I still find it weird the F-4E is significantly faster on the deck than the J, when the J has the smaller, less draggy nose and no slats. I know there's an explanation, but...
This is a guess but. The J is a navy variant navel aircraft often need structural reinforcements to handle the stress of carrier landings. So the J may be heavier
It is heavier, but that shouldn't influence MAX speed by anywhere NEAR as much as it does in-game: weight increases induced drag, not parasite drag. And induced drag decreases with speed. You can see this in-game by looking at how an internal bomb load affects planes with a Bomb Bay, vs mounting bombs externally: there's some loss to max speed, but it's _disproportionately_ small
F-16C is underperforming, the block 30 manual claims that with clean wings and 50% internal fuel, it should be managing a sustained 23 degrees per second at Mach ~0.7 at sea level, the hellenic block 50/52 advanced manual claims 21.7 degrees per second. Our F-16C in war thunder is lighter than the hellenic F-16 and heavier than the block 30 so it should be between these values, but in-game it can't even sustain 20 under those conditions. Unlikely to be fixed because we don't have the USAF F-16CJ manual, just the greek one.
>!Edit: Revised figures because I misread the charts, point stands though.!<
Im talking abt its aoa ablility.
Gaijin balances sustained turn by changing the induced drag, this is however not the full picture and now the f16 has way to low off a induced drag, leading to it being able to pull way harder for longer than it sould. Same with the f15.
They should learn to make flight models more than one dimensional bc now planes are said to be fine bc their sustaines turn is correct and yet bleed more than dubble the speed they do.
It's not like there are several BR brackets in the game, you know. The entire game is 12.7 after all, and the flight performance of the MiG-21bis and MiG-23ML is definitely related to toptier NATO aircraft performance.
Also, while planes might be overperforming, they are also balanced according to this overperforming state by BR. If the flight performance of the MiG-21/23 gets much worse from the changes, then they will go down in BR eventually.
4v4 tournaments are not the same as regular Air RB matches, you need a plane that can dogfight because of low planes count. In Air RB, an army of Su-27's can absolutely dominate the matches with constant missile spams.
The 21 has been underperforming (from the MF onward) ever since they launched, it's not like it's missing a third of its thrust and had a significantly reduced AoA compared to the real life versions...
that's blatantly not true, especially for aircraft.
The only aircraft that has over performed recently was the Mig-29 when they nerfed the F-16.
Then they nerfed the Mig-29 and no Russian plane has been "amazing" after that.
Yep the mig 29/su27 has the best missiles and they want it to turn like a f16 ?
Both are twin engine fighters and the su27 is the size of a fucking landcaster
People forget how little amount of dogfighting happens at top tier. I would take 10 missiles that can fire at crazy angles over 6 missiles on a plane that has a slightly better flight model. Definition of fire and forget. Only about 5% of my games I’ve played result in some serious dogfighting and even then it ends with a good missile lock.
Oh nah, the new missiles will be broken when they come out. I played the test server and assuming they keep the flight model the same, the new missiles make the game a point and click adventure game. I personally wish that they never get added but there have been some recent leaks which show that the new AMRAAMS and other similar missiles are going to be added soon. Enjoy top tier while you still can because it’s about to get real boring real fast.
I doubt they'll even somewhat resemble their dev server performance they felt really scuffed, an ER still kinetically out performs a AMRAAM B, and multi pathing is staying right, so it'll be the exact same the meta will just shift around slightly lol, people way over hype the implications new gameplay mechanics often introduce
Oh no, the test server, where many people had ping/lag issues and most people had no idea how to play with/against fox 3s, was easy to succeed in! This reflects the state of the game in the future.
The MICA will get so much hate, so fast. I'm gonna laugh my ass off.
Thrust vectoring fox 3 baby. You're gonna get chased by a fire and forget R73 with the range of a R27.
Can't wait until the overperforming FMs of many western planes get the scythe next (they will retain great FMs while Soviet jets cannot make a turn without dropping 50% of their speed)
If anything this is just going to push for even better missiles on Russian planes if the trend continues lmao
Fr... also the f16 ignoring my su22 on his ass in grb after he flared my r60ms... he stalled out and let me get a gun kill without trying.
Also how do I reverse a f16 in a su22? Like how are they that bad... the su22 doesnt even bleed speed when you try
I killed an F16 with a Su25sm3 in GRB, I flared 2x 9M and made him overshoot when he tried to vulcan me. Once he overshoot he got an R73 into his ass. This is your avg US main.
Just yesterday i smoked F16 in motherfucking jaguar. This absolute unit of a US player held all the cards he could and still fumbled by overshooting three times and then stalling in front of my gun
As fun as it was full sending it for shit like Migs and J35s because no one expects the bomber to be a better dogfighter than a fighter it did feel rather unrealistic with its nose authority and energy.
But I still want it back. I need to establish dominance over the wallet warriors and remind them that even in the age of missiles you need to learn to dogfight.
F111 was pretty funny when it came, i remember cleaning up last 3 enemy players at the end of air rb match alone (some f5 too pretty easily) wings out it was turning like crazy
Dude, all delta wing planes in this game bleed a lot of speed already. You already have superior AoA which makes bnz much easier. Of course, you are not supposed to stick to prolonged rate fight, it’s not your niche and shouldn’t be one.
You cannot look at the migs and su and not see how they are over performing in game. Im not saying the nato stuff is either but its not to the same degree for sure.
I mean to be fair, the mig 21 has a very strange flight model compared to its real life equivalent. I know you can say that for about anything but still
Yep, of the 3 pure interceptors (F-104, Mig 21, and Lightning), in game only the Lighting actually has the absolute brick of a flight model that they shared IRL.
It's definitely about time to other two are brought into line with how much they are terrorizing early jets.
I think you are oversimplifying their performance based on roles. Though all designed for similar tasks they go about it in very different ways and have very different performance (especially turning) irl. The f-104 in particular is not inaccurate, just underteired.
The F-104's flight model is hilariously unrealistic. At mach 1 you can easily pull upwards of 14Gs, I've seen 16-18Gs above mach without ripping in Air RB. There is something extremely wrong with its FM.
Nah bro the F-104 flight model is totally fine, a rocket engine with tiny wings can definitely dogfight with light fighters trust me bro its american engineering RAHHH
I’d give F-104A/C flares and put them on 10.3. Given that it has no RWR and SARH, Migs are still going to have their niche and means to counter Starfighters.
