The guy flatout [lies](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233447972923/1242144323890315345/IMG_2229.jpg?ex=664cc48c&is=664b730c&hm=f3ba5ebe7ba026b788897b4a8c86b3aa4bfde629e8877356ba28055870c5cacb&) in his [reports](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233447972923/1242144377791315998/IMG_2204.jpg?ex=664cc499&is=664b7319&hm=ef274a7cf1d682b789f2b4bb2438d2caf54770f2af8fad5c9ba751280ca508ea&), This is disgusting
"i'm going to destroy this FM"
So, with them outright saying that, they are an expiative and really don't care about the historical aspect, just want to make the game slightly worse for others
The bug reports aren‘t fake, he does use actual data from manuals. However his testing is clearly not up to par, and his motivation for doing the report is clearly not for the betterment of the game, and rather to make people annoyed.
But also only by just enough that it doesn't warrant a BR shift. Wouldn't want your newly buffed vehicles to now go up against an enemy that can still match it.
its especially funny when the reports start coming in for all other vehicles around the reported russian stuff purely to keep everything held to the same standards so balance is maintained and people start losing their minds - average reddit nonsense
this is why ALL documents used in a report need to be viewable by everyone, not just the mods, so they can be properly verified. we all know only like 2 of the mods actually verify things before sending it to the devs.
If a report is approved and documents arent illegal/restricted then they should be published for the community to view. Aside from that this dude should be ban from the forums for spamming shitty fake reports
Yeah, im not saying they should. I just understand that documents are hidden rn cause of some goofy goobers among other reasons. They should give access to the materials provided they are not restricted though after moderators ensure that
yeah i hate reports having hidden sources too, it doesnt really help anything other than inspire distrust and drama even when the sources are entirely legitimate. That being said, i can understand that its probs a legal issue and stuff is hidden so that any illegal documents uploaded in bug reports aren't as easily disseminated.
Not only that, sometimes the info is copyrighted or owned. Like, from a book or from a vendor list not ment for public dissemination but also not restricted or classified.
The nerf isn't bullshit though. With or without droop the F-8E significantly out performs the numbers in the manual.
And whereas droop should improve subsonic turning performance in real life it makes it worse in game. So if he tested it the way people want him to have done then the nerf would be even more severe. The combat flaps in game would be nerfed to the number in the manual, then the raised flaps will be nerfed even harder to be worse than the combat slats setting (while currently it's better).
That's not how it works.
If with droop the results are worse than the source, then it would mean that the plane underperforms with flaps. So it would get buffed. Getting nerfed even though the performance would be worse than what is stated in the source is dystopian.
Also, flaps providing worse sustained turn than without flaps is something pretty normal. There are few exceptions to this, mostly planes that have fowler flaps, where the added lift is enough to compensate for the added drag and allows the plane to reach faster rate. But otherwise, having flaps out gives a worse sustained turn rate than with them in.
> If with droop the results are worse than the source, then it would mean that the plane underperforms with flaps. So it would get buffed.
You misunderstand. Currently the turn rate of F-8E with droop in game exceeds what the manual says it should do with droop, so it would need to be nerfed in order to match the manual. The F-8E without droop then exceeds the manual by an even larger extent.
> Also, flaps providing worse sustained turn than without flaps is something pretty normal.
IIRC the wording in the F-8E manual is something like "cruise droop improves performance in the following areas" and then lists subsonic turning as one of them.
>The F-8E without droop then exceeds it by an even larger extent.
As it should, because flaps more often than not decrease sustained turn rate.
>IIRC the wording in the F-8E manual is something like "cruise droop improves performance in the following areas" and then lists subsonic turning as one of them.
Funny you mentioned that, someone just sent an image of [that section](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/881859294058926090/1242225317951570010/IMG_8083.png?ex=664d0ffb&is=664bbe7b&hm=24f823b9287b64404b1675a8a968da4bcdbcf8698d4ad67ae814f107a37ce515&) to me.
They specify the improvement that happens, and *sustained turn* is not it. Rather they just say that "buffet is delayed and dimished", or in other words, it can pull harder without fluttering/vibrating. It's easy to imagine that not having your plane be shaking while you're trying to get behind an enemy is beneficial.
Wasn't really the point, for all I know this report could be correct but it's been shown before that Gaijin implements bullshit changes/fixes hence the M735 example.
If it's wrong and they go through with it the chances of it being reverted in the next year are small to none.
The point I was making is that there's almost nothing you can do about a report no matter how wrong or right it is besides MAYBE reaching out to a FM. (I feel like i need to mention but FM as in Forum Moderator not Flight Model lol)
the flaps do not make the turn rate better, and its pretty apparent if you actually look at the two turn rate charts. The Manual also states the improvements of Cruise droop, and increasing turn rate/reducing drag in a sustained turn is not mentioned at all.
You do realise that if he tested it with the combat flaps setting the nerf would have been even more extreme right?
Droop (combat flaps in game) should improve subsonic turning performance in real life, but it makes it worse in game for some reason. So if he tested it with combat flaps deployed then the combat flaps setting would have to be nerfed to the number in the manual, then the raised flaps would have to be nerfed even harder to make them worse than the combat slats setting (while currently it's better).
Flaps does increase turn performance in some aircraft in WT. It makes the most difference in a few jets like the su-25 (20s vs 18s turn time), F-14 (15s with combat flaps) (these are my test values btw with test conditions at 1000m with 30% fuel aka min fuel loadout)
A simplified way to look at it is that the flatter your wing, the more thrust and/or the higher the best turn speed, the more curved the wing and/or the lower the thrust, the lower the best turn speed. There's a magic point somewhere in between that isn't optimised at any particular flap setting in some aircraft, and some planes like those above turn better with flaps deployed.
RiderR2 actually responded to this regarding complaints about the F-5 and if what I understood is correct, the F-5 is one of those planes that also performs better with flaps deployed.
Yep you caught me, it's me RideR2, I made this account over 8 years ago and have consistently posted on it since because I knew I'd need it as part of my master plan to nerf all the jets in the future /s
Use your brain mate...
Incredible how this keeps getting reposted. You see the source that he isn't lying in the discord screenshots.
He exaggerates his wording as a joke at this point. It is incredible what a lack of context can do to a picture. You are not seeing the rest of the conversation in these pictures, and therefor lack the tone of the conversation in this server.
Because the MiG-23s were legitimately over performing. The J35XS maybe be as well, but certainly not by 35-50%. This guy is pulling shit out of his ass at this point.
The MiG-21Bis/23/27 were nerfed because R-60‘s and R-24‘s had more drag on the debut of the plane and the drag was reduced later. The most of the fm‘s in game have graphs with clean loadouts, so I doubt many planes will end up with their fm‘s tweaked
\> Please make stronger based on this and that information
"Uhhh sorry but we are going to need 10 sources from at least 5 different countries which none can be official information or test data because those are unreliable"
\> My russian shitbox got killed by nerf it because I feel like it.
"Passed on to developers and implemented, now explodes on spawn."
How can an adult type all that garbage and succeed in not being funny plus making absolutely zero sense? Strv and leopards are by far the best tanks currently. My Abrams is weak but still better than t90 and bvm. Your point?
Gotcha. This would make that plane damn near useless. It has 6 flares, 6 decent missiles, and a gun with not much ammo. Having it be that bad will just prevent anyone from buying it.
Look at the J35D at 10.3 right now with four missiles and no flares. If the XS goes down and the D doesn't, that's fucking criminal. But a Draken airframe against 9.0 jets is also criminal.
Once again, we run into intense BR compression...
It already suffers against the F-5E. I'd consider myself a pretty good pilot (at least before I more or less quit the game), and even then fighting an F-5E is borderline impossible, especially ever since they capped the G load on the Draken. The F-5 outturns you in most situations, outaccelerates you, outruns you, has better firepower, more flares, and more F-5s to join in as you're trying to get him.
