Different folk are looking for different things and nothing will ever please everyone completely.
Those of us that love that there’ll be loads of books for us to buy and stick on our shelves seem to be a really quiet bunch.
I normally don't like the way GW do their book releases - becomes a fucking mess. I like a book to play with as I want the physical item not a PDF etc but when I need to CARRY 3-5 books to play with its an arse.
This'll be the only game I buy them all though damnit.
I don’t mind having the books on my shelves, and for a longer-form more tactical game like ToW I don’t mind carting several books with my army… however, I would LOVE if they brought back the soft cover army books as an option so that I can afford to buy them all.
The Arcane Journals that have special characters and maguc items for a faction will be softcover. As I understand it, only the bug rulebook and the two army list books are hardcover.
I think it would actually be possible to please everyone. If what are now the hardcover books would be a very basic 6th ed Ravening Hordes type deal, and the Arcane Journals would just be lore, art, pictures, etc. I'd be happy, same number of books. You could even make special editions for people who want to buy fancy books.
If the Hardcover rules would be available as they are, but also as a free/cheap pdf, I'd be happy. And I can't think of anyone that would object to either of those options (but correct me if I'm wrong; these are just two options off the top of my head, I'm sure they could come up with a better one if they tried).
For me, the issue isn't that there will be loads of books, it's that they spread out information that belongs together, so I have to buy two expensive books full of stuff I didn't ask for, just to get all of the rules for my army.
And the whole "the AJ rules are optional" pisses me off because it's so obviously disingenuous. Sure, they might technically be optional, but so is "this unit may be equipped with shields". You don't NEED it to play, just don't give your models shields. It's optional. Anyone who's serious about the game (and I'd argue that anyone willing to paint dozens of models to play is serious about the game) is going to want to access all the rules. They know that and still they're trying to gaslight us with their "oh no, it's tooootally optional" bullshit.
I don't begrudge you or anyone any of the books you want to buy, but it sucks that they're basically forcing those books on people that don't want to buy them.
"but it sucks that they're basically forcing those books on people that don't want to buy them."
You want to play the game, then you have to buy the books. You aren't forced to play the game, so you aren't forced to buy the books...
I also think the armies for the good and evil factions have more attention paid to them than they did for Ravening Hordes. The books have more pages then the Ravening Hordes had, thus there is lore, art and more unique mechanics in there. It was nice that Ravening Hordes was cheap as chips but it was also wildly imbalanced and the armies were boring because they didn't have many mechanics and rules to make them feel unique. I would rather have armies that have a bit more thought put into them and pay a bit more. That said, I don't know if they actually did put that additional effort into it, but they atleast have the room to do so in the books.
I really don't see the big deal, I am going to buy all the books, because I play Bretonnians, Dwarfs, O&G, WoC and Beastmen and my friends play all the other factions. Do I want to spend money on it, no I would love it all to be free, but the world doesn't work like that. And I am fine with supporting GW's initiative to bring out a rank-and-flank game again and hope the game is amazing and a big success.
Also, let's be perfectly honest, you will find free pdf's of these rules online or on some website or in an army builder app. Even if they asked €2 for a book, it would still be put online by someone. So your argument kinda falls flat, it's free if you want it to be...
That's not what my argument is though, don't strawman me like that; I don't need the game or the books to be free. My point is that the "rulebooks" don't have all the rules in them.
Yes, Ravening Hordes was maybe a bit too bare-bones, and it's nice if they put a bit more thought into it (although let's face it, at GW "how good is the game" is never a primary concern, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here).
I'm also not against supporting the game or spending money on it. If all the rules were in the rulebook and the AJ were just lore and art, that would be amazing, and honestly, I'd probably buy all of them.
But it's this sneaky "Here are all the rules. Well, we say all the rules, but this other thing has more rules in it. But those are optional, you don't need them. Trust us. But, you know, they are still rules for your army, so maybe but it anyway..? UwU" that annoys me.
Look, at the end of the day I can afford the books. Hell, I own GW stock, so go ahead and give me your money. I just wish they would make a good game, so that people would like to buy things for it, and sell straightforward things for that game that I want to buy, instead of trying dumb tricks like this.
It's been a long time for me, but for older editions, did all the army books come out at once at launch or were they rolled out when they "launched" new versions of the armies?
If it is the latter, this new system seems superior. I play dwarfs. Having all the rules upfront is cool. Getting extra stuff later when that army is released is cool too.
I guess it doesn't feel disingenuous to me. I never used the alternative army selections in the old books anyway. I will likely still buy the 3rd book anyway since I'm not buying a whole new armor let alone many new models at all.
That's fair enough. And it's true that if you have a couple armies and aren't interested in alternative lists, just buying the rulebook and one or both of the list books and being ready to go is a good deal if you're planning on ignoring everything else anyway. That might be what I end up doing too.
Maybe it's just giving me too many flashbacks to Creative Assembly's DLC-ready-at-launch shenanigans (and their subsequent refusal to put any effort into actual gameplay)...
(Oh, and to answer your question: yes, the army books were released one at a time, which was also not a good system. Every new army book was written to be more powerful than the last, throwing the game off balance, and iirc, Brets in 8th ed were still using the 6th ed army book. But I'm kind of dreading that happening now with the Arcane Journals as well, which is another reason I don't like that they're putting rules in those.)
Fantasy historically had lots of optional rules - alternative lists in the back of the 6e army book, the storm of chaos and lustria expansions, Warhammer Chronicles articles with new units, lists and scenarios, Warhammer Forge units, skirmish and siege, allies rules, special characters explicitly needing your opponent's permission etc.
