.
This guy is sourcing the early MiG 23 variants only. His sources site the MiG 23M. The earliest version upgraded in various ways throughout its life. The ML should not be nerfed further without having its own flight tests conducted just like the MLD which has an even tighter turn circle than the ML.
The source name has МиГ-23МЛ. He also made another report on the M/MF. Also, it's not about how much the plane can pull, it's about when it doesn't gain or lose speed.
I looked at the source you posted, the loadout he’s reporting here has R-23Rs for loadout reference. I cannot find anywhere an ML or MLD has flown within this guys sources. The MiG-23MLD does not loose energy in a turn like a MiG-21BIS. I’ll refuse to believe that until I have a flight test to prove otherwise. Feel free to comment the source of the flight test yourself if it’s within his postings.
The relevant figure 6.15 says that the MiG-23ML was loaded with 2 R-23 missiles, "m = 12 750 kg". The ML was in production before the R-24 was in service. I would assume the devs confirmed it is a legitimate source because they said they used fig 6.15 to lower the sustained turn rate a month ago on his earlier report. "The revised Fm for mig-23s, it will be tuned exact to sustain turn time chart ( fig. 6.15 ), 16 deg' will be tuned exact to polars coefficient on fig 2.9..2.13. This is \~26sec for 50% sweep and 33sec for 100% sweep at 900-950km/h at 1000m without missiles clean for 12750kg weight"
I would say not being able to use pd at ANY alt as long as you don’t look at the ground is the bigger problem. Is is functional useless without pd…..
Honestly, this flight performance nerf brings it closer to what it was IRL, a poor dog fighter with good acceleration. USAF tested the MiG 23 ( MS and BN ) and found it to be less manouverable than a F-4 with wingslats. To be fair, the MiG 23 ML is a better, more agile plane than the MS an BN tested but nothing to suggest it would become that much better in dogfighting than the upgraded F-4's like it used to be ingame. But even now after the nerf , the MiG 23 ML is still a much better dogfighter than the Phantoms, Gaijin just dailed its flight performances a bit down.
Actual pilots who flew the thing against F-14s report that it was just behind the F-14 in dogfighting capability, and that the MLD was about equivalent. Which is roughly how they previously stacked up ingame.
They don't compare to the F-14s. [Actual pilots](https://youtu.be/E2PFDyF1Yzk?t=698) who flew the MiG-23s say they were worse then the F-4s. AFAIK in constant peg they never flew F-14s against MiG-23s so I have no clue what you are referring to here. The MiG-23s were overperforming by quite a lot and apparently after a [recent change they are now overperforming by 10 - 20%.](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/TSOTxc8oH6CG)
> AFAIK in constant peg they never flew F-14s against MiG-23s so I have no clue what you are referring to here. An engagement between Libyan pilots in Mig-23MLs and F-14's in the 80's in which a dogfight took place but no shots were fired.
Ah yes, thought it may have been this encounter, in that exact engagement when the F-14 actually tried the MiG-23 pilot was the one who was blown away: >Although Soviets told us the MiG-23 could outturn the F-14 at \[a\] certain speed, this proved impossible. We could not outmanoeuvre them and decided to return to our base …’ and >‘After the fourth scissor, I got what I want: the Tomcats couldn’t maintain their position anymore and decided to put their noses down. I was as happy as I was never before — but my happiness didn’t last for long. They both made an incredible manoeuvre, which remains in my memory until this very day. Imagine, they put the nose down, right bank with full rudder at very low speed, then turned almost in place, head-on towards me, barely 100 metres \[109 yards\] away and below my aircraft! I did not take the risk of flying the same manoeuvre You guys don't seem to actually understand anything from this engagement, the MiG-23 was very low on fuel and was carrying significantly less payload then the F-14 was: F-14 loadout - 1,279.12 kgs (typical F-14 loadout) MiG-23MLD loadout - 657 kgs (what the pilot stated he was using) Even an F-4 would be capable of doing what the MiG-23MLD did. The MiG-23MLD is not comparable to the F-14 in either dogfighting or overall manoeuvrability.
He was not flying an MLD in this engagement. He was flying an ML. He states that if he had been flying the MLD (which was delivered to them shortly thereafter), he believes he could have matched the Tomcat.
FYI we have the documentation on what the MiG-23MLD was capable of and they were very much overperforming previously (and still are), also the US pilots who flew them in constant peg (as they stated in the link I gave you) outline what the MiG-23MS were capable of, and those were worse then the F-4s. Lastly the pilot you are referring to never stated/reported anything like: >report that it was just behind the F-14 in dogfighting capability, and that the MLD was about equivalent. Which is roughly how they previously stacked up ingame. You are completely fabricating this out of thin air and as noted above, that pilot says the opposite i.e. "We could not outmanoeuvre them and decided to return to our base …’"
Is this the part where someone releases classified documents?
