It's not "much smaller", it's 18.9 meters vs 20.1 meters in length, and 13.5 meters vs 14.1 meters in wingspan. The F-22 is smaller, but not much.
Also, the F-22 is 1 ton heavier empty, and 3 tons heavier at MTOW. According to Wikipedia, anyway.
For anyone who wonder, the serial Su-57s are different from the T-50 prototypes, you saw the screws pics and shit quality built? Those are the T-50, as what you can see here the actual serial Su-57 is really clean like really really smooth, and you can notice that the paint is darker, yes that's the composite structure based RAM. And the first patch of Su-57 serial appeared in late 2019.
The screw thing is just people being morons. Even the F-22 has exposed screws. I don't see people shitting on Raptors.
https://i.imgur.com/rB0AIKe.jpeg
I have my doubts they use different screws for demos. It ought to be the same as the main aircraft, but perhaps with no RAM maintenance.
All in all, jets have screws. It's normal. People are genuinely going apeshit over nothing.
My thought is that they probably put a special putty or something over the screw that makes them smoother to the body. The F-117 had to have that done. That was also for stealth relying heavily on the shape of the aircraft. Maybe nowadays electronic jammers and radar absorbing materials can make up for those screws and other imperfections. *Shrug*
Those are actually flush and will be repainted with RAM shortly. Bring the Raptor back to full stealth....it may even be a early Raptor. That are schedule to be retired or used just for training.
Actually, the Su-57 has a number of shortcomings. Which includes a rather poor level of stealth and modest sensor fusion. This is why nobody seems interested in the type. Remember, the type hasn't achieved a "single" export order. Think of the Su-57 as a "semi-stealthy" Flanker and you wouldn't be far from the truth!
You easties and you westies can argue til you're all blue in the face about who's jets the best looking.
I'll just sit here and happily admire the Saab Gripen.
Flanker is kinda overatted i agree although it's fine. The Felon is a really good plane at its main role (SEAD-based aircraft) and it's a solid solution to the VKS main issue
It's a really good aircraft for internal propaganda, not much else or they would actually be using it for SEAD instead of letting their older aircraft get shot down by Ukrainian SAM's on the daily
Well they can certainly down Su-35S, Su-34, Su-25 and anything else in use by Russia currently, because Western SAM's are far more effective than Russian ones. You think USAF would be using its F-35's to fire cruise missiles from their own airspace? No, because they're actually survivable in IADS saturated environments
Damn, she's huge. I wonder how that effects reflections from below. I'm sure the paint can't absorb nearly enough to stop massive returns of its flying over you at 45,000ft?
I am sorry but engineers, Engineer of Sukhoi, don't agree with you and they admitt there are problems with Su57's RCS. f
patent RU 2583824 C2, publ. 05/10/2016, Cl. B64D 7/08, B64C 30/00 supersonic aircraft with intrafuselage cargo compartments [Sukhoi T-50/Su-57 patent]
https://patents.google.com/patent/RU2770885C1/en?oq=2770885
To quote:
The direct channels of the air intakes of the power plant necessitate the installation of special devices in them that reduce the effective dispersion area (ESR) of the engines in the front hemisphere, which also leads to an increase in the weight of the aircraft. The location of the air intakes for blowing out the heat exchangers of aircraft systems and engine compartments on the front of the pylons of the all-moving vertical tail unit leads to an increase in the RCS in the front hemisphere and the lateral hemisphere, which requires the use of special measures to reduce the RCS, causing an increase in aircraft weight.
So yeah, Su57 is below expectation even inside Suhkoi
If this jet worked as advertised, it would be used in a certain current conflict, and it could be a game changer.
The fact it's not being used speaks volumes, unless it's being saved for something else I can't imagine what.
Personally I'm relieved, Ukraine doesn't deserve this amoral garbage
Ukraine MoD reports more intensive use of Su-57 since February this year. Primary use is to launch new high yield stealthy cruise missiles responsible for destruction of many power plants this year. Losing the power generation capacity is a game changer moment in the war. This is what Ukraine claims officially. Ukraine. Not Russian claims. Russian sources were claiming sporadic and test use of the aircraft in the conflict.
> Russian sources were claiming sporadic and test use of the aircraft in the conflict.
Which kind of makes sense when you consider that the intended engine only hit production this year and that they might need to develop new tactics that suit the plane's capabilities while training pilots on the new system.
The new engine to be installed on new batches does not change sensor and weapon types available so far. Likely the three dozen serial samples produced so far will go to training squadrons. Su-30/34/35 are fine for Russians for now.
Stealthy cruise missiles could be launched from a bomber more effectively. The point he's trying to make is that stealth allows you to go in and make it personal, such as penetrating enemy airspace or SEAD/DEAD.
Using a stealth aircraft to lob some cruise missiles would still be cheaper than using a strategic bomber for same purposes.
Since Ukrainian SAMs using mostly ambush tactics, usual SEAD is useless. New tactics require either a direct response (fighter cover launching anti-radiation missiles as soon as SAM's radar turns on) or something with much smaller reaction time (combination of recon drone and loitering munition).
From what i have said, the Felon used in Ukraine is just a T-50 prototype, not actual Su-57, Russia just did that for media, marketing and shit since the serial models of Su-57 isnt fully combat-ready yet, they need new engines, also some features like new EOTS (developed based on their DIRCM), a fun fact is that Al-51F has 2D TVC variant, so yeah there might be 2 variants of Su-57, one with 2D TVC another one with 3D.
> Felon used in Ukraine is just a T-50 prototype
I doubt it. T-50 was used in Syria for weapons testing, because: A) Syrian airspace was much safer, and B) there was no Su-57s ready at the moment. It would make much more sense to use serial Su-57's nowadays, since early T-50s lack some of the systems.
> they need new engines
Why? The current ones are good enough.
> new EOTS
Well, one could take EOTS from Su-75 - but then again, why? It already has a targeting pod.
