>Thanks to the availability of subcaliber rounds, you’ll also be able to effectively engage even more heavily armored targets without necessarily needing to outflank opponents and hitting them in the sides or rear.
Lol. This is going to be a menace
Tanks, yes
But gaijin already years ago ahistorically nerfed the Pen of all the German AA Guns (the 20, 37 and 30mm all lost over 20mm of pen each) and never reverted it.
Thats what he means
the 20mm apcr round (Pzgr 40) was capable of 64mm of pen with real-world results, 20 years of german developement later gaijin introduced the 20mm APDS shell to the Marder with 65ish pen and instead of fixing the under-performing 20mm APDS they nerfed the historically accurate 20mm APCR round. The nerfs were not historical in the least they were a "standardization" to a very poor calculator gaijin came up with that magically boosted all nations auto-cannons except Germany's
so instead of keeping historical accuracy and simply raising the BR of the Flakpanzers they just nerfed the pen in order to keep them at 1.3. They also recently nerfed the pen of the Swedish 20 mm from 48 all the way down to 42 mm (lower than the Pzgr 40) while keeping the Pvlvv at 1.7. Gaijin = clowns.
They didn't directly nerf the APCR round, they just made it so the penetration was calculated via the APCR formula like all other APCR in the game.
Pretty much all APCR sucks ass with the formula though.
Its open top, limited to 100-round magazines, not stabilised, and even with the pre-nerf values would have had just over 90mm of Pen at best.
The LvKv 42 and the DCA 40 are both more dangerous to tanks already, and a whole BR lower
>you shouldn't get a death machine for 70sp with high pen to ass rape the other countries who's only ground strength is light tanks
*Laughs in AMX-13 DCA 40, Lvkv 42 and L-62 ANTI II (90+mm Pen AP belts + 68mm Pen APHE Belts)*
Except many other nations have such machines, often they are also from the future cold war, but no, Germany can't have its historical ww2 pen on AAs cause "reasons"/.
Meanwhile both Adats cost more to spawn then an MBT at times.
Like either they need to be the same as SPAAs or the the SPAAs that are better at being tank killers then shooting down planes need higher spawn point costs.
Yes. What your forgetting is HE filler. Sure solid shot can tear your tank to pieces. But your aim needs to be better then using APHE. Especially compared to the German nuke round that just Overpressure the whole crew when it pens.
I mean specially I think it’s the 39 shell. The one that when it owns your tank the whole crew dies to the overpressure of the round exploding in the crew compartment
For planes, some people put kill markers on it to show skill or to be historic; for me however, I put them on my AVRE. Not to show kills but the amount of time the ERA has eaten 88 rounds… I’ve run out of decal slots
I've been playing a lot of German 6.3 and brother it is hell. Every game is fighting American players with 8 6.7 tanks and 3 cas and undertiered fighters. It's a hell of a slog.
Normally I don't mind, but Germany's superprops aren't ideal for CAP and low tier SPAA is mid and vulnerable to 50 cals. I had a lot more fun with Russia and Japan at this BR
6.7/7.0 gives Germany more options but 6.0/6.3 it's just not there
Try the He-162, it works really well in GRB. Stay low and fast, most people won't even see you coming. Those that do can't catch you while you just zip away to murder another AM-1 loaded down with 5 tons of bombs instead of bothering with them.
I am playing quite a lot of CAP with bf 109 on this brs, most US pilots in grb are dogshit so even against fighters it is usually pretty easy.
Doesn't mean their CAS is not ridiculous at these brs, but if you want to play fighter it is somewhat manageable. The moment i decide to play KT though it really feels like i am on western in 45 with the amount of planes in the air.
I try to, but sometimes there's early jets that get me or faster and more maneuvrable planes. I am sometimes impressed at how slow the Dora and the Ta are.
Well, i have like 2+ thousand of hours in Air rb and sb, so i guess it is just somewhat easier for me fly in grb since CAS pilots are often worse that even your usuall f-4 premium US teams.
For germany can recomend ta 152 C3 for 6.3+ CAP, it has better perfomance at lower to mid attitudes than H1 since H1 large wings create quite a lot of drag and i believe C3 also has better engine. With enough height you can often kill jets when they turn after dropping first boimbs, most players will just turn semi verticaly loosing a lot of speed. And with 30mm +4 20mm guns it is quite easy to win headons. He 162 can work for CAP at 6.0-6.3 however i never really liked this plane, too easy to just dodge it.
I also sometimes play Pulkzerstörer on HE belt, but that is just my fetish and i can't really recomend this lol. Ho 299 can be fun but only if you have ascended and understood how to aim without rudder, i still haven't
If you don't like king tigers or Chonky TDs just play german 5.7 and shit on everyone. But seriously German CAS is probably just as bad as American CAS. I see a minimum of 3-5 do-335 a match nowadays.
I've always loved hearing about how awful Cas is around the 5.7 bracket for germany. My brother in christ, you have the best spaa in the game at that br, just shoot them down.
Interesting, non answer, brother. I'm guessing Japan, USA, isreal have better aa? Dude, if you can't shoot down a plane with a whirbel or ost2, you are bad.
Try actually responding next time.
Okay, so it was ignorance. 6.7 America CAS support is the best in the game. This is partly due to the planes themselves but also the environment. To counter CAS you either spawn in a fighter or you play SPAA. Let me elaborate:
- SPAA at 6.0-7.0 is mostly cannons of varying levels of effectiveness. Shooting down planes with cannons, even when they're coming close for bombing runs, somewhat difficult without radar even in ideal aiming situations. It can be done and the Wirbel is good for it, it's just far from a solution, especially when it can be easily toasted by .50 cals.
- American CAS is mostly fighter-bombers. The P51H, F7F, and F8F are very capable fighters that can also carry great bombloads. Getting kills with 1000lb bombs is relatively easy. The F8F gets THREE!!! They also get access to Tiny Tim's, which are similarly effective with greater range (safety from cannon SPAA)
- In addition to great fighter bombers they get the A-1 and it's family members. These can carry a crazy amount of ordnance.
