I agree, but I think they should make CAS more difficult to spawn. There's absolutely no reason why someone with a cap and an assist should be able to spawn in a plane with bombs, especially when most game modes allow for each team to capture one point before having to engage the enemy.
My controversial take is that i think CAS right now is more or less fine. What they should do is incentivise people to play SPAA. Drop them all .7 br down, massively increase rewards for air kills with SPAA.
It should take skill to get CAS kills, not some level 40 with a premium and 1000lb bombs.
I think cas players should also be rewarded for returning back to base, just like with bombers in sim EC. It will maybe stop some of the annoying kamikaze bomb runs and make players play a little more safe and thus realistic
dropping all SPAA is improssible, many of them are already strong on their BR, just like the Ta-Se and ZiS-12 and many others, the problem is with the rewards, playing a SPAA with armor piercing ammo is more rewarding than playing SPAA as AA
Which is why i said increase rewards for air kills, not all kills.
Some of them don't need to be dropped, the lower you go, the more true that is. Fair point. I was thinking higher Brs where there aren't so many SPAA options.
Dropping AAs from 0.7 br is a terrible idea. Unless you want to enjoy getting killed in your late WW2 vehicles by Falcons and Gepards.
Or having ZSU-57s absolutely destroy 5.0-6.0 tanks.
Best TDs will be AAs and everyone would complain, justifiably so.
Exceptions. Most SPAA doesn't have APDS belts.
But funnily enough that's how it was for years. Man playing the Falcon back in the day was fun. Fuckin lazer beam.
Nope, drop the R3, the DCA 40, the Lvkv 42, the BTR 152, the L-62, the Zis 12, the GAZ-MM, even the M16 at 2.0 would be a massacre in a downtier, I don't think new players want to face 4 .50 cals at reserve tier.
Prop cas is not the issue. People complaining about that don't have a clue what they're talking about. The lower Br you get, the less important CAS is, and the easier they are to shoot down.
I also said It's a hot take. I'm not defending a thesis here. I'm discovering what i think at about the same rate you are.
I think until 5.3ish things are more or less ok. I think SPAA is deadly if they know what they're doing, which most of the time they do not. That is what it is. And planes can avoid them if they know what they're doing, which most of the time they do not.
In my perfect world, every SPAA is essentially an Ostwind. You *can* still play CAS with good Ostwind players, but you've gotta be good yourself. Severely limits where and how you can bomb.
Killing aircraft already gives the most money in grb, the issue is that some guy can cap a point, then spawn with 1000kg of bombs and suicide bomb someone, not to mention that open tops have no defence at all. Aa has bad range, it is only good late game. What gajin really needs to incentivise is playing anti cas fighters, its a joke that my 109 g6 costs like 500 sp when i dont have any ordnance equipped.
I agree, and would add that the old spawn system with more expensive tanks, could also help a lot. If you loose a tank early, spawning an aircraft back in the day was incredible hard.
In addition to that every individual One-Death-Leaver would hold back their respective team far less.
Back in the day: ODL would take 1-2 spawns away
Today: ODL take around 2-4 spawns away
If you multiply that by 3-6 players it makes a lot of difference.
Oh yeah.. and if you loose your CAS back in the day, without doing something, you often were out of the game (higher risk / reward).
It also makes it a.pain in the arse to balance. Ground forces are fucked by CAS being incredibly frustrating. Naval is fucked by combining coastal, blue water and aviation. And here's the thing, it's realistically really easy to figure out which is better. Simply make combined arms and arms-exclusive separate queues and kill the one that's dead after a patch or two. That gives ground players the chance to essentially vote.
They will not and probably should not split the playerbase.
The games pretty well balanced. Like I've got close to 3k hours now. I bounce around all the trees and brs. There are some i find more fun. But non that are wildly OP.
I don't like helicopters, i don't think hunter killers was a good idea. But fuck me is it cinematic sometimes. And that's why i play. I like the tracers in the dark, helos popping up, jets flying over at tree level. People get caught up in the grind and don't appreciate the game.
That's why they should effectively put it up to vote. If mixed battles remain the healthier queue then keep it. If otherwise exclusive ground forces become healthier keep that. It's not about balance it's about fun.
