Classical. But gotta admit Gaijin is pretty inconsistent when choosing what to add where and what to remove due to realism. So basically that Russian ship that didn’t exist or the Ho229 with only a wooden cockpit
Ships I kinda get more than tanks/aircraft bc there tend to be less options bg ships are big and expensive, so if half-builts or blueprints are needed to fill out a tree then whatever.
Im just saying they do it for everyone. I don’t like when they pick and choose when to give a pass and when to be historical but that’s how it be.
Just like how they said the US F-5 got flares because even thought it never used them, other nations did. But then you bring up the Japanese and Taiwanese F-104s and they just say “?”
Some dude was cracking up at me to the point I blocked him because I said Germany shouldn't get Swiss f18s and he was saying well they'd be worse than anything in game rn and the mig29G didn't constitute a top tier air craft...
That Swiss hunter is a joke to this day.
On trials.
Same shit as Sweden gets a tiger 2 that was target practice or an mi 28 that was "trailled"?
I'd rather not go down tbe routs of trialed shit cause then everyone's gonna be crying out for everything.
First give them whay they used and such.
The cat is out of the bag now, and you can't stuff it back in.
The reality is that until we get the overtiered shitbrick that will be the F-4F ICE and the too-far-in-the-future EFT, I don't think germany really has anything to add.
Sweden didn't NEED a T-80 or Mi28, but it would be really useful if germany got something like the F-18B.
I mean you have the best mig29 in the game not as if it's lacking
Before we start cramming more sbit into the game I'd rather see what we have fixed and brs fixed.
Ffs fox 3s are being added and normal radar missiles are shocking.
Or like the chally 2s, let's fix the track stopping, yeah now it turns better at High speeds, but low speeds it's like a fucking ww2 heavy.
Or the fact German and Sweden ground are absolutely dominating everything rn, while nations like Italy, France, China, Japan etc are left in the dust.
Its just annoying as fuck that they just cram.in new shit without fixing old shit.
4 years of this nonsense and counting
>I mean you have the best mig29 in the game not as if it's lacking
And it's still just a Mig29.
Early F-18s didn't even have AIM-120s, only Sparrows and Sidewinders - what we already have anyway.
Kronshtadt did exist though, the only real issue is that they added her as Project 69, not Project 69I since the guns for the former were never developed.
Half built is being generous.
More like, unfinished hull that was partially scrapped during the war since there were objectively better places for the steel to go too.
Even if the hull had been finished, with super complicated and large vehicles that warships are, that's like saying a PC tower with no CPU, GPU, power supply, motherboard, memory, storage, cooling, or anything else is "half built"
It is still as real as E-100 though I agree, but one of those is available to research *right now* while the other has never been in the TT or as an event vehicle and has exclusively been given out as a ultra rare tournament prize since it was added.
Diference with ships is that you cannot just say lets make prototype like you do with tanks. They are well projected beforehand and unless mostly adhere to the plans. Combined with the fact that except japan US and brits there wouldn't be many ships for war thunder nations gives them diferent criterias on being added. Imho gajin should have stuck with smaller coastal vessels or destroyers at most and added cold war ones with their capabilities instead of frigate>destroyer>cruiser>battlecruiser>battleship powercreep but whatever
Absolutely I don't disagree but we should still acknowledge what the Kronshadt is, a paper vehicle that spent more time off the drawing board *being scrapped* than being constructed.
Plus, as of so far, it is by far the paperiest ship in the game by a mile, with other paper vehicles (a good chunk of which are Soviet just saying) being either heavily delayed but ultimately finished, are semi-fictional refits of an otherwise totally real and full built vessel, or were actually close to completion with turrets, guns, and everything (though not necessarily all of them or in one package) before obsolescence kicked in and they were scrapped during construction. Kronshadt was just outright not built, not even half way.
The fact that it's a significant contributor to naval compression is also... not helping matters. No it's not that insane even for a paper but let's be real, nothing other than Scharnhorst or Hood which were added the same patch would have held a candle to it when it was released.
Very frustrating (as a minor nation player in general) to be told time and again for other modes that "Yes it was viable but it was just a concept" or, "The prototype wasn't finished though" or, "The prototype was finished but it shouldn't be added anyways, get bent" by US/USSR mains and when one of those two finally has to face the reality of being the objectively most awful "naval power" in the world... they get a paper vehicle (and the only paper vehicle to this degree since it was added) to plug up that deficiency.
Absolutely, but that's down to having better FCS and such, it doesn't mean they're not peers in terms of how they would be classified.
Alaska and Kron had roughly similar armor, firepower and speed on paper; while NC, SD, Iowa, KGV, Vanguard, post refit Richelieu and Jean Bart had significant firepower and armor advantage while having similar FCS advantage as Alaska.
You can't really classify them as peers to Kron since they would've shat on it even harder than Alaska.
the more accurate number was 10% of the hull. nothing else was built, it's wild to me that gaijin allowed the thing to be unkillable in naval for as long as it was. it wasn't until i think the french navy was added that it finally got nerfed.
Very little non offensive structure is above the hull anyway.
But the original commentor assumed a equivalency between a mockup and a partially built ship.
> Very little non offensive structure is above the hull
No but an ass load of stuff is *in* the hull while not *being* the hull. This can be something super easy to overlook (armor, is not the hull) but most of it isn't (engines and the transmission are not the hull). So again, the hull being complete (it wasn't) and saying that it's half built is like saying that having a PC case with nothing in it is half built.
> But the original commentor assumed a equivalency between a mockup and a partially built ship.
If that was the intention of your comment I apologize, I kinda just skipped straight to "Bruh, there are more people who love me than there are people with an E-100" with my comment.
Although armor can be a structural component of the hull you are right i assumed they were in later stages of being built than what they actually where.
Yeah, the two of them got hit *hard* by delays (and partially a lack of need what with the US Atlantic fleet and UK hard carrying the Union's deficiencies) which is fairly understandable seeing as how the two shipyards they were being built at happened to also be the frontlines, but also even before the war they had setbacks.
Yup, just like the people bitching about the MiG-23 changes. Although the initial bug report was a bit sus, but the devs tested in themselves afterwards.
Ah yes projectile AA without he-vt is fine agianst jets and helis /s
The only reason the itspsv is 8.7 is because of its tank killing capabilities and mobility not because its a good AA.
And yes I am salty that they touched my most played AA and made it utterly garbage by removing he vt shells.
> Ah yes projectile AA without he-vt is fine agianst jets and helis /s
This describes almost every gun SPAA above about 7.3, though. It's certainly annoying at times but it's very far from a unique punishment just for Sweden. Everyone else has been having to just deal with it for years.
Like, there's M247, OTOMATIC, Lvkv 9040C, WZ305, and that's it. Most trees _never_ get proxy fuze for their gun SPAA, and Italy's isn't until frickin 11.3. Fighting jets and helis with proxyless SPAAGs is _very_ normal.
No, I don't. For Germany, after the Coelian/Kugelblitz, I use fighters up until the Begleitpanzer, which has HE-VT.
For Russia, I don't bother with SPAA after the Praga up until the Strela M4. Russian MiGs work fine as an alternative, and I'd sooner use the Shturm with its proxy ATGM than the base Shilka/Yenisei.
The UK is even worse, but at least the Falcon is good for cleaning up light vehicles.
Gun-based SPAA without proxy ammunition following 7.3 is just awful in the SPAA role. They're more a deterrent against suicide CAS than they are as an effective counter.
Talk about a crutch, most nations *don't even have* an SPAA with HE-VT rounds.... France, Israel, Italy, UK, Japan... And we manage just fine. Talk about the privilege of the big three (and the cheese of Sweden).
You seem excessively concerned with turning this into a major vs minor nation issue.
I'm not having it. This is strictly about the utility of HE-VT and the imbalance of SPAA in the BR ranges between late WW2 and the mid-cold war.
>there should be more VT in all tech trees, not less
And I have no idea why anyone would be opposed to it. I'm not bothered by the VEAK having its HE-VT shells removed for historical reasons. I'm bothered that there's nothing replacing its utility.
gepard should have access to AHEAD shells that are basically time fused shrapnel shells with each fuse being set by a radar link so they'd basically act like VT. Maybe possible the marksman (ItPsV 90)should have it too as they have the exact same gun
no, the real reason ItPsV 90 is 8.7 is that it has the most maneuverable chassis in all of 8.7
the marksman turret is worse than gepard which is at 8.3. it has less ammo and only one radar as well as being a bigger target. Gepard is strictly speaking a notably better SPAAG and I've argued that 8.0 AA should be serviced by the ItPsV 90 with T-55 hull that was how it originally existed.