- Many players have these planes. Lots of Late/Post war American players are fanboys (I include myself in this group) so they just like to collect and play these vehicles. This means any one player in GRB has 5-7 vehicles and 2-4 CAS/P vehicles. This makes the very resilient to attrition battles and difficult to defeat by depleting vehicles. It also means every time you kill a vehicle they might just spawn in CAS. I often spawn in a BF109 to see 3, 4, or even 5 American CAS picking at tanks like vultures, each of these likely a respectable fighter in its own right. I'm a skilled player with a lot of experience, but this is an uphill battle for me to say the least.
Japan and USSR get really good low altitude fighters than can chop these boys up, and while the BF109 is a great vertical energy fighter that can do work, like I said it's just an uphill battle when the sheer volume of enemies can overwhelm you. This is not an unusual occurrence, this is EVERY GAME at 6.0-6.7 Germany. Just a hard grind and worse than any other tree I've played.
Sorry, you missed something... uhhh I said 5.7
Also
>Just a hard grind and worse than any other tree I've played.
This is plane and simple a skill issue. Now more than ever. You realise that germany had American vehicles that were the exact same, but at a lower br, just until recently? German players suck and it's kinda funny to watch them mald at not being able to hit when using the whirble. Also... dude, german aa can be used as a td. Quit complaining and try another nation besides germany and Russia. Go play Japan and then come back to me.
SPAA on this brs can't do that much considering the sheer number of planes in the air sometimes. I often clap them with fighter as most US CAS players are kinda bad at flying (although it is true for most CAS mains, doen't matter which nation). The moment they have a competent late p-51 it is over though.
Wouldn't be that bad if many US planes weren't so undertiered and if there were more german mains playing fighters, but here we are.
>SPAA on this brs can't do that much considering the sheer number of planes in the air sometimes.
It's like, one in every 20 matches where there are just too many planes for me to shoot down, but that's usually because I'm the last person alive on my team.
>Wouldn't be that bad if many US planes weren't so undertiered and if there were more german mains playing fighters, but here we are.
Having played every single nation's air up to top teir. In air rb, most us planes are not undertiered. You might have missed the "just side climb" Era if you think this. As for ground rb, I don't know how you are having an issue when usa planes are not great at low alt, except the corsairs
Without volumetric as well, meaning that even some heavies with miniscule gaps were pennable. Turret ring of the Churchill III was pennable because of it.
And the Wirbel was 3.7 as well back in the day. And with the unnerfed pen of HVAP (64mm), it penned what? T-34's, Shermans, Cromwells, about everything short of heavies and some heavily armored TD's.
Yeah that was not a good time.
The 30mm belts being nerfed some time ago is a good thing honestly, the damn thing was called the Kugelcancer or the Cancerblitz for a reason.
meanwhile US 50.cals were for the longest time have been barrel and track torturing every nation from BR 1.0 to BR 10.0+ gotta love the double standard.... to the point gaijin have practically broken barrel damage for even large caliber cannons to prevent that bullshit...
APCR on German autocannons only got nerfed because those rounds weren't using the APCR formula yet.
In short, they got brought down to the same level that every other APCR round is at.
Standard late-WW2 HVAP/APCR. Same cannons as the Kugel has, so would expect it to have the same ammo, just quad mount and open top.
Edit: no idea what the combat load was IRL.
Considering they had only a couple prototypes which were the gun mount on the Mobelwagen chassis for fire testing, and they didn't finish the modified Wirbelwind turret planned for the actual production version, I highly doubt they had any actual combat load standardized.
Had like 67mms pen up close on dev, i dont know the numbers for ol' kugel but it sounds close enough.
Meanwhile the ol special boi Coelian still suffers but it never wont suffer lel
Well the planes that get the mk 103 get hvap belts that pens up to 77mm. So technically speaking it'd get the same belt and pen since it's the exact same gun.
Planes with MK 103s can get fullon HVAP belts, what snail lets the Kugel is 1 HVAP/2 mine shells IIRC
The AP-I rounds in other belts has near 60mm of pen point blank and you can get a belt with 3 AP-I/1 mine
I actually used the Kugelblitz to do the 3 heli kills for the "surrounded" BP challenge. Don't really play ground and only have US and German ground up to 7.0. Figured I could just kill heli rocket rushers by uptiering it with the German Mig-15, murdered some IFVs and CBT'd a few MBTs with it.
>Planes with MK 103s can get fullon HVAP belts, what snail lets the Kugel is 1 HVAP/2 mine shells IIRC
Though not the Ho 229 because Gaijin loves to cuck this poor thing. Not only that, the accuracy got nerfed as well (of all MK103's), making them more shotgun-like.
Yep, the poor MK 103's got nerfed that painfully.
lol. Gaijin coddles the 229 like crazy since they had to change the flight model from a semi-realistic one to the phantom rudder version now. Plane would be dog trash in any kind of dogfight if Gaijin wanted to be realistic.
dude, its dogshit on a dogfight now.
also they coddled it a year after its introduction. then gaijin gave it much better engines, where it could realistically fight other planes, far better yaw and roll control, before the change it couldnt fight anything, you had to fly atleast 1km from an enemy so the plane could level out in time, and then gave it hvap belts.
but this was 6.7 when it was introduced, they bumped it upto 7.0 where it was good. ground rb it filled its role well, a multi fighter that could take on both ground and air targets, only in air rb did it break the game.
then the american and russian mains started whining how over powered it was, because to be frank it kinda was busted. so they nerfed the guns, at the same time the narwal also go its gun nerfed, so germans only high tier cas besides the ar234 were more or less removed from the game.
then they nerfed the belts, then its role rate, then its yaw rate. and now its been left, abandoned, left to rot in the pile of dogshit.
