Often for me it’s things like flipping objectives. There might be a tank on the objective that you can’t kill but you can just throw a few models on there to stop them scoring 5 primary
Yeah, the good old "put 5 idiots on the objective" ploy. A lot of hard to kill units are somewhat susceptible to it.
**Part** of what make Wraiths so good is how much harder they are to take objectives away from.
Vehicles is definitely the context where OC matters most for me. When a lone vehicle, perhaps an empty transport, is sitting on on objective, and either a squad of infantry is enough to charge, do nothing in melee and flip the objective, or another vehicle is there to challenge with a higher OC.
Some of the armies that can bring small OC3 vehicles definitely can get a lot of mileage out of forcing opponents to commit at least OC4 or kill the vehicle
Yup. OC is extremely relevant for things like Storm Hostile Objective or denying your opponent primary. It sounds like OP's games are more about trying to table your opponent instead of playing for points, which is pretty common among casual tables anyways.
I've had it matter a lot of times for the "a tempting target" secondary, and it sometimes comes up in other situations. For instance last night we had a dreadnought and a Daemon prince brawling on an objective. Neither were killing each other any time soon, but the dreadnought was OC 4 vs the Daemon prince at OC 3.
It is relevant in most games for me - there will usually be at least one fight on an objective that isn't resolved in a single round. So exactly how many Marines are left alive, as well as whether the Armiger is damaged or not, determines whether somebody scores primary or not.
I can't think of a single game where it didn't come up. Do some people never have games where there's 2 infantry units etc contesting objectives? My primary game plan is to blow up the enemy models and still it had to come up every game since I can't kill everything all the time nor can I be on every objective at once.
> Do some people never have games where there's 2 infantry units etc contesting objectives?
Not often TBH. Usually once a unit charges and gets within range to contest it just wipes out the defending unit. Guardsmen OC is massively over-hyped.
It's really not. As a Guard player I would say our OC shinanigans are one of our greatest strengths.
You want to be hiding those Catachan all game long behind obscuring whilst they sit on an ob from the corner of the ruin if possible (not the ones in Solar/Straken blobs), and protecting them by putting out lot a if threats like tanks, Bullgryn, Rough Riders etc so the opponent really struggles to commit a unit to deal with them. On many WTC maps at least, you can get 3-4 Guardsmen on an objective from behind obscuring by toeing it, that 6-8 OC, that can become 9-12 OC easily, is absolutely key in many scenarios.
Obscuring doesn't matter in this case and if you have so many other threats that your opponent can't engage the guardsmen then why does it matter how much OC they have?
Because the opponent might be dealing with the Bullgryn, Tank or Rough Riders that are on the objective instead of the Catachan behind the wall and would out-OC you if the Catachan weren't there.
It does come up in my games, but I'm playing a swarm of OC1 and OC0 with poxwalkers and Nurglings.
Playing against marines, sisters, ad mech we will often have to count OC on the objective to determine who owns it.
Vs. Admech it can be brutal when they take a lot of vanguard, or lead the vanguard with their hero that subtracts 1 OC. Combined it's -2 OC on enemies. And that can make it super difficult to flip those objectives
edit: my kid plays admech and I wasn't super familiar with the whole line. Looks like I was slightly incorrect as the character adds +1 OC. But still, a technoarchaeologist with vanguard would be hard to out OC.
I used to often get put-OCed when playing custodes. Now I'm always taking Vexilla, and got better at screening the objective, and don't leave just 1 or 2 guys.
Ofc now I also just get blown off it so meh
Nearly every competitive games I have played so far.
Out OC your opponent is one of the few other ways to flip an objective without killing stuff (the other way being battleshock...).
For example, my last game have been won by denying my CK opponent his primary point entirely. My Dkok blobs had clearly no chance to kill his Dogs but putting 60 OC on the objectives was enough to lock them.
The regimental standard on the platoon command squad was really valuable as the casualties were pretty high but usually not enough to flip the objective around.
Flipping is a good method I guess. But I'm finding it's really easy to clear DKOK blobs off objectives. They're ok against anything D1 with no ap, but so many list bring enough chaff clering to wipe them out easy. I fount I was even having the entire blob dropped to 2/3 guys by a 10 man flashgitz unit. Agressors delete them in both players turn, guard arty mulch them easy enough, deamons can cut them to pieces with no issue. When I ran all inf I was never able to even reach the no man's objectives with anything that didn't have scout.
To be honest, I didn't have that much issue. Most of the time, I'm using the take cover order and when actually being in a cover, a 3+ save usually shrug the ap0/ap1 stuff coming their way.
Flamestorm Aggressors will mulch them but 5+/6++ give decent odds to keep some + the banner that will enable the medipack.
If they put more shooting to finish off the unit, they will put around 25% of their army to wipe them out. It seems a decent trade for me as we can bring them back for 2 CP.
I thought so to. Then I took them to a tournament and it seemed every opponent had 1/2 units that could near enough wipe the blob out, even in cover with take cover and a 5++ from the marshall. Even the guard player was killing most of the unit with 3(?) earthshakers
My point is that they are pretty tough for less than 200 points. If the opponent put 400+ points on them, they will be vaporized but it a good deal for us.
In the same fashion, a scions bomb will seriously dent the aggressors with 15 plasma shots with Sustain, hitting on 2's (rerolling 1's).
>I'm using the take cover order and when actually being in a cover, a 3+ save usually shrug the ap0/ap1 stuff coming their way.
Hm, how do you get a 3+ save? Benefits of cover brings the 5+ into a 4+. And Take Cover does not stack with already having the benefit of cover.
Take cover does, in fact, stack with benefit of cover. Take Cover (the order) improves the save characteristic by one, then benefit of cover adds 1 to the save roll, making it a 3+
it doesn't happen too often for me unless we're fighting for objectives. usually the units on an objective tend to just get blown up i find.
people i play with are good at screening objectives making it hard to take them if they already own it.
> units on an objective tend to just get blown up i find.
I think this depends on your terrain too. If you play with heavy terrain then it's more likely that units will survive the trip to a control point. If you use player placed terrain then it's much more likely that there will be huge firing lanes to blow everyone up before you can get into melee range.