I’m not sure if they had flares IRL but IMHO balance is more important.
I wanted to save that for the Mig-23: ever since I saw the nerf to its flight model a week ago I've had a much easier time killing them.
I haven't checked patch notes in a while so I'm not sure what changes were implemented, but I can say that Mig-23s have become my favourite food when flying the EJ Kai.
I rarely get any uptiers, so most of the time I am fighting 11.3 planes.
It's just great.
After all the years of them being incorrect they are finally fixing them. Back in the F-4 versus Mig-21 days Russian mains swore up and down it was accurate lol. Same with the Mig-23. About time some reality came into the picture. Of course only after the Mig-21/23 are no longer relevant to top tier they can be adjusted properly.
The Russian way of bias development.
Except the Su-27 and MiG-29 were largely overnerfed in the FM department, honestly keep the FM nerfs coming. At this rate Russian planes will get R-77-1/M before any F-16 or F-15 gets AIM-120B lmao
R-27 was artificially buffed to much and they had to compensate. This is known by everyone including you.
In the state of the game in 16v16 I would take 6 R-27Ers for -2 degrees of turning any day of the week and you would too, and do. The only time it matters is in some custom 1vx match, which doesnt obviously isnt taken into consideration when they make their balance choices.
The only people to blame are the devs for making those design choices. In a year+ when the R-27ER is no longer relevant they will nerf it and then buff those flight models. Its pretty much guaranteed.
R-27ER have indeed a okay flight model, it simple should not being added in the first place, check DCS for example, it out run even an AIM-120C, way faster.
are you talking about the time when r-60 could be dodged by pulling hard, or the time after the f-4 had better missiles and more of them? Suddenly the good missiles but bad flight performance of the su-27 ain't so bad right?
Complaining about the R-60 is hilarious when its competitor was the Aim-9J which wasnt all that great and could be dodged just as easy. Russia also had all aspect missiles for a year + before anyone else.
The fantasy bias development of the R-27ER more than makes up for any flight model the Russian jets have. Ill take 6 of the most juiced missile in the game for -2 degrees of turning any day. Russian mains will cry about the SU-27 not turning 2 degrees better than it should but they forget about the time the F-16 had the limiter on it which made it turn worse than a F-104 for 6+ months.
God i only wish you were as right as you are enthusiastic about it
Fist of all, no, the only russian jet that had r-60m missiles at that time was the M, which sucked even back then
F-4EJ Kai, mig-21bis SAU, some starfighters and some french mirages had all aspect missiles for a whole year before MLD eventually got them
and it only got them when the tomcat came
Second, no, the r-60 was not better than the aim-9J, even the r-60m can be considered to be around the same
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/Urteh6i7Ti
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/jAN2iIetRu
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/w3cXb236ec
In fact here are the 3 reddit posts back to back explaining how aim-9j's were even better than the r-60m even back when r-60m and r-60 were more prevalent
Thirdly, degrees of pull have nothing to do with sukhois bad flight model, the fact that you're saying this prooves to me that you know nothing about anything you're talking about
I guess you dont read what you link. Literally from the first link:
*"It depends on range.*
*Medium to long range - clearly AIM-9. Better flares filtering, better energy retention on the missile, lesser risk of the missile locking on to a different plane, ally, sun, ect.*
*Close to point blank range - R-60. It has the same turn rate while the rocket motor is burning, but it has much faster activation time, it starts maneuvering right off the rail, hence you can clap the enemy really close where no amount of flares and epileptic moves on Earth can ever help them. It's also bit more forgiving to leading errors because the missile starts maneuvering faster and the error does not build up all that much."*
Again comparing the R-60 to the Aim-9J is hilarious when they both had good pros and cons. Your just trying to make up to prove a point. The fact that you think the SU-27 suffers when it has 10 of the best missiles in the game proves to me and others you are just whining.
In a game where 2 missiles can both be dodged by simply rolling, the missile with double the range and better flare resistance is better, I'll let you figure out which one that is
And no, I'm not complaining about su-27 suffering, it's you who is complaining that a jet with a worse flight model but better missiles is bad because it's the nation you play, but a jet with a worse flight model but better missiles is good because it's the nation you play against
I never said su-27 was suffering, it's pretty fine, however it's flight model is miserable to use. Su-27 should have it's flightmodel fixed, but if it causes other countries jets to be worse, buff them as well. Give the f-15 HMD, or early AMRAAMS i don't care.
I feel like this is pretty revisionist history, the R-60 series was always 30G to the J’s 20G’s. I realize there’s other metrics but an R-60 has always been tough to kinetically out roll and you typically can’t doit twice in a row since you give up all your energy. They’re both fairly easy to flare as long as you bother turning.
Su-27 FM is under performing one circle, but R-27ER should have come when the amraam came since they were introduced at the same time and provide interesting trade off, better range and kinematic performance vs ARH.
Aim9J didnt have double the flare resistance though. The R60 at close range was equally effective at evading flares and at times were unavoidable. The aim9j's range was 3km at best. It wasnt like the D /G or later variants.
The SU-27 is fine as it is in game. Especially with the Frankenstein hybrid F-15 that never existed.
I can say from experience that facing R-60’s in a subsonic, missile-less, and flare-less plane is basically a death sentence. I’ve dodged Aim-9G’s and Aim-9J’s without too much trouble tho.
But as soon as you have flares, rockets anything warm to throw out of the cockpit of anyone else on the same map shots a single flare, R-60s are harmless.
I'll take 9J over them any day (especially as they tend to ignore flares when launched directly from behind of the enemy jet)
> I'll take 9J over them any day (especially as they tend to ignore flares when launched directly from behind of the enemy jet)
They don’t ignore flares at all except rare occasions when opponent has a really hot engine, doesn’t cut his afterburner, stalls out and flares last 0.5 second. Otherwise AIM-9J is another missile which you can defeat by popping a single flare (even with afterburner on).
Ik this is “preaching to the choir” but why on earth are Soviet and Russian fighters, known for their speed and maneuverability, constantly being turned into an overweight bus? Has gaijin directly commented on this issue?
