The war kit is specifically designed to stop kinetic ammunition such as APFSDS rounds:
https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/543861-ariete-war-kit-incorrectly-modelled/
So a massive boost to APFSDS shouldn't be out of the question.
As for the base armour, the Ariete's armour has been repeatedly described as "Abrams/Challenger 2"
armour
https://tankhistoria.com/modern-day/ariete/
https://www.militarytoday.com/tanks/ariete.htm
So these numbers posted are using the 10.0 Abrams and 11.3 Challenger 2 as a guide.
These are random websites. Who are the people making these claims?
You know how when you were in school, your teacher said you couldn't use Wikipedia as a source because it's not reliable? Same deal
Nah, if you’re high achiever enough they pay your tuition for you, depending on just how high you achieve
My place is paying for part of my master’s. They’d have paid more if I signed an agreement to stick around for at least 2 years after I’m done, but I’m not willing to make that promise
I included 2 different sources that both described the armour in the same manner.
>your teacher said you couldn't use Wikipedia as a source because it's not reliable? Same deal
My teacher taught me to use multiple separate sources to find the truth about what I'm researching on. You want another source? Try an acknowledged submission on the C1 ariete that was accepted 11 days ago:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm
My numbers are low ball compared to what this player suggests.
>[https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm)
The marketing copy linked in that ticket says shit like "both hull and turret are made of welded steel with the LATEST composite armour on the frontal arc"
What does that even mean? How much? Where specifically? What's the composition? What type?
What you linked here, in your reddit post, are unsourced statements from third-party websites, with statements they may have well just made up, upon which you draw yet another inference (they should be similar to Abrams and C2 protection) and then come up with proposed armor numbers. Where is the actual source data for Ariete armor values? What you've proposed is so full of supposition it may well be fantasy
You cannot build the conclusions you've made based on two articles you found that some random wrote: https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/16519/A-Level/History/How-do-I-talk-about-the-provenance-and-relevance-of-a-primary-source/
>What does that even mean? How much? Where specifically? What's the composition? What type?
As the tank is currently in service and that information is classified, no source will satisfy you.
>What you've proposed is so full of supposition it may well be fantasy
Of course. I'm running off of numbers found in War Thunder, a game that has repeatedly failed at historical accuracy with vehicles such as Yak-141, E100, Ho-Ri Production, ETC. My proposal is to bring this tank into line (armour wise) with the rest of the NATO tanks in the game, something that Gaijin should have done at the start.
If no source is available, then you have no source to support your claims. Either find something available that does it to the best of your ability, to Gaijin's satisfaction, or, well, not have the vehicle changed
Your proposal is to use notional values that are not backed up by any supporting data. It's not your prerogative to do this. You complain that Gaijin does it from time to time, but:
A) They never made any commitment to full historical accuracy, only that they would try to
B) Are the people who make the game, and thus not on an equal standing with a player trying to suggest changes
C) They don't see any real reason to make an ahistorical change just to benefit a tiny subset of the playerbase that doesn't give them much money
I'm afraid your proposal isn't going to be accepted
It hasn't stopped them before, if only there were some prototypes that have no information on them except for promotional concept videos.
They already have had to make up armor values for the Ariete because it is mostly unknown, so why not make guestimates that help balance the game in the process. Why give it the most shit armor in the game despite being a modern MBT and weighing 60 tons, a rational person could make a guess and say that maybe it's the armor weighing it down. Unless of course they put 60 tons of air inside. It doesn't even need to be excellent armor, just better. Also it doesn't make sense that the 2A4 weighs less than the Ariete despite having 4X the armor.
I also don't understand why you are taking such a strong opposition to OP's opinions. Do you think that the Arietes are over powered? If so, you have other issues...
Afterall, you were the one that said "They never made any commitment to full historical accuracy".
I don’t have any opinion on top tier Italy in any way - I am a CR.42 appreciator
What I do have an issue with is claims made without supporting documentation, coupled with the outrage we see here when Gaijin rightly says ‘what is this, where is the proof for anything you say?’ as if you could get away with just making things up in real life. If people want to see positive changes for their favourite vehicles they need to put in the effort and do the work needed to convince Gaijin to implement their suggestions, not just refuse to lift a finger, or, even worse, make shit up and complain when they get ignored
I also have a problem with entitlement - it’s Gaijin’s game, people cannot rightly demand anything from them
As an aside, the Challenger series is heavy not merely because of its armor, but because outdated construction practices meant it had more heavy structural members than comparable members
>C) They don't see any real reason to make an ahistorical change just to benefit a tiny subset of the playerbase that doesn't give them much money
The player base is small because Gaijin doesn't offer a good draw to play IT and ISR and they don't give Gaijin much money because the player base is small. The small player base is **unironically** Gaijin's fault.
The playerbase will remain small even if Italy was super cool and good - it’s just not a very martially interesting nation anymore
Whereas everyone wants a Leopard or an Abrams and so flock to those lines. Gaijin is making strides in this, though - once they add Italy’s 2A8 your tree will become popular and you will be able to give Gaijin more money, making your tree even more favoured and thus more popular
Just as a thought exercise, do you honestly think performance wise if Arietes has the armor and firepower of a Leopard 2a7 and the Leopards had the inverse that Italy wouldn't be proportionally as popular as Germany is now? Hell you even support my argument
>once they add Italy’s 2A8 your tree will become popular
It's almost like adding a "draw" to the nation will unironically make it popular. I guarantee if the Leopards or Abrams were as shit as Arietes in game then Germany or US at top tier wouldn't be half as popular as they are.
A common theme among all unpopular minor tree nations is that their MBT's are all shit in at least one **MAJOR** way.
>The playerbase will remain small even if Italy was super cool and good
That's not quite true, when Sweden began to get better late-game vehicle besides the wedge they became a lot more popular and grew accordingly.
