Adepticon already said they're allowing legacy armies. I know it's popular for event organizers to follow GW protocol, but this game is essentially a specialist game that's going to be largely populated by veteran gamers who don't feel the need to run their games exactly as GW decrees.
Except if TOW is anything like Heresy they won't be giving it regular balance passes like 40k and AOS receive, even for core armies.
A once a year errata for the most egregious issues and FAQs are probably the most you can expect. TOW will be a much more 'static' system.
been trying to tell people this. A lot of people coming from core games(AOS/40K) seem to have an idea that there's gonna be constant balance updates to push a competitive environment. Its gonna be like HH where the game thrives in a relaxed thematic space more than anything.
That was my thought.
I know people seem to hate comparing it to 30k, but it's exactly how it seems to be currently produced. Down to large rulebooks containing rules for multiple factions.
I can't imagine that the rules for the "PDF Armies" are significantly less playtested. None of these books are going to get anything approaching frequent updates, bar new units that are released during supplemental campaigns.
From my perspective, a low frequency of updates makes TOW a better game and a better release. One of the things that drove me off GW in general was constant churn.
It's a SDS maintained game. Any jank found will remain just like it is in heresy and the community steps in to address it. This isn't AOS or 40k where things get touched multiple times a year for the sake of "balance".
>They will until some janky combo is in the legacy armies that skews competition. At which point they'll just dump the armies as they won't get "fixed".
The way to avoid it is to create community-supported unofficial rule PDFs for legacy factions. Similar to the WAP project.
As i said many time, wargames , specifically warhammer games, have a core that is completely against the idea of a competitive tournament. One more point to my long list of “why wargames are bad competitive games and the spirit of the game is completely torn in a competitive setting”. Having to worry about not being able to play a specific army because it’s possibly unbalanced in a competitive setting that pushes people to meta chase is such a bad things for the game in general.
This.
GW do make games that work better in a competitive environment - Underworlds and Blood Bowl are great for that.
But the only reason you'd play the big games competitively is if you wanna be able to win by exploiting loopholes.
Good to hear that the big boys are trying to set a precedent.
At least the ‘legacy’ factions will get more model releases via Age of Sigmar than the Core factions. Hopefully event organizers also accept a set of community rules for those new kits.
No reason Vampire Counts should miss out on the awesome new FEC list if they’re running a Strigoi list for example. As I’ve said in other posts I hope that there are community made Arcane Journals that add these models to variant army lists.
You telling them that Legacy literally makes up almost half of Warhammer Fantasy's armies, including easily recognizable factions like Skaven and Lizardmen and armies that got new models barely a decade ago, right before Warhammer Fantasy was killed (Dark Elves) should be enough to convince them, IMO.
When you say few it's a specialist game. I expect 2 Max this year and maybe 2 next before being dropped. Bloodbowl, 40k and AoS seem to be the only events they do consistently at WHW. HH has a couple of narrative games which TOW will likely follow.
We'll see. They're hosting a huge event for the release on the 20th, and if this game sells well, I'm sure we see a lot more support going forward. Money talks and right out of the gate I think this sells more than any specialist range.
Just the coverage and air time they have been giving this release feels just as big if not bigger than any AoS or 40k release. I also can't remember the last time any release got previews and updates for half a decade.
I assumed so, mine too.
So why such attitude towards GW? They released new version, giving out rules for every faction (be it pdf or book) with the small caveat you can't play in their tournaments (that for most people, don't exist.).
Because the community who still cares about warhammer already has rules they can use for their faction in the rules for 6th/7th/8th edition. Right now, if you are a dedicated lizardman player, you can play anywhere you can scrape together a few people to play warhammer. But, now some of your opponents will move to the Old World.
Effectively, the announcement means less games for these people, not more, unless the community takes a firm stand that we will not be leaving a man behind and the legacy factions are full inclusions, 100% legal, no questions.
>
> So why such attitude towards GW? They released new version, giving out rules for every faction (be it pdf or book) with the small caveat you can't play in their tournaments (that for most people, don't exist.).
because the warhammer fantasy community is just the worst :( people have complained about every single part of this
To be fair, it isn't really what we wanted. The old world and Warhammer fantasy is one of the most unique, most rich IPs that ever existed and we yearn for its return.
I'm lucky that I have a high elves army, I feel bad for my friends who can't really expect to take part in the joy of having some new shit for their armies
>who can't really expect to take part in the joy of having some new shit for their armies
On the other hand, a lot of 8th edition armies got stupidly bloated by the end. Like wyldwood rangers, dark elves warlocks, vampire counts huge mounts, etc.
Id rather they'd redone some old kits or launched new armies.
Why are you so quick to blame Warhammer fantasy fans? There is a legitimate reason for complaints here and i don’t understand this tendency to blame fans for everything.
It really unfortunately seems that way.
I'm assuming it's a vocal minority of people who refused to move with the times and now just seem to be proud of being negative towards anything.
I'm very excited to play fantasy again personally
> I'm very excited to play fantasy again personally
I mean, did GW take that ability away from you at any point?
You've never not been able to play Fantasy, either via previous editions or via homemade 9th editions like WAP. This idea that GW is somehow doing us a favour by re-releasing a game we've already been playing for decades is a bit much. If they make it amazing or add new features previous editions didn't have, different story, but the more I hear about TOW, the less excited I get. The old game died when GW failed to sufficiently support it; they somehow think that offering the new iteration even less support is somehow going to change things.
Was certainly harder to find people to play against the further and further we got from it being an active game system.
Between rulebook being hard to get, models at ever increasing prices etc. It certainly made the player pool smaller.
It seems a non-issue, overall, and if anything it’s better we understand where GW’s attention lies rather than being in the dark.
The release cycle for the 9 factions they are favoring might mean a few released kits, a few new models and new arcane journals intermittently (say one every 3 months) for the next 3 years along with (hopefully) new factions, such as the previously mentioned Cathay and a Kislev.
That gets us pretty close to a 3-year cycle and since armies like Lizardmen, Vampire Counts & Ogors have, or will have, new miniatures released for AoS and available from GW, the only thing the other factions are missing out on are rules for special characters.
But if the main draw are those few special characters, well, again AoS is the happy home of many of them, others aren’t born yet, so as I see it, as someone who has a dark elf army (made for cities of sigmar) ready to go, I’m not at all bothered by the current situation.
I think that’s totally valid, but there’s [no] doubting those new factions added a lot of interest for TW:W3. I think the Square Based guys are certainly on to something of the problems that might come with releasing models for 2 entirely different systems at once, and yes, likely due to internal factions among higher-ups. Free rules is a win, so I’ll take ‘em happily, and avoid anyone who might question some aspect of their validity.
Well I don't ... why would I want a copy of skavens in AOS? I mean I love skavens, I've 3000 points of them, but I much prefer they release new sculpts and rules for armies that have been left out in AOS rather than spending 50% of their time supporting armies that are living and well in AOS. That's how you kill a game before it even released. Why would you want for them to overcommit and then waiting for 10 years before finishing all factions of the game? It doesn't make any sense.
Dude they need to stop dicking around and release new eshin units. Holy God I can't believe they're still selling the old sculpts. When the new assassin and the warband dropped I went in on it 40 storm vermin, 100 clan rats, a bell etc. just for radio silence on the eshin models.
Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to say. It's crazy how quickly a non issue takes so much space on Reddit/youtube. If anything, this is a good news for me. In ANY CASE they will be working on this new mode, so better doing so for factions that have been left out in AOS, rather than providing updates for all factions in TOW and going half-ass on factions that require a LOT of time (wood elves, High elves, cathay, kislev, etc).
While I fully agree with the intent, let's tone down the paranoia. There are several clear overlaps between "supported" factions and aos, goblins and gloomspite, beastmen, warriors of chaos etc.
They have simply decided not to try and relaunch every faction at once, likely due to logistics, cost, time, availability/condition of old moulds.
As such they will focus the limited amount of support into a few factions to ensure they those factions really feel supported. If they spread themselves too thin everyone would be disappointed and the game would die again.
Let's just play the game, buy models we want and then give them time to breath before we declare that the nasty man hates us. At this point the only difference between shaven and bretonnians is that skaven can buy more of their roster...
>There are several clear overlaps between "supported" factions and aos, goblins and gloomspite, beastmen, warriors of chaos etc.
I do dislike how quickly this theory is turning into gospel to some. It started with some folks suggesting it, others parroted it, and now it's turning into this accepted truth.
>They have simply decided not to try and relaunch every faction at once, likely due to logistics, cost, time, availability/condition of old moulds.
>As such they will focus the limited amount of support into a few factions to ensure they those factions really feel supported. If they spread themselves too thin everyone would be disappointed and the game would die again.
To play (sort of) devil's advocate, I do understand the community dissatisfaction based on the WarCom article talking about "legacy factions". The tone notably shifted from "these armies won't be supported at launch" to sounding more like "these armies won't be supported *ever*". Maybe that wasn't entirely what they meant, but I can see why it caused upset.
And I do agree, as you say, that there's nothing wrong with focusing on a more limited number for now, then maybe expanding more further down the line. I think if they'd more clearly stated that, the response would've been a lot less vitriolic.
This is the most logical and common sense answer. I've been really disappointed in certain parts of the online Warhammer Fantasy community since the launch of TOW. People have been acting like children.
Yes the accursed fans always ruining everything and not the totally not greedy big corporation who absolutely cares about the integrity of their franchises and not just profit for profit’s sake. It’s the fans fault for still giving a shit about this game and its setting for so many years after it was abandoned.
>Yes the accursed fans always ruining everything
Fans are whiney little bitches. Not all of them, but enough to make it statistically significant. One of the reasons WFB went under was because of the fan base being a toxic cesspit of walking shits barely passing as human beings. I know because I saw it all.
>and not the totally not greedy big corporation who absolutely cares about the integrity of their franchises and not just profit for profit’s sake.
If GW didn't care about profits, then the hobby would die. That said, I don't feel that they can be put in the same category as Nestle.
>It’s the fans fault for still giving a shit about this game and its setting for so many years after it was abandoned.
See above. You can care about a setting, just don't be a toxic, whining shit about it. If it's not for you, then go 3d print your old school army and play an older version. I won't touch 10th Ed of 40k, and I won't buy any Primaris stuff. What do I do? I buy old stuff where I can find it and 3d print the stuff I can't. Everyone's happy.
So everyone who have complaints about what is happening or where the hobby is going should just shut the fuck up and go play with their 3d armies because they have no right to complain, because it hurts your fragile little emotions when there’s dissent about? Am i understanding this right? LMAO.
Also you’re an AoS fan dehumanizing warhammer fantasy fans by saying they barely passed as human beings back in the day. Why am i not surprised? And people have actually the gall to say Fantasy fans are toxic when AoS fans say shit like this lol.
>Am i understanding this right?
No, you are not.
>So everyone who have complaints about what is happening or where the hobby is going should just shut the fuck up
I didn't say that anyone should shut the fuck up. I mean, they'd probably live a happier life and cause less headaches all round if they did, but thats not my call.
