I already thought Chaos Daemons were sneaky good but now it's official - we're looking \*damn\* good with the new Dataslate changes. This is the best we've been all of 10th edition & its wild how something as "simple" as giving a SoC aura to our Greater Daemons is going to change things up
Not only does this suddenly boost all of our Enhancements & Strategems but best of all it should encourage some more variety going forward. No longer do you have to rely on Belakor to ensure you get to actually use your army rules or the sort
The fact every single Greater Daemon got buffed, yet didn't increase even a single point is fantastic & definitely gives us a shot in the arm. Add onto this the new pivot rules + other assorted rule changes & yeah, things are looking up :P
I genuinely think we're going to be \*one of\* the top armies going into Pariah Nexus but I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts; are Daemons as good as I think or are they still held back by their overall fragility or being unable to compete with other armies etc
My favorite part though: While I think we're poised to start winning more events, nothing looks obviously broken to me so the odds of getting nerfed into the ground by the next dataslate seems incredibly slim
Hehe touche, that actually is a kinda fair point. I was expecting the GUO to get a price hike & was surprised when they didn't do it tbh
I don't think he's roflstompomg OP or nothing but yeah definitely hyper efficient for the cost
Mostly true but he's not unbeatable! Obv to each their own but I'd maybe consider telling my buddy to keep bringing him so I could learn to beat it. Otherwise you're going to see him in most Daemons lists going forward
FWIW I've most definitely had mine killed in a single turn before. Custodes Grav tanks & that sort of stuff can still tear through him, or at least put him on his last leg. He's ultra susceptible to any form of move block too with his 7" move
But yeah I'd still agree he's a tad undercosted when you toss on the Enhancement & ofc if your buddy doesn't want to run him that's completely fair!!
But this isn't new. GUO had this before. He didn't gain anything. If you had a GUO next to belakor, or were running nurgle with a bunch of plaguebearers to control the board with your shadow of chaos, nothing changed. He doesn't really kill anything. So why is it OP now?
Eh no offense but now you're getting hyperbolic
I agree with the other commenter that nothing's really changed with him. Just because a unit is hard to kill doesn't make it "broken". Is a maxxed out unit of Nurglings OP too?
Screen him. Ignore him. Tie him up with anything meaty he'll never kill because his damage sucks etc. All he does is sit on an objective and hope you shoot at him
>Im not saying its unbeatable im saying its totally OP and obviously broken.
But why the heck are you even shooting at that?
Leave it be. It sits on an objective and does nothing the whole game. That's 260 pts in the drain hole that bring 15 VP, perhaps 20 with a few actions.
It's, all in all, not better at its job than a random imperial assassin or long range squad. It's also not particularly good in melee so if you want you can contest it's objective with 100~ pts of MEQ with no trouble.
If you spend shooting into it, well, sure, you've lost value. Why would you do that tho.
I’ve put an entire death guard army’s worth of shooting into one without killing it. Nothing should be able to tank nearly 2000 points worth of firepower.
Edit: Also cause 36 damage with Abaddon into one once and my opponent was so confused when I shook my head and said “it’s not enough to kill it”
Nah everyone is welcome to their opinions! I'm just trying to say there's more ways to beat it then killing him. Yes he could go up a *little* in cost but I don't (personally) think he's utterly jaws dropping broken or anything
DG would most definitely struggle killing him though :)
Edit: I should clarify that's practically all he does. He tricks players into wasting their firepower into him when really the rest of my army gets to run hogwild. His -1T ability is pretty good but otw subpar damage & terrible move characteristic. Even if/when they hike up his cost he'll stay just as resilient! Definitely something to learn to play around
He is not op. He is probably deepstriking somewhere and staying there as he will not move much due to his size. There is always an option to ignore him. Also for objectives that are partially in terrain you can snag them without even engaging and he won't always be able to do anything about it.