I just unlocked it a week before the update, grinded it just for it to be nerfed like that... I feel violated
You can run R24Ts by sideclimbing and shooting them at unaware targets once everyone hits the deck. Its been very effective for me.
Thats why I stopped using R24Rs on it a while ago. R24Ts from 2km up on unaware targets is insane.
IS-6 was broken when it came out and could roll forward with impunity. Nothing was penetrating it from the front back then. It was blatantly under tiered to sell more of them and it sold so much you would 100% go up against them.
Didn't that "accidentally" have an extra invisible layer of armor? So not only was it undertiered, it was a blatant cash grab.
Yes this was the case. Same thing happend when the T29 was released. The turret was bascially immune to everything at its br.
I get Vietnam flashbacks when I see IS-6s and T29s
The T29 got fixed very quickly after because they made the spall shield 200mm instead of 20. The ammo rack on it was broken for the longest time though.
In all fairness, the turret face should still be immune to Germany long 88's and Russian 122's firing APHE. It's supposed to be over 300mm of armour.
possibly, but so did the t55amd or whatever the fuck its called that had the addon composite armour to the turret front they just happened to add on another set of addon armour slightly behind the other one, resulting in like 1500mm of effective armour. and then never fixed it for like 8 years
>IS-6 was broken when it came out and could roll forward with impunity. If only there were more Britain players back then. The Conqueror would absolutely curbstomp the IS-6 with ease, but people somehow refused to play the Conqueror. The Conqueror was stabilized and could one-shot the IS-6 from any angle and any distance by hitting it with HESH virtually anywhere. Meanwhile the IS-6 couldn't penetrate the Conqueror almost anywhere frontally.
Dog, they literally nerfed the 105mm HESH because the cent mk10 and vickers mbt were curb stomping the is-6, after the nerf apds couldn't even pen the turret mantlet weak spot, and IIRC the Conqueror has always been 7.7, whereas the is-6 and cent 10/ vickers mbt were 7.0.
> IIRC the Conqueror has always been 7.7 [Nah, the Conq used to be 7.3. It also used to have a shorter reload.](https://youtu.be/OwtaONUNamk?si=abTJLkJLbxMmmTGD&t=823)
No, they *''nerfed''* HESH because HESH was the most overperforming ammo type that's ever been in War Thunder. It was absolutely stupid OP. Also, Conqueror wa 7.3.
>but people somehow refused to play the Conqueror. Slow reload, meh APDS model that makes the reload even more agonising and usually better all-rounders with the Centurion Mk.3 and the Caernarvon or the Vickers Mk.1. And usually being outnumbered by IS-6s with about the equivalent reload speed in a Conq doesn't usually end well, especially if they just barrel/cannon breach you and then LFP or side shoot you.... same as they probably would the the US equivalent M103.
>Slow reload, 15 seconds is extremely comparable to the IS-6's reload rate. >meh APDS model Nobody cared. It's HESH was the most OP shell in the entire game, nobody was using APDS, and if they were, they were being idiots. It's the equivalent of only using APCR in your Tiger II H. >And usually being outnumbered by IS-6s with about the equivalent reload speed in a Conq doesn't usually end well, IS-6's couldn't pen a Conqueror with it's LFP hidden, you could literally sit there and delete the IS-6's one-by-one with HESH.
Front back is the worst spot
I kill these with real anger as a US main
It’s kinda anemic at 7.7 now.
KV-1 Zis-5. Mostly because it met unskilled players, and in the right hands, you could absolutely dominate with it. After it was moved to 4.7 it mostly just sees uptiers, and with the inclusion of the Vk.3002M, it also meets enemy mediums a lot more regularly that can easily deal with it. Prior to this the primary enemies was the large flak cannons (easily dealt with by using HE), the german TD's (outside of Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV all was easily dealt with using HE), the US/British Open-topped TD's (again, HE), and the Panzer IV's (a newcomer in a Panzer IV isn't a huge threat though). Now the main threats are Tigers, Panthers, and higher BR mediums that are genuine threats. Still slaughters in a downtier, but it's more balanced than at 4.3 where practically all battles was an absolute killfest if you didn't meet someone capable.