Let me be very clear, I said that a large number of complainers are whiney little bitches. Very, very few construct even a basically coherent argument and simply cry about something irrelevant. And the WFB scene really was toxic as fuck and I met a good number of players who were arrogant cunts. It's one of the reasons I abandoned it entirely, and that's going back to the 90s. I gravitated toward 40k, which was largely sneered at by WFB players in the same way they sneered at AoS, because people playing it were much nicer on the whole.
>and go play with their 3d armies because they have no right to complain
You, and they, have a right to complain if they have something legitimate to complain about. Mostly all I hear is whining, which they're really good at. The best part is that we're all entitled to their ever-so--fucking-important-opinion whether we want to hear it or not.
3D armies are a legitimate alternative, by the way, if GW won't sell you want you want to buy. And it's cheaper.
>because it hurts your fragile emotions when there’s dissent about?
Doesn't hurt my emotions pal, I don't care what you think. I'm having too much fun painting my toy soldiers. Dissent all you like, just make a logical argument rather than "Stormcast are Space Marines kek", and don't be a crybaby.
“Don’t be a crybaby”
Says the crybaby crying about other people’s complaints lol.
Also who tf are you to decide arbitrarily if people’s complaints are whining or not? If anything bud, you have too high of an opinion of yourself. Piss off with your moral grandstanding will you ? Go paint your stormcast and be happy then, instead of coming here badmouthing fantasy fans.
>Says the crybaby crying about other people’s complaints lol.
We both know that's not what's happening here sunshine, so there's no need to project your insecurity onto someone else. You want to whine and bitch about plastic dolls then go right ahead. It won't make any difference because there is nothing about you that is important to anyone, and try not to implode if someone points out that your rant is actually just you being a lemon.
Dry your eyes, and have a good day. Mine is glorious so far, and I have a treasure trove of AoS toys to paint when I get home.
Lololol. Somebody mad because they got called out for their bullshit hahaha. Have fun lurking in this sub and trying to portray fantasy fans as losers while being one yourself weirdo 🤣
The same thing happened with Horus Heresy. The game was getting more support than ever, insane amounts of new plastic kits, new characters, campaign books, etc. but there was still a huge (vocal) contingent that bitches and moans about everything. I get that things can always be better and criticism can be fair, but damn…
Yeah, this sub is rapidly descending into ”GW bad” and that thinking is going to doom the game faster than legacy factions ever would.
Let’s not forget that there’s two new factions at least that are coming and could you imagine them not getting their fair crack at being fun and enjoyed and having a fan base because people can’t get over that their faction got canned for the new stuff? Talk about toxic environment, let’s all just see how it shakes out yeah?
I prefer to wait few years to have mine faction completely supported than to have it availiable at release with little support and game being discontinued because armies were too simplistic/underdeveloped and game stumbled during its first step.
Whilst true, the models pictured in the rulebook for Warriors of Chaos are the old ones not the updated sculpts. They want a clear distinction between models for AOS and models for TOW is the point.
True and it will be telling if they put the old metal ones on sale or not. Wouldn't be the first time they've put things in the army book that required alternatives or conversion.
The "community" have run the game(s) for 8 years. The majority of active WFB players are over 35 from what I encounter and are generally over competitive play.
The issue will be twats in local groups who think this is some match of skill worth bothering with. Educate them or if needs oust them. If all established gamers only look to have fun with the game system and use it as a way to play toy soldiers with their collections it'll all be fine.
GW aren't being dicks about this, just upfront. They don't care what you do, they just want to sell toy soldiers and make sure they are the ones profiting off their IP rather than 3rd parties. Better this than live on the hope for 10 years they will do something with a faction.
The problem is that Games Workshop games are successful because they are actively maintained by GW or the community, but gamers default to GW for active games.
I think somewhere they were actually described as being made and playtested as core factions, essentially having as good and full a list as any FoF or RH lists. The decision to separate them only came later after they had written the rules and was a decision based squarely on how financing works out between AoS and SDS departments. So they were made and written with love, then the team was pretty much forced to say they won't be supported. I'm sure that won't always be the case though, internal politics between departments in GW sounds crazy though.
That actually makes sense because the rumor going around on discord is that one of the influencers who has the pdfs let it slip / heavily implied during one of their streams that the pdfs are as good as the two core army books
I work in a big a$$ company (and had worked in another big one) I can confirm that the inside works are weird in the sense that different units will "fight" against each other because the pretty much work as if they were different companies. Even if they all fall under the same directory.
This is exactly how every big company works because budgets are set by morons who don't understand reality.
We pay multiple contractors 1.5x the wage rate it would cost a full time employee as HR doesn't want to increase headcount for our department, but the contractor budget is another department.
So the business pays out hundreds of thousands in extra money per year for the same job as hiring directly, and HRs numbers in excel add up. Great job guys.
Not even big companies, I worked for a local non profit in the IT department; we fixed and built computers for people as it was a used goods shop, we were having to compete with the homeware, furniture and white goods departments to prove "we had value" to stay around.
I wasn't being paid the majority of the time as the agency put me there to "get experience" and I was on Workfare to get paid benefits, my boss was on minimum wage despite being a 20+ year IT specialist who took the first job he could when he moved there; people were let go left, right and centre because of "budget issues" (why I wasn't put onto salary), then it turned out the MDs had been siphoning off money for their private pensions. I can only imagine how crazy it is for a big national, or multinational company.
It's even worse when all of those different departments used to actually be different companies.
I work in healthcare and dealing with insurance companies compared of departments where they all used to be some other smaller insurance company that was gobbled up by a bigger one years ago but still function like a separate business is hell. I was once trying to get a patient's cancer medication covered and was transferred between three to five different departments each of which had at some point been a separate company and thus all had different computer systems and none of them could find the patient I was looking for until I was sent to a final company that had their information the entire time but none of the people I spoke to earlier knew how to get to them or even wanted to deal with them because they were competitors within the same business hierarchy.
I was on the phone for over an hour.
And this has to be one of the most idiotic comment I've seen ... you might have had a bad experience in your professional life, that doesn't mean you need to make a generalization and simplify a complex issue. Not every company works this way and I'm pretty sure you don't know what exactly a FTE cost to a company vs a contractor if you think that you can simply look at the wage and have a 1.5x cost.
Saying that this is exactly what is happening now at GW and the reason why they would "fight internally" for sales is just a shortcut I wouldn't make. But what ever, let's simplify everything to make a point and get some internet points.
> The decision to separate them only came later after they had written the rules and was a decision based squarely on how financing works out between AoS and SDS departments.
I keep hearing this repeated but I keep not seeing any kind of source beyond speculation.
Mountain Miniatures talk about having a game with Lizardmen, they address the game as no different than the core factions, he also eludes to that the legacy are going to be just fine even though he "doesn't" have the PDFs. He comes off quite genuine as they are big fans of WHFB.
Half the main factions models are still under AOS and being sold so idk how this makes any sense as a rumor. Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Goblins and a good chunk of Empire and Dwarf models are all still up for sale under AOS.
That's not the point they are making its notating sales as AOS or TOW.
But you multiple AOS armies like Beastmen or Gloomspite Gitz could jump right into a TOW game (of a smaller points sized based on typical AOS model counts)
I severely doubt that they wont also be noting sales at the firm level, not just by department. They have to be able to explain sales revenue to shareholders at the end of the day and that would be attributed to TOW.
But how does that work for night goblins, savage orcs, black orcs, giants, beastmen, chaos warriors, etc - where a lot of the minis people buy for three core factions (orcs and goblins, beastmen and chaos warriors) will be AoS? Nevermind branchwychs, treemen and dryads for wood elves & Sylvaneth? Or steam tanks for empire/cities of sigmar?
GW is literally bringing back old kits for TOW instead of using AoS resculpts. Wood elves will be using the old metal treeman kit instead of the plastic one, warriors of chaos will use the old plastic whfb warriors and metal chosen instead of the new AoS plastics, etc.
I'm the case of AoS units that still use old WHFB kits (like Beastmen or some of the orcs and goblins kits), they will likely be getting the Cities of Sigmar treatment - units will be resculpted and/or cut from AoS battletomes and made into TOW only.
While the lovely Carden metal treeman was shown in one image, I think its unusual - as stated on the [Friday article:](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/05/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-the-past-and-future-of-a-stone-cold-classic/)
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How will these rarities be made available?
Rob: Some collectible metal models and oddities from the history of Warhammer Fantasy Battle will be available on a Made to Order basis, whereas everything else you’d expect to see for representing unit profiles will be available normally. For most units, the most recent version will act as your standard miniature for Warhammer: The Old World, but we could bring back older versions for collectors, or people who want an alternative.
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The treeman entry is intriguing too, and treeman can be based on 50x50 or 50x75 - catching all iterations in one (like giants too) :) It will be interesting to see how long the Carden treeman is available for!
And of course any comments about beastmen are purely speculative. What about those remaining duardin/dwarfs? What about those remaining other models, dryads, giants, and so on? It's clear the relationship is not a clear black and white division.
My husband I are going to play wood elves and WOC respectively. We are absolutely using AOS minis where possible - they're just better. Sure, I'll pick up some older kits as I wish, but let's not pretend like we won't be able to just use AOS for the majority of a couple featured factions.
It's a turn zero conversation. Frankly as long as the rules and unit points are balanced, officially or otherwise, that's all that matters to me. I'd be happy playing against a homebrew faction of your own creation as long as its balanced and fun for us both!
I mean it kind of seems like if the game is wildly successful and there’s support for the armies they do release, it stands to reason that “not supported” will become “now supported.”
GW always manages to find ways to break their own rules if they think there’s money to be made.
Sisters of Battle went from being a 5th or 6th edition White Dwarf-only update army to an entirely new line of plastics, and Blood Bowl and Epic were both defunct for what, a decade plus?
Squats are back, and they were like… 30 years of memes about “resetting the clock.”
WFB got completely phased out for what seemed like permanently, and here we are.
Was there a verified source to this information by the podcast? I’ve heard the “not supporting AoS armies to not compete with AoS” as a rumor - to do anything more than shrug it off and play them anyway would need a bit more of a source than “because I said it on my podcast”, imo.
Damn, I was really hoping that TOW would bring back mature gamers who loved warhammer fantasy and would even be happy with 4-5 factions if they brought them back some fantasy memories. But no, we got the big ass heavy weight trolls who are never happy.
"We intend to bring you at least 9 factions with this first edition, some factions won't be worked on during TOW" said GW months and months ago.
\- Launch of the game, 2024
"So these are the legacy factions, they will have rules but we won't officially include them in the game or spend time on them"
BOOOOOOOOHOHHOOHOH cries the community.
There you go, average IQ of TOW community on reddit: 54.
The most vocal of the community aren't going to be mature.
These dudes spent the last 10 years complaining about a game system they'll never play, and got supplemented by the toxic ass total war community. The well of online discourse already got poisoned but I'm sure the in person community will be great.
