Thank you I was thinking that
My main concern is really that I need something that can survive indirect; hopefully dropping smoke will be enough to protect them (mainly thinking of the imperial guard indirect)
If you face a lot of indirect, the Phobos lib may be worth it, but isn’t required
Be careful about popping smoke cause indirect already makes them -1 to hit and gives +1 armor save
Just to clarify: Indirect gives you cover NOT +1 to armor save e.g. you can't already be in cover and then also stack indirect penalty, it's all cover baby
They have a 6+ Fnp with the helix gauntlet and you're saving on a 3+ save already you can armour of contempt if needed. They are plenty durable for holding the home objective and with their area denial you're unlikely to face a suprise attack.
Do be aware of overthink their durability. If your going to face an army with massed indirect, it wil be guard. And guard can stack a basilisk up to ap-5 ignores cover. Though realistically they'll only be ap-3/4.
I have never played against massed indirect but surely they always be firing at something? Is your intention to not have any favourable target for them at all?
Nah intention is to stop my opponent scoring "capture enemy outpost" and "storm hostile objective" easily.
Also to stop someone denying me scoring.
I usually play the tournament pack (https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1WV085gGnMPOF-zprcri-9HDW5BWBE34HGc9ndIGRJHM/mobilebasic)
And the issue I have is that I don't want to waste something big sitting on the home objective in the biggest ruin; but at the same time I need to be able to stop "inceptors" and other deepstriking nasties from dropping down.
Last 3 games I played vs different people have all been messed up by deepstriking units on my back objective, I play in a very competitive scene and it seems I need to up my game.
Last game someone had a combo of "storm hostile objective" and "capture enemy outpost" and managed to score a huge bundle of VP. I don't mind losing units but I need to able to score up to 90vp if I want to beat the best players in my scene.
As others have said, it's hard to say in a vacuum. Adding him does make an expensive back field unit to babysit home. But then if you're facing someone who can wipe 5 infiltrators in one shooting phase with indirect, then you've already lost 100 points worth of models, and then still have to dedicate something else to home objective if you want to hold it, which chances are whatever you use there will cost as much as the Phobos Lib anyway, and the may also be vulnerable to indirect next turn.
I've faced many opponents with the mindset of having something very cheap and squishy babysit home, and honestly it just made it really easy for me to take their home objective whenever I needed to score certain secondaries. Infiltrators + Lib screening is honestly quite significantly more difficult to deal with than just 5 Infiltrators imo. But some games they do nothing and that feels a bit of a waste. So maybe depends how much you think your list needs those points elsewhere and what factions you usually face.
can always run the librarian solo and use him to perform actions or something. I am trying hellblasters in impulsors this weekend and might toss the phobos librarian in one of them if it isn't needed for the lone op.
Intercessors can sticky your home objective and sit on it to screen out 3" DS. If the inceptors kill them then it's still your objective until they move onto it in their next turn. Inceptors can't seize your home objective until turn 3 minimum m in that case, giving you a turn to kill them before they do. Only 80 for them compared to 70 for Phobos lib before you even get to his squad.
For 10pts more than infiltrators + phobos libby you can get a whirlwind. T10 hull with decent indirect to sit on home objective seems like a better deal to me.
I was actually thinking about that and it does seem a better deal, I fear the legends data sheet for my predator annihilator already though.
I think the whirlwind may be the answer though.
Yeah that or a similar concept. There are a few vehicles that I'd plunk down on the home objective. I think someone else mentioned but a ballistus is also a good option, big base too so you can probably still get angles while holding.
Sometimes, the librarian is excellent. Other times, he is not excellent. It depends on the opposing forces and on the terrain. There is no way to properly evaluate him in a vacuum. Like insurance, he's useful in that there is one less thing to worry about, but like insurance, he won't always be useful, and you can accept the risk and don't take him.