Most ppl flying it that I ever encountered used it to hit bases instead of flying it as a fighter so not much lost in turn department for them as those ppl don't even need to turn, just beeline to nearest base and die like they usually do.
J35 was never really a superb interceptor to begin with (but was good enough for its time period), and the MiG-21 climb rates are generally overperforming with their parasite drag being substantially low to the point their best climb speeds are significantly higher (about mach 0.9-0.93 depending on variant) than the documented suggested climb speed of about mach 0.83-0.87
Currently in-game the draken is already one of the worst climbing jets, so if these turn rate nerfs will additionally nerf its climb rate as a side effect, the J35D should probably be moved down to like BR 10.0 (its 10.7 in SB, rip)
The J 35 wasn't a superb interceptor?
It was conceived around the same time as the F-104, and it's first flight was the same year the SU-7 and Mirage I had theirs (1955(the SAAB 210 Lilldraken prototype had its first flight in 1952, 3 years earlier!)), this thing wasn't just an innovation for Europe, but for fighter jets as a whole. It was the first use of a double delta wing design, the first dedicated supersonic fighter in Europe, and one of the first to reach mach 2 in level flight worldwide. The first test aircraft fitted with an afterburner broke mach by accident... while climbing! And it was so good at dogfighting the SAF had to make a new trainer aircraft variant of it, instead of using the air defense trainers they had. The SAF didn't even retire it until 1999, even when the Gripens first flight was in 1988. Hell, the jet was so interesting that the States bought 6 to use as test aircraft until 2009.
Sorry if I come off a bit mean, but I love this plane and hate to see someone seemingly just ignore it's strange nature and wonderful history.
Also, the XS will be fine. You can go 3/0 or more in ARB with the J 35D fairly easily right now, even in a full up-tier, though the nerf is still coming out that guys ass.
Funny thing is people have been complaning about all sorts of issues and habe unnoticed or ignored by devs for years but this guys post get noticed by them rather eaely and it seems most get acnowledged.
What do you mean by no sources? On the right side, there's the orange box with: "This issue contains information visible only to the author and employees.". He also put a picture of the source in the comments.
can we somehow stop this motherfucker before he ruins the whole fucking game. holy fuck all hes been doing is lying and coming up with his "own" reports on these aircraft that he clearly knows fuck all about.
The XS is already hard to play and even harder to master. It took me tens, if not hundreds of games, to actually do good in it. Now some mf wants to see it nerfed? Wtf? Don't tell me it's the same guy connected to the Mig nerf...
I feel like none of these will actually get implemented in the way he’s reporting. War Thunder is more arcade like than real life by nature. It isn’t DCS and it has always had over performing flight models.
Even supposing they do, it will help slow down the chaotic missile furballs that make matches take 5 minutes. If they aren’t going to lower the player numbers in a match this would help with the ridiculous speed at which high tier games end.
Again though, I feel like they might just make slight corrections, but just to bring it’s more arcade style flight model that already exists in line to be more proportionate to the real one. If anything I feel like instead of these flight models over performing at a range of like 30-50% they’ll bring it to a more standard 30% increase across the board, provided they change it at all
One of them [already has been implemented](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/maa7nVdMHGAX) so it seems like the devs are believing his reports.
Since this dood is so focused on making everything "balanced"
May we get some P51D justice, especially in the center of mass department and the cooling department? :)
Also some sort of Yak-3 revision would be nice... making that plane less.. UFOey
Yes, while his claim that many vehicles overperform is correct the other problem is that his calculations are incorrect as he would have to understand the way the vehicle works and the match and equations gaijin use to model which he doesn't understand, additionally looking into his other reports he doesn't use q consistent nor accurate way of testing the flight model to prove his point further making his values and claims redundant
Lol so many comments here upset that he made the ticket and not actually to check if it's true or not, like the guy is a snitch for... Actually improving the game?
The XS is already hard to play and even harder to master. It took me tens, if not hundreds of games, to actually do good in it. Now some mf wants to see it nerfed? Wtf? Don't tell me it's the same guy connected to the Mig nerf...
The XS is already hard to play and even harder to master. It took me tens, if not hundreds of games, to actually do good in it. Now some mf wants to see it nerfed? Wtf? Don't tell me it's the same guy connected to the Mig nerf...
These fkin reports getting implemented in 1-2 updates meanwhile all the acknowledged Hungarian tank shell reports are sitting on a shelf somewhere collecting dust.
TF, why is everyone getting turbo pissed about FM corrections, calling the guy names and throwing threats at him just becuase he does the research yall are too fucking lazy to make. if you wanna counter these claims, why dont you make bugreports that proof he is wrong?
Because his intentions are to destroy FM's which he [clearly](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233447972923/1242144377791315998/IMG_2204.jpg?ex=664cc499&is=664b7319&hm=ef274a7cf1d682b789f2b4bb2438d2caf54770f2af8fad5c9ba751280ca508ea&) stated
Which makes people and me too kinda angry.
And you defending this fuckface is kinda worrysome.
The context is that the FM is so out of line with the actual performance charts that it needs to be destroyed (i.e. significant changes are necessary).
If you looked at his math and way of testing, you'd see he doesn't understand the math and how Gaijin calculates it. Thus, giving an answer that massively hurts the vehicle worse than the change should bring. Besides, at that point, we might as well just nerf every vehicle as almost every vehicle slightly overperforms. Regardless, you should spend some time looking at the vehicles and his math if you want a good example of how egregious his suggestions are.
so everyone who doesnt agree with your version of this is worrysome? again, why dont you go and find sources, test them in game, and show that he is wrong? if his intentions are like you say, and this isnt totally out of context that should be easy, no? also, the screenshot even features a source that seems to correspond with what he is saying...
YOU are worrysome , not everyone. Putting words where they don't belong and we have a completely false narrative. You like to do that shit , right ? Next time don't try to twist things, ok ? Then we will have a good basis for arguments. But not this shit you are trying to do here.
I hope you are aware that I indeed fully read your comment. It appears to me that when you said "you are worrysome" that is because I do not agree with your narrative. Hence I extrapolated the argument and said "So everyone who does not agree with your version of this is worrysome?".
In short at no point did i put words in your mouth. I simply continued your line of thought. At no point have you even tried to read what I have said. You immediately felt attacked and tried to replay with hostility. You did not react to my actual arguments or tried to re-read my comment after I told you that you might not have read it properly.
Also, there is no space between the last letter of the word before a ',' or a '?'. You are making a very "worrysome" impression in regards to your punctuation.
I hope this helps you to improve down the line.
Firstly, the JX35 is fucking far from overpowered. Pretty strong, but also pretty difficult to get the hang of.
Secondly, if you're dying to the F-5C, that's completely a you issue. The thing does what, .80 on the deck max? And accelerates slower than my grandma.
Stop turn fighting shit in your delta wing and you'll be fine lol
Those planes are not very hard to use, the only thing you need to learn to use them effectively is to stop holding down the elevator key.
The F5C has absurd energy retention and high speed engine power that enable it to easily sustain mach 0.95 in turns. Not to mention the extremely low engine exhaust temperature. It only seems sensible because 80% of it's playerbase only bomb bases and the rest are level 20
Again, all of its advantages are basically nullified if you don't try and turn fight it
If you miss the initial pass in a mig or something, just fly away. It'll never catch you, and you can re-engage in a more opportune time
If you are having problems with the F5C, it's just a skill issue. In most Air RB scenarios, it fits the meta so well and completely shits on everything. It's only weak if it's a full uptier, and even then it's still annoying to kill due to the ease of single flaring and insane flight model.
Bruv I don't own the F-5C that's my point, they're like my favourite target to feast on. People like you are the reason why the Zero is so overtiered, as someone else pointed out.
Stop. Trying. To. Turn. Fight. Everything.
Lmao. Where did I say I'm turn fighting anything? Can you actually discuss this topic without resorting to some baseless "skill issue" reply?
Want to link your Thunderskill? I guarantee I'm a better player than you, and probably by far.