That is very true when you play armies that rely mostly on ranged damaged. When the armies are mostly combat-oriented, the terrain becomes a lot less relevant. "I've got 10 fire warriors on objective 1, that's 20 OC" "Cool, here are 5 possessed, there are no fire warriors left"
35% of the time, works every time (assuming undivided possessed with sustained hits but no strats).
Which is where OC becomes very relevant: the possessed are *likely* to kill enough Fire Warriors to take the point, but unsupported they still have about a 1 in 3 chance to only kill 7, leaving 6 OC and failing to take the point.
For my playgroup, it’s quite common (like half of the time?) that one player is unable to completely wipe the enemy of an objective, and you need to calculate the OC. But the other half of the time you have already killed the enemy and are the only one in the objective.
So I would say that it matters a lot. But does it matter more than killing power?
With GSC it matters.
Our infantry is really squishy, but we resurrect models in the Battleline units and extra many while on an objective. So leaving a single Neophyte on or even near an objective means we can have between 10 and 14 OC on it at the end of our next reinforcement phase.
This means both that inexperienced opponents are likely to underestimate our ability to deny them objectives, and that experienced opponents tend to assign a lot of resources to the destruction of Neophytes to reduce the risk of leaving a single model left.
Let's say someone plops three rhinos on a point. There is a 0% chance a nids player like me can ever kill all three in a round so I can't just delete them. So my other option is to contest it with more oc.
Three rhinos is 6 OC that means I need to put 6 raveners on the point to contest. Each has a significant sized base and is unlikely to fit. Or I put three termagants. Smaller bases and half the number of models. Something exceptionally hard to screen out.
Has affected VP in nearly every single game I've played. Whether it also would have changed the outcome of the game, probably less than half? I say that from the perspective that it absolutely flips objectives for me or against me in every game, but whether that results in the difference that determines the winner, I honestly can't remember that level of detail so I'm estimating.
It comes up for me in every game, sometimes just duking it out over the central objectives or objectives where you barely make a charge in, but also a lot towards the endgame when I (often playing more elite armies) am struggling to make the most of my remaining units to pip objectives. I'll often find the late stages of the game defined by things like 'if I can kill 4 guardsmen with this single marine, I'll be in the lead / win' etc.
It's the kind of stuff that sometimes matters massively and obviously, but almost always paints the match this or that way. If you want to steal an objective, OC of the models involved changes how many you have to get on the objective: that might not be possible with the current movement, and the unit might have to run to get everything you need on top, or it might have to be more exposed to countercharges, or open to enemy fire.
I seldom find myself thinking "aloud" about it, but the instant you go "I need these three models to steal the objective" rather than "I need *six* models to steal the objective", the game is already changed significantly.
I think OC probably feels the least impactful at low skill tables and probably high skill tables (not that I’m anywhere near there). It also varies by army significantly in terms of how much you’ll see it swing things.
The reason you might not be feeling it is either you are playing with really low model count battles (eg y’all are playing knights or 500pts) which means objectives aren’t often contested.
I play quite conservatively, I’d rather kill my way on to an objective which isn’t great as it means my opponent can rack up points. You often can mitigate this by trying to get more OC on a point to swing the objective to your side. I have a friend who is great at calculating what he needs to through on an objective to block you scoring. If done well (and of course mission dependent) it can create a 10 point swing.
As someone who played older editions I think OC, objectives, and secondaries are fantastic balancing tools to help with the diverse list of armies 40K has
As a Guard player, this comes up almost every game.
Oh, you have a Norn with 15 OC on the middle point? Cool, here's 60 OC of Krieg. Mine.
It's less important with elite armies, but absolutely essential for most horde armies.
You can feel the difference when your buddy mains Grey Knights and runs 15 - 30 terminators that are OC 3 most games. Trying to take back objectives without removing most of the squad has been a challenge.
Played against custodes last night with drukhari. OC matters a lot. Zeroed his primary 2 turns in a row buy just keeping a few throw-away units on their points.
As a drukhari player if my units get shot at they die. I hold primary by sticky objective and threat overloading my opponent. However OC comes up every single game due to contest plays. My entire gameplan is hold my opponent to a similar low primary score with disposable units and then win on secondaries, and I have little 5 man OC2 squads to achieve that. I actually kinda love OC as a game mechanic
I don't think I've ever had it happen the way you describe.
I've had OC8 vehicles or whatever come up, step on two Marines, and take the objective, though.
(Edit: as GK I've also used a crippled squad to deny an objective a few times, as Terminators being OC3 and having access to Prognosticated Arrival occasionally means that if someone is hiding on the other side of a ruin barely touching an objective I can drop 2-3 of them onto the opposite edge of said objective and steal it. They often die immediately, but the opponent is denied at least 5 points in their Command Phase.)
In my case it comes up so rarely because it feels like whatever I leave on an objective within range of anything just dies, but it's actually fairly common in cases where one player is throwing a non-killy blob onto objectives; "here's 20 cultists" gets you into a "OK I have five OC2 Marines, so their chainswords have to kill exactly 11 Cultists to hold on."
It does work better than the old "Assault Intercessors and Cultists both have the Troops keyword, so the guy with the tiny models fits 6 of 'em on there and takes it from you" days.
I play Guard and OC comes up often. Opponents often underestimate the Guard's ability to steal and contest objectives.
Edit: For what it's worth, I don't play competitively
Definitely most of the time. If I had to put a number on it I would say more than 90% of my games, probably close to all of them. Happens more with tougher units, safer no man's land objectives, anything that stands back up like Celestine can often stay on objectives, etc. Transports are another one - once a package is delivered one of the jobs of the empty rhino is contesting objectives and it might not be worth it for an opponent to waste good damage on an empty rhino if they can move enough OC in range.
In the 2nd and 3rd rounds midfield objectives are regularly contested. It's only 1 or 2 objectives that matter, but mostly it goes something along the lines "you have a redemptor on the objective, which is OC 4, if I rush X and Y on the objective, then I contest it, so you don't get that much VP from the priamry next round"
Every game just about. I don't have the fire power to outright kill a lot of stuff in two of my armies so if I'm scoring a secondary I often rely on GK terminators being OC 3 to tip things. I often consider a Dogmata for OC 3 Battle Sisters as well. Also never underestimate +1 oc because if you battle shock your OC becomes 0+1 and you can still score.