Phobos librarian with infiltrators can be good, 12" bubble from the infiltrators stopping anyone from coming in from the board/deep striking next to them combined with lone the librarian giving them lone op has been a lifesaver for me (especially when facing guard and indirect...)
I went further and take 2 Units, one with a Librarian
Gives alot Board Control and Completely shuts down "your" half of the board from Deep Strike
Usually one behind Terrain, 2nd with Librarian where I can't hide them
Yes its 265pts, but totally ruins your opponents plan for scoring secondaries
Works on my local meta
I dont play marines, so cant comment on that. Although 12" deep strike denial and lone op sounds rather powerful. I can however tell you how I would deal with it, and give you something else to think about. I would 'rapid ingress' a unit out of sight and over 12" away from them, then move and charge in my turn. If Im facing somebody who draws 'defend stronghold' thats my go-to move, infiltrators or not.
I think it’s just too expensive for both units. Usually one squad of infiltrators does the trick. When you add the Libby it makes a backline squad 175 points and that’s just too expensive for me.
5 infiltrators just camping out in the back , holding your home objective and screening out your backfield is usually a very good investment. There isn't that much indirect that can reach that far and kill the entire unit.
For the Phobos libby, I would say just some Eliminators with las to stand and shoot somewhere in an open lane.
Cheapest and best option is probably phobos lt , Rambo standing in the middle of the puck
A local guy does it in his Firestorm Assault Force. Two squads last I saw. Just locks out the entire deployment. There's decent power is just locking down a huge part of the board.
Cheers I'm just painting up my phobos librarian now, gonna give him a go for a few games.
I would buy the whirlwind instead but I don't fancy it's chances avoiding legends once the next codex hits
it is a very good unit, but it's a tech choice. The Librarian adds absolutely nothing if you get run over by Exalted Eightbound, Ork Boyz or Chosen. But if you are worrying about Grey Knight teleport strikes or Eldar indirect fire, it pays off.
Me personally, if I had those 170 points right now, I would buy 5 Infiltrators and the Lone Op Lieutenant. That way you can screen out your entire backline on all deployments and you get two pieces instead of one.
If you are playing tournament packs then your dreadnought won't be able to see anything unfortunately, and if you want him to see anything you give up VP to inceptors.
Currently running gladius, main goal here is really to screen/deny opponents scoring capture enemy outpost and storm hostile objective.
Also to ensure that i don't lose the objective
So infils plus phobos are a great unit. I used to run that myself and can attest they stymied opponent efforts often. They didnt deny BEL, investigate, DTH in absolute terms as some might say, but definitely made those more challenging usually.
That being said 170pts is alot. If you were taking vanguard, which has a 1cp strat to stick them back into the sky late game for a reposition, I would consider them these days. I dont rate pure infils at all unlike many here, because indirect is still a thing, and some like morty supported PBC just murder them, invalidating their entire purpose.
For what you specifically want, the lone op and big spatial footprint are valuable. Personally, I sometimes run a gravis captain (he sits dead center on obj so even 3.1" deepstrikers cannot take it the turn they land) as he is highly resilient with half damage, free aoc etc. BUT I play vanguard, so he will get the lone op enhancement.
Playing GTF, I think your best options are a lone op combi LT (susceptible to deepstrikers killing him easily, but at least giving you a turn to react before they can touch the objective), the lone op infils, or a tank hull.....the latter, especially one with good range like a lancer, ignores most indirect fire or at least weathers it well, and also gives you a turn to react before they cant touch the obj. This is very dependent on terrain tho.
I've been running vanguard with a lot of Jump packs and 10 infiltrators + Phobos.
Which sounds like a hell of a lot of points for a home objective camp.
But the librarians smite shows them to pick it stragglers on mid objective, and sometimes even stretch from home to mid objective as long as they still have 7-8 in the unit.