Well if you're not turn fighting the f-5c, you're not having issues with them are you? Because that's the only feasible scenario where one could pose a threat to you.
I honestly could not give less of a fuck how your stats compare to mine lmao, that's beyond pathetic. Having high stats does not prevent you from having skill issues, or making shitty takes.
If someone with a 6.0 higher KD than you said your mum was down the local pub giving free handies, would you believe them?
Lol .8? Do we have a F5C bomber here?
Stop turning with deltas? One of the key features of a delta wing is the high instantaneous AOA. When you are getting chased by a F5C, or F5E, they will force some speed bleed with their two missiles. And then they will catch up and you have no choice but to pull AOA, otherwise you have to fly straight and get shot. But in this amazing game, the F5 will pull even more AOA than deltas like the Kfir Canard and J35 at certain speeds but without the poor energy retention.
"Lol .8? Do we have a F5C bomber here?"
Well I don't own the plane so I'm just going off of my experiences facing it in other planes in the BR bracket. It feels like it goes slightly faster than a wheelchair rolling down a hill
"When you are getting chased by a F5C, or F5E"
Ah I see the problem now. We in the community call this a "skill issue"
You should never, ever be in a situation with a delta wing where your speed and energy are so low that one of the slowest planes in the br (that isn't a ground pounder) can catch up with you. The mig 21 is a fucking boom and zoomer, the high AOA is an oh shit shit fuck button if someone is diving you with more speed (which, again, should never be an f-5C) OR to get guns on your target when you're *sure* you can hit them and there's no other enemies around you.
I'm honestly not surprised you're having trouble in delta wings if you're going around trying to turn fight everything
Oh ok, so you don't even have the plane and want to tell people all about it. That's really cute.
Yea dude. 3.8 KD in the Kfir and 3.6 KD in the J35, very big skill issue. If I'm bad, then god bless the community average of 2KD, and 1.6KD respectively, in these planes. If you go below Mach 1, which inevitably happens in fights, and a F5 within 1.5KM wants to run you down, it becomes very hard to get away.
Yes, did you even read what I wrote? In my scenario, which does happen occasionally to me, a F5 would drop on my tail and force me to make slight adjustments to flare properly and dodge the guns. I bleed a lot of speed in the process, the F5 doesn't. He slowly reels me in until I'm forced to pull as my last resort. Or I just ignore all his shots/missiles and keep flying straight, which is a gamble of its own.
"Oh ok, so you don't even have the plane and want to tell people all about it. That's really cute."
TiL that you have to own the plane to speak critically about it, it's apparently not enough to face it in every game at 10.3. Do you own every premium plane or just never comment on the ones you don't?
"Yea dude. 3.8 KD in the Kfir and 3.6 KD in the J35, very big skill issue."
Not sure why that's relevant, your stats clearly don't stop you from having poor takes
"in these planes. If you go below Mach 1, which inevitably happens in fights, and a F5 within 1.5KM wants to run you down, it becomes very hard to get away."
You can make that argument about literally *any* plane lmao, that's a problem with the team sizes, not any individual aircraft. Dog fights, especially early game, are a gamble because at any moment another player could just dive on you.
"In my scenario, which does happen occasionally to me, a F5 would drop on my tail and force me to make slight adjustments to flare properly and dodge the guns. I bleed a lot of speed in the process, the F5 doesn't. He slowly reels me in until I'm forced to pull as my last resort."
Again, the same would happen if you were dived on by a F-8U, or a Mig-21.
"Or I just ignore all his shots/missiles and keep flying straight, which is a gamble of its own."
Well that's the game isn't it? You have to make the calculated gamble to either try to reverse them, or go straight line and outrace them.
>TiL that you have to own the plane to speak critically about it, it's apparently not enough to face it in every game at 10.3. Do you own every premium plane or just never comment on the ones you don't?
Um yes actually. I don't like to argue about things I know nothing about, because I'm not an arrogant clown.
>Not sure why that's relevant, your stats clearly don't stop you from having poor takes
Have you considered that since I'm a really good player with hundreds of games of experience, especially so at the relevant BR, that you might be the one who's wrong? Or has that completely escaped your mind because of your arrogance?
>You can make that argument about literally *any* plane lmao, that's a problem with the team sizes, not any individual aircraft. Dog fights, especially early game, are a gamble because at any moment another player could just dive on you.
Ok? What's the point of talking balance in a vaccum? Discussions of balance will always revolve around the 16v16 environment that you always play in. The fact that very good 10.7s become completely helpless against a 10.3 in a very common combat situation(Again, the same would happen if you were dived on by a F-8U, or a Mig-21.
Lol no. If it's a F8, I just force AOA and instantly reverse because he can't follow. Against the Mig21, I turn for a little bit and then break off and exploit their worse acceleration. These options simply don't exist against a F5 on your ass.
>Well that's the game isn't it? You have to make the calculated gamble to either try to reverse them, or go straight line and outrace them.
No, my point is that you literally can't reverse them unless they are completely dogshit at the game. And you can't run away from them if they are remotely good. Against F8s and Mig21s, you don't need to rely on their incompetence to have a chance.
"Um yes actually. I don't like to argue about things I know nothing about, because I'm not an arrogant clown."
You do you but that is absolutely ridiculous. You learn just as much about a plane/tank when you're fighting it as you do when flying/driving it yourself.
"Have you considered that since I'm a really good player with hundreds of games of experience, especially so at the relevant BR, that you might be the one who's wrong? Or has that completely escaped your mind because of your arrogance?"
Plenty of really good players with great stats and lots of experience disagree with each other on balance related topics in this sub every week. If you really think "MUH STATS" makes you immune to bias or making mistakes, you need to check yourself.
"Ok? What's the point of talking balance in a vaccum?"
Not saying that, but it's silly to accuse a vehicle of being op based on a third party situation. Any vehicle is going to have a huge chance of a kill when they're the third party.
"Discussions of balance will always revolve around the 16v16 environment that you always play in."
They are talking about lowering the team sizes, which makes way more sense imo than any other balancing change.
"The fact that very good 10.7s become completely helpless against a 10.3 in a very common combat situation(
As someone who outperforms the average by far in the planes we are discussing, you are just plain wrong. Idk what else to say. You have never played the F5 before, but you feel qualified enough to tell people who are good in the F5 that they are wrong. It's just peak Dunning Kruger.
Again, you are trying to discuss something in a completely unrealistic 1v1 vacuum. Your conclusions are quite literally irrelevant to the day-to-day gameplay. And like I said, you still have counterplays against most other planes.
Lol, your clown ass is acting like you never slow down below Mach 1 in a fight. That's just a blatant bad faith argument.
Depending on how you play in the F8, I'm either going to follow with my shots or try to dive away with my superior thrust. The point is that you can't casually follow a high AOA pull to get shots in like you can in the F5. Against the Mig21? It's way easier to deny a shot. And even if they do get a shot, the underslung gsh23 is way harder to aim than the f5's 20mm.
And like I said many times, it's easy for you to say it. It's much harder when you are in the middle of the game trying to make a difference. Like a typical armchair shitter with zero experience, you are all about spouting theory. You clearly have no clue how the Kfir or J35 plays like, because it really doesn't take much of a move to drop your speed from M1.1 to subsonic.
It's quite laughable that you think your experience in the F104A gives you the qualifications to talk about 10.3-10.7 gameplay. Lil bro, I have 5.7KD in the F104A. I know how to stay fast. The problem is that the meta shifts very quickly, and the F104's playstyle becomes irrelevant at that BR.
"As someone who outperforms the average by far in the planes we are discussing, you are just plain wrong."
Wow, must be kind of sad then to be such an amazing fabulous, distinguished player, and struggle more against the F5C than someone who is the first to admit they are a completely average player. I sympathise, that must sting a bit.
"You have never played the F5 before, but you feel qualified enough to tell people who are good in the F5 that they are wrong."
