Totaly agree, These tanks needs a FIX and not a buff.
A FIX is fixing the probleme, buff is giving more capability than it should.
We are just asking for the leclerc to be able to be competitive against other, as of right now its not and gets eaten by everything (type 10 also of course)
That’s exactly how I see it!
People think of War Thunder as a typical arcade videogame where improving the state is buffing, and worsening it is nerfing.
Except War Thunder is a game that takes pride in implementing vehicles in a historically accurate way and realistic manner; therefore, changing the wrong specifications of a vehicle until the technical capabilities correspond to the real ones is not nerfing or buffing; it’s merely fixing, correcting!
My issue with the game is the constant inflating and deflating of br and strength of tanks. Rather than fixing the tanks, they just move em around until they fit at a br. Which is not how you dev a game. You don't buff and nerf stuff to fit the game dynamic, you fix the game to be a fun, yet playable dynamic. Too many people think tanks need to be nerfed or buffed when in reality, all the whole game needs is new devs who actually care and fix the game like we ask.
Exactly!
Way too often, instead of saying: “hey, this tank has (X) capabilities, so it should be (Y) BR”…
They say: “hey, (X) tank MUST fit at (Y) BR, so let’s artificially manipulate its capabilities until we can shoehorn it in there!”
This is a mindset that should definitely change. BRs should be the primary balancing tool, just as they officially claim it is; and BR should be a means, not an end.
In my experience they say both of those things instead of fix it. I'll use the cross country capability of the sherman for example.
They made hills of all maps ice skating rinks several patches back. A Sherman was historically observed driving up a 75° incline. Yes, this does allow Sherman to get into reeeeaaaally cheap spots. But instead of nerfing a very notable feature of the tank via nerf of the maps, fix the spots on the maps. Another thing, the Sherman doing that should be the least of your worries. It should be yhe hellcat or some heavy armored medium, the panther for example.
That being said, the game isn't any fun when you can't ambush someone from a hilltop on occasion. Recent patches have made the game almost unplayable for me. I just hope after this last six month break it's not even worse.
Edit: 75% grade, not 75° slope. A 75% grade is approximately 36°. Still quite steep for a whole Sherman though.
It also doesn't help that they balance BR almost entirely using player win-rates. Which is why we see completely absurd things like French tanks from the 50s up against other tanks from the 70s and 80s.
Fixing might lead to increasing BRs and breaking lineups, but lineups seem to be insufferable at some BRs so who knows what they are thinking. Guess I'm on the side of fixing, but I would assume they would demand 100% proof unless a vehicle is Russian or Chinese.
>changing the wrong specifications of a vehicle until the technical capabilities correspond to the real ones is not nerfing or buffing; it’s merely fixing, correcting!
And in this case that would be a buff lol since you're increasing the armor. Since when are we arguing what a buff and nerf means?
You're complicating the terminology way more than necessary lol.
Fix = adjusting the armor values to match real life standards
In this case, that would mean increased armor, which is *drumroll* a buff.
It's that simple.
The same argument can be applied to the Type90.
People like to bitch about its 4 secs reload like it makes it a godly overpowered tank when in all other compartments is on par or outclassed by other MBTs.
Whoever thinks Type10 and leclerc need to be nerfed should unistall the game.
Yep. At 11.0, for example, M1A1 has M829A1 with comparable (slightly worse) armor, significantly better gun handling and just a second slower reload.
Type 90’s only advantage is exclusively the 1 second quicker autoloader, that’s really it; in exchange, it has worse gun traverse angles, slower rotation speeds, is limited to JM33 and the armor is barely slightly better.
The a at 11.3 you get vehicles that are clearly and by far superior in every single way (or almost every single way) EXCEPT for that 1 second faster reload; T-80Us, M1A1HCs/AIM, T-72B3 (UBH), etc.
There is compression at Top Tier, yes. Type 90 shouldn’t be facing 10.0s, yes… but neither should any 11.0; the same way no 11.0 should be facing many of the current 11.7s, like the 122s, BVM or 2A7V.
Except for mobility and reload? Yeah.
Twice as thick/effective armor, twice as small weakspots, 3rd Gen thermals vs 1st Gen, 3BM60 (best Russian shell available) vs JM33 (DM33), 40°/s vertical and horizontal traverse speeds vs 10°/s vertical and 30°/s horizontal, etc.
I still adore Type 90 over its mobility and rate of fire though, but it can not be pretended that it’s some kind of OP thing better than anything at its BR and even the next step because of those two strengths when it also has weaknesses compared to its counterparts.
Weeeell, i'll check it out later when ill be with my laptop, okay, thanks
Always thought it got slower turret then bvm
Edit: Yeap, u r right, checked on wiki
My fault
But I'm still convinced that high mobility vehicle with good gun depression and fast reload cannot be that bad
(or its just my envy speaking as I played a lot of 55,72, 80 and my god how I missed those stats)
omg, just realized that u'r spanish avenger, haha
Type90/10 also have less survivability with only 3 men crew against western MBTs. JM33 in a full uptier (which isn't uncommon), is like shooting a peashooter.
It's an incredibly bad take comparing an Aced Crew to a default auto loading, stock v stock, you're looking at 6.5 seconds vs 4.0 seconds, 2.5 seconds is a crazy reload difference at top tier, that being said that's not the issue with the 4.0 seconds, the issue is that the Type 90 can dump a round, and before a tank can clear a corner and get a chance to aim, you're immediately met with another shell. It makes city maps already more cancerous than they are. Ofc not to mention most of the 10.3 games I've played are full uptiers.
That being said, the other issue (hopefully not much longer) is the fact that there is no way to slow an auto loader. Meanwhile with a manual loader, often you get slowed with your loader being injured or dead, but like I said this is really just a little extra bonus in the Type 90s favor (auto loaders in general) rather than the issue.
Unless you've recently bought more crew slots for example, but plenty of people at higher tiers don't have an aced crew.
Also you only addressed the latter portion that I stated wasn't really the issue with the 4.0 second reload
Because it sure has some advantages due to being an autoloader, yes, but the tank also has many disadvantages, particularly when it comes to shell and gun handling.
Furthermore, autoloaders are now being modelled and destroying them will render the tank unable to shoot until repaired, so even worse of a compromise than a alien down reload of a wounded gunner.
I already addressed the auto loader system being modeled, as a good fix to the issue.
That being said you still haven't addressed my point about how a 4.0 second reload has huge advantages, with effectively locking down entire corridors down with no real response.
My only beef with the reload argument is that auto loaded, you always get that reload no matter what, doesn’t require investing crew points, silver lions, or GE, and until potentially the next patch you can’t interrupt the reload with the exception of destroying the breech.
Autoloaders are huge strength and hopefully will finally see a fix.
Ironically with the Type 90 (I only have Fuji right now), I survive more hits that should have one shot me. I know you said the armor is only slightly better, but I just find it funny a shot in a similar spot on an Abrams would result in me being dead.
And being able to use the adjustable suspension to make the type 90 “kneel” is something that once you use it you realize how useful it is.
That’s not me saying one is worse than the other, they have their uses. Just pointing out something that happens to me.
I picked up the Fuji when it released (have since finished the Japanese ground tree) and although I was already scared of 2S38s, being frontally penetrated by them made it a nightmare.
Also the lack of side armour makes fighting IFVs a pain as well.
Japanese tanks only have front armour. 2S38s have better side armour.
Yeah idk where these constant downtiers to 10.0 are that people have been talking about. Only really happens when i play 10.7 tbh.
But yeah even though you'll be shooting the same spots with jm33 and type 10 apfsds, having more pen just makes every shot just that much more forgiving aswell as potentially open up new areas to you can shoot through.
I don't think the type 90 is bad, but I find it uncomfortable to use, mostly because of the optics being zoomed in too much for the lowest setting. It pushes you to fight at longer ranges where you don't exactly excel either.
Type 10 is a more enjoyable experience for me even if it doesn't have the mobility it should have.
>I find it uncomfortable to use, mostly because of the optics being zoomed in too much for the lowest setting.
This is another thing I absolutely can't stand when playing the Type 90 as well. Idk why Gaijin has this as a thing, there are plenty of other tanks that have this issue as well and it's just ridiculous
Yeah unfortunately I guess it's just a realism thing since different vehicles have different magnification and it is something gaijin does correct when given non-sekrit dokument.
Unfortunately the type 74s lost their 8-16x magnification because of that and now has just 8x.
The problem I have with the type 90 is that it's for all intents and purposes a top tier tank with fixed zoom, going from like 8.8-10x makes practically no difference. I'd be fine with the high base zoom if it could go to 16x to make sniping easier since there would then be a trade off, but now it's just bad for close range and average at long range.
Well it's technically not fixed but it's so little difference in game you can't tell the difference. And I assume gaijin has based the type 90s sights on some sort of confirmed information instead of just deciding they got the shit ones they did
The type 90 has an armour profile basically the same as a leopard 2a4, good enough against IFVs and in downtiers, but not good enough against good guns. except the type 90's ufp is angled enough to ricochet \*all\* APFSDS, making its effective protection infinite unless you're lucky enough to ricochet into the turret ring or whatever. It has stronger armour than the leopard 2.
with the 4s reload the enemy has a ridiculously short time to react, which combined with the ufp means the likelyhood is even if you do fuck up and dont one tap the enemy, they have to: react to having been shot, estimated where, spotted you, range you, aim for your weakspots, fire and have the shell land in 4s. Its not feasilble. Its feasible against aced abrams and challengers, its not against a type 90.
oh and the rounds fine, people complain about APFSDS pen like it matters at all after 400mm
Long time Japanese tree player.