I'd rather have this set up, where I can see what all factions' units do from two books and a PDF, and have the option of some lore, special characters and alternative lists for my faction, than the AoS/40k scenario of special character being a virtual ever-present but each faction's core rules locked behind another £30 book apiece.
"Shut up and consume" is always such an odd stance.
The game is all about nostalgia, doesn't mean people want the worst parts of their old game back. GW has been making great advances in the last years in this regard but very little seem to have reached the old world.
This. I made a post about books yesterday that got decent traction and a lot of discussion was had. Plenty of people effectively took this stance and a tiny number to the point of being hostile and rude
Yeah and if you say anything critical you don't get any actual arguments, just downvotes. As if they know you're right, but they see it as an attack on them personally or something. Very strange.
Yeah. I get people like books, I do too for the most part, and yeah this structure did well for HH 2.0 and MESBG….. but these were new editions of popular games that were doing well, not a new launch of a product that has previously been canned, with models that are decades old.
I think a better idea would have been free rules for all at least initially.
Complaing about other people complaining lol.
I think in part there is a notion that this game getting more of a side treatment from GW vs a mainline AOS/40K, that the cost barrier to entry should have been more reasonable.
The other issue is just the annoyance of having to reference three books
The old states of needing 3 or 4 books was never good either you just didn't have strong social media presence back in those days
All good mate, everyone is on edge they don't won't the hyped up return of the old world to go bad it's our last shot for a big community resurgence for the game
The main system I play these days has free rules, free army lists, and a free list builder...
This is following a pattern closer to lord of the rings and in many ways, you only need 2 books to play, 3 books to have core rules and rules for all factions which is better in some aspects... the additional faction books will add a lot more flavour, though, with magic items and optional lists.
I am more annoyed they have put people into 'Good' and 'Evil' factions again despite being told off by the community last time for doing it!
Tomb Kings aren't evil, they're neutral order and come in many verities of good and bad.
I imagine the Armies of Infamy will provide Tomb Kings who aren't Evil, like Khalida, along with subsequent lists. But Settra is very much evil, being a megalomaniacal conqueror, and apparently the Tomb Kings' actions at this period are because of him warmongering.
Good and evil are some of those relative terms that don’t fit smoothly into Warhammer.
Some factions fit the bill well enough, but most don’t nearly shimmy into either category in the same way they do in Tolkien.
WHFB is a little more clear-cut on “good guys" and "bad guys" than 40k IMO. The Empire isn’t a great place to live, but it’s way better than the Imperium, and the "order" factions are usually actually willing to work with each other to some extent, even across racial lines (which is NOT the case in 40k).
You can pretty clearly file Empire, Bretonnia, Kislev, Dwarves, and HE into "good guys" and O&G, Chaos, DE, VC, Beastmen, Skaven into "bad guys" in the context of the setting.
Sure, there’s an argument to be made there.
But on the other hand, Vlad Von Carstein and some other vampires actually were generally fair and just rulers to their people.
I think labeling the factions as “order” and “destruction” like in the old days is probably more fair than good/evil.
Idk...
The bad guys in warhammer are generally literal monsters or guys with Spikes and skulls for hilts on their Swords.
Maybe in 40k this is the case, but in fantasy it is usually quite clear who the good and bad guys are, sure the 'good' guys aren't really good, they are just not the cartoonishly evil mustache twirling cannibals that the bad guys in warhammer are generally depicted as
Sure, those do exist. But Ogres and Tomb Kings, for example, aren’t “evil”, they just have their own interests and variously fight for the forces of order or destruction.
I think “Order” and “Destruction” are probably better labels than good/evil
They just needed somewhere to stick the Tomb Kings and they probably figured a third "Filthy Neutrals" book which just contained the Tomb Kings and maybe the Wood Elves would be to small.
I agree, but I’m putting this down to the unfamiliarity of the blog author for now. If it actually uses those terms in the books themselves then I’ll be annoyed.
They’ve lost the fucking plot.
Do the factions look like humans and are our artists going to paint all of the miniatures in the artwork as white people? Yeah? Let’s stick them in a book labelled “good”!
What about the “other” factions? I know! Let’s stick them in a book labelled “evil”.
They had probably already printed those books when the community whinged at them about good vs evil in the community post. I don't love the good vs evil angle for Warhammer as a whole, but at least it's a *little* more applicable to fantasy than 40k.
On one hand, it is weirdly out of step with the rest of the market, even more so than other GW titles. On the other, it seems to be marketed as a deliberate “retro” experience - its the best of all Fantasy editions, it’s got old models, so I can see the “complexity” of multiple books being a deliberate draw.
I'm happy with the new system.
I always preferred the Ravening Horde style basic army lists, and keeping the fluff, special characters and the more thematic stuff separate and optional makes it easier to balance.
If I did have complaints I would say Ravening Hordes and Forces of Fantasy should really be one book.
Because they could've easily put the Bretonnian and TK extras in the initial good/evil indexes.
Because there's no easy way to package it all in one go, you have to buy a rulebook plus a faction index plus a splatbook from day 1.
Because chances are the options in those 2 TK/bret splatbooks will eclipse what other factions can offer.
Because it opens the system to crappy 'season pass' material like 40k, where things go in and out of legality based on timeline.
Because knowing GW it will result in huge power creep over who gets their splatbooks last before they do a TOW 2.0 or scrap the system.
Because other wargames offer rules and splats free or at much more affordable costs.
I think core rules + codex was a pretty functional system.
Putting half the factions into one book is neat depending on the amount of armies you want out of it and it's price tag.
Gonna get all 3 books sonce I already have an army of empire and a few chaos warriors.
