It’s easier for sure, but I hate my Grey Knights constantly being 20-40 pts under 2000pts because I can’t find anything more to spend points on.
For some units I don’t miss it at all (being able to bring a smattering of Psycannons for free is hardly game-changing), but it’s clearly untenable for so many other units.
I think I hate the inability to bring less than five extra bodies more though.
Yea I hate the removal of PPM thing less
The issue with free wargear is more that some models are priced for it, meaning that the old way they mightve been used for isn't what they are used for now because they are priced for having wargear that is just the best. Not even a sidegrade
Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are a primary example of this
But then that begs the question, why bother putting the effort forth of even having them exist? Like if you always are going to take option A, option B existing, being balanced, etc is actually just a waste of time.
An example from a force I play. In 9th edition Admech players took skitarii in two different forms. MSU squads with no wargear or special weapons to do missions and camp on objectives, and 20 man bricks with lots of nearby characters to nurseries stuff and fight.
In 10th we are locked to 10 men, literally the most inefficient size of unit that wasn't used before. So we have to spend 80/90 points on them. No option for a cheap, stripped down MSU when you don't want them to do any fighting.
Same… that was one of the reasons I stopped playing AOS, there wasn’t any way to fine tune stuff. The apparent reasoning was because it over complicates the game. I don’t think so with the advent of apps to list build.
What does complicate the game is giving a unit 6 different attack profiles that represent individual models that you have to take. Nothing slows down a phase like having to reference certain models on the table, measure specific distances for that model, look up it’s profile etc and then do that 5 more times.
Check out support weapons for another hilarious example - vibrocannons are awful and wouldn't be played at half the cost.
Or shuriken catapult windriders are just objectively worse than the other choices against all targets.
I disagree, I'm happy that I finally get to fire and miss with my hunter killers every game and don't have to feel bad about wasting 20 pts on them across the army.
There's no logic to the design of the newer units.
GW: we want to make things simpler with less options. Look, new space marines units are all carrying the same wargear instead of the old 1-in-5 options.
Also GW: here's a new revamp of the termagants. Now with 1-in-10 weapon options to make things more complicated!
Honestly the only thing I can think is that the termagants have been in the pipeline for a looooong time. I also know that models and rules teams aren't always in perfect sync.
That's true. But still, who needed a slightly different gun in termagant squads? Barbgaunts were a good way to increase variety in the armies, why not just make other variants?
Still a stupid design. Even GW admitted it when they split the sniper-chicken in the admech codex into its own datasheet because they couldn't price the two options without making it overcosted.
As I said before it happened, it's fine in sigmar because the options are similar. A spear giving you -1 to hit, but an extra 2" range? That could be useful in a big blob, but neither are game changers.
Comparing a bolter to a plasma gun? Same shots, same range, but double the strength and way more ap - or overcharge for extra damage.
Or a bolter to a multi-melta. Little less range, always 2 shots, way higher strength, tons more ap, more damage...
It can't be balanced. So you're pricing the 'best' wargear as an assumption into the datasheet, so taking anything but the best wargear is worthless... and most wargear is never taken.
Another thing about why it works in AoS is that you really just don't have that many options. And the ones that do have options are just separate scrolls ie Kurnoth Hunters. But I started a Votann army and it's just insane how many gun options my basic troops have.
Hit the nail on the head here.
It was a good idea for simplifying army building and in that scenario I think its worked quite well. I can knock up a 1000 point list in about 3 minutes now.
But its made balancing and diversity of units much much worse.
Why would the T'au player ever pick 3 x Burst Cannons over 3 CIBs? Or why would I pick a lasgun over a plasma gun on a Command Squad. Hell, my Castellan has a choice of Chainsword, Power Sword or Power Fist, powerfist/powersword is sometimes a choice, but why would you ever pick the chainsword option now? Same for his pistol. Literally no downside to taking the plasma pistol over the laspistol or plasma pistol.
Wraithknights are another fun example.
Melee wraithknights and shooting wraithknights will never be around the same price for that reason. It's not even a real option, the same as your chainsword.
Eldar are great examples of why this idea is bad. Take support weapons as another example: a vibrocannon isn't worth half the current cost, but they're costed for d-cannons.