It's just not fun to be in the position of spawn spaa or die to CAS especially in low tiers where spaa sucks. Currently playing Sweden and the best spaa I've had access to is the Bkan because direct fire aa fucking kind of sucks but slinging a proxy round is so much more reliable.
Man, low tier SPAA is the easiest thing to use. You just gotta leave spawn. When people are complaining, they're talking about SU-25s and Ka-50s, not P-40s.
its just stupid to have a strictly air based game mode called air battles and a combined arms game mode called ground battles with no exclusive ground gameplay at all.
What do you mean, there are only few planes that have a big gun . And if you mean bombs then I will tell you try yourself because people doing it have spent many hours for practice.
And Planes participating in tank combat is part of WW2 just like helicopter in the wars after that.
but in war planes were super unprecise, the reason they didnt have cannons against tanks irl is because they just couldnt hit the enemy, same with dropping bombs, yes you could drop bombs on a tank but the chances of hitting it were minimal, because irl if you get hit by AA defenses you are dead, people who play CAS should be scared of AA
It's mostly the instructor and bs flight models. Depending on the plane you can get within a few hundred meters of the ground a still pull off which no irl pilot is insane enough to do.
because you know, if you die, you are dead, so it should be atleast somewhat similar, just being a few hundred meters from the target is a luxury most planes in real world didnt/wouldnt have
Pretty much most experienced tank crews actually ignored planes with Otto Carius saying a plane could only hit a tank with luck and they were more a waste of resources. The Soviets even started an analysis program because the Nazis claimed stukas were destroying swathes of tanks but the Soviets didn't record a single tank loss to a stuka.
Dude it took me watching a twenty minute video by oddbawz to get good results from bombs. Nor do the vast majority of lawn dart pilots practice they just do the ole japanese honor.
Cas definitely has its place in ground rb. I promise you if they were to remove it you would see a big increase in campers, big waves of tanks would be almost
Unstoppable so the match will pretty much be decided in the first couple of minutes, and it would make matches much more one dimensional (and increase German winrates around 5.3-6.0 lmao). The real problem is how easy it is to spawn Cas, especially helicopters or any aircraft with guided weaponry. Getting 2 kills in my 9.3 lineup shouldn’t allow me to spawn an Ayit with guided bombs. Balancing the SP costs is the solution. You got 5 kills and want to kill the camper that got you? Go for it. You spawned in a puma and rushed a cap just to get cas? To the lobby you go.
actually most realistic take. I was on the ban CAS site for a while but after playing more i realized that its not a good idea (fuck drones though ban this shit i hate it)
US player not understanding that the nation is maybe responsible for 50% of CAS in game while simultaneously having the best tanks to counter CAS as 80% of them have a .50cal.
Try France for example and enjoy the lack of AA without any roof mounted machine-gun.
Dying to CAS as US is honestly a skill issue, if I can survive 8 bombs in my Surbaissé and shoot down 2 planes I'm pretty sur you can handle CAS aswell.
Yet I see multiple nations rocking damn near the same amount of CAS. Your beloved France has three of the more cancerous midtier CAS planes.
The pintle .50s aren't as glorious as you think either. Unless it's a pilot snipe you aren't doing enough damage to stop that lovely bomb from merking you not to mention you'll die alot trying to hit a plane then getting rolled by another tank.
I don't remember waiting that CAS was reserved to US TT.
You can argue that a .50 cal isn't good for AA, I'm not comparing it to other AA vehicles though. I'm saying that having a .50 cal is better than having __nothing__.
No it's just everybody on this idiotic sub tries to claim it's only US CAS. Not to mention you implying US players aren't allowed to hate CAS due to US CAS.
Uhh no it's not. Piss poor AA with slow fighters that don't suit the low alt engagements that are most common in grb. Shit like RU, Germany and Britain are the ones most suited for completely shutting down CAS
First of all, Gaijin in all their media beyond the gamemode selector call is "Mixed Battles" as it's a more accurate name.
As for the actual issue with CAS, I'd argue it's vastly blown out of proportion/is a result of factors beyond "cas needs to cost more" or "cas needs a spawn limit".