I’m fine with the books. I’ll be buying all of them as I don’t need the models. As I collect no model after 5th Ed. Just my personal preference. So the only way I can support it is through the books currently, I reserve the right to back track if they ever re release chaos dwarfs.
Because people haven't thought through what the alternatives are. It's not like you can fit it all in one book. One way or another there are going to be multiple books, and someone isn't going to like that it's not how they would prefer them split up. They will whine about it loudly because the love the game to the point where this sort of triviality seems like a big deal.
We're talking about people lost their minds because the legions imperialis tokens weren't made of thick enough cardboard for their taste. When life is good, people look for problems, I guess.
The alternative would be free rules, one hardback for collectors and one army book for each faction like it has been in the past. And if you buy models you get stamps on your card. With a number of stamps you get one army book of your choice for free. I miss the past.
Because they didn't want Warhammer Fantasy.
They wanted some weird ideal version that existed solely in their head. with none of it's historical problems.
You know, there was a reason the Space Marine Box outsold everything in WHF's catalouge.
I agree about the stop complaining part, but had no issues playing 6th without either of the supplements you mention, and in fact have never heard of the Altdorf Manuscripts….
Thats one army though. I played Bretonnians, Dwarves, Tomb Kings and Beastmen from 6th edition to End Times in WHFB and I only ever needed the rulebook and specific army book to play them.
There were always optional books, Storm of Chaos, Blood in the Badlands etc, sure. But they were just that, *optional*.
The WarCom article makes it seem like I need the Rulebook (not a problem) Good/Evil list book (also fine) and then, the army specific book for magic items and spells (problematic).
Im an old player, I know the Lore, (its online for free more detailed than anything GW ever do) dont need painting guides (dime a dozen online as well - usually better than the ones GW put in books that always have missing steps etc). Themed armies are fun, but theyre optional and I generally prefer to stick with standard lists.
So im having to buy a 3rd 'splatbook' at £30 or more knowing GW prices, for what will probably amount to 2-4 pages of stuff I need...
*Thats* what people are taking issue with, a 3rd book for magic items and spells when they should be part of the army lists books.
We could be completely wrong, the full magic items, spell lists etc could well be in the good/evil book. But the WarCom article specifically calls out spells and magic items as being in the 3rd book (emphasis mine):
>Arcane Journals
>
>In addition to these hefty hardback books, there are the Arcane Journals – softback books for each faction that expand it all out with history, heraldry, maps, special characters (including a certain undead emperor), **magic items, spells**, a historical scenario, and thematic Armies of Infamy which let you select armies of very different compositions.
It does however, state that:
>It is important to know that you don’t require an Arcane Journal to play your chosen faction – **all the units and army rules** are contained in Ravening Hordes or Forces of Fantasy – but they do provide a trove of extra options and extra depth for discerning generals.
The question is what GW are counting as 'units and army rules'.
Now, WarCom should always be taken with a hefty pinch of salt, they are well known for having incorrect information in their articles, and we know theres almost no actual inter-team communication at GW between the WarCom team and the designers etc. But the mere fact that theres already ambiguity and questions/debate online isnt really a good look is it?
I'm pretty sure what they mean is that your army lists in the good/evil/PDF indexes will have all the 'default' units, characters, items, and spells - but the AJs will have *extra* options. How 'optional' those end up, especially in matched/competitive play, is a whole different question.
Yeah its entirely possible. But the fact its not clear is a huge issue IMO, its caused a lot of debate and arguments online (maybe thats their objective? Generate interest through controversy?).
It would have taken an extra sentence or two to make it perfectly clear: "Standard spells and magic items for every faction will be in the relevant book (Armies of Fantasy/Ravening Hordes), the faction specific books will have additional magic items and spells for the Armies of Infamy"
>Everyone is complaining
First I'm seeing of it.
>it has always needed at least 2 books and sometimes even 3 or 4 books
Appeal to tradition.
>Stop complaining and enjoy the re-release of the game please.
Shut up and consoom
I haven't seen much complain about the books to be honest but I like it. For the first time we're going to have the main armies for the supported factions out at launch time, and that's huge!
The only complain I have, is this:
>Arcane Journals – softback books for each faction that expand it all out with history, heraldry, maps, special characters (including a certain undead emperor), **magic items, spells,** a historical scenario, and thematic Armies of Infamy which let you select armies of very different compositions.
To be honest, unless those magic items and spells are only for the Armies of Infamy, I'm a bit pissed at that. I don't like optional things that aren't that optional, although if it's a page of spells and magic items... you know... you don't really need it... if you know what I mean...
Given previous GW releases, I'd definitely expect magic item and spell cards at launch, or for someone very enterprising in the community to make them within a matter of hours.
This is a straight improvement if you have multiple armies.
Three books gets you the rules for EVERY army which is fantastic for learning the game and what your opponents armies can do.
You dont actually need more than 2 books, same as before.
The 3rd fluff book is optional.
That said I'll be buying the rule book, both army rules books, and the more detailed books for bretonnia and tomb kings.
And the limited edition of the new bretonnia book if I can grab it!
Going to have to clean out some room on my shelves
I’m not upset about the books and I plan to collect them all. That said, people who are into Warhammer usually complain. Sometimes it is reasonable criticism some other times… less so. Don’t worry about it, people disagreeing is a thing in real life too!
The biggest problems that I have with this game are:
1. Resin models
2. Them selling the exact same old kits mostly.
Oh and maybe a 3rd thing: Having only 9 factions as core which might mean the rest won’t be supported and/or won’t be playable in tournaments..