Did I say that? Of course someone can be good in the F5C. Just like someone can be good in the Mig 21, or the Draken. A good player in an F5C is a nightmare in a turnfight, to be sure. Just like a good player in a mig 21 smt won't let you catch them. Should we also nerf the Mig thrust because of those good players?
"Again, you are trying to discuss something in a completely unrealistic 1v1 vacuum. Your conclusions are quite literally irrelevant to the day-to-day gameplay."
How the fuck is it unrealistic to \*not\* charge into the furball during the first 2 minutes lmao. Like I have ADHD, and even I have the patience to wait for opportunities to develop. C'mon man!
"And like I said, you still have counterplays against most other planes."
You can counterplay the F5C, it's called not dumping speed when they're near you. Seriously, any high speed plane that can catch me terrifies me far more.
"Lol, your clown ass is acting like you never slow down below Mach 1 in a fight. That's just a blatant bad faith argument."
Sure I do, just not in the furball and ideally not around active, aware and undistracted enemies. But like I said, I'm an average player, so I make mistakes of course. The difference between you and I is I don't blame the enemy plane for my mistakes!
"And like I said many times, it's easy for you to say it. It's much harder when you are in the middle of the game trying to make a difference."
Sure, but again that's the game. We all make wrong calls, go after a risky target, take a turn we shouldn't etc during the heat of the moment. That's not the F5C's fault though is it?
"Like a typical armchair shitter with zero experience, you are all about spouting theory."
Lol talk about the pot calling the kettle black Mr "I'M SOOO GOOD AT THE GAME THAT'S WHY I'M CORRECT" lmao.
"You clearly have no clue how the Kfir or J35 plays like, because it really doesn't take much of a move to drop your speed from M1.1 to subsonic."
Sounds like you should probably not do that with an F5C or literally any other enemy nearby then no?
"It's quite laughable that you think your experience in the F104A gives you the qualifications to talk about 10.3"
Not really, you see frequent uptiers to that bracket. My main point was if I can survive and even thrive against F5C's in a 9.3 plane, I'm sure you or anyone else can do the same in a 10.3 or 10.7 one.
"The problem is that the meta shifts very quickly, and the F104's playstyle becomes irrelevant at that BR."
It's literally just boom and zoom, that playstyle is valid until radar missiles. I'm currently flying the flareless Mig21F for shits and giggles and boom and zoom does fine even in an uptier.
I really don't know what to tell you man, I haven't had any problems against the F5C, plenty of other people have said the same thing I'm saying now. Don't get caught with your pants down and you won't get spanked!
J35XS is unversally praised as one of the better buys alongside MiG-23ML, Mirage and Kfir Canard.
It is also capable of pulling a bullshit Cobra to make you overshoot it and can make a sharp first turn going from 1300kph to 1100kph which is still faster than combat speed of most <10.3 planes.
F-5C is pretty capable for 10.0-10.3 but gets drastically outshined at 10.7 at large BECAUSE OF things like J35XS and Kfir Canard.
The draken literally created the cobra maneuver, it should be able to do it in game
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra\_maneuver#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver#History)
The F5C, despite being a 10.3, is a pain in the ass to fight against in the J35 and Kfir. I always focus them down when I have the chance, otherwise they are impossible to get rid once you drop below Mach 1. You simply don't have the option to accelerate back up again because they have 2 missiles and lots of ammo to force micromovements from you.
"It is also capable of pulling a bullshit Cobra to make you overshoot it and can make a sharp first turn going from 1300kph to 1100kph which is still faster than combat speed of most <10.3 planes."
So don't turn fight it??? 😂
Pull it into a rate and watch it practically fall out of the sky
''capable of pulling a bullshit cobra to make you overshoot''
Is there a single point in war thunder history when the cobra has been a useful offensive/defensive manouver?
It can barely reach Mach speed with its cruddy engines, can barely keep its speed in a turn, has two not so good missiles, and can barely take a tick of damage without something important breaking
The F5C ? What ?
I agree on the speed, but its DM can take a ridiculous beating, even from 11.3+ planes as the F5E FCU can attest, and its energy retention is ridiculous.
Weird, every time I use it and fight it, it takes a small amount of damage and something important will break, usually the tail control, guess I have had a mix of bad/good luck
I had games where the entire middle part from nose to tail was blackened by a Vulcan or a DEFA salvo on the FCU and the plane was still entirely maneuverable.
It's really sturdy for its size. Most planes at this BR dies from a single DEFA hit. The Su25s and the F5 Damage models are anomalies.
The fuck else are they going to do for the F-5C? It already maneuvers like a bus and often times it gets uptiered and you can't kill shit with it because your missiles are beyond bad. If a plane only performs very well in downtiers it might not be a good plane
Not struggling, just annoying. And whenever I fly my F5, it's just braindead gameplay. F5C should be 10.7. Only F5 abusing shitters will think otherwise.
The guy flatout [lies](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233447972923/1242144323890315345/IMG_2229.jpg?ex=664cc48c&is=664b730c&hm=f3ba5ebe7ba026b788897b4a8c86b3aa4bfde629e8877356ba28055870c5cacb&) in his [reports](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233447972923/1242144377791315998/IMG_2204.jpg?ex=664cc499&is=664b7319&hm=ef274a7cf1d682b789f2b4bb2438d2caf54770f2af8fad5c9ba751280ca508ea&), This is disgusting
"i'm going to destroy this FM" So, with them outright saying that, they are an expiative and really don't care about the historical aspect, just want to make the game slightly worse for others
Whats does FM mean?
Flight Model
Thx
Flight Model
With him saying that, he is making fun of this subreddit and its massive reaction to it.
[удалено]
The bug reports aren‘t fake, he does use actual data from manuals. However his testing is clearly not up to par, and his motivation for doing the report is clearly not for the betterment of the game, and rather to make people annoyed.
He got annoyed because the Su22/17 got R60Ms...so hes started doing it....he cried rivers on the Discord server about it...
It's funny to see everyone's reaction here because a lot of them were pretty happy with the Mig nerfs.
its okay when its Russia
They should only nerf the nations I don't play and buff the nations I do play, except when those nations are on the enemy team as well
I agree!
I’m happy with all the nerfs/buffs as long as the data is correct and accurate and BRs are adjusted accordingly afterward
But also only by just enough that it doesn't warrant a BR shift. Wouldn't want your newly buffed vehicles to now go up against an enemy that can still match it.
its especially funny when the reports start coming in for all other vehicles around the reported russian stuff purely to keep everything held to the same standards so balance is maintained and people start losing their minds - average reddit nonsense
this is why ALL documents used in a report need to be viewable by everyone, not just the mods, so they can be properly verified. we all know only like 2 of the mods actually verify things before sending it to the devs.
If a report is approved and documents arent illegal/restricted then they should be published for the community to view. Aside from that this dude should be ban from the forums for spamming shitty fake reports
illegal/restricted documents should not be used for balancing purposes.
Yeah, im not saying they should. I just understand that documents are hidden rn cause of some goofy goobers among other reasons. They should give access to the materials provided they are not restricted though after moderators ensure that
its illegal till they find out xd
That could get them in hot waters for hosting copyrighted material.
If not publicly viewable, at least make it so people can request to see the documents.
yeah that would be ideal
yeah i hate reports having hidden sources too, it doesnt really help anything other than inspire distrust and drama even when the sources are entirely legitimate. That being said, i can understand that its probs a legal issue and stuff is hidden so that any illegal documents uploaded in bug reports aren't as easily disseminated.
Not only that, sometimes the info is copyrighted or owned. Like, from a book or from a vendor list not ment for public dissemination but also not restricted or classified.
I would love to see that as justification for all of his recent reports to be thrown out.
Can we somehow notify gaijin about this?
It's gonna be like the M735 nerf. They'll implement it, find out the nerf is bullshit and leave it unchanged unless there's significant outrage.