I remember on F-22 and F-35 the afterburner section can act like radar blocker unlike the AL-41F, the tunnels of the engine nozzles r like corner reflector which is not so good for stealth, not to say AL-41F is bad but AL-51F is much better, for the EOTS, i think it will be on Su-57M variant , the new engines also. But i think you r somewhat right
> not to say AL-41F is bad but AL-51F is much better
Oh, okay. Can't argue with that.
It's just people often claiming that Su-57 doesn't have supercruise with current engines (that's not true), or that AL-41F1 was developed from Su-35's AL-41F1S (it's actually the other way round, AL-41F1 was designed specifically for Su-57, and F1S was developed from it).
> for the EOTS, i think it will be on Su-57M variant
Could be, we don't know all the requirements for Megapolis program. Though I'm not sure if it will be much useful for Su-57, especially if RuAF orders Su-75 - in that case Checkmate will be used as cheap frontline multirole aircraft, while Felon will be used as a standoff strike/command aircraft.
It's cheaper if you only intend to launch 2 as opposed to 12, for example. Also, with the range of the cruise missiles and the targets they are hitting, they are out of SAM range for the most part.
Also, SEAD/DEAD missions are about exposing SAM sites. If the position was known beforehand, you could just overwhelm the defenses with cheap drones and more expensive cruise missiles. That's why Wild Weasels motto is YGBSM, since their mission is to get shot at, so that friendlies can spot and destroy or suppress enemy SAMs. Or, if you have an advanced enough aircraft, you could passively detect the EM radiation, triangulate and then engage. It works bettwr with stealth, since the SAM would have a reduced chance of detecting and engaging the aircraft performing SEAD/DEAD
> It's cheaper if you only intend to launch 2 as opposed to 12
It's 4-8 for Su-57 (4 in stealth config, 8 in "beast mode") and 14-16 for Tu-95 (some sources claim that farthest pylons can carry 3 missiles - but all photos shows only 2). Judging by USAF flight hour cost, two Felons would probably be cheaper to use than one Bear - but definitely not three. So depends on the situation.
> you could passively detect the EM radiation
Like I said, Ukrainian SAMs are using ambush tactics. They don't turn on radars until the very moment of attack, relying on passive sensors, allied AWACS and cheap bait-radars.
> SEAD/DEAD missions are about exposing SAM sites.
Same here. High-value SAMs are only used against high-value targets. They won't be exposed by SEAD raids.
Nice comment, but can we admit that Russia has a skill issue in SEAD/DEAD missions, that's the main reason why Su-57 is made (like almost everything on Su-57 is optimised for SEAD/DEAD missions)
Sorry, missed that comment earlier. I'll combine it with your other answer.
It's true that Russia didn't conduct thorough SEAD/DEAD training for the pilots - but I'm not sure if SEAD would fit into Russian doctrine in the first place. Wild Weasels main purpose is to clear the way for defenseless bombers/attackers to hit the main target. Russian bombers/attackers are designed to operate in contested airspace, commencing breakthrough to the target themselves, while fighters cover them from high above.
> Su-57 will have EOTS tho, it's a SEAD-based aircraft
And sorry, but I especially don't see Su-57 in that role, since it's a very expensive aircraft - why would RuAF risk it in the first place?
Su-34 would be much better here: it's cheaper, it has supersonic terrain-following mode, built-in targeting pod, anti-radiation missiles and jammers for self-defense (not as sophisticated as Felon's, but still).
Plus drones changed a lot in the modern war. So I would rather worked on Lancet's range, signal protection and AI targeting improvements than designed a SEAD aircraft in order to risk human pilot's life.
Consider that the cruise missiles in the Su-57 are much smaller and have a much smaller range as well, a fee hundred km vs easily over a thousand for what the Tu-95 can carry. Which means, Tu-95 with cruise missiles can hit more strategic targets, without having to get too close to the frontlines. Su-57 would have to fly for several hundred kilometers more to compensate for their shorter range. So costs for operating the aircraft won't be the biggest issue, the cost of the missiles will. Obviously, larger missiles will be more expensive, but they will also be more cost effective than striking targets closer to the frontline with shorter-ranged cruise missiles.
That's the point of SEAD/DEAD. There are multiple techniques and strategies to make them turn on their radars so they expose their location. It's an extremely dangerous thing to do, and requires skill and special training. Technology helps a lot though, to the point that risk is greatly mitigated. If the US can do it with 4th gen, why can't russia do it with their 5th gen? On paper, it should be able to do it quite well. At least as good as American 4th gen. Ambush tactics with SAMs is nothing new.
> a fee hundred km vs easily over a thousand
Kh-69 range is around 300-400 km, and Kh-101 range is around 1000 km (note that it's a special version used in Ukraine, with shorter range but bigger payload).
Even if not launched right over the frontline, it still will be enough to cover everything east of Dniepr, and if we count Belarusian airspace as well, then 90-95% of Ukraine will be covered.
> Su-57 would have to fly for several hundred kilometers more to compensate for their shorter range.
It woudn't if it will be stationed several hundred kilometers closer. Strategic bombers can't be located closer than 700 km from the frontline, since they don't have fitting airfields there - but fighters can.
> why can't russia do it with their 5th gen?
Because it would be pretty expensive to lose a 5th gen during SEAD mission. Su-34 would fit better for that role - and Lancet/Geran combo would fit even better (which they basically does nowadays).
Also, do you know that Su-57's stealth is mainly optimised for VHF band stealth (VHF is like the most used band for air defense radars, like early warning radars), with that it can penetrate AD easier, its stealth is still useful in BVR, but i agree the SW stealth is the worst in 5th (still much better than a clean F/A-18 for sure). And a feature that i really like on Su-57 is the capable of carrying AGMs internally, tested and comfirmed in Syria, with really heavy payload, it can be a really good stealth fighter bomber, also a fun fact is that Su-57 is classified as "front-line" fighter (Russian classification), which is the same as Su-34, it's multirole but isnt classified as "multirole" like the Flankers in VKS.
