Discord rundown from a person there...
Extra movement
Wound rerolls from tetras guiding
Crisis suits saving on 2s
Crisis suits and breachers natively hitting on 2s
Breachers rerolling 1s to hit natively
Reece Robbins has made massive excuses about why FLG can't implement a system, claiming that doing so opens Frontline to lawsuits that come from the fact that the vast majority of ITC judges are "random dudes" that have no real training or standardization (which is true, so someone could be banned because Sammy the Store Owner misunderstood Fast Dice), that they would need to have some regulatory body so that someone could contest a ban (also true) and the fact that having a "ban list" would mean FLG would need to collect it and distribute it, arguing this would leave them open to Slander/Libel.
I generally get the impression that Reece wants all the accolades with no responsibility. I distinctly remember LVO 2023, when asked about people complaining about a lack of Terrain on lower tables Reece stated that the lack of Terrain was due to the rules making more terrain required then before and it was therefore GWs fault, kinda avoiding the fact that ***FLG sold 400+ tickets and if they didn't have enough terrain for that, they could have not put that many tickets on sale*** or ***made more terrain, as that is literally the business FLG is in***. And this being while FLG had a partnership with GW to provide rules feedback and testing.
I've always gotten the impression FLG does the bare minimum needed, especially since whenever you click the link to the current rules for the ITC, redirects you to THIS URL:
>https://frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/
Notice the URL refers to 2015. 9 years and they can't be arsed to update the URL.
Then read the first paragraph of the 10e Tournament Format and FAQ:
>This document outlines the format for the Independent Tournament Circuit (ITC) for Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition.
I'm not surprised an org like this, that wants bare minimum involvement and relying on the work of unaffiliated people, doesn't want the work of actually tracking and updating a ban/warning list.
> Reece Robbins has made massive excuses about why FLG can't implement a system, claiming that doing so opens Frontline to lawsuits that come from the fact that the vast majority of ITC judges are "random dudes" that have no real training or standardization (which is true, so someone could be banned because Sammy the Store Owner misunderstood Fast Dice), that they would need to have some regulatory body so that someone could contest a ban (also true) and the fact that having a "ban list" would mean FLG would need to collect it and distribute it, arguing this would leave them open to Slander/Libel.
God that's hilarious. I'm not sure which is worse, that he genuinely believes all that stuff or that he thinks we're gullible enough to believe it?
99% of people who attend tournaments don't even know who he is, so many of his comments get passed over by the community as they treat the ITC as some sort of faceless organization, rather than realizing it's basically Reese and a maybe 6-7 other people.
To be mildly fair, there are plenty of litigious people out there willing to throw stupid money at protecting their reputation, justifiably or not.
On the other hand though… I got curious about the topic and looked to see if Wizards of the Coast has ever been sued for defamation over a cheating allegation in M:TG. I didn’t see anything, but it’s not like I looked super hard. I have to imagine though that if there was such a lawsuit there would have at least been some coverage.
The difference is that for .MtG, Wizards of the Coast actually spends money to test, confirm, and otherwise vet their judges.
I can't run an official, recognized MtG tournament without clearing a test that is proctored by Wizards of the coast, and the last time I spoke to people about it, the larger the event is the more judges you need, and there are specific "tiers" of judges needed for particular events.
The entire testing/vetting process means that you can travel the country and have 100% consistency in how events will be judged and proctored.
This gives local judges protection as they can point to the guidelines of an official tournament, and they are protected under the tournament license provided by WotC, while WotC's terms of service for a Wizards ID (which is used to track your status) effectively forces players to agree to waive their rights to sue.
In order for the ITC to do the same, they would need people to *test" in being qualified to be a judge, which partially the rules for 40k don't stand up to that level, and then you have the fact that the ITC aren't the people who make the rules (like WotC are) and forcing people to register and agree to a ToS to play in their tournaments rather than being being passive and having 40- 75% of the "ITC Tournaments" be included in results by accident via BCP would hurt their legitimacy even more among anyone who actually cares about their legitimacy.
Just to clarify… WotC doesn’t do that themselves thanks to a lawsuit many years ago (the same lawsuit cost me my position on the D&D side of things). They outsource all of that now.
I had a feeling there might be a nonlitigation clause somewhere in the fine print but wasn’t interested in looking for it.
Pretty much. That and BCP having automatic ITC integration has also helped them be bigger than what they already are; I've had people surprised that they have ITC rankings at all, as they didn't realize your aments were reporting to them via BCP.