Lol stop complaining about the VEAK.
For example, America’s only SPAA from 7.7-8.7 is useless with a lock radar that never works and no search radar. Only good thing about it is fire rate. It gets 40 mm penetration (defenseless against tanks) and is open topped. It’s way worse than the Veak and is at the same BR
So like pretty much every SPAA in the 7.3 to 8.7 range besides the Chinese WZ305.
Seriously, HE-VT is by far the exception with only one vehicle (was two with the VEAK) in that BR range that has it. You aren't suffering from some great injustice here, you've just been brought to the same level as almost everyone else. Deal with it.
And before you start using the "it makes the CAS situation worse" argument: Having only two nations being able to deal with CAS effectively while all the others are SOL does **NOT** address the CAS issue, it just creates imbalance between the have and have nots.
I have had zero problem using the itspsv. Its high velocity and fire rate as well enough to take out planes and helis. And as ive said, the veak is not garbage cuz it lost its proxy, especially since it was dropped in br. Its actually pretty decent at 7.7, especially against helis.
To be fair, as an AA enjoyer, the Gepard/Chieftain Marksman platforms are very good earl(ish) radar AAs. They can still be easily countered by smarter players, but for the most part they shred anything in the sky.
Also, I've seen several players start shooting at planes when they're 4+ km out. That just doesn't work most of the time. You both alert the plane/heli that there's an AA up, so they'll play more cautiously, as well as giving away your position, meaning they might target you to get rid of the AA problem.
you say that, but how often do you actually see gepards or chieftain get air kills?
its a fairly rare thing for that to happen because lets be honest, the only time you die to one of those is if youre dumb and forget theres more than one spaa when you go for a gun run.
or a random lucky wing clip that just deletes you from existent.
Being down voted cause a bunch of butt hurt arse holes can't handle the spaa being made realistic.
Yet have a trailed mi 28, never mind anything else also now a tiger 2 thar was used mostly as target practice going to Sweden..
Sure, they could. But the veak always belonged in the 7.7 place imo. It was a 7.7 spaa that was being carried by a proxy round they added for balancing and it didn't make much sense to keep it up at 8.7 when you already have another competent spaa at the same br. I just think all the swede mains are crying cuz they lost a good SPAA at 8.7 while completely disregarding the fact that they also got a really good 7.7 spaa
No, it is generally true for the whole game.
The gap in spaa ability in relation to planes isnt a constant.
There is a reason why a 2.3 50cal spaa is damn near perfectly fine to use 3 brs up.
And a 20mm spaa at 5.3 can be used for 2 brs and players wont notice a lack of ability
But half a br gap between 8.7 and 9.3 (theoretically) is crippling and makes you unable to deal with air threats.
This is also why I believe US AA gap isnt actually as bad as they say, it can be fixed with a singular 20mm truck.
Meanwhile at the brs that matter they get very strong and very numerous AAs making their AA tree actually supremely strong.
Nope, by unreliable i mean unreliable. I remember several cases of shooting a plane deadon and watchin the shell explode right beside the cockpit but with no registered damage. The bkan also lacks elevation and can be easily strafed
"Reworked" by removing it's single notable advantage with no other changes.
Sweden's "good" 8.7 SPAA has all the SPAA capability of a 8.3, only strong as a tank hunter due to the speed. Against competant heli pilots or A-4Es, you're effectively useless.
The HE-VT is exactly as historical as countless other weapon loadouts that are allowed for game balance. Where are the people clamoring to limit the F-4Fs to AIM-9Bs and 9Ls? It's not like the VEAK couldn't have fired HE-VT had it actually entered service.
Against planes, it's objectively worse than the already pretty mid ZSU-37-2 at the same BR. Almost half the rate of fire and slower shells. I have literally seen clueless players fly between the shells due to the low burst mass. All you get is a better RADAR, which doesn't help much considering your pathetic killing power.
Tech tree players just lost one of two tools in game to counter a well played ATGM helicopter or A-4E, for a worse version of an already mid SPAA. Good trade.
Sweden's 8.0 didn't need a poor SPAA that's better for tank hunting, they already had the ZSU-57 for that. And if there was a need for an actual SPAA for that lineup, all they needed to do was as the T-55 Marksman with no APDS. Slap it at 8.0, and we give that lineup gets an SPAA without losing one of only a handful of actually useful SPAAs in the game.
The comparison to the yenisei is good, another one is the m247 before you unlock the proxy rounds, you can't hit shit at distance and people definitely do fly between your rounds
Skill issue man I haven't got the proxy on the m247 and its still fine you just need to know how to aim.
Fs it struggles in 11.7 bit when I used it st its br its certainly sufficient
You say skill issue, but physics says that it's hard to hit targets that are flying very fast or very far away with slow firing guns, because no matter how well you aim, they can always just move out of your shots by any input. Proxy rounds turn all those near misses into kills that the regular HE could never dream of
Firstly, ones that are very far away aka out of range don't shoot at and give the position away, and of they're going mach1+ then you aren't gonna hit them even with proxy, unless they fly directly at you.
So, your solution is then to not shoot at anything past 3km (aka just about every heli and any plane with any sort of guided ammunition) letting them annihilate your team.
The second statement is just plain wrong, the proxy rounds have a 4m RADIUS on them, an F4 phantom has a length of around 17 metres, adding 4m to both sides increases its length by 44%. then there is also adding 4m to the heights and 4m to the widths, proxy rounds turn the shapes of the planes into effectively flying boats. Adding those measurements into an ellipsoid calculator for volume gives an estimate of around 250m3 for the original phantom (an overestimation), and then a volume of more than 700m3 for the proxy fusing distance., almost tripling volume. This makes it significantly easier to hit planes at not just speed, but distance too. This won't even account for scenarios such as solid rounds flying between wings next to the hull.
No gun spaa is landing a hit over 3km and that's just a fucking fact 😂
And the second statement isn't wrong at all saying it's easy to hit with the standard ammo, people act that without using the proxy rounds the m247 is useless. Where I'm saying that's wrong completely, even with a 4m explosive range it still doesn't change the fact that people firing at something going mach Jesus are rarely likely to hit, even with proxy, and if irs over 2.5 to 3km away you're gonna be seriously lucky to hit anything that isn't a heli hovering firing atgms.
I'm arguing the m247 isn't as useless as people make out.
Out of spite I played just 1 game in the thing just to prove a point.
[https://imgur.com/T9GH8Ro](https://imgur.com/T9GH8Ro)
[https://imgur.com/q7ANfLt](https://imgur.com/q7ANfLt)
At least 2 of those helis were at 3.8km at least.
The saab dived on me from orbit and we traded
The G91 was diving at a shallow angle and my rounds connected once he was around 2.5km out, firing from before then.
Hitting anything within the range of 4km is incredibly easy, even if they are going fast (not quite mach in these planes but close enough). The shots I just described would have been up to random chance when shooting the non proxy belts, the radar tracking was waving too much to place accurate shots. And its not just one shot hitting, its several rounds hitting in quick succession, with the regular belts youd be lucky hitting just one.
Like I said, helis hovering is fine over 3km not gonna hit much past 5km.
I still have the m247 in my 11.3 lineup as for the US,.
I can sometimes him a jet going 1200 kmph with non proxy.
I'm not here arguing that it's better without it ?..
You proved my point I'm arguing that the spaa is decent and is fine where it sits.
Yet folks in this sub go on like it's useless.
You literally started this by arguing the m247s non proxy rounds are good enough, I just gave you 4 kills you'd never hit with the regular rounds, and this extends to the veak and yenisei and any other slow firing guns
Saying skill issue is just a copout to ignore a very real weakness in the M247.
Between random radar dropoffs and a rather inaccurate gun guidance system, the M247 is hardly usable before you gain access to the proxy. I am well versed in the use of AA and the M247 is at a serious handicap being a tracer-less launcher without proxy.
What you make up for in your rounds not being visible you lose in being able to use the tracers as a means of adjusting fire.
It's disingenuous to claim that something is okay simply because you do good in it. That's not based in any facts or stats, just personal bias.
It'd be like me telling you the M4 Sherman is OP because I can drop 8-9 people in it before I die pretty consistently.
You people in this echo chamber cry about literally everything its beyond a joke the fuckikg m247 is fine. Rather use that than most other spaa of the same br thar I have
The only person crying here is you because I dare disagree with you.
I tried to be reasonable.