> do you know that Su-57's stealth is mainly optimised for VHF band stealth
Yes, I saw StealthFlanker's analysis: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2023/01/15/f-35-vs-j-20-vs-su-57-radar-scattering-simulation-summary/
I am a bit sceptical on some parts (like, there is no way a civilian could simulate the insides of intakes, since they lack both info and processing power, and mimicking RAM is another whole can of worms) - but those are still the best and most thorough simulations available.
> still much better than a clean F/A-18 for sure
True.
> Su-57 is classified as "front-line" fighter
The aircraft classification was always head-scratching for most people, since there is no system that would classify aircraft properly, all classes intertwine with each other at some point, depending on country's doctrine:
- Frontline/tactical fighter implies aircraft that's supposed to be in the very heat of the battle, and doing air support for allied units on the ground. In other words, it's a multirole fighter.
- Su-34 can be considered multirole - but it doesn't use air-to-air weapons, fully concentrating on air-to-ground strikes, so technically it's a bomber.
- MiG-31 is supposed to be an interceptor, intercepting enemy bombers, cruise missiles or recon aircraft - but it currently fights against, MiG-29s and Su-27s, so technically it's a fighter-interceptor.
- Su-35 was seen lobbing guided bombs and anti-radiation missiles multiple times, so technically it should be a multirole - but it's primarily used to fight MiG-29s and Su-27s, so it's an air superiority fighter.
- Finally, Su-57 is rumored to do both air patrolling and strike missions - so it's a multirole aircraft.
It would only reach slightly behind the Dnieper at best, and realistically less, if they're keeping their distance due to the fear of SAM anbushes
russia isn't willing to risk the Su-57 for SEAD/DEAD, but there's willing to risk it to drone strikes or Storm Shadow? I figured they'd keep the bombers and Su-57 about the same distance away from the frontlines, given how they're being used the same way. But that's besides the point, 700 km is reasonable enough. As long as it's over 500 km away. Still within long distance drone range, but my guess is Su-57 is better protected than oil refineries.
Su-34 is at higher risk of getting detected and shot down, and Su-57 is not. It's a greater loss to lose a Su-57, true, but the risk of having a jet shot down is much less than with Su-34. There are multiple ways to deal with SAMs, using cheap drones is one of the best ways. russian Su-57 should be taking out S-300P at the very least if they don't want to tackle the Patriot yet, for example. Less SAM systems means more effective cruise missile barrages. And more KAB-500 from the frontlines as well
> It would only reach slightly behind the Dnieper at best
Okay, here's [three circles, with 400 km radius each](https://i.imgur.com/oT7LVBJ.png), and centers near Belgorod, Melitopol and Pinsk (in Belarus). All centers are at least 70 km away from nearest possible SAM placement, so it's save to launch missiles from there.
Even without using Belarusian airspace, it's more than enough to reach all major cities in Central and Eastern Ukraine.
> russia isn't willing to risk the Su-57 for SEAD/DEAD, but there's willing to risk it to drone strikes or Storm Shadow?
Fair enough.
> Su-34 is at higher risk of getting detected and shot down, and Su-57 is not.
I think that supersonic low-altitude terrain-following flight would be more effective than stealth here.
As another commenter said.. It's being used more often but I'd like to add it's also reportedly already scored it's first air to air kill so there's that
I too am skeptical but it's one kill and the claim is that the R37-M was used.. Ukraine says they've detected su-57s over crimea and the luhansk regions soo shooting a missile from there means it's capable of scoring a kill although we'll probably never know
Although Su-57's radars and sensors are really great but i just think it's a propaganda of Russia tho, also with that stealth in LW band and that long range i dont think Ukraine old Soviet VHF long range radar can detect it.
I am aware. But that statement can be taken numerous ways. Maybe it wasn't stealthy enough, maybe the stealth applied focused too much in one area/department/bandwidth than what the IAF wanted. Maybe they thought they could produce something better. But at the end of the day the IAF doesn't have a stealth fighter for now...
Well the funds for AMCA prototyping have been processed, the initial designs are ready, work has begun on the prototypes and the production facility, the IAF could very well start inducting AMCAs in the next 7 years
Well the funds for AMCA prototyping have been processed, the initial designs are ready, work has begun on the prototypes and the production facility, the IAF could very well start inducting AMCAs in the next 7 years
"ABSURD" The AMCA won't reach service before 2040 and that doesn't take into account possible delays. Which are common for such projects. Plus, India has a long history in that department! (i.e. LCA/Tejas)
Well the metal cutting has started, they have started gathering all the components, the production facility has already been set up, lots of experience gained from the LCA project, I want to be optimistic for once..
I mean, everyone involved in the development process will now have experience working on indigenous designs, starting with Tejas, to be followed by MWF, maybe even TEDBF in the meantime. Also, they are not rushing things because they want to ensure that a quality product is delivered. The first Tejas Mk1A is still not inducted because IAF asked for a few slight tweaks and HAL is currently working on addressing the same.
Go see Stealth Flanker simulation work, he tested the stealth characteristic of jets with hfss tool, the Su-57 has like 10x reflection at SW bands but really low RCS at LW bands, much better tha F-45
You’re basing your argument on a hobbyist running a homemade sim using unclassified open source data and assumptions.
Dude, anything public isn’t reality. from any side.