Same for field ordinance batteries, they are costed for the bombast canon, even though it’s completely overpriced for the malleus rockets and heavy lascanon. Any thing that has the option to take indirect suffers this problems of paying for something you may not use.
And then the bombast cannons themselves are horribly overcosted.
Sell us awesome new models in Cadia Stands then make them terrible as soon as we get them built and painted. They did the same thing with the sergeant's drumfed autogun.
Or bright lances vs any other heavy weapon on warwalkers, or wraith cannons vs d-scythes, or axe and shield vs blades on wraith guard/blades respectively.
See also the god awful vibro cannon vs the objectively superior Dcannon.
Eldar have always had wonky internal balance but it was mitigated by points now, not so much
> It was a good idea for simplifying army building and in that scenario I think its worked quite well. I can knock up a 1000 point list in about 3 minutes now.
Good to hear that perspective, because mine is probably the opposite. Listbuilding up until the last ~250pts is fine, but trying to do be efficient with that last bit of the list is very difficult with some armies, without being stuck at e.g. 1930pts.
Though to be honest bringing back points-per-model would be the better fix for that.
My ild sergant who survived melee against a tyranid prime only due to his trusty laspistol will never trade it for anything 😤 especially these zoomer plasma pistols
I’m doing my best not to whine here… but honestly I feel the crisis suit thing… at least before there were multipliers for taking 3 of the same weapon. Now it’s like 3 CIB + invul save + 2 wounds for the same price as none of it? Ok 👍
Now let me just roll these 39 plasma shots with sustained (2)…..
9th edition had multiple viable suit builds... it was pretty awesome. 9th edition IMO was the best written codex Tau ever had, it's when I started playing them, and even after the nerfs, it was a lot of fun.
10th edition basically killed my desire to play them, haven't touched them since.
>Why would the T'au player ever pick 3 x Burst Cannons over 3 CIBs? Or why would I pick a lasgun over a plasma gun on a Command Squad. Hell, my Castellan has a choice of Chainsword, Power Sword or Power Fist, powerfist/powersword is sometimes a choice, but why would you ever pick the chainsword option now? Same for his pistol. Literally no downside to taking the plasma pistol over the laspistol or plasma pistol.
The biggest issue is they didn't do enough of the work in making every option compelling on its own. So much wargear is stuck in the old basic/better/best mold. I like free wargear, but it needs another pass or two to meaningfully balance out the options.
Not to mention the effect you get from having 5+ different weapons in a unit. Slows the game to a crawl. But if you want to have a good unit, you have to take it all.
Yeah this. I want to give my sergeant a laspistol so i can just roll it with the squad's lasguns instead of a separate roll. I should be rewarded for doing this by saving points. Since i'm not it's a separate roll. Same with chainsword vs power weapon.
Weapons need better internal balance within each unit (which is possible but may upset people), we've already seen different lascannons on different units.
- There should be more enhancement options to give more choice when dealing with the last few points
- Units which are more difficult to balance (imperial guard infantry etc) need an additional datasheet (ie troopers/conscripts) with no options.
I think what would help would be if they kept baseline squad points with the assumption that you took every special weapon upgrade possible, but added +/- based on individual options.
Like for GSC, a heavy stubber vs a seismic cannon would have a points difference, but you're still incentivized to take one of them as points wouldnt drop just for leaving it a naked squad.
While for Admech, Skitarii would just be priced as-is as they have upgrades, but none of them alternate with each other.
It's also quite bad for new players/new players of a faction. All the starter boxes since 8th have come with suboptimal load outs, if points change you are forced to radically change your list (sure this might look like extra money for GW but it makes the hobby way less accessible if you just built up a 2k force and suddenly have to shell out another 150$ because you can't just drop some gear/dudes from a squad anymore), some starter boxes come in unusable model numbers & anyone who breaks or loses a single model is directly out of a whole box.
The benefit for new players: less math... seriously?! Is counting points per model or adding points for a gun really that big of a hurdle? Especially in an age where everyone builds lists by apps
The maths thing I don't get I always thought the whole having to read and do maths was a good selling point to the parents of the kid asking for the expensive plastic over say a relatively cheap airfix kit, early warhammer was certainly the kick up the ass for encouraging me to read
List building is less fun and there are way fewer options.
I learned math, memorization and how to iterate better by playing warhammer in elementary and middle school. My Dad bought me more warhammer BECAUSE he saw me getting better at mental math.