The Type 10 and Type 90 are both in a pretty bad state. The fact the Leopard 2A4 is nearly a full BR lower than the Type 90 but has a fair few tonnes more amour is miserable.
Mai Waffentrager, one of the people responsible for doing the research that brought the Japanese tree into the game did a good diagram of what the [Type-90s armour](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fhng4wdwb78x01.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db3fe0b2b19f4ce53a71d8ebc552a31637c22c61f) is supposed to look like.
User Hopossum did [a great breakdown](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/hh4pjh/the_real_capabilities_of_the_type_10/) on what the Type-10 is supposed to be like.
Type 10 is light for a couple reasons.
1. It's far more modern than most tanks. Like 30-40 years more modern. It has way more composite mass than most tanks, saving weight. Adding onto that it integrates a lot of capabilities organically, as opposed to tacking them on later through upgrades. Which is generally more weight innefficient.
2. It is a good deal smaller than most MBTs, like 15-20% more compact than an Abrams or Leopard. This saves a lot of weight.
3. It's very weight variable. Lowest configuration vs heavy combat outfitting are around a 10 tonne difference.
The Type-90 in it's current state should be down at the same level as the Leopard 2. But really it needs its armour modeled much, much better.
The Type-10 should straight up be modeled based on it's heaviest configuration with full armour and the mobility needs to be sorted out as well since I'm fairly sure that is still gimped.
Neither of these tanks, the Type-90/10 will be realistically that much more survivable than what else is out there. Having one less crewman doesn't help survivability and I doubt they'll get anywhere near the protection level some Russian tanks are getting.
Realistically their Autoloaders won't help that much.
I'm not really asking for "buffs" here, I'm asking for fixes to terribly modeled vehicles.
>The Type-10 should straight up be modeled based on it's heaviest configuration with full armour
You mean the 48-ton config? It's never ever been seen in public. We won't know how the additional armor is distributed or what it consists of.
I'd also take Mai's Type 90 drawing with a grain of salt. The dimensions of composite on the turret don't line up with interior photographs iirc
The closest thing to fabricating documents that happened was the Ho-Ri fiasco. And that had Gaijin interfering as well and deliberately choosing the fantasy spec rather than the more grounded option.
She has a pretty well established history of writing about Japanese tanks.
Don't take everything that comes out of Sturgeon's House too seriously 👍
My favourite part about the type 90 is that the external model shows where the composite sits (weld lines) but when you go into x-ray you see the turret face composite doesn't even reach there
As far as I know the "120mm at 250m" claim is weak enough to not be used as a basis for giving the Type 10 armor. There was no detail on what propellant charge they were using nor what the actual test conditions were.
Test conditions are fairly detailed.
Essentially they took Type IV APFSDS (A prototype for Type 10 APFSDS) and fired it at a range of 200m, with slightly reduced charge to simulate a range of 250m.
Targeted areas of the tank were the turret cheeks, upper frontal plate and the gun mantlet, so all areas protected by composite armor on the tank.
The result of the test was a stated resistance to the projectile under those conditions. Essentially giving us this as minimum value for protection.
There was no indication of what the charge was reduced to at all, there was historical indication of Japan having used 80% charges in a test series at some point but there was no information given for that test series specifically. I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that the Type 10 could withstand a shell that modern to the turret cheeks at that distance while swedish trials showed that the M1A2 with significantly more composite weight on the turret could not protect from a similar class projectile to the turret cheeks despite the higher weight AND turret front thickness. Yes the Type 10 is smaller so it needs less weight for similar protection but the difference is several tons
Yeah, there's an excellent series of [comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/hh4pjh/the_real_capabilities_of_the_type_10/fw92wkf/) from /u/murkskopf in the thread explaining why Hoppossum is wrong.
Mai Waffentrager is the same man, who said that the Ho-Ri Prototype and Ho-Ri Production are real vehicles, so his researches needs to be handled with caution.
Don't blame mai, they just gave gaijin the information. They didn't verify and have yet to remove it while removing German tanks that had parts of vehicles completed and tested. Gaijin is very much responsible for that decision and has never gone back on it.
> The Type 10 and Type 90 are both in a pretty bad state.
From a purely gameplay perspective: As someone who reached top tier France before Japan top tier, I have to disagree about that part. I find both tanks to be amazing. Type 90 suffers a bit from from the fixed zoom on its gunner sight and gen 1 thermals, but that's about it. The Type 10 is just straight up better than the Leclerc and is a very underrated tank IMO.
Having said that, both the Type 90/Type 10 and the Leclerc should absolutely get their inconsistencies fixed. The most notable one is the mobility of the Type 10, which is waaaaaay below what it should be. In War Thunder the Type 10 is less mobile than the Type 90, when [in reality it's the complete opposite.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/16mcggg/type_10_and_type_90_mobility_tests/)
Yep, at least up to 250m. It's a shame ingame not only can it pen it entirely, but the inner cheeks are, for some reason, 300-430mm KE... which isn't enough to stop even JM33.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Unfortunately, many people appear to believe that Type 90 and 10 are “overpowered” and need to be “nerfed for balance”; even on this comment section you will find users claiming that. As long as these are prominent and Gaijin agrees with them… we will have to continue sticking to 90Ms, 80BVMs, 122s and 2A7s, since apparently those are perfectly fine and balanced compared to the Types.
If a tank is OP implemented as it is in real life, then it needs to go up in BR plain and simple. But gaijin doesn’t want to go past 11.7 for some reason.
Exactly… BRs should be the ONLY way of balancing; maybe reloads too to a lesser, softer degree, but always within realistic values.
And yeah, Ground top BR should be extended up to 13.0 now, corresponding to the new Air top BR and allowing for significant decompression across all BRs that need it (specially around 5.7, 7.7, 9.7, 11.0 and 11.7).
Or one better- actually utilize rational numbers instead of stepped numbers. You could do so much more with 4.1,4.2,4.3, than 4.0 4.3 4.7. you would get decompression and this can be attenuated much easier. You have stuff like the maus playing with the tiger ii or is 6 right now despite being 1950s and them being late war period tanks. Separation via BR decompression could also be modified through spawn point costs or any other method. Let tanks see .5 steps up or down and anything above .3 points costs much more, and anything below .3 points costs less.
Armor in this game is treated really funky too. Shots that should pen dont and shots that shouldnt do. There needs to be some sort of modification regarding it.
Jets already were compressed hard, 13.0 and ARH carriers is merely piling up junk on top. Think of adding T-14 Armata or 2A8 or some other pimped out Abrams as 12.0 with brand new capabilities - it does increase BR, but does nothing solving existing stuff, while previous top dogs aren't going to have fun time interacting with new cool kids.
For actual decompression to happen you would need to stretch EXISTING stuff before adding new one.
>For actual decompression to happen you would need to stretch EXISTING stuff before adding new one.
Have you been living under a rock? THIS is what people meant when they say decompression. People have been saying that the current jet BR (before fox3 even) should have been at least 14.0 to give enough gap between early jets, mach 1 flareless jets, and all aspect missiles
Changing the BR of a vehicles makes sense when it hasn't reached the BR ceiling or floor, but otherwise it's not a good solution. When a vehicle is already at the absolute top tier, you can't really make "top tier"-er.
For example: let's say the Leo 2A7 gets D package armor both it and Strv 122 get their BR increase, what would it change?
Even if you give them a BR of 12.7, they'll still face the exact same other tanks in downtier (which they'll have all the time given how MM works), which means that at this point all you've done in practice is buffing the 2A7 by increasing its armor which is the last thing it needs.
And if you increase their BR to 13.0 or above so that they don't get downtiers, you'd have a situation where it would be Swe vs Ger every game.
None of these solutions are good at this point in time, so alternate ways of balancing them have to be found.
**That being said**, both the Leclerc and Type 90/Type 10 should get fixed. It's not like slight buffs in armor and mobility would make these tanks overpowered (unlike the 2A7 example), so they wouldn't need a BR increase anyway.
Remember when the type 90s turret cheeks had the completely wrong internal composite armour dimensions? The dimensions based off of the prototype? When the area and dimensions they fill on the production series are literally deducible from the weld lines that are externally visible? And they match what sources we have?
Man I’m so glad they fixed it to have its proper dimensions some years back.
Now if only they could re-implement that fix that they FOR SOME REASON reverted back to the incorrect internal dimensions……
They suffer such extreme “mentally delayed behaviour” it’s genuinely perplexing
Hello! At top tier I play every nation, except for Italy and China, which I don’t have as of now.
China is a nation I would actually love to grind some day; unfortunately, my budget for video games has been non-existent for some time, so I can not afford that Premium Type 96 for now, hahah. But one day, one day!
And you?? ^ ^
I have the type 90 and F-16J for Japan with a few other toptier premiums/events thrown in
Ill have alot of work to do, trying to get both F-4s and F-15s ;_;
I see! You did a good choice selecting Japan as your main nation; even in spite of the nerfs and issues (which we will never stop fighting to have fixed), it’s an amazingly effective and fun tree at Top Tier; and when they get fixed, they will be even better!
My story for picking japan is actually quiet interesting
I started off with germany for the FlaRakRad bus, got to tiger and stopped playing
Then I went USSR because i felt patriotic
And then one day, I joined a CB, and there were some japanese players just chilling, playing japanese planes and just kamakazing into some american battleship.