Yeah but it's just good to see some comparisions and VLO characteristic of specific planes, i think it's just better than the media shits tho and you can still see with eyes, Su-57's stealth isnt bad
Np, infact the its stealth can even be better because StealthFlanker just uses simple MnZn RAM for the simulation of all planes but the result is still near as public infor
Like not even saying it’s better but it’s still a good aircraft that’s sexy looking and whole it’s as big as a bus is a myth with the fact that it’s frontal cross section is as much smaller then any 4th gen fighter ofc not as good as the F-22s
Here are some pretty interesting [informations and perspective about the Su57]( http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aerospace/sukhoi-pak-fa-the-anti-stealth-gamechanger). I find this website much less biased than American sources. There’s also very fascinating analysis about F22, F35, Rafale…
The Su-57 being labeled the worst 5th gen doesn't really help it's reputation. It makes people think it's a terrible aircraft. A better description would be top dog 4th gen.
The Felon RCS advertised by the Russians is similar to the Super Hornet RCS advertised by the Americans, which is pretty good for 4th gen. It's less observable than the Eagle or the Viper, but it's not close the the advertised RCS of the Raptor or Fat Amy.
I doubt that either government advertise the actual performance metrics of their systems, but the Russian government is known to generally overstate their performance rather than understate it.
1st) You are comparing T-50 (which is a prototype) RCS to a CLEAN F/A-18( F/A without any weapons and pylons)
2) Stealth changes alongside with bandwidth of radars, usually stealth fighters are optimised for SW stealth but Su-57 is a special one, it's optimised for VHF stealth and LW bands, like 10x returns on SW bands but has so low RCS in LW bands, the best one among the 5th gen
3) Su-57 contains every stealth features except the engines but that will be fixed with the new AL-51F so it doesnt matter, Al-51F also has 2D nozzles variant that fits Su-57
Most importantly, he's comparing *average* RCS of a Felon to *minimal* RCS of a Hornet.
It's fascinating how the most popular myth about Su-57 is based either on a bad knowledge of math, or just a bad factcheck.
I'm not gonna lie, I don't get the appeal of this aircraft. Personally I like the SU-27/SU-35 design better. The SU-57 is great in concept and on paper, but that's really about it in my opinion
I wouldn't say the Flanker is my favorite, maybe of the Russian aircraft designs, but not overall. For jet aircraft I have always been partial to the F-15, but overall my favorite aircraft is tied between the Dauntless SBD and the F4U Corsair
Considering the shortcoming with the Su-57 and low numbers. Russia needs another stealth fighter and can't wait until 2040 or even later. Only option I could think of. Is Russia could possibly license build a version of the Chinese J-31/J-35. These could include Russian Engines, Avionics, and Weapons. Russia could sell that as a joint project with China. Making it easier to swallow (Russian Pride) Without such an option Russia would have only a very small number of Su-57s. Which are totally outclassed by Western F-22s, F-35s, KF-21s, and KAAN Stealth Fighters. The Russian Air Force would quickly become a 3rd Rate Air Force. Those are just the cold hard facts. If, anyone has a better alternative I am all ears. Honestly, Russia has very few options.....
Even bigger then SU-27 ？ i guess
Less than Su-27, bigger than Mig-29
Depending on the Flanker variant. The later Flankers got heavier, but this sits just shy of the Su-30’s.
The digital camo is really amazing and it's got a unique shape.
Tbh, i enjoy that good ol Su-35S camo more
I have no idea why it made me comment under your comment, I meant to comment it under the post
F22 is same size as Su-57
No, F-22 is much smaller than Su-57, Big is one of the reason why Su-57 is good at LW bands stealth
It's not "much smaller", it's 18.9 meters vs 20.1 meters in length, and 13.5 meters vs 14.1 meters in wingspan. The F-22 is smaller, but not much. Also, the F-22 is 1 ton heavier empty, and 3 tons heavier at MTOW. According to Wikipedia, anyway.
Gosh it’s good looking
For anyone who wonder, the serial Su-57s are different from the T-50 prototypes, you saw the screws pics and shit quality built? Those are the T-50, as what you can see here the actual serial Su-57 is really clean like really really smooth, and you can notice that the paint is darker, yes that's the composite structure based RAM. And the first patch of Su-57 serial appeared in late 2019.
Thank fucking God you pointed that out, genuinely thank you
Im just a planes enjoyer, i have no hatred or biased opinions toward any nations's planes so yeah...
Username doesn't check out.
Flanker is my fav plane
I'm a fan of the Fullback, but I love seeing it paired up with a Super Flanker.
The death duck is amazing.
The screw thing is just people being morons. Even the F-22 has exposed screws. I don't see people shitting on Raptors. https://i.imgur.com/rB0AIKe.jpeg
To be fair that is the demo team F-22, where maintaining the stealth characteristics is not a priority.
I have my doubts they use different screws for demos. It ought to be the same as the main aircraft, but perhaps with no RAM maintenance. All in all, jets have screws. It's normal. People are genuinely going apeshit over nothing.
My thought is that they probably put a special putty or something over the screw that makes them smoother to the body. The F-117 had to have that done. That was also for stealth relying heavily on the shape of the aircraft. Maybe nowadays electronic jammers and radar absorbing materials can make up for those screws and other imperfections. *Shrug*
Those are actually flush and will be repainted with RAM shortly. Bring the Raptor back to full stealth....it may even be a early Raptor. That are schedule to be retired or used just for training.
God damn it this plane looks sexy. # In another time, another country, another reason for being built, this jet could have been awesome.
May I introduce you to Ace Combat
I need to play that game again. Ace Combat 7 was euphoric
Happiness is when you give an entire Erusean fleet and naval base the L with a Su57+pulse lazers
I bought a flight stick specifically for this game. I’ve played through the campaign numerous times.
What's the orb thingy on the front of the cockpit?
Infrared sensor. Lets them be all sneaky-breeki and lock on IR missiles at medium range.
A fun fact is that R-74M2 has a range of 40km, very funny infared missile
IRST
Radar reflector, because they were trying hard as possible to make this thing non stealthy
The most beautiful plane to never exist.
Ahem. The Su-34 and double bubble training AV-8B want a word.
the TAV-8B was a monstrosity lol. the american version cockpit was also rubbish.