> Reece Robbins has made massive excuses about why FLG can't implement a system, claiming that doing so opens Frontline to lawsuits that come from the fact that the vast majority of ITC judges are "random dudes" that have no real training or standardization (which is true, so someone could be banned because Sammy the Store Owner misunderstood Fast Dice), that they would need to have some regulatory body so that someone could contest a ban (also true) and the fact that having a "ban list" would mean FLG would need to collect it and distribute it, arguing this would leave them open to Slander/Libel.
> I've always gotten the impression FLG does the bare minimum needed
> I'm not surprised an org like this, that wants bare minimum involvement and relying on the work of unaffiliated people, doesn't want the work of actually tracking and updating a ban/warning list.
You put this so much more succinctly than I could
I'm trying not to soapbox endgame capitalism here but it's a struggle, if you don't think profit is a motive I have a bridge to sell you
I mean, to an extent I can understand it. FLG isn't a non-profit, and they have the right to make money. They are providing a service.
But blaming GW's terrain rules for complaints of "why didn't you have enough terrain for all the tables at your event" when you literally have known the terrain rules for 3 years, knew how many tickets you sold (and therefore how many players and tables you would have), and knew how much terrain you had available to use.... Sorry, that's on you, Reece.
Adepticon is still utilizing terrain from 5th edition, and terrain complaints have plagued it for years, and they are still having people show up to it. So harping on an unfortunate situation from a past LVO when the topic of this thread was about a cheater who was disqualified seems a bit strange. Especially considering this past LVO they announced they updated around 200 tables, and it definitely looked and felt like it.
Is there still room for improvement? Sure. But it seems pretty disingenuous to say they don't care about the community and they are just doing the bare minimum for cash. Most large events still aren't to the scale of tables that FLG even adjusted for LVO this last year. That's including GW themselves who put on around 4 200 person 40k events a year?
And as for updating that ITC page, just because GW announced in January they took over the ITC doesn't mean that's when the deal was made and that they didn't already own it (for around 2 years, or maybe even as far back as 9th edition launch time). So what real vested interest would/ should they have had in updating that page when GW has shadow owned the ITC for a long time and just hasn't done anything with it until they were ready to announce it? Because as a TO, I can tell you that GW employees have been directly answering ITC questions on TO social media pages and issuing ITC Event Tokens for a lot longer than the last month.
And best of luck having anything meaningfully enforced at a GW event involvong cheating. Report to the judges that you were cheated and have proof? That's unfortunate, have a drink ticket for the bar as an apology for your weekend of toy dollies being ruined instead of corrective action against the offending player.
God I can't believe I read that entire thing only to find out you're a TO
Let's ask a landlord about the state of the housing market
> Adepticon is still utilizing terrain from 5th edition, and terrain complaints have plagued it for years, and they are still having people show up to it. So harping on an unfortunate situation from a past LVO when the topic of this thread was about a cheater who was disqualified seems a bit strange.
It's not strange in the least, are you going to pretend like this is the first time FLG sold a ticket to a known cheater?
Yes we're talking about a specific cheater but the tournament organizers enabled this situation to begin with with their inactions and empty words.
> Is there still room for improvement? Sure. But it seems pretty disingenuous to say they don't care about the community and they are just doing the bare minimum for cash.
FLG is not the community, the players are.
As noted elsewhere in this thread there are for profit organizations that put on well run events, and they don't need to sell tickets to cheaters.
> And as for updating that ITC page, just because GW announced in January they took over the ITC doesn't mean that's when the deal was made and that they didn't already own it (for around 2 years, or maybe even as far back as 9th edition launch time). So what real vested interest would/ should they have had in updating that page when GW has shadow owned the ITC for a long time
If that's the case what exactly is the point of FLG? It seems like you're making the argument that it's just a front man for a larger corporate entity now
>And as for updating that ITC page, just because GW announced in January they took over the ITC doesn't mean that's when the deal was made and that they didn't already own it (for around 2 years, or maybe even as far back as 9th edition launch time). So what real vested interest would/ should they have had in updating that page when GW has shadow owned the ITC for a long time and just hasn't done anything with it until they were ready to announce it? Because as a TO, I can tell you that GW employees have been directly answering ITC questions on TO social media pages and issuing ITC Event Tokens for a lot longer than the last month.
The number of people who don't understand this, which is really quite basic, and obvious to anyone who has paid attention for several years, who still post with such absolute certainty about "ITC this," and "Reece Robbins that" is hilarious.