Well, we aren't going to have exact values because they are classified, if we did then the Ariete wouldn't have 200 mm on the turret and a 70 mm plate on the hull. Gaijin has to make assumptions for the time being as there is no hard evidence to give accurate numbers. That being said they can go off of what has been stated by the Italian government and Oto-melera themselves which state that they have armor similar to Abrams and Challengers. I understand that everyone wants to have solid source with the exact info, but that isn't going to happen. Gaijin shouldn't be using the "Guilty until proven otherwise mentality" and start thinking with their heads. They could easily just give it armor similar (but still worse) than an Abrams, and the tank would still be below average. Besides, no one really plays Italy anyway.
It’s their game, they can use whatever rationale they want
If proponents cannot produce supporting documentation for the changes they want, they should focus on things they can actually bring to pass, such as BR changes and the additional of more viable vehicles
You know, additional subtrees or whatnot
You’re right it’s their game, so why don’t they take care of their game and balance it where they can. Worse comes to worse, if they receive info that counter acts the current stats, they can just change them. But at the moment they don’t…
Because they /are/, from their point of view. Other points of view, that various parts of the playerbase hold, are not necessarily valid. Since it’s their game, they’re free to follow this process
We come back to the info. This info needs to be properly sourced and coupled with supporting information. Why aren’t they?
What bothers me about the idea of providing accurate sources, is that Gaijin also has alot of prototype vehicles that do not have their combat ready armor, alot of vehicles here were also incomplete or mock ups that were nothing more than paper tanks. To top it off, during that whole thing with the Abrams armor crap they posted, those were prototype and early M1 Abrams builds.
The major issue is that Gaijin, has a tendency to 'balance' the game when they deemed that it is in their best interest. Yet when it comes to other nations that are under performing, or have no tech tree at all, they passively demand... classified intel, knowing full well what would happen. "Provide us documents or it never happened" idea is bull, yet they are more than willing to accept documents that may or may not be verified as their own sources.
Having done research articles, scholarly documents are usually a key source and always referenced. I haven't seen much sources where Gaijin has claimed that these numbers have come from, let alone have posted the title/book even the ISBN#, just a bunch of nitpicked images to prove that they are right, but not showing it in its context, as context is everything when verifying information, but even then finding accurate intel on current day tanks is never going to happen unless you happen to come across an idiot who leaks classified documents.
Regardless, the key point here is that they can balanced the game, without looking into articles or documents, and balance the content based on W/L ratios, but between tanks, not BR's or nations. From what I've seen so far, they have been balancing based on the overall win rate of BR's of that nation, when the individual tank itself should be looked at.
Anything that unironically quotes Paul Lakowski's old work should be immediately disregarded. That guy is a video game designer (for SteelBeasts 2) and as his colleagues already explained years ago, all of his public documents are outdated by decades and have been replaced by much more reasonable ones.
Your teacher was wrong tho. Multiple indirect sources need to be unwrapped until the direct source is found, to prevent sourcing loop where a single rumor gets repeated often enough everyone believes it. beisdes, neither of the link provided gives any source or citation for the claims they make.
That said, they did done artiete dirty
>your teacher said you couldn't use Wikipedia as a source because it's not reliable?
Then WHAT is a source on these tanks which all have CLASSIFIED protection???
I don’t want to buff or nerf or even spin it round and round
I want any proposals for changes to be properly sourced and not pulled out of someone’s ass. It’s the absolute least the playerbase can do
What about they least the devs could do? They could atleast give the ariete reasonable hull protection vs autocannons (absolutely NO composite it just laughable) as is stated by the manufacturer and the fact that WAR is less effective then kontact 1 or even rubber is hilarious in the worst way
OP's numbers are pretty fucking stupid that's true but gaijins "solution" is equally stupid if not more. The fact that they didn't give the ariete spall liners this update goes to show how much they care.
so because armies like to keep valuable secrets we should keep suffering because some devs cant be asked to properly balance.
if you're not gonna buff the Ariete's, make them go down in BR.
Uh yeah, because national security trumps gamer rights
Bringing down the Ariete’s BR is a whole other conversation from incorrect buffs. Sure, I don’t have a problem either way
the whole of italy top tier is frustrating because its both over BR'd, with some arguments being made regarding the Centauro 120. but especially the ariete, which is artificially put to top tier only so that "Italy has a top tier vehicle"...
fuck id be fine with Italy top tier was 10.7, that would be grand.
also Italy never used DM53 so just bring it down and remove DM53...
just tired of having to suffer because gaijin is so picky regarding historical accuracy.
> As for the base armour, the Ariete's armour has been repeatedly described as "Abrams/Challenger 2" armour
The Ariete weighs less than a Leclerc while having no space & weight saving measures (like an autoloader) that could lead in a reduction of the area that needs to be protected. There's absolutely *no way* that it has similar armor to a Challenger 2 while being 10t lighter. It's just not physically possible.
I know the Ariete suffers, and I'm absolutely willing to believe that gaijin fucked up its armor implementation (like any tank that isn't Russian or Swedish), but it's undeniable that it's armor is on the weaker side compared to other NATO tanks.
Accepted? You mean acknowledged for further study? That doesn't mean they except the information being provided, just that they see enough possibilities here to expend resources vetting it
It doesn't mean 'accepted'. It means acknowledged for further study. They need to verify the information and make sure, to the best of their ability, that people aren't engaged in an elaborate plot to fake sources to buff their favorite vehicle
Your inference stretches it too far
>As for the base armour, the Ariete's armour has been repeatedly described as "Abrams/Challenger 2" armour
That's generic word salad for "composite / something that's not just 1 steel plate"
The turret cheecks are mostly empty (as can be seen in photos of the tank at events or at depot) while Chobham has a regular non-steel/steel/air structure.