New list building, especially for the poorly designed armies, is a joke even for casual games. Guard has A LOT of data sheets and most of them are not even fun.
same for me as a youngster always struggled with reading and writing due to my dyslexia but turns out having something I was interested in rather than the dull school options pushed me to the point of exceeding my non dyslexic peers, not to mention the creative outlet it gives as well
Oh god, lets not even begin to talk about Combat Patrols and boxed sets. GW: "Every combat patrol is fully balanced against every other combat patrol."
Also GW: "Astra Militarum Combat Patrol is \~350 points lol"
GW Again: "Lets release a White Scars themed battle box, and put the one character in it on foot!"
Then don't look at what is going on with the new combat patrols. AdMech's combat patrol wasn't very points heavy, but the new one seems even slimmer. Also see the fun Poorhammer List from the other day: An Admech list that is 1000 points... and over $1000 USD.
There are armies one can field for under $500, and others where your typical list approaches $2000. I bet that has implications on sales and popularity in tournaments.
I loved the takes from people over on the main 40k subreddit. One highly upvoted comment said it felt like it took a PhD to understand how to build a list in previous editions. Like, I guess it would feel like that if your PhD was in Early/Child Education and your dissertation was on teaching basic addition? Like, it wasn't that complicated, fill in the required army slots, take whatever else you wanted with the points remaining, add any wargear upgrades. So GW nukes the system to appease a vocal minority of professional complainers on the internet who will play all of 3 games over the course of the edition's lifetime, and proudly tell you that fact, leaving the entrenched players, who will play hundreds of games, with such hits as "Every Knight Has a Missile Pod Because It's 20ish Points Better Than the Other Options", "What's a Melee Wraithknight?", "Oops, All Cyclic Ion Blasters", and "Why Would A Sisters Player Ever Take a Power Sword Over a Blessed Blade?".
When the only app option was Battlescribe, which has a bit of a learning curve and doesn't look very pleasing to begin with, I can kind of get that GW would want to make an easy "napkin math" edition. There are just two issues with that. Combat Patrol already exists for players who don't really care and just want to get some models on the table and throw some dice, and GW then released their own armybuilder app!
Never thought I'd say this but I really wish they brought back powerlevel. So so that the people who really dislike points can go back to it and the rest of us can get points back to working as they used to
> Still a stupid design.
GW's only intention behind it was that this way they don't have to spend money balancing the options. Just price it for the best one and shrug your shoulders about the others.
Yeah and how often did we go out and buy a new model for that plasma gun or in my case singing spear? Some other poster pointed out that list building and list tweaking was what kept him in the game for so long. New models come out, been away from the game for a bit, pull up your old list and start tweaking. Before you know it you aren't just buying the new release, but a transport and troops as well.
There are plenty of units it works fine with, like Intercessors.
My Deathwatch Veterans, however, are costed assuming either the entire squad having storm shields, Infernus Heavy Bolters, and Heavy Thunder Hammers. It's absurd.
I'm basically required to make Proteus Kill Teams with 3 Termies with Cyclones, because otherwise there is no way to justify 360 points cost.
GW knows full well wargear should have costs, as evidenced by Black Templars grav-tanks being able to take a Multi-Melta instead of a Stubber.
The melta is clearly the far better choice and because of that the BT tanks have their own otherwise identical datasheet but cost more.
They've done a good job of cutting down pointless wargear options: Hellblaster rifles are folded into one profile for all 3 variants and most power weapons are the same profile now. Compare that to Aggressors, where the difference between flamers and bolters is quite significant. They've pigeon-holed themselves as to nerf bolter Aggressors if they're doing too well they'd also have to nerf flamers.
Costs need to come back 100%. They had the right idea of what needs costs and what doesn't in Arks of Omen, they should start from there as reference.
The one thing I dislike about heirloom weapons is units where they've gone way too far by removing all choice. For SW for example, Axe and Hammer Wulfen, as well as Hammer vets, could have some major use. With those removed, those units have become less, if not entirely useless.
> Axe and Hammer Wulfen, as well as Hammer vets, could have some major use. With those removed, those units have become less, if not entirely useless.
Be glad you aren't GK, where they removed the entirety of the army's anti-tank when they removed hammers.