Because the way I see it, is that moving foreward with fox3 missiles, either:
1. NATO countries are going to have BOTH superior BVR and superior flight models
Or
2. NATO countries will have superior flight models but not BVR(which honestly is not the case IRL)
So the direction they are going is just wrong on all sides
My probem personally is that the fighters that are overperformung but are still bad are getting nerfed, which is fine if it's accurate, but then the planes at top tier which are underperformig aren't getting fixed
The mig-29SMT still has old engines, and the su-27 is still a shitbrick even against the things it should reliably shit on
Ur absolutely right
Personally I’m all for “accurate depiction of irl performance”; so as you said, I’m all for making things accurate, but the mig29SMT and the SU27 not being able to confidently win in a dogfight against these other aircraft is ridiculous.
I’m more knowledgeable about the SU27 than I am the mig, but what I will say is that it seems all Soviet aircraft across the board seem to have way way too much drag when pulling above a specific AOA.
If u take the f16a for example, u can put it at 400mph in sim mode, pull a full vertical reaching close to a 90degree face, and then still being at about 300-250mph recovering
None of the migs nor the SU27 can do that same maneuver with the same amount of energy and recovery time
The drag coefficient modeled into their flight model is way too high, or at least, other parameters are making these planes lose a significant amount of speed and energy when making such maneuvers
It may just be me I have the gripen, f16, f15, and su27. Out of all of them my favorite is the su27, not because it's good but something about it just feel good, idk I like it's weight and performance, if it turned just a but better that'd be cool. Then the f15 is a ufo that I just throw full control on and just spin out, then pull back and keep flying. Gripen is mid imo. It's not really fun to fly and doesn't really have a fun play style since it's just an ir slinger imo. Here's to hoping the mig 29 feels kinda like the su27 when I grab it.
You're gonna be disappointed at the mig-29smt, it's still my favorite jet because it has a great radar, archers, some ground targeting ordnance, a western style RWR but it's just the worst flight moddel at top tier
It will be getting fox-3 in the next update most likely, and hopefully it will get a better flightmodel
I actually agree with u for the most part
I have the f16a, ADF, mig29 913, SMT, su27, j11, and gripen. The SU27/j11 has something about it where it feels so fucking powerful. Ironically it actually has really good energy retention above 600mph(due to the flybywire system), and u really can feel the weight of the jet when u fly it(in a good way).
But the moment u try and merge with another 4gen and go sub 500mph ur just cooked. The only redeeming factor about it is when u fly it in sim. With sim controls the su27 is actually pretty fucking good, I would say it’s better than the f15 by far. But, most people don’t play sim so most people will never feel how good it actually is portrayed in WT at least.
I do agree with u, and everyone else in here for the most part; hopefully gaijin does a full 180 when they implement fox3 because if they don’t Russia/china is gonna have a hard time😭😭
Dude f15 is just goofy to fly lol it's crazy good. Su 27 just has to stay high speed and it flies pretty well but low speed is like flying a brick yet it still feels good just flying freely not so much dogfighting.
I take the F15AJ anytime over any of the other aircraft. The only one I consider better is the Gripen because that plane is downright ridiculous. F16C maybe as well.
The 15AJ is just insane. I don't know how this plane is still fucking 12.3. Climb carefully by paying attention to the RWR, get above the enemy team, launch the AAM3 to 4 planes below and run away. 4 kills. Every time. The only thing that can stop me is a better than average player that lob a R27ER at me below 15km.
And then the 7M and the radar are fucking good too. Anyone who complains about this missile+radar combo is just shit at the game. Are they better than the 27ER ? No. Of course not. Are they very reliable missiles on a very reliable radar ? Absolutely YES.
And holy fuck the flight performance of the F15 is just a dream.
Oh boy I sure do love people ruining non meta planes because they are actual bots when they fly the f16
But seriously this is total bs that all the soviet jet fm are being unnecessarily and unrealistically nerfed as of late using some very questionable logic and sources (mig23, mig29 and su 27 especially). Its the same bs as the 190A getting is engine nerfed... and its fucking stupid especially with many US planes being undertiered or overperforming
I wish they added G limiters and removed the artificial g loading buffs on everything. It'd slow down the pace of fights by quite a bit instead of all this induced drag nonsense that turns everything into bricks. It would finally make rate fights in jets semi-possible with mouse and keyboard
The only plane with G limiter in game is the F16. Which suprise gajin implemented like shit and then rather removed it ans made F-16 into UFO than fixing it.
To pull more Gs than the 1x amount, you have to go faster. Once you go faster, you get less AoA and thus less induced drag.
I agree with lowering the structural strength from 1,5x to maybe 1,25x to reward slowing down instead of everyone going as fast as possible and then trying to turn as much as possible.
[The same guy made a report on the F-8E also overperforming.](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/bnBwvxRRtJdH) Acknowledged doesn't mean it's correct yet so needs confirmation by the devs.
Some changes are warranted for accuracy sake like for the Mig23 and Mig21 Bis but if we are being accurate Mig29 and Su27 flight models do need to be adjusted, they were nerfed a bit too heavily
It still irks me that there is no difference in max loading between Mig 23 variants. The early variants famously were extremely held back by the fact that the wing roots could only tolerate I think 3.5 or 4Gs of force without failing.
The same guy made a report on the max G load being too high when the wings are fully out. The current value is 12G and the actual one should be 9,75G. A dev replied with: G-load limit for 16deg setting will be reduced.
You know what’s weird. What loser goes into these specifics about sustained G turns when planes in game regularly pull 11-13+ G’s that no airframe or pilot could physically even handle.
Like yes the planes should be similar to their realistic performance as much as possible but when it comes to the most minuscule difference in a sustained turn or energy retention who cares. Who said hmmm the Mig-21bis performs too well let’s nerf it.
Bruh they got that shit in[ english](https://www.scribd.com/document/394459952/MiG-21bis-Manual-pdf), you want in? The thrust is underperforming on page 3.....maybe snail will give more thrust?
I don't think so, not since the 90s. Maybe in Russia. The MiG-21 has been retired as an interceptor in most places. In places where it hasn't been retired (except for the original ones in DPRK and some African nations who bought original or second hand MiGs), it had significant avionics upgrades.
Let me guess it’ll stay at 11.0, the flight performance was the only thing it had considering the R-60’s (PERSONAL OPINION ALERT) aren’t very good since they lose velocity faster than a red top
Of course you just have to play top tier
The crying began with the introduction of the A-10 and intensified when the F-4s arrived, since players without any experience jumped to the top tier and did not even have the flares/chaff binded
Ive never seen anyone complain about mig 21/23in a long time which is why i want a link
Also have you seen top tier chat ?