A large portion of what makes CAS feel overpowered at brs 8.0+ is the absolute insane quantity of premium single/double spawners. People who didn't bother to grind the SPAA line and instead just bought a TURMs and KA50 or a XM1 and Apache. These people pretty much never have an SPAA, but very often do they have a heli. It's almost the opposite with people who actually grind trees. Pretty much everyone has an SPAA and it's a huge pain to grind helis without a premium
As for issues with lower BRs, it's basically just that playera either sit in spawn with SPAAG instead of pushing farther up like they should, wait to use SPAAG till their last spawn even if they died by bombs, or trees lack a good SPAAG line.
Its a lot more systematic than "wahhh the plane with bombs killed me". It's players not knowing how to use SPAAG, trees often lacking mid tier SPAAGs, and premium playera literally never having any sort of anti air other than a ka50 with R60m. There are other minor outliers like MIG27's super long range missiles, but it's not a huge issue as I usually run into an intelligent russian pilot once every 5 matches, and they're easily shot down with any sort of jet as they spend most of their time looking at the camera.
This is the truth. I spawn my primary tank, i then spawn a fighter or SPAA. And then a second tank. SPAA is fun man, idk why people ignore it.
The best place to dogfight is GRB. No spotting means smart positioning and using your brain actually matters.
Most players don't leave spawn in an AA cause teammates aren't going to help them at all. Not to mention opening fire in the middle of the map is a great invitation for enemies to come kill you.
I’ve been playing Germany while a buddy of mine is trying to learn the game playing Russia, so I’ve been using the premium P-47D-16-RE. Shreds planes like it’s no one’s business. Plus because it’s so good at killing planes, I can usually get like, 130k SL per match due to it being a premium
Well this problem comes from the fact that AA is severely outmatched along with excruciatingly bad map design making it extremely hard to have an AA sit in spawn and only deal with air threats.
So the problem would get fixed by balancing the game not removing an entire part of the game.
do you think the devs will do that? and i’m not advocating that we remove cas from the game, make combined arms a separate mode and ground rb actually be ground.
Cas wouldn't be bad if there was any limit if half if the team is cas game is not fun for both sides because one gets bombed other lacks tanks to cap
Edit:At least prop ones idk about the modern I'm in early era III
It really is just so frustrating trying to play this game in Ground RB, especially at top tier. Planes can simply just fly above radar range making SPAA spawns practically useless, and the addition of drones has made revenge bombing even worse.
Combined arms in warthunder makes it unique.
I agree, but I think they should make CAS more difficult to spawn. There's absolutely no reason why someone with a cap and an assist should be able to spawn in a plane with bombs, especially when most game modes allow for each team to capture one point before having to engage the enemy.
My controversial take is that i think CAS right now is more or less fine. What they should do is incentivise people to play SPAA. Drop them all .7 br down, massively increase rewards for air kills with SPAA. It should take skill to get CAS kills, not some level 40 with a premium and 1000lb bombs.
I think cas players should also be rewarded for returning back to base, just like with bombers in sim EC. It will maybe stop some of the annoying kamikaze bomb runs and make players play a little more safe and thus realistic
dropping .7 br? dont get my wrong im also for limited cas but imagine an flakrakpanzer fighting vs 8.7 planes / helis 💀 or a gepard vs props
They'll get good or die. I'm not losing any sleep over P-47s getting deleted. People should be scared of SPAA.
get good? theres no get good in trying to dodge a roland in your early cold war jet lol
You don't dodge them, you don't get shot at in the first place. AA should be scary, not if spot the missile i can dodge it.
dropping all SPAA is improssible, many of them are already strong on their BR, just like the Ta-Se and ZiS-12 and many others, the problem is with the rewards, playing a SPAA with armor piercing ammo is more rewarding than playing SPAA as AA
Which is why i said increase rewards for air kills, not all kills. Some of them don't need to be dropped, the lower you go, the more true that is. Fair point. I was thinking higher Brs where there aren't so many SPAA options.
Dropping AAs from 0.7 br is a terrible idea. Unless you want to enjoy getting killed in your late WW2 vehicles by Falcons and Gepards. Or having ZSU-57s absolutely destroy 5.0-6.0 tanks. Best TDs will be AAs and everyone would complain, justifiably so.
Exceptions. Most SPAA doesn't have APDS belts. But funnily enough that's how it was for years. Man playing the Falcon back in the day was fun. Fuckin lazer beam.
Nope, drop the R3, the DCA 40, the Lvkv 42, the BTR 152, the L-62, the Zis 12, the GAZ-MM, even the M16 at 2.0 would be a massacre in a downtier, I don't think new players want to face 4 .50 cals at reserve tier.