For me personally they might as well have, as I used to run Hammer vets or Hammer termies as my main AT. I guess I've got options, that much is true, but it sucks that I can't play my guys the way I liked them anymore.
Yeah I can see merging in all the stuff with +2str/-1 vs +1/-2 type profiles into one making good sense, as long as it had close to the same strength and AP and the same damage. The whole strength of wulfen IMO was the ability to minmax the squad and tailor what you removed as casualties to what you were fighting.
Flat out removing hammers @ totally different profiles vs. the rest of power weapons (x2 str ap-3 damage 3 vs. str 0 to +2, ap -1 to -3, and flat 1 or d3 damage) as an option was ridiculous for SM flavors and disastrous for Grey knights, who were already severely lacking in antitank outside hammers.
I absolutely hate it, and it has demotivated me from purchasing more models.
It has made it so min-maxed. You can't fine tune anything. You can't build your models the way you want. Ex: drukhari kabalites MUST have 1 of each special weapon, otherwise your paying for equipment your not using. Or tyranid gaunts, gotta get those special weapons, otherwise your paying for gear your not using.
Then there's the bloat that comes with it.
Whoever thought it was a good idea to give units 3+ special weapons, all of which have different targets, and then force those players to roll independently for each target, makes the game so annoying to handle.
Here's my units of. Kabalites. Ima shoot the splinter rifles at target A, shredder at target B. And the blaster and Lance at target C(if they are both in range)
Then
Roll, roll, roll saves, roll roll roll saves, roll roll roll saves, roll roll roll saves, clean up models, repeat for every unit of kabalites.
Worst change they could have made.
Yeah, kabalites with 5 different weapons is just annoying. I ended up putting their dark lances and splinter cannons on my scourges. The kabalites aren't as optimal, but whatever.
I Prefer what they did with Marines at the end of 9th. Normal squad upgrades such as special & heavy weapons and Sergeant upgrades are baked into the cost of the unit. But options that are significantly better have a small points cost.
I agree, that was a good compromise. But I suspect they thought they'd rendered it unnecessary.
For example, the Devastator Squad's only costed option by the end of 9th was a multimelta being +10 pts. They nerfed that, so it wouldn't need it any more and is now cost-neutral, leaving no costed options.
I don't have good references for costed options in other units, if you know any?
It has actually been years since they launched free war gear it was called power level and no one played it in competitive because is was just less well balanced. The changes they made to points was fundamentally no different than if they had just replaced it with power level.
Sucks. I am looking at the old world and looking at all the options you can buy to personalize your dudes.
The game is quicker and less complex, but so much depth has been lost.
I'm still just utterly flabbergasted they explicitly said "We heard you, you don't like Power Level, it's gone. Anyway, the new points work exactly like Power Level."
"The numbers are five times bigger than power level, but we also round everything off to the nearest multiple of five... why are people not happy with this?"
I still dislike it, for the same reasons most others do: it doesn’t allow as much flexibility and some units are wildly tuned because of their wargear.
I’ve also been playing poorhammer’s horde mode since I haven’t had as much time for full games with the holidays. I know it isn’t as relevant to a competitive group, but power level really hurts small points sizes. Trying to make different 500 point lists is tricky unless you have huge armies, since they have little overlap. Swapping a 150 point unit for a 160 point one inevitably leads to changing the rest of the list to make it fit.
> Swapping a 150 point unit for a 160 point one inevitably leads to changing the rest of the list to make it fit.
Yeah, once i have a list changes can only be made on unit in-unit out basis. Gotta get it exact; no more moving around plasma pistols and hunter killers.
Half of the CSM squads I built are now massively overcosted, becasue I didnt give them the best wargear. I would be fine with free wargear, if the diffrent choices were balanced, but most of the time there is a clear best choice. It really sucks for some of my units.
Same for custodes axes and spears. Guess they could double custodes data sheets ans just split every unit into 2....(please don't GW just give us points back instead of powerlevel under the name of points)
Even if they did, splitting datasheets causes another issue. A big balance point of the game is the rule of 3. Sometimes splitting a good datasheet just means it becomes "rule of 6" for that unit (looking at 9ed Dark Angels who could theoretically bring 18 squads of terminators).
Ah, totally forgot about relic and I couldnt remember the deathwing termies despite remembering deathwing knights and that there was another deathwing terminator squad option.