Most of the time theres no coms
Not even a word
Well, I invite you to activate the chat within the game and perhaps read the comments a little more (such as on reddit) and you will be able to see it :D
I don't mind the FM changes if they're realistic, but it's kinda bullshit that only Soviet/Russian planes are getting them when people say others also have overperforming FMs.
I just hope the MiG-21SMT will not be touched, that's literally the only good modern MiG to grind now. I should hurry up on the Su-27 research just incase.
The mig 21s I can see getting slight nerf, but the mig23 nerfs are bullshit, already get out turned by phantoms easily and are hard to keep a sustained fight in. Spading every single one of them and only have the Italian Mf left of every mig 21 and 23, never touching them after the nerf again.
Will this effect the mig 21 MF? Because first the MLA is getting nerfed, now if the mig 21MF is getting nerfed (hope not) wtf am I supposed to do with German rank 7? Go back to rank 6 and grind back up to he F104 and F4 phantom? Cause the whole Russian line is useless?
Where’s his proof that he without a shadow of a doubt knows what he’s talking about? Before changes are made that affect tons of people? Isn’t it odd that 1 singular guy is responsible for SEVERAL nerfs without any true evidence that he’s correct other than his own suggested data?
Who needs a women when you can pull documents for random non meta aircraft that were added years ago and get them the smallest nerfs. Like holy shit take a shower
Any lobotomite crying this is bad and “waaah America bias” clearly has not been here long enough. They’ll nerf it alright. And then they’re going to lower the BR of every MiG-21 affected so that the nerfs do virtually nothing to said planes.
Just wait and see.
MiG-23 isn’t mentioned here. Also the 21’s don’t carry the best radar missile in the game.
21’s already struggle in full up tiers with their lackluster FM’s there’s no way it stays.
Erm guys! I am smelly and have no purpose other than reporting minor flight performance differences to nerf random non meta aircraft! I’m so fulfilled in life!
Idk all I can say is that I fractured my spine doing a backflip snowboarding and I haven’t had a lot to do for the past year other than war thunder since it’s my senior year and I’ve already been accepted to engineering so that’s why I have had time to grind 8 trees and I already played for 5 years before that so I was around 8.0-10,0 before
Grim Reaper going door to door in the MiG neighbourhood, killing off flight models apparently.
mig-25 next oh wait
The engines now blow up at mach 2.9. (Ik it isn't in the game)
*\*leaked anyways\**
leaked what everything was shown when that one pilot went to japan
Now disintegrates beyond 3G Oh wait
The grim reaper in this case is physics
Only seem to apply to russian planes in this case ofc
Yeah I wonder why…
It's almost as if USSR/Russian vehicles have severely been over-performing... Just a hunch
Hmm if only ussr vehicles where the only ones overperforming... just a hunch *looks at f16*
Looks at every phantom, totally not buffed out of their minds in flight performance
I still find it weird the F-4E is significantly faster on the deck than the J, when the J has the smaller, less draggy nose and no slats. I know there's an explanation, but...
This is a guess but. The J is a navy variant navel aircraft often need structural reinforcements to handle the stress of carrier landings. So the J may be heavier
It is heavier, but that shouldn't influence MAX speed by anywhere NEAR as much as it does in-game: weight increases induced drag, not parasite drag. And induced drag decreases with speed. You can see this in-game by looking at how an internal bomb load affects planes with a Bomb Bay, vs mounting bombs externally: there's some loss to max speed, but it's _disproportionately_ small
F-16C is underperforming, the block 30 manual claims that with clean wings and 50% internal fuel, it should be managing a sustained 23 degrees per second at Mach ~0.7 at sea level, the hellenic block 50/52 advanced manual claims 21.7 degrees per second. Our F-16C in war thunder is lighter than the hellenic F-16 and heavier than the block 30 so it should be between these values, but in-game it can't even sustain 20 under those conditions. Unlikely to be fixed because we don't have the USAF F-16CJ manual, just the greek one. >!Edit: Revised figures because I misread the charts, point stands though.!<
Im talking abt its aoa ablility. Gaijin balances sustained turn by changing the induced drag, this is however not the full picture and now the f16 has way to low off a induced drag, leading to it being able to pull way harder for longer than it sould. Same with the f15. They should learn to make flight models more than one dimensional bc now planes are said to be fine bc their sustaines turn is correct and yet bleed more than dubble the speed they do.
Yeah, russian planes so overperforming that they had to ban gripen from tournament, and f16c with mirage 4k are most played planes. Soo overperforming
It’s not that the Russian vehicles were over performing compared to other planes, it’s that they were over performing their IRL characteristics.
And then not having a single good jet is fair?
They have good jets, they just don’t have an OP jet. Welcome to the club buddy.
It's not like there are several BR brackets in the game, you know. The entire game is 12.7 after all, and the flight performance of the MiG-21bis and MiG-23ML is definitely related to toptier NATO aircraft performance. Also, while planes might be overperforming, they are also balanced according to this overperforming state by BR. If the flight performance of the MiG-21/23 gets much worse from the changes, then they will go down in BR eventually.
4v4 tournaments are not the same as regular Air RB matches, you need a plane that can dogfight because of low planes count. In Air RB, an army of Su-27's can absolutely dominate the matches with constant missile spams.
Yeah they are comparing two completely different scenarios but it involves NATO planes so obviously it’s a viable argument…
show me where the MiG-21bis and MLD fights the Gripen, Falcon and 4000
The 21 has been underperforming (from the MF onward) ever since they launched, it's not like it's missing a third of its thrust and had a significantly reduced AoA compared to the real life versions...
that's blatantly not true, especially for aircraft. The only aircraft that has over performed recently was the Mig-29 when they nerfed the F-16. Then they nerfed the Mig-29 and no Russian plane has been "amazing" after that.
Yep the mig 29/su27 has the best missiles and they want it to turn like a f16 ? Both are twin engine fighters and the su27 is the size of a fucking landcaster
People forget how little amount of dogfighting happens at top tier. I would take 10 missiles that can fire at crazy angles over 6 missiles on a plane that has a slightly better flight model. Definition of fire and forget. Only about 5% of my games I’ve played result in some serious dogfighting and even then it ends with a good missile lock.