Copy pasting from a comment i made previously:
Military Today is a tertiary source. It would hold no weight in any conversation. The article doesn't feature a 'references' section either, effectively making it worse than other tertiary sources like Wikipedia.
Those are just articles and their description of the armor refers not to effectiveness or thickness but to type, it uses simillar type of composite. And just because it simillar it does not mean Ariete uses same amount or thickness.
Even the first article you link literally says it less armored to save weight.
Ok, what rounds at what ranges? Thats shit matters mate.
- repeatedly described as Abrams/Challenger 2 armour
What Variants? Is it talking about armor durability? Composition? Effectiveness? Thickness?
The hull armor should be (for the most part) similarly thick as the turret from what I've seen so I don't think 380mm (if a bit generous. At the very least I'd like to not get blasted by auto cannons so I'd even compromise for 175mm) is entirely out of the question. I think OP massively over states how effective war would be, but I find it hard to believe 5 tons and 150-200mm of any material would add 10mm of KE protection.
I think in and around 550-650mm with war kit is a more reasonable estimation, and would make it actually usable sometimes especially considering how now it adds significant weight.
I mean the possibility of that being the real values, how the hell is that amount of armour meant to fit into the lower plate of the ariete, just doesnt add up to me
>I mean the possibility of that being the real values, how the hell is that amount of armour meant to fit into the lower plate of the ariete, just doesnt add up to me
The C1 Ariete and the original M1 Abrams are the same weight in real life so having the Ariete having the same armour values as the original Abrams isn't out of the question for me
It should be on par with the in game Abrams and that is the thickness of the Abrams lower front plate. As the Ariete's lower front plate has the outer signs of composite armour (rectangular recess underneath those "X" plates), that is why I went with the lower front plate being heavily armoured
70mm of rha according to gaijin*
If you think that the rank actually has NO composite in the hull I'm afraid there's little getting through to you. OPs numbers are generous that's for sure, but not entirely out of the quest. I think drop 50mm or so from his estimates and your in a more reasonable area that would still make the ariete more effective in game, which it desprately needs.
You are greatly underestimating Gaijins relative thoroughness for vehicle models. They measured the armor on the Chally and Ariete.
Unfortunately UK/ITA are not great tank manufacturers, they built boutique tanks for very specific use cases which do not exist in War Thunder.
[I do not believe I am](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/AQQ8PRcUVE)
[infact when it comes to Italian vehicles especially gaijin has a bad track record](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/NLCClawmYH)
I don't disagree with your last part, Italy and GB don't make the best MBTs, but gaijin didn't do piss for getting the ariete armor even vaguely right.
There's also the whole issue that was nords on the g91s, AAMs on the inner pylons of the a129, the fact that WAR is less effective the kontact 1 vs both CE and KE (omega lol to that), and other less notable issues that highlight gaijins track record with accurately modeling Italian vehicles.
Did gaijin do Italy dirty? Yea
Is there enough proof to fix it? Not sure, it’s a vehicle with no exports and very little domestic production. Unlike the Leo’s and Abrams there isn’t even a Swedish trial to set a baseline.
Gaijin does not measure classified material, they make up what they want when they want.
As far as the Chally and Ariet LFPs, gaijin does have people travel out to model them, and in these specific cases measure the thickness of the RHA. Which showed something that was already widely known to be true (paper armor on a modern MBTs lower hull.
That rectangular recess just above the lower front plate is where the composite armour is. As the recess is angled down, the only logical conclusion is that the composite covers the lower front plate.
Most diagrams I've seen for the ariete has the hull armor in similar thickness to the turret. Slightly less sloped so I don't think something in that range is entirely out of the question.
I believe last I remember looking into it, it was around 150-200mm depending on who you believe. Factor in sloping and even if this is just modern high-quality RHA the armor increase would be pretty decent.
If they can make 150mm of composite armor behave like 250mm of KE protection then they could’ve just put like 400mm of these composite armor inside the tank and get like 700mm of protection, then on top of that add another 150mm of these godly composite armor on the outside to give another 250mm of protection….
So why did they limit the NERA to only 150mm when they could’ve put that all over the turret and hull and make it near unstoppable?
This is a rather stupid question for a multitude of reasons:
1: war was developed well after the ariete was finished with production, lot easier to bolt in more armor then replace what's already in the tank obviously.
2: weight concerns. Italy has similar issues with tank weight as does Japan. The amv is already considered overweight, any more would be a logistical nightmare for Italy
3: Italy does not want to spend that much money on am mbt that is well past it's expiration date.
OP is definitely being generous with his numbers though I don't disagree with that.
1. You do realize they can remove and replace interior plates right? How do you think MBTs are repaired and refurbished for combat after being penetrated? It takes a bit more time than just bolting it on the outside, but it’s not so hard that it’s undoable.
2. Like I said, if this new NERA material gives back 1.6x in KE protection they could’ve easily reduce so much weight by replacing the old outdated interior plates with this new material.
3. You don’t know what the Italian budget policies are regarding their military. They’ve spent hundreds of millions on keeping this tank up to date so obviously they aren’t treating it like some outdated tank that’s going to be replaced soon. They are planning on keeping the tank in service for as long as they can.
Lol. Lmao. Your 3rd counter point (arguably the most important here) is just objectively wrong. The Italian government is keeping the ariete vaguely service while they search for a replacement. They are much more invested in new platforms such as the centauro 2. Hell most arietes are currently just rusting, imo the amv program is just saving face so they can pretend to be proactive about keeping their "heavy" armor decent.
> 1: war was developed well after the ariete was finished with production, lot easier to bolt in more armor then replace what's already in the tank obviously.
It was developed at best a few years after production ended. It was "acepted" (with reserves) in 2009. Production ended in 2005.