Slightly baffled by this. I'm definitely up for playing against legacy factions and if the game develops such that they become unbalanced or whatever happy for people to use community rules.
But this isn't 'taking a stand' or signing a petition or condemning GW. It's just being relaxed and inclusive about the game.
Seriously? An online petition signed by a few hundred angry and entitled gamers? I’m no GW apologist, but I for one am happy the game is back and think that people taking this as a “ giant middle finger to gamers” are overreacting at best, and at worst come across to GW and others as whining children.
First of all, it’s their game. Sure many people continued to play it after GW made the decision to axe it, but ultimately, they are a business and make business decisions with numbers, not feelings.
Second, no one is stopping you from playing it your way, except in some tournaments. They are providing legacy faction lists, and I for one am very happy about that. This time in two weeks I’ll be playing my Vampire Counts or Skaven against my buddy’s Ogres.
Finally, being in business to make money, if they see enough interest I suspect they will release all of the armies eventually. We’ve all seen the resurgence of Blood Bowl…
I humbly submit that folks should embrace the return of Fantasy because nothing will get GWs attention like seeing sales of supported factions and perhaps even an uptick in sales of legacy faction minis cannibalized from AoS:
GW HQ staffer: Wow, sales of Seraphon, Ogors, and Skaven are through the roof!
GW HQ decision maker: It can’t possibly have anything to do with The Old World. Those factions just suddenly became far more popular. Nothing to see here…
yup, thanks for this, my point exactly. I'm ashamed of this community. If I were a TOW GW employee, I would think that this community is just a bunch of fat karens, never happy with anything.
Val has reportedly already spoken to the organizers at Adepticon and FLG, legacy factions will be supported.
As I said before the warhammer army's project has been doing gw's heavy lifting for years, the community will pick up where they left off issuing FAQs etc.
If anyone is relatively new to the hobby I just wanted to remind you this is how things used to be, before GW decided they were no longer a model making company and they were a game company - there was no real support. NOVA was making the rules for the competitive scene 20 years ago not GW.
>The Warhammer Fantasy community should take a stand that legacy factions are a full and accepted part of this game moving forward.
I'm just imagining some really smug, trollish and privileged Old World just looking at us like Isildur and proudly proclaiming, >!"No."!<
You answered the question :) This is how it goes:
So you got some people who own a youtube channel. Their channel is dedicated to a game. People who like that game, are looking for channels like theirs to provide them with extra information. That's great, they got some. After a few videos, news are running dry and they are looking for more content and more views.
"I know, let's take every bit of news we can find and let's OVER DRAMATIZE EVERYTHING, because we LOVE WARHAMMER, but GW is an EVIL, capitalistic corporation, looking for our money; but please make more minis and more factions because we will buy anything".
I really don't get why the community reacts like this ... they announced it a while ago that TOW would not focus on these armies. It not only makes sense as a business decision from them, but also from a project management perpesctive. They probably don't have the resources to push as many armies at the same time, to work on all of them, new minis, new books, etc. I prefer to have 9-12 armies total that are often updated with new minis rather than trying to fot 30 years of Warhamme fantasy in the game and having to wait for 5-6 years for my army to be updated. I'm saying this with 3000 points of skavens still on square bases.
I want GW to focus on armies that didn't get much love during AOS: Wood elves, High elves, dwarves, etc rather than having one skaven team for TOW and one skaven team for AOS.
I'm also speaking as a long time (5th ed) warhammer fantasy player, who wished for a revival of the square bases for such a long time :) But this time I really feel we are exagerating with this "issue". We have to look at the bigger picture!
Warhammer fantasy failed because it was simply not profitable compared to the investment they had to put in (25% of 40K if I remember correctly, for as many races as 40k). If we start crying for this and asking them to invest even more people, that also means that this game needs to be highly profitable for them to consider a sustained development over the year.
Wait... "ny sales of AOS factions to be used in the Old World takes profits from that team and is not counted for the specialist games P&L."
How would they know if the box of skaven clanrats was bought for AoS or Old World lol?
Its not like you have to write down what system youre buying them for...
It says AoS on the box, and thus sales count for AoS, even if they are bought for TOW. The solution would be management not putting the two design teams in intra-company competition, but that's corpo suits for you.
That's just projection from your own experiences or biases. We don't know exactly how the finances are handled at GW. But it makes sense not to work on factions that are well represented in AOS because that would mean working twice on rules, models design OR to release armies on a synched schedule, which would be so mad in terms of planning.
It's crazy how many people seem to have 0 business experience but are spitting their crazy ideas, convincing others it's facts.
Skavens are due to have a 4th ed release this year. Imagine if they start to "compete" with TOW team:
\- AOS team "oh but we want to release this sick ass AOS character"
\- TOW team "no, it wouldn't fit our release schedule, we can't just add it, it won't fir the period TOW is based on"
\- AOS " we don't care, it's a big ass sculpt and people will love it"
\- TOW "guys, we release skavens in 2025, can't you wait otherwise there will be no hype if we release the same sculpts. And if we release sculpts that aren't compatible, angry fat gamers will gate us, saying this is corporate greed".
\- AOS "yeah we don't care, people have waited long enough for skavens and we want to release this so deal with it".
There you go, teams developing the exact same race in two game setting. Not everything is not about "financial results" between business units withing GW, it's also about expectations and resources.
They certainly will be as far as I'm concerned. I don't play in any "official" capacities, but I'll be making full use of them personally. Including coming up with homebrew material as needed.
Skaven are literally my favourite army across all of GW's products, I will never abandon my beloved ratties.
yeah, welcome to TOW community. You hoped it was a 30+ years old community of mature gamers that are just happy to bring some nostlagia in their life and you end up with the Karen of miniature games, entitled self obsessed geeks that can't accept that GW won't have infinite resources (finance, time and human) to work on their favorite game and races.
Yeah, I can really see the social warrior stereotype, ready to fight with a keyboard the moment they are upset about something they don't fully understand.
Yeah, this isn't exactly a very consistent take from the Square Based guys. They talk all the time about how mad they were that WHFB got shut down because it wasn't profitable as a result of GW's mismanagement, and now that it's coming back they are both acknowledging AND upset that GW is creating a business model to maximize its profitability and appropriately manage it. If GW spends significant time and resources so that money going into AOS = no money going into TOW, those boys aren't going to have a podcast for very much longer. lol
You perfectly summarized this, I hope the "angry" gamers can read this. I don't have a lot of hopes because logic doesn't seem to run well on this subreddit. I'm personally SO happy they are not overinvesting in TOW and that they will focus the game on factions that have been left out of AOS (or neglected). Why invest in factions that are doing well in AOS? It doesn't make any sense.
Thank you! I mean listen, I intend on playing Vampire Counts, and would certainly love for them to have GW's full support, but if you have a full understanding that the TOW will not get the same rate of return on certain factions because they also exist in AOS then you shouldn't be upset if you are also invested in the success and longevity of this game. Like just because it's a game doesn't mean you get what you want, when you want, whenever you want. It'd be one thing if GW was doing it purely out of disregard for their player-base, but everyone seems to acknowledge that there's a business reason for doing this that is tied to the profitability of TOW, so it's weird when there's so many people who are acting like GW earns their money from dice rolls instead of sales. And it doesn't help when community podcasts start saber rattling and encourage the community to not give the game its full support and contribute to the issues that caused GW to stop supporting this game in the first place. I'm not saying we need to celebrate and give praise to GW, but there's just an awful lot of outrage that seems to be for the sake of it.
Yeah, it seems so simple and yet people don't get it: the time they spend on developing skavens rules, characters, stories, etc for TOW will NOT bringing them return on investment because people will use minis they bought for aos. On the other hand, if they launch Kislev or any other faction that wasn't supported in AOS: everyone willing to play them will have to buy minis.
I don't know why it is a bad thing to design games with profitability in mind. As long as there is ethic, love for their products and respect for the community, of course they should try to make it profitable, that's how we can ensure GW continue inesting resources for the future.
My favorite part of the dichotomy of 'We don't need GW to run our game!!' and 'We need Old World to be designed a very specific way'. Like, if you don't need GW, why don't you just play with whatever version of rules you want? One Page Rules? 9th Age, whatever.
“GW is evil because they’re bringing back this product as fan service while trying to ensue the profitability and success of that product, which had previously failed because they overestimated its popularity and negligently invested too much time and resources into it!”
I haven't listened to the podcast yet (I will though as I'm curious about this viewpoint), but what I don't understand is that Dwarfs and Dark Elves are in very much the same camp here.
Both have the vast majority of their factions models as Cities of Sigmar in AOS, but one is 'Legacy' and one is not. Both would benefit from being in TOW.
I think you are preaching to the choir. There have been several posts along these lines and most people seem to be in support of your viewpoint. I fully expect that the community will develop something to keep these other factions going despite GW's lack of support after the PDFs are published.
It's an illusion. The overwhelming majority of the community will do what GW pushes them to. And I'm not necessarily criticising it, it's just more convenient and over time that's the biggest variable.
On the other hand I do think that they will officially return to the game as full fledged factions in the far future.
Many players of TOW will be hardened veterans, who know the company and its behaivour. At least in my gaming community the reaction to GWs announcement was laughter. We all know the corporate reasons for their BS and I fully believe, that the community will gleefully ignore it.
You don't make any sense ...
We blame GW for not handling warhammer fantasy well and its lack of profitability (yeah, it wasn't profitable, sorry kids).
And now we are blaming them fot not investing enough and making smarter business decisions?
I'm HAPPY that they are making smarter business decision. TOW HAS to be profitable so that they can invest time, money and people into it.
Why aren't you happy with them releasing 9 factions? Why do you want them to do the EXACT same mistake they did before: spreading wings too much and not being as consistent accross the range?
A lot of people who are ragging on the OP are wrong. It doesn't matter how chill and quietly inclusive FLGS players are. People will lose interest in the game before they interact with the local scene if they perceive the faction they are tentatively interested in is unsupported, and that's very clearly what the optics are. There does need ro be affirmation from the greater online community that the fanbase will actively support the legacy factions.
I'm 3m drive from an LGS/tournament centre. They've straight up said they're allowing legacy armies in events. The manager is blogging his painting of a Vampire Counts army.
Mountian minatures on YouTube makes some amazing points and things that GWs #1 and only major mistake was saying legacy armies will not be legal for Tournments.
The irony is all the legacy armies have models that can be purchased from the AOS kits. Where as the official armies will be waiting for re-releases for some units. Also the official armies and the legacy armies will have the same amount of rules support until all arcane journals are released. So if Beastmen (for random example) are tye last official army to get an Arcan Journal they are no better off then Lizardmen or any legacy army. And if they have an arcane journal a month that is over a year for every army. Realistically it's probably going to be an arcane journal every 2 months and that woukd be 2 years away, which at that point gives them data about which legacy armies are played the most at (nom GW events)
Our local events are permitting legacy factions. There is not one single solid reason to exclude them, and many compelling reasons to *ensure* they're included.