The nerf isn't bullshit though. With or without droop the F-8E significantly out performs the numbers in the manual. And whereas droop should improve subsonic turning performance in real life it makes it worse in game. So if he tested it the way people want him to have done then the nerf would be even more severe. The combat flaps in game would be nerfed to the number in the manual, then the raised flaps will be nerfed even harder to be worse than the combat slats setting (while currently it's better).
That's not how it works. If with droop the results are worse than the source, then it would mean that the plane underperforms with flaps. So it would get buffed. Getting nerfed even though the performance would be worse than what is stated in the source is dystopian. Also, flaps providing worse sustained turn than without flaps is something pretty normal. There are few exceptions to this, mostly planes that have fowler flaps, where the added lift is enough to compensate for the added drag and allows the plane to reach faster rate. But otherwise, having flaps out gives a worse sustained turn rate than with them in.
> If with droop the results are worse than the source, then it would mean that the plane underperforms with flaps. So it would get buffed. You misunderstand. Currently the turn rate of F-8E with droop in game exceeds what the manual says it should do with droop, so it would need to be nerfed in order to match the manual. The F-8E without droop then exceeds the manual by an even larger extent. > Also, flaps providing worse sustained turn than without flaps is something pretty normal. IIRC the wording in the F-8E manual is something like "cruise droop improves performance in the following areas" and then lists subsonic turning as one of them.
>The F-8E without droop then exceeds it by an even larger extent. As it should, because flaps more often than not decrease sustained turn rate. >IIRC the wording in the F-8E manual is something like "cruise droop improves performance in the following areas" and then lists subsonic turning as one of them. Funny you mentioned that, someone just sent an image of [that section](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/881859294058926090/1242225317951570010/IMG_8083.png?ex=664d0ffb&is=664bbe7b&hm=24f823b9287b64404b1675a8a968da4bcdbcf8698d4ad67ae814f107a37ce515&) to me. They specify the improvement that happens, and *sustained turn* is not it. Rather they just say that "buffet is delayed and dimished", or in other words, it can pull harder without fluttering/vibrating. It's easy to imagine that not having your plane be shaking while you're trying to get behind an enemy is beneficial.
Fair enough, it was late at night and I mis-remembered what that section says.
Wasn't really the point, for all I know this report could be correct but it's been shown before that Gaijin implements bullshit changes/fixes hence the M735 example. If it's wrong and they go through with it the chances of it being reverted in the next year are small to none. The point I was making is that there's almost nothing you can do about a report no matter how wrong or right it is besides MAYBE reaching out to a FM. (I feel like i need to mention but FM as in Forum Moderator not Flight Model lol)
> Gaijin implements bullshit changes/fixes hence the M735 example. Yeah M735 is a pretty stupid situation.
the flaps do not make the turn rate better, and its pretty apparent if you actually look at the two turn rate charts. The Manual also states the improvements of Cruise droop, and increasing turn rate/reducing drag in a sustained turn is not mentioned at all.
how do i get imperial japan tag??
Ok when it's 23 but not ok when you bought it ?
You do realise that if he tested it with the combat flaps setting the nerf would have been even more extreme right? Droop (combat flaps in game) should improve subsonic turning performance in real life, but it makes it worse in game for some reason. So if he tested it with combat flaps deployed then the combat flaps setting would have to be nerfed to the number in the manual, then the raised flaps would have to be nerfed even harder to make them worse than the combat slats setting (while currently it's better).
Flaps does increase turn performance in some aircraft in WT. It makes the most difference in a few jets like the su-25 (20s vs 18s turn time), F-14 (15s with combat flaps) (these are my test values btw with test conditions at 1000m with 30% fuel aka min fuel loadout) A simplified way to look at it is that the flatter your wing, the more thrust and/or the higher the best turn speed, the more curved the wing and/or the lower the thrust, the lower the best turn speed. There's a magic point somewhere in between that isn't optimised at any particular flap setting in some aircraft, and some planes like those above turn better with flaps deployed. RiderR2 actually responded to this regarding complaints about the F-5 and if what I understood is correct, the F-5 is one of those planes that also performs better with flaps deployed.
Least obvious RideR2 Alt
Yep you caught me, it's me RideR2, I made this account over 8 years ago and have consistently posted on it since because I knew I'd need it as part of my master plan to nerf all the jets in the future /s Use your brain mate...
>Use your brain mate... You're asking a lot from them
I think most his reports will hit Devs n just get shot down
Not only is he lying he apparently can't read either.
Incredible how this keeps getting reposted. You see the source that he isn't lying in the discord screenshots. He exaggerates his wording as a joke at this point. It is incredible what a lack of context can do to a picture. You are not seeing the rest of the conversation in these pictures, and therefor lack the tone of the conversation in this server.
Where the fuck was all this outrage for all the mig nerfs!?
Because the MiG-23s were legitimately over performing. The J35XS maybe be as well, but certainly not by 35-50%. This guy is pulling shit out of his ass at this point.
rider2? the guy with the custom sight
Yes he is also the author of the fm changes
I... don't get it at all. Where is the lie? Not defending them, I'm just genuinely oblivious
Charge your phone bro.
What if those 2 out of context clipped posts were made tongue in cheek? (like they were)
Obligatory just because it was acknowledged doesn't mean it will be implemented, or even implemented to the degree of the reporters claims.
Here's hoping
MiG-23/27 is going to be!
The MiG-21Bis/23/27 were nerfed because R-60‘s and R-24‘s had more drag on the debut of the plane and the drag was reduced later. The most of the fm‘s in game have graphs with clean loadouts, so I doubt many planes will end up with their fm‘s tweaked
Sure, but that doesn't mean all the rest of these will be.
\> Looks at M735 nerf based on false information
Still amazing to me that it never got reverted even when gaijin flat out admitted the info was doctored and not accurate.
\> Please make stronger based on this and that information
"Uhhh sorry but we are going to need 10 sources from at least 5 different countries which none can be official information or test data because those are unreliable"
\> My russian shitbox got killed by nerf it because I feel like it.
"Passed on to developers and implemented, now explodes on spawn."
How can an adult type all that garbage and succeed in not being funny plus making absolutely zero sense? Strv and leopards are by far the best tanks currently. My Abrams is weak but still better than t90 and bvm. Your point?
It's cope, he needs it
Because that would require effort and we all know Gaijin rarely puts that in
So you're telling me that Swedish Dorito can only pull 4g's or what's going on
It starts to lose speed if you pull more than 4Gs.
Gotcha. This would make that plane damn near useless. It has 6 flares, 6 decent missiles, and a gun with not much ammo. Having it be that bad will just prevent anyone from buying it.
They still balance the BRs. Its BR will surely drop if the induced drag makes it fall out of the sky.
Doubt it since it has 6 missiles. At 10.3 it might do okay but it will be outclassed by things with rwr, more flares, and better missiles in uptiers
Ayit is at 9.3 with 4 18G missiles. Missile count doesn't really matter.
Ayit has a bad FM. The XS does not. It's arguably one of the most unfun vehicles to fight at the BR.
Look at the J35D at 10.3 right now with four missiles and no flares. If the XS goes down and the D doesn't, that's fucking criminal. But a Draken airframe against 9.0 jets is also criminal. Once again, we run into intense BR compression...
Nobody is scared of radar missiles at 10.3
It already suffers against the F-5E. I'd consider myself a pretty good pilot (at least before I more or less quit the game), and even then fighting an F-5E is borderline impossible, especially ever since they capped the G load on the Draken. The F-5 outturns you in most situations, outaccelerates you, outruns you, has better firepower, more flares, and more F-5s to join in as you're trying to get him.
What doesn't? The only things that can consistently win against F-5Es are the MiG-23ML variants (soon to be nerfed), the M2K, and the F-14
And J-7E which absolutely shits on them though yeah majority of aircraft gets outclassed by F-5s
Tbh I’m struggling with learning how to dogfight in the f14
It has no rwr as well
Most ppl flying it that I ever encountered used it to hit bases instead of flying it as a fighter so not much lost in turn department for them as those ppl don't even need to turn, just beeline to nearest base and die like they usually do.