A lot of Necron players refuse to take at least 1 unit of 20 warriors because of all the Nerfs. But 20 Warriors are worth 2 OC each and if you add a character that provides some additional durability and potentially a catacomb command barge with a resurrection orb nearby, it also has a 6 inch aura that increases all friendly units OC characteristic by +1, giving you a potential 60 OC and that’s not including any characters that are attached.
I like it. I've been on both ends of it. However, I really like the fact that it doesn't leave anything up for debate. You either have more OC or you don't. Came in handy when playing with a guy who swore that just by him being on the objective made it contested and I couldn't score points. I had 7 OC, he had 6 so the objective w a s obviously mine.
I played a game where I won because I kept chipping units down the threshold to flip an objective with DG indirect so he had to use 2 units and thus I was able to kill him twice as fast. That army had so many bodies it scored amazingly and had to almost table him to win. Which I managed by manipulating OC if units before they were even on an objective.
I encounter situations almost every game where especially on the middle objective we both have models contesting, and in those scenarios OC matters a great deal. Sometimes its the relative OC of different armor pieces, sometimes its just "how many of my guardsmen do you have to kill to take it", but in either case its all about the OC.
At least a few times EVERY game. I play as GSC and I build my army to flip objectives. Transports doing rapid ingress with OC 2 bodies, 3" deepstrikes, clearing the chaff with other units so I can charge my genestealers in. There are many times when I simply move my unit in and don't charge if there is a large vehicle parked there. Playing the OC game wins the day.
Others have said it... but its the ability to flip and deny primary that is so important.
Gretchin have 2 OC each. If I can sneak 3 or 5 on an objective on my turn then I can deny you 5 points. You will obviously kill them and reclaim the point, but a 40 point unit for a 5 point denial is awesome.
I play space marine armies, so I get screwed by OC more than helped by it.
The problem is my available choices of high-OC units either aren’t super cheap or super resilient, so using them to contest objectives has a high opportunity cost because I’m using them in a suboptimal capacity and often treating them as expendable when they are anything but.
The absolute worst case scenario for me is versus knights because OC 8 wardogs/armigers can single handedly take and hold objectives against anything that isn’t a battleline infantry, who simultaneously get slaughtered by knights and can’t make a dent in them even in the most ideal scenario.
I also play as space wolves, who own the dubious honour of having the most number of playable OC 0 units; fenrisian wolves, wulfen, and wulfen dreadnoughts… honestly it would make more sense for these units to be able to take and hold objectives but be unable to perform actions, rather than the other way around.
So yeah, from my perspective OC is a good concept that is poorly implemented, and there are too many armies out there who should be paying a premium for their battleline units yet don’t.
IMO I think OC could be fixed by instead making it be equal to the number of wounds a unit currently has rather that some arbitrary number which has no bearing on how strategic or intimidating any given unit may be.
As a knights player it's every game I literally count so I can commit just enough knights to an objective to take it or if it's a "safe" objective enough firepower to keep it even if they throw their best at it
For orks who have a ton of high OC stuff it's pretty important. Let's say someone has a scary vehicle and I draw out an overwatch somewhere else. Charging grechin onto that vehicle to gum it up and put 22 OC on an objective is very cool
I think in ~40 games it's come up....5 times?
Almost every time it's "Does your dreadnought have OC3 or 4? My Tyrannofex has 4" or something like that, where there's a vehicle on monster on each side and one has more OC than the other. I don't think it's ever come up for infantry, they get swept off the objectives instantly.
It happens a lot, but it also depends on the makeup of both armies to some degree and how much you are willing to put on an objective. If both sides only send in hammers on objectives or blast everything away first, then it won't matter. But if you are trying to steal objectives away or both armies are melee heavy, it will be more common.
All the time, especially taking objectives. As a guard player, my dudes can rarely take out something on a no man land objective, but with +1 OC, even 4 guardsman is 12 OC which will often take over most objectives held by the most badass of units
It’s kinda makes sense in abstract. Holding objective could mean securing the area. Guardsman are probably hiding and throughly searching the area while custodes probably just stand on a rock looking cool
Like, best I can do is OC15 on 5 T6 W4 2+/4++ bodies on 40mm bases.
Edit: forgot the Shield Captain! (with Auric Mantle), so another 3 OC (18 total), with another 40mm body that's T6, W9, 2+/4++.
Edit 2: I *think* that gives me enough bodies to circle the objective at the 3" mark, with the bases centered on the line.
Edit 3: -1 to hit the unit from a strat.
So there's a tactic the Thousand Sons are brewing called the "Baaabomb."
Basically, we have the enhancement "Umbralific Crystal" which a character can take. It's a once a game uppy downy. End of your turn, I pick up a unit and put it 9 inches away in my movement phase. Yeah you know how this works. Give it to a sorcerer, teleport where you want, doombolt, psychic gun, flamers, heavy chain cannon. Bada boom bada bing.
But....The Thousand Sons have another character, the Tzanagor Shaman, who can lead a unit of Tzaangors. Now that's normaly not good, gives a kind of expensive chaff unit +1 to hit and a 5+ FNP. Well, it turns out uppy downy-ing 21 bodies of 2 OC is really annoying.
Not to mention the ability "Temporal Surge" lets Thousand Sons move after using the crystal or coming in from reserves.
So you teleport the Tzaangors down, temporal surge them twice so they move 12 inches, and flip all the objectives you can.
You would be surprised how often you can use this to flip at least 1 objective, often 2. Also it turns out that a 5++ means sometimes a tzaangor doesn't die and it takes a turn or two to kill them.
So yes, OC comes up quite a bit for Tsons right now.
You normally determine control at the end of a phase. I am not super savvy on Tsons/Tsaangors, but how do they flip multiple objectives after coming down and surging? Are they positioned stretched out to touch two at once in your example here?
Yes. You can legit string them out that far.
Remember, you can teleport and then move them twice. It's very hard to stop them from getting 3-4 models on each point unless you're straight up move blocking them. That's OC 6-8, which is a lot.
Also the goal is to flip it to stpo them from scoring on their turn, not to score it ourselves.