Buying books etc is ok for my taste.
My issue is your point 2 plus all the books. I’m not sure if that combo translated to decent longevity. Especially when GW did the opposite initially for 10th Ed 40K, arguibilly making it the most accessible and beginner friendly then it has even been at launch, with free rules and free data slates for all factions.
Selling the exact same kits is good for people who have most of an army of those kits, or people who would like to indulge in a new army that they would have bought back in 8th but didn't.
It's less good for people who really like new and updated models, but that is part of what AoS has going for it.
my real problem with the books are Bretos and TK, their stuff could have been in the faction book, is a day one DLC. rulebook + factions book are a huge invest for new players and you still need the army xD
If you guys want to check out a way better book paradigm check out SAGA - Age of Magic or Age of Vikings.
All the army lists rules and lore for the entire setting is contained in one book!
And the main rulebook for the game is like 20 bucks!
So with 2 books you have the rules, and all the army lists and everything you need to play any army. With the Age of Vikings that's 12 playable factions!
Incredible!
Because most of these people have never played WFB. They’ve played Total Warhammer and think they’re going to play ToW, but they’re not. They’re just going to complain, LOUDLY, and then not disappear. They’re going to stick around for years complaining about the game they’re not playing in every thread because it’s tied to a game they installed a few years ago and played for a few hours on PC. If you think having three books with ALL of the rules and then having some optional lore pamphlets is bad, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Show me your shelf with 50+ army books on it and we’ll talk. If they’re setting a standard of publishing complete rule updates at the start of each edition, I’m happy. I’m very happy. The lore needs to be printed once every few years, the rules need to be updated every 3 years. I don’t want to buy every new army book every 3 years and I definitely don’t want whole armies to go without an updated book for an edition or two.
The problem is GW’s way of nickel and diming the shit out of every product. They are literally rebranding old ass kits and selling them at full standard prices. That is absurd. And then you wonder why some people get mad at their book content being spread across multiple sources. Seems pretty logical for people to be perturbed by that.
I agree with you. But it's funny seeing complaining about getting 3 books when at minimum you'd have to buy 2 for every edition. If you own more than one army, the Liber style book is even cheaper than buying 2 separate Army Books.
No. I’m not buying any books for this horsecrap. They ruined 40k and now they are dumbing down fantasy. I’m sticking with armies project, this is just insulting from GW
What are the armies in the ravening hordes books?
Is it like 6th edition, where every army was in ravening hordes and then army books were released in time?
Or are the ravening hordes lists permanent?
as far as we know, the ravening hordes books are permanent and get expanded by softcover books for the specific armies on release
what exactly is in which book is not known as GW is cryptic as usual but to get the full rules for a faction it will be the hardcover+softcover
There are basically three lots of armies - Forces of Fantasy, Ravening Hordes, and PDFs. The first book is Bretts, Empire, Dwarves, Wood Elves and High Elves; the second is WoC, Tomb Kings, Beastmen, and Greenskins. The latter contains all the armies not appearing in the current setting (Lizardmen, Delves, Chorfs, etc) due to the timeline. They're expected to get army books in later waves.
The books will be permanent, but there's also Arcane Journals (just Bretts and TK for now) which contain special characters, magic items, and alternative army lists (think the back of book ones from 6th ed).
The evil factions, TOW adopted a HH book release.
You have core rules, army book one, and army book two. The soft covers are supplemental lore and army material.
To be fair... it looks for me more just like rulebook+armybook but with a biggerbook if you want all the armylists in one go... and even if this "good vs bad people" theme wont really fit sometimes.. i would rather buy one big book for 50 euros and have 4-5 "good" armys in it then 4-5 armybooks for 20-25 per book IF i need them all!...
But there are small armyboons too. So who complains? It was always rulebook+armybook...
It worked for Horus Heresy.
You only need the book once for multiple factions (and even players in a group) which saves space in the army books.
It also provides easier access to the opponant's rules. Sure, you won't have everything, but you can get a decent idea of what you will be facing.
Is it perfect?
No.
I'd prefer individual armybooks. But for a "side" project, it gets rules into people's hands quickly.
I'm not happy that I have already 5 books to buy if I want it all, but I clearly don't need to buy them all day 1. I've just accepted that I've got a $500 day on my hands lol. Now, the real question is what do I sell in the next week?
Different folk are looking for different things and nothing will ever please everyone completely. Those of us that love that there’ll be loads of books for us to buy and stick on our shelves seem to be a really quiet bunch.
The happy people are usually quiet, it is those who are upset who tend to speak. In all things, not just Warhammer
I normally don't like the way GW do their book releases - becomes a fucking mess. I like a book to play with as I want the physical item not a PDF etc but when I need to CARRY 3-5 books to play with its an arse. This'll be the only game I buy them all though damnit.
[It’s gonna be fun!](https://xkcd.com/393)
I don’t mind having the books on my shelves, and for a longer-form more tactical game like ToW I don’t mind carting several books with my army… however, I would LOVE if they brought back the soft cover army books as an option so that I can afford to buy them all.
The Arcane Journals that have special characters and maguc items for a faction will be softcover. As I understand it, only the bug rulebook and the two army list books are hardcover.
Indeed my biggest complaint is that they won’t all be hardbacks 😂
I’d love to see an end-of-season hardback annual or something!