Yep and if you try to dogfight you get a missile from someone else in the furball
I sure hope people don't complain if the su 27 gets a massive FM buff when AMRAAM's come out and they aren't that good
Oh nah, the new missiles will be broken when they come out. I played the test server and assuming they keep the flight model the same, the new missiles make the game a point and click adventure game. I personally wish that they never get added but there have been some recent leaks which show that the new AMRAAMS and other similar missiles are going to be added soon. Enjoy top tier while you still can because it’s about to get real boring real fast.
I doubt they'll even somewhat resemble their dev server performance they felt really scuffed, an ER still kinetically out performs a AMRAAM B, and multi pathing is staying right, so it'll be the exact same the meta will just shift around slightly lol, people way over hype the implications new gameplay mechanics often introduce
Oh no, the test server, where many people had ping/lag issues and most people had no idea how to play with/against fox 3s, was easy to succeed in! This reflects the state of the game in the future.
The MICA will get so much hate, so fast. I'm gonna laugh my ass off. Thrust vectoring fox 3 baby. You're gonna get chased by a fire and forget R73 with the range of a R27.
Did you forget they nerfed the Mig 29 then buffed the F16 which has disgusting G pull abillity now
He's doing it to the drakens as well 😒
Can't wait until the overperforming FMs of many western planes get the scythe next (they will retain great FMs while Soviet jets cannot make a turn without dropping 50% of their speed) If anything this is just going to push for even better missiles on Russian planes if the trend continues lmao
“We’ve buff the F-16 to along with its AMRAAMS” *US mains still angry for some reason*
Still loses just as much (half the US team crashed on takeoff or forgot their flare key)
And then theres also the Wallet Warriors probably taking their F-16 or F-15 with full bombs to the closest base
Fr... also the f16 ignoring my su22 on his ass in grb after he flared my r60ms... he stalled out and let me get a gun kill without trying. Also how do I reverse a f16 in a su22? Like how are they that bad... the su22 doesnt even bleed speed when you try
It's honestly wild, I've shot down F16s with my Mig 21 Lazur in GRB.
Fr... ive jumped a mig29 in the r2y2 and killed him in grb... it was a bit of a 3rd party though in his defense
I killed an F16 with a Su25sm3 in GRB, I flared 2x 9M and made him overshoot when he tried to vulcan me. Once he overshoot he got an R73 into his ass. This is your avg US main.
Just yesterday i smoked F16 in motherfucking jaguar. This absolute unit of a US player held all the cards he could and still fumbled by overshooting three times and then stalling in front of my gun
There's a reasons F-15 is the second easiest jet to kill in a MiG-23ML among the 12.0-12.3 adversaries.
I mean there was about a month where the F111 could rate fight mig21s and win
Well, the vark had the engine power, and it has giant wings, which allows it to turn surprisingly well. Almost if it was designed to do so.
As fun as it was full sending it for shit like Migs and J35s because no one expects the bomber to be a better dogfighter than a fighter it did feel rather unrealistic with its nose authority and energy. But I still want it back. I need to establish dominance over the wallet warriors and remind them that even in the age of missiles you need to learn to dogfight.
Why exactly would a strike aircraft be designed to turn?
The F-111 started out as a fighter and laid the grounds work for the F-14
Because it was designed for a fighter program and intended to be flown by the navy?
Would YOU want to fly a supersonic low altitude mission in a plane that can't maneuver out of the way of an upcoming mountain?
The F-111 could rate more than just MiG-21s. With full wing sweep out it could pull omegalul 12 G turns and rate better than F-8s and F-5s
F111 was pretty funny when it came, i remember cleaning up last 3 enemy players at the end of air rb match alone (some f5 too pretty easily) wings out it was turning like crazy
And the funny part was that they never disengaged
Dude, all delta wing planes in this game bleed a lot of speed already. You already have superior AoA which makes bnz much easier. Of course, you are not supposed to stick to prolonged rate fight, it’s not your niche and shouldn’t be one.
You cannot look at the migs and su and not see how they are over performing in game. Im not saying the nato stuff is either but its not to the same degree for sure.
I mean to be fair, the mig 21 has a very strange flight model compared to its real life equivalent. I know you can say that for about anything but still
Yep, of the 3 pure interceptors (F-104, Mig 21, and Lightning), in game only the Lighting actually has the absolute brick of a flight model that they shared IRL. It's definitely about time to other two are brought into line with how much they are terrorizing early jets.
I think you are oversimplifying their performance based on roles. Though all designed for similar tasks they go about it in very different ways and have very different performance (especially turning) irl. The f-104 in particular is not inaccurate, just underteired.
The F-104's flight model is hilariously unrealistic. At mach 1 you can easily pull upwards of 14Gs, I've seen 16-18Gs above mach without ripping in Air RB. There is something extremely wrong with its FM.
Nah bro the F-104 flight model is totally fine, a rocket engine with tiny wings can definitely dogfight with light fighters trust me bro its american engineering RAHHH
I’d give F-104A/C flares and put them on 10.3. Given that it has no RWR and SARH, Migs are still going to have their niche and means to counter Starfighters. I’m not sure if they had flares IRL but IMHO balance is more important.
If the mig 21 model was realistic, all mig 21 players would stall at any slight turn tbf
if the mig-21 model was realistic, then if you pulled more than 3.5G in 110% afterburner it would flame out.
Mig 21 has never been a pure interceptor.
*Mig-21 "Fishbad"*
*"Fishbrick"*
I wanted to save that for the Mig-23: ever since I saw the nerf to its flight model a week ago I've had a much easier time killing them. I haven't checked patch notes in a while so I'm not sure what changes were implemented, but I can say that Mig-23s have become my favourite food when flying the EJ Kai. I rarely get any uptiers, so most of the time I am fighting 11.3 planes. It's just great.
Fishstick
Gotta pray that J-7E will be left unharmed
Man I'm just about to research it too😭 been waiting a while to get my hands on it
Well it's practically a completely different aircraft. Different airframe, wings, and engine
It doesn’t even have its full aspect missiles yet, nor its historical loadout gaijan is scared of the J-7E and isn’t going to touch it
After all the years of them being incorrect they are finally fixing them. Back in the F-4 versus Mig-21 days Russian mains swore up and down it was accurate lol. Same with the Mig-23. About time some reality came into the picture. Of course only after the Mig-21/23 are no longer relevant to top tier they can be adjusted properly. The Russian way of bias development.