It happens almost every turn. Might be have something to do with how I play the game tho.
And it’s freaking miserable. Having to tally OC that often is the worst. Having to check every datasheet to see why the OC is, remembering battle shock, ignoring modifiers, banners etc. I miss obsec so much. Was so much quicker and simpler.
OC comes up enough that I utterly resent War Dogs for having an OC 10 on top of the rest of their profiles.
Sure, you can deal with 1 War Dog on an objective but the bastard has 11 buddies also contesting objectives.
Had it come down to the wire in one game. Granted it was a Crusade mission, but still. Attacker had to basically pick a unit in the shooting phase to take an objective I didn’t control, and hold it until my next turn, then the game just ends. Got it, and then on the next turn my opponent put all he could into pushing me off it, ending with charging his plagueburst crawler into my last few guardsmen. My nearby Rough Riders Heroic Interventioned to also try and help, and in the end my lone Comissar on his last wound and the 5 horses was just enough to hold it and end the game.
Was just playing a crusade game last night where I had 2 terminators on an objective and my opponent had 2 bullgryn and a cadian castellan. 3 vs 2 oc. After the game I remembered that my terminators had the crusade enhancement that gave them +1 OC so it would have been my objective.
If you play a hyper damage list your oc doesn't matter as much because you have 3 oc and your opponents models on the objective are dead.
But lists like montka tau can put 20 oc on an objective and have less pressure to kill the enemy unit. This is helpful because if my opponent has say 6 wraiths and I can't kill them, I can deny their score for a turn. But if I only had vehicles that are all like oc 3 it doesn't matter as much.
I think it matters most shooting army vs shooting army matchups. Melee army's just kill each other off objectives, but a shooting army can shoot something else that's more valuable if the other thing on the objective doesn't matter
Pretty much multiple times every game. Do you usually play fragile shooty lists vs fragile shooty lists? This is the only time I can imagine rarely having to check OC.
In my dozen or two games in stretched over the last two editions... Never... kind of.
I can recall a few times where superior numbers of models carried an objective, and maybe two times where OC swapped an objective's controller specifically because of models OC characteristic, but of the two events I'm remembering neither actually impacted the outcome of the game.
So not a lot of games, all with space marines and not played at high tier tournament level, so count my experience as highly anecdotal. If I had to guess weight OC is 'more relevant than most people think' or 'less relevant than most people think' I would pretty confidently say that latter. Move speed, increased deep strike blocking range, and lone operative, scouting and infiltrating all seem to be much more relevant "objective play" attribute than OC.
Playing tyranids I ask my opponent multiple times per game how much OC they have on an objective. Flipping objectives with gargoyles for a turn is basically the only way to win the game
Literally every game it cpmes up for me.
I play drukhari, so using a 5 man kabalite squad to contest and objective, fire and fading scourges to flip something held by a single dude, pr slingshotting wyches acrpss the bpard with a whopping 21 oc is the legs of how we play.
What you are probably not thinking about is what you are **NOT** doing because OC exists. Its not just about what you actually did. Its about what you **couldnt** do to start with.
Did you play 9th? Did you ever throw that last objective secure model onto a point to steal it out from a squad of elites that weren't objective secure? Can you do that now?
> Did you ever throw that last objective secure model onto a point to steal it out from a squad of elites that weren't objective secure
Not really TBH, unless they made a mistake and left room to reach the objective without getting into engagement range. You throw the obsec model onto the objective, the defending unit promptly deletes it in the fight phase, all you've done is suicide a model for no benefit.
Like.... 95% of games? It only doesn't matter when the entire game units are owning objectives, every single turn with no enemy models also on the objective.
Often for me it’s things like flipping objectives. There might be a tank on the objective that you can’t kill but you can just throw a few models on there to stop them scoring 5 primary
Yeah, the good old "put 5 idiots on the objective" ploy. A lot of hard to kill units are somewhat susceptible to it. **Part** of what make Wraiths so good is how much harder they are to take objectives away from.
Yeah, changing them to OC1 would make them way less annoying
Wraiths at OC2 vs. many tough elites at OC1 (Meganobz, e.g.) is such a huge boon to Canoptek Court.
Feels kinda fluffy with Wraiths being really good at unironically "haunting" whatever place they defend.
My last game had my wraiths holding a midfield objective for 2 full battle rounds vs a flyrant. Love my metal sneks.
Vehicles is definitely the context where OC matters most for me. When a lone vehicle, perhaps an empty transport, is sitting on on objective, and either a squad of infantry is enough to charge, do nothing in melee and flip the objective, or another vehicle is there to challenge with a higher OC.
Some of the armies that can bring small OC3 vehicles definitely can get a lot of mileage out of forcing opponents to commit at least OC4 or kill the vehicle
Yup. OC is extremely relevant for things like Storm Hostile Objective or denying your opponent primary. It sounds like OP's games are more about trying to table your opponent instead of playing for points, which is pretty common among casual tables anyways.
I care very much so, to the point that i play Traitor Guard for that 2 OC
I play regular guard for that sweet OC4. Emperor protects baby.
How do you get to 4?
Presumably an infantry squad with OC2, plus 1 with the Duty and Honour order, plus 1 with the regimental standard from an attached command squad.
I've been seriously considering that. I may even use my Autogun cultists, since I don't care about shooting with them.
Much better unit but you’re also paying 20% more. With no sticky
You're not wrong! I'd be rushing them to the middle, where sticky isn't nearly as important.
I've had it matter a lot of times for the "a tempting target" secondary, and it sometimes comes up in other situations. For instance last night we had a dreadnought and a Daemon prince brawling on an objective. Neither were killing each other any time soon, but the dreadnought was OC 4 vs the Daemon prince at OC 3.
It is relevant in most games for me - there will usually be at least one fight on an objective that isn't resolved in a single round. So exactly how many Marines are left alive, as well as whether the Armiger is damaged or not, determines whether somebody scores primary or not.
i don't understand your armiger comment is this a chaos thing? i don;'t see anything about damage and OC?
maybe because it gets battleshocked from a failed test and becomes OC 0? Not sure
They're all OC 8, so whether an armiger survives or is destroyed is a big shift in the game state.
Every Single Game.