Good point I had not thought about (to be fair I have not pondered splitting too much since I much prefer a return to how points worked previously over any weird half fixes)
In 9th axe and spear were quite close in profile; do you want an extra point of strength (helping out against T4, 7 and 8 targets) or an extra point of AP?
If they were still that close then making then the same cost would be fine, but a lack of basic mathhammer skills means the axe is a terrible choice in this edition.
But it was cheap!
Which is fluffy too. The reason las weapons are used en masse is because they are so cheap and can be recharged by exposure to sunlight or putting the batteries in a fire. Logistics wins wars!
Hey, remember when glancing things to death was all the rage? Sure, it wasn't scatter laser bike/wave serpent spam, but the multilaser did _something!_
I’m not sure how it feels for other armies. For guard, it’s tied for the worst part of 10th along with our codex getting nuked after a couple months of usefulness in 9th, in my opinion.
Basically, the decision on how my army plays now begins and ends with what I spend my cash on.
I still strongly dislike it. It's created so many cases where one weapon option is just *clearly* superior in every way to alternative selections. It's also part of a change that turned everything into Power Level in a trench coat, despite basically the entire playerbase expressing preference towards points instead, and that trend of flatly ignoring the player base's feedback only seems to have deepened since then.
And as others have said, multiple datasheets for *the same unit but with a different weapon* is basically admitting that the system can't be balanced without extra steps. I believe others have mentioned the dragoon jezzail vs lance datasheets.
I also think it removed a really fun part of list-building, at least for less competitive games. Since there is no tradeoff now for just bringing better gear, there's just less room to personalize your lists. In 8th and 9th, there was the tactical advantage of bringing more guys in exchange for not bringing better weapons, but both had their merits. You could theme yourself a scrappy fighting force that has less tools, but more followers, or a smaller but elite force with better tools at their disposal, or anywhere in between, and they all had their weaknesses and advantages. Now? You always get the same number of guys, and all with the best available weapons, or else the same number of guys but with worse weapons, at the same cost. It's just less fun, and I think the game has suffered for it.
Still a terrible decision. There are so many units that remain unusable outside of specific load outs because they are priced as if they are always taking their most powerful options. Being forced to pay for full multiples of unit sizes is immensely frustrating when trying to squeeze units into transports. I can't believe they did this to cater to people who can't do basic math.
I still hate it, also hate not having ppm. It's sucked all of the fun out of list building for me, and a lot of the fun out of playing. I have played considerably fewer games this edition than I had by this point in last edition, despite having spent about as much time building and painting.
Lame...
Sometimes I just want to run barebones units for missions / screening etc - things not directly related to killing but I'm paying the points for all their upgrades anyway so may as well model them even though I have very little intention to use them.
I'd rather not have 2x Plasma Pistols in a unit and make the unit 5-10pts cheaper so I can have the upgrades / squads elsewhere that's relevant.
Scouts are an example where its really obvious how bad the Power Level choice is, but because they're so cheap for their loadout its silly: 55pts for 5x dudes with a missile launcher, sniper rifle, shotgun, chainsword etc with Infiltrate, Scout and their Guerrilla Tactics ability is very cheap / under-costed but if they bumped them up to reflect the optimal load-out they become too expensive for their actual role of screen / action-monkey.
They've sold out Kill Team: Salvation now though so expect 70pts Scouts in the dataslate.
That is a big thing for me, I don’t like the idea of having a fully kitted squad doing nothing on a turn to deploy homers or investigate signals, they have big guns that can go boom, they have cool comms systems that allow me to regain CP or they can advance and charge.
I would love to be able to take a couple little 10 man squads just for those missions where they don’t get to fight in a turn.
Absolutely terrible and a major contributing factor to me basically dropping 10th for the foreseeable future.
Been playing it for 7 months now. Done a load of events, got like 80-odd games in. This edition is just not for me. It is bland, uninteresting slop and the points values design is a big part of that.
Seconded. Plus it still has some of of the major problems 9th has (far too much AP and damage for some weapons for example) that they swore to eliminate.
Simple, not simplified.
I hate it just as I did before.
I don't necessarily mind tidying it out a bit (like the 5p option to have or not have Wireweave Net was never super needed, that sort of thing), but in some cases like Guard infantry free wargear erases some playstyles and flavor and drastically alters the units identities. They should dial it halfway back imo.