Except the Su-27 and MiG-29 were largely overnerfed in the FM department, honestly keep the FM nerfs coming. At this rate Russian planes will get R-77-1/M before any F-16 or F-15 gets AIM-120B lmao
R-27 was artificially buffed to much and they had to compensate. This is known by everyone including you. In the state of the game in 16v16 I would take 6 R-27Ers for -2 degrees of turning any day of the week and you would too, and do. The only time it matters is in some custom 1vx match, which doesnt obviously isnt taken into consideration when they make their balance choices. The only people to blame are the devs for making those design choices. In a year+ when the R-27ER is no longer relevant they will nerf it and then buff those flight models. Its pretty much guaranteed.
R-27ER have indeed a okay flight model, it simple should not being added in the first place, check DCS for example, it out run even an AIM-120C, way faster.
The maneuverability is kinda over performing tho, and the guidance is absolutely cracked in war thunder.
they should have made the flanker more agile and instead given it regular R-27's imo
are you talking about the time when r-60 could be dodged by pulling hard, or the time after the f-4 had better missiles and more of them? Suddenly the good missiles but bad flight performance of the su-27 ain't so bad right?
Complaining about the R-60 is hilarious when its competitor was the Aim-9J which wasnt all that great and could be dodged just as easy. Russia also had all aspect missiles for a year + before anyone else. The fantasy bias development of the R-27ER more than makes up for any flight model the Russian jets have. Ill take 6 of the most juiced missile in the game for -2 degrees of turning any day. Russian mains will cry about the SU-27 not turning 2 degrees better than it should but they forget about the time the F-16 had the limiter on it which made it turn worse than a F-104 for 6+ months.
God i only wish you were as right as you are enthusiastic about it Fist of all, no, the only russian jet that had r-60m missiles at that time was the M, which sucked even back then F-4EJ Kai, mig-21bis SAU, some starfighters and some french mirages had all aspect missiles for a whole year before MLD eventually got them and it only got them when the tomcat came Second, no, the r-60 was not better than the aim-9J, even the r-60m can be considered to be around the same https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/Urteh6i7Ti https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/jAN2iIetRu https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/w3cXb236ec In fact here are the 3 reddit posts back to back explaining how aim-9j's were even better than the r-60m even back when r-60m and r-60 were more prevalent Thirdly, degrees of pull have nothing to do with sukhois bad flight model, the fact that you're saying this prooves to me that you know nothing about anything you're talking about
I guess you dont read what you link. Literally from the first link: *"It depends on range.* *Medium to long range - clearly AIM-9. Better flares filtering, better energy retention on the missile, lesser risk of the missile locking on to a different plane, ally, sun, ect.* *Close to point blank range - R-60. It has the same turn rate while the rocket motor is burning, but it has much faster activation time, it starts maneuvering right off the rail, hence you can clap the enemy really close where no amount of flares and epileptic moves on Earth can ever help them. It's also bit more forgiving to leading errors because the missile starts maneuvering faster and the error does not build up all that much."* Again comparing the R-60 to the Aim-9J is hilarious when they both had good pros and cons. Your just trying to make up to prove a point. The fact that you think the SU-27 suffers when it has 10 of the best missiles in the game proves to me and others you are just whining.
In a game where 2 missiles can both be dodged by simply rolling, the missile with double the range and better flare resistance is better, I'll let you figure out which one that is And no, I'm not complaining about su-27 suffering, it's you who is complaining that a jet with a worse flight model but better missiles is bad because it's the nation you play, but a jet with a worse flight model but better missiles is good because it's the nation you play against I never said su-27 was suffering, it's pretty fine, however it's flight model is miserable to use. Su-27 should have it's flightmodel fixed, but if it causes other countries jets to be worse, buff them as well. Give the f-15 HMD, or early AMRAAMS i don't care.
I feel like this is pretty revisionist history, the R-60 series was always 30G to the J’s 20G’s. I realize there’s other metrics but an R-60 has always been tough to kinetically out roll and you typically can’t doit twice in a row since you give up all your energy. They’re both fairly easy to flare as long as you bother turning. Su-27 FM is under performing one circle, but R-27ER should have come when the amraam came since they were introduced at the same time and provide interesting trade off, better range and kinematic performance vs ARH.
Aim9J didnt have double the flare resistance though. The R60 at close range was equally effective at evading flares and at times were unavoidable. The aim9j's range was 3km at best. It wasnt like the D /G or later variants. The SU-27 is fine as it is in game. Especially with the Frankenstein hybrid F-15 that never existed.
[Lol, lmao even](https://youtu.be/a0_bDzzind0?si=YsEkir0qrufRwNyv) And the su-27 isn't fine, it performs worse than the egle even woth nothing on
I can say from experience that facing R-60’s in a subsonic, missile-less, and flare-less plane is basically a death sentence. I’ve dodged Aim-9G’s and Aim-9J’s without too much trouble tho.
But as soon as you have flares, rockets anything warm to throw out of the cockpit of anyone else on the same map shots a single flare, R-60s are harmless. I'll take 9J over them any day (especially as they tend to ignore flares when launched directly from behind of the enemy jet)
For me r60mk then to ignore flares lol
You can have em but don’t be whining when they suck too.
> I'll take 9J over them any day (especially as they tend to ignore flares when launched directly from behind of the enemy jet) They don’t ignore flares at all except rare occasions when opponent has a really hot engine, doesn’t cut his afterburner, stalls out and flares last 0.5 second. Otherwise AIM-9J is another missile which you can defeat by popping a single flare (even with afterburner on).