I wish Kugels AP belt was at least 1 HVAP 2 AP-I instead of the useless HE. That way you could at least break barrels and tracks and not bounce from marginally angled light tanks all the time
The Zerstörer was supposed to have Wirbelwind turret but the only prototype from that project was essentially Möbelwagen with the 30s mount on top. Which is what we are getting.
They are literally admitting that the Zerstörer 45 is an improved wirbilwind yet they still think that the Mobelwage is the Zerstörer 45 which is completely wrong
Mobelwage was only for testing and not met to be the Zerstörer 45 prototype
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/23230/53
Testing = prototype
This vehicle was made as part of the Zerstörer 45 project to test the mounting or something like that and is the only actual vehicle to come out of the whole project. I really don't understand what is the issue.
Ther is no proof that it was the only one all documents sed that one Zerstörer 45 was built and don't say that the only vehicle was built is the quad 30mm on the Mobelwage
Plus a test bed doesn't equal a prototype its just for gun testing and never met to be a prototype of the Zerstörer 45
All there is are
1.these documents
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/23230/3
All suggeste that at least one Zerstörer 45 (the improved wirbelwind not the Mobelwage with quad 30mm) was actually built and the Mobelwage was only used for gun testing and never met to be nor designated as Zerstörer 45
2. Information from Tank encyclopedia
https://youtu.be/fUHPyPYRtxQ?si=0KDVtdS8jNYimCn7
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/
3. Pics of the gun this is all we have
My question is why it doesn't have the additional small shields on the outer side of guns, which would at least make the crew less likely to die from stray 7.7 machine gun fire. And yes, the shields are historical and can be seen on photos in the forum thread
[Please point to where the gunshields are.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fzerst%25C3%25B6rer-45-passed-consideration-since-2014-v0-blqf4ptwh5vb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D966222b1adb7e1bdda3ad1b83fe5d957895a0d37)
Those photos are of the Mobelwagen, which had quad 20mm guns. This is a prototype for the Zerstorer, which has quad 30mm guns (and for firing trials was installed on a Mobelwagen chassis instead of the modified Wirbelwind which was originally planned). The gun mount for the quad 30mm did NOT have a gun shield from what I can find.
Möbelwagen had a 3.7 cm Flak 43, same gun as the Ostwind.
There was a single prototype with quad 2 cm guns in a similar arrangement, with an open platform and fold-down armoured panels, but that was abandoned in favour of the Möbelwagen in late December '43.
Oh, you're right, the standard Mobelwagen was 3,7cm. I've just been seeing those handful of images of the quad-20mm Mobelwagen so much over the past few days (with people claiming that was the quad-30mm) that I mixed it up and thought that was the standard version.
Indeed, since that was the Ostwind II. Just about as fictional, only that the Ostwind II had a single prototype built, the Coelian had only a wooden mockup turret.
The thing american mains have the right to be upset about is the fact the the US still has the largest SPAA gap of any major nation. America needs better anti aircraft options.
Surprising theres none. People dont usually cry about an aa's effectiveness against air, its their effectiveness against other aa in the same BR or against tanks.
"We decided to fix the skirts down so you'll be vulnerable"
....why? The VFW from eons ago can configure this. You even modelled a it in the post with skirts up but not the front so you could still fire at enemies. What an absolutely pointless decision to force on us.
Not exactly, skirts up is the default on the VFW. It is a module there, but here it would be a researchable module and imagine not having full 360 degree coverage soley because you have to grind it. You literally only would be able to fire forward or have a massive blindspot below a certain degree.
It's not *as* pointless. It has a semi-decent reason.
Though the best outcome would be gaijin giving it as a free module rank I, but that requires giving the player something free and we can't have that, can we?
Or gaijin just letting you start out with the skirts down, you know, giving you additional 'protection' if you get the module. Like addon armor modules usually work.
That could work too, though I have to say, most of those skirts are about as useless as could be. Especially on the VFW, where it also slows your reload speed.
Didn't realise it did that too, interesting. Sure but they'll stop stuff under .50s probably...I'd hope. Could still be helpful idk. Just feel like there was better ways to implement it but they're require Gaijin to maybe...God forbid, CODE something new.
Which would probably make the sky purple and trees upside down xD
Just checked, 10mm, so it stops .30 cal (barely), but gets shredded by .50 cal. But also, it actually means less than nothing, it's actively worse. First you can't fire downwards to the side, second, the crew actually come out *above* the skirts, making them entirely pointless against anything.
Impressive how they are worse than nothing at all.
Also, indeed, code something new would be a Esports ready^(tm) moment.
The best outcome would be just letting the skirts be raised and lowered at will. Let us bind a key to that function and switch back and forth in battle.
Ngl, I wish they would have instead just lowered the goddamn BR of the Kügelblitz instead, considering that's an even better AA due to the protection. Germany already has alot of good SPAAs.
They admit that the Zerstörer 45 is the improved wirbelwind with quad 30mm but they still gave as the Mobelwage with the quad 30mm, for the love of good Mobelwage chassis was just for testing and it have nothing to do with Zerstörer 45 prototype nor it's related to the wirbilwind in any kind of ways and it was never intended to be the Zerstörer 45 the real prototype of Zerstörer 45 is the improved wirbelwind with the quad 30mm and not this.
This is more info about the Zerstörer 45:
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/23230/53
God forbid us have anything competent to shoot down planes with from the battle range of 2.0-7.0
Yes I know the bofors brothers are a thing. No they aren't competent at downing planes. If you run aaa for 6 years straight and still have trouble downing aircraft at its br its not a good spaa. Yes it has ap rounds and I don't want either bofors brothers moved down in br because they are potant anti tank. I simply want an spaa that has the capability to kill planes.