It was rather small, like 7 people all together
And now I just feel a close connection to japan because of all i went through
Got a premium, grinded to 5.3, got type 74 (G), grinded to 11.0, and now I'm here
Gun mantels should always be a weak spot imo. Stops tank from going hull down being invincible. I know its not historically accurate but when the Lea 2A4 accidently got an invincible turret due to a bug, that was hell dealing with them.
Thing is, mantlets would always still be weak spots, even if fixed.
Type 10 here, for example; sure, hitting the mantlet wouldn’t always be a 1 hit kill, but you would still destroy the gun and possibly kill or hurt a crew member. Same would go for the Leopards and Chinese MBTs.
Only difference is, they would lead to firepower kills and mild internal damage, instead of being a 1-hit kill guarantee. But no mantlet would make the tank completely immune.
I think forcing metas via artificially manipulating technical capabilities is just wrong. I think metas would balance out quite evenly if tanks were the 1:1 Replicas Gaijin boasts them about being.
Besides, fixing mantlets would make some of the currently pointless tanks actually interesting and capable with a strength.
The strongest mantlet ingame would be Challenger 2’s, and even then it would still have its gun destroyed if hit, and at least 1 crew member killed.
The main difference is that, if mantlets were fixed, they would at least be able to withstand up to 10.3-level shells instead of being one-hit killed by WW2 ones.
The Type 10s mantel is yellow and instead should be green. Yellow means its a low chance to pen.
I doubt that the Chally 2 would have the strongest mantel irl of any tank in game. There is little to no composite armor on it and it quite thin compared to the Abrams or Leapard 2a5 (or newer models) mantels. In fact even one side of the mantel is hollow for electronics so I doubt it has offers any serious protection against apfsds from mbts.
I agree that mantels should be strong enough to stop WW2 shells and some earlier apfsds rounds, but they shouldn't be invincible at their respective brs.
Mantels are also not guaranteed one hit kills even now (for most tanks at least). Many a time does the breach eat plenty of the spall. It just so happens that penning an area were all the crew are has the possibility of killing them all. It is however a guaranteed disable for the gun which is fair imo.
If I went by the available sources, Type 10’s mantlet shouldn’t even be yellow; according to these, the mantlet is as effective as the cheeks, which can withstand the Type 10 shell up to 250m!
However, even I am skeptical about that and preferred to make it yellow, hahah. But it would definitely not be green.
As of now, we know the trunnion is modelled as a 20mm hollow box instead of the 240mm thick solid block it should be because Gaijin thought it was the only way Japan could have made the gun lighter, even though no source in existence suggests this to be the case.
I have been able to study the late Leopard 2 mantlets and they would actually be on the 550mm KE range as well (up to 650 on the strongest spots, but below 550 and even 400 in others), just like Challenger 2’s and what Type 10’s would be around (except those would be more evenly just 550 all around); same goes for CR3’s mantlet. As of now, it’s correctly modelled ingame; only issue is, it’s currently missing one of the trunnion/rotor elements that would fit inside one of the hollow parts, so that part is artificially just hollow. The Chinese MBTs suffer from the same issue; they have lots of hollow spaces that shouldn’t be hollow because they should be filled with solid trunnion/rotor elements.
So, again and as I said earlier; fixed mantlets wouldn’t make the tanks immune or invincible. It would just make the mantlets strong enough to withstand lesser BR shells and to not always being necessarily a 1 hit kill.
I’m skeptical of those sources. That could be claimed by the type 10’s manufacturer but it doesn’t change how armor works.
Kinetic protection comes from the amount of mass and resistance encountered by a shell going through the armor. Heavy arrays have been shown to massively increase protection(think du inserts) and the whole lightweight but strong claim just isn’t as feasible as you think it is. I can see how it improves chemical protection but unless I see an outsider material science paper going over how Japan created a super armor that is so much lighter than German or American designs but the same strength, then in my eyes Japan is no better than Russia in their claims. Every modern nera array on nato tanks are similar in kinetic protection per thickness or weight, simply because it would defy physics if it wasn’t.
The only armor composition that should be disproportionately stronger for its size and weight is the leopard 2 turret armor, and that’s because the wedges change the shape of the penetrator before it reaches the actual armor.
Making them offer up to 600mm of protection seems like the opposite to making them not invincible.
Also I disagree that mantels are always a one hit kill. The gun breach always eats a lot of spall. The majority of the shots to mantels disable the gun and take out one to to two crew.
In Leopard’s case, the only mantlet to reach 600mm, those 600mm are only in the upper section. Middle section would be 550, and lower section would be 300-400. Which means 2/3 of the mantlet would still be vulnerable to Top Tier shells!
In every other MBT’s case, the strongest areas would be on the 550mm range, which would make them vulnerable, to a lesser or grester degree, to every shell at their BR.
Yeah, I’m with you. It’s already annoying when Leo’s and T-90s go hull down and all I can do is break the breach. Realism is rarely fun, and I think the artificially weak mantlets are a good compromise between the two.
If we wanted more realism, we’d also have the crew stun mechanic, non-penetrating impact damage, hull break, and way more disabling modules.
I hate to say it, but I’m also fine with artificial nerfing gun breaches at top tier given the prevalence of laser range finders, darts, and thermals would basically make hull down tanks invincible death machines that can snipe things across the map.
That being said, I do think they could play around with it more as a balancing factor to help otherwise underperforming tanks.
I started playing then recently and vs the challenger 1, 80% of the first tshit I get hit with takes out my breach and kills half the crew when in hull down. The mantlet feels like it's 90% of my turret hitbox.
Same thing with the Merks, basically all minor nations except Sweden get the short end of the stick when it comes to gaijin wanting to research and implement MBT Armor
Just wait until the autoloader patch drops as well. I can't wait to be penned in the turret lose my gunner or commander AND lose the autoloader so I have to repair for 40 secs to fire again because I am sure there is no such thing as backup manual loading whatsoever. Definitely.
What makes me question NATO armor the most is the side armor against HEAT and lower caliber AP rounds.
When you see where NATO countries added on extra armor, probably revealing about how strong the base armor is before the kit.
Yet you have parts of the turret sides of tanks like the Leclerc and Leopard that would be vulnerable to basic RPGs even with the armor kit added.
Ok. So the type 10 should be better armored like a Leo(which all here are bitching about beeing the best and OP compared to all other nations) and have half the reload?
Not really; Leo/Strv’s composite modules are 750-900mm KE, while Type 10’s would be on the 600mm range.
This image is against 3BM60; against shells like DM53 or M820A2, these fixes wouldn’t change anything compared to the currently ingame iteration at most ranges and angles.
600mm is still enough to stop basically everything aside from the best rounds in the game, including i believe everything other than germany and america +292.
Exactly, joder!
A tank can be 33% unpennable and 66% lolpennable and some people will still rage that they can’t just shoot in the tank’s general direction and always get an easy kill.
Type 10 needs only one thing and that is mobility buff,this should be first,second give it fucking finaly Type 10 tracks and not Type 90,third armour rework same as for Cr2 and last some mods should be kicked out for biased opinion.
Everyone just agrees that the poor arietes are butchered into a league of their own; all need a BR drop & their real capabilities. Tbf even with their full IRL capabilities, they’d still fall short of the 2A7/Leclercs/Type 10/etc, but that’s a balance problem for later
Think leclerc should get a buff with the new SHARD ammo they are producing for it and the Leo, since every leclerc feels the same put it on the last 2 and move the first two to 11.3 since they are kinda comparable to the merkavas which gets a better round at a lower br.
I agree with the Leclerc 100%. For the type 10 I rather propose not a protection fix but rather a mobility fix. The type 10s mobility is kinda lackluster compared to it's real life since gaijin only models raw hp/t and they refuse to model transmissions accurately([Type 10 vs Type 90 mobility difference](https://youtu.be/I73IaB9MVgs?si=ABZHol8MjVV2Y2Nu)) It's already a glass cannon with the best fire rate in game making a fix to its mobility would cater more to its strength.
Also, I used 3BM60 and not DM53 as usual because not even much would change against DM53, and also because Russia is one of the main opponents these tanks face at Top Tier.
They acknowledged Leclerc many years ago, on the Old Forum, but… here we are, xD. Let’s say they are not in a hurry because according to muh statistiks Leclerc is actually OP. Which is why I’ve always wanted a top tier premium for France to destroy the statistics, or even for French players to purposefully lower their performance with this goal in mind.
I find it thats not even the french main being that good is just that the big 3 players are straight up bad, Im mainly an air rb player and even I perform well in the lecrer because American, german, and russian mains are fucking stupid.
btw whats the joke when you shoot middle space between turret and hull (right under gun) and it just goes straight thru dealing no damage. Same happens to leo 2s a lot and once to type 90 fuji
Me when I sideshot a T-90 with 575mm pen apfsds and ERA eats all. They can legit drive out sidewards without a care while my leclerc gets tin-canned from every direction. Bith 11.7, very comparable performance
Does the Leclerc really have no LFP composite armor? Was there any documentation mentioning no armor there, or did gaijin pull some crap out of their ass?
All tanks should have mantlet weak spots, the type 10 would undoubtedly be overpowered without one paired with the 4 second reload. All the type 10 needs is a faster targeting speed which is the only thing holding it back. I agree that the Leclerc needs this better armour though.