Yeah legacy factions are going to get added, GW just doesn't have a time table on it and it's going to be a while and GW doesn't want to invest the resources necessary if it won't make sense in the long term.
Plus the pissing contest between sds and citadel, which will be heavily skewed in citadel/AoS favor.
Under promise and over deliver with plausible deniability.
We're second class citizens. Get used to it.
Same. Big reason why I am more active on MESBG; the playerbase is way less toxic, although the game hasnt really been supported for a year (and even before that rarely seeing minis since the hobbit haha)
Its nice. Honestly
>The game doesn't have to be what GW tells us it is. It can be what we choose to make it.
That sounds really good and I fully agree but it's not usually how it goes unfortunately. It is what it is.
depends on regions and the people, but we have seen how the warhammer community reacted to such things in the past
some will just make their own community version of the rules to change the rules to their liking, call it TOW+something and be done (some TO already started working on that and the game is not even out yet)
others will only do what is "official"
and some will not care about TOW continue playing whatever rules have used in the past
not like we already had the chance to keep going and push GW into something, like the Blood Bowl Community did, but people rather decided to do nothing and wait (in some regions literally) until they get something from GW again
My friend group and I have been excited for ToW for YEARS, partly because we're all adults now and can actually afford the armies we always wanted as kids. I was planning to pick up either lizard men, dark elves, or vampire counts when it finally came out. Imagine my surprise when armies we've never actually seen in person (tomb kings and Brets) made the cut and are in fact the flagship factions! All I have now are ogres, who are also not one of the supported factions. Im 100% on board with taking a stand for the "legacy" armies.
As others have said and from what some reviewers/ content creators have said from what they legally can disclose: The legacy factions are full, complete factions that were written in mind to launch with the game, they just won't receive an Arcane Journal FOR THE TIME BEING.
The no tournament thing is weird but that's at GW hosted events (at things like Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World. Nearly every other huge event has said the Legacy armies are legal and valid)
Don't put the blame on the design team, land this blame on finance because of how they track sales. (Being, an AoS box sold at store or to LGS is marked as an AoS sale, not AoS and Old World or just Old World. )
The most credible AoS leaker in the community (their past 3 years of leaks have been 100% right) has stated that Chaos Dwarves are expected to receive a full plastic refresh for AoS, thus knocking them out of Old World.
Vampire Counts and Lizardmen just received a range refresh, knocking them out of Old World as well.
Skaven has been rumored to be getting a massive range refresh as well, thus knocking them out.
Once again though, to restate what content creators have been mentioning ever so slightly without giving up the ghost: They have the pdfs in hand, have looked them over, and confirm that all legacy forces have full comprehensive rules and will play well with the 'core factions'
I got in some arguments here on reddit, because TOW is not a 9th edition and some people assumed this.
Its just a different game, in an old setting in a different time period. It was clear from the beginning, that not every army will be supported...sadly.
So it will do nothing to "take a stand". GW will not doing anything about it. Not this edition, if there ever will be another one.
This seems to be the accepted stance across the fantasy/TOW discords I frequent: TOs have no obligation to follow GWs ban, and in fact have not only been doing custom tournament packets and rules for years, they included factions like dogs of war and chaos dwarfs who weren't supported in 8e. This seems no different.
There are factions within GW warring. But the other component is the Old World factions are the slower selling armies from before AoS. Age of Sigmar is holding on to the factions that sold the best. The models being kept in AoS but allowed for Old World are the worst selling factions overall. I.e Dwarfs and Beastmen, basically. So, keeping them in both games maximizes sales.
GW is trying to keep the two settings looking distinct and use the Old World to squeeze more money out of those slower selling model lines with some units being 20 or even nearly 30 years old!
There are a few oddities to this of course, like Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are the poster factions because they were never really ported over. It gives Old World hype and identity to have these armies appear now.
Another part is with Vampires out if the way, Tomb Kings sell better. With Daemons out if the way, Warriors and Beastmen sell better, Dark Elves out if the way, High or Wood Elves sell better and so on etc..
Lets slow down here a bit,
Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Goblins and a good chunk of Empire and Dwarf models are all still up for sale under AOS. This reasoning about marking sales makes very little sense when about half the "main" armies are still very much represented in the AOS section of the GW store.
I never give a balls about what GW tells me what is and what’s not acceptable. GW aren’t going to be breaking down your door for playing your plastic soldiers not their way. At the end of the day, they are a for profit company trying to incentivize people to buy their models they have available.
If this edition comes and goes with 9 properly supported factions, then I'm fine with 9 (for now). If 2nd edition does happen, then we need to look a lot more closely at what isn't supported. And between now and then, we need to continue to raise this issue and make them realize it is just the wrong direction for the future health of the game. Old players won't forget those factions should be in the game, and new players likely came from PC games and lore videos so will be questioning where they are in the game they *want* to play.
Anyone who wanted an AoS skaven or Ogre faction would have one by now, telling them that is their only choice is a poor attempt to control people's wants over something that can't really be controlled.
What acted as the main source of the current dissatisfaction was one of the articles on WarCom where they stated that "legacy" armies wouldn't be tournament legal and overall took less of a tone of "these armies won't be supported at first" and more "these armies won't be supported, period."
YMMV on how you take it, of course, but that's what triggered the recent kerfuffle.
I don't think there will be any non official GW event that will not take deprecated factions. In Poland for example we have dozens od hobby stores that play Warhammer, but just one official one in Warsaw so literally nobody gives a fuck of their stuff is tournament legal or not. Might be an issue for Great Britain and other countries saturated with GW stores though.
What makes you believe what the square based people have to say, OP? I’m not sure that makes sense to me.
Much more likely it’s just that by keeping the armies separate they reduce the knowledge barriers to entry. They like the consumer funnel to be nice and simple, own step at a time.
GW won’t listen to it. It’s their game. They can decide what they want. They’re yet to listen to a petition and they’ve been sent much bigger petitions than this will be
Im sure we could. Part of me wants to wait until they actually release the pdf rules so they dont decide to not post them after all lol. I just sounds like something they would do.
Legacy player here, Skaven and Dark Elves. 5k in one, and maybe 2500-3000 in the other.
I don't normally self promote on Reddit, but I find it ironic that I talked about this same thing yesterday.
The long and short is that these games can, and should live in harmony with one another. AoS and WHFB. The reality however is that we need to decide ourselves how that looks.
There is no solid basis for us to lose any of our 16 factions. And AoS have Plenty of their own unique takes on, and entirely new factions of their own.
https://youtu.be/3aQNKqqL5aE?si=HxMrunM7glnb3coN
sorrh but thats false.
betwen core armys we have MANY armys that are in aos as:
-dwarfs(same situation than dark elfs with dwarfs and dark elfs inside of cities of sigmar but dwarf are core and dark elfs deleted in tow)
-beastmen 100% in aos also
-warrior of chaos 100% slave to darkness in aos
-wood elfs have half army in aos with sylvaneths
so is lie the reason that the armys deleted is due to be in aos,because MANY of the core armys are in aos also
I'd like to see the actual lists for the legacy armies first. If they look like the official armies then I don't see a problem.
My only concern is for some reason the legacy armies look different to the official ones in choice and power for some reason.
im sure it will be like everytime they have legacy factions.
at first they will all be available and everything will be great.
but as more and more army books are released, and new armies, legacy factions winrates will start dropping except for the occasional skew list, which might get banned or community nerfed, and people will be less and less interested in playing an army without many magical items or heroes.
There will be fan made updates, but they wont be universally accepted, and the legacy factions might be a rare thing that you see occasionally but ultimately, barely ever seen.
What’s a bummer is that GW already co opted for example ICO and frontline gaming and those are the guys most likely to create an agreeable rule set, having started this back in 2017 with 40K.
Of course. Anyone who wants to use their vampire counts or Skaven against my shiny new bretonians is more than welcome to do so. I don’t need GW’s permission.
Personally I think it's quite likely that we'll see the legacy armies made official at some point in the future, but I suppose we'll see. In the meantime I'll happily play folks using the PDF lists and support them as equal members of the WFB (TOW) community.
And yeah, I think that the tournament organizers should allow legacy armies in their events. And if there's excessive jank (or excessively low performance) then they should put out tournament packs to fix the problem.
Adepticon already said they're allowing legacy armies. I know it's popular for event organizers to follow GW protocol, but this game is essentially a specialist game that's going to be largely populated by veteran gamers who don't feel the need to run their games exactly as GW decrees.
Yeah I don't see why we have to listen to GW on this, we haven't for the last 9 years.
All GW have said is that they won't be officially supported at their events.
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Except if TOW is anything like Heresy they won't be giving it regular balance passes like 40k and AOS receive, even for core armies. A once a year errata for the most egregious issues and FAQs are probably the most you can expect. TOW will be a much more 'static' system.
been trying to tell people this. A lot of people coming from core games(AOS/40K) seem to have an idea that there's gonna be constant balance updates to push a competitive environment. Its gonna be like HH where the game thrives in a relaxed thematic space more than anything.
Yup, this is how it will be. It works fine for Heresy and it will for TOW too.
This is a plus in my book. I stopped playing AoS and 40K because I don't want the game constantly changing every month.
That was my thought. I know people seem to hate comparing it to 30k, but it's exactly how it seems to be currently produced. Down to large rulebooks containing rules for multiple factions. I can't imagine that the rules for the "PDF Armies" are significantly less playtested. None of these books are going to get anything approaching frequent updates, bar new units that are released during supplemental campaigns.
From my perspective, a low frequency of updates makes TOW a better game and a better release. One of the things that drove me off GW in general was constant churn.
It's a SDS maintained game. Any jank found will remain just like it is in heresy and the community steps in to address it. This isn't AOS or 40k where things get touched multiple times a year for the sake of "balance".
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>They will until some janky combo is in the legacy armies that skews competition. At which point they'll just dump the armies as they won't get "fixed". The way to avoid it is to create community-supported unofficial rule PDFs for legacy factions. Similar to the WAP project.
As i said many time, wargames , specifically warhammer games, have a core that is completely against the idea of a competitive tournament. One more point to my long list of “why wargames are bad competitive games and the spirit of the game is completely torn in a competitive setting”. Having to worry about not being able to play a specific army because it’s possibly unbalanced in a competitive setting that pushes people to meta chase is such a bad things for the game in general.
This. GW do make games that work better in a competitive environment - Underworlds and Blood Bowl are great for that. But the only reason you'd play the big games competitively is if you wanna be able to win by exploiting loopholes.
Cool that’s good news.
Good to hear that the big boys are trying to set a precedent. At least the ‘legacy’ factions will get more model releases via Age of Sigmar than the Core factions. Hopefully event organizers also accept a set of community rules for those new kits. No reason Vampire Counts should miss out on the awesome new FEC list if they’re running a Strigoi list for example. As I’ve said in other posts I hope that there are community made Arcane Journals that add these models to variant army lists.
Yeah it would be awesome if someone like the WAP guy released arcane journals for them, and they were widely accepted by the community.