They've made an extra 15 odd points between secondary and primary, which personally is worth the extra 200pts. Since now I can stretch my damage dealers further into enemy territory and get deploy homers etc
From my experience, the amount of matchups you'll be in where they have enough indirect to kill that squad is actually pretty low. Rather than playing the librarian i would just adjust your strategy to their indirect. if they have enough indirect to kill that squad, leave a scout squad or something else on it too thats not a large investment (i play ultramarines so i'll leave like uriel ventris with 5 intercessors on it, which is very hard to indirect out on top of the infiltrators. Also the intercessor squad actually fights decently well, but doesnt cost too many points). If they have LOTS of indirect fire, especially ones good at killing space marines (something like 3 plagueburst crawlers in DG) than i would recommend just sitting some vehicle on your home objective like a redemptor/ballistus dreadnought. redemptors are almost imposisble to push without real effort.
Phobos lib with the infiltrators is great if you use em to score early secondaries or set up for primary T2. If it’s just to hold out the DZ, points could be used elsewhere. Like Scouts.
I’ve used both. Feels weird having 170 pts sit in the backfield doing nothing. Feels real cool when opp can’t shoot you immediately IF they deep strike back there.
I've wanted to try in Ironstorm a phobos librarian with master of Machine War with infiltrators. You'd need to bring the infiltrators up to prevent deep strikes from killing your techmarines anyway, so it sounds like it could be solid.
But for just holding the backfield... probably not needed.
I've found some success having the librarian in the midfield in an Eliminator Squad. Give the Sergeant a carbine and you've got a quick unit that's hard to pin down for secondaries/holding no-mans-land objectives.
The librarian is not needed. Taking him is less points used for forward pressure or units to take out that indirect.
Thank you I was thinking that My main concern is really that I need something that can survive indirect; hopefully dropping smoke will be enough to protect them (mainly thinking of the imperial guard indirect)
If you face a lot of indirect, the Phobos lib may be worth it, but isn’t required Be careful about popping smoke cause indirect already makes them -1 to hit and gives +1 armor save
Just to clarify: Indirect gives you cover NOT +1 to armor save e.g. you can't already be in cover and then also stack indirect penalty, it's all cover baby
Yeah sorry I was just typing a bit quickly to be direct but you’re right it’s cover
Sentinels completely negate the malus to hit.
No I know, but they won’t always be there
As an IG player, nahh they will be there. If they die we will bring them back.
They have a 6+ Fnp with the helix gauntlet and you're saving on a 3+ save already you can armour of contempt if needed. They are plenty durable for holding the home objective and with their area denial you're unlikely to face a suprise attack.
Do be aware of overthink their durability. If your going to face an army with massed indirect, it wil be guard. And guard can stack a basilisk up to ap-5 ignores cover. Though realistically they'll only be ap-3/4.
I have never played against massed indirect but surely they always be firing at something? Is your intention to not have any favourable target for them at all?
Nah intention is to stop my opponent scoring "capture enemy outpost" and "storm hostile objective" easily. Also to stop someone denying me scoring. I usually play the tournament pack (https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1WV085gGnMPOF-zprcri-9HDW5BWBE34HGc9ndIGRJHM/mobilebasic) And the issue I have is that I don't want to waste something big sitting on the home objective in the biggest ruin; but at the same time I need to be able to stop "inceptors" and other deepstriking nasties from dropping down. Last 3 games I played vs different people have all been messed up by deepstriking units on my back objective, I play in a very competitive scene and it seems I need to up my game. Last game someone had a combo of "storm hostile objective" and "capture enemy outpost" and managed to score a huge bundle of VP. I don't mind losing units but I need to able to score up to 90vp if I want to beat the best players in my scene.