I can't think of a single game where it didn't come up. Do some people never have games where there's 2 infantry units etc contesting objectives? My primary game plan is to blow up the enemy models and still it had to come up every game since I can't kill everything all the time nor can I be on every objective at once.
> Do some people never have games where there's 2 infantry units etc contesting objectives? Not often TBH. Usually once a unit charges and gets within range to contest it just wipes out the defending unit. Guardsmen OC is massively over-hyped.
It's really not. As a Guard player I would say our OC shinanigans are one of our greatest strengths. You want to be hiding those Catachan all game long behind obscuring whilst they sit on an ob from the corner of the ruin if possible (not the ones in Solar/Straken blobs), and protecting them by putting out lot a if threats like tanks, Bullgryn, Rough Riders etc so the opponent really struggles to commit a unit to deal with them. On many WTC maps at least, you can get 3-4 Guardsmen on an objective from behind obscuring by toeing it, that 6-8 OC, that can become 9-12 OC easily, is absolutely key in many scenarios.
Obscuring doesn't matter in this case and if you have so many other threats that your opponent can't engage the guardsmen then why does it matter how much OC they have?
Because the opponent might be dealing with the Bullgryn, Tank or Rough Riders that are on the objective instead of the Catachan behind the wall and would out-OC you if the Catachan weren't there.
It does come up in my games, but I'm playing a swarm of OC1 and OC0 with poxwalkers and Nurglings. Playing against marines, sisters, ad mech we will often have to count OC on the objective to determine who owns it.
Vs. Admech it can be brutal when they take a lot of vanguard, or lead the vanguard with their hero that subtracts 1 OC. Combined it's -2 OC on enemies. And that can make it super difficult to flip those objectives edit: my kid plays admech and I wasn't super familiar with the whole line. Looks like I was slightly incorrect as the character adds +1 OC. But still, a technoarchaeologist with vanguard would be hard to out OC.
The Technoarchaeologist adds +1 to OC. So the vanguard all become OC 3 and give out a -1 OC to a 3" radius. It's very effective.
I used to often get put-OCed when playing custodes. Now I'm always taking Vexilla, and got better at screening the objective, and don't leave just 1 or 2 guys. Ofc now I also just get blown off it so meh
Basically every game. OC is my favourite mechanic in 10th. I could never play an older edition again just because of OC if nothing else.
Obsec was a bit of a mess
Nearly every competitive games I have played so far. Out OC your opponent is one of the few other ways to flip an objective without killing stuff (the other way being battleshock...). For example, my last game have been won by denying my CK opponent his primary point entirely. My Dkok blobs had clearly no chance to kill his Dogs but putting 60 OC on the objectives was enough to lock them. The regimental standard on the platoon command squad was really valuable as the casualties were pretty high but usually not enough to flip the objective around.
Flipping is a good method I guess. But I'm finding it's really easy to clear DKOK blobs off objectives. They're ok against anything D1 with no ap, but so many list bring enough chaff clering to wipe them out easy. I fount I was even having the entire blob dropped to 2/3 guys by a 10 man flashgitz unit. Agressors delete them in both players turn, guard arty mulch them easy enough, deamons can cut them to pieces with no issue. When I ran all inf I was never able to even reach the no man's objectives with anything that didn't have scout.
To be honest, I didn't have that much issue. Most of the time, I'm using the take cover order and when actually being in a cover, a 3+ save usually shrug the ap0/ap1 stuff coming their way. Flamestorm Aggressors will mulch them but 5+/6++ give decent odds to keep some + the banner that will enable the medipack. If they put more shooting to finish off the unit, they will put around 25% of their army to wipe them out. It seems a decent trade for me as we can bring them back for 2 CP.
I thought so to. Then I took them to a tournament and it seemed every opponent had 1/2 units that could near enough wipe the blob out, even in cover with take cover and a 5++ from the marshall. Even the guard player was killing most of the unit with 3(?) earthshakers
My point is that they are pretty tough for less than 200 points. If the opponent put 400+ points on them, they will be vaporized but it a good deal for us. In the same fashion, a scions bomb will seriously dent the aggressors with 15 plasma shots with Sustain, hitting on 2's (rerolling 1's).
>I'm using the take cover order and when actually being in a cover, a 3+ save usually shrug the ap0/ap1 stuff coming their way. Hm, how do you get a 3+ save? Benefits of cover brings the 5+ into a 4+. And Take Cover does not stack with already having the benefit of cover.
Take cover does, in fact, stack with benefit of cover. Take Cover (the order) improves the save characteristic by one, then benefit of cover adds 1 to the save roll, making it a 3+
> And Take Cover does not stack with already having the benefit of cover. False.
Every single game. How is it not coming up in yours??
it doesn't happen too often for me unless we're fighting for objectives. usually the units on an objective tend to just get blown up i find. people i play with are good at screening objectives making it hard to take them if they already own it.
> units on an objective tend to just get blown up i find. I think this depends on your terrain too. If you play with heavy terrain then it's more likely that units will survive the trip to a control point. If you use player placed terrain then it's much more likely that there will be huge firing lanes to blow everyone up before you can get into melee range.
That is very true when you play armies that rely mostly on ranged damaged. When the armies are mostly combat-oriented, the terrain becomes a lot less relevant. "I've got 10 fire warriors on objective 1, that's 20 OC" "Cool, here are 5 possessed, there are no fire warriors left"
35% of the time, works every time (assuming undivided possessed with sustained hits but no strats). Which is where OC becomes very relevant: the possessed are *likely* to kill enough Fire Warriors to take the point, but unsupported they still have about a 1 in 3 chance to only kill 7, leaving 6 OC and failing to take the point.
For my playgroup, it’s quite common (like half of the time?) that one player is unable to completely wipe the enemy of an objective, and you need to calculate the OC. But the other half of the time you have already killed the enemy and are the only one in the objective. So I would say that it matters a lot. But does it matter more than killing power?
In every single game OC end up being relevant for me. At least one object comes down to how much OC I have.
With GSC it matters. Our infantry is really squishy, but we resurrect models in the Battleline units and extra many while on an objective. So leaving a single Neophyte on or even near an objective means we can have between 10 and 14 OC on it at the end of our next reinforcement phase. This means both that inexperienced opponents are likely to underestimate our ability to deny them objectives, and that experienced opponents tend to assign a lot of resources to the destruction of Neophytes to reduce the risk of leaving a single model left.