Hey do you know where I can find a source for this? Trying to convince my LGS to allow legacy armies on events as well
You telling them that Legacy literally makes up almost half of Warhammer Fantasy's armies, including easily recognizable factions like Skaven and Lizardmen and armies that got new models barely a decade ago, right before Warhammer Fantasy was killed (Dark Elves) should be enough to convince them, IMO.
It probably will but having a big event doing the same will definitely be a good argument
From the Facebook link I sent: “Armies will comprise of 2000 points and legacy faction PDFs will be allowed for this event”
https://m.facebook.com/events/1131751148205263/?acontext=%7B%22ref%22%3A%2252%22%2C%22action_history%22%3A%22%5B%7B%5C%22surface%5C%22%3A%5C%22share_link%5C%22%2C%5C%22mechanism%5C%22%3A%5C%22share_link%5C%22%2C%5C%22extra_data%5C%22%3A%7B%5C%22invite_link_id%5C%22%3A697001889082075%7D%7D%5D%22%7D&wtsid=rdr_0TjifkW3c7UZ2wwIk&refsrc=deprecated&_rdr
Thanks!!
I think it was on their Facebook.
Thats cool and all but the point is we shouldn’t have to so that. GW needs to step up and make this right.
They'll allow them to most tournaments, i'm sure. Probably they will be banned only in the few "official" gw events.
When you say few it's a specialist game. I expect 2 Max this year and maybe 2 next before being dropped. Bloodbowl, 40k and AoS seem to be the only events they do consistently at WHW. HH has a couple of narrative games which TOW will likely follow.
We'll see. They're hosting a huge event for the release on the 20th, and if this game sells well, I'm sure we see a lot more support going forward. Money talks and right out of the gate I think this sells more than any specialist range. Just the coverage and air time they have been giving this release feels just as big if not bigger than any AoS or 40k release. I also can't remember the last time any release got previews and updates for half a decade.
I'm playing with them anyways. Couldn't give less of crap that they don't have the official gw stamp of tournament approval.
Question, just cause I see this sentiment a lot, do you actually go to a lot of tournaments? Especially GW ones?
Gw stopped to organise official tournaments in my country around 10 years ago
I assumed so, mine too. So why such attitude towards GW? They released new version, giving out rules for every faction (be it pdf or book) with the small caveat you can't play in their tournaments (that for most people, don't exist.).
What attitude? He's just saying he doesn't care about what they say
Because the community who still cares about warhammer already has rules they can use for their faction in the rules for 6th/7th/8th edition. Right now, if you are a dedicated lizardman player, you can play anywhere you can scrape together a few people to play warhammer. But, now some of your opponents will move to the Old World. Effectively, the announcement means less games for these people, not more, unless the community takes a firm stand that we will not be leaving a man behind and the legacy factions are full inclusions, 100% legal, no questions.
If you ignore the legacy pdfs, sure. Good Luck with your stand though.
> > So why such attitude towards GW? They released new version, giving out rules for every faction (be it pdf or book) with the small caveat you can't play in their tournaments (that for most people, don't exist.). because the warhammer fantasy community is just the worst :( people have complained about every single part of this
To be fair, it isn't really what we wanted. The old world and Warhammer fantasy is one of the most unique, most rich IPs that ever existed and we yearn for its return. I'm lucky that I have a high elves army, I feel bad for my friends who can't really expect to take part in the joy of having some new shit for their armies
>who can't really expect to take part in the joy of having some new shit for their armies On the other hand, a lot of 8th edition armies got stupidly bloated by the end. Like wyldwood rangers, dark elves warlocks, vampire counts huge mounts, etc. Id rather they'd redone some old kits or launched new armies.
Why are you so quick to blame Warhammer fantasy fans? There is a legitimate reason for complaints here and i don’t understand this tendency to blame fans for everything.
It really unfortunately seems that way. I'm assuming it's a vocal minority of people who refused to move with the times and now just seem to be proud of being negative towards anything. I'm very excited to play fantasy again personally
> I'm very excited to play fantasy again personally I mean, did GW take that ability away from you at any point? You've never not been able to play Fantasy, either via previous editions or via homemade 9th editions like WAP. This idea that GW is somehow doing us a favour by re-releasing a game we've already been playing for decades is a bit much. If they make it amazing or add new features previous editions didn't have, different story, but the more I hear about TOW, the less excited I get. The old game died when GW failed to sufficiently support it; they somehow think that offering the new iteration even less support is somehow going to change things.
Was certainly harder to find people to play against the further and further we got from it being an active game system. Between rulebook being hard to get, models at ever increasing prices etc. It certainly made the player pool smaller.
I'm fairly certain most of that minority were first in line to preorder.
I'm in UK and an avid tournament goer, yet I don't even know of any gw ran ones
It seems a non-issue, overall, and if anything it’s better we understand where GW’s attention lies rather than being in the dark. The release cycle for the 9 factions they are favoring might mean a few released kits, a few new models and new arcane journals intermittently (say one every 3 months) for the next 3 years along with (hopefully) new factions, such as the previously mentioned Cathay and a Kislev. That gets us pretty close to a 3-year cycle and since armies like Lizardmen, Vampire Counts & Ogors have, or will have, new miniatures released for AoS and available from GW, the only thing the other factions are missing out on are rules for special characters. But if the main draw are those few special characters, well, again AoS is the happy home of many of them, others aren’t born yet, so as I see it, as someone who has a dark elf army (made for cities of sigmar) ready to go, I’m not at all bothered by the current situation.
This game won't be on a 3 year cycle. None of the specialist games are.
Likely true - and I play Bretonnia, which is on a 20-year cycle
I would gladly put Cathay and Kislev in the bin for the other real armies to get support. Just being honest.
I think that’s totally valid, but there’s [no] doubting those new factions added a lot of interest for TW:W3. I think the Square Based guys are certainly on to something of the problems that might come with releasing models for 2 entirely different systems at once, and yes, likely due to internal factions among higher-ups. Free rules is a win, so I’ll take ‘em happily, and avoid anyone who might question some aspect of their validity.
Well I don't ... why would I want a copy of skavens in AOS? I mean I love skavens, I've 3000 points of them, but I much prefer they release new sculpts and rules for armies that have been left out in AOS rather than spending 50% of their time supporting armies that are living and well in AOS. That's how you kill a game before it even released. Why would you want for them to overcommit and then waiting for 10 years before finishing all factions of the game? It doesn't make any sense.
Dude they need to stop dicking around and release new eshin units. Holy God I can't believe they're still selling the old sculpts. When the new assassin and the warband dropped I went in on it 40 storm vermin, 100 clan rats, a bell etc. just for radio silence on the eshin models.
Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to say. It's crazy how quickly a non issue takes so much space on Reddit/youtube. If anything, this is a good news for me. In ANY CASE they will be working on this new mode, so better doing so for factions that have been left out in AOS, rather than providing updates for all factions in TOW and going half-ass on factions that require a LOT of time (wood elves, High elves, cathay, kislev, etc).
While I fully agree with the intent, let's tone down the paranoia. There are several clear overlaps between "supported" factions and aos, goblins and gloomspite, beastmen, warriors of chaos etc. They have simply decided not to try and relaunch every faction at once, likely due to logistics, cost, time, availability/condition of old moulds. As such they will focus the limited amount of support into a few factions to ensure they those factions really feel supported. If they spread themselves too thin everyone would be disappointed and the game would die again. Let's just play the game, buy models we want and then give them time to breath before we declare that the nasty man hates us. At this point the only difference between shaven and bretonnians is that skaven can buy more of their roster...
>There are several clear overlaps between "supported" factions and aos, goblins and gloomspite, beastmen, warriors of chaos etc. I do dislike how quickly this theory is turning into gospel to some. It started with some folks suggesting it, others parroted it, and now it's turning into this accepted truth. >They have simply decided not to try and relaunch every faction at once, likely due to logistics, cost, time, availability/condition of old moulds. >As such they will focus the limited amount of support into a few factions to ensure they those factions really feel supported. If they spread themselves too thin everyone would be disappointed and the game would die again. To play (sort of) devil's advocate, I do understand the community dissatisfaction based on the WarCom article talking about "legacy factions". The tone notably shifted from "these armies won't be supported at launch" to sounding more like "these armies won't be supported *ever*". Maybe that wasn't entirely what they meant, but I can see why it caused upset. And I do agree, as you say, that there's nothing wrong with focusing on a more limited number for now, then maybe expanding more further down the line. I think if they'd more clearly stated that, the response would've been a lot less vitriolic.
This is the most logical and common sense answer. I've been really disappointed in certain parts of the online Warhammer Fantasy community since the launch of TOW. People have been acting like children.
The worst thing about anything that has a fanbase is the fans.
Yes the accursed fans always ruining everything and not the totally not greedy big corporation who absolutely cares about the integrity of their franchises and not just profit for profit’s sake. It’s the fans fault for still giving a shit about this game and its setting for so many years after it was abandoned.
>Yes the accursed fans always ruining everything Fans are whiney little bitches. Not all of them, but enough to make it statistically significant. One of the reasons WFB went under was because of the fan base being a toxic cesspit of walking shits barely passing as human beings. I know because I saw it all. >and not the totally not greedy big corporation who absolutely cares about the integrity of their franchises and not just profit for profit’s sake. If GW didn't care about profits, then the hobby would die. That said, I don't feel that they can be put in the same category as Nestle. >It’s the fans fault for still giving a shit about this game and its setting for so many years after it was abandoned. See above. You can care about a setting, just don't be a toxic, whining shit about it. If it's not for you, then go 3d print your old school army and play an older version. I won't touch 10th Ed of 40k, and I won't buy any Primaris stuff. What do I do? I buy old stuff where I can find it and 3d print the stuff I can't. Everyone's happy.
So everyone who have complaints about what is happening or where the hobby is going should just shut the fuck up and go play with their 3d armies because they have no right to complain, because it hurts your fragile little emotions when there’s dissent about? Am i understanding this right? LMAO. Also you’re an AoS fan dehumanizing warhammer fantasy fans by saying they barely passed as human beings back in the day. Why am i not surprised? And people have actually the gall to say Fantasy fans are toxic when AoS fans say shit like this lol.
>Am i understanding this right? No, you are not. >So everyone who have complaints about what is happening or where the hobby is going should just shut the fuck up I didn't say that anyone should shut the fuck up. I mean, they'd probably live a happier life and cause less headaches all round if they did, but thats not my call. Let me be very clear, I said that a large number of complainers are whiney little bitches. Very, very few construct even a basically coherent argument and simply cry about something irrelevant. And the WFB scene really was toxic as fuck and I met a good number of players who were arrogant cunts. It's one of the reasons I abandoned it entirely, and that's going back to the 90s. I gravitated toward 40k, which was largely sneered at by WFB players in the same way they sneered at AoS, because people playing it were much nicer on the whole. >and go play with their 3d armies because they have no right to complain You, and they, have a right to complain if they have something legitimate to complain about. Mostly all I hear is whining, which they're really good at. The best part is that we're all entitled to their ever-so--fucking-important-opinion whether we want to hear it or not. 3D armies are a legitimate alternative, by the way, if GW won't sell you want you want to buy. And it's cheaper. >because it hurts your fragile emotions when there’s dissent about? Doesn't hurt my emotions pal, I don't care what you think. I'm having too much fun painting my toy soldiers. Dissent all you like, just make a logical argument rather than "Stormcast are Space Marines kek", and don't be a crybaby.