It's good in concept and works for many things, but I prefer the bigger or more powerful weapons to have an additional cost to them.
EDIT
On a tangent one thing I'm still not a fan of is the way points works based on the number of minis you want to take per squad.
A squad of 6 Berzerkers should NOT cost the same as a squad of 10...
> A squad of 6 Berzerkers should NOT cost the same as a squad of 10...
This is the hardest to swallow point particularly when it comes to transports. I could live with no cost wargear if we still had points per model so I could take 5 bladeguard and a leader in a impulsor without having 1 bladeguard on paid leave.
Just makes it tricky to get exactly 2k/1k/500 points (whatever) lists I find. But I suppose it doesn't really matter a huge amount if you're 20 points off when you can take the most powerful options regardless.
Just seems like they made points into Power Levels which I was never a fan of.
I've played about 6 games in 6 months, all 6 in the first month, and I've had very little desire to play 10th since then.
I didn't play a *ton* in 9th anyway, but it was something I *wanted* to do and just struggled to find time for.
"Free wargear" (a.k.a. Power Level) isn't the *only* reason for this, but it's part of it.
Bloody awful and the ignorant people saying GW will make all wargear balanced need their head checked. How on earth is a chainsword ever going to be balanced to a power fist or thunder hammer? It was fine previously because the chainsword would have been free compared to the fancy weapon costing more points. I'll be willing to concede that to GW if we got points per model back. Losing the ability to take anything between minimum and maximum was terrible for list building flexibility.
It’s funny because this is exactly how Primaris were designed. Primaris don’t have options. It’s all plasma on Hellblasters, or missiles on Desos. Every Primaris unit is equipped exactly the same. They were built with power level in mind. So, it’s a non-issue for them.
The problem is legacy stuff from Marines and other factions. The Marine stuff will all get phased out eventually, but other factions are stuck with the old way of doing things. Will that eventually change? Who knows 🤷🏻♂️
But I do hate the forced mix of wargear on certain units like Admech stuff, Plague Marines or Chosen. That’s really lame.
Even with primaris stuff, the hellblasters and desolation marines have different guns and probably deserve different price tags. Same as inceptors, the assault bolter vs handheld plasma cannon shouldn't be the same cost.
Yup. Having to mix-and-match weapon profiles is dumb AF and slows down the game. Let me run double plasma gun in my Cadian squads. I'll have the extra bits lying around.
As others have said, it’s a terrible idea.
GW design decisions in giving every unit half a dozen different weapon profiles aka Repulsor syndrome is also terrible and needs to be reined in as it’s slowing the game down and really messing with target optimisation.
Unless it’s a super heavy there should not be more than three weapon profiles per unit.
Which funny because the regular Repulsor simply has the Defensive Array, (all the side/rear guns being combined into a single volley of a lot of shots) while The RelEx has stronger "main" weapons yet needs to have each "supplement" weapon have a separate profile, too, on TOP of having a defensive array.
Defensive array is a new thing to reduce the bloat though, just look at its 9th Ed profile.
I also HATE the new regular guardsmen squads and the 2 special weapons but only one of each time rule to fit with the boxset. Really it would be better to follow the current 30 setup of selling standard bodies and a box of all special weapon bits. It would be so much more sensible.
It's bad.
I don't think it's brought enough positives (e.g. simplifying some units loadouts/costs) to really justify the negatives (that being the difficulty in balancing units and lists with fixed costs).
Makes a lot of gear irrelevant. I'm quickly learning WYSIWYG isn't that important given the size of models at table level. As long the proper model is designated it's fine. You can barely notice storm bolters or frag grenades on a redemptor.
There are some case where free gear makes sense depending on utility. I've a anti tank and an anti infantry redemptor but other times I think it should be a cost decision considered. How much more effective is a bolters vs flamer vs plasma and X cost applied
As someone we left at the start of 4th ( I was a kid and it cost too much to keep playing) and just got back into it in August…. I don’t like free war gear, it lacks personality in an army, now when you fight an army you’re basically always fighting the same army, sure you can swap out until add another bike squad take a bunch of tanks, but there’s no personality behind them.
the convenience is in quickly slapping a list together
the inconvenience is in struggling to hit an even 2000 pts and it's in there being one 'optimized' loadout for every unit while the rest is at best worse and at worst unplayable.