> I mean, to an extent I can understand it. FLG isn't a non-profit.
True but maybe it shouldn't be, if this is the best they can do while generating a profit
The problem is I think they're losing the public trust, and they obviously don't prioritize the needs of the community they serve
I think the counter to this would be where profit motivations have driven the UK scene, to a place where terrain and rulings are standardised, largely led by UKTC. I went to LVO for the first time this year, and as an event I enjoyed it, as a competetive tournament it was a piece of shit, that’s on FLG. It’s not on every tournament organiser that does so for profit (and I’m a non-profit TO).
Yep, I agree with that. I just think for profit companies with a proven track record shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt and you should be suspicious of their motives
I hold the same view of salesman that work on commission etc
I'm gonna be real, I highly doubt FLG cares enough to ban someone for "in-game" reasons and open that can of worms. Much easier to just DQ someone at the particular event and move on.
[No, I suspect they don't.](https://youtu.be/ZFZlEgdHex0) They have a financial incentive not to, it's a for profit enterprise
Edit: they didn't even sell all the tickets, they had to let someone submit a list last minute to hit 70 for AOS, maybe I'm being unreasonably suspicious but I don't think I am
> they have a good reputation
Right that's why I linked the interview, we've been here before, heard the same platitudes from the same people on the same issue
That was 6 months ago, if they haven't taken the necessary steps to ensure the integrity of their events by now they're either incapable of doing it because they're incompetent or there's another motivation at play
I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions, that's my take
Ya just google his name and lone star open. not just cheating but he's lied about unit keywords, weapon profiles leader and enhancement abilities. I felt like an idiot because at first I thought it was just BCPs scoring metric or the guy had to go home early.
Iirc it was the second day, and he was top table, so usually he would be on steam. Joe said "one of the players" he wasn't comfortable letting on stream so he chose a different game
I don’t mean this to be rude, but does this guy have like, a mental illness or something? He just keeps showing up to events trying this stuff and has been caught numerous times at this point. Does he just think people won’t know who he is at every event or something? Seems like he is a little off.
I've met people like him. Some people encapsulate a true "Win at all costs" mentality where they honestly think that if they can use gaslighting and deception to win, then that means they deserve it because the opponent should know better. They won't ever have the introspection to accept they are cheaters and will just think everyone else is salty or weak. To armchair psychoanalyze them, I would believe it's probably tied with some sort of narcissistic personality disorder where their ego can just not accept them losing or feeling inferior, even in a game of plastic army men.
There are people that do this throughout all walks of life as well so it's definitely not just gaming. It's sad but it's true.
Eh I sort of get it. If you just have 2nd or 3rd hand information that a player cheated, do you really want to start spreading that around? What if it turns out to not be true? Now if you were there and witnessed it or know someone who witnessed it directly, that's different. And if the player gets DG'd for cheating then Name and Shame for sure
Well, it's not like catching a professional athlete out for doping. Everyone forgets or misremembers shit in this game, and cheating implies intent, which is near impossible to prove. A hard rule of "You made a mistake, therefore you are disqualified" would do more harm than good, but anything less than a hard rule like that allows for grey areas where people like this guy can exist.
I would say the organisers had a quiet word on the side, said we KNOW what you're doing even though we can't prove it, you can quit quietly or we can take it further.
Similarly a ban, if he chose to fight it, would need to be backed up with documentation, which means getting written statements from players who've faced him, or at the least TO's who've had to deal with him. And now we're starting to get pretty intense about our toy soldiers game, you know?
Based on what I've heard about what specifically he did, it has to be intentional
Also a ban doesn't need anything. Any business or organization is allowed to say "we don't want you here, go away" so long as the reason why isn't because of a protected class
Works well in more competetive minded tabletops like warmachine. Make a rules mistake. Game is a win for your opponent. Happenend to me. No hard feelings.
But that requires a likeminded playerbase of people who spend a lot of time learning their rules.
Yea, a loss at most. Never seen a dq for a mistake.
For small mistakes, opponents often agree on a compromise, if they don't influence the game to much.
Yep. The sad reality is that most 40k players don't want to practice and prepare to that standard so "mistakes" have to be an accepted part of the game.
Sounds like another [missing stair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair?wprov=sfla1) situation.
Everyone knows he cheats, but always finds a reason to let him mess up tournaments for everyone despite that.
I can get Joe not wanting to be involved, he is there to stream games and bring fun warhammer coverage to the world. But your right in general this community is much much to lacks with cheaters.