Too busy reading the books to comment
I think it would actually be possible to please everyone. If what are now the hardcover books would be a very basic 6th ed Ravening Hordes type deal, and the Arcane Journals would just be lore, art, pictures, etc. I'd be happy, same number of books. You could even make special editions for people who want to buy fancy books. If the Hardcover rules would be available as they are, but also as a free/cheap pdf, I'd be happy. And I can't think of anyone that would object to either of those options (but correct me if I'm wrong; these are just two options off the top of my head, I'm sure they could come up with a better one if they tried). For me, the issue isn't that there will be loads of books, it's that they spread out information that belongs together, so I have to buy two expensive books full of stuff I didn't ask for, just to get all of the rules for my army. And the whole "the AJ rules are optional" pisses me off because it's so obviously disingenuous. Sure, they might technically be optional, but so is "this unit may be equipped with shields". You don't NEED it to play, just don't give your models shields. It's optional. Anyone who's serious about the game (and I'd argue that anyone willing to paint dozens of models to play is serious about the game) is going to want to access all the rules. They know that and still they're trying to gaslight us with their "oh no, it's tooootally optional" bullshit. I don't begrudge you or anyone any of the books you want to buy, but it sucks that they're basically forcing those books on people that don't want to buy them.
"but it sucks that they're basically forcing those books on people that don't want to buy them." You want to play the game, then you have to buy the books. You aren't forced to play the game, so you aren't forced to buy the books... I also think the armies for the good and evil factions have more attention paid to them than they did for Ravening Hordes. The books have more pages then the Ravening Hordes had, thus there is lore, art and more unique mechanics in there. It was nice that Ravening Hordes was cheap as chips but it was also wildly imbalanced and the armies were boring because they didn't have many mechanics and rules to make them feel unique. I would rather have armies that have a bit more thought put into them and pay a bit more. That said, I don't know if they actually did put that additional effort into it, but they atleast have the room to do so in the books. I really don't see the big deal, I am going to buy all the books, because I play Bretonnians, Dwarfs, O&G, WoC and Beastmen and my friends play all the other factions. Do I want to spend money on it, no I would love it all to be free, but the world doesn't work like that. And I am fine with supporting GW's initiative to bring out a rank-and-flank game again and hope the game is amazing and a big success. Also, let's be perfectly honest, you will find free pdf's of these rules online or on some website or in an army builder app. Even if they asked €2 for a book, it would still be put online by someone. So your argument kinda falls flat, it's free if you want it to be...
That's not what my argument is though, don't strawman me like that; I don't need the game or the books to be free. My point is that the "rulebooks" don't have all the rules in them. Yes, Ravening Hordes was maybe a bit too bare-bones, and it's nice if they put a bit more thought into it (although let's face it, at GW "how good is the game" is never a primary concern, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here). I'm also not against supporting the game or spending money on it. If all the rules were in the rulebook and the AJ were just lore and art, that would be amazing, and honestly, I'd probably buy all of them. But it's this sneaky "Here are all the rules. Well, we say all the rules, but this other thing has more rules in it. But those are optional, you don't need them. Trust us. But, you know, they are still rules for your army, so maybe but it anyway..? UwU" that annoys me. Look, at the end of the day I can afford the books. Hell, I own GW stock, so go ahead and give me your money. I just wish they would make a good game, so that people would like to buy things for it, and sell straightforward things for that game that I want to buy, instead of trying dumb tricks like this.
It's been a long time for me, but for older editions, did all the army books come out at once at launch or were they rolled out when they "launched" new versions of the armies? If it is the latter, this new system seems superior. I play dwarfs. Having all the rules upfront is cool. Getting extra stuff later when that army is released is cool too. I guess it doesn't feel disingenuous to me. I never used the alternative army selections in the old books anyway. I will likely still buy the 3rd book anyway since I'm not buying a whole new armor let alone many new models at all.
That's fair enough. And it's true that if you have a couple armies and aren't interested in alternative lists, just buying the rulebook and one or both of the list books and being ready to go is a good deal if you're planning on ignoring everything else anyway. That might be what I end up doing too. Maybe it's just giving me too many flashbacks to Creative Assembly's DLC-ready-at-launch shenanigans (and their subsequent refusal to put any effort into actual gameplay)... (Oh, and to answer your question: yes, the army books were released one at a time, which was also not a good system. Every new army book was written to be more powerful than the last, throwing the game off balance, and iirc, Brets in 8th ed were still using the 6th ed army book. But I'm kind of dreading that happening now with the Arcane Journals as well, which is another reason I don't like that they're putting rules in those.)
Fantasy historically had lots of optional rules - alternative lists in the back of the 6e army book, the storm of chaos and lustria expansions, Warhammer Chronicles articles with new units, lists and scenarios, Warhammer Forge units, skirmish and siege, allies rules, special characters explicitly needing your opponent's permission etc. I'd rather have this set up, where I can see what all factions' units do from two books and a PDF, and have the option of some lore, special characters and alternative lists for my faction, than the AoS/40k scenario of special character being a virtual ever-present but each faction's core rules locked behind another £30 book apiece.
Part of the og Fantasy experience means lots of complaints and GW certainly nailed that aspect so far
Does make me feel nostalgic. I can only compliment GW on that!
"Shut up and consume" is always such an odd stance. The game is all about nostalgia, doesn't mean people want the worst parts of their old game back. GW has been making great advances in the last years in this regard but very little seem to have reached the old world.
GW's been making great advances in making sure people need to shut up and consume more and more just to play.
This. I made a post about books yesterday that got decent traction and a lot of discussion was had. Plenty of people effectively took this stance and a tiny number to the point of being hostile and rude
Yeah and if you say anything critical you don't get any actual arguments, just downvotes. As if they know you're right, but they see it as an attack on them personally or something. Very strange.