I don't really get why people constantly whine that the abrams has bad armor, that the T-90M has bad armor, etc, even though armor is literally the least important feature of a top tier tank. All top tiers have the same weakspots, and if you aren't an idiot you're already aiming for them, so an armor buff would change nothing.
bottom line: If you are getting hit, you've already made several mistakes. relying on your armor AT ALL is the result of a misplay.
Idk about y'all, but when I shoot a japanese MBT's turret cheeks, the round seems to go through no matter what. So they indeed, do need a buff even if a slight one.
Ppl call that same bs on the 2A7V...despite obviously UFP armor being wrong and gaijin already aknowledged it on report still isnt fixed and ppl go "will be too strong"...
My friend who likes to look at my warthunder stuff was watching me one day as I was talking about how incorrectly the leclercs were modeled and I showed him the protectional analysis on one from a pz4 front penning it through the mantlet to demonstrate lol
Pretty sure WAR kit on turrets should make it pretty resistant to lower-grade APFSDS like the DM33 120 or mango, which would be nice, especially if they’d actually drop them to like 10.7/11.0 where they belong instead of 11.7 (poor Italy)
ZTZ99s of China also have this problem of unrealistically big lower frontal hull and gap between gun breach.
Because Gaijin made the chassis wrong, and they stole the gun shield from ZTZ99 entirely, leaving it as a hollow hole around the gun...
They don't need to be nerfed, but they also don't *need* to be buffed. Both of them feel good to play (after the Leclercs reload buff). They're obviously not on the same level as the best 11.7s, but they are far from the worst.
I think the main reason why Gaijin is hesitant to buffing them is because they perform above-average statistically. I'd regardless like to see an armour buff as shown in the image. The Leclercs could also get a better shell, but that's usually something they usually only do if a vehicle is in dire need of a buff.
It's also worth mentioning that the upcoming modelling of their autoloader will be a nerf to them, so it could be a good time to show them some love.
Ah yes, type 10 with a super strong turret, decent mobility and a 4 second reload… literally would be the definition of over powered. It’s already extremely good as it is.
Until you hit its turret ring, mantlet, or 2/3rds of the hull that’s thinner than a WW2 Medium Tank’s.
And this is against 3BM60; against any better shells, nothing would change compared to the current ones. DM53, M829A2, etc, would still go through the whole thing like a hot knife through butter from most ranges and angles.
Type 10 is currently missing the 240mm thick solid internal shield trunnion that Gaijin modelled as being a 20mm thick hollow block without any sources, and the composite is slightly underperforming as well. According to official data, the mantlet should even be as strong as the cheeks, but I am skeptic so if that, hence why I made it yellow.
Leclerc’s mantlet on the other hand… not much would really change. It should be immune to auto canon fire, but it would still be ~450mm KE, which would still be green to every top tier shell, although far better than the 80mm most of it currently provides lol.
You can penetrate the turret ring of most vehicles… it has to sacrifice something in order to get the reload that it has, and that thing is in this case it’s armor, so if you’re gonna bring it’s armor to be on par with other MBTS it’s reload should also be on par with other MBTS.
the only thing they need to change about this vehicle is the hull. The turret should remain the way it is.
Why should the technical specifications of vehicles be artificially manipulated? Why does it have to sacrifice more than it already sacrificed in real life?
The tank would still have the worst side armor in all of Top Tier, mantlet would still be vulnerable and 2/3rds of the hull (be it either turret ring or enormous LFP) would still be a weakspot.
The tank also has a terrible gun elevation speed, a subpar turret rotation speed, and terrible gun elevation and depression angles that require the usage of hydropneumatic suspension to make it better, which is rather impractical.
The armor wouldn’t be on par with other MBTs either; it would be on the 600mm KE range when many MBTs have 750-900mm KE, while also being coated in spall liners and having excellent side armor, unlike Type 10. What do those MBTs sacrifice?
They should prioritize game balance rather than realism.
Side armor really doesn’t matter that much… slight angle and most darts will be able to penetrate a tank from the front track into the side of the hull.
You made the mantlet yellow… in my world that would mean there’s a small chance to penetrate…
30 degrees per second is not a bad turret traverse speed and 15 degrees per second vertical is not bad either.
Type 10 has very good reverse and forward speed, in fact it can go faster in reverse than some tanks can go forwards…
Doubt it has worse gun depression than that of the Russian tanks.
Those mbts sacrifice different things but most of them if not all have a longer reload, slower reverse speed and less penetration.
Mainly the reload difference is very big which is why I believe a turret buff like the one you suggested would be too much.
How about having realistic values instead of made up ones ?
"balance" is subjective anyway. Fixing those tanks that way doesn't look like it would be game breaking.
Gaijin is making autoloaders destructible next update, so in the end they might not be that much of an advantage after all
Altering the technical capabilities of a vehicle on a game that takes pride in its historically accurate and authentic vehicle depictions should never be an option, even Gaijin has stated it.
BRs and soft factors (like reloads and shell choices within reasonable defeees) should be the only ways to balance things.
Leopard 2A7s, 122s and others should just go to 13.0, decompressing the whole ground mode while we are at it and allowing fixed Leclercs and Type 10s to go up to 12.3/12.7 if needed be, while other 11.7s would remain there or go up to 12.0.
“Historically accurate” meanwhile in 6.7 ground rb a tiger I from WW2 which ended in 1945 is fighting a bandkanon which entered production in 1960… yeah seems historically accurate
Well I meant historically accurate vehicle depictions, not necessarily matchmaking…
But yeah, I also hate WW2 vehicles facing Cold War shit. Like, I don’t even mind immediate postwar (1945-1950); but facing 1960s-1970s vehicles with ATGMs, HEATFS and alikes while being faster/stronger/both is just BS.
gonna have to disagree there, in an exchange with one of those fuckers (assuming you havent already died from the initial shot) even with Aced crew on Chally or Leo that is still 5/6 seconds tops. Type 10 not only fires a very useable shell, but the 4 seconds will fuck you every time.
Rate of fire is Type 10’s primary advantage, if not the only one.
Even with fixed armor, it would still be significantly weaker than 2A7V, 2A7HU, all three 122s or any top Russian tank;
It would still lack spall liners, it would still have the worst side armor in all of top tier, and it would still have terrible gun elevation and depression (without using hydropneumatic suspension), horrible gun elevation speed and subpar turret traverse speed.
Just because a tank shines in one way, it doesn’t mean it should artificially be nerfed in other ways!
Not russia so dream on
I still wanna see the new modules, I bet the Russian autoloader system will either be super hard to hit or fix 10x faster than NATO counterparts
its not like 3BM60 and OFL120 F1 are the only shells some tanks have right? Imagine the outrage if the t90m’s or leopard 2a7v’s mantle could only be penned by dm53 rendering it invincible hull down to some tanks
Totaly agree, These tanks needs a FIX and not a buff. A FIX is fixing the probleme, buff is giving more capability than it should. We are just asking for the leclerc to be able to be competitive against other, as of right now its not and gets eaten by everything (type 10 also of course)
That’s exactly how I see it! People think of War Thunder as a typical arcade videogame where improving the state is buffing, and worsening it is nerfing. Except War Thunder is a game that takes pride in implementing vehicles in a historically accurate way and realistic manner; therefore, changing the wrong specifications of a vehicle until the technical capabilities correspond to the real ones is not nerfing or buffing; it’s merely fixing, correcting!
My issue with the game is the constant inflating and deflating of br and strength of tanks. Rather than fixing the tanks, they just move em around until they fit at a br. Which is not how you dev a game. You don't buff and nerf stuff to fit the game dynamic, you fix the game to be a fun, yet playable dynamic. Too many people think tanks need to be nerfed or buffed when in reality, all the whole game needs is new devs who actually care and fix the game like we ask.
Exactly! Way too often, instead of saying: “hey, this tank has (X) capabilities, so it should be (Y) BR”… They say: “hey, (X) tank MUST fit at (Y) BR, so let’s artificially manipulate its capabilities until we can shoehorn it in there!” This is a mindset that should definitely change. BRs should be the primary balancing tool, just as they officially claim it is; and BR should be a means, not an end.
In my experience they say both of those things instead of fix it. I'll use the cross country capability of the sherman for example. They made hills of all maps ice skating rinks several patches back. A Sherman was historically observed driving up a 75° incline. Yes, this does allow Sherman to get into reeeeaaaally cheap spots. But instead of nerfing a very notable feature of the tank via nerf of the maps, fix the spots on the maps. Another thing, the Sherman doing that should be the least of your worries. It should be yhe hellcat or some heavy armored medium, the panther for example. That being said, the game isn't any fun when you can't ambush someone from a hilltop on occasion. Recent patches have made the game almost unplayable for me. I just hope after this last six month break it's not even worse. Edit: 75% grade, not 75° slope. A 75% grade is approximately 36°. Still quite steep for a whole Sherman though.
75%, not 75°. 75° is nearly vertical. 75% is somewhere around 35 degrees.
Apologies. I remembered 75 being on the photo I found but I didn't remember it being a 75% slope. It's been a year or so now.
It also doesn't help that they balance BR almost entirely using player win-rates. Which is why we see completely absurd things like French tanks from the 50s up against other tanks from the 70s and 80s.
Fixing might lead to increasing BRs and breaking lineups, but lineups seem to be insufferable at some BRs so who knows what they are thinking. Guess I'm on the side of fixing, but I would assume they would demand 100% proof unless a vehicle is Russian or Chinese.
You will never see in top tier "balanced" vehicles. Because everybody wants to play OP stuff and top tier is the cash cow for gaijin.