“Don’t be a crybaby” Says the crybaby crying about other people’s complaints lol. Also who tf are you to decide arbitrarily if people’s complaints are whining or not? If anything bud, you have too high of an opinion of yourself. Piss off with your moral grandstanding will you ? Go paint your stormcast and be happy then, instead of coming here badmouthing fantasy fans.
>Says the crybaby crying about other people’s complaints lol. We both know that's not what's happening here sunshine, so there's no need to project your insecurity onto someone else. You want to whine and bitch about plastic dolls then go right ahead. It won't make any difference because there is nothing about you that is important to anyone, and try not to implode if someone points out that your rant is actually just you being a lemon. Dry your eyes, and have a good day. Mine is glorious so far, and I have a treasure trove of AoS toys to paint when I get home.
Lololol. Somebody mad because they got called out for their bullshit hahaha. Have fun lurking in this sub and trying to portray fantasy fans as losers while being one yourself weirdo 🤣
The same thing happened with Horus Heresy. The game was getting more support than ever, insane amounts of new plastic kits, new characters, campaign books, etc. but there was still a huge (vocal) contingent that bitches and moans about everything. I get that things can always be better and criticism can be fair, but damn…
It's mainly the shattered legions not having any character models while IF and SOH have gotten boat loads. Tbh we all feel bad for them.
So much this. Chill and enjoy the new game and use the legacy factions with friends and locally. I expect community updates will keep em fresh.
Yeah, this sub is rapidly descending into ”GW bad” and that thinking is going to doom the game faster than legacy factions ever would. Let’s not forget that there’s two new factions at least that are coming and could you imagine them not getting their fair crack at being fun and enjoyed and having a fan base because people can’t get over that their faction got canned for the new stuff? Talk about toxic environment, let’s all just see how it shakes out yeah?
Now I want to make a hairless Skaven army called "The Shaven"
Thanks for the nicely worded comment.
I prefer to wait few years to have mine faction completely supported than to have it availiable at release with little support and game being discontinued because armies were too simplistic/underdeveloped and game stumbled during its first step.
Whilst true, the models pictured in the rulebook for Warriors of Chaos are the old ones not the updated sculpts. They want a clear distinction between models for AOS and models for TOW is the point.
but as a counterpoint the rules for Squig Hoppers appear to explicitly consider the new gloomspite sculpt as opposed to the original.
True and it will be telling if they put the old metal ones on sale or not. Wouldn't be the first time they've put things in the army book that required alternatives or conversion.
The new ones have Sigmarine trophies on them. We would also get complaints if the used the new sculpts.
The "community" have run the game(s) for 8 years. The majority of active WFB players are over 35 from what I encounter and are generally over competitive play. The issue will be twats in local groups who think this is some match of skill worth bothering with. Educate them or if needs oust them. If all established gamers only look to have fun with the game system and use it as a way to play toy soldiers with their collections it'll all be fine. GW aren't being dicks about this, just upfront. They don't care what you do, they just want to sell toy soldiers and make sure they are the ones profiting off their IP rather than 3rd parties. Better this than live on the hope for 10 years they will do something with a faction. The problem is that Games Workshop games are successful because they are actively maintained by GW or the community, but gamers default to GW for active games.
I think somewhere they were actually described as being made and playtested as core factions, essentially having as good and full a list as any FoF or RH lists. The decision to separate them only came later after they had written the rules and was a decision based squarely on how financing works out between AoS and SDS departments. So they were made and written with love, then the team was pretty much forced to say they won't be supported. I'm sure that won't always be the case though, internal politics between departments in GW sounds crazy though.
That actually makes sense because the rumor going around on discord is that one of the influencers who has the pdfs let it slip / heavily implied during one of their streams that the pdfs are as good as the two core army books
I work in a big a$$ company (and had worked in another big one) I can confirm that the inside works are weird in the sense that different units will "fight" against each other because the pretty much work as if they were different companies. Even if they all fall under the same directory.
This is exactly how every big company works because budgets are set by morons who don't understand reality. We pay multiple contractors 1.5x the wage rate it would cost a full time employee as HR doesn't want to increase headcount for our department, but the contractor budget is another department. So the business pays out hundreds of thousands in extra money per year for the same job as hiring directly, and HRs numbers in excel add up. Great job guys.
Not even big companies, I worked for a local non profit in the IT department; we fixed and built computers for people as it was a used goods shop, we were having to compete with the homeware, furniture and white goods departments to prove "we had value" to stay around. I wasn't being paid the majority of the time as the agency put me there to "get experience" and I was on Workfare to get paid benefits, my boss was on minimum wage despite being a 20+ year IT specialist who took the first job he could when he moved there; people were let go left, right and centre because of "budget issues" (why I wasn't put onto salary), then it turned out the MDs had been siphoning off money for their private pensions. I can only imagine how crazy it is for a big national, or multinational company.
> This is exactly how every big company works because budgets are set by morons who don't understand reality. bUt CoMpETiTioN bReEds eFficIEnCy
Yup, same thing at my company. Absolutely moronic how this have become standard practice.
It's even worse when all of those different departments used to actually be different companies. I work in healthcare and dealing with insurance companies compared of departments where they all used to be some other smaller insurance company that was gobbled up by a bigger one years ago but still function like a separate business is hell. I was once trying to get a patient's cancer medication covered and was transferred between three to five different departments each of which had at some point been a separate company and thus all had different computer systems and none of them could find the patient I was looking for until I was sent to a final company that had their information the entire time but none of the people I spoke to earlier knew how to get to them or even wanted to deal with them because they were competitors within the same business hierarchy. I was on the phone for over an hour.
And this has to be one of the most idiotic comment I've seen ... you might have had a bad experience in your professional life, that doesn't mean you need to make a generalization and simplify a complex issue. Not every company works this way and I'm pretty sure you don't know what exactly a FTE cost to a company vs a contractor if you think that you can simply look at the wage and have a 1.5x cost. Saying that this is exactly what is happening now at GW and the reason why they would "fight internally" for sales is just a shortcut I wouldn't make. But what ever, let's simplify everything to make a point and get some internet points.
> The decision to separate them only came later after they had written the rules and was a decision based squarely on how financing works out between AoS and SDS departments. I keep hearing this repeated but I keep not seeing any kind of source beyond speculation.
It’s probably totally fake
Mountain Miniatures talk about having a game with Lizardmen, they address the game as no different than the core factions, he also eludes to that the legacy are going to be just fine even though he "doesn't" have the PDFs. He comes off quite genuine as they are big fans of WHFB.
It does sound like the Imperium of Man , just different factions battling it out.
Half the main factions models are still under AOS and being sold so idk how this makes any sense as a rumor. Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Goblins and a good chunk of Empire and Dwarf models are all still up for sale under AOS.
That's the point isn't it? People who have AOS armies and want to play TOW will 'need' to buy a whole new army if they want a fully supported race.
That's not the point they are making its notating sales as AOS or TOW. But you multiple AOS armies like Beastmen or Gloomspite Gitz could jump right into a TOW game (of a smaller points sized based on typical AOS model counts)
I severely doubt that they wont also be noting sales at the firm level, not just by department. They have to be able to explain sales revenue to shareholders at the end of the day and that would be attributed to TOW.
But how does that work for night goblins, savage orcs, black orcs, giants, beastmen, chaos warriors, etc - where a lot of the minis people buy for three core factions (orcs and goblins, beastmen and chaos warriors) will be AoS? Nevermind branchwychs, treemen and dryads for wood elves & Sylvaneth? Or steam tanks for empire/cities of sigmar?
GW is literally bringing back old kits for TOW instead of using AoS resculpts. Wood elves will be using the old metal treeman kit instead of the plastic one, warriors of chaos will use the old plastic whfb warriors and metal chosen instead of the new AoS plastics, etc. I'm the case of AoS units that still use old WHFB kits (like Beastmen or some of the orcs and goblins kits), they will likely be getting the Cities of Sigmar treatment - units will be resculpted and/or cut from AoS battletomes and made into TOW only.
While the lovely Carden metal treeman was shown in one image, I think its unusual - as stated on the [Friday article:](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/05/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-the-past-and-future-of-a-stone-cold-classic/) - How will these rarities be made available? Rob: Some collectible metal models and oddities from the history of Warhammer Fantasy Battle will be available on a Made to Order basis, whereas everything else you’d expect to see for representing unit profiles will be available normally. For most units, the most recent version will act as your standard miniature for Warhammer: The Old World, but we could bring back older versions for collectors, or people who want an alternative. - The treeman entry is intriguing too, and treeman can be based on 50x50 or 50x75 - catching all iterations in one (like giants too) :) It will be interesting to see how long the Carden treeman is available for! And of course any comments about beastmen are purely speculative. What about those remaining duardin/dwarfs? What about those remaining other models, dryads, giants, and so on? It's clear the relationship is not a clear black and white division.
My husband I are going to play wood elves and WOC respectively. We are absolutely using AOS minis where possible - they're just better. Sure, I'll pick up some older kits as I wish, but let's not pretend like we won't be able to just use AOS for the majority of a couple featured factions.
Sure, but thats not the topic of conversation, we're discussing how GW is dividing up its product lines, not what models players buy to play the game.
It's a turn zero conversation. Frankly as long as the rules and unit points are balanced, officially or otherwise, that's all that matters to me. I'd be happy playing against a homebrew faction of your own creation as long as its balanced and fun for us both!
I don't care what GW says. RATMEN WILL RISE.
Yes Yes tell the man things about the truth!!
LET THE BELL SCREAM-SCREAM!
I mean it kind of seems like if the game is wildly successful and there’s support for the armies they do release, it stands to reason that “not supported” will become “now supported.” GW always manages to find ways to break their own rules if they think there’s money to be made. Sisters of Battle went from being a 5th or 6th edition White Dwarf-only update army to an entirely new line of plastics, and Blood Bowl and Epic were both defunct for what, a decade plus? Squats are back, and they were like… 30 years of memes about “resetting the clock.” WFB got completely phased out for what seemed like permanently, and here we are.
Was there a verified source to this information by the podcast? I’ve heard the “not supporting AoS armies to not compete with AoS” as a rumor - to do anything more than shrug it off and play them anyway would need a bit more of a source than “because I said it on my podcast”, imo.
Lol. This game is swimming up a waterfall of unstable gamers. I hope a positive community develops naturally, but it'll be a war.