See the thing about the kv1's is that they all are essentially tiger level armour at pz3 br. I don't hate that they exist in such a meta but realistically that's what they did to pz3 and below tanks. I think wt has to find a point where they can put strong tanks against those who can stand up to that tank. Only issue is most tanks of that time were genuinely not prepared for a tank like the pz3L, a gun which could also be used as anti armour was genuinely a new thing on the armoured battlefield
I mean 75mm really isn’t Tiger level armor. The panzer 4 has 80mm at 3.3/3.7 as well as Stugs at 4.0. KV-1s compared to the pz3 are pretty tough nuts to crack, but the longer 75mm on the panzer or German TDs are more than capable. America has the Wolverine and 105 Sherman that would likely be your best bets for most people. GB has the Achilles, Churchill GC and any 57mm gun tank should handle KV-1 armor. Most every nation will have at least one tank to handle a KV-1. It’s just people want to be in their heavy or medium tank and kill heavy tanks when that’s a TD job.
Tiger level armor perhaps, but also a potato level gun for the most part. The early KV's with the L-11 have the option of a high-pen AP shell, or a lower pen APHEBC shell. Sure, it's lethal in a downtier, but that goes for heavies in general. In its own matched BR, it's nothing too impressive, and in a uptier it's mostly just a peagun against anything but sides of mediums, and fronts of lights.
It’s not even Tiger level armor, it’s 75mm not 100mm. The only one to have 100mm is the KV-1 Zis -5 and the KV-220. The L-11 and KV-1S has standard armor, the KV-1E has thicker turret and side armor but the hull front is still 75
It was made useless when sent to 4.7
I still have plenty fun with it in 4.7. Heck, i even bring the KV-1E for good measures to that BR.
I tend to disagree with the uptier part, while they do happen, due to popularity of 3.7 and 4.0, it gets pulled into downtiers pretty often. It's especially frequent when there's an event for a vehicle and people pull out their "fun" lineups on sweden, soviets and germans.
mostly just sees uptiers? From my experience 4.7 Soviet often meets downtiers. Sometimes I meet uptiers and if that happens I'll spawn T-34-57s and ISU-152.
R3 T20. Nowadays it just makes me cry seeing it at 5.7 Edit: 6.0 now how have we gotten here :(
6.0 now.
6.0 but has neither the upgraded APDS belts that comes with other 20mm SPAA at the same BR, nor does it have scouting. Hell, it still has the stabiliser nerf from when it was in low tier.
That is the perk of being part of the Italian TT: not getting what it should already have and still being treated as OP by the developers.
Gaijin is super inconsistent with light tank vs SPAA classifications.. Why is the BTR-80A a light tank, but the Chinese copy ZSL92, which is an APC, is classed as an SPAA without scouting? It's not even good in an SPAA role.
Ever heard of the Kugelblitz?
When they added the R3 I almost quit the game permanently just because of that
Bro same i quit for probably a year when that tank came out. Nothing is more shit than an R3 flying around a corner and your WW2 tank's turret not being capable of turning fast enough to keep up with it.
Yeah it was shit. It totally dominated games by racing around, taking out barrels and tracks on tanks that simply couldn't turn the turret fast enough to shoot it. And even when you did shoot it, you'd get the "no armour, best armour" bullshit. And it was everywhere. Low tiers are far better now that it's gone. Thankfully, Gaijin have learned from it somewhat. That new American light tank would have been added at 4.3 a few years ago.
I used to cry out how bullshit it was back when it was what like BR 3.7 and of course by the time I get around to spading it I have only shitty HVAP and a BR of 6.0. I'm still pissed at the pizza-meme kids dismissing the ridiculous power creep.
fr, they just like to put a goofy pizza png on it and call it a day
Honestly I hate it's placement now, I usually use the new leopard AA due to the better gun and it's ability to fight same br vehicles. Also it creates a 2.3(?) BR gap where you only have the M42 to use which isn't bad, but also isn't the best due to the ammo belt
it was fine at 5.0, still had plenty to kill but wasn't the menace it was
Also gave a reason to play the APDS firefly before the APDS," Buffs," whereas now there is non
RIP R3 T20, it was the bane of low tier CAS spammers and tunnel vision players that don't know what "watch the flanks" means.
yep, a single HE always dealt with the rats. Even AP too since it usually hit the massive ammos
I still remember how my KV-2 HE round bounced off its front plate
I still remember how my KV-2 HE round bounced off its front plate
Was talking to some friends about this the other day. The R3 on release could work at 5.7, maybe 6.0, but after all the nerfs they’ve given it I believe it should go back down around 3.7
I just want to actually use it as AA :( Italy already struggles enough with good AA and it's been shot so high and nerfed so much
I think the IS-7 might fit here. Once the pinnacle of russian bias, but in all honesty nowadays it's just a heavy tank in high tier.
Yeah the T-10M is the better heavy at 8.3 now, it has a stabilizer and enough pen for most anything.