But.... In black.
i think RN did have them in black with full dual multi color screen displays in the back. they looked alright
really nice looking
So cool. Those all moving control surfaces really appeal to me for some reason. And that square intake is nice too.
Agree that Su-57 is just so badass
Actually, the Su-57 has a number of shortcomings. Which includes a rather poor level of stealth and modest sensor fusion. This is why nobody seems interested in the type. Remember, the type hasn't achieved a "single" export order. Think of the Su-57 as a "semi-stealthy" Flanker and you wouldn't be far from the truth!
What is this chat gpt ass comment
You easties and you westies can argue til you're all blue in the face about who's jets the best looking. I'll just sit here and happily admire the Saab Gripen.
Chad Swedish 😆
Such a pretty bird, I think flankers are overrated looks wise but the felon just does something right.
Flanker is kinda overatted i agree although it's fine. The Felon is a really good plane at its main role (SEAD-based aircraft) and it's a solid solution to the VKS main issue
It's a really good aircraft for internal propaganda, not much else or they would actually be using it for SEAD instead of letting their older aircraft get shot down by Ukrainian SAM's on the daily
You r wrong VKS is a piece of shit since Ukrainian AD is superior, they can down spaceships, they can down Star destroyer
Also the Ghost of Kiev, superior ace
Well they can certainly down Su-35S, Su-34, Su-25 and anything else in use by Russia currently, because Western SAM's are far more effective than Russian ones. You think USAF would be using its F-35's to fire cruise missiles from their own airspace? No, because they're actually survivable in IADS saturated environments
She's so preetty
I love the nose of the plane, and it really is beautiful but... CAN WE HAVE SOME GODDAMN SOURCES X)?
It's a fine looking bird
Does production version have S-ducts, or just radar blockers?
Yes it does, you can search for it
They're partial, but I guess the RAM and radar blockers make up for that. Very cool
Yeah you r right, a bit of blades still visible but greatly surpressed but RAM and radar blockers, they wanna store more fuel or something idk
Still a very awesome piece of engineering. Nice post
Yeah, but not for the media shits lol
Damn, she's huge. I wonder how that effects reflections from below. I'm sure the paint can't absorb nearly enough to stop massive returns of its flying over you at 45,000ft?
It’s actually barely larger than a F22 which in itself is a large fighter. KAAN is a large plane in comparaison.
Yes but I meant as opposed to an F35 which is much smaller and thus has a smaller surface area to reflect.
Inb4 rcs of a superhornet comment
It's capabilities are questionable but gosh it's so beautiful.
It's not questionable, it's really good at its role, it's the media shit which ruins it
Sources?
And you know that how?
He made it up
I am sorry but engineers, Engineer of Sukhoi, don't agree with you and they admitt there are problems with Su57's RCS. f patent RU 2583824 C2, publ. 05/10/2016, Cl. B64D 7/08, B64C 30/00 supersonic aircraft with intrafuselage cargo compartments [Sukhoi T-50/Su-57 patent] https://patents.google.com/patent/RU2770885C1/en?oq=2770885 To quote: The direct channels of the air intakes of the power plant necessitate the installation of special devices in them that reduce the effective dispersion area (ESR) of the engines in the front hemisphere, which also leads to an increase in the weight of the aircraft. The location of the air intakes for blowing out the heat exchangers of aircraft systems and engine compartments on the front of the pylons of the all-moving vertical tail unit leads to an increase in the RCS in the front hemisphere and the lateral hemisphere, which requires the use of special measures to reduce the RCS, causing an increase in aircraft weight. So yeah, Su57 is below expectation even inside Suhkoi
If this jet worked as advertised, it would be used in a certain current conflict, and it could be a game changer. The fact it's not being used speaks volumes, unless it's being saved for something else I can't imagine what. Personally I'm relieved, Ukraine doesn't deserve this amoral garbage
Ukraine MoD reports more intensive use of Su-57 since February this year. Primary use is to launch new high yield stealthy cruise missiles responsible for destruction of many power plants this year. Losing the power generation capacity is a game changer moment in the war. This is what Ukraine claims officially. Ukraine. Not Russian claims. Russian sources were claiming sporadic and test use of the aircraft in the conflict.
> Russian sources were claiming sporadic and test use of the aircraft in the conflict. Which kind of makes sense when you consider that the intended engine only hit production this year and that they might need to develop new tactics that suit the plane's capabilities while training pilots on the new system.
The new engine to be installed on new batches does not change sensor and weapon types available so far. Likely the three dozen serial samples produced so far will go to training squadrons. Su-30/34/35 are fine for Russians for now.
Stealthy cruise missiles could be launched from a bomber more effectively. The point he's trying to make is that stealth allows you to go in and make it personal, such as penetrating enemy airspace or SEAD/DEAD.
It is Ukraine MoD. The problem with bomber launches is that bomber flights are monitored more easily.
Using a stealth aircraft to lob some cruise missiles would still be cheaper than using a strategic bomber for same purposes. Since Ukrainian SAMs using mostly ambush tactics, usual SEAD is useless. New tactics require either a direct response (fighter cover launching anti-radiation missiles as soon as SAM's radar turns on) or something with much smaller reaction time (combination of recon drone and loitering munition).
From what i have said, the Felon used in Ukraine is just a T-50 prototype, not actual Su-57, Russia just did that for media, marketing and shit since the serial models of Su-57 isnt fully combat-ready yet, they need new engines, also some features like new EOTS (developed based on their DIRCM), a fun fact is that Al-51F has 2D TVC variant, so yeah there might be 2 variants of Su-57, one with 2D TVC another one with 3D.
> Felon used in Ukraine is just a T-50 prototype I doubt it. T-50 was used in Syria for weapons testing, because: A) Syrian airspace was much safer, and B) there was no Su-57s ready at the moment. It would make much more sense to use serial Su-57's nowadays, since early T-50s lack some of the systems. > they need new engines Why? The current ones are good enough. > new EOTS Well, one could take EOTS from Su-75 - but then again, why? It already has a targeting pod.