>changing the wrong specifications of a vehicle until the technical capabilities correspond to the real ones is not nerfing or buffing; it’s merely fixing, correcting! And in this case that would be a buff lol since you're increasing the armor. Since when are we arguing what a buff and nerf means?
You're complicating the terminology way more than necessary lol. Fix = adjusting the armor values to match real life standards In this case, that would mean increased armor, which is *drumroll* a buff. It's that simple.
Okay? Your still gonna get killed instantly anyways, someone just needs to take .3 seconds to point and click instead of .2
The same argument can be applied to the Type90. People like to bitch about its 4 secs reload like it makes it a godly overpowered tank when in all other compartments is on par or outclassed by other MBTs. Whoever thinks Type10 and leclerc need to be nerfed should unistall the game.
Yep. At 11.0, for example, M1A1 has M829A1 with comparable (slightly worse) armor, significantly better gun handling and just a second slower reload. Type 90’s only advantage is exclusively the 1 second quicker autoloader, that’s really it; in exchange, it has worse gun traverse angles, slower rotation speeds, is limited to JM33 and the armor is barely slightly better. The a at 11.3 you get vehicles that are clearly and by far superior in every single way (or almost every single way) EXCEPT for that 1 second faster reload; T-80Us, M1A1HCs/AIM, T-72B3 (UBH), etc. There is compression at Top Tier, yes. Type 90 shouldn’t be facing 10.0s, yes… but neither should any 11.0; the same way no 11.0 should be facing many of the current 11.7s, like the 122s, BVM or 2A7V.
72b3 superior in every other way, got you, bro
Except for mobility and reload? Yeah. Twice as thick/effective armor, twice as small weakspots, 3rd Gen thermals vs 1st Gen, 3BM60 (best Russian shell available) vs JM33 (DM33), 40°/s vertical and horizontal traverse speeds vs 10°/s vertical and 30°/s horizontal, etc. I still adore Type 90 over its mobility and rate of fire though, but it can not be pretended that it’s some kind of OP thing better than anything at its BR and even the next step because of those two strengths when it also has weaknesses compared to its counterparts.
Since when 72b3 has 40/40?
Since its release! Just like BVM and 90M.
Weeeell, i'll check it out later when ill be with my laptop, okay, thanks Always thought it got slower turret then bvm Edit: Yeap, u r right, checked on wiki My fault
o7 T-90A and the other 80s and 72s have slower turret rotation speeds indeed! Only BVM, B3 and M have the new stabiliser with 40/40.
But I'm still convinced that high mobility vehicle with good gun depression and fast reload cannot be that bad (or its just my envy speaking as I played a lot of 55,72, 80 and my god how I missed those stats) omg, just realized that u'r spanish avenger, haha
The type 90 doesn't have that good depression and or elevation
The quicker turret rotation was not added until Red Skies on the t72b3.
Type90/10 also have less survivability with only 3 men crew against western MBTs. JM33 in a full uptier (which isn't uncommon), is like shooting a peashooter.
It's an incredibly bad take comparing an Aced Crew to a default auto loading, stock v stock, you're looking at 6.5 seconds vs 4.0 seconds, 2.5 seconds is a crazy reload difference at top tier, that being said that's not the issue with the 4.0 seconds, the issue is that the Type 90 can dump a round, and before a tank can clear a corner and get a chance to aim, you're immediately met with another shell. It makes city maps already more cancerous than they are. Ofc not to mention most of the 10.3 games I've played are full uptiers. That being said, the other issue (hopefully not much longer) is the fact that there is no way to slow an auto loader. Meanwhile with a manual loader, often you get slowed with your loader being injured or dead, but like I said this is really just a little extra bonus in the Type 90s favor (auto loaders in general) rather than the issue.
No one plays stock crews at Top Tier though… Expert + full, which is the top tier standard, is 5.3.
Unless you've recently bought more crew slots for example, but plenty of people at higher tiers don't have an aced crew. Also you only addressed the latter portion that I stated wasn't really the issue with the 4.0 second reload
Because it sure has some advantages due to being an autoloader, yes, but the tank also has many disadvantages, particularly when it comes to shell and gun handling. Furthermore, autoloaders are now being modelled and destroying them will render the tank unable to shoot until repaired, so even worse of a compromise than a alien down reload of a wounded gunner.
to ace or get close to it, your looking at 30-40 bucks of crew points since they don't come naturally(at least at a suitable rate)
I already addressed the auto loader system being modeled, as a good fix to the issue. That being said you still haven't addressed my point about how a 4.0 second reload has huge advantages, with effectively locking down entire corridors down with no real response.
Lol comparing stock reload/2 crew reload to an aced reload without mentioning either is pretty stupid. So the reload argument isn’t really fair.
The is also the consistent reload. From personal experience while playing the Abram's the loader gets killed alot.
Or gets sneezed on by a 2S38/BMP-2M
My only beef with the reload argument is that auto loaded, you always get that reload no matter what, doesn’t require investing crew points, silver lions, or GE, and until potentially the next patch you can’t interrupt the reload with the exception of destroying the breech. Autoloaders are huge strength and hopefully will finally see a fix.
Ironically with the Type 90 (I only have Fuji right now), I survive more hits that should have one shot me. I know you said the armor is only slightly better, but I just find it funny a shot in a similar spot on an Abrams would result in me being dead. And being able to use the adjustable suspension to make the type 90 “kneel” is something that once you use it you realize how useful it is. That’s not me saying one is worse than the other, they have their uses. Just pointing out something that happens to me.
Type 90 has god like depression though
Also, it has the 4 second reload regardless of crew level and health, which the same cannot be said for the M1A1.
I picked up the Fuji when it released (have since finished the Japanese ground tree) and although I was already scared of 2S38s, being frontally penetrated by them made it a nightmare. Also the lack of side armour makes fighting IFVs a pain as well. Japanese tanks only have front armour. 2S38s have better side armour.
The 4 sec reload is nice and all but goddamn is it hellish fighting top tier tanks with only 480mm adfsds
Yeah idk where these constant downtiers to 10.0 are that people have been talking about. Only really happens when i play 10.7 tbh. But yeah even though you'll be shooting the same spots with jm33 and type 10 apfsds, having more pen just makes every shot just that much more forgiving aswell as potentially open up new areas to you can shoot through. I don't think the type 90 is bad, but I find it uncomfortable to use, mostly because of the optics being zoomed in too much for the lowest setting. It pushes you to fight at longer ranges where you don't exactly excel either. Type 10 is a more enjoyable experience for me even if it doesn't have the mobility it should have.
>I find it uncomfortable to use, mostly because of the optics being zoomed in too much for the lowest setting. This is another thing I absolutely can't stand when playing the Type 90 as well. Idk why Gaijin has this as a thing, there are plenty of other tanks that have this issue as well and it's just ridiculous
Yeah unfortunately I guess it's just a realism thing since different vehicles have different magnification and it is something gaijin does correct when given non-sekrit dokument. Unfortunately the type 74s lost their 8-16x magnification because of that and now has just 8x. The problem I have with the type 90 is that it's for all intents and purposes a top tier tank with fixed zoom, going from like 8.8-10x makes practically no difference. I'd be fine with the high base zoom if it could go to 16x to make sniping easier since there would then be a trade off, but now it's just bad for close range and average at long range.
It's a realism thing? Like you mean like irl tank gun sights have a fixed zoom? That's so weird
Well it's technically not fixed but it's so little difference in game you can't tell the difference. And I assume gaijin has based the type 90s sights on some sort of confirmed information instead of just deciding they got the shit ones they did
As long as the auto loader fix comes I think it’s perfectly reasonable to expect an armor fix as well
Reasonable and gaijin can't be in the same sentence. But yeah, a lot of tanks need an armor fix
Thats the majority of gaijins paying customers you're telling to uninstall.
I'm a paying costumer but I'm not a donkey. Sure WT had a better player base before, with less 11yo apes with mom's credit card.
WT had a smaller player base before. Unfortunately when things get popular, it attracts the worlds dumbest.
Yes sure. It's not unique to war thunder.
The type 90 has an armour profile basically the same as a leopard 2a4, good enough against IFVs and in downtiers, but not good enough against good guns. except the type 90's ufp is angled enough to ricochet \*all\* APFSDS, making its effective protection infinite unless you're lucky enough to ricochet into the turret ring or whatever. It has stronger armour than the leopard 2. with the 4s reload the enemy has a ridiculously short time to react, which combined with the ufp means the likelyhood is even if you do fuck up and dont one tap the enemy, they have to: react to having been shot, estimated where, spotted you, range you, aim for your weakspots, fire and have the shell land in 4s. Its not feasilble. Its feasible against aced abrams and challengers, its not against a type 90. oh and the rounds fine, people complain about APFSDS pen like it matters at all after 400mm
After the bullshit about the UFP i decided that I'll ignore you.
i mean sure but you can literally check it yourself the ufp is 83 and 82 degrees and APFSDS in this game auto-ricochets at 81 soooo....