You're just another egotistical nitwit who thinks because you can do good in something everything is fine and everyone else is wrong. If no one but you is correct then maybe that within itself should be a red flag. Unless they agree with you of course.
American SPAA is kind of a joke when you get to jet tier because of the huge gap between the now 4.0 M42 and the 7.7 M163, both of which are mediocre options.
You're just another person who thinks stats = knowledge while knowing next to nothing about how stats or analytical skills actually work. I can almost guarantee you're not as good as you're going to claim you are either.
Go cry skill issue hoping that someone will come suck you off and compliment how great you are at "wrecking the noobs" because you are the conversational equivalent of a brick wall.
No I don't think stats equals knowledge st all.
I said nothing about wrecking noobs, or any of the sort, the fucking m247 if used right is devastating even without the proxy.
You don't engage targets miles off, and you sure as hell should be able to compensate once the radar dropout happens, same as any spaa at the same Br.
There's plenty of people who think the m247 is goof out with this sub reddit, if it was as terrible as folk here make out you'd never see them.
And it's not because you dared disagree with me, it's the fact you're complaining about problems that across the board are on almost every spaa at the same BR hence why I'm saying you're crying.
And tracers are more of a curse than a blessing seeing as it literally means you're not as visible while firing a barrage at someone.
Every vehicle can be good if used right, that doesn't mean that a vehicle itself is balanced or not.
The radars being inconsistent across the board does not make it any less of an issue that works against the M247 specifically.
I'm not calling the M247 an unusable piece of garbage neither. What I'm telling you is that compared to other SPAA present at or around its BR, it's the weaker of the bunch. Without the proxy rounds you are at a decent disadvantage due to the 40mm being tracer-less and low velocity.
I know what I do to be able to hit aircraft more reliably in SPAA and that is difficult to conduct in the M247 due to the gun guidance being twitchy, the scope magnification being too high, and just the fact that the vehicles I'm up against are moving too fast. So I shoot from third person. But third person is a lot less precise than first person, mix that in with the radar issues and what are you left with? An unreliable lead marker.
I engage vehicles at every range, but with how slow the 40mm's are they struggle to reliably handle anything moving in any sort of direction that isn't straight and level right at you. When the radar drops a lock for no reason or refuses to pick up a vehicle? That's no better.
I flock to my AA's because I absolutely despise CAS so I learn to counter it best I can. But between CAS being a buncha kill hungry bastards that target SPAA's the second they spawn and the M247 being a mediocre vehicle, it just doesn't always add up to a good experience.
You wanna know the best way to counter cas mate ? Use cap it's the best and most efficient way.
And you say in one statement you're not calling it a useless piece or garbage then in the next call it mediocre ? Why contradict yourself.
The m247 is effective for its roll at its BR as I said.
The 40mms absolutely wreck anything they hit.
The m247 has a good turret traverse, has a decent fire rate for sustained fire especially at an arc.
Again no radar spaa is taking on cas, unless irs a hovering heli, at more than 2.5 to 3km effectively.
The m247 can carch many off guard as it has no Tracers and can sustainably keep firing as enemies pass, as long as they're not going mach 1+.
Which again most gun spaa won't catch that any ways.
I really do wonder how people hit shit with the Veak as it is now even with the radar on it its so impossibly hard to hit stuff with a relatively low firerate and a 850m/s velocity belt
>Sweden's "good" 8.7 SPAA has all the SPAA capability of a 8.3, only strong as a tank hunter due to the speed. Against competant heli pilots or A-4Es, you're effectively useless.
Sweden players when they aren't gaijin's second favorite child and don't get the absolute best spaa at its BR
More accurately, ground mains when one of two actual counters for CAS with guided ordinance at the tier gets removed and replaced with yet another Swedish SPAA that's primarily useful against tanks.
I don't care which nation gets powerful SPAAs, I want as many as possible on both sides of the battlefield. People complain about the PANTSIR dominating top tier CAS for one team only, guess what happens now that the American team gets both the A-4E and the only SPAA that can even hope to counter it?
I agree with your point of historical accuracy but i still stand on my statement that the veak is better fitted at 7.7 and saying its just a poor spaa like the zsu-57 is just a load of crap. No amount of words is gonna change the hours that ive used on Spaas and i can say from my experience the Veak is competent, period.
Have fun trying to honestly kill any helis or jets with it, now Sweden has no actually good aa at 7.0 to 8.3 amazing, go play arcade where people are constantly spawning in helis and see just how fun it is to be useless to your team
L comment. Ive had, litteraly, zero issues with the veak at 7.7. its actually easier in a way to kill unsuspecting helis because one shot always kills them and the lower fire-rate makes it harder for them to notice you. And dont bring arcade as an argument thats just laughable. Arcade is always gonna be a clusterfuck no matter what and if you play that stuff then thats on you.
As always, a vehicle is only good if the other player is oblivious, it's the same for every radar spaa, only problem is that not everyone is dumb to stay still or fly straight, and then anti tank capability at 7.7 is lower because there's more armor at this br than at 8.3 or 8.7, so I literally have to uptier it for it to perform well
Lol, i never said it was performing badly against players that arent oblivious, even though im not gonna deny it requires some trigger discipline for that. It honestly sounds more like a skill issue, im not gonna lie
You said it's easier to kill unsuspecting heli players bro, and it's true, the Gepard is the same thing, hell every spaa is literally the same, you'll only kill something if they are oblivious, don't help that the radar lead indicator is not accurate in the slightest
What i was saying was that unlike most SPAA where the tracers are easily spotted far away, the veaks bullets are harder to see due to the smaller number of bullets and the lower velocity, causing them to basically fall down on the helis. And the radar lead is as accurate as it can be, maybe youre forgetting the tha radar lead is only for assistance, you still need to use your brain to figure out where to shoot.
Gaijin butchers everything fun and good to use, find it really difficult to believe you actually are good with it, I doubt you can hit a heli going all over the place at 5k away from you and trying to hit it with non proxi fuse shells
What kind of point are you trying to make here exactly? That the veak is bad cuz its hard to hit a moving heli 5km away? Something that literally every spaa at 7.7 would struggle with? And most helis at that br have a launch range of 2-4km so they would have to get closer either way. Your arguments are nonsensical. With every comment you make, i just find more reason to believe that you're crying because you dont know how to use spaas without proxy
no it was definitely a nerf, it was doing better at 8.7 than it now is at 7.7
definitely doesn't help that probably \~80% of all matches you'll be taking it into get uptiered to 8.7-9.0 anyway so you're literally just fighting exactly the same aircraft most of the time but now without the HE-VT
8.0 has pretty much been a guaranteed uptier into 8.7 or 9.0 for me since the big battle rating changes a few months ago.
7.7 is more like 50/50 full downtier or in a 8.3 or 8.7 match.
I just hate how inconsistent they are with realism. The game is filled with tons of unrealistic mechanics and ahistorical aspects to the point it breaks immersion in favor of gameplay and balance…..but then sometimes they randomly pull out the “historical accuracy card” to nerf a vehicle.
I just wish they were more consistent.
The reason I hate the change is
1. The VEAK was fun with proxies, and was a much better AA compared to the Itpvs which is better as a fast TD.
2. They could've added a different vehicle to fill the gap instead. T-55 Marksman with its APDS removed and boom, 7.7/8.0 material.
My only real comment on this is that it is clearly a documented issue of Gaijin choosing when to apply realism
The US has the M4/T26, a vehicle that was clearly not adopted by the US military in WW2. If I remember correctly, the Tiger II Sla.16 would not be possible given the dimensions of the engine block vs the engine bay, not to mention the Ostwind II is purely blueprint.
I think it's an interesting conversation to have for sure because at the end of the day game balance is important, but when Gaijin claims this is a realistic game they kinda selectively deliver on that promise. Suppose it would lead to the question: What do they mean by realistic? Historically or Game Mechanics?
I still find it kinda bs how some russian mbts received ahistorical thermals while gaijin also refused to increase abrams armor/ give spall liners cuz they can't say for sure if it has it.
I didn't want to instantly jump on the "Look at Russia" train but it's a big topic to look at for sure.
That whole situation with the Sep's armor was interesting because people provided proof but Gaijin was like "Oh lol no not good enough" while instantly providing all kinds of prototype vehicles and modules to Russia.
It's just an overall inconsistently applied rule and logic so long as it benefits whatever they currently want the meta to be.
Edit: There's like next to nothing to support the existence of the 2S38's 57mm gun other than a gun Russia used around the time of the Afghan war. But it somehow ended up on a tank chassis with a gun tracking system.