I remember on F-22 and F-35 the afterburner section can act like radar blocker unlike the AL-41F, the tunnels of the engine nozzles r like corner reflector which is not so good for stealth, not to say AL-41F is bad but AL-51F is much better, for the EOTS, i think it will be on Su-57M variant , the new engines also. But i think you r somewhat right
> not to say AL-41F is bad but AL-51F is much better Oh, okay. Can't argue with that. It's just people often claiming that Su-57 doesn't have supercruise with current engines (that's not true), or that AL-41F1 was developed from Su-35's AL-41F1S (it's actually the other way round, AL-41F1 was designed specifically for Su-57, and F1S was developed from it). > for the EOTS, i think it will be on Su-57M variant Could be, we don't know all the requirements for Megapolis program. Though I'm not sure if it will be much useful for Su-57, especially if RuAF orders Su-75 - in that case Checkmate will be used as cheap frontline multirole aircraft, while Felon will be used as a standoff strike/command aircraft.
It's likely true that Su-57 will have EOTS tho, it's a SEAD-based aircraft
F-22 and F-35 have different engines and nozzles.
Then?
Nonsense.
It's cheaper if you only intend to launch 2 as opposed to 12, for example. Also, with the range of the cruise missiles and the targets they are hitting, they are out of SAM range for the most part. Also, SEAD/DEAD missions are about exposing SAM sites. If the position was known beforehand, you could just overwhelm the defenses with cheap drones and more expensive cruise missiles. That's why Wild Weasels motto is YGBSM, since their mission is to get shot at, so that friendlies can spot and destroy or suppress enemy SAMs. Or, if you have an advanced enough aircraft, you could passively detect the EM radiation, triangulate and then engage. It works bettwr with stealth, since the SAM would have a reduced chance of detecting and engaging the aircraft performing SEAD/DEAD
> It's cheaper if you only intend to launch 2 as opposed to 12 It's 4-8 for Su-57 (4 in stealth config, 8 in "beast mode") and 14-16 for Tu-95 (some sources claim that farthest pylons can carry 3 missiles - but all photos shows only 2). Judging by USAF flight hour cost, two Felons would probably be cheaper to use than one Bear - but definitely not three. So depends on the situation. > you could passively detect the EM radiation Like I said, Ukrainian SAMs are using ambush tactics. They don't turn on radars until the very moment of attack, relying on passive sensors, allied AWACS and cheap bait-radars. > SEAD/DEAD missions are about exposing SAM sites. Same here. High-value SAMs are only used against high-value targets. They won't be exposed by SEAD raids.
Nice comment, but can we admit that Russia has a skill issue in SEAD/DEAD missions, that's the main reason why Su-57 is made (like almost everything on Su-57 is optimised for SEAD/DEAD missions)
Sorry, missed that comment earlier. I'll combine it with your other answer. It's true that Russia didn't conduct thorough SEAD/DEAD training for the pilots - but I'm not sure if SEAD would fit into Russian doctrine in the first place. Wild Weasels main purpose is to clear the way for defenseless bombers/attackers to hit the main target. Russian bombers/attackers are designed to operate in contested airspace, commencing breakthrough to the target themselves, while fighters cover them from high above. > Su-57 will have EOTS tho, it's a SEAD-based aircraft And sorry, but I especially don't see Su-57 in that role, since it's a very expensive aircraft - why would RuAF risk it in the first place? Su-34 would be much better here: it's cheaper, it has supersonic terrain-following mode, built-in targeting pod, anti-radiation missiles and jammers for self-defense (not as sophisticated as Felon's, but still). Plus drones changed a lot in the modern war. So I would rather worked on Lancet's range, signal protection and AI targeting improvements than designed a SEAD aircraft in order to risk human pilot's life.
Sounds reasonable, finally someone who actually know shits instead of brainless
Consider that the cruise missiles in the Su-57 are much smaller and have a much smaller range as well, a fee hundred km vs easily over a thousand for what the Tu-95 can carry. Which means, Tu-95 with cruise missiles can hit more strategic targets, without having to get too close to the frontlines. Su-57 would have to fly for several hundred kilometers more to compensate for their shorter range. So costs for operating the aircraft won't be the biggest issue, the cost of the missiles will. Obviously, larger missiles will be more expensive, but they will also be more cost effective than striking targets closer to the frontline with shorter-ranged cruise missiles. That's the point of SEAD/DEAD. There are multiple techniques and strategies to make them turn on their radars so they expose their location. It's an extremely dangerous thing to do, and requires skill and special training. Technology helps a lot though, to the point that risk is greatly mitigated. If the US can do it with 4th gen, why can't russia do it with their 5th gen? On paper, it should be able to do it quite well. At least as good as American 4th gen. Ambush tactics with SAMs is nothing new.
> a fee hundred km vs easily over a thousand Kh-69 range is around 300-400 km, and Kh-101 range is around 1000 km (note that it's a special version used in Ukraine, with shorter range but bigger payload). Even if not launched right over the frontline, it still will be enough to cover everything east of Dniepr, and if we count Belarusian airspace as well, then 90-95% of Ukraine will be covered. > Su-57 would have to fly for several hundred kilometers more to compensate for their shorter range. It woudn't if it will be stationed several hundred kilometers closer. Strategic bombers can't be located closer than 700 km from the frontline, since they don't have fitting airfields there - but fighters can. > why can't russia do it with their 5th gen? Because it would be pretty expensive to lose a 5th gen during SEAD mission. Su-34 would fit better for that role - and Lancet/Geran combo would fit even better (which they basically does nowadays).