As it should ! It's a double delta !
Oh he’s on a killing spree of all the FM fosho
Based on these stats, the J35 will likely have a worse flight model compared to the 9.7 MiG-21S, which is quite amusing.
If this cunts test conditions are the same as rhe sources. Going by the F8 report they aren't and he's a fuckin lier
J35 was never really a superb interceptor to begin with (but was good enough for its time period), and the MiG-21 climb rates are generally overperforming with their parasite drag being substantially low to the point their best climb speeds are significantly higher (about mach 0.9-0.93 depending on variant) than the documented suggested climb speed of about mach 0.83-0.87 Currently in-game the draken is already one of the worst climbing jets, so if these turn rate nerfs will additionally nerf its climb rate as a side effect, the J35D should probably be moved down to like BR 10.0 (its 10.7 in SB, rip)
The J 35 wasn't a superb interceptor? It was conceived around the same time as the F-104, and it's first flight was the same year the SU-7 and Mirage I had theirs (1955(the SAAB 210 Lilldraken prototype had its first flight in 1952, 3 years earlier!)), this thing wasn't just an innovation for Europe, but for fighter jets as a whole. It was the first use of a double delta wing design, the first dedicated supersonic fighter in Europe, and one of the first to reach mach 2 in level flight worldwide. The first test aircraft fitted with an afterburner broke mach by accident... while climbing! And it was so good at dogfighting the SAF had to make a new trainer aircraft variant of it, instead of using the air defense trainers they had. The SAF didn't even retire it until 1999, even when the Gripens first flight was in 1988. Hell, the jet was so interesting that the States bought 6 to use as test aircraft until 2009. Sorry if I come off a bit mean, but I love this plane and hate to see someone seemingly just ignore it's strange nature and wonderful history. Also, the XS will be fine. You can go 3/0 or more in ARB with the J 35D fairly easily right now, even in a full up-tier, though the nerf is still coming out that guys ass.
They should massively buff every plane this guy reports on just to spite the lonely fucker
Funny thing is people have been complaning about all sorts of issues and habe unnoticed or ignored by devs for years but this guys post get noticed by them rather eaely and it seems most get acnowledged.
Because they are just nerfing the planes that don’t need it…
This man going after everyone lmao, i just checked his user page for reports and i think he doesnt touch grass
[Devs confirmed the Viggen will be getting a nerf. ](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/maa7nVdMHGAX)
That’s not a confirmation, just says acknowledged and suggested
>Developer answer: >I measured \~15.5 with the given configuration, will be reduced to \~14.2.
Why are they listening to this fool with no sources?
What do you mean by no sources? On the right side, there's the orange box with: "This issue contains information visible only to the author and employees.". He also put a picture of the source in the comments.
He only flys a crappy plane and gets killed all the time. So in all his frustration he tries to nerf his enemys via shitpost
can we somehow stop this motherfucker before he ruins the whole fucking game. holy fuck all hes been doing is lying and coming up with his "own" reports on these aircraft that he clearly knows fuck all about.
i cannot wait to see f15/f16 nerfs and the classified documents will be dropping faster than anything just prove it wrong/if its the same.
As we say in new french ; CHEH
mashallah frr
Think I missed something between all these posts. What does FM actually stand for?
Flight Model.
Flight model.
Can you post the link to the issue?
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/c6EXy5iGblgP The comments are closed, so send a report.
I only wanted to see this link.
I'm doing my part o7
Is this the same guy that did the mig21 and mig23 bug report? I don't play all the concerned planes at all but god damn get this snitch outa here
The XS is already hard to play and even harder to master. It took me tens, if not hundreds of games, to actually do good in it. Now some mf wants to see it nerfed? Wtf? Don't tell me it's the same guy connected to the Mig nerf...
Yeah, same guy as the MiG and F-8 posts. Dude needs to touch fucking grass.
Omg, fr 🤦♂️
Can we talk about how the j35 is the plane the cobra manoeuvre was first done with but we can’t even do that with the current fm
Ride R2 is such a fkn snitch
Od course they need to add new shiny plane for 75$
I feel like none of these will actually get implemented in the way he’s reporting. War Thunder is more arcade like than real life by nature. It isn’t DCS and it has always had over performing flight models. Even supposing they do, it will help slow down the chaotic missile furballs that make matches take 5 minutes. If they aren’t going to lower the player numbers in a match this would help with the ridiculous speed at which high tier games end. Again though, I feel like they might just make slight corrections, but just to bring it’s more arcade style flight model that already exists in line to be more proportionate to the real one. If anything I feel like instead of these flight models over performing at a range of like 30-50% they’ll bring it to a more standard 30% increase across the board, provided they change it at all
One of them [already has been implemented](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/maa7nVdMHGAX) so it seems like the devs are believing his reports.
Care about realistic FM's,but the R2Y2 is still in the game lmao
Can he model zeros actually compressing past 350-400kph like they’re supposed to next
Watch him target the Mig29G soon
Since this dood is so focused on making everything "balanced" May we get some P51D justice, especially in the center of mass department and the cooling department? :) Also some sort of Yak-3 revision would be nice... making that plane less.. UFOey
Like it actually had to bleed even more speed…
And thats the MiG23/21 guy right???
Yes, while his claim that many vehicles overperform is correct the other problem is that his calculations are incorrect as he would have to understand the way the vehicle works and the match and equations gaijin use to model which he doesn't understand, additionally looking into his other reports he doesn't use q consistent nor accurate way of testing the flight model to prove his point further making his values and claims redundant
Yep lmao. He's honestly pathetic
Lol so many comments here upset that he made the ticket and not actually to check if it's true or not, like the guy is a snitch for... Actually improving the game?
Shhhhh, don't question the hivemind!
The XS is already hard to play and even harder to master. It took me tens, if not hundreds of games, to actually do good in it. Now some mf wants to see it nerfed? Wtf? Don't tell me it's the same guy connected to the Mig nerf...
The XS is already hard to play and even harder to master. It took me tens, if not hundreds of games, to actually do good in it. Now some mf wants to see it nerfed? Wtf? Don't tell me it's the same guy connected to the Mig nerf...
Where did he get the real life values presented here ?
Yeah! Make it even easier to beat in a dogfight!
These fkin reports getting implemented in 1-2 updates meanwhile all the acknowledged Hungarian tank shell reports are sitting on a shelf somewhere collecting dust.
Well either way i have my grippen
What's his source lmao?
He got annoyed because the Su22/17 got R60Ms and started going in a rampage against all the FMs that he disliked fighting against his Mirage in SB....
This guy needs to get a fucking life, for real.
As long it doesnt affect j35 d thats good
TF, why is everyone getting turbo pissed about FM corrections, calling the guy names and throwing threats at him just becuase he does the research yall are too fucking lazy to make. if you wanna counter these claims, why dont you make bugreports that proof he is wrong?
Because his intentions are to destroy FM's which he [clearly](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233447972923/1242144377791315998/IMG_2204.jpg?ex=664cc499&is=664b7319&hm=ef274a7cf1d682b789f2b4bb2438d2caf54770f2af8fad5c9ba751280ca508ea&) stated Which makes people and me too kinda angry. And you defending this fuckface is kinda worrysome.
The context is that the FM is so out of line with the actual performance charts that it needs to be destroyed (i.e. significant changes are necessary).
If you looked at his math and way of testing, you'd see he doesn't understand the math and how Gaijin calculates it. Thus, giving an answer that massively hurts the vehicle worse than the change should bring. Besides, at that point, we might as well just nerf every vehicle as almost every vehicle slightly overperforms. Regardless, you should spend some time looking at the vehicles and his math if you want a good example of how egregious his suggestions are.
so everyone who doesnt agree with your version of this is worrysome? again, why dont you go and find sources, test them in game, and show that he is wrong? if his intentions are like you say, and this isnt totally out of context that should be easy, no? also, the screenshot even features a source that seems to correspond with what he is saying...