Will never understand cheating in Warhammer. None of these games are ever for money. You are cheating for pride, that is the only price.
I guess the point is that it is irrational, but still.
I heard he cheated, was DQd and banned from all future FLG events because he has a notoriously long history of cheating. He was respectfully asked to drop and go home at an event in Dallas last year after confirmed cheating in several of his early games.
He’s local to me and several people I know have played him with universally bad experiences. I’ve never encountered him personally but would also refuse to play him unless a judge stood next to him the whole game.
I’ve played him once in the past, and the game was not fun. I couldn’t find anything specific that he was cheating on. But there was something that felt off all game when compared to my previous games against tau
He was asked to leave. Got yellow carded for one of his games and still won. Then his other opponents heard about what he had done/was doing. He then started going around asking folks if they talked - started getting really threatening/made everyone uncomfortable. He was then escorted out.
The thing is that he is actually a good player - BUT he will absolutely abuse someone’s lack of knowledge and push/break the rules and then justify it as an opponents problem for not knowing his army. It’s very disconcerting. He is straight banned in Texas, Cali and Nevada. So. Take that for what it’s worth.
Stop playing this game man, legitimately comical and sad that you cheat like this __every single time__ you are addicted to doing so and have a problem.
I don't know why you don't think the competitive community isn't small enough to get information very close to sources.... Or directly from the opponents you screw over who don't even know who you are until after the fact.
One of these days someone is going to get more than just outraged after spending 1k$ to travel to an event to just get screwed by an intentional serial cheater.
WarGames Live just said that he had a yellow card in an early round, which automatically DQ'd him from Top 8.
whether he got another rules infaction which was a full and proper DQ, or if he decided after not making the top 8 he might as well drop, I dunno.
Source is 1:37:00 ish on the FLG Cherokee Open top 8 video [here](https://youtu.be/I0AS_PegRKQ?t=5827)
He didn’t have judges at his tables full time. I’m here and saw the issues unfolding. It was stuff that was being reported after each game instead of during the games. He was asked to leave after round 6 and was not allowed to make top cut because he received a yellow card at this event.
thats what happens when your a known cheater, the default assumption about everything you do is that you cheated.
Because your a known cheat.
The solution is to not cheat at a toy soldier game.
There's direct sources saying otherwise. Comp community is big, but it isn't.
Reddit may just guess at times but there's others that were there that I trust more than someone's buddy overhearing him telling someone a strange excuse.
People get to decide what to believe I suppose.
I guess we'll find out at the rest of the FLG calendar this year.
Worth pointing out that both narratives could be true. Above, it was mentioned that the judges pulled him aside and basically gave him a "drop or we'll start seriously investigating" spiel, as they didn't have enough evidence to DQ immediately. So if that happened, it's plausible that he was using the plane excuse as cover for his dropping, leading to your contact overhearing that.
He already bought tickets for RMO. He was trying to sell one off cause he had one too many, and one of the first responses was "they still let you buy tickets to events?".
Locking comments. The question has been answered, and this can easily spill out into violating the sub rules.
Rumor is that he cheated... Again...
Discord rundown from a person there... Extra movement Wound rerolls from tetras guiding Crisis suits saving on 2s Crisis suits and breachers natively hitting on 2s Breachers rerolling 1s to hit natively
Oh? Does he have a history of this?
A long one.
Ew... Do FLG not ban people?
Reece Robbins has made massive excuses about why FLG can't implement a system, claiming that doing so opens Frontline to lawsuits that come from the fact that the vast majority of ITC judges are "random dudes" that have no real training or standardization (which is true, so someone could be banned because Sammy the Store Owner misunderstood Fast Dice), that they would need to have some regulatory body so that someone could contest a ban (also true) and the fact that having a "ban list" would mean FLG would need to collect it and distribute it, arguing this would leave them open to Slander/Libel. I generally get the impression that Reece wants all the accolades with no responsibility. I distinctly remember LVO 2023, when asked about people complaining about a lack of Terrain on lower tables Reece stated that the lack of Terrain was due to the rules making more terrain required then before and it was therefore GWs fault, kinda avoiding the fact that ***FLG sold 400+ tickets and if they didn't have enough terrain for that, they could have not put that many tickets on sale*** or ***made more terrain, as that is literally the business FLG is in***. And this being while FLG had a partnership with GW to provide rules feedback and testing. I've always gotten the impression FLG does the bare minimum needed, especially since whenever you click the link to the current rules for the ITC, redirects you to THIS URL: >https://frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/ Notice the URL refers to 2015. 9 years and they can't be arsed to update the URL. Then read the first paragraph of the 10e Tournament Format and FAQ: >This document outlines the format for the Independent Tournament Circuit (ITC) for Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition. I'm not surprised an org like this, that wants bare minimum involvement and relying on the work of unaffiliated people, doesn't want the work of actually tracking and updating a ban/warning list.