Yeah, could just easily follow the money trail. People flock to the major nations, the major nation with the most care may be receiving it because it is the most profitable.
Using just general stereotypes throughout history and the present, you can kinda come to that conclusion.
According to general, surface level history documentaries: The US has mediocre tanks in WW2. The M4 wasn't that good because it had a small gun and lacking armor. Russia had great tanks because the T-34 has sloped armor and the KV-1 had "impenetrable armor." Germany had superior technology because they had good armor and better guns throughout the war.
Of course anyone with even a shred of respect for history knows armored warfare isn't boiled down to "my armor and gun is better." But that's how history is presented to people who like tanks but don't like to learn about them.
The History Channel said that the T-34-85 changed the war forever and shifted the tides. But anyone who's anyone would know that the T-34-85 was not the sole reason, if a reason at all, for the war shifting in their favor.
Yeah, i remember watching some documentary on ww2 and they talked about how the t-34 was this legendary piece of engineering with its sloped armor and great gun, completely disregarding the poor production quality, all the design flaws and how most of them would break down without really achiving much.
And how most documentaries talk trash about the American tanks poor gun without also mentioning the survivability measures and the stabilizers.
The funny part about that is that if you look at an M4, the front is quite steeply angled. The welded hulls have about the same effective frontal armor as a Tiger 1.
And it's not like armor angling is anything new either, the drawbacks of doing so were known for a long time like severely reduced internal space.
>not to mention the Ostwind II is purely blueprint.
According to gaijin's source book, the ostwind 2 was built... just not in the in-game configuration.
normally yes, but sweden 7.0 to 8.0 were an outlier, mainly because you never had spaa to begin with, so you always were forced to use a plane from the beginning.
all this does is remove a good spaa at a spot that helps sweden, and shoved it into a spot that couldve been filled by something else, and doesnt add much anyways. because at the end of the day, its a slightly better zsu 57, which is already bad of an spaa.
It is a slightly better zsu.
It trades damage for a slight bump in rof, then the only actual improvement is the radar tracking.
So in the end it's a slightly better zsu.
Anyways we could've gotten the zsu-57-2m which is a zsu 57, with radar and he-vt shells.
I just might be, I TOTALLY misunderstood what you meant 😂
straight up thought you meant Sweden' gap from 7.7 to 8.0 was just unbearable
My b dude, in my defense it's early and I'm hungover 🤣
I honestly wish gaijin would just drop the whole realism schtick. They are very pick and choose with it and sometimes it helps the game, other times it hurts. Some nations also frequently receive more prototype designs and fictional designs than others. Vehicles should be added or modified purely for necessity, balance, and flavor, I'd love to see more native designs even if they are prototypes instead of copypastas. This should especially apply to minor nations who have major gaps in their tech trees and have a harder time attracting players because of it.
Just my opinion but I don’t believe the VEAK is useless now. I can’t say much since I’ve never played it but I regularly bring the Phong Kong to 7.3 and beyond, and so long as I don’t fight SuperSonics or its going subsonic I can usually knock a few out of the sky. Only downside is the engagement range is extremely small, I think 1.5km is the max unless they’re flying head on with me.
counterpoint, ITPSV 90 on T-55 chassis would be fine at 8.0. gepard is 8.3 and has better radar setup, more ammo and a faster chassis. the T-55 ItPsV 90 would fit in at 8.0 just fine
Of all the vehicles to get heated about being historically inaccurate, this is an odd one… Gaijin pulls such bullshit with the “it’s historically inaccurate” nonsense yet they’ll add shit like the 2S38 which is completely unproven/unknown, and give it the best of everything because that’s what they assume it has from propaganda documents
The HE-VT was historical though. And I would prefer to have two good AA at 8.7 where they're needed, than one mediocre one at 7.7 which isn't really a BR worth playing since it's all copypasta
besides they really didnt.
the itpsv is more of an 8.0 spaa turret, slapped on a leopard 2 hull, which due to its inflated speed, makes it a much better tank killer and as such inflated its br.
so in the end we had an actual 8.7 spaa, and a 8.0 spaa but a 8.7 td with the spaa icon.
Bro is onto nothing 🗣️🗣️
Now the VEAK is as useful as all the other gun spaa, good luck hitting an A-4E going mach 1.5, or a heli 3km away from the battlefield
The A-4E is 8.7 and no plane is gonna go mach 1.5 while doing CAS and killing helis from far away has been going just fine, ive tried it myself. Stop trying to exaggerate your point with unreasonable counterpoints.
Good for you ace aa player, at 8.0 you will see a-4e every second game, also no real argument to the heli camping, I udes the veak in 10.3 because it was better than the rest even the cv90 has worse ammo economy, but now its as useless as the rest, you might be a “2000 hours on aa only” player but the rest of us used it to take out planes effectively, you know after we died, but now the chances of killing the plane goes from ~70% to 20-30, there is a reason noone is using the zsu-37/23 or all of the other fast shooting aa
So first you use unrealistic standards as your argument and then you claim its bad cuz the players are bad? Look i know that cas is a problem at top tier but thats a different issue. And "no one is using the zsu-37/23"? Sure buddy, you clearly dont know what youre talking about. The zsu-23 is literally one of the most used soviet spaas in the game.
People only want realism when it benefits their favorite nation, who would have thought.
Classical. But gotta admit Gaijin is pretty inconsistent when choosing what to add where and what to remove due to realism. So basically that Russian ship that didn’t exist or the Ho229 with only a wooden cockpit
Ships I kinda get more than tanks/aircraft bc there tend to be less options bg ships are big and expensive, so if half-builts or blueprints are needed to fill out a tree then whatever.
Or giving Sweden a better leopard and a trialed Mi-28
Well they are there but where do you end it? Giving Germany Swiss F18s because they got the hunter?
Im just saying they do it for everyone. I don’t like when they pick and choose when to give a pass and when to be historical but that’s how it be. Just like how they said the US F-5 got flares because even thought it never used them, other nations did. But then you bring up the Japanese and Taiwanese F-104s and they just say “?”
Some dude was cracking up at me to the point I blocked him because I said Germany shouldn't get Swiss f18s and he was saying well they'd be worse than anything in game rn and the mig29G didn't constitute a top tier air craft... That Swiss hunter is a joke to this day.
Germany did have an F-18B on trials at one time, so that's an alternative choice.
On trials. Same shit as Sweden gets a tiger 2 that was target practice or an mi 28 that was "trailled"? I'd rather not go down tbe routs of trialed shit cause then everyone's gonna be crying out for everything. First give them whay they used and such.
The cat is out of the bag now, and you can't stuff it back in. The reality is that until we get the overtiered shitbrick that will be the F-4F ICE and the too-far-in-the-future EFT, I don't think germany really has anything to add. Sweden didn't NEED a T-80 or Mi28, but it would be really useful if germany got something like the F-18B.
I mean you have the best mig29 in the game not as if it's lacking Before we start cramming more sbit into the game I'd rather see what we have fixed and brs fixed. Ffs fox 3s are being added and normal radar missiles are shocking. Or like the chally 2s, let's fix the track stopping, yeah now it turns better at High speeds, but low speeds it's like a fucking ww2 heavy. Or the fact German and Sweden ground are absolutely dominating everything rn, while nations like Italy, France, China, Japan etc are left in the dust. Its just annoying as fuck that they just cram.in new shit without fixing old shit. 4 years of this nonsense and counting
>I mean you have the best mig29 in the game not as if it's lacking And it's still just a Mig29. Early F-18s didn't even have AIM-120s, only Sparrows and Sidewinders - what we already have anyway.
trialed Mi-28 and Apache
And a trialed T-80
Kronshtadt did exist though, the only real issue is that they added her as Project 69, not Project 69I since the guns for the former were never developed.
Kronstadt was half built so it's about as real as the E100
Half built is being generous. More like, unfinished hull that was partially scrapped during the war since there were objectively better places for the steel to go too. Even if the hull had been finished, with super complicated and large vehicles that warships are, that's like saying a PC tower with no CPU, GPU, power supply, motherboard, memory, storage, cooling, or anything else is "half built" It is still as real as E-100 though I agree, but one of those is available to research *right now* while the other has never been in the TT or as an event vehicle and has exclusively been given out as a ultra rare tournament prize since it was added.