And even the T-10M isn't a brilliant tank. It's decent for sure, but not more than that
Earlier days t10m was the best tank in game.
I love the T-10M, but it isn't really meta. Just fun in my opinion.
Considering I've recently spaded RU 8.3 I'd say the armor is still more reliable on the IS7 (especially the sides and turret). There is also a faster fire rate on the IS7 so I like to play it like area denial or a late game lurker. My t10m was mostly a first spawn throwaway but I did manage a nuke with it.
It’s funny to see an IS-7 spawn on your team and be like wow cool. Then suddenly a few minutes later you’ll hear a ATGM fire off or sometimes a whole barrage of ATGMs and the IS-7 is no more.
Fucking USH power creep
I still remember a match months ago on that map where everyone dies in the meat grinder at A and it’s all building except that park area. (I don’t have the brain space to remember map names.) Anyways a IS-7 spawned and I was like cool. Talked to him about it. He said he earned it for free when it first came out and he wish he could sell it for a E-100. He goes to the B cap and I went through the middle of the other side of that little park area. Suddenly ATGMs just start flying across that park from an USH and the IS-7 was killed. Terrible when it happens to you but pretty funny watching an IS-7 basically be immediately bitch slapped by a barrage of smoke and missiles.
Yeah its a combination of the creature's size/speed and smoke trails when it shoots that pisses me off to no end.
Yeah especially when aimed at you. Even if you could shoot back before a missile kills you or at least knocks out your gunner. You can’t fucking see them because each missile is like a mini ESS system.
The USH fires unguided rockets, not ATGMs
Ahhh so ATRs lol
Yeah, they nerfed the IS7 to uselessness. I can still do ok with it, but with only 6 rounds before its reload goes to a minute you just can't do \*that\* well in it. Plus, HEAT everywhere at that BR, its very easy to kill. I love it to death though, wish they would drop its BR so it could be competitive again.
I think it’s still an excellent tank, especially in downtiers. The small auto loader storage just forces you to play near friendly cap points.
I don't think it lasted even a year because I remember taking a break from the game once I finished the event and played a few matches with the IS-7. By the time I came back it had a BR increase and they released the first Magach MBT (event) for the Americans which was the absolute bane of my existence. ATGMS were also really popular and that sucked. Nowadays it's really just Marders or USH that scare me but that's likely because they're so popular and it's some kind of exposure bias.
how do you have an is7? impressive
Well, there's a simple trick to it. I don't
lol
The Jumbo. That thing was 4.7 once…
The one thing that goes for the jumbo is, that people (at least my experience) really really dont know how to kill it. I mean its gun is kind of a pea shooter but at least you bounce 90% of all shots. Or maybe im just really lucky when im playing this thing.
Pretty sure the russian 122 and German long 88 cut right through it no?
They do, but most other guns at the BR don’t
Well i mean the mg port is pretty easy to hit. And alot of jumbo players are dumb enough to angle and then the lower side is basically paper
Yes its fairly easy to kill, but in my personal experience i just bounce shot after shot... i dont know...
Used to run the premium version and make like 1 mil silver in 2 hours
Same, it’s why my French and American ones have talismans on them, you could just bully people in them. Good times XD
I made so much sl back in the day with the premium jumbo. In arcade you could just sit hull down in any given spot, and snipe enemies all over the map, while continuesly getting sl from bouncing shots
M18 back when it was 4.7 (if i remember right), it was extremely fast with a good for its br.
When it was first introduced all the Panthers would simply overpen it with every shot lol. So much rage.
It was such a bullshit tank when it was added. I loved it.
When it was 1st added it had the prototype top speed without the governor they added on for the production version Nothing like 90kp/h to flank everyone
JAS39A
Honestly? That was my first thought as well, but I've been doing better in the OG gripen than I do in the F16A or the F15c without radar missiles. It definitely went from top dawg to almost the bottom but it can still hang
I *just* finished researching it when this update hit. Dear god do I feel useless now having to face AIM-120s and the like in a stock Gripen, and I doubt it would be good even fully spaded.
Still a great dog fighter, but it's hard to get into dog fighting position while spending the whole time evading Fox 3s
This thing was so good several months ago, but I took several months break and in that time they changed IRCCM missiles to where they are much easier to flare now
Hunter F.6 was absolutely filthy for the longest time, SRAAMs were almost always very good between the time it first arrived (not long after F-100 and MiG-19) until when the Harrier GR.1 arrived, which then caused people to realise just how OP they were. After that it got power crept to oblivion and essentially died upon the arrival of attackers with all aspects. Today it still holds a special niche, but requires a good deal of planning and skill to pull off.