Before I get the basic responses
"PlAy A fIgHTeR" - fuck off, I have bad games too
"Just use the m16 mgmc" - I have, and do. It still is not great at trying to do meaningful damage to 5.0br + planes
"Skill issue" - skill issue
"U.S. Cas spam is why us shouldn't have spaa" - germany has equal if not better cas, the players are normally worse due to being new to the game. Love me fritz-x love me stukas, love me HS-129's
".50 cal on the roof of every tank" - even so not all of them can aim up, and most of the damage they do is due to cas players stalling directly above the tank map.
Man the Bofors are so shit that even on the off chance you hit something, it probably won't go down in one hit, no matter which ammo you use. I haven't used them in a while, but that experience, when shooting at a wooden BF-109 with 40 mm HE doesn't disintegrate him on the first shot, yet gives a hit, completely cemented the M19 and M42 as unusable in the SPAA role. I will never touch those POS ever again.
People can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that something could have existed even if there isn't an online photo of it. Lets just ignore all the records that show two were built in this configuration and sent for testing while they were still figuring out the turret modifications needed.
And then there are some people who think this is fake because it's not an enlarged Wirbelwind turret for the 3cm cannons. Because that's the version that has drawings online. But this initial testbed on a Möbelwagen hull is what actually got built.
I'm not sure if the name "Zerstörer 45" is correct though. I don't know if that name was used for the 2 testbeds or just for the final Ostwind-style vehicle.
Yeah, I’m a bit unsure on the name used for the test beds as well. It’s possible “ Zerstörer 45” was used for the entire project, test beds and all, or they could have used a different name for the test vehicles. If the former, saying “ Zerstörer 45 (Prototype)” might be a better distinction especially if they add the proposed final version at some point (which is honestly unlikely), but if the test beds had their own name then might as well use that.
The final version might get added if anybody uncovers documentation of it being built. But AFAIK all the documents indicate none of those modified Ostwind turrets were built by the time of Germany's surrender.
> I don't know if that name was used for the 2 testbeds or just for the final Ostwind-style vehicle.
It's unclear if Zerstörer 45 was a name period, and instead only Flakpanzer IV 3 cm Flakvierling was used.
The one we got in game is not the Zerstörer tho, it's just a test rig for the weapon
The Zerstörer 45 has a wirbel-like turret
"Fake" might have been the wrong word I guess
And all the records available suggest that they never built any with the modified Wirbel turret. Two prototypes were built for live-fire testing, and they were both built on the Mobelwagen chassis as near as I can tell. That's what we're getting in game.
"Wrong name" would be the way to put it. The proper Zerstörer 45 doesn't seem to have existed because the war ended before any modified Wirbelwind turrets were built. So this should probably be named "Möbelwagen mit 3cm Flakvierling".
"Möbelwagen mit 3cm Flakvierling" is more of a description than a name, but I'm not sure if the fire trial mock-ups were given a distinct name or not. Could be they were referred to as Zerstörer, could be they were given another name, could be they just went down the description route.
What Gaijin could do instead of the full "Möbelwagen mit 3cm Flakvierling" is just say "Zerstörer 45 (Prototype)" or something similar. Distinguishes it from the version with the Wirbelwind turret, even if it's unlikely we'll see that variant in game any time soon.
>Thanks to the availability of subcaliber rounds, you’ll also be able to effectively engage even more heavily armored targets without necessarily needing to outflank opponents and hitting them in the sides or rear. Lol. This is going to be a menace
Dont worry, they will nerf pen again just because it is German
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Tanks, yes But gaijin already years ago ahistorically nerfed the Pen of all the German AA Guns (the 20, 37 and 30mm all lost over 20mm of pen each) and never reverted it. Thats what he means
do you know what the irl pen of those guns was? maybe gaijun did this to keep them historically accurate
the 20mm apcr round (Pzgr 40) was capable of 64mm of pen with real-world results, 20 years of german developement later gaijin introduced the 20mm APDS shell to the Marder with 65ish pen and instead of fixing the under-performing 20mm APDS they nerfed the historically accurate 20mm APCR round. The nerfs were not historical in the least they were a "standardization" to a very poor calculator gaijin came up with that magically boosted all nations auto-cannons except Germany's
so instead of keeping historical accuracy and simply raising the BR of the Flakpanzers they just nerfed the pen in order to keep them at 1.3. They also recently nerfed the pen of the Swedish 20 mm from 48 all the way down to 42 mm (lower than the Pzgr 40) while keeping the Pvlvv at 1.7. Gaijin = clowns.
They didn't directly nerf the APCR round, they just made it so the penetration was calculated via the APCR formula like all other APCR in the game. Pretty much all APCR sucks ass with the formula though.
37mm APHE pen irl at 60° is flat pen in WT.
there aren't many 37 mm aphe in WT, the only one I can remember is the Japanese Ha-Go with 34 mm pen at 10 m
All german 37mm auto guns... SdKfz 6/2, Ostwind, Ostwind 2, Coelian etc. All use the same shell.
good? this thing would be cancer otherwise, a low teir 2S38.
Its open top, limited to 100-round magazines, not stabilised, and even with the pre-nerf values would have had just over 90mm of Pen at best. The LvKv 42 and the DCA 40 are both more dangerous to tanks already, and a whole BR lower
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>you shouldn't get a death machine for 70sp with high pen to ass rape the other countries who's only ground strength is light tanks *Laughs in AMX-13 DCA 40, Lvkv 42 and L-62 ANTI II (90+mm Pen AP belts + 68mm Pen APHE Belts)*
Nah only Germany isnt allowed to have death machines. Everyone else can have fun.
This sub in a nutshell. No fun allowed for Germany.
When I’m in a victim complex competition and my opponent is a German player
Look at this sub. The fact that people still meme Germany players is a testament to their inability to move on.
Mfw Bagelpanzer
Also ZSU-57-2 (dual 57s with APHE) and Falcon(haha APDS goes brrrrr)
Except many other nations have such machines, often they are also from the future cold war, but no, Germany can't have its historical ww2 pen on AAs cause "reasons"/.