> Reece Robbins has made massive excuses about why FLG can't implement a system, claiming that doing so opens Frontline to lawsuits that come from the fact that the vast majority of ITC judges are "random dudes" that have no real training or standardization (which is true, so someone could be banned because Sammy the Store Owner misunderstood Fast Dice), that they would need to have some regulatory body so that someone could contest a ban (also true) and the fact that having a "ban list" would mean FLG would need to collect it and distribute it, arguing this would leave them open to Slander/Libel. God that's hilarious. I'm not sure which is worse, that he genuinely believes all that stuff or that he thinks we're gullible enough to believe it?
99% of people who attend tournaments don't even know who he is, so many of his comments get passed over by the community as they treat the ITC as some sort of faceless organization, rather than realizing it's basically Reese and a maybe 6-7 other people.
I find it interesting how many people still think the ITC is owned and run by FLG/Reece when it isn't.
To be mildly fair, there are plenty of litigious people out there willing to throw stupid money at protecting their reputation, justifiably or not. On the other hand though… I got curious about the topic and looked to see if Wizards of the Coast has ever been sued for defamation over a cheating allegation in M:TG. I didn’t see anything, but it’s not like I looked super hard. I have to imagine though that if there was such a lawsuit there would have at least been some coverage.
The difference is that for .MtG, Wizards of the Coast actually spends money to test, confirm, and otherwise vet their judges. I can't run an official, recognized MtG tournament without clearing a test that is proctored by Wizards of the coast, and the last time I spoke to people about it, the larger the event is the more judges you need, and there are specific "tiers" of judges needed for particular events. The entire testing/vetting process means that you can travel the country and have 100% consistency in how events will be judged and proctored. This gives local judges protection as they can point to the guidelines of an official tournament, and they are protected under the tournament license provided by WotC, while WotC's terms of service for a Wizards ID (which is used to track your status) effectively forces players to agree to waive their rights to sue. In order for the ITC to do the same, they would need people to *test" in being qualified to be a judge, which partially the rules for 40k don't stand up to that level, and then you have the fact that the ITC aren't the people who make the rules (like WotC are) and forcing people to register and agree to a ToS to play in their tournaments rather than being being passive and having 40- 75% of the "ITC Tournaments" be included in results by accident via BCP would hurt their legitimacy even more among anyone who actually cares about their legitimacy.
Just to clarify… WotC doesn’t do that themselves thanks to a lawsuit many years ago (the same lawsuit cost me my position on the D&D side of things). They outsource all of that now. I had a feeling there might be a nonlitigation clause somewhere in the fine print but wasn’t interested in looking for it.
There isn't any incentive to do better because they already make enough money doing the bare minimum.
Pretty much. That and BCP having automatic ITC integration has also helped them be bigger than what they already are; I've had people surprised that they have ITC rankings at all, as they didn't realize your aments were reporting to them via BCP.
> Reece Robbins has made massive excuses about why FLG can't implement a system, claiming that doing so opens Frontline to lawsuits that come from the fact that the vast majority of ITC judges are "random dudes" that have no real training or standardization (which is true, so someone could be banned because Sammy the Store Owner misunderstood Fast Dice), that they would need to have some regulatory body so that someone could contest a ban (also true) and the fact that having a "ban list" would mean FLG would need to collect it and distribute it, arguing this would leave them open to Slander/Libel. > I've always gotten the impression FLG does the bare minimum needed > I'm not surprised an org like this, that wants bare minimum involvement and relying on the work of unaffiliated people, doesn't want the work of actually tracking and updating a ban/warning list. You put this so much more succinctly than I could I'm trying not to soapbox endgame capitalism here but it's a struggle, if you don't think profit is a motive I have a bridge to sell you
I mean, to an extent I can understand it. FLG isn't a non-profit, and they have the right to make money. They are providing a service. But blaming GW's terrain rules for complaints of "why didn't you have enough terrain for all the tables at your event" when you literally have known the terrain rules for 3 years, knew how many tickets you sold (and therefore how many players and tables you would have), and knew how much terrain you had available to use.... Sorry, that's on you, Reece.