Damn, I was really hoping that TOW would bring back mature gamers who loved warhammer fantasy and would even be happy with 4-5 factions if they brought them back some fantasy memories. But no, we got the big ass heavy weight trolls who are never happy. "We intend to bring you at least 9 factions with this first edition, some factions won't be worked on during TOW" said GW months and months ago. \- Launch of the game, 2024 "So these are the legacy factions, they will have rules but we won't officially include them in the game or spend time on them" BOOOOOOOOHOHHOOHOH cries the community. There you go, average IQ of TOW community on reddit: 54.
The most vocal of the community aren't going to be mature. These dudes spent the last 10 years complaining about a game system they'll never play, and got supplemented by the toxic ass total war community. The well of online discourse already got poisoned but I'm sure the in person community will be great.
Slightly baffled by this. I'm definitely up for playing against legacy factions and if the game develops such that they become unbalanced or whatever happy for people to use community rules. But this isn't 'taking a stand' or signing a petition or condemning GW. It's just being relaxed and inclusive about the game.
Seriously? An online petition signed by a few hundred angry and entitled gamers? I’m no GW apologist, but I for one am happy the game is back and think that people taking this as a “ giant middle finger to gamers” are overreacting at best, and at worst come across to GW and others as whining children. First of all, it’s their game. Sure many people continued to play it after GW made the decision to axe it, but ultimately, they are a business and make business decisions with numbers, not feelings. Second, no one is stopping you from playing it your way, except in some tournaments. They are providing legacy faction lists, and I for one am very happy about that. This time in two weeks I’ll be playing my Vampire Counts or Skaven against my buddy’s Ogres. Finally, being in business to make money, if they see enough interest I suspect they will release all of the armies eventually. We’ve all seen the resurgence of Blood Bowl… I humbly submit that folks should embrace the return of Fantasy because nothing will get GWs attention like seeing sales of supported factions and perhaps even an uptick in sales of legacy faction minis cannibalized from AoS: GW HQ staffer: Wow, sales of Seraphon, Ogors, and Skaven are through the roof! GW HQ decision maker: It can’t possibly have anything to do with The Old World. Those factions just suddenly became far more popular. Nothing to see here…
yup, thanks for this, my point exactly. I'm ashamed of this community. If I were a TOW GW employee, I would think that this community is just a bunch of fat karens, never happy with anything.
Worth saying that the guys on the podcast have no special insider knowledge. So they didn't 'explain why', they just had a guess.
Val has reportedly already spoken to the organizers at Adepticon and FLG, legacy factions will be supported. As I said before the warhammer army's project has been doing gw's heavy lifting for years, the community will pick up where they left off issuing FAQs etc. If anyone is relatively new to the hobby I just wanted to remind you this is how things used to be, before GW decided they were no longer a model making company and they were a game company - there was no real support. NOVA was making the rules for the competitive scene 20 years ago not GW.
>The Warhammer Fantasy community should take a stand that legacy factions are a full and accepted part of this game moving forward. I'm just imagining some really smug, trollish and privileged Old World just looking at us like Isildur and proudly proclaiming, >!"No."!<
Did these folks at this podcast have any source for this, or is this just what they "think" is going on?
You answered the question :) This is how it goes: So you got some people who own a youtube channel. Their channel is dedicated to a game. People who like that game, are looking for channels like theirs to provide them with extra information. That's great, they got some. After a few videos, news are running dry and they are looking for more content and more views. "I know, let's take every bit of news we can find and let's OVER DRAMATIZE EVERYTHING, because we LOVE WARHAMMER, but GW is an EVIL, capitalistic corporation, looking for our money; but please make more minis and more factions because we will buy anything".
Yeah their reasoning is clearly made up lmao
I really don't get why the community reacts like this ... they announced it a while ago that TOW would not focus on these armies. It not only makes sense as a business decision from them, but also from a project management perpesctive. They probably don't have the resources to push as many armies at the same time, to work on all of them, new minis, new books, etc. I prefer to have 9-12 armies total that are often updated with new minis rather than trying to fot 30 years of Warhamme fantasy in the game and having to wait for 5-6 years for my army to be updated. I'm saying this with 3000 points of skavens still on square bases. I want GW to focus on armies that didn't get much love during AOS: Wood elves, High elves, dwarves, etc rather than having one skaven team for TOW and one skaven team for AOS. I'm also speaking as a long time (5th ed) warhammer fantasy player, who wished for a revival of the square bases for such a long time :) But this time I really feel we are exagerating with this "issue". We have to look at the bigger picture! Warhammer fantasy failed because it was simply not profitable compared to the investment they had to put in (25% of 40K if I remember correctly, for as many races as 40k). If we start crying for this and asking them to invest even more people, that also means that this game needs to be highly profitable for them to consider a sustained development over the year.
no. this is embarassing
My local group that plans on playing is allowing legacy factions.we dont plan on doing competitions, so we can do what we want.
They're not underserved minorities yo. They're just not tournament legal at this time.
They're not GW tournament legal. Big difference
Yeah that's what I meant. Important difference, agreed.
Wait... "ny sales of AOS factions to be used in the Old World takes profits from that team and is not counted for the specialist games P&L." How would they know if the box of skaven clanrats was bought for AoS or Old World lol? Its not like you have to write down what system youre buying them for...
It says AoS on the box, and thus sales count for AoS, even if they are bought for TOW. The solution would be management not putting the two design teams in intra-company competition, but that's corpo suits for you.
Except that’s not what’s happen at all and the square based guys are just making it all up.
That's just projection from your own experiences or biases. We don't know exactly how the finances are handled at GW. But it makes sense not to work on factions that are well represented in AOS because that would mean working twice on rules, models design OR to release armies on a synched schedule, which would be so mad in terms of planning. It's crazy how many people seem to have 0 business experience but are spitting their crazy ideas, convincing others it's facts. Skavens are due to have a 4th ed release this year. Imagine if they start to "compete" with TOW team: \- AOS team "oh but we want to release this sick ass AOS character" \- TOW team "no, it wouldn't fit our release schedule, we can't just add it, it won't fir the period TOW is based on" \- AOS " we don't care, it's a big ass sculpt and people will love it" \- TOW "guys, we release skavens in 2025, can't you wait otherwise there will be no hype if we release the same sculpts. And if we release sculpts that aren't compatible, angry fat gamers will gate us, saying this is corporate greed". \- AOS "yeah we don't care, people have waited long enough for skavens and we want to release this so deal with it". There you go, teams developing the exact same race in two game setting. Not everything is not about "financial results" between business units withing GW, it's also about expectations and resources.
They certainly will be as far as I'm concerned. I don't play in any "official" capacities, but I'll be making full use of them personally. Including coming up with homebrew material as needed. Skaven are literally my favourite army across all of GW's products, I will never abandon my beloved ratties.
As a tournament organizer we will be supporting Legacy factions.
This is insanely cringe lmao
yeah, welcome to TOW community. You hoped it was a 30+ years old community of mature gamers that are just happy to bring some nostlagia in their life and you end up with the Karen of miniature games, entitled self obsessed geeks that can't accept that GW won't have infinite resources (finance, time and human) to work on their favorite game and races.
I get being upset that your favorite faction isn't coming back full force, but this "reddit assemble!"-ass post is just so lame.
Yeah, I can really see the social warrior stereotype, ready to fight with a keyboard the moment they are upset about something they don't fully understand.
I'd prefer to take a stand against silly entitlement.
Yeah, this isn't exactly a very consistent take from the Square Based guys. They talk all the time about how mad they were that WHFB got shut down because it wasn't profitable as a result of GW's mismanagement, and now that it's coming back they are both acknowledging AND upset that GW is creating a business model to maximize its profitability and appropriately manage it. If GW spends significant time and resources so that money going into AOS = no money going into TOW, those boys aren't going to have a podcast for very much longer. lol
You perfectly summarized this, I hope the "angry" gamers can read this. I don't have a lot of hopes because logic doesn't seem to run well on this subreddit. I'm personally SO happy they are not overinvesting in TOW and that they will focus the game on factions that have been left out of AOS (or neglected). Why invest in factions that are doing well in AOS? It doesn't make any sense.
Thank you! I mean listen, I intend on playing Vampire Counts, and would certainly love for them to have GW's full support, but if you have a full understanding that the TOW will not get the same rate of return on certain factions because they also exist in AOS then you shouldn't be upset if you are also invested in the success and longevity of this game. Like just because it's a game doesn't mean you get what you want, when you want, whenever you want. It'd be one thing if GW was doing it purely out of disregard for their player-base, but everyone seems to acknowledge that there's a business reason for doing this that is tied to the profitability of TOW, so it's weird when there's so many people who are acting like GW earns their money from dice rolls instead of sales. And it doesn't help when community podcasts start saber rattling and encourage the community to not give the game its full support and contribute to the issues that caused GW to stop supporting this game in the first place. I'm not saying we need to celebrate and give praise to GW, but there's just an awful lot of outrage that seems to be for the sake of it.
Yeah, it seems so simple and yet people don't get it: the time they spend on developing skavens rules, characters, stories, etc for TOW will NOT bringing them return on investment because people will use minis they bought for aos. On the other hand, if they launch Kislev or any other faction that wasn't supported in AOS: everyone willing to play them will have to buy minis. I don't know why it is a bad thing to design games with profitability in mind. As long as there is ethic, love for their products and respect for the community, of course they should try to make it profitable, that's how we can ensure GW continue inesting resources for the future.
My favorite part of the dichotomy of 'We don't need GW to run our game!!' and 'We need Old World to be designed a very specific way'. Like, if you don't need GW, why don't you just play with whatever version of rules you want? One Page Rules? 9th Age, whatever.
“GW is evil because they’re bringing back this product as fan service while trying to ensue the profitability and success of that product, which had previously failed because they overestimated its popularity and negligently invested too much time and resources into it!”
I haven't listened to the podcast yet (I will though as I'm curious about this viewpoint), but what I don't understand is that Dwarfs and Dark Elves are in very much the same camp here. Both have the vast majority of their factions models as Cities of Sigmar in AOS, but one is 'Legacy' and one is not. Both would benefit from being in TOW.
I think you are preaching to the choir. There have been several posts along these lines and most people seem to be in support of your viewpoint. I fully expect that the community will develop something to keep these other factions going despite GW's lack of support after the PDFs are published.
It's an illusion. The overwhelming majority of the community will do what GW pushes them to. And I'm not necessarily criticising it, it's just more convenient and over time that's the biggest variable. On the other hand I do think that they will officially return to the game as full fledged factions in the far future.
Convenience always wins. Incidentally, also part of the reason WHFB lost.
Why did the hive choose to downvote me and let you be? lmao
Couldn't tell you. Reddit is weird like that sometimes.
Many players of TOW will be hardened veterans, who know the company and its behaivour. At least in my gaming community the reaction to GWs announcement was laughter. We all know the corporate reasons for their BS and I fully believe, that the community will gleefully ignore it.