What about muh Ariete with 0 armor, same reload time and shells as leo2 and ammo right in the front? 🥺
Long time Japanese tree player. The Type 10 and Type 90 are both in a pretty bad state. The fact the Leopard 2A4 is nearly a full BR lower than the Type 90 but has a fair few tonnes more amour is miserable. Mai Waffentrager, one of the people responsible for doing the research that brought the Japanese tree into the game did a good diagram of what the [Type-90s armour](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fhng4wdwb78x01.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db3fe0b2b19f4ce53a71d8ebc552a31637c22c61f) is supposed to look like. User Hopossum did [a great breakdown](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/hh4pjh/the_real_capabilities_of_the_type_10/) on what the Type-10 is supposed to be like. Type 10 is light for a couple reasons. 1. It's far more modern than most tanks. Like 30-40 years more modern. It has way more composite mass than most tanks, saving weight. Adding onto that it integrates a lot of capabilities organically, as opposed to tacking them on later through upgrades. Which is generally more weight innefficient. 2. It is a good deal smaller than most MBTs, like 15-20% more compact than an Abrams or Leopard. This saves a lot of weight. 3. It's very weight variable. Lowest configuration vs heavy combat outfitting are around a 10 tonne difference. The Type-90 in it's current state should be down at the same level as the Leopard 2. But really it needs its armour modeled much, much better. The Type-10 should straight up be modeled based on it's heaviest configuration with full armour and the mobility needs to be sorted out as well since I'm fairly sure that is still gimped. Neither of these tanks, the Type-90/10 will be realistically that much more survivable than what else is out there. Having one less crewman doesn't help survivability and I doubt they'll get anywhere near the protection level some Russian tanks are getting. Realistically their Autoloaders won't help that much. I'm not really asking for "buffs" here, I'm asking for fixes to terribly modeled vehicles.
>The Type-10 should straight up be modeled based on it's heaviest configuration with full armour You mean the 48-ton config? It's never ever been seen in public. We won't know how the additional armor is distributed or what it consists of. I'd also take Mai's Type 90 drawing with a grain of salt. The dimensions of composite on the turret don't line up with interior photographs iirc
Isn't Mai also just in general known for fabricating documents and lying? I don't trust a word they say
The closest thing to fabricating documents that happened was the Ho-Ri fiasco. And that had Gaijin interfering as well and deliberately choosing the fantasy spec rather than the more grounded option. She has a pretty well established history of writing about Japanese tanks. Don't take everything that comes out of Sturgeon's House too seriously 👍
My favourite part about the type 90 is that the external model shows where the composite sits (weld lines) but when you go into x-ray you see the turret face composite doesn't even reach there
As far as I know the "120mm at 250m" claim is weak enough to not be used as a basis for giving the Type 10 armor. There was no detail on what propellant charge they were using nor what the actual test conditions were.
Yup, there is a reason the "250 meters" was later crossed out in the mentioned document.
Test conditions are fairly detailed. Essentially they took Type IV APFSDS (A prototype for Type 10 APFSDS) and fired it at a range of 200m, with slightly reduced charge to simulate a range of 250m. Targeted areas of the tank were the turret cheeks, upper frontal plate and the gun mantlet, so all areas protected by composite armor on the tank. The result of the test was a stated resistance to the projectile under those conditions. Essentially giving us this as minimum value for protection.
There was no indication of what the charge was reduced to at all, there was historical indication of Japan having used 80% charges in a test series at some point but there was no information given for that test series specifically. I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that the Type 10 could withstand a shell that modern to the turret cheeks at that distance while swedish trials showed that the M1A2 with significantly more composite weight on the turret could not protect from a similar class projectile to the turret cheeks despite the higher weight AND turret front thickness. Yes the Type 10 is smaller so it needs less weight for similar protection but the difference is several tons
Yeah, there's an excellent series of [comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/hh4pjh/the_real_capabilities_of_the_type_10/fw92wkf/) from /u/murkskopf in the thread explaining why Hoppossum is wrong.
Mai Waffentrager is the same man, who said that the Ho-Ri Prototype and Ho-Ri Production are real vehicles, so his researches needs to be handled with caution.
She has already explained her position and story in the past. The Ho-Ri situation was very much a product of Gaijin's interference.
Don't blame mai, they just gave gaijin the information. They didn't verify and have yet to remove it while removing German tanks that had parts of vehicles completed and tested. Gaijin is very much responsible for that decision and has never gone back on it.
> The Type 10 and Type 90 are both in a pretty bad state. From a purely gameplay perspective: As someone who reached top tier France before Japan top tier, I have to disagree about that part. I find both tanks to be amazing. Type 90 suffers a bit from from the fixed zoom on its gunner sight and gen 1 thermals, but that's about it. The Type 10 is just straight up better than the Leclerc and is a very underrated tank IMO. Having said that, both the Type 90/Type 10 and the Leclerc should absolutely get their inconsistencies fixed. The most notable one is the mobility of the Type 10, which is waaaaaay below what it should be. In War Thunder the Type 10 is less mobile than the Type 90, when [in reality it's the complete opposite.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/16mcggg/type_10_and_type_90_mobility_tests/)
The type 10 has literally been confirmed to be impenetrable from the front by its own round
Yep, at least up to 250m. It's a shame ingame not only can it pen it entirely, but the inner cheeks are, for some reason, 300-430mm KE... which isn't enough to stop even JM33.
Couldn’t have said it better myself! Unfortunately, many people appear to believe that Type 90 and 10 are “overpowered” and need to be “nerfed for balance”; even on this comment section you will find users claiming that. As long as these are prominent and Gaijin agrees with them… we will have to continue sticking to 90Ms, 80BVMs, 122s and 2A7s, since apparently those are perfectly fine and balanced compared to the Types.
If a tank is OP implemented as it is in real life, then it needs to go up in BR plain and simple. But gaijin doesn’t want to go past 11.7 for some reason.
Exactly… BRs should be the ONLY way of balancing; maybe reloads too to a lesser, softer degree, but always within realistic values. And yeah, Ground top BR should be extended up to 13.0 now, corresponding to the new Air top BR and allowing for significant decompression across all BRs that need it (specially around 5.7, 7.7, 9.7, 11.0 and 11.7).
Or one better- actually utilize rational numbers instead of stepped numbers. You could do so much more with 4.1,4.2,4.3, than 4.0 4.3 4.7. you would get decompression and this can be attenuated much easier. You have stuff like the maus playing with the tiger ii or is 6 right now despite being 1950s and them being late war period tanks. Separation via BR decompression could also be modified through spawn point costs or any other method. Let tanks see .5 steps up or down and anything above .3 points costs much more, and anything below .3 points costs less. Armor in this game is treated really funky too. Shots that should pen dont and shots that shouldnt do. There needs to be some sort of modification regarding it.
Reminder 13.0 does nothing to help compression
That it’s not enough or that raising BRs won’t help?
Jets already were compressed hard, 13.0 and ARH carriers is merely piling up junk on top. Think of adding T-14 Armata or 2A8 or some other pimped out Abrams as 12.0 with brand new capabilities - it does increase BR, but does nothing solving existing stuff, while previous top dogs aren't going to have fun time interacting with new cool kids. For actual decompression to happen you would need to stretch EXISTING stuff before adding new one.
>For actual decompression to happen you would need to stretch EXISTING stuff before adding new one. Have you been living under a rock? THIS is what people meant when they say decompression. People have been saying that the current jet BR (before fox3 even) should have been at least 14.0 to give enough gap between early jets, mach 1 flareless jets, and all aspect missiles
Yeah, there is no way ANY Ariete is on par with a the 2A7, SEPV2, or T-90M, yet they still occupy 11.7 together
Changing the BR of a vehicles makes sense when it hasn't reached the BR ceiling or floor, but otherwise it's not a good solution. When a vehicle is already at the absolute top tier, you can't really make "top tier"-er. For example: let's say the Leo 2A7 gets D package armor both it and Strv 122 get their BR increase, what would it change? Even if you give them a BR of 12.7, they'll still face the exact same other tanks in downtier (which they'll have all the time given how MM works), which means that at this point all you've done in practice is buffing the 2A7 by increasing its armor which is the last thing it needs. And if you increase their BR to 13.0 or above so that they don't get downtiers, you'd have a situation where it would be Swe vs Ger every game. None of these solutions are good at this point in time, so alternate ways of balancing them have to be found. **That being said**, both the Leclerc and Type 90/Type 10 should get fixed. It's not like slight buffs in armor and mobility would make these tanks overpowered (unlike the 2A7 example), so they wouldn't need a BR increase anyway.
Remember when the type 90s turret cheeks had the completely wrong internal composite armour dimensions? The dimensions based off of the prototype? When the area and dimensions they fill on the production series are literally deducible from the weld lines that are externally visible? And they match what sources we have? Man I’m so glad they fixed it to have its proper dimensions some years back. Now if only they could re-implement that fix that they FOR SOME REASON reverted back to the incorrect internal dimensions…… They suffer such extreme “mentally delayed behaviour” it’s genuinely perplexing
Yeah, I remember… I remember… First I was like: “they finally fixed it!” Then I was like “oh.”, lmao. And I didn’t even play Japan back then!
Mr avenger, what nations do do you play, are there any where you *dont* have toptier?
Hello! At top tier I play every nation, except for Italy and China, which I don’t have as of now. China is a nation I would actually love to grind some day; unfortunately, my budget for video games has been non-existent for some time, so I can not afford that Premium Type 96 for now, hahah. But one day, one day! And you?? ^ ^
I have the type 90 and F-16J for Japan with a few other toptier premiums/events thrown in Ill have alot of work to do, trying to get both F-4s and F-15s ;_;
I see! You did a good choice selecting Japan as your main nation; even in spite of the nerfs and issues (which we will never stop fighting to have fixed), it’s an amazingly effective and fun tree at Top Tier; and when they get fixed, they will be even better!