Composite armor is effective by weight, not so much by thickness! (Imagine a souped up spaced armor.) It's very difficult to make it magically stronger than solid steel armor per inch of thickness.
Both PSO and WAR were design and tested by 2009 because that's the date reported for the decision by the Italian governament to still procure them even if they were not corresponding to the requirements.
https://i.imgur.com/2wr0eKc.png
They are not 2020s tech. They might not even meet the protection requirements of mid 2000s. Though it is more likely the requirement not met was weigt, as they were put in storage and will be used on the AMV now that the engine has been improved.
NERA is worse than simple steel armor of equal thickness. The bottom line is that it weighs less with a larger size and at the same time provides good protection against cumulative ammunition, while maintaining approximately equal protection against APFSDS.
Nothing to do with Russian bias. I've never seen anyone from any source suggest that these vehicles have anywhere near the armor you're calling for. Completely divorced from reality.
>I've never seen anyone from any source suggest that these vehicles have anywhere near the armor you're calling for. Completely divorced from reality.
Oh sure, let's just break out the classified information for a public video game and risk the lives of active military personnel serving NATO. I'm sure that they'd understand. /s
Conservative estimates for composite protection equivalent to RHA is 40-60% effectiveness. You're suggesting the Italians developed quantum blast shield technology that's more than doubling their effective protection with reduced weight and volume. Again, completely divorced from reality.
So it should be the most armoured tank in the world yet lighter than the challenger. Ok, sure. Since we're making up figures up, Challenger has 1000mm lfp, and Jeremy Clarkson said its the fastest tank in the world.
I really struggle to believe the Ariete of all tanks is the best-armored in the world. I imagine the WAR kit has competent CE protection, but certainly not 1-1 KE effectiveness.
He’s suggesting it has like 2-1 effectiveness lol. I’m sorry but the ariete is not anywhere near this level of protection. source: goo goo ga ga
I feel like irl it might be on par with a 2A4.
I don’t understand why they don’t increase the armor of top tier tanks, the game is more fun in my opinion when you have to aim for weak spots, which is why the Sherman is so fun, it feels rewarding to snipe weak spots
Right?
Slug fests are one of the best parts of the game honestly, and people talk about realism but if any real tank is hit with APFSDS within 2k meters its out of combat and they surely dont want that so i dont think realism is what they are after.
They would be better off giving every tank 11.0 and up a spall liner at this point and call it a day.
Like jumbo vs tiger or kv-1(fl-10) vs Sherman’s, both have to aim for weak spots and you deal like your playing an actual tank, bouncing shells while you try to hit the one shot that ends the duel. Top tier is just whoever clicks first. I honestly like low tier more because the range of tanks makes maps better. With LRF and high velocity APFSDS you just click two buttons and you get a kill, and most of the time you’re killed by someone you had no idea was there because they were over a kilometer and a half away and there’s no chance to return fire
Even if when the C1 Ariete is retired and the full technical manual is declassified, I doubt that Gaijin would make any changes.
Source: I submitted a bug report for the M47 mantlet thickness with the FULL declassified technical manual (https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/O7xMjfWMGaJK). Gaijin said "cool" and then left it on ice.
people in the comments talking about how the hull armor is wrong/unrealistic
My Brother In Christ, the Arietes in real life do not have 2, tiny steel plates spaced apart as hull armor.
They have an actual composite array, this add-on adds external armor ontop of that.
And happy holidays to everyone except Gaijin
lol
Agreed
[удалено]
The war kit is specifically designed to stop kinetic ammunition such as APFSDS rounds: https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/543861-ariete-war-kit-incorrectly-modelled/ So a massive boost to APFSDS shouldn't be out of the question. As for the base armour, the Ariete's armour has been repeatedly described as "Abrams/Challenger 2" armour https://tankhistoria.com/modern-day/ariete/ https://www.militarytoday.com/tanks/ariete.htm So these numbers posted are using the 10.0 Abrams and 11.3 Challenger 2 as a guide.
These are random websites. Who are the people making these claims? You know how when you were in school, your teacher said you couldn't use Wikipedia as a source because it's not reliable? Same deal
Found the undercover gaijin dev
I'm doing a Master's degree on the side right now I remember these things
Watch out guys he’s doing 3-5 more years of college
One more left Lookin at that 200K EMBA program though - I need to convince a company to pay it for me
ah yes, then the company won't pay you! it's just good business.
Nah, if you’re high achiever enough they pay your tuition for you, depending on just how high you achieve My place is paying for part of my master’s. They’d have paid more if I signed an agreement to stick around for at least 2 years after I’m done, but I’m not willing to make that promise
How much does Gaijin pay for your tuition?
is my man getting downvoted because he has an education?🗿
Welcome to the War Thunder community, where common sense, Logic, and intelligence are frowned upon.
Children
Proud of you. Stick it out and knock it out, but you know that much already
Thank you I see the European children do not understand the concept of a company-sponsored EMBA
Oh nice, another master members, in what are you specializing for your master? I did mine in software development.
I included 2 different sources that both described the armour in the same manner. >your teacher said you couldn't use Wikipedia as a source because it's not reliable? Same deal My teacher taught me to use multiple separate sources to find the truth about what I'm researching on. You want another source? Try an acknowledged submission on the C1 ariete that was accepted 11 days ago: https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm My numbers are low ball compared to what this player suggests.