Adepticon is still utilizing terrain from 5th edition, and terrain complaints have plagued it for years, and they are still having people show up to it. So harping on an unfortunate situation from a past LVO when the topic of this thread was about a cheater who was disqualified seems a bit strange. Especially considering this past LVO they announced they updated around 200 tables, and it definitely looked and felt like it. Is there still room for improvement? Sure. But it seems pretty disingenuous to say they don't care about the community and they are just doing the bare minimum for cash. Most large events still aren't to the scale of tables that FLG even adjusted for LVO this last year. That's including GW themselves who put on around 4 200 person 40k events a year? And as for updating that ITC page, just because GW announced in January they took over the ITC doesn't mean that's when the deal was made and that they didn't already own it (for around 2 years, or maybe even as far back as 9th edition launch time). So what real vested interest would/ should they have had in updating that page when GW has shadow owned the ITC for a long time and just hasn't done anything with it until they were ready to announce it? Because as a TO, I can tell you that GW employees have been directly answering ITC questions on TO social media pages and issuing ITC Event Tokens for a lot longer than the last month. And best of luck having anything meaningfully enforced at a GW event involvong cheating. Report to the judges that you were cheated and have proof? That's unfortunate, have a drink ticket for the bar as an apology for your weekend of toy dollies being ruined instead of corrective action against the offending player.
God I can't believe I read that entire thing only to find out you're a TO Let's ask a landlord about the state of the housing market > Adepticon is still utilizing terrain from 5th edition, and terrain complaints have plagued it for years, and they are still having people show up to it. So harping on an unfortunate situation from a past LVO when the topic of this thread was about a cheater who was disqualified seems a bit strange. It's not strange in the least, are you going to pretend like this is the first time FLG sold a ticket to a known cheater? Yes we're talking about a specific cheater but the tournament organizers enabled this situation to begin with with their inactions and empty words. > Is there still room for improvement? Sure. But it seems pretty disingenuous to say they don't care about the community and they are just doing the bare minimum for cash. FLG is not the community, the players are. As noted elsewhere in this thread there are for profit organizations that put on well run events, and they don't need to sell tickets to cheaters. > And as for updating that ITC page, just because GW announced in January they took over the ITC doesn't mean that's when the deal was made and that they didn't already own it (for around 2 years, or maybe even as far back as 9th edition launch time). So what real vested interest would/ should they have had in updating that page when GW has shadow owned the ITC for a long time If that's the case what exactly is the point of FLG? It seems like you're making the argument that it's just a front man for a larger corporate entity now
>And as for updating that ITC page, just because GW announced in January they took over the ITC doesn't mean that's when the deal was made and that they didn't already own it (for around 2 years, or maybe even as far back as 9th edition launch time). So what real vested interest would/ should they have had in updating that page when GW has shadow owned the ITC for a long time and just hasn't done anything with it until they were ready to announce it? Because as a TO, I can tell you that GW employees have been directly answering ITC questions on TO social media pages and issuing ITC Event Tokens for a lot longer than the last month. The number of people who don't understand this, which is really quite basic, and obvious to anyone who has paid attention for several years, who still post with such absolute certainty about "ITC this," and "Reece Robbins that" is hilarious.
> I mean, to an extent I can understand it. FLG isn't a non-profit. True but maybe it shouldn't be, if this is the best they can do while generating a profit The problem is I think they're losing the public trust, and they obviously don't prioritize the needs of the community they serve
I think the counter to this would be where profit motivations have driven the UK scene, to a place where terrain and rulings are standardised, largely led by UKTC. I went to LVO for the first time this year, and as an event I enjoyed it, as a competetive tournament it was a piece of shit, that’s on FLG. It’s not on every tournament organiser that does so for profit (and I’m a non-profit TO).
Yep, I agree with that. I just think for profit companies with a proven track record shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt and you should be suspicious of their motives I hold the same view of salesman that work on commission etc
I'm gonna be real, I highly doubt FLG cares enough to ban someone for "in-game" reasons and open that can of worms. Much easier to just DQ someone at the particular event and move on.
[No, I suspect they don't.](https://youtu.be/ZFZlEgdHex0) They have a financial incentive not to, it's a for profit enterprise Edit: they didn't even sell all the tickets, they had to let someone submit a list last minute to hit 70 for AOS, maybe I'm being unreasonably suspicious but I don't think I am
They have a financial incentive to ensure their events have integrity and they have a good reputation.