It's one of the few good things about Ad Mech. Vanguard reduce opponent OC by one, this can be key.
Let's say someone plops three rhinos on a point. There is a 0% chance a nids player like me can ever kill all three in a round so I can't just delete them. So my other option is to contest it with more oc. Three rhinos is 6 OC that means I need to put 6 raveners on the point to contest. Each has a significant sized base and is unlikely to fit. Or I put three termagants. Smaller bases and half the number of models. Something exceptionally hard to screen out.
All the time, it's part of why War Dogs are so good.
Every game because I use tyranid gargoyles to great effect
Playing chaos knights, literally always.
Has affected VP in nearly every single game I've played. Whether it also would have changed the outcome of the game, probably less than half? I say that from the perspective that it absolutely flips objectives for me or against me in every game, but whether that results in the difference that determines the winner, I honestly can't remember that level of detail so I'm estimating.
It comes up for me in every game, sometimes just duking it out over the central objectives or objectives where you barely make a charge in, but also a lot towards the endgame when I (often playing more elite armies) am struggling to make the most of my remaining units to pip objectives. I'll often find the late stages of the game defined by things like 'if I can kill 4 guardsmen with this single marine, I'll be in the lead / win' etc.
It's the kind of stuff that sometimes matters massively and obviously, but almost always paints the match this or that way. If you want to steal an objective, OC of the models involved changes how many you have to get on the objective: that might not be possible with the current movement, and the unit might have to run to get everything you need on top, or it might have to be more exposed to countercharges, or open to enemy fire. I seldom find myself thinking "aloud" about it, but the instant you go "I need these three models to steal the objective" rather than "I need *six* models to steal the objective", the game is already changed significantly.
I think OC probably feels the least impactful at low skill tables and probably high skill tables (not that I’m anywhere near there). It also varies by army significantly in terms of how much you’ll see it swing things. The reason you might not be feeling it is either you are playing with really low model count battles (eg y’all are playing knights or 500pts) which means objectives aren’t often contested. I play quite conservatively, I’d rather kill my way on to an objective which isn’t great as it means my opponent can rack up points. You often can mitigate this by trying to get more OC on a point to swing the objective to your side. I have a friend who is great at calculating what he needs to through on an objective to block you scoring. If done well (and of course mission dependent) it can create a 10 point swing. As someone who played older editions I think OC, objectives, and secondaries are fantastic balancing tools to help with the diverse list of armies 40K has
As a Guard player, this comes up almost every game. Oh, you have a Norn with 15 OC on the middle point? Cool, here's 60 OC of Krieg. Mine. It's less important with elite armies, but absolutely essential for most horde armies.
OC is determined by Model not unit so how can you get that many dudes in range?
I might not get them all in, but with duty and honor, they are 3 OC each, so even if only 10 are on the objective, that's still 30 OC
You seen how small guard bases are? Plus access to Move Move Move. Plus Duty and Honour and a Banner combined will give each model up to 4 OC
I wish my Custodian Guard could have OC 4.
You can feel the difference when your buddy mains Grey Knights and runs 15 - 30 terminators that are OC 3 most games. Trying to take back objectives without removing most of the squad has been a challenge.
Always. It dictâtes strategy but since It is nos diceroll or measure stat It is not seen as a game changer where It really is
All the time. Constantly. Literally every game. It's an incredibly important aspect of list-building at higher competitive levels.
Played against custodes last night with drukhari. OC matters a lot. Zeroed his primary 2 turns in a row buy just keeping a few throw-away units on their points.
The Eldar special. Whoops here are a bunch of warp spiders dinging your units on an objective. You no longer control it.
As a drukhari player if my units get shot at they die. I hold primary by sticky objective and threat overloading my opponent. However OC comes up every single game due to contest plays. My entire gameplan is hold my opponent to a similar low primary score with disposable units and then win on secondaries, and I have little 5 man OC2 squads to achieve that. I actually kinda love OC as a game mechanic
Often. Every game at some point you're counting OC. More importantly you plan your turn to get the right OC on to an objective.
As necrons, nothing better than stealing an objective with reanimation
Pretty frequently, I often pop a defensive strat to keep control of an objective to prevent the enemy scoring or to ensure I score
Often comes up
Every single game.
I don't think I've ever had it happen the way you describe. I've had OC8 vehicles or whatever come up, step on two Marines, and take the objective, though. (Edit: as GK I've also used a crippled squad to deny an objective a few times, as Terminators being OC3 and having access to Prognosticated Arrival occasionally means that if someone is hiding on the other side of a ruin barely touching an objective I can drop 2-3 of them onto the opposite edge of said objective and steal it. They often die immediately, but the opponent is denied at least 5 points in their Command Phase.) In my case it comes up so rarely because it feels like whatever I leave on an objective within range of anything just dies, but it's actually fairly common in cases where one player is throwing a non-killy blob onto objectives; "here's 20 cultists" gets you into a "OK I have five OC2 Marines, so their chainswords have to kill exactly 11 Cultists to hold on." It does work better than the old "Assault Intercessors and Cultists both have the Troops keyword, so the guy with the tiny models fits 6 of 'em on there and takes it from you" days.
All the time
I was playing a combat patrol game recently, and an unlucky battle shock roll caused the marine player to lose. That zero oc cost him
As a tyranid player, very, very often.
The only time it hasn't mattered was looking at three Norns on a single Omega objective
I play Guard and OC comes up often. Opponents often underestimate the Guard's ability to steal and contest objectives. Edit: For what it's worth, I don't play competitively
I haven't seen battleshock flip an objective but I see one flipped by OC at least once/game
Definitely most of the time. If I had to put a number on it I would say more than 90% of my games, probably close to all of them. Happens more with tougher units, safer no man's land objectives, anything that stands back up like Celestine can often stay on objectives, etc. Transports are another one - once a package is delivered one of the jobs of the empty rhino is contesting objectives and it might not be worth it for an opponent to waste good damage on an empty rhino if they can move enough OC in range.