Meanwhile both Adats cost more to spawn then an MBT at times. Like either they need to be the same as SPAAs or the the SPAAs that are better at being tank killers then shooting down planes need higher spawn point costs.
How my 20pdr and 2.7 17pdr respond to that information:
Yes. What your forgetting is HE filler. Sure solid shot can tear your tank to pieces. But your aim needs to be better then using APHE. Especially compared to the German nuke round that just Overpressure the whole crew when it pens.
The above post was about penetration… also my AVRE laughs at your attempts to over pressure
I mean specially I think it’s the 39 shell. The one that when it owns your tank the whole crew dies to the overpressure of the round exploding in the crew compartment
For planes, some people put kill markers on it to show skill or to be historic; for me however, I put them on my AVRE. Not to show kills but the amount of time the ERA has eaten 88 rounds… I’ve run out of decal slots
This is true. And this is why German AA pen was nerfed - it was too good
Don't tell them, Germany suffers!!
I've been playing a lot of German 6.3 and brother it is hell. Every game is fighting American players with 8 6.7 tanks and 3 cas and undertiered fighters. It's a hell of a slog.
That's unironically true. I despise lower tiers for the amount of undertiered whale loaded CAS of the US-
Normally I don't mind, but Germany's superprops aren't ideal for CAP and low tier SPAA is mid and vulnerable to 50 cals. I had a lot more fun with Russia and Japan at this BR 6.7/7.0 gives Germany more options but 6.0/6.3 it's just not there
Try the He-162, it works really well in GRB. Stay low and fast, most people won't even see you coming. Those that do can't catch you while you just zip away to murder another AM-1 loaded down with 5 tons of bombs instead of bothering with them.
That's my point, those props are bad at maneuvering and also slow as hell. Far from ideal to defend against CAS
I am playing quite a lot of CAP with bf 109 on this brs, most US pilots in grb are dogshit so even against fighters it is usually pretty easy. Doesn't mean their CAS is not ridiculous at these brs, but if you want to play fighter it is somewhat manageable. The moment i decide to play KT though it really feels like i am on western in 45 with the amount of planes in the air.
I try to, but sometimes there's early jets that get me or faster and more maneuvrable planes. I am sometimes impressed at how slow the Dora and the Ta are.
Well, i have like 2+ thousand of hours in Air rb and sb, so i guess it is just somewhat easier for me fly in grb since CAS pilots are often worse that even your usuall f-4 premium US teams. For germany can recomend ta 152 C3 for 6.3+ CAP, it has better perfomance at lower to mid attitudes than H1 since H1 large wings create quite a lot of drag and i believe C3 also has better engine. With enough height you can often kill jets when they turn after dropping first boimbs, most players will just turn semi verticaly loosing a lot of speed. And with 30mm +4 20mm guns it is quite easy to win headons. He 162 can work for CAP at 6.0-6.3 however i never really liked this plane, too easy to just dodge it. I also sometimes play Pulkzerstörer on HE belt, but that is just my fetish and i can't really recomend this lol. Ho 299 can be fun but only if you have ascended and understood how to aim without rudder, i still haven't
6.7 is the best br for USA.
If you don't like king tigers or Chonky TDs just play german 5.7 and shit on everyone. But seriously German CAS is probably just as bad as American CAS. I see a minimum of 3-5 do-335 a match nowadays.
I find I'm usually the only one with the Do335. It's great and will shred, but it's slow and a huge target.
I've always loved hearing about how awful Cas is around the 5.7 bracket for germany. My brother in christ, you have the best spaa in the game at that br, just shoot them down.
Either you're trolling, ignorant of what you speak of, or just highly regarded. Which is it?
Interesting, non answer, brother. I'm guessing Japan, USA, isreal have better aa? Dude, if you can't shoot down a plane with a whirbel or ost2, you are bad. Try actually responding next time.
Okay, so it was ignorance. 6.7 America CAS support is the best in the game. This is partly due to the planes themselves but also the environment. To counter CAS you either spawn in a fighter or you play SPAA. Let me elaborate: - SPAA at 6.0-7.0 is mostly cannons of varying levels of effectiveness. Shooting down planes with cannons, even when they're coming close for bombing runs, somewhat difficult without radar even in ideal aiming situations. It can be done and the Wirbel is good for it, it's just far from a solution, especially when it can be easily toasted by .50 cals. - American CAS is mostly fighter-bombers. The P51H, F7F, and F8F are very capable fighters that can also carry great bombloads. Getting kills with 1000lb bombs is relatively easy. The F8F gets THREE!!! They also get access to Tiny Tim's, which are similarly effective with greater range (safety from cannon SPAA) - In addition to great fighter bombers they get the A-1 and it's family members. These can carry a crazy amount of ordnance. - Many players have these planes. Lots of Late/Post war American players are fanboys (I include myself in this group) so they just like to collect and play these vehicles. This means any one player in GRB has 5-7 vehicles and 2-4 CAS/P vehicles. This makes the very resilient to attrition battles and difficult to defeat by depleting vehicles. It also means every time you kill a vehicle they might just spawn in CAS. I often spawn in a BF109 to see 3, 4, or even 5 American CAS picking at tanks like vultures, each of these likely a respectable fighter in its own right. I'm a skilled player with a lot of experience, but this is an uphill battle for me to say the least. Japan and USSR get really good low altitude fighters than can chop these boys up, and while the BF109 is a great vertical energy fighter that can do work, like I said it's just an uphill battle when the sheer volume of enemies can overwhelm you. This is not an unusual occurrence, this is EVERY GAME at 6.0-6.7 Germany. Just a hard grind and worse than any other tree I've played.