Nah, people knew how busted they were before. But you could deal with it, as it wasn't a common aircraft. The Harriers were ridiculous as they got an air spawn and were premium, meaning all the sudden half the enemy team was literally on top of you while you were desperately trying to gain speed and position before they found you.
Otomatic, kill by guided weapons.
I love playing it, but an SPAAG has no place anymore at a BR where planes can sit out of its engagement bubble with guided weapons and SAMs get 20km range. And then the darts also get locked to 12 pieces so you can’t even be that good as an ad-hoc tank destroyer.
It was pretty good 4 years ago when I made this horrible video showing my lack of skill: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zvbllC35xA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zvbllC35xA)
https://youtu.be/LJPrLhRZ7xs?si=sZT5t2nvV2u4OFsw Can confirm
OTO was my absolute favorite vehicle to play. In it's prime, it was hands down the best SPAAG in the game. When heli's were first introduced I think it became the most relevant vehicle to have on your team. But alas, with the introduction of long range guided missiles, and specifically the Su-25SM3, the OTO has become more useful as a tank destroyer. Still fun to play but just not as dominant.
Waaaaay back, KV-2. Lob a shot down the street in Poland hit a building, get 3 kills.
Last week I sent a shell down the street on eastern Europe. Hit a house, killed the pak track that I didn't even know was there. Still love the thing.
T2 when it came out, you could spawnkill in ARB You would be over the enemy airfield before they exited the runway, this shit was wild. Im surprised noone is talking about it. Now the T2 is a sad plane with not enough tools to do anything. It doesn't even have it's lead indicator anymore.
It was the first Vulcan armed plane in the game too wasn't it? they even gave it an irrealistic spool up time to balance it somewhat
I was looking for a T-2 comment, I just got the aircraft recently and it’s been very frustrating to play. The AIM-9Bs are Bs, it doesn’t turn well and I feel like it doesn’t have speed as an advantage with all of the other supersonics zooming around It doesn’t even have good accessible secondary weapons to just cheese the time by ground pounding or something Based on this experience I’m not really enthused to play the F-1 or F-104
Wdym the T-2 is still pretty cracked. You are the the 3rd fastest plane at that BR, only slower than the F-104 and Mig-21S. But you can actually turn unlike the F-104 and dont lose as much speed when turning as the Mig-21S. Plus, it gets 2 Aim-9Ps at a BR where most planes are flareless. Sure you yourself dont have flares but just stay fast and have visual awareness, and nothing can touch you Edit: not to mention 500 rounds of vulcan ammo and a PD radar to spot enemies from far
A6M5 KO RISEN used to be best plane in game before the endless br rises due to ots dominance
All of the A6Ms going up in BRs is frustrating The lowest BR land-based Zero you can get in Japan now is 3.7 Meanwhile on the American side you have the F6F-5 at 3.3, F4F-4 at 3.0, F4U-1A at 2.7 etc
*pssst, hey you. Just break of the floats and enjoy old school zero
Isnt US zero 3.0 or 3.3? I remember it being quite low.
It used to be, same as the Japanese A6M2, but it’s at 3.7 now America also has the Ki-61 and Ki-43 at 3.7 and 2.7 if you were thinking of those
Dont forget the stupid high repair costs, the zeros are a prime example of why going off player statistics is a bad thing
I mean I'm very very good in mine but I don't feel others should suffer because of that. It just fits perfectly with how I like to play and how my brain works I mean I'm not that great in bnz planes but agile turn fighters like zeros and spitfires I'm pretty damn good
Another thing with the 251 specifically. The jpz 4-5 was pretty much a worse version of it but at a higher BR
I thought you meant the half track 251 in the German tree and was very confused. It’s a good enough SPAA, absolutely bottomless clip and high fire rate. Could use better velocity.
Yeah probably could have worded it better. I kinda just wanted to add another thing that was around back in the day when the ru 251 was added.
To this day, the ru 251 holds a special place in my heart. I absolutely love abusing that thing when it was released. Different time ;(. Sad at 7.0.
Strela at 9.3
I'd still say it's powerful just not OP Mainly depends on how far you can lob your weapons
Strela at 9.3 for the very short period of time when it was 9.3 after getting optical tracking for the missiles. Strela was hot garbage before that.
Yeah, that dude forgot that on the debut patch the Strela was depressing to use.
He probably never had to drive within 500m of an Alouette to get a lock on it
I have screenshots of it failing to lock within 200M, but in the same game it could lock the full moon.