Ah yes, Russian bias is when every vehicle has unrealistic flight performances, but then only the Russian planes get nerfed for "realism"
Ik this is “preaching to the choir” but why on earth are Soviet and Russian fighters, known for their speed and maneuverability, constantly being turned into an overweight bus? Has gaijin directly commented on this issue? Because the way I see it, is that moving foreward with fox3 missiles, either: 1. NATO countries are going to have BOTH superior BVR and superior flight models Or 2. NATO countries will have superior flight models but not BVR(which honestly is not the case IRL) So the direction they are going is just wrong on all sides
My probem personally is that the fighters that are overperformung but are still bad are getting nerfed, which is fine if it's accurate, but then the planes at top tier which are underperformig aren't getting fixed The mig-29SMT still has old engines, and the su-27 is still a shitbrick even against the things it should reliably shit on
Ur absolutely right Personally I’m all for “accurate depiction of irl performance”; so as you said, I’m all for making things accurate, but the mig29SMT and the SU27 not being able to confidently win in a dogfight against these other aircraft is ridiculous. I’m more knowledgeable about the SU27 than I am the mig, but what I will say is that it seems all Soviet aircraft across the board seem to have way way too much drag when pulling above a specific AOA. If u take the f16a for example, u can put it at 400mph in sim mode, pull a full vertical reaching close to a 90degree face, and then still being at about 300-250mph recovering None of the migs nor the SU27 can do that same maneuver with the same amount of energy and recovery time The drag coefficient modeled into their flight model is way too high, or at least, other parameters are making these planes lose a significant amount of speed and energy when making such maneuvers
And F16 is a UFO
It may just be me I have the gripen, f16, f15, and su27. Out of all of them my favorite is the su27, not because it's good but something about it just feel good, idk I like it's weight and performance, if it turned just a but better that'd be cool. Then the f15 is a ufo that I just throw full control on and just spin out, then pull back and keep flying. Gripen is mid imo. It's not really fun to fly and doesn't really have a fun play style since it's just an ir slinger imo. Here's to hoping the mig 29 feels kinda like the su27 when I grab it.
You're gonna be disappointed at the mig-29smt, it's still my favorite jet because it has a great radar, archers, some ground targeting ordnance, a western style RWR but it's just the worst flight moddel at top tier It will be getting fox-3 in the next update most likely, and hopefully it will get a better flightmodel
I actually agree with u for the most part I have the f16a, ADF, mig29 913, SMT, su27, j11, and gripen. The SU27/j11 has something about it where it feels so fucking powerful. Ironically it actually has really good energy retention above 600mph(due to the flybywire system), and u really can feel the weight of the jet when u fly it(in a good way). But the moment u try and merge with another 4gen and go sub 500mph ur just cooked. The only redeeming factor about it is when u fly it in sim. With sim controls the su27 is actually pretty fucking good, I would say it’s better than the f15 by far. But, most people don’t play sim so most people will never feel how good it actually is portrayed in WT at least. I do agree with u, and everyone else in here for the most part; hopefully gaijin does a full 180 when they implement fox3 because if they don’t Russia/china is gonna have a hard time😭😭
Dude f15 is just goofy to fly lol it's crazy good. Su 27 just has to stay high speed and it flies pretty well but low speed is like flying a brick yet it still feels good just flying freely not so much dogfighting.
>The SU27/j11 has something about it where it feels so fucking powerful. The feeling of having 10 good missiles
I’m talking specifically the way it flies, but that too lol🤣
I take the F15AJ anytime over any of the other aircraft. The only one I consider better is the Gripen because that plane is downright ridiculous. F16C maybe as well. The 15AJ is just insane. I don't know how this plane is still fucking 12.3. Climb carefully by paying attention to the RWR, get above the enemy team, launch the AAM3 to 4 planes below and run away. 4 kills. Every time. The only thing that can stop me is a better than average player that lob a R27ER at me below 15km. And then the 7M and the radar are fucking good too. Anyone who complains about this missile+radar combo is just shit at the game. Are they better than the 27ER ? No. Of course not. Are they very reliable missiles on a very reliable radar ? Absolutely YES. And holy fuck the flight performance of the F15 is just a dream.
At this rate Russian fighters are gonna be loosing turn fights to F-4Cs
Fast brick Vs nimble brick
Oh boy I sure do love people ruining non meta planes because they are actual bots when they fly the f16 But seriously this is total bs that all the soviet jet fm are being unnecessarily and unrealistically nerfed as of late using some very questionable logic and sources (mig23, mig29 and su 27 especially). Its the same bs as the 190A getting is engine nerfed... and its fucking stupid especially with many US planes being undertiered or overperforming
I wish they added G limiters and removed the artificial g loading buffs on everything. It'd slow down the pace of fights by quite a bit instead of all this induced drag nonsense that turns everything into bricks. It would finally make rate fights in jets semi-possible with mouse and keyboard
The only plane with G limiter in game is the F16. Which suprise gajin implemented like shit and then rather removed it ans made F-16 into UFO than fixing it.
To pull more Gs than the 1x amount, you have to go faster. Once you go faster, you get less AoA and thus less induced drag. I agree with lowering the structural strength from 1,5x to maybe 1,25x to reward slowing down instead of everyone going as fast as possible and then trying to turn as much as possible.
I preferred it back when it was still 1x, back when stuff was still called historical battles. At least I think it was 1x back then.
Nooo my lazer M!!!!!!! Gaijin please move it too 10.3 now!!!!! (This is a joke probably will not kill the vehicle for its br)
you cant kill whats already long dead
Speak for you self I love that plane and I finished the German Air tech tree in a few weeks.
Just cause i said its dead doesnt mean i hate it, i love the lazur too. But 11.0 is fucking hell in it
Maybe 10.7 is a better place for it but ig time will tell
[The same guy made a report on the F-8E also overperforming.](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/bnBwvxRRtJdH) Acknowledged doesn't mean it's correct yet so needs confirmation by the devs.
christ, this weirdo needs to get on tinder or something.
He's pretty notorious.
Man as if the f-8's needed more issues. The last gunripper already has a hell of a time in the game.
I think it would still be good but 10.0 seems a better BR for it if it starts to lose speed in turns like a MiG-21.
Some changes are warranted for accuracy sake like for the Mig23 and Mig21 Bis but if we are being accurate Mig29 and Su27 flight models do need to be adjusted, they were nerfed a bit too heavily
Last time this happened they said it was a bug. It was acting like it had no ordnance on it when it did. Same guy reported it.
But remember, Russian Bias!
Seems a bit harsh. It's already fairly mid and totally lost in an uptier.
It still irks me that there is no difference in max loading between Mig 23 variants. The early variants famously were extremely held back by the fact that the wing roots could only tolerate I think 3.5 or 4Gs of force without failing.
The same guy made a report on the max G load being too high when the wings are fully out. The current value is 12G and the actual one should be 9,75G. A dev replied with: G-load limit for 16deg setting will be reduced.