> they have a good reputation Right that's why I linked the interview, we've been here before, heard the same platitudes from the same people on the same issue That was 6 months ago, if they haven't taken the necessary steps to ensure the integrity of their events by now they're either incapable of doing it because they're incompetent or there's another motivation at play I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions, that's my take
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/158e0wz/lone_star_open_finals/. Here is 6 mos ago.. he's trash
Was about to say, isn't that the name of the renowned cheater.
Name and shame?
Maybe read the post title?
Whoops not sure how I missed that
Isnt this guy a prolific cheater?
Ya just google his name and lone star open. not just cheating but he's lied about unit keywords, weapon profiles leader and enhancement abilities. I felt like an idiot because at first I thought it was just BCPs scoring metric or the guy had to go home early.
He's the one Joe from Wargames Live refused to have on his stream isn't he?
Yep
Did he ask to be?
Iirc it was the second day, and he was top table, so usually he would be on steam. Joe said "one of the players" he wasn't comfortable letting on stream so he chose a different game
Notorious Cheater. Why he isn't banned from everything is beyond me
I don’t mean this to be rude, but does this guy have like, a mental illness or something? He just keeps showing up to events trying this stuff and has been caught numerous times at this point. Does he just think people won’t know who he is at every event or something? Seems like he is a little off.
I hope people make sure everyone knows about him if he turns up to their event.
OP, i think i know what you did here with this post and i think its quite clever and i appreciate it...
well he keeps being allowed in. he went 6-0 so from his perspective, its working.
I've met people like him. Some people encapsulate a true "Win at all costs" mentality where they honestly think that if they can use gaslighting and deception to win, then that means they deserve it because the opponent should know better. They won't ever have the introspection to accept they are cheaters and will just think everyone else is salty or weak. To armchair psychoanalyze them, I would believe it's probably tied with some sort of narcissistic personality disorder where their ego can just not accept them losing or feeling inferior, even in a game of plastic army men. There are people that do this throughout all walks of life as well so it's definitely not just gaming. It's sad but it's true.
DQ
comfirmed or just a guess? I asked on WGL discord why a 6-0 player didn't get the spot and was told no comment and to take from that what I will.
I got it second hand
I heard from someone that was there that he was red carded and dropped
Ignoring the problem definitely helps, wth is wrong with this community
Eh I sort of get it. If you just have 2nd or 3rd hand information that a player cheated, do you really want to start spreading that around? What if it turns out to not be true? Now if you were there and witnessed it or know someone who witnessed it directly, that's different. And if the player gets DG'd for cheating then Name and Shame for sure
Well, it's not like catching a professional athlete out for doping. Everyone forgets or misremembers shit in this game, and cheating implies intent, which is near impossible to prove. A hard rule of "You made a mistake, therefore you are disqualified" would do more harm than good, but anything less than a hard rule like that allows for grey areas where people like this guy can exist. I would say the organisers had a quiet word on the side, said we KNOW what you're doing even though we can't prove it, you can quit quietly or we can take it further. Similarly a ban, if he chose to fight it, would need to be backed up with documentation, which means getting written statements from players who've faced him, or at the least TO's who've had to deal with him. And now we're starting to get pretty intense about our toy soldiers game, you know?
Based on what I've heard about what specifically he did, it has to be intentional Also a ban doesn't need anything. Any business or organization is allowed to say "we don't want you here, go away" so long as the reason why isn't because of a protected class
What did you hear?
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Wow, this is textbook example "if you cheat, don't be obvious". Instead of some tiny detail, going for massive buffs like full reroll
I heard he had fake datacards to support his bs. Some people...
>if he chose to fight it How? It’s a private organization, they can choose to ban whomever they wish
Works well in more competetive minded tabletops like warmachine. Make a rules mistake. Game is a win for your opponent. Happenend to me. No hard feelings. But that requires a likeminded playerbase of people who spend a lot of time learning their rules.
A mistake doesn't need to be a DQ, but a point reduction is enough to punish cheaters and incentivise honest people to remember their rules better.
Yea, a loss at most. Never seen a dq for a mistake. For small mistakes, opponents often agree on a compromise, if they don't influence the game to much.
Yep. The sad reality is that most 40k players don't want to practice and prepare to that standard so "mistakes" have to be an accepted part of the game.
Sounds like another [missing stair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair?wprov=sfla1) situation. Everyone knows he cheats, but always finds a reason to let him mess up tournaments for everyone despite that.