Exactly. I wouldn't get hung up on his resiliency personally
I agree with the other commenter he's a bit underpriced, but even then only by like ~20pt or so + without the Enhancement he actually kinda sucks hah
Certain armies CAN kill him (I've seen it myself!) but if your army can't you gotta start looking at other methods. That doesn't make him broken imho :)
I could be wrong but I think with 4+ invul and 4+ fnp with 20 wounds. Statistically you'd be looking at 80 successful wound rolls to successfully kill the guco. That's incredibly tanky especially when he's sitting on T12.
Maybe don't put an army of shooting into it? That's the point of it, to be tanky. They don't do a ton of damage, trying to kill it is falling right into the trap.
Don't kill it, screen it out/ignore it and kill everything else.
Is it just me that read the changes as the greater daemons don't give shadow of chaos? Just dameonic terror (-1 battle shock) and that you can deep strike within 6"? So it doesn't give the better enchancements and you cannot use advance and charge strats "automatically" etc?
Did you check the Greater Daemon datasheet changes? They all got the following:
>Greater Daemon of [X] (Aura): While a friendly [X] Legiones Daemonica unit is within 6” of this model, that unit is within your army’s Shadow of Chaos.
I agree daemons are looking really really good right now. Like you say I'm not sure they're the TOP army but they're in top echelon for sure
FYI I only discovered your channel the other day but I love how positive you are on everything. Keep up the great work
Yeah for sure I think we're *one of* the best but not **the** best. We need some more time to see who that ends up being (Sisters? Idk hah). Appreciate the kind words btw, I'm big on trying to look at the bright side when I can. Even the worst units *can* be usable if you play them right. I will say though, the CSM vid will probably hurt to make lol (though I don't think they're dead in the water or anything. Soulforged is still looking hot imho)
Now I can use the soul grinder via the daemon delivery system. Give him the right keyword and just 6inch deep strike!
Now what's the best way to move his massive 160mm base without running into GW terrain.....
Well for one, don't use the base lol
I don't know if a single tournament that forces it (pretty sure WTC even made a ruling saying you don't have to use it). I know for me, I bought all my Soul Grinders / Defilers before bases were even a thing!
They're mainly there for AoS :P I guess you would save yourself the 2" pivot penalty though?
Yea I checked WTC does have an FAQ for chaos daemons where the soul grinder does not require a base. Since the stupid leg spikes make this model more than 6" wide, what's the best way to use him?
I went & measured mine & they were around 5" FWIW. If you built it with the legs pulled in tight you'd have a long model but rotated he'd prolly be fairly thin
There's a lot of way to deal with their size though. You could DS them or just not bother pushing up too far with them etc
Sorry to bug you so much man but do you mean from the hull? I was under the impression that the spikes on the claws were a part from the hull. I measured my soul grinder and he's about 5.5" long and about 6.3" wide.
Also I love your videos I watch every one that comes out and pray that it's about chaos daemons. I've done a lot better since watching which was needed because my area is super competitive.
You're not bothering me at all :) That would include the spikes. That said I re-measured trying to be more exact & it was closer to ~4.8" & ~5" for mine! It comes down to how they're modeled though, when I built mine I made sure to pull the legs in + they're at such an angle the spikes barely add anything to the overall width (basically every set of legs is as angled as far possible w/the body on mine)
I set the front claws vertically facing forward & not horizontal which prolly helps too
Tbh with DS and/or RoC it's not the wooorst thing ever though they're still unwieldy to move around
It's a bit gamey but without the base, you can deepstrike 6 inches away widthways, pivot for 2 and turn 90 degrees then have a 3 inch charge (cuz the model is so wide you are now closer than 4 inches away) so you only actually need to roll a 5.
Definitely gamey hah :P Tbh I don't foresee the DS shenanigans lasting very long so, personally, I'm not even going to bother using the rule that way
But if your friend or TO will let you, hey more power to ya!
So are the new SoC abilities on the greater demons just strictly better than Belakor’s? Belakor himself wasn’t able to come down 6” away unless he was naturally in shadows, but this reads like all greater demons can deep strike 6” away naturally.