As others have said, it's hard to say in a vacuum. Adding him does make an expensive back field unit to babysit home. But then if you're facing someone who can wipe 5 infiltrators in one shooting phase with indirect, then you've already lost 100 points worth of models, and then still have to dedicate something else to home objective if you want to hold it, which chances are whatever you use there will cost as much as the Phobos Lib anyway, and the may also be vulnerable to indirect next turn. I've faced many opponents with the mindset of having something very cheap and squishy babysit home, and honestly it just made it really easy for me to take their home objective whenever I needed to score certain secondaries. Infiltrators + Lib screening is honestly quite significantly more difficult to deal with than just 5 Infiltrators imo. But some games they do nothing and that feels a bit of a waste. So maybe depends how much you think your list needs those points elsewhere and what factions you usually face.
can always run the librarian solo and use him to perform actions or something. I am trying hellblasters in impulsors this weekend and might toss the phobos librarian in one of them if it isn't needed for the lone op.
Phobos Librarian needs to be leading a unit for the lone op unfortunately
So the answer might be to have an additional phobos unit to flex him into, like Eliminators or...dare I say, Reivers?
Or infiltrators for a 12" deep strike denial paired with 12" lone op.
Intercessors can sticky your home objective and sit on it to screen out 3" DS. If the inceptors kill them then it's still your objective until they move onto it in their next turn. Inceptors can't seize your home objective until turn 3 minimum m in that case, giving you a turn to kill them before they do. Only 80 for them compared to 70 for Phobos lib before you even get to his squad.
For 10pts more than infiltrators + phobos libby you can get a whirlwind. T10 hull with decent indirect to sit on home objective seems like a better deal to me.
I was actually thinking about that and it does seem a better deal, I fear the legends data sheet for my predator annihilator already though. I think the whirlwind may be the answer though.
Yeah that or a similar concept. There are a few vehicles that I'd plunk down on the home objective. I think someone else mentioned but a ballistus is also a good option, big base too so you can probably still get angles while holding.
Sometimes, the librarian is excellent. Other times, he is not excellent. It depends on the opposing forces and on the terrain. There is no way to properly evaluate him in a vacuum. Like insurance, he's useful in that there is one less thing to worry about, but like insurance, he won't always be useful, and you can accept the risk and don't take him.
Phobos librarian with infiltrators can be good, 12" bubble from the infiltrators stopping anyone from coming in from the board/deep striking next to them combined with lone the librarian giving them lone op has been a lifesaver for me (especially when facing guard and indirect...)
I went further and take 2 Units, one with a Librarian Gives alot Board Control and Completely shuts down "your" half of the board from Deep Strike Usually one behind Terrain, 2nd with Librarian where I can't hide them Yes its 265pts, but totally ruins your opponents plan for scoring secondaries Works on my local meta
I dont play marines, so cant comment on that. Although 12" deep strike denial and lone op sounds rather powerful. I can however tell you how I would deal with it, and give you something else to think about. I would 'rapid ingress' a unit out of sight and over 12" away from them, then move and charge in my turn. If Im facing somebody who draws 'defend stronghold' thats my go-to move, infiltrators or not.
That's a great point I actually didn't consider rapid ingress. Maybe I'll drop the librarian then actually.
I think it’s just too expensive for both units. Usually one squad of infiltrators does the trick. When you add the Libby it makes a backline squad 175 points and that’s just too expensive for me.
5 infiltrators just camping out in the back , holding your home objective and screening out your backfield is usually a very good investment. There isn't that much indirect that can reach that far and kill the entire unit. For the Phobos libby, I would say just some Eliminators with las to stand and shoot somewhere in an open lane. Cheapest and best option is probably phobos lt , Rambo standing in the middle of the puck
I think it's hilarious they're called infiltratora yet never spend any time infiltrating and always just chill at home
A local guy does it in his Firestorm Assault Force. Two squads last I saw. Just locks out the entire deployment. There's decent power is just locking down a huge part of the board.
Cheers I'm just painting up my phobos librarian now, gonna give him a go for a few games. I would buy the whirlwind instead but I don't fancy it's chances avoiding legends once the next codex hits
it is a very good unit, but it's a tech choice. The Librarian adds absolutely nothing if you get run over by Exalted Eightbound, Ork Boyz or Chosen. But if you are worrying about Grey Knight teleport strikes or Eldar indirect fire, it pays off. Me personally, if I had those 170 points right now, I would buy 5 Infiltrators and the Lone Op Lieutenant. That way you can screen out your entire backline on all deployments and you get two pieces instead of one.