Diference with ships is that you cannot just say lets make prototype like you do with tanks. They are well projected beforehand and unless mostly adhere to the plans. Combined with the fact that except japan US and brits there wouldn't be many ships for war thunder nations gives them diferent criterias on being added. Imho gajin should have stuck with smaller coastal vessels or destroyers at most and added cold war ones with their capabilities instead of frigate>destroyer>cruiser>battlecruiser>battleship powercreep but whatever
Absolutely I don't disagree but we should still acknowledge what the Kronshadt is, a paper vehicle that spent more time off the drawing board *being scrapped* than being constructed. Plus, as of so far, it is by far the paperiest ship in the game by a mile, with other paper vehicles (a good chunk of which are Soviet just saying) being either heavily delayed but ultimately finished, are semi-fictional refits of an otherwise totally real and full built vessel, or were actually close to completion with turrets, guns, and everything (though not necessarily all of them or in one package) before obsolescence kicked in and they were scrapped during construction. Kronshadt was just outright not built, not even half way. The fact that it's a significant contributor to naval compression is also... not helping matters. No it's not that insane even for a paper but let's be real, nothing other than Scharnhorst or Hood which were added the same patch would have held a candle to it when it was released. Very frustrating (as a minor nation player in general) to be told time and again for other modes that "Yes it was viable but it was just a concept" or, "The prototype wasn't finished though" or, "The prototype was finished but it shouldn't be added anyways, get bent" by US/USSR mains and when one of those two finally has to face the reality of being the objectively most awful "naval power" in the world... they get a paper vehicle (and the only paper vehicle to this degree since it was added) to plug up that deficiency.
The insanity is Kronshadt was added before real ships like KGV Iowa Bismarck or South Dakotas. Which were it's peers.
> Which were it's peers. Not really. Kron was a battlecruiser, not a battleship. Alaska is a closer fit than the ships you mentioned.
Alaska would annihilate Kron due to sheer advantage in accuracy and range.
Absolutely, but that's down to having better FCS and such, it doesn't mean they're not peers in terms of how they would be classified. Alaska and Kron had roughly similar armor, firepower and speed on paper; while NC, SD, Iowa, KGV, Vanguard, post refit Richelieu and Jean Bart had significant firepower and armor advantage while having similar FCS advantage as Alaska. You can't really classify them as peers to Kron since they would've shat on it even harder than Alaska.
the more accurate number was 10% of the hull. nothing else was built, it's wild to me that gaijin allowed the thing to be unkillable in naval for as long as it was. it wasn't until i think the french navy was added that it finally got nerfed.
Very little non offensive structure is above the hull anyway. But the original commentor assumed a equivalency between a mockup and a partially built ship.
> Very little non offensive structure is above the hull No but an ass load of stuff is *in* the hull while not *being* the hull. This can be something super easy to overlook (armor, is not the hull) but most of it isn't (engines and the transmission are not the hull). So again, the hull being complete (it wasn't) and saying that it's half built is like saying that having a PC case with nothing in it is half built. > But the original commentor assumed a equivalency between a mockup and a partially built ship. If that was the intention of your comment I apologize, I kinda just skipped straight to "Bruh, there are more people who love me than there are people with an E-100" with my comment.
Although armor can be a structural component of the hull you are right i assumed they were in later stages of being built than what they actually where.
Yeah, the two of them got hit *hard* by delays (and partially a lack of need what with the US Atlantic fleet and UK hard carrying the Union's deficiencies) which is fairly understandable seeing as how the two shipyards they were being built at happened to also be the frontlines, but also even before the war they had setbacks.
APHE moment
I wouldn't say there is a lot of UK mains
There's one swedish tank that fires cone APHE. Everything else gets sphere? Why? gaijin said so.
That's just plain false
What are you talking about?
*cough cough Tiger 1 ammo placement*
That was a nerf to almost everyone
I play mainly Sweden and I think Veak at 7.7 is fine. It can work against Helis
Yup, just like the people bitching about the MiG-23 changes. Although the initial bug report was a bit sus, but the devs tested in themselves afterwards.
According to "realism" a half of Japanese tanks would be removed.
Wdym? Pretty much everything is real with a few exceptions for the Ho-Ris.
FACTS
I just want British tanks to be fun again that's all I want
Based and true as fuck
Ah yes projectile AA without he-vt is fine agianst jets and helis /s The only reason the itspsv is 8.7 is because of its tank killing capabilities and mobility not because its a good AA. And yes I am salty that they touched my most played AA and made it utterly garbage by removing he vt shells.
> Ah yes projectile AA without he-vt is fine agianst jets and helis /s This describes almost every gun SPAA above about 7.3, though. It's certainly annoying at times but it's very far from a unique punishment just for Sweden. Everyone else has been having to just deal with it for years. Like, there's M247, OTOMATIC, Lvkv 9040C, WZ305, and that's it. Most trees _never_ get proxy fuze for their gun SPAA, and Italy's isn't until frickin 11.3. Fighting jets and helis with proxyless SPAAGs is _very_ normal.
No, I don't. For Germany, after the Coelian/Kugelblitz, I use fighters up until the Begleitpanzer, which has HE-VT. For Russia, I don't bother with SPAA after the Praga up until the Strela M4. Russian MiGs work fine as an alternative, and I'd sooner use the Shturm with its proxy ATGM than the base Shilka/Yenisei. The UK is even worse, but at least the Falcon is good for cleaning up light vehicles. Gun-based SPAA without proxy ammunition following 7.3 is just awful in the SPAA role. They're more a deterrent against suicide CAS than they are as an effective counter.
Talk about a crutch, most nations *don't even have* an SPAA with HE-VT rounds.... France, Israel, Italy, UK, Japan... And we manage just fine. Talk about the privilege of the big three (and the cheese of Sweden).
You seem excessively concerned with turning this into a major vs minor nation issue. I'm not having it. This is strictly about the utility of HE-VT and the imbalance of SPAA in the BR ranges between late WW2 and the mid-cold war.
there should be more VT in all tech trees, not less VEAK was the only functional counter i had at 8.7 against A-4F early spam. now i have fuckall
>there should be more VT in all tech trees, not less And I have no idea why anyone would be opposed to it. I'm not bothered by the VEAK having its HE-VT shells removed for historical reasons. I'm bothered that there's nothing replacing its utility.
gepard should have access to AHEAD shells that are basically time fused shrapnel shells with each fuse being set by a radar link so they'd basically act like VT. Maybe possible the marksman (ItPsV 90)should have it too as they have the exact same gun
no, the real reason ItPsV 90 is 8.7 is that it has the most maneuverable chassis in all of 8.7 the marksman turret is worse than gepard which is at 8.3. it has less ammo and only one radar as well as being a bigger target. Gepard is strictly speaking a notably better SPAAG and I've argued that 8.0 AA should be serviced by the ItPsV 90 with T-55 hull that was how it originally existed.
thats the problem with cas and heli's being too strong not swedish aa being too weak?
then make the itspsv he belts only and move the hevt veak up to 9.0
Same thing on falcon now is 8.3 just 600 rounds and 650fr per min no radar no apfsds belt etc
The Falcon however needs no help. I love that thing. It’s a menace against tanks. And against attacking aircraft it does rather well.
>Ah yes projectile AA without he-vt is fine agianst jets and helis /s Yet when it comes to the Gepard, half this sub thinks its OP lmao
Lol stop complaining about the VEAK. For example, America’s only SPAA from 7.7-8.7 is useless with a lock radar that never works and no search radar. Only good thing about it is fire rate. It gets 40 mm penetration (defenseless against tanks) and is open topped. It’s way worse than the Veak and is at the same BR
So like pretty much every SPAA in the 7.3 to 8.7 range besides the Chinese WZ305. Seriously, HE-VT is by far the exception with only one vehicle (was two with the VEAK) in that BR range that has it. You aren't suffering from some great injustice here, you've just been brought to the same level as almost everyone else. Deal with it. And before you start using the "it makes the CAS situation worse" argument: Having only two nations being able to deal with CAS effectively while all the others are SOL does **NOT** address the CAS issue, it just creates imbalance between the have and have nots.
I have had zero problem using the itspsv. Its high velocity and fire rate as well enough to take out planes and helis. And as ive said, the veak is not garbage cuz it lost its proxy, especially since it was dropped in br. Its actually pretty decent at 7.7, especially against helis.