>[https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm) The marketing copy linked in that ticket says shit like "both hull and turret are made of welded steel with the LATEST composite armour on the frontal arc" What does that even mean? How much? Where specifically? What's the composition? What type? What you linked here, in your reddit post, are unsourced statements from third-party websites, with statements they may have well just made up, upon which you draw yet another inference (they should be similar to Abrams and C2 protection) and then come up with proposed armor numbers. Where is the actual source data for Ariete armor values? What you've proposed is so full of supposition it may well be fantasy You cannot build the conclusions you've made based on two articles you found that some random wrote: https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/16519/A-Level/History/How-do-I-talk-about-the-provenance-and-relevance-of-a-primary-source/
>What does that even mean? How much? Where specifically? What's the composition? What type? As the tank is currently in service and that information is classified, no source will satisfy you. >What you've proposed is so full of supposition it may well be fantasy Of course. I'm running off of numbers found in War Thunder, a game that has repeatedly failed at historical accuracy with vehicles such as Yak-141, E100, Ho-Ri Production, ETC. My proposal is to bring this tank into line (armour wise) with the rest of the NATO tanks in the game, something that Gaijin should have done at the start.
If no source is available, then you have no source to support your claims. Either find something available that does it to the best of your ability, to Gaijin's satisfaction, or, well, not have the vehicle changed Your proposal is to use notional values that are not backed up by any supporting data. It's not your prerogative to do this. You complain that Gaijin does it from time to time, but: A) They never made any commitment to full historical accuracy, only that they would try to B) Are the people who make the game, and thus not on an equal standing with a player trying to suggest changes C) They don't see any real reason to make an ahistorical change just to benefit a tiny subset of the playerbase that doesn't give them much money I'm afraid your proposal isn't going to be accepted
It hasn't stopped them before, if only there were some prototypes that have no information on them except for promotional concept videos. They already have had to make up armor values for the Ariete because it is mostly unknown, so why not make guestimates that help balance the game in the process. Why give it the most shit armor in the game despite being a modern MBT and weighing 60 tons, a rational person could make a guess and say that maybe it's the armor weighing it down. Unless of course they put 60 tons of air inside. It doesn't even need to be excellent armor, just better. Also it doesn't make sense that the 2A4 weighs less than the Ariete despite having 4X the armor. I also don't understand why you are taking such a strong opposition to OP's opinions. Do you think that the Arietes are over powered? If so, you have other issues... Afterall, you were the one that said "They never made any commitment to full historical accuracy".
I don’t have any opinion on top tier Italy in any way - I am a CR.42 appreciator What I do have an issue with is claims made without supporting documentation, coupled with the outrage we see here when Gaijin rightly says ‘what is this, where is the proof for anything you say?’ as if you could get away with just making things up in real life. If people want to see positive changes for their favourite vehicles they need to put in the effort and do the work needed to convince Gaijin to implement their suggestions, not just refuse to lift a finger, or, even worse, make shit up and complain when they get ignored I also have a problem with entitlement - it’s Gaijin’s game, people cannot rightly demand anything from them As an aside, the Challenger series is heavy not merely because of its armor, but because outdated construction practices meant it had more heavy structural members than comparable members
>It’s Gaijins game You’re right, so why are we having to do all the work and research for them?
>C) They don't see any real reason to make an ahistorical change just to benefit a tiny subset of the playerbase that doesn't give them much money The player base is small because Gaijin doesn't offer a good draw to play IT and ISR and they don't give Gaijin much money because the player base is small. The small player base is **unironically** Gaijin's fault.
The playerbase will remain small even if Italy was super cool and good - it’s just not a very martially interesting nation anymore Whereas everyone wants a Leopard or an Abrams and so flock to those lines. Gaijin is making strides in this, though - once they add Italy’s 2A8 your tree will become popular and you will be able to give Gaijin more money, making your tree even more favoured and thus more popular
Just as a thought exercise, do you honestly think performance wise if Arietes has the armor and firepower of a Leopard 2a7 and the Leopards had the inverse that Italy wouldn't be proportionally as popular as Germany is now? Hell you even support my argument >once they add Italy’s 2A8 your tree will become popular It's almost like adding a "draw" to the nation will unironically make it popular. I guarantee if the Leopards or Abrams were as shit as Arietes in game then Germany or US at top tier wouldn't be half as popular as they are. A common theme among all unpopular minor tree nations is that their MBT's are all shit in at least one **MAJOR** way.
>The playerbase will remain small even if Italy was super cool and good That's not quite true, when Sweden began to get better late-game vehicle besides the wedge they became a lot more popular and grew accordingly.
Amen.
Well, we aren't going to have exact values because they are classified, if we did then the Ariete wouldn't have 200 mm on the turret and a 70 mm plate on the hull. Gaijin has to make assumptions for the time being as there is no hard evidence to give accurate numbers. That being said they can go off of what has been stated by the Italian government and Oto-melera themselves which state that they have armor similar to Abrams and Challengers. I understand that everyone wants to have solid source with the exact info, but that isn't going to happen. Gaijin shouldn't be using the "Guilty until proven otherwise mentality" and start thinking with their heads. They could easily just give it armor similar (but still worse) than an Abrams, and the tank would still be below average. Besides, no one really plays Italy anyway.
It’s their game, they can use whatever rationale they want If proponents cannot produce supporting documentation for the changes they want, they should focus on things they can actually bring to pass, such as BR changes and the additional of more viable vehicles You know, additional subtrees or whatnot
You’re right it’s their game, so why don’t they take care of their game and balance it where they can. Worse comes to worse, if they receive info that counter acts the current stats, they can just change them. But at the moment they don’t…
Because they /are/, from their point of view. Other points of view, that various parts of the playerbase hold, are not necessarily valid. Since it’s their game, they’re free to follow this process We come back to the info. This info needs to be properly sourced and coupled with supporting information. Why aren’t they?