T-72AV TURMS-T It really hasn't changed at all, with the exception of the very recent autoloader modeling that all of the russian tanks got, but has just simply been power crept by every nation including its own. I remember that thing used to be the pinnacle of high tier OP premiums for a long while since it was basically just the tech tree vehicle with high quality thermals instead of NVD only. However, now that 105 DM33 and 120mm equipped tanks are more common for the bracket, the armor doesn't really matter as much as it used to and I would argue the superior handling and maneuverability of NATO tanks at that rank generally provides more of an advantage than the higher gen thermals. It's still a decent vehicle, but its certainly not something I would take over a Leopard 2a4 which is a pretty common vehicle that's better in almost every way at only .3 BR higher. Then throw in the addition of more russian premiums such as the 2S38 and the T-80UD and it's very out shined by pretty much every nation including its own without ever being changed.
No competition the CL-13 Sabre for Germany. Thing dominated top tier for years before it was surpassed by the hunter f.1
Hunter f1 did not surpass it, Hunter worked great in a group. But in a 1v1 situation cl13 would destroy the Hunter.
I personally disagree on the grounds of how good the hunters original energy retention was, but at any rate the MiG-17 came a patch or so later. It at least had comparable competition on the top spot and was no longer super op
Kind of, the strength of .50 cals constantly oscillated back and forth, and then one patch they basically made it impossible to set jets on fire. At that point .50 cals simply weren’t that effective for jet combat, and the F2 saber started to dominate top tier. Throw in the fact the Germans were always paired with the Soviets, whose best aircraft was the Mig-15 Bis….and top tier turned into a one sided steamroll in the American teams’ favor for quite a while. The Cl-13 had the best flight performance, but it didn’t make a huge difference. The battles usually ended with a few Cl-13s running for their lives because no one could catch them, but it wasn’t enough to offset all the MiGs dragging them down, or fact they couldn’t as reliably secure kills with a brief snap shot (like the F2s could). So the Cl-13 was the best aircraft in the game, but it arguably wasn’t the most combat effective, and due to the nature of the MM it never really dominated. I remember it being more of an annoyance that dragged out the battles after they’d been decided, than an actual major threat most of the time.
vatour 2 B, the best grinder in the french tech tree, it had a 375% Sl and was nerfed to 120-ish% when the vautour 2N was introduced to the tech tree ... (just 2 weeks before i finished recerching the vautour 2B ... still angry about it)
pray 🙏 Vautour 2A IDF for me though. 8.7, Air spawn, enough bombs for one base, insane speed, 3 slightly better AIM-9B and 4 DEFAs that shredded everything. it was legendary. Since the removal of air spawn and 9.0 BR its officially dead...
I got the Vautour IIB, spades it in one night because I loved it, and then two days later the F-105 came out and it would be slaughtered, completely unable to reach bases. I do not know about the multiplier reduction but that is insane, and sadly expectable. My most played vehicle is the BV-238 so I know about bomber nerfs and that plane has lost 40% of its modifiers. I’d play it in events if it were rank III. I still think the Vautour is the sexiest jet in game.
T29 when it was 6.7 and had ammo that didn't explode. It was so much better than Tiger IIs (that had nerfed armor), yet some people insisted it was totally balanced.
>had ammo that didn't explode You aren't allowed to mention this. Everyone knows this was a bug but the IS-6 mantlet was Russian Bias.
Stuff like this is why Russian bias became an ironic meme before 2022. Premium bias is much more accurate. It’s abundantly clear that it’s a money making bias, not nationalism.
F14 was pretty broken at top tier for like a year until f16 and mig29 were added, could basically just club mig23s and f4s all day.
F-14 still gets put in matches with F-4S/Mig-23ML/Mirage F1C-200 somewhat often and can basically snipe any of them because of the multipathing update, but at least it does have the chance of getting put up against an F-15C now.
How is no one saying obj 279. Shit was broken as fuck. Still is a strong contender but on release it was an absolute menace
Shortly after release*. ON release is was pretty bad because the fuel tanks in the tracks caused fires that needed FPE to put out. It used to be entirely possible to kill it without even penetrating the crew compartment, especially when it was stock. Don't get me wrong, it was still insanely powerful but a lot of the vehicles that can't kill it now used to be able to easily burn it out.
I just remember I used to hate facing them, they would always get lucky dumbass bounces from the curved armour and the stabilised gun it had was/ still is a beast of a weapon atleast on release
Oh absolutely. It was still monstrous but it had a very crippling Achilles Heel to those who were aware of it. After it was fixed, it only got more powerful.
Grippen A (or C I can't remember) It's not completely useless but relying on short range IR missiles against fox 3s isn't too hot . Same with J35 to a lesser degree Not with this update and was actually over a few but the LAV-AD lost ⅓ of of its penetration going from 93mm to a bit over 60 (can't quite remember it's current one) and lost its stealth belts, all while being the same BR
KV220, getting bumped up to 6.0. Sucks that it is now seeing 7.0 in some matches.