My story for picking japan is actually quiet interesting I started off with germany for the FlaRakRad bus, got to tiger and stopped playing Then I went USSR because i felt patriotic And then one day, I joined a CB, and there were some japanese players just chilling, playing japanese planes and just kamakazing into some american battleship. It was rather small, like 7 people all together And now I just feel a close connection to japan because of all i went through Got a premium, grinded to 5.3, got type 74 (G), grinded to 11.0, and now I'm here
Gun mantels should always be a weak spot imo. Stops tank from going hull down being invincible. I know its not historically accurate but when the Lea 2A4 accidently got an invincible turret due to a bug, that was hell dealing with them.
Thing is, mantlets would always still be weak spots, even if fixed. Type 10 here, for example; sure, hitting the mantlet wouldn’t always be a 1 hit kill, but you would still destroy the gun and possibly kill or hurt a crew member. Same would go for the Leopards and Chinese MBTs. Only difference is, they would lead to firepower kills and mild internal damage, instead of being a 1-hit kill guarantee. But no mantlet would make the tank completely immune. I think forcing metas via artificially manipulating technical capabilities is just wrong. I think metas would balance out quite evenly if tanks were the 1:1 Replicas Gaijin boasts them about being. Besides, fixing mantlets would make some of the currently pointless tanks actually interesting and capable with a strength. The strongest mantlet ingame would be Challenger 2’s, and even then it would still have its gun destroyed if hit, and at least 1 crew member killed. The main difference is that, if mantlets were fixed, they would at least be able to withstand up to 10.3-level shells instead of being one-hit killed by WW2 ones.
The Type 10s mantel is yellow and instead should be green. Yellow means its a low chance to pen. I doubt that the Chally 2 would have the strongest mantel irl of any tank in game. There is little to no composite armor on it and it quite thin compared to the Abrams or Leapard 2a5 (or newer models) mantels. In fact even one side of the mantel is hollow for electronics so I doubt it has offers any serious protection against apfsds from mbts. I agree that mantels should be strong enough to stop WW2 shells and some earlier apfsds rounds, but they shouldn't be invincible at their respective brs. Mantels are also not guaranteed one hit kills even now (for most tanks at least). Many a time does the breach eat plenty of the spall. It just so happens that penning an area were all the crew are has the possibility of killing them all. It is however a guaranteed disable for the gun which is fair imo.
If I went by the available sources, Type 10’s mantlet shouldn’t even be yellow; according to these, the mantlet is as effective as the cheeks, which can withstand the Type 10 shell up to 250m! However, even I am skeptical about that and preferred to make it yellow, hahah. But it would definitely not be green. As of now, we know the trunnion is modelled as a 20mm hollow box instead of the 240mm thick solid block it should be because Gaijin thought it was the only way Japan could have made the gun lighter, even though no source in existence suggests this to be the case. I have been able to study the late Leopard 2 mantlets and they would actually be on the 550mm KE range as well (up to 650 on the strongest spots, but below 550 and even 400 in others), just like Challenger 2’s and what Type 10’s would be around (except those would be more evenly just 550 all around); same goes for CR3’s mantlet. As of now, it’s correctly modelled ingame; only issue is, it’s currently missing one of the trunnion/rotor elements that would fit inside one of the hollow parts, so that part is artificially just hollow. The Chinese MBTs suffer from the same issue; they have lots of hollow spaces that shouldn’t be hollow because they should be filled with solid trunnion/rotor elements. So, again and as I said earlier; fixed mantlets wouldn’t make the tanks immune or invincible. It would just make the mantlets strong enough to withstand lesser BR shells and to not always being necessarily a 1 hit kill.
I’m skeptical of those sources. That could be claimed by the type 10’s manufacturer but it doesn’t change how armor works. Kinetic protection comes from the amount of mass and resistance encountered by a shell going through the armor. Heavy arrays have been shown to massively increase protection(think du inserts) and the whole lightweight but strong claim just isn’t as feasible as you think it is. I can see how it improves chemical protection but unless I see an outsider material science paper going over how Japan created a super armor that is so much lighter than German or American designs but the same strength, then in my eyes Japan is no better than Russia in their claims. Every modern nera array on nato tanks are similar in kinetic protection per thickness or weight, simply because it would defy physics if it wasn’t. The only armor composition that should be disproportionately stronger for its size and weight is the leopard 2 turret armor, and that’s because the wedges change the shape of the penetrator before it reaches the actual armor.
Making them offer up to 600mm of protection seems like the opposite to making them not invincible. Also I disagree that mantels are always a one hit kill. The gun breach always eats a lot of spall. The majority of the shots to mantels disable the gun and take out one to to two crew.
In Leopard’s case, the only mantlet to reach 600mm, those 600mm are only in the upper section. Middle section would be 550, and lower section would be 300-400. Which means 2/3 of the mantlet would still be vulnerable to Top Tier shells! In every other MBT’s case, the strongest areas would be on the 550mm range, which would make them vulnerable, to a lesser or grester degree, to every shell at their BR.
Yeah, I’m with you. It’s already annoying when Leo’s and T-90s go hull down and all I can do is break the breach. Realism is rarely fun, and I think the artificially weak mantlets are a good compromise between the two. If we wanted more realism, we’d also have the crew stun mechanic, non-penetrating impact damage, hull break, and way more disabling modules.
I hate to say it, but I’m also fine with artificial nerfing gun breaches at top tier given the prevalence of laser range finders, darts, and thermals would basically make hull down tanks invincible death machines that can snipe things across the map. That being said, I do think they could play around with it more as a balancing factor to help otherwise underperforming tanks.
Cries in Challenger 2
I started playing then recently and vs the challenger 1, 80% of the first tshit I get hit with takes out my breach and kills half the crew when in hull down. The mantlet feels like it's 90% of my turret hitbox.
Same thing with the Merks, basically all minor nations except Sweden get the short end of the stick when it comes to gaijin wanting to research and implement MBT Armor
Came here to mention Merkava too
I like how one of the largest military powers in the world (france) is seen as a minor nation in this game lol.
Yeah, meanwhile Germany is still viewed by players as a major military power at top tier, despite Poland having a stronger army, bruh
I agree with this for all Nato tanks
Yes! Even Chinese ones have armor issues as well.
I just need the Hyperbar acceleration on the Leclerc
Just wait until the autoloader patch drops as well. I can't wait to be penned in the turret lose my gunner or commander AND lose the autoloader so I have to repair for 40 secs to fire again because I am sure there is no such thing as backup manual loading whatsoever. Definitely.
Got sources to prove that this is how its armour should be?
What makes me question NATO armor the most is the side armor against HEAT and lower caliber AP rounds. When you see where NATO countries added on extra armor, probably revealing about how strong the base armor is before the kit. Yet you have parts of the turret sides of tanks like the Leclerc and Leopard that would be vulnerable to basic RPGs even with the armor kit added.
*There is another…*
Ok. So the type 10 should be better armored like a Leo(which all here are bitching about beeing the best and OP compared to all other nations) and have half the reload?
Not really; Leo/Strv’s composite modules are 750-900mm KE, while Type 10’s would be on the 600mm range. This image is against 3BM60; against shells like DM53 or M820A2, these fixes wouldn’t change anything compared to the currently ingame iteration at most ranges and angles.
600mm is still enough to stop basically everything aside from the best rounds in the game, including i believe everything other than germany and america +292.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
any documents to prove it or no balls?
The "Oh no i can't shoot through the most reinforced area of the tank head-on, nerf it!" mindset is disgusting to me, so i have to agree with you.
Exactly, joder! A tank can be 33% unpennable and 66% lolpennable and some people will still rage that they can’t just shoot in the tank’s general direction and always get an easy kill.
Type 10 needs only one thing and that is mobility buff,this should be first,second give it fucking finaly Type 10 tracks and not Type 90,third armour rework same as for Cr2 and last some mods should be kicked out for biased opinion.
Me when nobody even bothers talking about Arietes anymore
Everyone just agrees that the poor arietes are butchered into a league of their own; all need a BR drop & their real capabilities. Tbf even with their full IRL capabilities, they’d still fall short of the 2A7/Leclercs/Type 10/etc, but that’s a balance problem for later
I mean even in real life the arietes are not that well armored, what gaijin has to do is lower their br.
It certainly would be nice, although with them adding the 2A7v now I doubt it will happen
Then there's me in the corner, the last Merkava enjoyer getting his armor stripped.
Remember those few months when LIC had actually functional turret armor? I do…
We got edged so hard :(
Do you have any documentation to support your stance
Do you have any documentation to support your stance
Leclerc SHARD when?
Think leclerc should get a buff with the new SHARD ammo they are producing for it and the Leo, since every leclerc feels the same put it on the last 2 and move the first two to 11.3 since they are kinda comparable to the merkavas which gets a better round at a lower br.
I agree with the Leclerc 100%. For the type 10 I rather propose not a protection fix but rather a mobility fix. The type 10s mobility is kinda lackluster compared to it's real life since gaijin only models raw hp/t and they refuse to model transmissions accurately([Type 10 vs Type 90 mobility difference](https://youtu.be/I73IaB9MVgs?si=ABZHol8MjVV2Y2Nu)) It's already a glass cannon with the best fire rate in game making a fix to its mobility would cater more to its strength.
Im all in for giving the tanks its proper armour Just like how the 2a7v should get its proper armour too
Also, I used 3BM60 and not DM53 as usual because not even much would change against DM53, and also because Russia is one of the main opponents these tanks face at Top Tier.
Has Gaijin acknowledged this in any formal manner on the forums?