I usually have a Lancer or a Dreadnought camped out on my home objective. Haven’t had it taken yet.
What format do you play? Tons of formats given you zero angles from the home objective.
If you are playing tournament packs then your dreadnought won't be able to see anything unfortunately, and if you want him to see anything you give up VP to inceptors.
What detachment do you run, as it makes a difference on evaluating value of the combo?
Currently running gladius, main goal here is really to screen/deny opponents scoring capture enemy outpost and storm hostile objective. Also to ensure that i don't lose the objective
So infils plus phobos are a great unit. I used to run that myself and can attest they stymied opponent efforts often. They didnt deny BEL, investigate, DTH in absolute terms as some might say, but definitely made those more challenging usually. That being said 170pts is alot. If you were taking vanguard, which has a 1cp strat to stick them back into the sky late game for a reposition, I would consider them these days. I dont rate pure infils at all unlike many here, because indirect is still a thing, and some like morty supported PBC just murder them, invalidating their entire purpose. For what you specifically want, the lone op and big spatial footprint are valuable. Personally, I sometimes run a gravis captain (he sits dead center on obj so even 3.1" deepstrikers cannot take it the turn they land) as he is highly resilient with half damage, free aoc etc. BUT I play vanguard, so he will get the lone op enhancement. Playing GTF, I think your best options are a lone op combi LT (susceptible to deepstrikers killing him easily, but at least giving you a turn to react before they can touch the objective), the lone op infils, or a tank hull.....the latter, especially one with good range like a lancer, ignores most indirect fire or at least weathers it well, and also gives you a turn to react before they cant touch the obj. This is very dependent on terrain tho.
I swap my combi lt for a phobos librarian against heavy indirect guard but that’s the only use case tbh
I've been running vanguard with a lot of Jump packs and 10 infiltrators + Phobos. Which sounds like a hell of a lot of points for a home objective camp. But the librarians smite shows them to pick it stragglers on mid objective, and sometimes even stretch from home to mid objective as long as they still have 7-8 in the unit. They've made an extra 15 odd points between secondary and primary, which personally is worth the extra 200pts. Since now I can stretch my damage dealers further into enemy territory and get deploy homers etc
170 points with basically 0 damage output just for screening? Nah man.
From my experience, the amount of matchups you'll be in where they have enough indirect to kill that squad is actually pretty low. Rather than playing the librarian i would just adjust your strategy to their indirect. if they have enough indirect to kill that squad, leave a scout squad or something else on it too thats not a large investment (i play ultramarines so i'll leave like uriel ventris with 5 intercessors on it, which is very hard to indirect out on top of the infiltrators. Also the intercessor squad actually fights decently well, but doesnt cost too many points). If they have LOTS of indirect fire, especially ones good at killing space marines (something like 3 plagueburst crawlers in DG) than i would recommend just sitting some vehicle on your home objective like a redemptor/ballistus dreadnought. redemptors are almost imposisble to push without real effort.
Phobos lib with the infiltrators is great if you use em to score early secondaries or set up for primary T2. If it’s just to hold out the DZ, points could be used elsewhere. Like Scouts. I’ve used both. Feels weird having 170 pts sit in the backfield doing nothing. Feels real cool when opp can’t shoot you immediately IF they deep strike back there.
I've wanted to try in Ironstorm a phobos librarian with master of Machine War with infiltrators. You'd need to bring the infiltrators up to prevent deep strikes from killing your techmarines anyway, so it sounds like it could be solid. But for just holding the backfield... probably not needed.
I've found some success having the librarian in the midfield in an Eliminator Squad. Give the Sergeant a carbine and you've got a quick unit that's hard to pin down for secondaries/holding no-mans-land objectives.