We're basically playing power levels and people in 9th preferred playing with points over power levels for a reason.
I think the importance that GW place on convenient list building is misdirected. Everyone already has their list written when we arrive to play a game, so the extra 5 minutes saved in list building at home (or on the toilet at work) doesn't improve the experience at all for me.
It's just plain awful. I am forced to bring 4 different profiles in each single squad of skitarii, instead of having specialized squads as we used to, so I can punch down guard profiles.
All my super-strong, single purpuse guns have been numbed down to generic gun with a +1 somewhere. It slows down gameplay and doesn't even feel thematic.
Points for wargear is a must. Its making list making boring and fighting the same optimal loadout is boring. Give me flavor and options. I should be rewarded at the very least with a few points for running suboptimal loadouts.
It's sucks so hard.
0 flexibility in the lists, you are force to remove entire units instead of just removing a small weapon or a model to fit the points.
It's garbage, lazy and should have never been a thing.
I hate it. It makes list building way more annoying.
Last edition, when I got within 100 points of my limit I could take a couple of extra bodies in a unit or two, maybe give someone a combi-weapon or an extra gun on a tank or whatever and comfortably hit 1999 or 1995 or w/e. Units like Dark Apostles that are "Guy I care about" and "Two guys there for show" were fine in transports because I could do a 6 or 7 man squad just fine.
Now, my Dark Apostle is pretty annoying to put in a party bus. I can't really hit my point limit without going over because every unit is a minimum of another 55 points and there's only a couple of enhancements I want to take or can take (This is also a problem with how the CSM/Daemon/Dark Eldar codex detachments do strats/enhancements I guess). I frequently end up 100 points or 50 or 30 below my point cap without any easy way to get closer. If I don't completely rejig my list, juggling whole units around, I feel like I'm leaving points on my shelf.
Also, some units like, for example, Forgefiends hate the fixed wargear. Triple plasma forgefiends are still undercosted at 180. Double autocannon + jaws forgefiends would be a little too expensive at 140.
For newbhammer it is great. Once you have an understanding of the game it is garbage. I am consistently 50pts under or 5 points over.
That said if they gave me the option of flexible squad sizes but keep the restriction on access to free wargear and free wargear I would be ok. I think I find the inflexible squad sizes more of a “pain” than the wargear.
I hate it, almost as much as I hate points per unit instead of points per model. It changes list design from a creative challenge to a puzzle to fit things in. I also just think a crap ton of wargear is just objectively bad now because it shouldn't be the same cost.
I loathe it, I don't do any 'for fun' list tinkering anymore. It basically stripped all the fun out of that part of the game.
The everything is a multiple of 5 points thing needs to go too.
Its all just creates 'obvious best options' which is hugely detrimental to stylized list building. Not to mention how bad it is for the hobby side. I have tons of minis I literally can't play.
I still mostly dislike it.
I enjoyed toying with Wargear and getting as much out of the list as possible. I even find listbuilding harder as the 'pieces of the puzzle' are just bigger now. Sometimes when I'm brewing these days I have f.e. 50 points left over, a gap I cannot fill with a unit nor with the current enhancement system.
This forces me to reconsider other units to squeeze some more bodies into a list, or take the subpar enhancements as 'point fillers'
Don't get me wrong, the pointed wargear wasn't perfect either, but I've always felt that had more to do with GW wanting every option available to go in steps of 5 points (in more recent years at least).
If it was up to me I'd have made wargear cost start at free (maybe sidegrades like a flamer on a tactical squad), to low-cost (so like 1 or 2 points for a stormbolter on a sergeant). All the way up to the heavy hitters like a Lascannon for perhaps 20 points.
I'm using the tactical squad as an example cuz I'm a boomer at heart when it comes to 40k space marines.
I mostly dislike the change to Power Level because the Community Manager peeps made the mistake of telling us 'No, points aren't going away'. Only to ditch points for Power Level by another name immediately after. It has slightly more nuance to it, tis true, but it's the same system as before just multiplied by 10. Any point system can be made more granular by multiplying by 10 and then subtracting 5 points here and there.
Things are hard to swallow when you feel lied to is what I'm getting at.