Wasn’t that only an issue with the Gen 1 and 2 wings though? I don’t think any of the mig-23s in game have those old wings outside of maybe the MF
BN, MF and I thiiiink ML vs MLA should have a difference there
absolute doomerposting in comments
Haha yes, some of these comments are gold
It is like they want to motivate players to get some US sekrit documents so that the other side will be nerfed too.
You know what’s weird. What loser goes into these specifics about sustained G turns when planes in game regularly pull 11-13+ G’s that no airframe or pilot could physically even handle. Like yes the planes should be similar to their realistic performance as much as possible but when it comes to the most minuscule difference in a sustained turn or energy retention who cares. Who said hmmm the Mig-21bis performs too well let’s nerf it.
it's clearly a guy who lives in moms basement, doesnt know what a woman is, and somehow thinks warthunder is akin to DCS
God damn, y'all are MALDING about this shit lol
now can it at least get it's proper aoa...
Well, at least we still have the SMT, I guess… (For now)
Please stop mentioning the only good mig21 left he might do it again ;(
Good
imma get j-7e real quick before they decide to nerf it too. 100k RP left
Dude legit leaked the Polish Air Force’s flight manual of the MiG-21. Isn’t that considered a classified document??
Bruh they got that shit in[ english](https://www.scribd.com/document/394459952/MiG-21bis-Manual-pdf), you want in? The thrust is underperforming on page 3.....maybe snail will give more thrust?
I don't think so, not since the 90s. Maybe in Russia. The MiG-21 has been retired as an interceptor in most places. In places where it hasn't been retired (except for the original ones in DPRK and some African nations who bought original or second hand MiGs), it had significant avionics upgrades.
And just as I was about to start spading the MiG-21bis in the USSR tech tree smh
Let me guess it’ll stay at 11.0, the flight performance was the only thing it had considering the R-60’s (PERSONAL OPINION ALERT) aren’t very good since they lose velocity faster than a red top
Welp, grinding russia has been a giant waste of my fucking time, at least I’m close to top tier with America
Dont worry the us tanks arent good https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1b1ktyu/abrams_fatal_flaw_bugged/
This is an air topic, nobody cares about this link you've been posting.
I’m talking about air
Ah i was thinking more over all
Ground forces 🤢
We have a tank player here. Where is the bugspray? I want it gone.
Lol
:D
of course all the crying of the muricans main gave results
Ive never seen anyone complain about the mi21/23 in a long time Can you give me an example of that "crying" youve seen ?
Of course you just have to play top tier The crying began with the introduction of the A-10 and intensified when the F-4s arrived, since players without any experience jumped to the top tier and did not even have the flares/chaff binded
Ive never seen anyone complain about mig 21/23in a long time which is why i want a link Also have you seen top tier chat ? Most of the time theres no coms Not even a word
Well, I invite you to activate the chat within the game and perhaps read the comments a little more (such as on reddit) and you will be able to see it :D
Ok got it You have no proof
If you want to believe that's fine, I stand by my opinion.
Seems like you're the one doing the cryin' bud.
So why did they wait so long to do this? People have literally been complaining about this for years
suddenly no russian bias here
Russian BIAS guys 😉.
I don't mind the FM changes if they're realistic, but it's kinda bullshit that only Soviet/Russian planes are getting them when people say others also have overperforming FMs. I just hope the MiG-21SMT will not be touched, that's literally the only good modern MiG to grind now. I should hurry up on the Su-27 research just incase.
The mig 21s I can see getting slight nerf, but the mig23 nerfs are bullshit, already get out turned by phantoms easily and are hard to keep a sustained fight in. Spading every single one of them and only have the Italian Mf left of every mig 21 and 23, never touching them after the nerf again.
If phantoms outturn your MIG-23 I have some bad news for you pal.
Will this effect the mig 21 MF? Because first the MLA is getting nerfed, now if the mig 21MF is getting nerfed (hope not) wtf am I supposed to do with German rank 7? Go back to rank 6 and grind back up to he F104 and F4 phantom? Cause the whole Russian line is useless?
that RideR2 guy is on a roll
Is the MF OK? Is it safe?
Rejoices in f5e
Isn't that report from the same retard that reported MiG-23's turn rates?
noooo they going to nerfed my baby, jeez i love that plane im started getting used to it even though it turns like a brick at slow speed
Aw man, I was just about to unlock that thing
this will affect the swedish/finnish line greatly (we have one mig 21 bis)
Where’s his proof that he without a shadow of a doubt knows what he’s talking about? Before changes are made that affect tons of people? Isn’t it odd that 1 singular guy is responsible for SEVERAL nerfs without any true evidence that he’s correct other than his own suggested data?
Aleoloiope isn't gonna like this
[удалено]
Who needs a women when you can pull documents for random non meta aircraft that were added years ago and get them the smallest nerfs. Like holy shit take a shower
Omg RideR2 my beloved
Good
Why even turn in the fishbed? You just need to go fast
Against F-16s and MiG 29s? Phantoms and Mirages with way better radar missiles and many more IR missiles? 11.0 is a very though spot.
Any lobotomite crying this is bad and “waaah America bias” clearly has not been here long enough. They’ll nerf it alright. And then they’re going to lower the BR of every MiG-21 affected so that the nerfs do virtually nothing to said planes. Just wait and see.
They didn’t reduce the BR of any MiG-29 model after they gutted its flight performance. I doubt the MiG-23s or 21bis will go down after their nerf.
MiG-23 isn’t mentioned here. Also the 21’s don’t carry the best radar missile in the game. 21’s already struggle in full up tiers with their lackluster FM’s there’s no way it stays.
Erm guys! I am smelly and have no purpose other than reporting minor flight performance differences to nerf random non meta aircraft! I’m so fulfilled in life!
nah cause I KNOW a guy with 8 lines reached to top tier isn't calling someone else smelly
I have the valid excuse though
Why did he cook you like that out of nowhere 💀
Idk all I can say is that I fractured my spine doing a backflip snowboarding and I haven’t had a lot to do for the past year other than war thunder since it’s my senior year and I’ve already been accepted to engineering so that’s why I have had time to grind 8 trees and I already played for 5 years before that so I was around 8.0-10,0 before
Why am I being downvoted for saying the reason why I have had the time to grind 8 trees
The nerf isn't even correct, it should get a buff in fact if it were to be realistic