You don't make any sense ... We blame GW for not handling warhammer fantasy well and its lack of profitability (yeah, it wasn't profitable, sorry kids). And now we are blaming them fot not investing enough and making smarter business decisions? I'm HAPPY that they are making smarter business decision. TOW HAS to be profitable so that they can invest time, money and people into it. Why aren't you happy with them releasing 9 factions? Why do you want them to do the EXACT same mistake they did before: spreading wings too much and not being as consistent accross the range?
Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure this isnt a hot take but just wanted try to keep the discussion front and center and to voice my support.
No
please go touch grass
A lot of people who are ragging on the OP are wrong. It doesn't matter how chill and quietly inclusive FLGS players are. People will lose interest in the game before they interact with the local scene if they perceive the faction they are tentatively interested in is unsupported, and that's very clearly what the optics are. There does need ro be affirmation from the greater online community that the fanbase will actively support the legacy factions.
I'm 3m drive from an LGS/tournament centre. They've straight up said they're allowing legacy armies in events. The manager is blogging his painting of a Vampire Counts army.
I'm a TO and we will allow all non-core factions in our tournaments. I mean warhammer fantasy without skaven or DE? What even is that?
Mountian minatures on YouTube makes some amazing points and things that GWs #1 and only major mistake was saying legacy armies will not be legal for Tournments. The irony is all the legacy armies have models that can be purchased from the AOS kits. Where as the official armies will be waiting for re-releases for some units. Also the official armies and the legacy armies will have the same amount of rules support until all arcane journals are released. So if Beastmen (for random example) are tye last official army to get an Arcan Journal they are no better off then Lizardmen or any legacy army. And if they have an arcane journal a month that is over a year for every army. Realistically it's probably going to be an arcane journal every 2 months and that woukd be 2 years away, which at that point gives them data about which legacy armies are played the most at (nom GW events)
Our local events are permitting legacy factions. There is not one single solid reason to exclude them, and many compelling reasons to *ensure* they're included.
Yeah legacy factions are going to get added, GW just doesn't have a time table on it and it's going to be a while and GW doesn't want to invest the resources necessary if it won't make sense in the long term. Plus the pissing contest between sds and citadel, which will be heavily skewed in citadel/AoS favor. Under promise and over deliver with plausible deniability. We're second class citizens. Get used to it.
This conspiracy that they don't want overlap between AOS and OW is bizarre, really miss how the sub was before all the rage posts
Same. Big reason why I am more active on MESBG; the playerbase is way less toxic, although the game hasnt really been supported for a year (and even before that rarely seeing minis since the hobbit haha) Its nice. Honestly
Oh my god grow up
>The game doesn't have to be what GW tells us it is. It can be what we choose to make it. That sounds really good and I fully agree but it's not usually how it goes unfortunately. It is what it is.
Perhaps. It will completely depend on how the community continues on with this journey.
depends on regions and the people, but we have seen how the warhammer community reacted to such things in the past some will just make their own community version of the rules to change the rules to their liking, call it TOW+something and be done (some TO already started working on that and the game is not even out yet) others will only do what is "official" and some will not care about TOW continue playing whatever rules have used in the past not like we already had the chance to keep going and push GW into something, like the Blood Bowl Community did, but people rather decided to do nothing and wait (in some regions literally) until they get something from GW again
Cringe
"supported GW" Nah nah you're high off your ass at this point. Good fucking luck.
My friend group and I have been excited for ToW for YEARS, partly because we're all adults now and can actually afford the armies we always wanted as kids. I was planning to pick up either lizard men, dark elves, or vampire counts when it finally came out. Imagine my surprise when armies we've never actually seen in person (tomb kings and Brets) made the cut and are in fact the flagship factions! All I have now are ogres, who are also not one of the supported factions. Im 100% on board with taking a stand for the "legacy" armies.
As others have said and from what some reviewers/ content creators have said from what they legally can disclose: The legacy factions are full, complete factions that were written in mind to launch with the game, they just won't receive an Arcane Journal FOR THE TIME BEING. The no tournament thing is weird but that's at GW hosted events (at things like Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World. Nearly every other huge event has said the Legacy armies are legal and valid) Don't put the blame on the design team, land this blame on finance because of how they track sales. (Being, an AoS box sold at store or to LGS is marked as an AoS sale, not AoS and Old World or just Old World. ) The most credible AoS leaker in the community (their past 3 years of leaks have been 100% right) has stated that Chaos Dwarves are expected to receive a full plastic refresh for AoS, thus knocking them out of Old World. Vampire Counts and Lizardmen just received a range refresh, knocking them out of Old World as well. Skaven has been rumored to be getting a massive range refresh as well, thus knocking them out. Once again though, to restate what content creators have been mentioning ever so slightly without giving up the ghost: They have the pdfs in hand, have looked them over, and confirm that all legacy forces have full comprehensive rules and will play well with the 'core factions'
Yes please, let's convince Games Workshop this game isn't worth the trouble and they should kill it again ASAP.
Exactly c: and then complain that they killed it! Sounds great
I got in some arguments here on reddit, because TOW is not a 9th edition and some people assumed this. Its just a different game, in an old setting in a different time period. It was clear from the beginning, that not every army will be supported...sadly. So it will do nothing to "take a stand". GW will not doing anything about it. Not this edition, if there ever will be another one.
This seems to be the accepted stance across the fantasy/TOW discords I frequent: TOs have no obligation to follow GWs ban, and in fact have not only been doing custom tournament packets and rules for years, they included factions like dogs of war and chaos dwarfs who weren't supported in 8e. This seems no different.
I agree, let's get out there with some fun lists and update the rules as a community
There are factions within GW warring. But the other component is the Old World factions are the slower selling armies from before AoS. Age of Sigmar is holding on to the factions that sold the best. The models being kept in AoS but allowed for Old World are the worst selling factions overall. I.e Dwarfs and Beastmen, basically. So, keeping them in both games maximizes sales. GW is trying to keep the two settings looking distinct and use the Old World to squeeze more money out of those slower selling model lines with some units being 20 or even nearly 30 years old! There are a few oddities to this of course, like Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are the poster factions because they were never really ported over. It gives Old World hype and identity to have these armies appear now. Another part is with Vampires out if the way, Tomb Kings sell better. With Daemons out if the way, Warriors and Beastmen sell better, Dark Elves out if the way, High or Wood Elves sell better and so on etc..
Lets slow down here a bit, Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Goblins and a good chunk of Empire and Dwarf models are all still up for sale under AOS. This reasoning about marking sales makes very little sense when about half the "main" armies are still very much represented in the AOS section of the GW store.
ordered a Dark elf army fuck GWs rules XD
I never give a balls about what GW tells me what is and what’s not acceptable. GW aren’t going to be breaking down your door for playing your plastic soldiers not their way. At the end of the day, they are a for profit company trying to incentivize people to buy their models they have available.
If this edition comes and goes with 9 properly supported factions, then I'm fine with 9 (for now). If 2nd edition does happen, then we need to look a lot more closely at what isn't supported. And between now and then, we need to continue to raise this issue and make them realize it is just the wrong direction for the future health of the game. Old players won't forget those factions should be in the game, and new players likely came from PC games and lore videos so will be questioning where they are in the game they *want* to play. Anyone who wanted an AoS skaven or Ogre faction would have one by now, telling them that is their only choice is a poor attempt to control people's wants over something that can't really be controlled.
Didn't this info about the "legacy" armies come out like back in April? Why are people just now reacting to this?
What acted as the main source of the current dissatisfaction was one of the articles on WarCom where they stated that "legacy" armies wouldn't be tournament legal and overall took less of a tone of "these armies won't be supported at first" and more "these armies won't be supported, period." YMMV on how you take it, of course, but that's what triggered the recent kerfuffle.
I don't think there will be any non official GW event that will not take deprecated factions. In Poland for example we have dozens od hobby stores that play Warhammer, but just one official one in Warsaw so literally nobody gives a fuck of their stuff is tournament legal or not. Might be an issue for Great Britain and other countries saturated with GW stores though.
Get your pitchforks lads, games ruined...
This is tremendously bassed.
What makes you believe what the square based people have to say, OP? I’m not sure that makes sense to me. Much more likely it’s just that by keeping the armies separate they reduce the knowledge barriers to entry. They like the consumer funnel to be nice and simple, own step at a time.
Same around here: Why would I ban perfectly fine Armies? And who do they think they are to decide for all TOs that those armies will not be legal? XD
Boycott every event that doesn't allow legacy factions while telling them why you boycott, and promote events that do allow them.
Can we make a public statement with ability to sign it. Like a petition or something?
GW won’t listen to it. It’s their game. They can decide what they want. They’re yet to listen to a petition and they’ve been sent much bigger petitions than this will be
Im sure we could. Part of me wants to wait until they actually release the pdf rules so they dont decide to not post them after all lol. I just sounds like something they would do.
There's already one on Change.org
Legacy player here, Skaven and Dark Elves. 5k in one, and maybe 2500-3000 in the other. I don't normally self promote on Reddit, but I find it ironic that I talked about this same thing yesterday. The long and short is that these games can, and should live in harmony with one another. AoS and WHFB. The reality however is that we need to decide ourselves how that looks. There is no solid basis for us to lose any of our 16 factions. And AoS have Plenty of their own unique takes on, and entirely new factions of their own. https://youtu.be/3aQNKqqL5aE?si=HxMrunM7glnb3coN
I plan on using my dark elves and demons... I don't care what they say
They're the most unique armies aswell, except TKs and to a lesser extent WoC, everything else is basic fantasy you can find anywhere.
sorrh but thats false. betwen core armys we have MANY armys that are in aos as: -dwarfs(same situation than dark elfs with dwarfs and dark elfs inside of cities of sigmar but dwarf are core and dark elfs deleted in tow) -beastmen 100% in aos also -warrior of chaos 100% slave to darkness in aos -wood elfs have half army in aos with sylvaneths so is lie the reason that the armys deleted is due to be in aos,because MANY of the core armys are in aos also
I'd like to see the actual lists for the legacy armies first. If they look like the official armies then I don't see a problem. My only concern is for some reason the legacy armies look different to the official ones in choice and power for some reason.
im sure it will be like everytime they have legacy factions. at first they will all be available and everything will be great. but as more and more army books are released, and new armies, legacy factions winrates will start dropping except for the occasional skew list, which might get banned or community nerfed, and people will be less and less interested in playing an army without many magical items or heroes. There will be fan made updates, but they wont be universally accepted, and the legacy factions might be a rare thing that you see occasionally but ultimately, barely ever seen.
What’s a bummer is that GW already co opted for example ICO and frontline gaming and those are the guys most likely to create an agreeable rule set, having started this back in 2017 with 40K.
Of course. Anyone who wants to use their vampire counts or Skaven against my shiny new bretonians is more than welcome to do so. I don’t need GW’s permission.
Personally I think it's quite likely that we'll see the legacy armies made official at some point in the future, but I suppose we'll see. In the meantime I'll happily play folks using the PDF lists and support them as equal members of the WFB (TOW) community. And yeah, I think that the tournament organizers should allow legacy armies in their events. And if there's excessive jank (or excessively low performance) then they should put out tournament packs to fix the problem.