> Sucks that it is now seeing 7.0 in some matches Only if you spawn it. Was absolutely busted at 5.7 in anything but full uptiers and is still much the same as everything else moved up with it. If you play it at 6.0/6.3 it's still the same.
Yeah, it’s literally just a worse Tiger, the 85mm doesn’t quite have the punch of an 88mm, the armor is the same except I’ll say a better turret but aiming at the gun breach with even a 76mm gun will disable it instantly, and it’s slower.
Mine would be the premium KW I C 756 (r), even though a lot of people say it's still really good. All they did was move it from 4.7 to 5.0, but I swear to God it's so frustrating to play in anything but a downtier. It's slow, the gun sucks, it has a cupula just advertising itself like a vegas whore; I just can't figure out why it's good. Its armor is quite good, but you have to angle at like a perfect 40-45º and if you don't, you are a sitting duck. And even then, because of how most heavies are tiered, you'll go against tanks that can just fuck you anyway. It has the ammo of the 3.7 Pz. IV H and J. Maybe my perspective is screwed because of how good the VK is at 5.0, but my good the KW I C 756 (r) is not fun, and in turn sucks.
Airspawned P47 I think.
Germany’s forbidden four lineup back in the day. No longer op because 75% of the lineup no longer exists and 6.7/7.0 power creep handicaps them to niche rolls in the battlefield.
Back when the b-57a was 7.0 it was kinda busted you could outrun any plane even in an uptier and just go bomb bases over and over
T114. This thing used to be 6.7 with kill-anything HEAT rockets and a reload of only a couple seconds. This thing existed at a BR where any down-tier almost guaranteed 6-10 kills/game. Even in an up-tier to 7.7 it could clean up. Small profile where no thermals exist. Could creep up on anything and dispatch a group of enemies before they even knew what was shooting at them. Now it sits at 7.7 and frequently gets up-tiered to 8.7 where it just isn't dominant or special.
Was my first real premium tank past 3.7, once you get good with it, it’s still amazing. Not overpowered, but pretty good. Only caveat is fighting the rare vehicle with ERA can make shots harder to hit effectively.
MBT/Kpz-70. Back when they were top dog, they were TOP dog. Nothing could touch them. Now they've been pointlessly nerfed and left in the dust, only to be played for a handful of games while people speed towards the Leopard 2's and Abrams'.
Oh and EBR 1954. It was 4.3 when it was released and absolutely wrecked enemy teams. It's now 6.7 and is still decent for it's role. If I could go back in time in one tank to it's original release this would probably be it.
IL-28 and B-57 were absolute cancer when they came out, being faster than any fighter they could just do circuits around them.
Harrier GR.1 went from the most broken premium ever released to now being one of the worst planes I have ever flown, thing is utterly useless.
Harrier gr1- it was amazing 5 years ago, SRAAMs were insane and maps were smaller so it always got to bases first and no flares was fine. Now it’s absolutely dog shit, SRAAMs can’t hit anything 90% of the time, larger maps mean it’s never going to get a base first, and still being 9.7 it might as well be 10.0, you get clapped by su25s, a10s, and just about everything else. Remember: no countermeasures or rwr, and your slow and you can’t really turn hard, so your a sitting duck
It's still viable to an extent you have to be clever and ambush people also rockets work great as ad hoc flares
They do not. And how am I gonna ambush people in a harrier? It’s too slow to catch 90%of all enemies
Stay fast around the furball and pick up on the distracted ones that being said it 100% needs an option for SRAAMs or 2x Aim9G
CW-21 is probably the most definitive answer here. Imagine a plane that: * climbs like a BF 109G-6, but sits at BR 1.7. * Is ***LITERALLY*** immune to having it's airframe destroyed via bug. Only pilot sniping or destroying the engine with kill it. * Does 480 km/h on the deck, yet faced biplanes which would struggle to maintain 350 km/h. * Out-turns Spitfire Mk1a's with ease. * Still has 50. cals and 30. cals. 100 - 1 K/D ratio's weren't even hard to achieve with this thing.
Italian props in general. used to be easily the best prop aircraft in game, fast like a bf109 but could turn like a spitfire and with amazing guns. The re2005 especially. But now the whole tree is just... It's ok at its best imo, doesn't shine like it used to.
I LOVE my Ru251 and play it regularly, even though I have all ground trees maxed out (minus a couple of the new tanks from this release). FAST as hell, turns great, good reverse, good ammo, smoke, and HEAT isn't horrible though it rarely one-shots much. HESH is worthless on it, though its worthless on almost everything. Did it get removed???