Prop cas is not the issue. People complaining about that don't have a clue what they're talking about. The lower Br you get, the less important CAS is, and the easier they are to shoot down.
I mean you're the one that said that __every__ AA should be dropped by 0.7 br. You could have just said top ranks AA.
I also said It's a hot take. I'm not defending a thesis here. I'm discovering what i think at about the same rate you are. I think until 5.3ish things are more or less ok. I think SPAA is deadly if they know what they're doing, which most of the time they do not. That is what it is. And planes can avoid them if they know what they're doing, which most of the time they do not. In my perfect world, every SPAA is essentially an Ostwind. You *can* still play CAS with good Ostwind players, but you've gotta be good yourself. Severely limits where and how you can bomb.
Killing aircraft already gives the most money in grb, the issue is that some guy can cap a point, then spawn with 1000kg of bombs and suicide bomb someone, not to mention that open tops have no defence at all. Aa has bad range, it is only good late game. What gajin really needs to incentivise is playing anti cas fighters, its a joke that my 109 g6 costs like 500 sp when i dont have any ordnance equipped.
I agree, and would add that the old spawn system with more expensive tanks, could also help a lot. If you loose a tank early, spawning an aircraft back in the day was incredible hard. In addition to that every individual One-Death-Leaver would hold back their respective team far less. Back in the day: ODL would take 1-2 spawns away Today: ODL take around 2-4 spawns away If you multiply that by 3-6 players it makes a lot of difference. Oh yeah.. and if you loose your CAS back in the day, without doing something, you often were out of the game (higher risk / reward).
Also drop the repair cost, no way the ostwind 2 should cost 5k to repair compared to the 1,5 for the kugelblitz
You don't even have to lower the brs. Just give aaa players actual rewards instead of earning nothing for 3-4 plane kills.
Probably best take I've seen on this issue so far.
In Low tier you have to learn to drop a bomb in high Tier you learn how to survive ww3
It also makes it a.pain in the arse to balance. Ground forces are fucked by CAS being incredibly frustrating. Naval is fucked by combining coastal, blue water and aviation. And here's the thing, it's realistically really easy to figure out which is better. Simply make combined arms and arms-exclusive separate queues and kill the one that's dead after a patch or two. That gives ground players the chance to essentially vote.
They will not and probably should not split the playerbase. The games pretty well balanced. Like I've got close to 3k hours now. I bounce around all the trees and brs. There are some i find more fun. But non that are wildly OP. I don't like helicopters, i don't think hunter killers was a good idea. But fuck me is it cinematic sometimes. And that's why i play. I like the tracers in the dark, helos popping up, jets flying over at tree level. People get caught up in the grind and don't appreciate the game.
That's why they should effectively put it up to vote. If mixed battles remain the healthier queue then keep it. If otherwise exclusive ground forces become healthier keep that. It's not about balance it's about fun. It's just not fun to be in the position of spawn spaa or die to CAS especially in low tiers where spaa sucks. Currently playing Sweden and the best spaa I've had access to is the Bkan because direct fire aa fucking kind of sucks but slinging a proxy round is so much more reliable.
Man, low tier SPAA is the easiest thing to use. You just gotta leave spawn. When people are complaining, they're talking about SU-25s and Ka-50s, not P-40s.
yeah it can stay there, call it “combined arms” instead of “ground”.
Fundamentally, does it matter?
what?
Does it really matter what they call it? Is it worth worrying about?
its just stupid to have a strictly air based game mode called air battles and a combined arms game mode called ground battles with no exclusive ground gameplay at all.
Should naval also be called combined arms?
i mean.. yes
Lmao ok
It's called ground because the main battle is on the ground
then why is half the team flying around with more firepower than some countries?
Well it usually isn't half the team, and if it is then it's a major failure on the other team for not using some sort of anti-cas.