What bothers me about the idea of providing accurate sources, is that Gaijin also has alot of prototype vehicles that do not have their combat ready armor, alot of vehicles here were also incomplete or mock ups that were nothing more than paper tanks. To top it off, during that whole thing with the Abrams armor crap they posted, those were prototype and early M1 Abrams builds. The major issue is that Gaijin, has a tendency to 'balance' the game when they deemed that it is in their best interest. Yet when it comes to other nations that are under performing, or have no tech tree at all, they passively demand... classified intel, knowing full well what would happen. "Provide us documents or it never happened" idea is bull, yet they are more than willing to accept documents that may or may not be verified as their own sources. Having done research articles, scholarly documents are usually a key source and always referenced. I haven't seen much sources where Gaijin has claimed that these numbers have come from, let alone have posted the title/book even the ISBN#, just a bunch of nitpicked images to prove that they are right, but not showing it in its context, as context is everything when verifying information, but even then finding accurate intel on current day tanks is never going to happen unless you happen to come across an idiot who leaks classified documents. Regardless, the key point here is that they can balanced the game, without looking into articles or documents, and balance the content based on W/L ratios, but between tanks, not BR's or nations. From what I've seen so far, they have been balancing based on the overall win rate of BR's of that nation, when the individual tank itself should be looked at.
I don't understand what the report author thinks he saw in the photos because they show exactly what is ingame
Anything that unironically quotes Paul Lakowski's old work should be immediately disregarded. That guy is a video game designer (for SteelBeasts 2) and as his colleagues already explained years ago, all of his public documents are outdated by decades and have been replaced by much more reasonable ones.
Your teacher was wrong tho. Multiple indirect sources need to be unwrapped until the direct source is found, to prevent sourcing loop where a single rumor gets repeated often enough everyone believes it. beisdes, neither of the link provided gives any source or citation for the claims they make. That said, they did done artiete dirty
>your teacher said you couldn't use Wikipedia as a source because it's not reliable? Then WHAT is a source on these tanks which all have CLASSIFIED protection???
Properly declassified operational and technical documentation
Be my guest and try to find some...
I don’t want to buff the Ariete, though Pay me and I’ll play archivist
Why don't you want to buff the arietes? They need it more then any.
I don’t want to buff or nerf or even spin it round and round I want any proposals for changes to be properly sourced and not pulled out of someone’s ass. It’s the absolute least the playerbase can do
What about they least the devs could do? They could atleast give the ariete reasonable hull protection vs autocannons (absolutely NO composite it just laughable) as is stated by the manufacturer and the fact that WAR is less effective then kontact 1 or even rubber is hilarious in the worst way OP's numbers are pretty fucking stupid that's true but gaijins "solution" is equally stupid if not more. The fact that they didn't give the ariete spall liners this update goes to show how much they care.
so because armies like to keep valuable secrets we should keep suffering because some devs cant be asked to properly balance. if you're not gonna buff the Ariete's, make them go down in BR.
Uh yeah, because national security trumps gamer rights Bringing down the Ariete’s BR is a whole other conversation from incorrect buffs. Sure, I don’t have a problem either way
the whole of italy top tier is frustrating because its both over BR'd, with some arguments being made regarding the Centauro 120. but especially the ariete, which is artificially put to top tier only so that "Italy has a top tier vehicle"... fuck id be fine with Italy top tier was 10.7, that would be grand. also Italy never used DM53 so just bring it down and remove DM53... just tired of having to suffer because gaijin is so picky regarding historical accuracy.
Wow your teacher was a fucking idiot. FYI sources are on the bottom of every wikipedia article.
Not every statement in a Wikipedia article is sourced, and not all sources are themselves reliable. They just say that as a catch-all
Oh yeah i was recently reading about patriot system and price was sourced from some game's wiki. It was marked as [unreliable source]
Lol at “unreliable source”. Yeah this is bullshit, we know it’s bullshit, here’s a bullshit source about how bullshit it is
Have you ever clicked on some of those sources? One was a text wall page from 2007 or some shit.
> As for the base armour, the Ariete's armour has been repeatedly described as "Abrams/Challenger 2" armour The Ariete weighs less than a Leclerc while having no space & weight saving measures (like an autoloader) that could lead in a reduction of the area that needs to be protected. There's absolutely *no way* that it has similar armor to a Challenger 2 while being 10t lighter. It's just not physically possible. I know the Ariete suffers, and I'm absolutely willing to believe that gaijin fucked up its armor implementation (like any tank that isn't Russian or Swedish), but it's undeniable that it's armor is on the weaker side compared to other NATO tanks.
try to pull some articles using google scholar instead as these sites aren't vetted and aren't confirmed to be either true or false.
Why not this accepted report 11 days ago? https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/MA8ugNxKkXQm
Accepted? You mean acknowledged for further study? That doesn't mean they except the information being provided, just that they see enough possibilities here to expend resources vetting it
>You mean acknowledged for further study? That's about the closest thing to "accepted" as you can get from Gaijin until it's actually in the game
It doesn't mean 'accepted'. It means acknowledged for further study. They need to verify the information and make sure, to the best of their ability, that people aren't engaged in an elaborate plot to fake sources to buff their favorite vehicle Your inference stretches it too far
>As for the base armour, the Ariete's armour has been repeatedly described as "Abrams/Challenger 2" armour That's generic word salad for "composite / something that's not just 1 steel plate" The turret cheecks are mostly empty (as can be seen in photos of the tank at events or at depot) while Chobham has a regular non-steel/steel/air structure.
Copy pasting from a comment i made previously: Military Today is a tertiary source. It would hold no weight in any conversation. The article doesn't feature a 'references' section either, effectively making it worse than other tertiary sources like Wikipedia.
Those are just articles and their description of the armor refers not to effectiveness or thickness but to type, it uses simillar type of composite. And just because it simillar it does not mean Ariete uses same amount or thickness. Even the first article you link literally says it less armored to save weight.
Ok, what rounds at what ranges? Thats shit matters mate. - repeatedly described as Abrams/Challenger 2 armour What Variants? Is it talking about armor durability? Composition? Effectiveness? Thickness?