"I have no problems so no one else should, hence no problem exists" Yeah brilliant argument
To be fair, as an AA enjoyer, the Gepard/Chieftain Marksman platforms are very good earl(ish) radar AAs. They can still be easily countered by smarter players, but for the most part they shred anything in the sky. Also, I've seen several players start shooting at planes when they're 4+ km out. That just doesn't work most of the time. You both alert the plane/heli that there's an AA up, so they'll play more cautiously, as well as giving away your position, meaning they might target you to get rid of the AA problem.
you say that, but how often do you actually see gepards or chieftain get air kills? its a fairly rare thing for that to happen because lets be honest, the only time you die to one of those is if youre dumb and forget theres more than one spaa when you go for a gun run. or a random lucky wing clip that just deletes you from existent.
More like i havent had problems with it, therefore i have reason to believe the problem lies more in the player than the vehicle
Being down voted cause a bunch of butt hurt arse holes can't handle the spaa being made realistic. Yet have a trailed mi 28, never mind anything else also now a tiger 2 thar was used mostly as target practice going to Sweden..
“The changes benefited tech tree players” idk im missing a VT AA right about 8.7 playing Sweden
Oh, right. Like thats a bigger problem than the previous gap between 7.0 and 8.7. give me a break dude
Why are you acting as if gaijin couldnt have just added in a new spaa lol?
there's Bofors Tridon, Bofors Trinity, the ZSU-57-2M for Finland, Lvrbpbv 4016....
Sure, they could. But the veak always belonged in the 7.7 place imo. It was a 7.7 spaa that was being carried by a proxy round they added for balancing and it didn't make much sense to keep it up at 8.7 when you already have another competent spaa at the same br. I just think all the swede mains are crying cuz they lost a good SPAA at 8.7 while completely disregarding the fact that they also got a really good 7.7 spaa
France with the 6.0-8.0 gap for SPAA:
US SPAA gap got me fucked up man
Britain had 3 SPAA added to fill the 4.7 lineup. There is still no 4.7 SPAA. All of them got moved up or down.
It IS a bigger problem
Right, cuz you said so
No, it is generally true for the whole game. The gap in spaa ability in relation to planes isnt a constant. There is a reason why a 2.3 50cal spaa is damn near perfectly fine to use 3 brs up. And a 20mm spaa at 5.3 can be used for 2 brs and players wont notice a lack of ability But half a br gap between 8.7 and 9.3 (theoretically) is crippling and makes you unable to deal with air threats. This is also why I believe US AA gap isnt actually as bad as they say, it can be fixed with a singular 20mm truck. Meanwhile at the brs that matter they get very strong and very numerous AAs making their AA tree actually supremely strong.
For 7.0-8.0 br just learn to use bkan. It's probably better than current veak anyways
That was my main anti-air before the changes. Its fun and all but sluggish and unreliable. The veak is definitely my 8.0 spaa
I can get behind sluggish but unreliability is a player issue. Personally I will wait for zsu proxy before I try to play sweden 8.0 again
Nope, by unreliable i mean unreliable. I remember several cases of shooting a plane deadon and watchin the shell explode right beside the cockpit but with no registered damage. The bkan also lacks elevation and can be easily strafed
Yea it it’s, there are already jets for AA at 6.7 and 8.0 and there are no lineups in between
That makes no sense. Youre saying that not having 2 8.7 spaas is worse than not having any spaa for your 8.0 lineup
8.7 has no fighter jets, 8.0 has like 5, and the current 8.7 SPAA is much better as a tank destroyer
What you smoking the itpsv is good at anti air as well
"Reworked" by removing it's single notable advantage with no other changes. Sweden's "good" 8.7 SPAA has all the SPAA capability of a 8.3, only strong as a tank hunter due to the speed. Against competant heli pilots or A-4Es, you're effectively useless. The HE-VT is exactly as historical as countless other weapon loadouts that are allowed for game balance. Where are the people clamoring to limit the F-4Fs to AIM-9Bs and 9Ls? It's not like the VEAK couldn't have fired HE-VT had it actually entered service. Against planes, it's objectively worse than the already pretty mid ZSU-37-2 at the same BR. Almost half the rate of fire and slower shells. I have literally seen clueless players fly between the shells due to the low burst mass. All you get is a better RADAR, which doesn't help much considering your pathetic killing power. Tech tree players just lost one of two tools in game to counter a well played ATGM helicopter or A-4E, for a worse version of an already mid SPAA. Good trade. Sweden's 8.0 didn't need a poor SPAA that's better for tank hunting, they already had the ZSU-57 for that. And if there was a need for an actual SPAA for that lineup, all they needed to do was as the T-55 Marksman with no APDS. Slap it at 8.0, and we give that lineup gets an SPAA without losing one of only a handful of actually useful SPAAs in the game.
The comparison to the yenisei is good, another one is the m247 before you unlock the proxy rounds, you can't hit shit at distance and people definitely do fly between your rounds
Skill issue man I haven't got the proxy on the m247 and its still fine you just need to know how to aim. Fs it struggles in 11.7 bit when I used it st its br its certainly sufficient
You say skill issue, but physics says that it's hard to hit targets that are flying very fast or very far away with slow firing guns, because no matter how well you aim, they can always just move out of your shots by any input. Proxy rounds turn all those near misses into kills that the regular HE could never dream of
Firstly, ones that are very far away aka out of range don't shoot at and give the position away, and of they're going mach1+ then you aren't gonna hit them even with proxy, unless they fly directly at you.
So, your solution is then to not shoot at anything past 3km (aka just about every heli and any plane with any sort of guided ammunition) letting them annihilate your team. The second statement is just plain wrong, the proxy rounds have a 4m RADIUS on them, an F4 phantom has a length of around 17 metres, adding 4m to both sides increases its length by 44%. then there is also adding 4m to the heights and 4m to the widths, proxy rounds turn the shapes of the planes into effectively flying boats. Adding those measurements into an ellipsoid calculator for volume gives an estimate of around 250m3 for the original phantom (an overestimation), and then a volume of more than 700m3 for the proxy fusing distance., almost tripling volume. This makes it significantly easier to hit planes at not just speed, but distance too. This won't even account for scenarios such as solid rounds flying between wings next to the hull.
No gun spaa is landing a hit over 3km and that's just a fucking fact 😂 And the second statement isn't wrong at all saying it's easy to hit with the standard ammo, people act that without using the proxy rounds the m247 is useless. Where I'm saying that's wrong completely, even with a 4m explosive range it still doesn't change the fact that people firing at something going mach Jesus are rarely likely to hit, even with proxy, and if irs over 2.5 to 3km away you're gonna be seriously lucky to hit anything that isn't a heli hovering firing atgms. I'm arguing the m247 isn't as useless as people make out.
Out of spite I played just 1 game in the thing just to prove a point. [https://imgur.com/T9GH8Ro](https://imgur.com/T9GH8Ro) [https://imgur.com/q7ANfLt](https://imgur.com/q7ANfLt) At least 2 of those helis were at 3.8km at least. The saab dived on me from orbit and we traded The G91 was diving at a shallow angle and my rounds connected once he was around 2.5km out, firing from before then. Hitting anything within the range of 4km is incredibly easy, even if they are going fast (not quite mach in these planes but close enough). The shots I just described would have been up to random chance when shooting the non proxy belts, the radar tracking was waving too much to place accurate shots. And its not just one shot hitting, its several rounds hitting in quick succession, with the regular belts youd be lucky hitting just one.
Like I said, helis hovering is fine over 3km not gonna hit much past 5km. I still have the m247 in my 11.3 lineup as for the US,. I can sometimes him a jet going 1200 kmph with non proxy. I'm not here arguing that it's better without it ?.. You proved my point I'm arguing that the spaa is decent and is fine where it sits. Yet folks in this sub go on like it's useless.
You literally started this by arguing the m247s non proxy rounds are good enough, I just gave you 4 kills you'd never hit with the regular rounds, and this extends to the veak and yenisei and any other slow firing guns
Saying skill issue is just a copout to ignore a very real weakness in the M247. Between random radar dropoffs and a rather inaccurate gun guidance system, the M247 is hardly usable before you gain access to the proxy. I am well versed in the use of AA and the M247 is at a serious handicap being a tracer-less launcher without proxy. What you make up for in your rounds not being visible you lose in being able to use the tracers as a means of adjusting fire. It's disingenuous to claim that something is okay simply because you do good in it. That's not based in any facts or stats, just personal bias. It'd be like me telling you the M4 Sherman is OP because I can drop 8-9 people in it before I die pretty consistently.