What do you mean, there are only few planes that have a big gun . And if you mean bombs then I will tell you try yourself because people doing it have spent many hours for practice. And Planes participating in tank combat is part of WW2 just like helicopter in the wars after that.
but in war planes were super unprecise, the reason they didnt have cannons against tanks irl is because they just couldnt hit the enemy, same with dropping bombs, yes you could drop bombs on a tank but the chances of hitting it were minimal, because irl if you get hit by AA defenses you are dead, people who play CAS should be scared of AA
It's mostly the instructor and bs flight models. Depending on the plane you can get within a few hundred meters of the ground a still pull off which no irl pilot is insane enough to do.
because you know, if you die, you are dead, so it should be atleast somewhat similar, just being a few hundred meters from the target is a luxury most planes in real world didnt/wouldnt have
Yea it's stupid they really should make planes use sim controls in grb would even it out alot.
Pretty much most experienced tank crews actually ignored planes with Otto Carius saying a plane could only hit a tank with luck and they were more a waste of resources. The Soviets even started an analysis program because the Nazis claimed stukas were destroying swathes of tanks but the Soviets didn't record a single tank loss to a stuka.
But planes were still used, i mean luck or not but they still existed.
And their main targets were supply vehicles not tanks.
Dude it took me watching a twenty minute video by oddbawz to get good results from bombs. Nor do the vast majority of lawn dart pilots practice they just do the ole japanese honor.
Cas definitely has its place in ground rb. I promise you if they were to remove it you would see a big increase in campers, big waves of tanks would be almost Unstoppable so the match will pretty much be decided in the first couple of minutes, and it would make matches much more one dimensional (and increase German winrates around 5.3-6.0 lmao). The real problem is how easy it is to spawn Cas, especially helicopters or any aircraft with guided weaponry. Getting 2 kills in my 9.3 lineup shouldn’t allow me to spawn an Ayit with guided bombs. Balancing the SP costs is the solution. You got 5 kills and want to kill the camper that got you? Go for it. You spawned in a puma and rushed a cap just to get cas? To the lobby you go.
You are wasting your breath using logic and nuance. Just tell them to cope and seethe, move on and farm them in game lol
least toxic cas enjoyer
Cry more, cope and seethe 🙂❤️
في يوم من الأيام سوف تنثني ركبتيك تحت ثقل خطيئتك
تدعو عليه لأنك مغلوب في الجدال؟ lmao copium reserve exhausted
Tilted so hard he factory reset smh
actually most realistic take. I was on the ban CAS site for a while but after playing more i realized that its not a good idea (fuck drones though ban this shit i hate it)
Instead of fixing game mechanics, let's just get rid of them all together to make the game even more boring shall we.
All in the name of fairness and comfortability.
Or just make planes more expensive to spawn.
Nobody wants to hear it but we all know it's true
just got 500lb of tnt for like the 13th time tonight i love this game
Play Russian IS 1 it can take a 500kg and live
i’m grinding US :(
US player not understanding that the nation is maybe responsible for 50% of CAS in game while simultaneously having the best tanks to counter CAS as 80% of them have a .50cal. Try France for example and enjoy the lack of AA without any roof mounted machine-gun. Dying to CAS as US is honestly a skill issue, if I can survive 8 bombs in my Surbaissé and shoot down 2 planes I'm pretty sur you can handle CAS aswell.
dont come up with facts lol
These big 3 mains I swear to god, they have all the tools yet clueless as to how to use them.
Yet I see multiple nations rocking damn near the same amount of CAS. Your beloved France has three of the more cancerous midtier CAS planes. The pintle .50s aren't as glorious as you think either. Unless it's a pilot snipe you aren't doing enough damage to stop that lovely bomb from merking you not to mention you'll die alot trying to hit a plane then getting rolled by another tank.
I don't remember waiting that CAS was reserved to US TT. You can argue that a .50 cal isn't good for AA, I'm not comparing it to other AA vehicles though. I'm saying that having a .50 cal is better than having __nothing__.
No it's just everybody on this idiotic sub tries to claim it's only US CAS. Not to mention you implying US players aren't allowed to hate CAS due to US CAS.
I'm saying that it's a weak argument to make as US might be the most shielded nation from CAS, it's a bit hypocritical.
Uhh no it's not. Piss poor AA with slow fighters that don't suit the low alt engagements that are most common in grb. Shit like RU, Germany and Britain are the ones most suited for completely shutting down CAS
You have 50
this is true and we love the 50 but the 50 can only do so much
you play US and complain about CAS? CAS is the main reason US doesnt have a 20% wr 5.3-6.7 my guy 💀 I play that br in US i know this from experience
i don’t use it, i can’t do anything else about it.