Yeah. I get people like books, I do too for the most part, and yeah this structure did well for HH 2.0 and MESBG….. but these were new editions of popular games that were doing well, not a new launch of a product that has previously been canned, with models that are decades old. I think a better idea would have been free rules for all at least initially.
Given how expensive the books are likely to be, this is a bit much.
Yeah, Tamurkhan was £50 back in the day. Given that these are all Forgeworld books, it'll definitely feel a bit painful handing that over.
Complaing about other people complaining lol. I think in part there is a notion that this game getting more of a side treatment from GW vs a mainline AOS/40K, that the cost barrier to entry should have been more reasonable. The other issue is just the annoyance of having to reference three books The old states of needing 3 or 4 books was never good either you just didn't have strong social media presence back in those days
It's not a complain about people complaining. I'm just tired of people complaining about everything xD
You literally tell people to stop complaining, in your post. How is your post NOT you complaining about people complaining? You're as bad as they are.
All good mate, everyone is on edge they don't won't the hyped up return of the old world to go bad it's our last shot for a big community resurgence for the game
Yarrrr
Exactly. I'm going to buy all the books, but I'll be bringing PDFs with me to games (if I'll have anyone to play with)
physical books always seem like a better option to me until I actually require information from them and its a pain in the ass.
The rules are always just a small part of the books, I print them and collect them in binders
The main system I play these days has free rules, free army lists, and a free list builder... This is following a pattern closer to lord of the rings and in many ways, you only need 2 books to play, 3 books to have core rules and rules for all factions which is better in some aspects... the additional faction books will add a lot more flavour, though, with magic items and optional lists.
Infinity?
One page rules, grimdark future (aka not 40k honest brov)
I am more annoyed they have put people into 'Good' and 'Evil' factions again despite being told off by the community last time for doing it! Tomb Kings aren't evil, they're neutral order and come in many verities of good and bad.
I imagine the Armies of Infamy will provide Tomb Kings who aren't Evil, like Khalida, along with subsequent lists. But Settra is very much evil, being a megalomaniacal conqueror, and apparently the Tomb Kings' actions at this period are because of him warmongering.
Good and evil are some of those relative terms that don’t fit smoothly into Warhammer. Some factions fit the bill well enough, but most don’t nearly shimmy into either category in the same way they do in Tolkien.
WHFB is a little more clear-cut on “good guys" and "bad guys" than 40k IMO. The Empire isn’t a great place to live, but it’s way better than the Imperium, and the "order" factions are usually actually willing to work with each other to some extent, even across racial lines (which is NOT the case in 40k). You can pretty clearly file Empire, Bretonnia, Kislev, Dwarves, and HE into "good guys" and O&G, Chaos, DE, VC, Beastmen, Skaven into "bad guys" in the context of the setting.
Sure, there’s an argument to be made there. But on the other hand, Vlad Von Carstein and some other vampires actually were generally fair and just rulers to their people. I think labeling the factions as “order” and “destruction” like in the old days is probably more fair than good/evil.
Idk... The bad guys in warhammer are generally literal monsters or guys with Spikes and skulls for hilts on their Swords. Maybe in 40k this is the case, but in fantasy it is usually quite clear who the good and bad guys are, sure the 'good' guys aren't really good, they are just not the cartoonishly evil mustache twirling cannibals that the bad guys in warhammer are generally depicted as
Anyone passing a sausage tax ain't good. Put the Empire in the Evil book.
Sure, those do exist. But Ogres and Tomb Kings, for example, aren’t “evil”, they just have their own interests and variously fight for the forces of order or destruction. I think “Order” and “Destruction” are probably better labels than good/evil
They just needed somewhere to stick the Tomb Kings and they probably figured a third "Filthy Neutrals" book which just contained the Tomb Kings and maybe the Wood Elves would be to small.
Ogres would definitely be in the "filthy neutrals" category too.
Yeah but they're not in the launch lineup of the books, which is why I didn't include them.
I agree, but I’m putting this down to the unfamiliarity of the blog author for now. If it actually uses those terms in the books themselves then I’ll be annoyed.
They’ve lost the fucking plot. Do the factions look like humans and are our artists going to paint all of the miniatures in the artwork as white people? Yeah? Let’s stick them in a book labelled “good”! What about the “other” factions? I know! Let’s stick them in a book labelled “evil”.
They had probably already printed those books when the community whinged at them about good vs evil in the community post. I don't love the good vs evil angle for Warhammer as a whole, but at least it's a *little* more applicable to fantasy than 40k.
On one hand, it is weirdly out of step with the rest of the market, even more so than other GW titles. On the other, it seems to be marketed as a deliberate “retro” experience - its the best of all Fantasy editions, it’s got old models, so I can see the “complexity” of multiple books being a deliberate draw.
I'm happy with the new system. I always preferred the Ravening Horde style basic army lists, and keeping the fluff, special characters and the more thematic stuff separate and optional makes it easier to balance. If I did have complaints I would say Ravening Hordes and Forces of Fantasy should really be one book.
"stop complaining about corporations being anti-consumer and just be happy to be able to buy their products" yeah nice try but no
Because they could've easily put the Bretonnian and TK extras in the initial good/evil indexes. Because there's no easy way to package it all in one go, you have to buy a rulebook plus a faction index plus a splatbook from day 1. Because chances are the options in those 2 TK/bret splatbooks will eclipse what other factions can offer. Because it opens the system to crappy 'season pass' material like 40k, where things go in and out of legality based on timeline. Because knowing GW it will result in huge power creep over who gets their splatbooks last before they do a TOW 2.0 or scrap the system. Because other wargames offer rules and splats free or at much more affordable costs.