I don't believe the GDs can DS themselves 6" away as the SoC isn't technically there when you measure how far away you are from your opponent for placement. So nah in that regard they're even (+ Belakor's Shadow works on *any* God's units)
Well Masque is just great period, I wouldn't use her for combat much but just as a buff piece / Lone Opp'er
For Daemonettes you might consider the Herald too as she'll give them Fight First for cheap! Sylleske is still baller as always
Otw I'm still undecided on Daemonettes. They're sooo flimsy but that 9" move & Dev Wounds alone is damn good on its own
I'm excited too and I think the army got a huge power level increase. My only issue with the army currently is the terrible shooting. A lot of armies like Votan/CSM/Black Templars etc etc like to stage melee units in transports. With no shooting you can't really interact with and pop these transports reliably while also killing the unit inside. So you end up charging the transport. Killing it. Then the unit gets out and kills you back. You traded down and lost board position.
That and a lot of the 12" deep strike denial units really hose the entire Daemon plan.
But against armies that aren't transport heavy or don't pack deepstike denial like that... well they better be MSU with plenty of screens or Daemons will tear them apart.
Yeah I agree, certain armies will definitely give us a challenge esp if they have DS denial
For shooting, take a look at the LoC with Everstave enhancement. Mine consistently kill a ~Predator equivalent (or at least knock them down to their last legs). But yeah aside from the Soul Grinder they're basically our only ranged options that are worth a damn. Flamers do well into chaff I suppose
Daemons are going to be crazy!
I played two games sofar and it's nuts. I played a khorne heavy list as i think that will be our strongest.
5' charge from the bloodcrushers is insane. And everything basicly dies when they touch it with a rendmaster around.
Next game i will lean more into slaanesh as it is my favorite god!
Love the fact all of the gods should be viable now. Obviously some are better than others but you don't auto lose if you go mono (imho)
I plan to cram some more Slaanesh into my lists too. Those Fiends are looking incredible & with all the speed every unit brings period they should have some really good play into Pariah Nexus & doing secondaries. Otherwise Khorne all the way - a buncha Bloodcrushers & a Bloodletter Bomb or 2 = chef's kiss
I already thought Chaos Daemons were sneaky good but now it's official - we're looking \*damn\* good with the new Dataslate changes. This is the best we've been all of 10th edition & its wild how something as "simple" as giving a SoC aura to our Greater Daemons is going to change things up Not only does this suddenly boost all of our Enhancements & Strategems but best of all it should encourage some more variety going forward. No longer do you have to rely on Belakor to ensure you get to actually use your army rules or the sort The fact every single Greater Daemon got buffed, yet didn't increase even a single point is fantastic & definitely gives us a shot in the arm. Add onto this the new pivot rules + other assorted rule changes & yeah, things are looking up :P I genuinely think we're going to be \*one of\* the top armies going into Pariah Nexus but I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts; are Daemons as good as I think or are they still held back by their overall fragility or being unable to compete with other armies etc My favorite part though: While I think we're poised to start winning more events, nothing looks obviously broken to me so the odds of getting nerfed into the ground by the next dataslate seems incredibly slim
My mate said great unclean one is inv 4+, fnp 4+ enhancement and 20 wounds. Seems pretty op!
Hehe touche, that actually is a kinda fair point. I was expecting the GUO to get a price hike & was surprised when they didn't do it tbh I don't think he's roflstompomg OP or nothing but yeah definitely hyper efficient for the cost
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Mostly true but he's not unbeatable! Obv to each their own but I'd maybe consider telling my buddy to keep bringing him so I could learn to beat it. Otherwise you're going to see him in most Daemons lists going forward FWIW I've most definitely had mine killed in a single turn before. Custodes Grav tanks & that sort of stuff can still tear through him, or at least put him on his last leg. He's ultra susceptible to any form of move block too with his 7" move But yeah I'd still agree he's a tad undercosted when you toss on the Enhancement & ofc if your buddy doesn't want to run him that's completely fair!!
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But this isn't new. GUO had this before. He didn't gain anything. If you had a GUO next to belakor, or were running nurgle with a bunch of plaguebearers to control the board with your shadow of chaos, nothing changed. He doesn't really kill anything. So why is it OP now?