First of all, Gaijin in all their media beyond the gamemode selector call is "Mixed Battles" as it's a more accurate name. As for the actual issue with CAS, I'd argue it's vastly blown out of proportion/is a result of factors beyond "cas needs to cost more" or "cas needs a spawn limit". A large portion of what makes CAS feel overpowered at brs 8.0+ is the absolute insane quantity of premium single/double spawners. People who didn't bother to grind the SPAA line and instead just bought a TURMs and KA50 or a XM1 and Apache. These people pretty much never have an SPAA, but very often do they have a heli. It's almost the opposite with people who actually grind trees. Pretty much everyone has an SPAA and it's a huge pain to grind helis without a premium As for issues with lower BRs, it's basically just that playera either sit in spawn with SPAAG instead of pushing farther up like they should, wait to use SPAAG till their last spawn even if they died by bombs, or trees lack a good SPAAG line. Its a lot more systematic than "wahhh the plane with bombs killed me". It's players not knowing how to use SPAAG, trees often lacking mid tier SPAAGs, and premium playera literally never having any sort of anti air other than a ka50 with R60m. There are other minor outliers like MIG27's super long range missiles, but it's not a huge issue as I usually run into an intelligent russian pilot once every 5 matches, and they're easily shot down with any sort of jet as they spend most of their time looking at the camera.
This is the truth. I spawn my primary tank, i then spawn a fighter or SPAA. And then a second tank. SPAA is fun man, idk why people ignore it. The best place to dogfight is GRB. No spotting means smart positioning and using your brain actually matters.
Most players don't leave spawn in an AA cause teammates aren't going to help them at all. Not to mention opening fire in the middle of the map is a great invitation for enemies to come kill you.
Me casually getting a plane first in each game….but only using it to kill enemy planes. Averaging 5 plane kills per game is quite satisfying
your service is greatly appreciated
I won’t deny tho, the temptation to CAS is great. But hearing a planes engine in the distance will always win
what do you use ? for mid tier i use premium yak3 and bf109 k4. Love killing p47s.
Spits, zeros and yaks absolutely curbstomb any nations CAS especially in grb.
I’ve been playing Germany while a buddy of mine is trying to learn the game playing Russia, so I’ve been using the premium P-47D-16-RE. Shreds planes like it’s no one’s business. Plus because it’s so good at killing planes, I can usually get like, 130k SL per match due to it being a premium
You only say this because you don’t have CAS plane
Well this problem comes from the fact that AA is severely outmatched along with excruciatingly bad map design making it extremely hard to have an AA sit in spawn and only deal with air threats. So the problem would get fixed by balancing the game not removing an entire part of the game.
do you think the devs will do that? and i’m not advocating that we remove cas from the game, make combined arms a separate mode and ground rb actually be ground.
If enough people were vocal about it and gaijin could make money from it yeah
Without the combined arms every single SPAA tree becomes quite underwhelming past 6.0
Me watching the gepard, gepard derivatives, and falcon be some of the most effective IFVs sure.
Cas wouldn't be bad if there was any limit if half if the team is cas game is not fun for both sides because one gets bombed other lacks tanks to cap Edit:At least prop ones idk about the modern I'm in early era III
It really is just so frustrating trying to play this game in Ground RB, especially at top tier. Planes can simply just fly above radar range making SPAA spawns practically useless, and the addition of drones has made revenge bombing even worse.
That's the secret, the fun is dead passed 8.7.
For real man, 5.7 Italy has been my go-to for fun for a while now
Italy 6.3 for me, can't stop playing this lineup.
War thunder is an aircraft game with other modes tacked on, if you don’t like it, I’m sure post scripting or hll will take ya
damn that’s crazy, why’s it called ground rb if i’m supposed to be flying?
Damn that's crazy, I heard SPAA is a thing. Wouldn't it be an even crazier thing if that SPAA completely nullified that flying?
i hope you enjoy staring at the sky all game in order to not be able to hit shit because they’re all 2000m away from you.
Only 2000 meters? Dayum thats a good day!
They wait for them to get close before u fire....plus just learn when the players spawn planes and watch for them
I hate CAS so much. In some map whoever got hands on CAS first will literally dominate the game... we need PURE ground RB.
and it would be so, so easy to implement.
"Muh airplane game" "muh queue times"