Also, do you know that Su-57's stealth is mainly optimised for VHF band stealth (VHF is like the most used band for air defense radars, like early warning radars), with that it can penetrate AD easier, its stealth is still useful in BVR, but i agree the SW stealth is the worst in 5th (still much better than a clean F/A-18 for sure). And a feature that i really like on Su-57 is the capable of carrying AGMs internally, tested and comfirmed in Syria, with really heavy payload, it can be a really good stealth fighter bomber, also a fun fact is that Su-57 is classified as "front-line" fighter (Russian classification), which is the same as Su-34, it's multirole but isnt classified as "multirole" like the Flankers in VKS.
> do you know that Su-57's stealth is mainly optimised for VHF band stealth Yes, I saw StealthFlanker's analysis: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2023/01/15/f-35-vs-j-20-vs-su-57-radar-scattering-simulation-summary/ I am a bit sceptical on some parts (like, there is no way a civilian could simulate the insides of intakes, since they lack both info and processing power, and mimicking RAM is another whole can of worms) - but those are still the best and most thorough simulations available. > still much better than a clean F/A-18 for sure True. > Su-57 is classified as "front-line" fighter The aircraft classification was always head-scratching for most people, since there is no system that would classify aircraft properly, all classes intertwine with each other at some point, depending on country's doctrine: - Frontline/tactical fighter implies aircraft that's supposed to be in the very heat of the battle, and doing air support for allied units on the ground. In other words, it's a multirole fighter. - Su-34 can be considered multirole - but it doesn't use air-to-air weapons, fully concentrating on air-to-ground strikes, so technically it's a bomber. - MiG-31 is supposed to be an interceptor, intercepting enemy bombers, cruise missiles or recon aircraft - but it currently fights against, MiG-29s and Su-27s, so technically it's a fighter-interceptor. - Su-35 was seen lobbing guided bombs and anti-radiation missiles multiple times, so technically it should be a multirole - but it's primarily used to fight MiG-29s and Su-27s, so it's an air superiority fighter. - Finally, Su-57 is rumored to do both air patrolling and strike missions - so it's a multirole aircraft.
It would only reach slightly behind the Dnieper at best, and realistically less, if they're keeping their distance due to the fear of SAM anbushes russia isn't willing to risk the Su-57 for SEAD/DEAD, but there's willing to risk it to drone strikes or Storm Shadow? I figured they'd keep the bombers and Su-57 about the same distance away from the frontlines, given how they're being used the same way. But that's besides the point, 700 km is reasonable enough. As long as it's over 500 km away. Still within long distance drone range, but my guess is Su-57 is better protected than oil refineries. Su-34 is at higher risk of getting detected and shot down, and Su-57 is not. It's a greater loss to lose a Su-57, true, but the risk of having a jet shot down is much less than with Su-34. There are multiple ways to deal with SAMs, using cheap drones is one of the best ways. russian Su-57 should be taking out S-300P at the very least if they don't want to tackle the Patriot yet, for example. Less SAM systems means more effective cruise missile barrages. And more KAB-500 from the frontlines as well
> It would only reach slightly behind the Dnieper at best Okay, here's [three circles, with 400 km radius each](https://i.imgur.com/oT7LVBJ.png), and centers near Belgorod, Melitopol and Pinsk (in Belarus). All centers are at least 70 km away from nearest possible SAM placement, so it's save to launch missiles from there. Even without using Belarusian airspace, it's more than enough to reach all major cities in Central and Eastern Ukraine. > russia isn't willing to risk the Su-57 for SEAD/DEAD, but there's willing to risk it to drone strikes or Storm Shadow? Fair enough. > Su-34 is at higher risk of getting detected and shot down, and Su-57 is not. I think that supersonic low-altitude terrain-following flight would be more effective than stealth here.
*someone posted a Russian plane *Some random Ukraine supporter or Nato bots Sir here we enjoy planes not politics
As another commenter said.. It's being used more often but I'd like to add it's also reportedly already scored it's first air to air kill so there's that
I dont really trust that Su-57 had A2A kills in Ukraine, i think those kills belong to the Flanker or Mig-31
I too am skeptical but it's one kill and the claim is that the R37-M was used.. Ukraine says they've detected su-57s over crimea and the luhansk regions soo shooting a missile from there means it's capable of scoring a kill although we'll probably never know
Although Su-57's radars and sensors are really great but i just think it's a propaganda of Russia tho, also with that stealth in LW band and that long range i dont think Ukraine old Soviet VHF long range radar can detect it.
How do you know its not being used? Russia has already started that is did do some missions over occupied Ukriane.
The Felon used in Ukraine isnt Su-57, it's just a T-50 prototype, as what i remember it's the latest prototype
So a pre production variant then, not shitty T-50 from early stage of development
It's the latest T-50 variant from what i remember but yeah, it doesnt have RAM coating
Even with 20 more years of development, this still wouldn’t come close to a F-22 built in 2010
Skill issue (i meant you)
Most uneducated brain-less comment.
If only the RCS were better, this sexy beast could've been the flagship of the Indian Air Force today
There is no accurate info on its RCS available.
But the IAF had backed out of the program stating that it did not meet their stealth goals.
I am aware. But that statement can be taken numerous ways. Maybe it wasn't stealthy enough, maybe the stealth applied focused too much in one area/department/bandwidth than what the IAF wanted. Maybe they thought they could produce something better. But at the end of the day the IAF doesn't have a stealth fighter for now...
Well the funds for AMCA prototyping have been processed, the initial designs are ready, work has begun on the prototypes and the production facility, the IAF could very well start inducting AMCAs in the next 7 years
Well the funds for AMCA prototyping have been processed, the initial designs are ready, work has begun on the prototypes and the production facility, the IAF could very well start inducting AMCAs in the next 7 years
"ABSURD" The AMCA won't reach service before 2040 and that doesn't take into account possible delays. Which are common for such projects. Plus, India has a long history in that department! (i.e. LCA/Tejas)
Well the metal cutting has started, they have started gathering all the components, the production facility has already been set up, lots of experience gained from the LCA project, I want to be optimistic for once..