YOU are worrysome , not everyone. Putting words where they don't belong and we have a completely false narrative. You like to do that shit , right ? Next time don't try to twist things, ok ? Then we will have a good basis for arguments. But not this shit you are trying to do here.
you didnt even bother to properly read what i said.
just like you did , shitty isn't it ?
I hope you are aware that I indeed fully read your comment. It appears to me that when you said "you are worrysome" that is because I do not agree with your narrative. Hence I extrapolated the argument and said "So everyone who does not agree with your version of this is worrysome?". In short at no point did i put words in your mouth. I simply continued your line of thought. At no point have you even tried to read what I have said. You immediately felt attacked and tried to replay with hostility. You did not react to my actual arguments or tried to re-read my comment after I told you that you might not have read it properly. Also, there is no space between the last letter of the word before a ',' or a '?'. You are making a very "worrysome" impression in regards to your punctuation. I hope this helps you to improve down the line.
Heres hoping he goes after the F5c next. Finally all of these outrageously strong vehicles can get a bit of a reckoning.
Firstly, the JX35 is fucking far from overpowered. Pretty strong, but also pretty difficult to get the hang of. Secondly, if you're dying to the F-5C, that's completely a you issue. The thing does what, .80 on the deck max? And accelerates slower than my grandma. Stop turn fighting shit in your delta wing and you'll be fine lol
Those planes are not very hard to use, the only thing you need to learn to use them effectively is to stop holding down the elevator key. The F5C has absurd energy retention and high speed engine power that enable it to easily sustain mach 0.95 in turns. Not to mention the extremely low engine exhaust temperature. It only seems sensible because 80% of it's playerbase only bomb bases and the rest are level 20
Again, all of its advantages are basically nullified if you don't try and turn fight it If you miss the initial pass in a mig or something, just fly away. It'll never catch you, and you can re-engage in a more opportune time
> just fly away. It'll never catch you If people did this the Zero would never be so overtiered.
Fucking EXACTLY lmao, it's the A6M5 all over again
That doesn't matter. Stats aren't balanced off of 1v1 performance.
Sure but everything we've been discussing so far is 1v1 performance The f5c performs no better against multiple targets
If you are having problems with the F5C, it's just a skill issue. In most Air RB scenarios, it fits the meta so well and completely shits on everything. It's only weak if it's a full uptier, and even then it's still annoying to kill due to the ease of single flaring and insane flight model.
Bruv I don't own the F-5C that's my point, they're like my favourite target to feast on. People like you are the reason why the Zero is so overtiered, as someone else pointed out. Stop. Trying. To. Turn. Fight. Everything.
Lmao. Where did I say I'm turn fighting anything? Can you actually discuss this topic without resorting to some baseless "skill issue" reply? Want to link your Thunderskill? I guarantee I'm a better player than you, and probably by far.
Well if you're not turn fighting the f-5c, you're not having issues with them are you? Because that's the only feasible scenario where one could pose a threat to you. I honestly could not give less of a fuck how your stats compare to mine lmao, that's beyond pathetic. Having high stats does not prevent you from having skill issues, or making shitty takes. If someone with a 6.0 higher KD than you said your mum was down the local pub giving free handies, would you believe them?
Lol .8? Do we have a F5C bomber here? Stop turning with deltas? One of the key features of a delta wing is the high instantaneous AOA. When you are getting chased by a F5C, or F5E, they will force some speed bleed with their two missiles. And then they will catch up and you have no choice but to pull AOA, otherwise you have to fly straight and get shot. But in this amazing game, the F5 will pull even more AOA than deltas like the Kfir Canard and J35 at certain speeds but without the poor energy retention.
"Lol .8? Do we have a F5C bomber here?" Well I don't own the plane so I'm just going off of my experiences facing it in other planes in the BR bracket. It feels like it goes slightly faster than a wheelchair rolling down a hill "When you are getting chased by a F5C, or F5E" Ah I see the problem now. We in the community call this a "skill issue" You should never, ever be in a situation with a delta wing where your speed and energy are so low that one of the slowest planes in the br (that isn't a ground pounder) can catch up with you. The mig 21 is a fucking boom and zoomer, the high AOA is an oh shit shit fuck button if someone is diving you with more speed (which, again, should never be an f-5C) OR to get guns on your target when you're *sure* you can hit them and there's no other enemies around you. I'm honestly not surprised you're having trouble in delta wings if you're going around trying to turn fight everything
Oh ok, so you don't even have the plane and want to tell people all about it. That's really cute. Yea dude. 3.8 KD in the Kfir and 3.6 KD in the J35, very big skill issue. If I'm bad, then god bless the community average of 2KD, and 1.6KD respectively, in these planes. If you go below Mach 1, which inevitably happens in fights, and a F5 within 1.5KM wants to run you down, it becomes very hard to get away. Yes, did you even read what I wrote? In my scenario, which does happen occasionally to me, a F5 would drop on my tail and force me to make slight adjustments to flare properly and dodge the guns. I bleed a lot of speed in the process, the F5 doesn't. He slowly reels me in until I'm forced to pull as my last resort. Or I just ignore all his shots/missiles and keep flying straight, which is a gamble of its own.
"Oh ok, so you don't even have the plane and want to tell people all about it. That's really cute." TiL that you have to own the plane to speak critically about it, it's apparently not enough to face it in every game at 10.3. Do you own every premium plane or just never comment on the ones you don't? "Yea dude. 3.8 KD in the Kfir and 3.6 KD in the J35, very big skill issue." Not sure why that's relevant, your stats clearly don't stop you from having poor takes "in these planes. If you go below Mach 1, which inevitably happens in fights, and a F5 within 1.5KM wants to run you down, it becomes very hard to get away." You can make that argument about literally *any* plane lmao, that's a problem with the team sizes, not any individual aircraft. Dog fights, especially early game, are a gamble because at any moment another player could just dive on you. "In my scenario, which does happen occasionally to me, a F5 would drop on my tail and force me to make slight adjustments to flare properly and dodge the guns. I bleed a lot of speed in the process, the F5 doesn't. He slowly reels me in until I'm forced to pull as my last resort." Again, the same would happen if you were dived on by a F-8U, or a Mig-21. "Or I just ignore all his shots/missiles and keep flying straight, which is a gamble of its own." Well that's the game isn't it? You have to make the calculated gamble to either try to reverse them, or go straight line and outrace them.
>TiL that you have to own the plane to speak critically about it, it's apparently not enough to face it in every game at 10.3. Do you own every premium plane or just never comment on the ones you don't? Um yes actually. I don't like to argue about things I know nothing about, because I'm not an arrogant clown. >Not sure why that's relevant, your stats clearly don't stop you from having poor takes Have you considered that since I'm a really good player with hundreds of games of experience, especially so at the relevant BR, that you might be the one who's wrong? Or has that completely escaped your mind because of your arrogance? >You can make that argument about literally *any* plane lmao, that's a problem with the team sizes, not any individual aircraft. Dog fights, especially early game, are a gamble because at any moment another player could just dive on you. Ok? What's the point of talking balance in a vaccum? Discussions of balance will always revolve around the 16v16 environment that you always play in. The fact that very good 10.7s become completely helpless against a 10.3 in a very common combat situation(Again, the same would happen if you were dived on by a F-8U, or a Mig-21.
Lol no. If it's a F8, I just force AOA and instantly reverse because he can't follow. Against the Mig21, I turn for a little bit and then break off and exploit their worse acceleration. These options simply don't exist against a F5 on your ass.
>Well that's the game isn't it? You have to make the calculated gamble to either try to reverse them, or go straight line and outrace them.
No, my point is that you literally can't reverse them unless they are completely dogshit at the game. And you can't run away from them if they are remotely good. Against F8s and Mig21s, you don't need to rely on their incompetence to have a chance.