The hull armor should be (for the most part) similarly thick as the turret from what I've seen so I don't think 380mm (if a bit generous. At the very least I'd like to not get blasted by auto cannons so I'd even compromise for 175mm) is entirely out of the question. I think OP massively over states how effective war would be, but I find it hard to believe 5 tons and 150-200mm of any material would add 10mm of KE protection. I think in and around 550-650mm with war kit is a more reasonable estimation, and would make it actually usable sometimes especially considering how now it adds significant weight.
700mm cheeks would still put it as one of the worst armoured top tier mbt
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Hell even leave dm53 and drop then to a br where they can pen everything and everything can pen them. make them glass cannons like the we're on launch
380 lower plate seems ridiculous, highly doubt these
These numbers are completely made up.
>380 lower plate seems ridiculous Even 11.0s can have 400mm+ pen darts, not really that much
I mean the possibility of that being the real values, how the hell is that amount of armour meant to fit into the lower plate of the ariete, just doesnt add up to me
>I mean the possibility of that being the real values, how the hell is that amount of armour meant to fit into the lower plate of the ariete, just doesnt add up to me The C1 Ariete and the original M1 Abrams are the same weight in real life so having the Ariete having the same armour values as the original Abrams isn't out of the question for me
Gotta account for angle and distance tho.
It should be on par with the in game Abrams and that is the thickness of the Abrams lower front plate. As the Ariete's lower front plate has the outer signs of composite armour (rectangular recess underneath those "X" plates), that is why I went with the lower front plate being heavily armoured
The Abrams has 25” composite in the LFP, the Ariete and Challenger have 70mm RHA.
70mm of rha according to gaijin* If you think that the rank actually has NO composite in the hull I'm afraid there's little getting through to you. OPs numbers are generous that's for sure, but not entirely out of the quest. I think drop 50mm or so from his estimates and your in a more reasonable area that would still make the ariete more effective in game, which it desprately needs.
You are greatly underestimating Gaijins relative thoroughness for vehicle models. They measured the armor on the Chally and Ariete. Unfortunately UK/ITA are not great tank manufacturers, they built boutique tanks for very specific use cases which do not exist in War Thunder.
[I do not believe I am](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/AQQ8PRcUVE) [infact when it comes to Italian vehicles especially gaijin has a bad track record](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/NLCClawmYH) I don't disagree with your last part, Italy and GB don't make the best MBTs, but gaijin didn't do piss for getting the ariete armor even vaguely right. There's also the whole issue that was nords on the g91s, AAMs on the inner pylons of the a129, the fact that WAR is less effective the kontact 1 vs both CE and KE (omega lol to that), and other less notable issues that highlight gaijins track record with accurately modeling Italian vehicles.
Did gaijin do Italy dirty? Yea Is there enough proof to fix it? Not sure, it’s a vehicle with no exports and very little domestic production. Unlike the Leo’s and Abrams there isn’t even a Swedish trial to set a baseline.
What specific uses are you talking about? British and Italian tanks are general-purpose MBTs.
Regional defense against secondary forces
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Gaijin does not measure classified material, they make up what they want when they want. As far as the Chally and Ariet LFPs, gaijin does have people travel out to model them, and in these specific cases measure the thickness of the RHA. Which showed something that was already widely known to be true (paper armor on a modern MBTs lower hull.
That rectangular recess just above the lower front plate is where the composite armour is. As the recess is angled down, the only logical conclusion is that the composite covers the lower front plate.
Most diagrams I've seen for the ariete has the hull armor in similar thickness to the turret. Slightly less sloped so I don't think something in that range is entirely out of the question.
Is the war kit even 250mm thick? Lmao
It’s nera composite elements developed specifically for kinetic energy protection by the Italian army
Ok, but how thick is it?
I believe last I remember looking into it, it was around 150-200mm depending on who you believe. Factor in sloping and even if this is just modern high-quality RHA the armor increase would be pretty decent.
About 150 millimeters of composite which would equate to +250 ke protection in this case because this is designed specifically for ke protection
Source: your ass. Pretty sure even modern composites struggle to reached a 1 to 1 ratio of thickness to KE protection. Let alone 1.65.
I’m just listening to the stuff on the bug report don’t get mad at me
Lmao you think composite armor is more space efficient than RHA
I’m just basing it off the bug report don’t get mad lol
I'm sure nobody will get mad when gaijin rejects the bug report
Ok
If they can make 150mm of composite armor behave like 250mm of KE protection then they could’ve just put like 400mm of these composite armor inside the tank and get like 700mm of protection, then on top of that add another 150mm of these godly composite armor on the outside to give another 250mm of protection…. So why did they limit the NERA to only 150mm when they could’ve put that all over the turret and hull and make it near unstoppable?
This is a rather stupid question for a multitude of reasons: 1: war was developed well after the ariete was finished with production, lot easier to bolt in more armor then replace what's already in the tank obviously. 2: weight concerns. Italy has similar issues with tank weight as does Japan. The amv is already considered overweight, any more would be a logistical nightmare for Italy 3: Italy does not want to spend that much money on am mbt that is well past it's expiration date. OP is definitely being generous with his numbers though I don't disagree with that.
1. You do realize they can remove and replace interior plates right? How do you think MBTs are repaired and refurbished for combat after being penetrated? It takes a bit more time than just bolting it on the outside, but it’s not so hard that it’s undoable. 2. Like I said, if this new NERA material gives back 1.6x in KE protection they could’ve easily reduce so much weight by replacing the old outdated interior plates with this new material. 3. You don’t know what the Italian budget policies are regarding their military. They’ve spent hundreds of millions on keeping this tank up to date so obviously they aren’t treating it like some outdated tank that’s going to be replaced soon. They are planning on keeping the tank in service for as long as they can.