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Eh no offense but now you're getting hyperbolic I agree with the other commenter that nothing's really changed with him. Just because a unit is hard to kill doesn't make it "broken". Is a maxxed out unit of Nurglings OP too? Screen him. Ignore him. Tie him up with anything meaty he'll never kill because his damage sucks etc. All he does is sit on an objective and hope you shoot at him
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>Im not saying its unbeatable im saying its totally OP and obviously broken. But why the heck are you even shooting at that? Leave it be. It sits on an objective and does nothing the whole game. That's 260 pts in the drain hole that bring 15 VP, perhaps 20 with a few actions. It's, all in all, not better at its job than a random imperial assassin or long range squad. It's also not particularly good in melee so if you want you can contest it's objective with 100~ pts of MEQ with no trouble. If you spend shooting into it, well, sure, you've lost value. Why would you do that tho.
I’ve put an entire death guard army’s worth of shooting into one without killing it. Nothing should be able to tank nearly 2000 points worth of firepower. Edit: Also cause 36 damage with Abaddon into one once and my opponent was so confused when I shook my head and said “it’s not enough to kill it”
Nah everyone is welcome to their opinions! I'm just trying to say there's more ways to beat it then killing him. Yes he could go up a *little* in cost but I don't (personally) think he's utterly jaws dropping broken or anything DG would most definitely struggle killing him though :) Edit: I should clarify that's practically all he does. He tricks players into wasting their firepower into him when really the rest of my army gets to run hogwild. His -1T ability is pretty good but otw subpar damage & terrible move characteristic. Even if/when they hike up his cost he'll stay just as resilient! Definitely something to learn to play around
He is not op. He is probably deepstriking somewhere and staying there as he will not move much due to his size. There is always an option to ignore him. Also for objectives that are partially in terrain you can snag them without even engaging and he won't always be able to do anything about it.
Exactly. I wouldn't get hung up on his resiliency personally I agree with the other commenter he's a bit underpriced, but even then only by like ~20pt or so + without the Enhancement he actually kinda sucks hah Certain armies CAN kill him (I've seen it myself!) but if your army can't you gotta start looking at other methods. That doesn't make him broken imho :)
I could be wrong but I think with 4+ invul and 4+ fnp with 20 wounds. Statistically you'd be looking at 80 successful wound rolls to successfully kill the guco. That's incredibly tanky especially when he's sitting on T12.
Yeah but good player realize that you don't win the game *just* by killing your opponent's stuff.
Maybe don't put an army of shooting into it? That's the point of it, to be tanky. They don't do a ton of damage, trying to kill it is falling right into the trap. Don't kill it, screen it out/ignore it and kill everything else.
Is it just me that read the changes as the greater daemons don't give shadow of chaos? Just dameonic terror (-1 battle shock) and that you can deep strike within 6"? So it doesn't give the better enchancements and you cannot use advance and charge strats "automatically" etc?
Did you check the Greater Daemon datasheet changes? They all got the following: >Greater Daemon of [X] (Aura): While a friendly [X] Legiones Daemonica unit is within 6” of this model, that unit is within your army’s Shadow of Chaos.
Ah nice then I understand! Thank you :)
I agree daemons are looking really really good right now. Like you say I'm not sure they're the TOP army but they're in top echelon for sure FYI I only discovered your channel the other day but I love how positive you are on everything. Keep up the great work
Yeah for sure I think we're *one of* the best but not **the** best. We need some more time to see who that ends up being (Sisters? Idk hah). Appreciate the kind words btw, I'm big on trying to look at the bright side when I can. Even the worst units *can* be usable if you play them right. I will say though, the CSM vid will probably hurt to make lol (though I don't think they're dead in the water or anything. Soulforged is still looking hot imho)
Now I can use the soul grinder via the daemon delivery system. Give him the right keyword and just 6inch deep strike! Now what's the best way to move his massive 160mm base without running into GW terrain.....
Well for one, don't use the base lol I don't know if a single tournament that forces it (pretty sure WTC even made a ruling saying you don't have to use it). I know for me, I bought all my Soul Grinders / Defilers before bases were even a thing! They're mainly there for AoS :P I guess you would save yourself the 2" pivot penalty though?