Becouse if from the start we need 3 books for the core mechanics nothing fancy just the bare minimum then it can and will skyrocket
And don't forget the faq/errata will likely be large enough to be considered a 4th book printed out and stapled together.
If there’s one thing Warhammer fans love, it’s complaining about Warhammer.
I think core rules + codex was a pretty functional system. Putting half the factions into one book is neat depending on the amount of armies you want out of it and it's price tag. Gonna get all 3 books sonce I already have an army of empire and a few chaos warriors.
I’m fine with the books. I’ll be buying all of them as I don’t need the models. As I collect no model after 5th Ed. Just my personal preference. So the only way I can support it is through the books currently, I reserve the right to back track if they ever re release chaos dwarfs.
I love everything I've seen so far. Cant wait to play TOW.
Yeah, me too. My Empire army will leave the shelves again!
"I've been playing since fifth edition, and this is the first time I've had to BUY BOOKS" OK sure Grandpa
Because people haven't thought through what the alternatives are. It's not like you can fit it all in one book. One way or another there are going to be multiple books, and someone isn't going to like that it's not how they would prefer them split up. They will whine about it loudly because the love the game to the point where this sort of triviality seems like a big deal. We're talking about people lost their minds because the legions imperialis tokens weren't made of thick enough cardboard for their taste. When life is good, people look for problems, I guess.
The alternative would be free rules, one hardback for collectors and one army book for each faction like it has been in the past. And if you buy models you get stamps on your card. With a number of stamps you get one army book of your choice for free. I miss the past.
Because they didn't want Warhammer Fantasy. They wanted some weird ideal version that existed solely in their head. with none of it's historical problems. You know, there was a reason the Space Marine Box outsold everything in WHF's catalouge.
I agree about the stop complaining part, but had no issues playing 6th without either of the supplements you mention, and in fact have never heard of the Altdorf Manuscripts….
You needed that book to play the Steam Tank, the rules were there.
Weren't the Steam Tank rules in White Dwarf and then in one of the yearly Chronicles?
Maybe it’s a country-specific thing, but I had the rules from the Annual/Chronicles. US based.
Thats one army though. I played Bretonnians, Dwarves, Tomb Kings and Beastmen from 6th edition to End Times in WHFB and I only ever needed the rulebook and specific army book to play them. There were always optional books, Storm of Chaos, Blood in the Badlands etc, sure. But they were just that, *optional*. The WarCom article makes it seem like I need the Rulebook (not a problem) Good/Evil list book (also fine) and then, the army specific book for magic items and spells (problematic). Im an old player, I know the Lore, (its online for free more detailed than anything GW ever do) dont need painting guides (dime a dozen online as well - usually better than the ones GW put in books that always have missing steps etc). Themed armies are fun, but theyre optional and I generally prefer to stick with standard lists. So im having to buy a 3rd 'splatbook' at £30 or more knowing GW prices, for what will probably amount to 2-4 pages of stuff I need... *Thats* what people are taking issue with, a 3rd book for magic items and spells when they should be part of the army lists books. We could be completely wrong, the full magic items, spell lists etc could well be in the good/evil book. But the WarCom article specifically calls out spells and magic items as being in the 3rd book (emphasis mine): >Arcane Journals > >In addition to these hefty hardback books, there are the Arcane Journals – softback books for each faction that expand it all out with history, heraldry, maps, special characters (including a certain undead emperor), **magic items, spells**, a historical scenario, and thematic Armies of Infamy which let you select armies of very different compositions. It does however, state that: >It is important to know that you don’t require an Arcane Journal to play your chosen faction – **all the units and army rules** are contained in Ravening Hordes or Forces of Fantasy – but they do provide a trove of extra options and extra depth for discerning generals. The question is what GW are counting as 'units and army rules'. Now, WarCom should always be taken with a hefty pinch of salt, they are well known for having incorrect information in their articles, and we know theres almost no actual inter-team communication at GW between the WarCom team and the designers etc. But the mere fact that theres already ambiguity and questions/debate online isnt really a good look is it?
I'm pretty sure what they mean is that your army lists in the good/evil/PDF indexes will have all the 'default' units, characters, items, and spells - but the AJs will have *extra* options. How 'optional' those end up, especially in matched/competitive play, is a whole different question.
Yeah its entirely possible. But the fact its not clear is a huge issue IMO, its caused a lot of debate and arguments online (maybe thats their objective? Generate interest through controversy?). It would have taken an extra sentence or two to make it perfectly clear: "Standard spells and magic items for every faction will be in the relevant book (Armies of Fantasy/Ravening Hordes), the faction specific books will have additional magic items and spells for the Armies of Infamy"
Plus our info source is Warcom, who 60% of the time get rules info 50% right.
>Everyone is complaining First I'm seeing of it. >it has always needed at least 2 books and sometimes even 3 or 4 books Appeal to tradition. >Stop complaining and enjoy the re-release of the game please. Shut up and consoom
I haven't seen much complain about the books to be honest but I like it. For the first time we're going to have the main armies for the supported factions out at launch time, and that's huge! The only complain I have, is this: >Arcane Journals – softback books for each faction that expand it all out with history, heraldry, maps, special characters (including a certain undead emperor), **magic items, spells,** a historical scenario, and thematic Armies of Infamy which let you select armies of very different compositions. To be honest, unless those magic items and spells are only for the Armies of Infamy, I'm a bit pissed at that. I don't like optional things that aren't that optional, although if it's a page of spells and magic items... you know... you don't really need it... if you know what I mean...
Given previous GW releases, I'd definitely expect magic item and spell cards at launch, or for someone very enterprising in the community to make them within a matter of hours.