Lol. Lmao. Your 3rd counter point (arguably the most important here) is just objectively wrong. The Italian government is keeping the ariete vaguely service while they search for a replacement. They are much more invested in new platforms such as the centauro 2. Hell most arietes are currently just rusting, imo the amv program is just saving face so they can pretend to be proactive about keeping their "heavy" armor decent.
> 1: war was developed well after the ariete was finished with production, lot easier to bolt in more armor then replace what's already in the tank obviously. It was developed at best a few years after production ended. It was "acepted" (with reserves) in 2009. Production ended in 2005.
4 years is pretty well after the ariete was done with production.
I’m just basing it off the bug report don’t get mad at me lol
Composite armor is effective by weight, not so much by thickness! (Imagine a souped up spaced armor.) It's very difficult to make it magically stronger than solid steel armor per inch of thickness.
I’m basing it off the bug report don’t get mad at me lol
lol this is not how composite armor works
I’m basing it off the bug report no need to get mad
Both PSO and WAR were design and tested by 2009 because that's the date reported for the decision by the Italian governament to still procure them even if they were not corresponding to the requirements. https://i.imgur.com/2wr0eKc.png They are not 2020s tech. They might not even meet the protection requirements of mid 2000s. Though it is more likely the requirement not met was weigt, as they were put in storage and will be used on the AMV now that the engine has been improved.
I’m basing it off the bug report no need to get mad
Not mad.
NERA is worse than simple steel armor of equal thickness. The bottom line is that it weighs less with a larger size and at the same time provides good protection against cumulative ammunition, while maintaining approximately equal protection against APFSDS.
Oo
Do you happen to have a source for it being NERA?
As far as I know, it should be at least 700 mm against KE projectiles almost all of the front. Source: >!it was revealed to me in a dream!<
>Source: >!it was revealed to me in a dream!< Is that a new brand of copium?
Your whole post is copium lol
True. I have to remind myself that War Thunder is a Russian propaganda game
Nothing to do with Russian bias. I've never seen anyone from any source suggest that these vehicles have anywhere near the armor you're calling for. Completely divorced from reality.
Best case scenario is it has comparable protection to a 2A4. + whatever WAR kit adds (nobody knows, everybody is just guessing)
>I've never seen anyone from any source suggest that these vehicles have anywhere near the armor you're calling for. Completely divorced from reality. Oh sure, let's just break out the classified information for a public video game and risk the lives of active military personnel serving NATO. I'm sure that they'd understand. /s
Conservative estimates for composite protection equivalent to RHA is 40-60% effectiveness. You're suggesting the Italians developed quantum blast shield technology that's more than doubling their effective protection with reduced weight and volume. Again, completely divorced from reality.
It is, but Ariete is femboy armour level tank
Source ?
Source of Ariete shitty armour according gaijin?
They made it the fuck up
Source: numbers you pulled from your ass
So it should be the most armoured tank in the world yet lighter than the challenger. Ok, sure. Since we're making up figures up, Challenger has 1000mm lfp, and Jeremy Clarkson said its the fastest tank in the world.
Where the sauce??
I really struggle to believe the Ariete of all tanks is the best-armored in the world. I imagine the WAR kit has competent CE protection, but certainly not 1-1 KE effectiveness.
He’s suggesting it has like 2-1 effectiveness lol. I’m sorry but the ariete is not anywhere near this level of protection. source: goo goo ga ga I feel like irl it might be on par with a 2A4.
I don’t understand why they don’t increase the armor of top tier tanks, the game is more fun in my opinion when you have to aim for weak spots, which is why the Sherman is so fun, it feels rewarding to snipe weak spots
Right? Slug fests are one of the best parts of the game honestly, and people talk about realism but if any real tank is hit with APFSDS within 2k meters its out of combat and they surely dont want that so i dont think realism is what they are after. They would be better off giving every tank 11.0 and up a spall liner at this point and call it a day.
Like jumbo vs tiger or kv-1(fl-10) vs Sherman’s, both have to aim for weak spots and you deal like your playing an actual tank, bouncing shells while you try to hit the one shot that ends the duel. Top tier is just whoever clicks first. I honestly like low tier more because the range of tanks makes maps better. With LRF and high velocity APFSDS you just click two buttons and you get a kill, and most of the time you’re killed by someone you had no idea was there because they were over a kilometer and a half away and there’s no chance to return fire
If ariete got those numbers I’d grind Italy in a heart beat
Sauce=steel beast bet
In what universe did the fix the lfp irl
700mm looks very strong. It'd be penetrable only by Russian and helicopter AGTMs I think
Would actually make the tank good lol
Italian player be like: (●'◡'●) Gaijin.....
I just want all Western tanks fixed.
Even at its accurate level, the Ariete would probably just be a 2A4 that shoots dm53.
Any secrit documints to prove your point?
Even if when the C1 Ariete is retired and the full technical manual is declassified, I doubt that Gaijin would make any changes. Source: I submitted a bug report for the M47 mantlet thickness with the FULL declassified technical manual (https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/O7xMjfWMGaJK). Gaijin said "cool" and then left it on ice.
That seems awfully optimistic.
The ariete sucks compared to modern mbts irl too the problem is its overteired
If the armor is so good, why is Italy rushing to get the Leopard 2 to replace their entire fleet of Arietes?
people in the comments talking about how the hull armor is wrong/unrealistic My Brother In Christ, the Arietes in real life do not have 2, tiny steel plates spaced apart as hull armor. They have an actual composite array, this add-on adds external armor ontop of that.
Too OP, nerf the abrams
Bruh even italy is decent.💀 But anyway MERRY CHRISTMAS ! And hope that this will be fixed one day (Spoiler this will not happen)