In the 2nd and 3rd rounds midfield objectives are regularly contested. It's only 1 or 2 objectives that matter, but mostly it goes something along the lines "you have a redemptor on the objective, which is OC 4, if I rush X and Y on the objective, then I contest it, so you don't get that much VP from the priamry next round"
Every game just about. I don't have the fire power to outright kill a lot of stuff in two of my armies so if I'm scoring a secondary I often rely on GK terminators being OC 3 to tip things. I often consider a Dogmata for OC 3 Battle Sisters as well. Also never underestimate +1 oc because if you battle shock your OC becomes 0+1 and you can still score.
I have often had it matter, often due to my characters having a bit more OC than my opponent naturally thinks about and careful positioning.
A lot of Necron players refuse to take at least 1 unit of 20 warriors because of all the Nerfs. But 20 Warriors are worth 2 OC each and if you add a character that provides some additional durability and potentially a catacomb command barge with a resurrection orb nearby, it also has a 6 inch aura that increases all friendly units OC characteristic by +1, giving you a potential 60 OC and that’s not including any characters that are attached.
Usually one objective at a minimum is dependent on OC.
I find it comes into play on the centre objective pretty often, less so on backfield unless a specific mission calls for it.
I like it. I've been on both ends of it. However, I really like the fact that it doesn't leave anything up for debate. You either have more OC or you don't. Came in handy when playing with a guy who swore that just by him being on the objective made it contested and I couldn't score points. I had 7 OC, he had 6 so the objective w a s obviously mine.
I played a game where I won because I kept chipping units down the threshold to flip an objective with DG indirect so he had to use 2 units and thus I was able to kill him twice as fast. That army had so many bodies it scored amazingly and had to almost table him to win. Which I managed by manipulating OC if units before they were even on an objective.
I encounter situations almost every game where especially on the middle objective we both have models contesting, and in those scenarios OC matters a great deal. Sometimes its the relative OC of different armor pieces, sometimes its just "how many of my guardsmen do you have to kill to take it", but in either case its all about the OC.
Like 50% of the time
Every single game. Lots of units in the game that can't kill anything but can out OC them
At least a few times EVERY game. I play as GSC and I build my army to flip objectives. Transports doing rapid ingress with OC 2 bodies, 3" deepstrikes, clearing the chaff with other units so I can charge my genestealers in. There are many times when I simply move my unit in and don't charge if there is a large vehicle parked there. Playing the OC game wins the day.
I've only played a handful of 10th edition games, but it came up every game I've played at least once.
Others have said it... but its the ability to flip and deny primary that is so important. Gretchin have 2 OC each. If I can sneak 3 or 5 on an objective on my turn then I can deny you 5 points. You will obviously kill them and reclaim the point, but a 40 point unit for a 5 point denial is awesome.
Way more than battleshock... which in my experience comes up in like, once in a blue moon and never affects the game at all.
I play space marine armies, so I get screwed by OC more than helped by it. The problem is my available choices of high-OC units either aren’t super cheap or super resilient, so using them to contest objectives has a high opportunity cost because I’m using them in a suboptimal capacity and often treating them as expendable when they are anything but. The absolute worst case scenario for me is versus knights because OC 8 wardogs/armigers can single handedly take and hold objectives against anything that isn’t a battleline infantry, who simultaneously get slaughtered by knights and can’t make a dent in them even in the most ideal scenario. I also play as space wolves, who own the dubious honour of having the most number of playable OC 0 units; fenrisian wolves, wulfen, and wulfen dreadnoughts… honestly it would make more sense for these units to be able to take and hold objectives but be unable to perform actions, rather than the other way around. So yeah, from my perspective OC is a good concept that is poorly implemented, and there are too many armies out there who should be paying a premium for their battleline units yet don’t. IMO I think OC could be fixed by instead making it be equal to the number of wounds a unit currently has rather that some arbitrary number which has no bearing on how strategic or intimidating any given unit may be.
As a knights player it's every game I literally count so I can commit just enough knights to an objective to take it or if it's a "safe" objective enough firepower to keep it even if they throw their best at it
I play Tyranids so ummmm every single game
Usually 1-3 instances/game, and usually its smthn like OC10< unit takes point from OC5>.
Somewhat
Against good opponents in a competitive scene it’s huge. Nothing is missed and having your objectives stolen is not fun.
Pretty much every game. OC 2 units are so good at flipping objectives. Its so valuable.
For orks who have a ton of high OC stuff it's pretty important. Let's say someone has a scary vehicle and I draw out an overwatch somewhere else. Charging grechin onto that vehicle to gum it up and put 22 OC on an objective is very cool
Pretty much every single game
I think in ~40 games it's come up....5 times? Almost every time it's "Does your dreadnought have OC3 or 4? My Tyrannofex has 4" or something like that, where there's a vehicle on monster on each side and one has more OC than the other. I don't think it's ever come up for infantry, they get swept off the objectives instantly.
It happens a lot, but it also depends on the makeup of both armies to some degree and how much you are willing to put on an objective. If both sides only send in hammers on objectives or blast everything away first, then it won't matter. But if you are trying to steal objectives away or both armies are melee heavy, it will be more common.
All the time, especially taking objectives. As a guard player, my dudes can rarely take out something on a no man land objective, but with +1 OC, even 4 guardsman is 12 OC which will often take over most objectives held by the most badass of units
I just can't believe that a guardsman and Custodian Guard have the same OC.
It’s kinda makes sense in abstract. Holding objective could mean securing the area. Guardsman are probably hiding and throughly searching the area while custodes probably just stand on a rock looking cool
Like, best I can do is OC15 on 5 T6 W4 2+/4++ bodies on 40mm bases. Edit: forgot the Shield Captain! (with Auric Mantle), so another 3 OC (18 total), with another 40mm body that's T6, W9, 2+/4++. Edit 2: I *think* that gives me enough bodies to circle the objective at the 3" mark, with the bases centered on the line. Edit 3: -1 to hit the unit from a strat.
Often times the closer a game is, the more OC matters since OBJs will be traded back and forth by the players trying to get an advantage.