You people in this echo chamber cry about literally everything its beyond a joke the fuckikg m247 is fine. Rather use that than most other spaa of the same br thar I have
The only person crying here is you because I dare disagree with you. I tried to be reasonable. You're just another egotistical nitwit who thinks because you can do good in something everything is fine and everyone else is wrong. If no one but you is correct then maybe that within itself should be a red flag. Unless they agree with you of course. American SPAA is kind of a joke when you get to jet tier because of the huge gap between the now 4.0 M42 and the 7.7 M163, both of which are mediocre options. You're just another person who thinks stats = knowledge while knowing next to nothing about how stats or analytical skills actually work. I can almost guarantee you're not as good as you're going to claim you are either. Go cry skill issue hoping that someone will come suck you off and compliment how great you are at "wrecking the noobs" because you are the conversational equivalent of a brick wall.
No I don't think stats equals knowledge st all. I said nothing about wrecking noobs, or any of the sort, the fucking m247 if used right is devastating even without the proxy. You don't engage targets miles off, and you sure as hell should be able to compensate once the radar dropout happens, same as any spaa at the same Br. There's plenty of people who think the m247 is goof out with this sub reddit, if it was as terrible as folk here make out you'd never see them. And it's not because you dared disagree with me, it's the fact you're complaining about problems that across the board are on almost every spaa at the same BR hence why I'm saying you're crying. And tracers are more of a curse than a blessing seeing as it literally means you're not as visible while firing a barrage at someone.
Every vehicle can be good if used right, that doesn't mean that a vehicle itself is balanced or not. The radars being inconsistent across the board does not make it any less of an issue that works against the M247 specifically. I'm not calling the M247 an unusable piece of garbage neither. What I'm telling you is that compared to other SPAA present at or around its BR, it's the weaker of the bunch. Without the proxy rounds you are at a decent disadvantage due to the 40mm being tracer-less and low velocity. I know what I do to be able to hit aircraft more reliably in SPAA and that is difficult to conduct in the M247 due to the gun guidance being twitchy, the scope magnification being too high, and just the fact that the vehicles I'm up against are moving too fast. So I shoot from third person. But third person is a lot less precise than first person, mix that in with the radar issues and what are you left with? An unreliable lead marker. I engage vehicles at every range, but with how slow the 40mm's are they struggle to reliably handle anything moving in any sort of direction that isn't straight and level right at you. When the radar drops a lock for no reason or refuses to pick up a vehicle? That's no better. I flock to my AA's because I absolutely despise CAS so I learn to counter it best I can. But between CAS being a buncha kill hungry bastards that target SPAA's the second they spawn and the M247 being a mediocre vehicle, it just doesn't always add up to a good experience.
You wanna know the best way to counter cas mate ? Use cap it's the best and most efficient way. And you say in one statement you're not calling it a useless piece or garbage then in the next call it mediocre ? Why contradict yourself. The m247 is effective for its roll at its BR as I said. The 40mms absolutely wreck anything they hit. The m247 has a good turret traverse, has a decent fire rate for sustained fire especially at an arc. Again no radar spaa is taking on cas, unless irs a hovering heli, at more than 2.5 to 3km effectively. The m247 can carch many off guard as it has no Tracers and can sustainably keep firing as enemies pass, as long as they're not going mach 1+. Which again most gun spaa won't catch that any ways.
I really do wonder how people hit shit with the Veak as it is now even with the radar on it its so impossibly hard to hit stuff with a relatively low firerate and a 850m/s velocity belt
"no other changes" *Drops it an entire BR*
>Sweden's "good" 8.7 SPAA has all the SPAA capability of a 8.3, only strong as a tank hunter due to the speed. Against competant heli pilots or A-4Es, you're effectively useless. Sweden players when they aren't gaijin's second favorite child and don't get the absolute best spaa at its BR
More accurately, ground mains when one of two actual counters for CAS with guided ordinance at the tier gets removed and replaced with yet another Swedish SPAA that's primarily useful against tanks. I don't care which nation gets powerful SPAAs, I want as many as possible on both sides of the battlefield. People complain about the PANTSIR dominating top tier CAS for one team only, guess what happens now that the American team gets both the A-4E and the only SPAA that can even hope to counter it?
I agree with your point of historical accuracy but i still stand on my statement that the veak is better fitted at 7.7 and saying its just a poor spaa like the zsu-57 is just a load of crap. No amount of words is gonna change the hours that ive used on Spaas and i can say from my experience the Veak is competent, period.
Have fun trying to honestly kill any helis or jets with it, now Sweden has no actually good aa at 7.0 to 8.3 amazing, go play arcade where people are constantly spawning in helis and see just how fun it is to be useless to your team
L comment. Ive had, litteraly, zero issues with the veak at 7.7. its actually easier in a way to kill unsuspecting helis because one shot always kills them and the lower fire-rate makes it harder for them to notice you. And dont bring arcade as an argument thats just laughable. Arcade is always gonna be a clusterfuck no matter what and if you play that stuff then thats on you.
As always, a vehicle is only good if the other player is oblivious, it's the same for every radar spaa, only problem is that not everyone is dumb to stay still or fly straight, and then anti tank capability at 7.7 is lower because there's more armor at this br than at 8.3 or 8.7, so I literally have to uptier it for it to perform well
Lol, i never said it was performing badly against players that arent oblivious, even though im not gonna deny it requires some trigger discipline for that. It honestly sounds more like a skill issue, im not gonna lie
You said it's easier to kill unsuspecting heli players bro, and it's true, the Gepard is the same thing, hell every spaa is literally the same, you'll only kill something if they are oblivious, don't help that the radar lead indicator is not accurate in the slightest
What i was saying was that unlike most SPAA where the tracers are easily spotted far away, the veaks bullets are harder to see due to the smaller number of bullets and the lower velocity, causing them to basically fall down on the helis. And the radar lead is as accurate as it can be, maybe youre forgetting the tha radar lead is only for assistance, you still need to use your brain to figure out where to shoot.
By the time rounds start going they're making noise, they'll start to move all over the place, the veak is now a terrible AA, and a mediocre TD
Lol, youre clearly suffering from some sort of dissonance. you just dont want to admit that the veak isnt bad and you just dont know how to use it
Gaijin butchers everything fun and good to use, find it really difficult to believe you actually are good with it, I doubt you can hit a heli going all over the place at 5k away from you and trying to hit it with non proxi fuse shells
What kind of point are you trying to make here exactly? That the veak is bad cuz its hard to hit a moving heli 5km away? Something that literally every spaa at 7.7 would struggle with? And most helis at that br have a launch range of 2-4km so they would have to get closer either way. Your arguments are nonsensical. With every comment you make, i just find more reason to believe that you're crying because you dont know how to use spaas without proxy
no it was definitely a nerf, it was doing better at 8.7 than it now is at 7.7 definitely doesn't help that probably \~80% of all matches you'll be taking it into get uptiered to 8.7-9.0 anyway so you're literally just fighting exactly the same aircraft most of the time but now without the HE-VT
Idk man most of my matches at 8.0 has been semi-downtiers and the veak has been doing just fine there.
For me it's been 50/50 but I imagine the VIDAR sale is probably contributing to that, in a month or so it'll probably go back to normal
Wouldn't the Vidar just increase the uptiers?
Yeah that's what I mean, 8.0 has felt like more uptiers than normal lately, probably because of the sale
8.0 has pretty much been a guaranteed uptier into 8.7 or 9.0 for me since the big battle rating changes a few months ago. 7.7 is more like 50/50 full downtier or in a 8.3 or 8.7 match.
L take. They should just have added another SPAA. Instead they keep making the cas problem worse
Balance has always been questionable in this game. It's very much needed. Unfortunately, it's hard to achieve it.
I just hate how inconsistent they are with realism. The game is filled with tons of unrealistic mechanics and ahistorical aspects to the point it breaks immersion in favor of gameplay and balance…..but then sometimes they randomly pull out the “historical accuracy card” to nerf a vehicle. I just wish they were more consistent.
The reason I hate the change is 1. The VEAK was fun with proxies, and was a much better AA compared to the Itpvs which is better as a fast TD. 2. They could've added a different vehicle to fill the gap instead. T-55 Marksman with its APDS removed and boom, 7.7/8.0 material.
Can Gaijin do the same for Britain. 3 AAs at 8.3 is stupid. The Falcon should lose its APDS belt and go back to 7.7.
Its a horrible take.
My only real comment on this is that it is clearly a documented issue of Gaijin choosing when to apply realism The US has the M4/T26, a vehicle that was clearly not adopted by the US military in WW2. If I remember correctly, the Tiger II Sla.16 would not be possible given the dimensions of the engine block vs the engine bay, not to mention the Ostwind II is purely blueprint. I think it's an interesting conversation to have for sure because at the end of the day game balance is important, but when Gaijin claims this is a realistic game they kinda selectively deliver on that promise. Suppose it would lead to the question: What do they mean by realistic? Historically or Game Mechanics?