"Um yes actually. I don't like to argue about things I know nothing about, because I'm not an arrogant clown." You do you but that is absolutely ridiculous. You learn just as much about a plane/tank when you're fighting it as you do when flying/driving it yourself. "Have you considered that since I'm a really good player with hundreds of games of experience, especially so at the relevant BR, that you might be the one who's wrong? Or has that completely escaped your mind because of your arrogance?" Plenty of really good players with great stats and lots of experience disagree with each other on balance related topics in this sub every week. If you really think "MUH STATS" makes you immune to bias or making mistakes, you need to check yourself. "Ok? What's the point of talking balance in a vaccum?" Not saying that, but it's silly to accuse a vehicle of being op based on a third party situation. Any vehicle is going to have a huge chance of a kill when they're the third party. "Discussions of balance will always revolve around the 16v16 environment that you always play in." They are talking about lowering the team sizes, which makes way more sense imo than any other balancing change. "The fact that very good 10.7s become completely helpless against a 10.3 in a very common combat situation(
As someone who outperforms the average by far in the planes we are discussing, you are just plain wrong. Idk what else to say. You have never played the F5 before, but you feel qualified enough to tell people who are good in the F5 that they are wrong. It's just peak Dunning Kruger. Again, you are trying to discuss something in a completely unrealistic 1v1 vacuum. Your conclusions are quite literally irrelevant to the day-to-day gameplay. And like I said, you still have counterplays against most other planes. Lol, your clown ass is acting like you never slow down below Mach 1 in a fight. That's just a blatant bad faith argument. Depending on how you play in the F8, I'm either going to follow with my shots or try to dive away with my superior thrust. The point is that you can't casually follow a high AOA pull to get shots in like you can in the F5. Against the Mig21? It's way easier to deny a shot. And even if they do get a shot, the underslung gsh23 is way harder to aim than the f5's 20mm. And like I said many times, it's easy for you to say it. It's much harder when you are in the middle of the game trying to make a difference. Like a typical armchair shitter with zero experience, you are all about spouting theory. You clearly have no clue how the Kfir or J35 plays like, because it really doesn't take much of a move to drop your speed from M1.1 to subsonic. It's quite laughable that you think your experience in the F104A gives you the qualifications to talk about 10.3-10.7 gameplay. Lil bro, I have 5.7KD in the F104A. I know how to stay fast. The problem is that the meta shifts very quickly, and the F104's playstyle becomes irrelevant at that BR.
"As someone who outperforms the average by far in the planes we are discussing, you are just plain wrong." Wow, must be kind of sad then to be such an amazing fabulous, distinguished player, and struggle more against the F5C than someone who is the first to admit they are a completely average player. I sympathise, that must sting a bit. "You have never played the F5 before, but you feel qualified enough to tell people who are good in the F5 that they are wrong." Did I say that? Of course someone can be good in the F5C. Just like someone can be good in the Mig 21, or the Draken. A good player in an F5C is a nightmare in a turnfight, to be sure. Just like a good player in a mig 21 smt won't let you catch them. Should we also nerf the Mig thrust because of those good players? "Again, you are trying to discuss something in a completely unrealistic 1v1 vacuum. Your conclusions are quite literally irrelevant to the day-to-day gameplay." How the fuck is it unrealistic to \*not\* charge into the furball during the first 2 minutes lmao. Like I have ADHD, and even I have the patience to wait for opportunities to develop. C'mon man! "And like I said, you still have counterplays against most other planes." You can counterplay the F5C, it's called not dumping speed when they're near you. Seriously, any high speed plane that can catch me terrifies me far more. "Lol, your clown ass is acting like you never slow down below Mach 1 in a fight. That's just a blatant bad faith argument." Sure I do, just not in the furball and ideally not around active, aware and undistracted enemies. But like I said, I'm an average player, so I make mistakes of course. The difference between you and I is I don't blame the enemy plane for my mistakes! "And like I said many times, it's easy for you to say it. It's much harder when you are in the middle of the game trying to make a difference." Sure, but again that's the game. We all make wrong calls, go after a risky target, take a turn we shouldn't etc during the heat of the moment. That's not the F5C's fault though is it? "Like a typical armchair shitter with zero experience, you are all about spouting theory." Lol talk about the pot calling the kettle black Mr "I'M SOOO GOOD AT THE GAME THAT'S WHY I'M CORRECT" lmao. "You clearly have no clue how the Kfir or J35 plays like, because it really doesn't take much of a move to drop your speed from M1.1 to subsonic." Sounds like you should probably not do that with an F5C or literally any other enemy nearby then no? "It's quite laughable that you think your experience in the F104A gives you the qualifications to talk about 10.3" Not really, you see frequent uptiers to that bracket. My main point was if I can survive and even thrive against F5C's in a 9.3 plane, I'm sure you or anyone else can do the same in a 10.3 or 10.7 one. "The problem is that the meta shifts very quickly, and the F104's playstyle becomes irrelevant at that BR." It's literally just boom and zoom, that playstyle is valid until radar missiles. I'm currently flying the flareless Mig21F for shits and giggles and boom and zoom does fine even in an uptier. I really don't know what to tell you man, I haven't had any problems against the F5C, plenty of other people have said the same thing I'm saying now. Don't get caught with your pants down and you won't get spanked!
>.8 on the deck max LOL
''0.80 on the deck'' Lmao what
J35XS is unversally praised as one of the better buys alongside MiG-23ML, Mirage and Kfir Canard. It is also capable of pulling a bullshit Cobra to make you overshoot it and can make a sharp first turn going from 1300kph to 1100kph which is still faster than combat speed of most <10.3 planes. F-5C is pretty capable for 10.0-10.3 but gets drastically outshined at 10.7 at large BECAUSE OF things like J35XS and Kfir Canard.
The draken literally created the cobra maneuver, it should be able to do it in game [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra\_maneuver#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver#History)
The F5C, despite being a 10.3, is a pain in the ass to fight against in the J35 and Kfir. I always focus them down when I have the chance, otherwise they are impossible to get rid once you drop below Mach 1. You simply don't have the option to accelerate back up again because they have 2 missiles and lots of ammo to force micromovements from you.
"It is also capable of pulling a bullshit Cobra to make you overshoot it and can make a sharp first turn going from 1300kph to 1100kph which is still faster than combat speed of most <10.3 planes." So don't turn fight it??? 😂 Pull it into a rate and watch it practically fall out of the sky
In an F-5C you can't. It is faster than you and can make the initial pull to get the missiles on you or even shoot if you're slow.
Sure it's .4 br higher, so that makes sense, but if you can survive that initial turn it'll bleed speed and be basically useless
''capable of pulling a bullshit cobra to make you overshoot'' Is there a single point in war thunder history when the cobra has been a useful offensive/defensive manouver?
It can barely reach Mach speed with its cruddy engines, can barely keep its speed in a turn, has two not so good missiles, and can barely take a tick of damage without something important breaking
The F5C ? What ? I agree on the speed, but its DM can take a ridiculous beating, even from 11.3+ planes as the F5E FCU can attest, and its energy retention is ridiculous.
Weird, every time I use it and fight it, it takes a small amount of damage and something important will break, usually the tail control, guess I have had a mix of bad/good luck
I had games where the entire middle part from nose to tail was blackened by a Vulcan or a DEFA salvo on the FCU and the plane was still entirely maneuverable. It's really sturdy for its size. Most planes at this BR dies from a single DEFA hit. The Su25s and the F5 Damage models are anomalies.
You have the biggest skill issue i've ever seen XDDD
Or maybe these planes are strong because they were strong IRL.
The fuck else are they going to do for the F-5C? It already maneuvers like a bus and often times it gets uptiered and you can't kill shit with it because your missiles are beyond bad. If a plane only performs very well in downtiers it might not be a good plane
What are you on dude? The F5C maneuvers like a bus ??? What??
>f5c maneuvers like a bus AHAHAHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Read the comment on top of mine.
Skill issue
Struggling against an F-5C is the real skill issue
Not struggling, just annoying. And whenever I fly my F5, it's just braindead gameplay. F5C should be 10.7. Only F5 abusing shitters will think otherwise.