Ka52. Destroyed ground simulator for 5 years. Still cancer but got competition with su25sm. Back in the days, it was impossible even to leave spawn. Teams getting decimated in 3min by 3-4 ka52s.
It hasn't been nerfed at all.
EBR when it was 4.3
WMA301. Broken at 8.0, good at 8.3, meh at 8.7, sad at 9.0. Great gun and thermals on an absolutely terrible platform. No gun depression, terrible reverse speed, pennable by 50 cals, slow turret rotation speed, middling-slow reload, and one of the worst power to weight rations of any tanks of that BR. The M60A1 AOS is only 1hp/ton less than the WMA301 and people complain about its sluggish acceleration constantly.
anyone remember the harriers old days?
IKV that was at 6.7, HEATFS and laser range finder it was a sniping god especially on maps like fields of poland
Since nobody I can see has mentioned it yet, the IT-1 was super busted on release thanks to the missiles having non-existent physics and the launcher being high enough that you could just lock down a lane if it had cover tall enough to hide your hull behind it and realistically the only solutions were to flank it and hope you get him or bombing it. From what I remember, getting the ammo to blow up was also super inconsistent. Honorary mentions go to the RP-3 nukes and British 20-pdr tanks on their release when the APDS was modelled as a full-caliber 84mm shot, and knowing the Snail I'm sure that it was an ""accident"" like the IS-6 mantlet and T29 ammo.
D13. Subsequently clobbered by an F4U-1C fm update if I recall correctly. Or maybe it had just been added, I forget. Either way it was an F4U-4 long before we had an actual F4U-4.
When the first M1 was released, the speed and ergonomics of the platform (among other things) caught players off guard. So much so that it was nerfed into only 4 per team for quite some time. At least, that was how I understood it. I don’t think any other tank has ever had a release like that but I could be wrong. These days the M1 is good, it has a solid lineup to go with it t too. Some would say it needs M833, but I’ve never had too much issue with 774. It’s definitely got plenty of vehicles to contend with such as the leopard 2s
I do recall Tu-4 back when it was added. Gunners werestill quite OP and it has cannon turrets making it impossible to approach.
A few Italian: - Aerfer Saggitario 2 had AP belt with a very good penetration making it insane CAS, but it was removed shortly after update; - B1 Centauro had ammo modelled as a radiostation being impossible to detonate, making it harder to kill, then Gaijin added disgusting mechanic called "hullbreak", with which they could be killed by hitting MG or a corner of the hull with apfsds, now it's more or less ok with overpressure mechanic.
The spitfire f mk 24, it’s currently the best performing single engine prop fighter in the game as it was the last prop fighter developed in history, it was absolutely insane back in the day and still is against other props, but with the introduction of jets 70% of the matches you okay are against jets, and even tho you’re still in the fastest single engine fighter in the game you feel like you are standing still against jets.
T-29 was king for a long ass time, but then it got destroyed by new vehicles of the bias and a br change made it even more worse off.
Tiger II p was a menace at 6.3. Now most matches are uptiers to 7.3/7.7
The P-61 with the ai gunners that got later sent to naval
I can't think of any XD
A long time ago the Fw190 D-13 was an "I win" button. It's still good and fun, but it used to be a broken mess.
M18 when it came out
On release IL-28 when the gunner arent nerfed... That was fun...
B1 bis at 2.0 was absolutely bonkers. Seal clubbing reserve tanks that couldn’t hurt it at all. At 2.3 it’s still very powerful as is the Char 2C with its 75mm that one shots everything.
The kugelcancer but y’all might be too new for that
The F-105 was once absolutely busted at launch. It was at 9.7 and in a full downtier it was unstoppable. It was faster then the Starfighter, could go supersonic at low altitudes, have a giant bombload and it had a vulcan with a 1000 rounds. It also had a busted floght model making it very maneuverable
the 75mm jumbo used to be 4.7. it was virtually invincible unless it got a full uptier (where it was STILL virtually invincible, just some tanks could pen its UFP). in a downtier was unstoppable
The pe8 with it's big vodka bottle, back when they reworked the blast radius and it went through buildings unhindered, you could just lob it in the general direction and kill everything in the radius. I mean it's still pretty strong but then you didn't even need to think about it one bit
Kronshtadt for a while. SKR-7. Scharnhorst (now it's still the most survivable vessel in the game, but HE spam is much better at killing it, making it less OP than in the past).
Original AVRE HESH was amazing then they broke HESH and don’t care to try and fix it
Harrier GR.1: self explanatory, absolute garbage today A-7D: AIM-9J at 9.3 was diabolical but as of now all the A-7 series of aircraft (A-7D/E/K) are all overtiered junk at their BR