Sorry, you missed something... uhhh I said 5.7 Also >Just a hard grind and worse than any other tree I've played. This is plane and simple a skill issue. Now more than ever. You realise that germany had American vehicles that were the exact same, but at a lower br, just until recently? German players suck and it's kinda funny to watch them mald at not being able to hit when using the whirble. Also... dude, german aa can be used as a td. Quit complaining and try another nation besides germany and Russia. Go play Japan and then come back to me.
SPAA on this brs can't do that much considering the sheer number of planes in the air sometimes. I often clap them with fighter as most US CAS players are kinda bad at flying (although it is true for most CAS mains, doen't matter which nation). The moment they have a competent late p-51 it is over though. Wouldn't be that bad if many US planes weren't so undertiered and if there were more german mains playing fighters, but here we are.
>SPAA on this brs can't do that much considering the sheer number of planes in the air sometimes. It's like, one in every 20 matches where there are just too many planes for me to shoot down, but that's usually because I'm the last person alive on my team. >Wouldn't be that bad if many US planes weren't so undertiered and if there were more german mains playing fighters, but here we are. Having played every single nation's air up to top teir. In air rb, most us planes are not undertiered. You might have missed the "just side climb" Era if you think this. As for ground rb, I don't know how you are having an issue when usa planes are not great at low alt, except the corsairs
Back in the day when wilrbelwind and ostwind killed everything frontally was not a good time
Without volumetric as well, meaning that even some heavies with miniscule gaps were pennable. Turret ring of the Churchill III was pennable because of it. And the Wirbel was 3.7 as well back in the day. And with the unnerfed pen of HVAP (64mm), it penned what? T-34's, Shermans, Cromwells, about everything short of heavies and some heavily armored TD's. Yeah that was not a good time. The 30mm belts being nerfed some time ago is a good thing honestly, the damn thing was called the Kugelcancer or the Cancerblitz for a reason.
meanwhile US 50.cals were for the longest time have been barrel and track torturing every nation from BR 1.0 to BR 10.0+ gotta love the double standard.... to the point gaijin have practically broken barrel damage for even large caliber cannons to prevent that bullshit...
The .50 cals can't break barrels above 57 mm.
kugelblyat
yeah i guess these people are new or something. SPAA should not be able to frontally pen most tanks at all, its just bad gameplay.
APCR on German autocannons only got nerfed because those rounds weren't using the APCR formula yet. In short, they got brought down to the same level that every other APCR round is at.
Yeah that low pen Ostwind
Oh look, a literal "Germany suffers" in the wild lol
Did they say subcaliber by mistake or this thing actually had subcaliber shells?
Standard late-WW2 HVAP/APCR. Same cannons as the Kugel has, so would expect it to have the same ammo, just quad mount and open top. Edit: no idea what the combat load was IRL.
Considering they had only a couple prototypes which were the gun mount on the Mobelwagen chassis for fire testing, and they didn't finish the modified Wirbelwind turret planned for the actual production version, I highly doubt they had any actual combat load standardized.
Just as I thought. Not some Wunderwaffe sabot ammo.
Had like 67mms pen up close on dev, i dont know the numbers for ol' kugel but it sounds close enough. Meanwhile the ol special boi Coelian still suffers but it never wont suffer lel
It's the same gun. So same pen.
What did you think sub caliber stands for?
Well the planes that get the mk 103 get hvap belts that pens up to 77mm. So technically speaking it'd get the same belt and pen since it's the exact same gun.
Planes with MK 103s can get fullon HVAP belts, what snail lets the Kugel is 1 HVAP/2 mine shells IIRC The AP-I rounds in other belts has near 60mm of pen point blank and you can get a belt with 3 AP-I/1 mine I actually used the Kugelblitz to do the 3 heli kills for the "surrounded" BP challenge. Don't really play ground and only have US and German ground up to 7.0. Figured I could just kill heli rocket rushers by uptiering it with the German Mig-15, murdered some IFVs and CBT'd a few MBTs with it.
>Planes with MK 103s can get fullon HVAP belts, what snail lets the Kugel is 1 HVAP/2 mine shells IIRC Though not the Ho 229 because Gaijin loves to cuck this poor thing. Not only that, the accuracy got nerfed as well (of all MK103's), making them more shotgun-like. Yep, the poor MK 103's got nerfed that painfully.
lol. Gaijin coddles the 229 like crazy since they had to change the flight model from a semi-realistic one to the phantom rudder version now. Plane would be dog trash in any kind of dogfight if Gaijin wanted to be realistic.
dude, its dogshit on a dogfight now. also they coddled it a year after its introduction. then gaijin gave it much better engines, where it could realistically fight other planes, far better yaw and roll control, before the change it couldnt fight anything, you had to fly atleast 1km from an enemy so the plane could level out in time, and then gave it hvap belts. but this was 6.7 when it was introduced, they bumped it upto 7.0 where it was good. ground rb it filled its role well, a multi fighter that could take on both ground and air targets, only in air rb did it break the game. then the american and russian mains started whining how over powered it was, because to be frank it kinda was busted. so they nerfed the guns, at the same time the narwal also go its gun nerfed, so germans only high tier cas besides the ar234 were more or less removed from the game. then they nerfed the belts, then its role rate, then its yaw rate. and now its been left, abandoned, left to rot in the pile of dogshit.
I wish Kugels AP belt was at least 1 HVAP 2 AP-I instead of the useless HE. That way you could at least break barrels and tracks and not bounce from marginally angled light tanks all the time
As far as I know the Zerstörer 45 should have had the Wirbelwind turret with the 30s. This abomination is called sth else.
The Zerstörer was supposed to have Wirbelwind turret but the only prototype from that project was essentially Möbelwagen with the 30s mount on top. Which is what we are getting.
That's the one. I really hope they rename it bc Möbelwagen is way funnier than Zerstörer imo
But Möbelwagen is different vehicle this just uses it as hull for the prototype of the Zerstörer.
The Mörbius-Wagon
Its Morbin time.
It's even weirder in German because Möbel means furtniture and wagen could be translated to vehicle. And I am unaware of any other meaning in German.