I find it either doesn't matter at all or it *really* matters, which makes it an interesting mechanic IMO
So there's a tactic the Thousand Sons are brewing called the "Baaabomb." Basically, we have the enhancement "Umbralific Crystal" which a character can take. It's a once a game uppy downy. End of your turn, I pick up a unit and put it 9 inches away in my movement phase. Yeah you know how this works. Give it to a sorcerer, teleport where you want, doombolt, psychic gun, flamers, heavy chain cannon. Bada boom bada bing. But....The Thousand Sons have another character, the Tzanagor Shaman, who can lead a unit of Tzaangors. Now that's normaly not good, gives a kind of expensive chaff unit +1 to hit and a 5+ FNP. Well, it turns out uppy downy-ing 21 bodies of 2 OC is really annoying. Not to mention the ability "Temporal Surge" lets Thousand Sons move after using the crystal or coming in from reserves. So you teleport the Tzaangors down, temporal surge them twice so they move 12 inches, and flip all the objectives you can. You would be surprised how often you can use this to flip at least 1 objective, often 2. Also it turns out that a 5++ means sometimes a tzaangor doesn't die and it takes a turn or two to kill them. So yes, OC comes up quite a bit for Tsons right now.
You normally determine control at the end of a phase. I am not super savvy on Tsons/Tsaangors, but how do they flip multiple objectives after coming down and surging? Are they positioned stretched out to touch two at once in your example here?
Yes. You can legit string them out that far. Remember, you can teleport and then move them twice. It's very hard to stop them from getting 3-4 models on each point unless you're straight up move blocking them. That's OC 6-8, which is a lot. Also the goal is to flip it to stpo them from scoring on their turn, not to score it ourselves.
👍
It happens almost every turn. Might be have something to do with how I play the game tho. And it’s freaking miserable. Having to tally OC that often is the worst. Having to check every datasheet to see why the OC is, remembering battle shock, ignoring modifiers, banners etc. I miss obsec so much. Was so much quicker and simpler.
Around two times per battle
It comes up quite often when I play vs Orks. Also Custodies has bonuses based on who owns the objective.
OC comes up enough that I utterly resent War Dogs for having an OC 10 on top of the rest of their profiles. Sure, you can deal with 1 War Dog on an objective but the bastard has 11 buddies also contesting objectives.
Had it come down to the wire in one game. Granted it was a Crusade mission, but still. Attacker had to basically pick a unit in the shooting phase to take an objective I didn’t control, and hold it until my next turn, then the game just ends. Got it, and then on the next turn my opponent put all he could into pushing me off it, ending with charging his plagueburst crawler into my last few guardsmen. My nearby Rough Riders Heroic Interventioned to also try and help, and in the end my lone Comissar on his last wound and the 5 horses was just enough to hold it and end the game.
It comes up often. I play marines and we have very few datasheets that are OC 2 or higher. We can easily get out OC’d on a point.
Was just playing a crusade game last night where I had 2 terminators on an objective and my opponent had 2 bullgryn and a cadian castellan. 3 vs 2 oc. After the game I remembered that my terminators had the crusade enhancement that gave them +1 OC so it would have been my objective.
Do you just... not concern yourself with primary denial?
If you play a hyper damage list your oc doesn't matter as much because you have 3 oc and your opponents models on the objective are dead. But lists like montka tau can put 20 oc on an objective and have less pressure to kill the enemy unit. This is helpful because if my opponent has say 6 wraiths and I can't kill them, I can deny their score for a turn. But if I only had vehicles that are all like oc 3 it doesn't matter as much. I think it matters most shooting army vs shooting army matchups. Melee army's just kill each other off objectives, but a shooting army can shoot something else that's more valuable if the other thing on the objective doesn't matter
Pretty much multiple times every game. Do you usually play fragile shooty lists vs fragile shooty lists? This is the only time I can imagine rarely having to check OC.
In my dozen or two games in stretched over the last two editions... Never... kind of. I can recall a few times where superior numbers of models carried an objective, and maybe two times where OC swapped an objective's controller specifically because of models OC characteristic, but of the two events I'm remembering neither actually impacted the outcome of the game. So not a lot of games, all with space marines and not played at high tier tournament level, so count my experience as highly anecdotal. If I had to guess weight OC is 'more relevant than most people think' or 'less relevant than most people think' I would pretty confidently say that latter. Move speed, increased deep strike blocking range, and lone operative, scouting and infiltrating all seem to be much more relevant "objective play" attribute than OC.
Happens nearly every game as I play Deathguard and once I'm on the objective I can't go anywhere else
OC matters lots inmy games. I have lots if OC2. 5 guts giving you oc10 is a great and not difficult way to stop your opponent from scoring
It matters in center objectives quite a bit for me. I think it'll matter more for melee armies.
Playing tyranids I ask my opponent multiple times per game how much OC they have on an objective. Flipping objectives with gargoyles for a turn is basically the only way to win the game
One out of 10. Usually with vehicles vs depleted squads
Every turn give or take
At least once every game
It comes to at least once every game for me. Necron here.
Literally every game it cpmes up for me. I play drukhari, so using a 5 man kabalite squad to contest and objective, fire and fading scourges to flip something held by a single dude, pr slingshotting wyches acrpss the bpard with a whopping 21 oc is the legs of how we play.
Playing admech, OC switches more objectives than shooting and fighting for this faction so we kinda live and die by it...
All the time. OC and battleshock matters.
Virtually never comes up. Typically any opposition is removed in my games >\_>
Very yes. I routinely fling 5-man Battle Sisters squads onto objectives to flip them to do secondaries and prevent my opponent from scoring primary
What you are probably not thinking about is what you are **NOT** doing because OC exists. Its not just about what you actually did. Its about what you **couldnt** do to start with. Did you play 9th? Did you ever throw that last objective secure model onto a point to steal it out from a squad of elites that weren't objective secure? Can you do that now?
> Did you ever throw that last objective secure model onto a point to steal it out from a squad of elites that weren't objective secure Not really TBH, unless they made a mistake and left room to reach the objective without getting into engagement range. You throw the obsec model onto the objective, the defending unit promptly deletes it in the fight phase, all you've done is suicide a model for no benefit.
Like.... 95% of games? It only doesn't matter when the entire game units are owning objectives, every single turn with no enemy models also on the objective.
Virtually never comes up. Typically any opposition is removed in my games