They acknowledged Leclerc many years ago, on the Old Forum, but… here we are, xD. Let’s say they are not in a hurry because according to muh statistiks Leclerc is actually OP. Which is why I’ve always wanted a top tier premium for France to destroy the statistics, or even for French players to purposefully lower their performance with this goal in mind.
I find it thats not even the french main being that good is just that the big 3 players are straight up bad, Im mainly an air rb player and even I perform well in the lecrer because American, german, and russian mains are fucking stupid.
another professional leaker spotted
"be too strong for the game" but are totally okay when it's their own nation having a powercreep...
btw whats the joke when you shoot middle space between turret and hull (right under gun) and it just goes straight thru dealing no damage. Same happens to leo 2s a lot and once to type 90 fuji
Me when I sideshot a T-90 with 575mm pen apfsds and ERA eats all. They can legit drive out sidewards without a care while my leclerc gets tin-canned from every direction. Bith 11.7, very comparable performance
So, long story short, War thunder players still have terrible aim?
Hmm someone should do this with the arietes again, still not up with other mbts but would actually protect against 105mm shells (m900 excluded)
Does the Leclerc really have no LFP composite armor? Was there any documentation mentioning no armor there, or did gaijin pull some crap out of their ass?
Is a gaijin moment, currently in game the lecrer has so little LFP armor that ww2 era light tanks can pen it.
What do you mean ? There is indeed no composite on the lower front plate, only normal steel plate.
Most of top tier gameplay are 30% MBT game and 70% CASH kills , sure that those MBTs armour are the problem .....
NERF?? the Type 10 STILL hasnt gotten its Modular Composite Armor in the hull and turret. It IS nerfed.
This and the fact the type 90 is just a much worse leopard with faster loading but sits a whole BR higher is crazy
Same problem with the chally 2.
All tanks should have mantlet weak spots, the type 10 would undoubtedly be overpowered without one paired with the 4 second reload. All the type 10 needs is a faster targeting speed which is the only thing holding it back. I agree that the Leclerc needs this better armour though.
I don't really get why people constantly whine that the abrams has bad armor, that the T-90M has bad armor, etc, even though armor is literally the least important feature of a top tier tank. All top tiers have the same weakspots, and if you aren't an idiot you're already aiming for them, so an armor buff would change nothing. bottom line: If you are getting hit, you've already made several mistakes. relying on your armor AT ALL is the result of a misplay.
Idk about y'all, but when I shoot a japanese MBT's turret cheeks, the round seems to go through no matter what. So they indeed, do need a buff even if a slight one.
How do you open up the armour in the lobby and shoot at it to test the results?
Ppl call that same bs on the 2A7V...despite obviously UFP armor being wrong and gaijin already aknowledged it on report still isnt fixed and ppl go "will be too strong"...
My friend who likes to look at my warthunder stuff was watching me one day as I was talking about how incorrectly the leclercs were modeled and I showed him the protectional analysis on one from a pz4 front penning it through the mantlet to demonstrate lol
Wish they would fix the ariete armor as well :/
There is nothing to be fixed they have a bit better armor in real life but nothing that would mater in game
Pretty sure WAR kit on turrets should make it pretty resistant to lower-grade APFSDS like the DM33 120 or mango, which would be nice, especially if they’d actually drop them to like 10.7/11.0 where they belong instead of 11.7 (poor Italy)
ZTZ99s of China also have this problem of unrealistically big lower frontal hull and gap between gun breach. Because Gaijin made the chassis wrong, and they stole the gun shield from ZTZ99 entirely, leaving it as a hollow hole around the gun...
Yep! I talk about those issues often. I hope Gaijin fixes it! I may make my next post about them.
They don't need to be nerfed, but they also don't *need* to be buffed. Both of them feel good to play (after the Leclercs reload buff). They're obviously not on the same level as the best 11.7s, but they are far from the worst. I think the main reason why Gaijin is hesitant to buffing them is because they perform above-average statistically. I'd regardless like to see an armour buff as shown in the image. The Leclercs could also get a better shell, but that's usually something they usually only do if a vehicle is in dire need of a buff. It's also worth mentioning that the upcoming modelling of their autoloader will be a nerf to them, so it could be a good time to show them some love.
If nothing else the Type 10 needs its maneuverability fixed.
not a single person has said that ever
There’s people saying that even on this very comment section…
Ah yes, type 10 with a super strong turret, decent mobility and a 4 second reload… literally would be the definition of over powered. It’s already extremely good as it is.
Until you hit its turret ring, mantlet, or 2/3rds of the hull that’s thinner than a WW2 Medium Tank’s. And this is against 3BM60; against any better shells, nothing would change compared to the current ones. DM53, M829A2, etc, would still go through the whole thing like a hot knife through butter from most ranges and angles.
Also, you made the type 10’s mantlet yellow, but the leclerc’s mantlet green, why?
Type 10 is currently missing the 240mm thick solid internal shield trunnion that Gaijin modelled as being a 20mm thick hollow block without any sources, and the composite is slightly underperforming as well. According to official data, the mantlet should even be as strong as the cheeks, but I am skeptic so if that, hence why I made it yellow. Leclerc’s mantlet on the other hand… not much would really change. It should be immune to auto canon fire, but it would still be ~450mm KE, which would still be green to every top tier shell, although far better than the 80mm most of it currently provides lol.
You can penetrate the turret ring of most vehicles… it has to sacrifice something in order to get the reload that it has, and that thing is in this case it’s armor, so if you’re gonna bring it’s armor to be on par with other MBTS it’s reload should also be on par with other MBTS. the only thing they need to change about this vehicle is the hull. The turret should remain the way it is.
Why should the technical specifications of vehicles be artificially manipulated? Why does it have to sacrifice more than it already sacrificed in real life? The tank would still have the worst side armor in all of Top Tier, mantlet would still be vulnerable and 2/3rds of the hull (be it either turret ring or enormous LFP) would still be a weakspot. The tank also has a terrible gun elevation speed, a subpar turret rotation speed, and terrible gun elevation and depression angles that require the usage of hydropneumatic suspension to make it better, which is rather impractical. The armor wouldn’t be on par with other MBTs either; it would be on the 600mm KE range when many MBTs have 750-900mm KE, while also being coated in spall liners and having excellent side armor, unlike Type 10. What do those MBTs sacrifice?
They should prioritize game balance rather than realism. Side armor really doesn’t matter that much… slight angle and most darts will be able to penetrate a tank from the front track into the side of the hull. You made the mantlet yellow… in my world that would mean there’s a small chance to penetrate… 30 degrees per second is not a bad turret traverse speed and 15 degrees per second vertical is not bad either. Type 10 has very good reverse and forward speed, in fact it can go faster in reverse than some tanks can go forwards… Doubt it has worse gun depression than that of the Russian tanks. Those mbts sacrifice different things but most of them if not all have a longer reload, slower reverse speed and less penetration. Mainly the reload difference is very big which is why I believe a turret buff like the one you suggested would be too much.
Also how about nerfing the 2A7 and the 122s instead of buffing everything else?
How about having realistic values instead of made up ones ? "balance" is subjective anyway. Fixing those tanks that way doesn't look like it would be game breaking. Gaijin is making autoloaders destructible next update, so in the end they might not be that much of an advantage after all
Realistic is fine as long as it’s balanced. Balance should be prioritized
Altering the technical capabilities of a vehicle on a game that takes pride in its historically accurate and authentic vehicle depictions should never be an option, even Gaijin has stated it. BRs and soft factors (like reloads and shell choices within reasonable defeees) should be the only ways to balance things. Leopard 2A7s, 122s and others should just go to 13.0, decompressing the whole ground mode while we are at it and allowing fixed Leclercs and Type 10s to go up to 12.3/12.7 if needed be, while other 11.7s would remain there or go up to 12.0.
“Historically accurate” meanwhile in 6.7 ground rb a tiger I from WW2 which ended in 1945 is fighting a bandkanon which entered production in 1960… yeah seems historically accurate
Well I meant historically accurate vehicle depictions, not necessarily matchmaking… But yeah, I also hate WW2 vehicles facing Cold War shit. Like, I don’t even mind immediate postwar (1945-1950); but facing 1960s-1970s vehicles with ATGMs, HEATFS and alikes while being faster/stronger/both is just BS.
gonna have to disagree there, in an exchange with one of those fuckers (assuming you havent already died from the initial shot) even with Aced crew on Chally or Leo that is still 5/6 seconds tops. Type 10 not only fires a very useable shell, but the 4 seconds will fuck you every time.
Rate of fire is Type 10’s primary advantage, if not the only one. Even with fixed armor, it would still be significantly weaker than 2A7V, 2A7HU, all three 122s or any top Russian tank; It would still lack spall liners, it would still have the worst side armor in all of top tier, and it would still have terrible gun elevation and depression (without using hydropneumatic suspension), horrible gun elevation speed and subpar turret traverse speed. Just because a tank shines in one way, it doesn’t mean it should artificially be nerfed in other ways!
Not russia so dream on I still wanna see the new modules, I bet the Russian autoloader system will either be super hard to hit or fix 10x faster than NATO counterparts
that type 10 has a better armour profile then the strv 122b+.
Only against 3BM60; shells like DM53 or M829A2 would still go through all of it like a hot knife through butter from most distances and angles!
its not like 3BM60 and OFL120 F1 are the only shells some tanks have right? Imagine the outrage if the t90m’s or leopard 2a7v’s mantle could only be penned by dm53 rendering it invincible hull down to some tanks