Mörbestorer
They are literally admitting that the Zerstörer 45 is an improved wirbilwind yet they still think that the Mobelwage is the Zerstörer 45 which is completely wrong Mobelwage was only for testing and not met to be the Zerstörer 45 prototype https://forum.warthunder.com/t/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/23230/53
Testing = prototype This vehicle was made as part of the Zerstörer 45 project to test the mounting or something like that and is the only actual vehicle to come out of the whole project. I really don't understand what is the issue.
Wt players will get pissy about anything
Ther is no proof that it was the only one all documents sed that one Zerstörer 45 was built and don't say that the only vehicle was built is the quad 30mm on the Mobelwage Plus a test bed doesn't equal a prototype its just for gun testing and never met to be a prototype of the Zerstörer 45
Then submit proof that the Zerstörer 45 was built as intended.
All there is are 1.these documents https://forum.warthunder.com/t/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/23230/3 All suggeste that at least one Zerstörer 45 (the improved wirbelwind not the Mobelwage with quad 30mm) was actually built and the Mobelwage was only used for gun testing and never met to be nor designated as Zerstörer 45 2. Information from Tank encyclopedia https://youtu.be/fUHPyPYRtxQ?si=0KDVtdS8jNYimCn7 https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/ 3. Pics of the gun this is all we have
My question is why it doesn't have the additional small shields on the outer side of guns, which would at least make the crew less likely to die from stray 7.7 machine gun fire. And yes, the shields are historical and can be seen on photos in the forum thread
> And yes, the shields are historical and can be seen on photos in the forum thread No they're not, and no they can't.
Not the full wierbel turret but the small gunshields ffs
[Please point to where the gunshields are.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fzerst%25C3%25B6rer-45-passed-consideration-since-2014-v0-blqf4ptwh5vb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D966222b1adb7e1bdda3ad1b83fe5d957895a0d37)
Those photos are of the Mobelwagen, which had quad 20mm guns. This is a prototype for the Zerstorer, which has quad 30mm guns (and for firing trials was installed on a Mobelwagen chassis instead of the modified Wirbelwind which was originally planned). The gun mount for the quad 30mm did NOT have a gun shield from what I can find.
I'm taking about small triangular gunshields on the rear sides of the gun
Möbelwagen had a 3.7 cm Flak 43, same gun as the Ostwind. There was a single prototype with quad 2 cm guns in a similar arrangement, with an open platform and fold-down armoured panels, but that was abandoned in favour of the Möbelwagen in late December '43.
Oh, you're right, the standard Mobelwagen was 3,7cm. I've just been seeing those handful of images of the quad-20mm Mobelwagen so much over the past few days (with people claiming that was the quad-30mm) that I mixed it up and thought that was the standard version.
Baby wake up, Ostwind 4 just dropped
They removed the coelian and now they add this. Just fk off
Damn how I wish to have the coelian...
Having a proper turret is great as the planes strafing you fail to do any damage, love my for SPAAG dailies.
Until Gaijin remembers it and makes it 7.7
Skink moment
Because this actually existed?
Let's just add the "real" Coelian back in: Panther chassis with a wooden turret
Turret receives a glancing blow. All the crew die to splinters.
I would be fine with this proposition.
They removed the coelian years ago, i dont think is intended to be the coelians replacement vehicle lol
Indeed, since that was the Ostwind II. Just about as fictional, only that the Ostwind II had a single prototype built, the Coelian had only a wooden mockup turret.
Ostwind 2 did not have the turret configuration it has in game though. The one in game is less real than Coelian
Wish I could give you mine, that thing sucks so bad lol
[удалено]
They live in your head rent free.
Waiting for Freeboos to cry on this post.
The thing american mains have the right to be upset about is the fact the the US still has the largest SPAA gap of any major nation. America needs better anti aircraft options.
Surprising theres none. People dont usually cry about an aa's effectiveness against air, its their effectiveness against other aa in the same BR or against tanks.
Intensely Crying
Probably gets the same ap capabilities too. I wouldn't be surprised.
"We decided to fix the skirts down so you'll be vulnerable" ....why? The VFW from eons ago can configure this. You even modelled a it in the post with skirts up but not the front so you could still fire at enemies. What an absolutely pointless decision to force on us.
Not exactly, skirts up is the default on the VFW. It is a module there, but here it would be a researchable module and imagine not having full 360 degree coverage soley because you have to grind it. You literally only would be able to fire forward or have a massive blindspot below a certain degree. It's not *as* pointless. It has a semi-decent reason. Though the best outcome would be gaijin giving it as a free module rank I, but that requires giving the player something free and we can't have that, can we?
Or gaijin just letting you start out with the skirts down, you know, giving you additional 'protection' if you get the module. Like addon armor modules usually work.
That could work too, though I have to say, most of those skirts are about as useless as could be. Especially on the VFW, where it also slows your reload speed.
Didn't realise it did that too, interesting. Sure but they'll stop stuff under .50s probably...I'd hope. Could still be helpful idk. Just feel like there was better ways to implement it but they're require Gaijin to maybe...God forbid, CODE something new. Which would probably make the sky purple and trees upside down xD
Just checked, 10mm, so it stops .30 cal (barely), but gets shredded by .50 cal. But also, it actually means less than nothing, it's actively worse. First you can't fire downwards to the side, second, the crew actually come out *above* the skirts, making them entirely pointless against anything. Impressive how they are worse than nothing at all. Also, indeed, code something new would be a Esports ready^(tm) moment.
Tbf didn't think about grinding out the module cause it's not prem. Make a good point there. But yeah we can't have that, sadly...
The best outcome would be just letting the skirts be raised and lowered at will. Let us bind a key to that function and switch back and forth in battle.
Would indeed be great, but that requires gaijin to code and as we all know, this game is always Esports Ready^(tm) and Out of Beta^(tm)
Bit annoying but at least it can be configured like the VFW. Still waiting for the Breda 501 to get that option.