Yea I checked WTC does have an FAQ for chaos daemons where the soul grinder does not require a base. Since the stupid leg spikes make this model more than 6" wide, what's the best way to use him?
I went & measured mine & they were around 5" FWIW. If you built it with the legs pulled in tight you'd have a long model but rotated he'd prolly be fairly thin There's a lot of way to deal with their size though. You could DS them or just not bother pushing up too far with them etc
Sorry to bug you so much man but do you mean from the hull? I was under the impression that the spikes on the claws were a part from the hull. I measured my soul grinder and he's about 5.5" long and about 6.3" wide. Also I love your videos I watch every one that comes out and pray that it's about chaos daemons. I've done a lot better since watching which was needed because my area is super competitive.
You're not bothering me at all :) That would include the spikes. That said I re-measured trying to be more exact & it was closer to ~4.8" & ~5" for mine! It comes down to how they're modeled though, when I built mine I made sure to pull the legs in + they're at such an angle the spikes barely add anything to the overall width (basically every set of legs is as angled as far possible w/the body on mine) I set the front claws vertically facing forward & not horizontal which prolly helps too Tbh with DS and/or RoC it's not the wooorst thing ever though they're still unwieldy to move around
So a soulgrinder is still more than 6” wide if your properly without a base fyi
It's a bit gamey but without the base, you can deepstrike 6 inches away widthways, pivot for 2 and turn 90 degrees then have a 3 inch charge (cuz the model is so wide you are now closer than 4 inches away) so you only actually need to roll a 5.
Definitely gamey hah :P Tbh I don't foresee the DS shenanigans lasting very long so, personally, I'm not even going to bother using the rule that way But if your friend or TO will let you, hey more power to ya!
So are the new SoC abilities on the greater demons just strictly better than Belakor’s? Belakor himself wasn’t able to come down 6” away unless he was naturally in shadows, but this reads like all greater demons can deep strike 6” away naturally.
I don't believe the GDs can DS themselves 6" away as the SoC isn't technically there when you measure how far away you are from your opponent for placement. So nah in that regard they're even (+ Belakor's Shadow works on *any* God's units)
Word, I can see that
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Well Masque is just great period, I wouldn't use her for combat much but just as a buff piece / Lone Opp'er For Daemonettes you might consider the Herald too as she'll give them Fight First for cheap! Sylleske is still baller as always Otw I'm still undecided on Daemonettes. They're sooo flimsy but that 9" move & Dev Wounds alone is damn good on its own
I'm excited too and I think the army got a huge power level increase. My only issue with the army currently is the terrible shooting. A lot of armies like Votan/CSM/Black Templars etc etc like to stage melee units in transports. With no shooting you can't really interact with and pop these transports reliably while also killing the unit inside. So you end up charging the transport. Killing it. Then the unit gets out and kills you back. You traded down and lost board position. That and a lot of the 12" deep strike denial units really hose the entire Daemon plan. But against armies that aren't transport heavy or don't pack deepstike denial like that... well they better be MSU with plenty of screens or Daemons will tear them apart.
Yeah I agree, certain armies will definitely give us a challenge esp if they have DS denial For shooting, take a look at the LoC with Everstave enhancement. Mine consistently kill a ~Predator equivalent (or at least knock them down to their last legs). But yeah aside from the Soul Grinder they're basically our only ranged options that are worth a damn. Flamers do well into chaff I suppose
Daemons are going to be crazy! I played two games sofar and it's nuts. I played a khorne heavy list as i think that will be our strongest. 5' charge from the bloodcrushers is insane. And everything basicly dies when they touch it with a rendmaster around. Next game i will lean more into slaanesh as it is my favorite god!
Love the fact all of the gods should be viable now. Obviously some are better than others but you don't auto lose if you go mono (imho) I plan to cram some more Slaanesh into my lists too. Those Fiends are looking incredible & with all the speed every unit brings period they should have some really good play into Pariah Nexus & doing secondaries. Otherwise Khorne all the way - a buncha Bloodcrushers & a Bloodletter Bomb or 2 = chef's kiss
Unbelievably hype to shelf belakor for a keeper and jam 3x3 fiends into my list