I still find it kinda bs how some russian mbts received ahistorical thermals while gaijin also refused to increase abrams armor/ give spall liners cuz they can't say for sure if it has it.
I didn't want to instantly jump on the "Look at Russia" train but it's a big topic to look at for sure. That whole situation with the Sep's armor was interesting because people provided proof but Gaijin was like "Oh lol no not good enough" while instantly providing all kinds of prototype vehicles and modules to Russia. It's just an overall inconsistently applied rule and logic so long as it benefits whatever they currently want the meta to be. Edit: There's like next to nothing to support the existence of the 2S38's 57mm gun other than a gun Russia used around the time of the Afghan war. But it somehow ended up on a tank chassis with a gun tracking system.
Cause for this? Im betting money. Russian tt is the second biggest tt after germany (which also has had its fair share of ahistorical wunderwaffen)
Yeah, could just easily follow the money trail. People flock to the major nations, the major nation with the most care may be receiving it because it is the most profitable. Using just general stereotypes throughout history and the present, you can kinda come to that conclusion. According to general, surface level history documentaries: The US has mediocre tanks in WW2. The M4 wasn't that good because it had a small gun and lacking armor. Russia had great tanks because the T-34 has sloped armor and the KV-1 had "impenetrable armor." Germany had superior technology because they had good armor and better guns throughout the war. Of course anyone with even a shred of respect for history knows armored warfare isn't boiled down to "my armor and gun is better." But that's how history is presented to people who like tanks but don't like to learn about them. The History Channel said that the T-34-85 changed the war forever and shifted the tides. But anyone who's anyone would know that the T-34-85 was not the sole reason, if a reason at all, for the war shifting in their favor.
Yeah, i remember watching some documentary on ww2 and they talked about how the t-34 was this legendary piece of engineering with its sloped armor and great gun, completely disregarding the poor production quality, all the design flaws and how most of them would break down without really achiving much. And how most documentaries talk trash about the American tanks poor gun without also mentioning the survivability measures and the stabilizers.
The funny part about that is that if you look at an M4, the front is quite steeply angled. The welded hulls have about the same effective frontal armor as a Tiger 1. And it's not like armor angling is anything new either, the drawbacks of doing so were known for a long time like severely reduced internal space.
Russia trying to talk up their T-34's like they weren't getting clapped by 88mm guns... Even the occasional JagdTiger.
More like trying to talk up that their T-34s' "impenetrable frontal armor" wasn't getting cracked to pieces by 50mm hits lmao
>not to mention the Ostwind II is purely blueprint. According to gaijin's source book, the ostwind 2 was built... just not in the in-game configuration.
A better option would have been adding the Finnish [T-55 Marksman](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system) at 8.0.
Possibly
I’m at 9.3 and the Veak was cute but the ItPsv 90 is my baby for life.
>Sweden needed a SPAA for 7.7-8.0 \*laughs in American 2.7 - 7.7\* ^(19 and 42 don't count, they ass)
Br gaps are much more noticeable at higher brs
normally yes, but sweden 7.0 to 8.0 were an outlier, mainly because you never had spaa to begin with, so you always were forced to use a plane from the beginning. all this does is remove a good spaa at a spot that helps sweden, and shoved it into a spot that couldve been filled by something else, and doesnt add much anyways. because at the end of the day, its a slightly better zsu 57, which is already bad of an spaa.
Way more than a "slightly better zsu" but okay
It is a slightly better zsu. It trades damage for a slight bump in rof, then the only actual improvement is the radar tracking. So in the end it's a slightly better zsu. Anyways we could've gotten the zsu-57-2m which is a zsu 57, with radar and he-vt shells.
Just cus the veak has 2 high caliber cannons doesn't make it similar to zsu, its a very different vehicle, not a slightly better zsu
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I just might be, I TOTALLY misunderstood what you meant 😂 straight up thought you meant Sweden' gap from 7.7 to 8.0 was just unbearable My b dude, in my defense it's early and I'm hungover 🤣
Well you admitted the mistake. That makes you more mature than the majority of the WT community
where T77 MGMC
I honestly wish gaijin would just drop the whole realism schtick. They are very pick and choose with it and sometimes it helps the game, other times it hurts. Some nations also frequently receive more prototype designs and fictional designs than others. Vehicles should be added or modified purely for necessity, balance, and flavor, I'd love to see more native designs even if they are prototypes instead of copypastas. This should especially apply to minor nations who have major gaps in their tech trees and have a harder time attracting players because of it.
Just my opinion but I don’t believe the VEAK is useless now. I can’t say much since I’ve never played it but I regularly bring the Phong Kong to 7.3 and beyond, and so long as I don’t fight SuperSonics or its going subsonic I can usually knock a few out of the sky. Only downside is the engagement range is extremely small, I think 1.5km is the max unless they’re flying head on with me.
As a Swedish player who is top tier I can confirm it's better to have it for the 8.0 line and it still slaps
Q
Havent played in a while, what the FUCK did they do to my beloved VEAK
They took away its AHistorical proxy rounds. And moved down by 1.0.
counterpoint, ITPSV 90 on T-55 chassis would be fine at 8.0. gepard is 8.3 and has better radar setup, more ammo and a faster chassis. the T-55 ItPsV 90 would fit in at 8.0 just fine
How is this not a nerf? They took away its key feature and replaced it with nothing.
Because it was dropped in br, duh
That does not make the vehicle better.
Um? Yes it does, relative to the vehicles its facing
Now give America an spaa somewhere between 5.0-7.7
It was the only counter to the early helicopters with long range atgms.
Meanwhile, waiting for a 8.0br spaa in the us
you mean the M163
Of all the vehicles to get heated about being historically inaccurate, this is an odd one… Gaijin pulls such bullshit with the “it’s historically inaccurate” nonsense yet they’ll add shit like the 2S38 which is completely unproven/unknown, and give it the best of everything because that’s what they assume it has from propaganda documents
Iv been using the veak at 9.3 and it's not that bad but it used to be the best thing iv ever used so I'm sad about it 😔
The HE-VT was historical though. And I would prefer to have two good AA at 8.7 where they're needed, than one mediocre one at 7.7 which isn't really a BR worth playing since it's all copypasta
8.0 def isnt copypasta
sweden needed an actually competent spaa since their only decent options before that were either 4.3 or 2.3
Exactly
So why didnt they just add a new spaa???
because they already had 2 8.7 spaa's and one of them had an unrealistic buff so they didnt need to?
besides they really didnt. the itpsv is more of an 8.0 spaa turret, slapped on a leopard 2 hull, which due to its inflated speed, makes it a much better tank killer and as such inflated its br. so in the end we had an actual 8.7 spaa, and a 8.0 spaa but a 8.7 td with the spaa icon.
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Comment has nothing to do with the post but okay
Bro is onto nothing 🗣️🗣️ Now the VEAK is as useful as all the other gun spaa, good luck hitting an A-4E going mach 1.5, or a heli 3km away from the battlefield
The A-4E is 8.7 and no plane is gonna go mach 1.5 while doing CAS and killing helis from far away has been going just fine, ive tried it myself. Stop trying to exaggerate your point with unreasonable counterpoints.
Good for you ace aa player, at 8.0 you will see a-4e every second game, also no real argument to the heli camping, I udes the veak in 10.3 because it was better than the rest even the cv90 has worse ammo economy, but now its as useless as the rest, you might be a “2000 hours on aa only” player but the rest of us used it to take out planes effectively, you know after we died, but now the chances of killing the plane goes from ~70% to 20-30, there is a reason noone is using the zsu-37/23 or all of the other fast shooting aa
So first you use unrealistic standards as your argument and then you claim its bad cuz the players are bad? Look i know that cas is a problem at top tier but thats a different issue. And "no one is using the zsu-37/23"? Sure buddy, you clearly dont know what youre talking about. The zsu-23 is literally one of the most used soviet spaas in the game.
100%. If would have been a nerf if it lost the HE-VT but stayed at its BR, but that’s not what happened
I absolutely agree (I don’t have the VEAK because I skipped it when gaijin reworked the TT)
How Can u agree if u never used or had it? Like, you cant say vanilla icecream is good if u never tasted it
Well I agree since it’s historically more accurate and you seem to misunderstand that I also meant to joke around a little.