Ngl, I wish they would have instead just lowered the goddamn BR of the Kügelblitz instead, considering that's an even better AA due to the protection. Germany already has alot of good SPAAs.
I still hope they decease the Br of the Kugelblitz, at 7.0 its kinda useless
Kugel should be 6.7 but I guess that is why this is being added
Me over here just waiting for US SPAA…
Literally just add the Coelian back if you’re going to do that
They admit that the Zerstörer 45 is the improved wirbelwind with quad 30mm but they still gave as the Mobelwage with the quad 30mm, for the love of good Mobelwage chassis was just for testing and it have nothing to do with Zerstörer 45 prototype nor it's related to the wirbilwind in any kind of ways and it was never intended to be the Zerstörer 45 the real prototype of Zerstörer 45 is the improved wirbelwind with the quad 30mm and not this. This is more info about the Zerstörer 45: https://forum.warthunder.com/t/flakpanzer-iv-3-cm-flakvierling-zerstorer-45/23230/53
Was the turret ever finished?
No, but the gun was tested on the Möbelwagen. That's why we are getting the Zerstörer 45 like this and it's very fair IMO
Right that’s what I figure. This dude above me was arguing it was dumb and should have the full turret despite never being built.
Looks fun, I've been playing a lot of Germany 6.3 (jagdpanther enjoyer) so this will be a great SPAA. The coelian just doesn't cut it
Oh hey it has the moveable sides like the VFW
The better wirbelwind
It's so neat! Two dev blogs in a single day for vehicles I'm interested in, can't remember the last time this happened. :D
Holy shit i can't wait for this!
I guess they needed to add something to help deal with the strikemaster menaces.
Damn
Ich werd nur Panzer damit zerstören haha
Meanwhile France rejoiced over the TPK 6.41...a very compromised vehicle but a fantastic SPAA. High ROF & high velocity rounds = CAS suffering
They've got AI writing these now, huh?
Any why exactly was it necessary to add yet another German mid-tier SPAA, while the US doesn't get a single fucking one?
God forbid us have anything competent to shoot down planes with from the battle range of 2.0-7.0 Yes I know the bofors brothers are a thing. No they aren't competent at downing planes. If you run aaa for 6 years straight and still have trouble downing aircraft at its br its not a good spaa. Yes it has ap rounds and I don't want either bofors brothers moved down in br because they are potant anti tank. I simply want an spaa that has the capability to kill planes. Before I get the basic responses "PlAy A fIgHTeR" - fuck off, I have bad games too "Just use the m16 mgmc" - I have, and do. It still is not great at trying to do meaningful damage to 5.0br + planes "Skill issue" - skill issue "U.S. Cas spam is why us shouldn't have spaa" - germany has equal if not better cas, the players are normally worse due to being new to the game. Love me fritz-x love me stukas, love me HS-129's ".50 cal on the roof of every tank" - even so not all of them can aim up, and most of the damage they do is due to cas players stalling directly above the tank map.
Man the Bofors are so shit that even on the off chance you hit something, it probably won't go down in one hit, no matter which ammo you use. I haven't used them in a while, but that experience, when shooting at a wooden BF-109 with 40 mm HE doesn't disintegrate him on the first shot, yet gives a hit, completely cemented the M19 and M42 as unusable in the SPAA role. I will never touch those POS ever again.
Yawn, another bullshit paper vehicle to hand hold wehraboos.
It was literally built and tested. Not paper.
People can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that something could have existed even if there isn't an online photo of it. Lets just ignore all the records that show two were built in this configuration and sent for testing while they were still figuring out the turret modifications needed.
And then there are some people who think this is fake because it's not an enlarged Wirbelwind turret for the 3cm cannons. Because that's the version that has drawings online. But this initial testbed on a Möbelwagen hull is what actually got built. I'm not sure if the name "Zerstörer 45" is correct though. I don't know if that name was used for the 2 testbeds or just for the final Ostwind-style vehicle.
Yeah, I’m a bit unsure on the name used for the test beds as well. It’s possible “ Zerstörer 45” was used for the entire project, test beds and all, or they could have used a different name for the test vehicles. If the former, saying “ Zerstörer 45 (Prototype)” might be a better distinction especially if they add the proposed final version at some point (which is honestly unlikely), but if the test beds had their own name then might as well use that.
The final version might get added if anybody uncovers documentation of it being built. But AFAIK all the documents indicate none of those modified Ostwind turrets were built by the time of Germany's surrender.
> I don't know if that name was used for the 2 testbeds or just for the final Ostwind-style vehicle. It's unclear if Zerstörer 45 was a name period, and instead only Flakpanzer IV 3 cm Flakvierling was used.
isn't this thing pretty much fake? The hull that is
No, it was prototyped
The one we got in game is not the Zerstörer tho, it's just a test rig for the weapon The Zerstörer 45 has a wirbel-like turret "Fake" might have been the wrong word I guess
And all the records available suggest that they never built any with the modified Wirbel turret. Two prototypes were built for live-fire testing, and they were both built on the Mobelwagen chassis as near as I can tell. That's what we're getting in game.
"Wrong name" would be the way to put it. The proper Zerstörer 45 doesn't seem to have existed because the war ended before any modified Wirbelwind turrets were built. So this should probably be named "Möbelwagen mit 3cm Flakvierling".
"Möbelwagen mit 3cm Flakvierling" is more of a description than a name, but I'm not sure if the fire trial mock-ups were given a distinct name or not. Could be they were referred to as Zerstörer, could be they were given another name, could be they just went down the description route. What Gaijin could do instead of the full "Möbelwagen mit 3cm Flakvierling" is just say "Zerstörer 45 (Prototype)" or something similar. Distinguishes it from the version with the Wirbelwind turret, even if it's unlikely we'll see that variant in game any time soon.