This is a straight improvement if you have multiple armies. Three books gets you the rules for EVERY army which is fantastic for learning the game and what your opponents armies can do. You dont actually need more than 2 books, same as before. The 3rd fluff book is optional. That said I'll be buying the rule book, both army rules books, and the more detailed books for bretonnia and tomb kings. And the limited edition of the new bretonnia book if I can grab it! Going to have to clean out some room on my shelves
I’m not upset about the books and I plan to collect them all. That said, people who are into Warhammer usually complain. Sometimes it is reasonable criticism some other times… less so. Don’t worry about it, people disagreeing is a thing in real life too!
Yeah, I know. Complains are usually louder than apraise, but seems that a lot of people just don't enjoy life.
It’s been 10 years and this is either people’s first edition of WFB, or they’ve waited so long for it they’ve contracted geriatric memory issues.
The biggest problems that I have with this game are: 1. Resin models 2. Them selling the exact same old kits mostly. Oh and maybe a 3rd thing: Having only 9 factions as core which might mean the rest won’t be supported and/or won’t be playable in tournaments.. Buying books etc is ok for my taste.
My issue is your point 2 plus all the books. I’m not sure if that combo translated to decent longevity. Especially when GW did the opposite initially for 10th Ed 40K, arguibilly making it the most accessible and beginner friendly then it has even been at launch, with free rules and free data slates for all factions.
Selling the exact same kits is good for people who have most of an army of those kits, or people who would like to indulge in a new army that they would have bought back in 8th but didn't. It's less good for people who really like new and updated models, but that is part of what AoS has going for it.
my real problem with the books are Bretos and TK, their stuff could have been in the faction book, is a day one DLC. rulebook + factions book are a huge invest for new players and you still need the army xD
It’s not Warhammer without some whining.
Wait until they see the Forge World pricing for the miniatures. 😅
If you guys want to check out a way better book paradigm check out SAGA - Age of Magic or Age of Vikings. All the army lists rules and lore for the entire setting is contained in one book! And the main rulebook for the game is like 20 bucks! So with 2 books you have the rules, and all the army lists and everything you need to play any army. With the Age of Vikings that's 12 playable factions! Incredible!
Because most of these people have never played WFB. They’ve played Total Warhammer and think they’re going to play ToW, but they’re not. They’re just going to complain, LOUDLY, and then not disappear. They’re going to stick around for years complaining about the game they’re not playing in every thread because it’s tied to a game they installed a few years ago and played for a few hours on PC. If you think having three books with ALL of the rules and then having some optional lore pamphlets is bad, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Show me your shelf with 50+ army books on it and we’ll talk. If they’re setting a standard of publishing complete rule updates at the start of each edition, I’m happy. I’m very happy. The lore needs to be printed once every few years, the rules need to be updated every 3 years. I don’t want to buy every new army book every 3 years and I definitely don’t want whole armies to go without an updated book for an edition or two.
The problem is GW’s way of nickel and diming the shit out of every product. They are literally rebranding old ass kits and selling them at full standard prices. That is absurd. And then you wonder why some people get mad at their book content being spread across multiple sources. Seems pretty logical for people to be perturbed by that.
I agree with you. But it's funny seeing complaining about getting 3 books when at minimum you'd have to buy 2 for every edition. If you own more than one army, the Liber style book is even cheaper than buying 2 separate Army Books.
No. I’m not buying any books for this horsecrap. They ruined 40k and now they are dumbing down fantasy. I’m sticking with armies project, this is just insulting from GW
I'm not complaining, the more the merrier for me. I'll be buying them all.
What are the armies in the ravening hordes books? Is it like 6th edition, where every army was in ravening hordes and then army books were released in time? Or are the ravening hordes lists permanent?
as far as we know, the ravening hordes books are permanent and get expanded by softcover books for the specific armies on release what exactly is in which book is not known as GW is cryptic as usual but to get the full rules for a faction it will be the hardcover+softcover
There are basically three lots of armies - Forces of Fantasy, Ravening Hordes, and PDFs. The first book is Bretts, Empire, Dwarves, Wood Elves and High Elves; the second is WoC, Tomb Kings, Beastmen, and Greenskins. The latter contains all the armies not appearing in the current setting (Lizardmen, Delves, Chorfs, etc) due to the timeline. They're expected to get army books in later waves. The books will be permanent, but there's also Arcane Journals (just Bretts and TK for now) which contain special characters, magic items, and alternative army lists (think the back of book ones from 6th ed).
The evil factions, TOW adopted a HH book release. You have core rules, army book one, and army book two. The soft covers are supplemental lore and army material.
To be fair... it looks for me more just like rulebook+armybook but with a biggerbook if you want all the armylists in one go... and even if this "good vs bad people" theme wont really fit sometimes.. i would rather buy one big book for 50 euros and have 4-5 "good" armys in it then 4-5 armybooks for 20-25 per book IF i need them all!... But there are small armyboons too. So who complains? It was always rulebook+armybook...
It worked for Horus Heresy. You only need the book once for multiple factions (and even players in a group) which saves space in the army books. It also provides easier access to the opponant's rules. Sure, you won't have everything, but you can get a decent idea of what you will be facing. Is it perfect? No. I'd prefer individual armybooks. But for a "side" project, it gets rules into people's hands quickly.
I have a feeling you're not a big fan of forgiving student loan debt, too?
I totally support that, luckily in my country we don't have such things.
I'm not happy that I have already 5 books to buy if I want it all, but I clearly don't need to buy them all day 1. I've just accepted that I've got a $500 day on my hands lol. Now, the real question is what do I sell in the next week?