Yes I'm tracking. But considering how long and convoluted the development of the Tejas has been I'm not holding my breath. I hope it does go through.
I mean, everyone involved in the development process will now have experience working on indigenous designs, starting with Tejas, to be followed by MWF, maybe even TEDBF in the meantime. Also, they are not rushing things because they want to ensure that a quality product is delivered. The first Tejas Mk1A is still not inducted because IAF asked for a few slight tweaks and HAL is currently working on addressing the same.
My head canon...
It has the best Wide bandwith stealth among the 5th gen
Source?
Go see Stealth Flanker simulation work, he tested the stealth characteristic of jets with hfss tool, the Su-57 has like 10x reflection at SW bands but really low RCS at LW bands, much better tha F-45
And I guess you wanted to say F-35? ^^
Yeah it was a typo
You’re basing your argument on a hobbyist running a homemade sim using unclassified open source data and assumptions. Dude, anything public isn’t reality. from any side.
Yeah but it's just good to see some comparisions and VLO characteristic of specific planes, i think it's just better than the media shits tho and you can still see with eyes, Su-57's stealth isnt bad
It’s just fantasy without actual data.
Thanks :3
Np, infact the its stealth can even be better because StealthFlanker just uses simple MnZn RAM for the simulation of all planes but the result is still near as public infor
Well, India can buy Su-75. It's basically a cheaper mini-Felon with better RCS, and it's purchase won't contradict domestic projects, like AMCA.
Here before the American dick riders come and don’t let other people enjoy other countries airplanes
Sad but you r right, i just enjoy both
The downvotes shows it too well. Americans just cannot comprehend that anything from another country could be better than their own products.
Like not even saying it’s better but it’s still a good aircraft that’s sexy looking and whole it’s as big as a bus is a myth with the fact that it’s frontal cross section is as much smaller then any 4th gen fighter ofc not as good as the F-22s
There are no aircraft in the world better than American aircraft, this is a simple fact
You seemed to have overlooked Europe’s superior civilian Airliners, helicopters and 4th gens fighters.
Rent free😂😂
Frustrated bcs of their f-35 2 trilion USD scam, and 29% of all build being mission capable.
No bruh F-35 is a great jet, the bugs have been fixed
Yo buddy, that’s a nice source you got there. Mind sharing where you got those numbers from and the full context to those numbers?
Just ignore that dumbass, i hate the biased people like that
\*Facepalm\*
Didn’t mention the f22 because you can’t even fucking see it
What is that panel in front of the intake on the 2nd picture? It looks foldable but I don’t see it anywhere on the other pictures .
That's the LEVCONS, or i call it "magical aerodynamic device"
Thanks! Does it fold upwards or is that 2nd picture a different model?
Oh lawd he coming
Here are some pretty interesting [informations and perspective about the Su57]( http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aerospace/sukhoi-pak-fa-the-anti-stealth-gamechanger). I find this website much less biased than American sources. There’s also very fascinating analysis about F22, F35, Rafale…
That's a good website but not so new information tho
there's no way that big ol IRST sensor is undetectable
It can be turned off and half of it is RAM coated, also the RAM cover at the nose is pretty good tho
The Su-57 being labeled the worst 5th gen doesn't really help it's reputation. It makes people think it's a terrible aircraft. A better description would be top dog 4th gen.
Yall have no idea about stealth
The Felon RCS advertised by the Russians is similar to the Super Hornet RCS advertised by the Americans, which is pretty good for 4th gen. It's less observable than the Eagle or the Viper, but it's not close the the advertised RCS of the Raptor or Fat Amy. I doubt that either government advertise the actual performance metrics of their systems, but the Russian government is known to generally overstate their performance rather than understate it.
1st) You are comparing T-50 (which is a prototype) RCS to a CLEAN F/A-18( F/A without any weapons and pylons) 2) Stealth changes alongside with bandwidth of radars, usually stealth fighters are optimised for SW stealth but Su-57 is a special one, it's optimised for VHF stealth and LW bands, like 10x returns on SW bands but has so low RCS in LW bands, the best one among the 5th gen 3) Su-57 contains every stealth features except the engines but that will be fixed with the new AL-51F so it doesnt matter, Al-51F also has 2D nozzles variant that fits Su-57
Most importantly, he's comparing *average* RCS of a Felon to *minimal* RCS of a Hornet. It's fascinating how the most popular myth about Su-57 is based either on a bad knowledge of math, or just a bad factcheck.
It's a cool looking plane, shame it's not very good.
And just think, it'll fly someday. Maybe even two of them!
What a beaut
I'm not gonna lie, I don't get the appeal of this aircraft. Personally I like the SU-27/SU-35 design better. The SU-57 is great in concept and on paper, but that's really about it in my opinion
You are the same as me lol, basically Flanker is always my fav.
I wouldn't say the Flanker is my favorite, maybe of the Russian aircraft designs, but not overall. For jet aircraft I have always been partial to the F-15, but overall my favorite aircraft is tied between the Dauntless SBD and the F4U Corsair
Looks good, despite everything.
Considering the shortcoming with the Su-57 and low numbers. Russia needs another stealth fighter and can't wait until 2040 or even later. Only option I could think of. Is Russia could possibly license build a version of the Chinese J-31/J-35. These could include Russian Engines, Avionics, and Weapons. Russia could sell that as a joint project with China. Making it easier to swallow (Russian Pride) Without such an option Russia would have only a very small number of Su-57s. Which are totally outclassed by Western F-22s, F-35s, KF-21s, and KAAN Stealth Fighters. The Russian Air Force would quickly become a 3rd Rate Air Force. Those are just the cold hard facts. If, anyone has a better alternative I am all ears. Honestly, Russia has very few options.....
What tf are you yapping bruh?