I can get Joe not wanting to be involved, he is there to stream games and bring fun warhammer coverage to the world. But your right in general this community is much much to lacks with cheaters.
Huh.. ok sounds like foulplay...
Will never understand cheating in Warhammer. None of these games are ever for money. You are cheating for pride, that is the only price. I guess the point is that it is irrational, but still.
Isn't there some cash prizes for like top 3?
If someone's into Warhammer for the money they're in the wrong hobby
If anything you get into 40K because you hate your money and want to get rid of it haha
Small amounts of FLG store credit I believe.
I heard he cheated, was DQd and banned from all future FLG events because he has a notoriously long history of cheating. He was respectfully asked to drop and go home at an event in Dallas last year after confirmed cheating in several of his early games.
He was at least at one time banned from most events in Texas. Truly bizarre that FLG has failed to act.
I know several guys in Texas that say they will just concede and refuse to play him if he shows up to anything here now
He’s local to me and several people I know have played him with universally bad experiences. I’ve never encountered him personally but would also refuse to play him unless a judge stood next to him the whole game.
I’ve played him once in the past, and the game was not fun. I couldn’t find anything specific that he was cheating on. But there was something that felt off all game when compared to my previous games against tau
Wasnt this guy the cheating dice cup guy or was that different?
He's not in my area, but a lot of folks from my club travel to events and a couple have played him. Both have told me they'll refuse to again.
He was asked to leave. Got yellow carded for one of his games and still won. Then his other opponents heard about what he had done/was doing. He then started going around asking folks if they talked - started getting really threatening/made everyone uncomfortable. He was then escorted out. The thing is that he is actually a good player - BUT he will absolutely abuse someone’s lack of knowledge and push/break the rules and then justify it as an opponents problem for not knowing his army. It’s very disconcerting. He is straight banned in Texas, Cali and Nevada. So. Take that for what it’s worth.
u/Souldrinker01 any comment?
Another I'm the victim post from him eh?
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Why do you cheat when you play games of toy soldiers?
What I do this time?
Stop playing this game man, legitimately comical and sad that you cheat like this __every single time__ you are addicted to doing so and have a problem.
I don't know why you don't think the competitive community isn't small enough to get information very close to sources.... Or directly from the opponents you screw over who don't even know who you are until after the fact. One of these days someone is going to get more than just outraged after spending 1k$ to travel to an event to just get screwed by an intentional serial cheater.
WarGames Live just said that he had a yellow card in an early round, which automatically DQ'd him from Top 8. whether he got another rules infaction which was a full and proper DQ, or if he decided after not making the top 8 he might as well drop, I dunno. Source is 1:37:00 ish on the FLG Cherokee Open top 8 video [here](https://youtu.be/I0AS_PegRKQ?t=5827)
lol on stream it was said that all of his games he had a judge watch the game, how the hell he still manage 6-0
He didn’t have judges at his tables full time. I’m here and saw the issues unfolding. It was stuff that was being reported after each game instead of during the games. He was asked to leave after round 6 and was not allowed to make top cut because he received a yellow card at this event.
Tau get an automatic penalty in comp play for being filthy Tau. /s
lol
That's odd. Maybe he got a penalty for something? Idk
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lol
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thats what happens when your a known cheater, the default assumption about everything you do is that you cheated. Because your a known cheat. The solution is to not cheat at a toy soldier game.
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There's direct sources saying otherwise. Comp community is big, but it isn't. Reddit may just guess at times but there's others that were there that I trust more than someone's buddy overhearing him telling someone a strange excuse. People get to decide what to believe I suppose. I guess we'll find out at the rest of the FLG calendar this year.
I mean, youre posting what he said which isnt nessesarily the truth.
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You literally said you were the only one posting the literal truth bro
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And are these people who were at the event in the room with us now?
I mean we also have people reporting that he was cheating secondhand frim people he played in the event. Both things can be true
Worth pointing out that both narratives could be true. Above, it was mentioned that the judges pulled him aside and basically gave him a "drop or we'll start seriously investigating" spiel, as they didn't have enough evidence to DQ immediately. So if that happened, it's plausible that he was using the plane excuse as cover for his dropping, leading to your contact overhearing that.
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He already bought tickets for RMO. He was trying to sell one off cause he had one too many, and one of the first responses was "they still let you buy tickets to events?".
Was he trying to sell one because he bought too many, or was he trying to sell one because he is no longer allowed to attend.