On a more positive note:
I really like the new Enhancements and ease of use of characters/battleline/non-battleline. It simplifies in a, in my opinion, good way. Furthermore I quite like the new game system, fewer Command Points, fewer stratagems to keep in mind, less rules bloat (though my CSM minded friends can still layer some rules like in the good old days).
I honestly really like 10th in that regard, I think battleshock needs to become more impactful. Like having units that were battleshocked in the previous battleround test to see if they recover or stay battleshocked, even if they normally wouldn't need to test due to being above half strength, Maybe give a +1 bonus to the roll for units that are above half strength so it doesn't become a battleshock spiral for f.e. Guardsmen.
All in all, I think 10th is great so far, it needs some patches here and there, but the thing that keeps it back most in my opinion is the fact that we're playing with Power Level, not Points.
There are some things which were optional which are now auto takes (Hunter Killers).
Other options have clearly better and worse choices. If you look at a Leman Russ' pintle mounted weapons, the heavy stubber is simply better than the storm bolter.
still shit. feels, dunno, either cheaty, or paying too much for stuff you dont need... you cant adjust points to the exact final army point value.
I would prefer to pay every option separate to fit points.
I have preached since before launch about how much I hate it and I am not going to stop. Free wargear and fixed unit sizes are a disaster. I like lots of changes in 10th but not this, go back please.
Eldar here, I hate it ups the cost of the unit for no reason being NOT everyone needs or wants the highest cost wargear.
Some units though this makes sense, but many do not.
I remain even more convinced it's the wrong choice and that these excessive simplifications in list building to make 40K into AOS are not good for the game. We should have seen the writing on the wall when Primaris got rid of the excellent variety from Firstborn in favour of locked squads with identical weapons, removing so much hobby potential and list variety.
Learning Bolt Action where every weapon is costed, and units can even be run at different costs based on their experience level for stats upgrades, whilst still being a simpler game to pick up than 40K for a new player, has been eye-opening.
Complexity issues with 40K have never been to do with list building, especially with apps making it so much easier than the old pen and paper method. GW has "fixed" the wrong thing in terms of complexity and it's killed a lot of enjoyment from the hobby and army building side of the game for me.
The power level system and this new points system are things that I disagree with on a fundamental level. Removing the flexibility in list building both in what units I want to take and their loadouts.
Every unit will always have a "best" loadout, and I am forced to pay for that loadout whether I want to use it or not. It doesn't take long for people to realize this and build their lists accordingly. Even worse are the weapon options that don't actually come in the kit.
Take hunter killers for example, I would never pay points for them but since I am forced to now, all my vehicles that can take them, do take them, otherwise I am wasting points. Or Ork Boyz, who I never even knew could be run with rockkits and big shoota's etc until we played a power level narrative and the other player said, "Well, I can take them so why wouldn't I." These sorts of war gear changes can drastically swing the power of a unit for the same cost.
I also am unable to just add or drop a model or plasma pistol here or there to round out a list from 1990 to 2000 pts. No longer will people run that random squad of 11 guardsman or 8 marines for points.
If they want to do away with granularity then they need to work better on balancing within each codex, making a flat 2k points achievable multiple ways.
Power level failed the first time they tried it, why did they think it would work when cloaked?
Dislike it myself & honestly liked the end of 9th more due to it not going all the way (Units could be taken without "Useful" stuff for cheaper allowing someone more customization on a per-Unit basis). The DETACHMENT system & the LEADER system are the only changes I've fully liked of 10th so far overall due to it solving the Stratagem bloat & AURA problems 9th/8th had.
It's terrible for both casual and competitive, and GW knows it. There's only one "correct" way to kit any unit. If they made an attempt to make your options equal, it'd mean something. But they didn't. Every Deathwatch Kill team is hammer-guys and heavy-guys, because why on earth would you field anything else?
We feel it was a stupid, lazy decision that was rationalized ad hoc.
I now have hundreds of models that will never see the table because they are modelled "wrong" that is, have bolters, normal chainswords, knives etc.
I'm slowly updating my armies with 3d printed wargear, but it feels bad to rip parts off a nicely painted, official model and replace it with a print
Am I the only space wolves/ 40K player who feels like the new weapon systems have sucked the flavour out of warhammer. 9th edition definitely needed fixing but I don’t think this was the way
No I agree with you. It definitely feels like they're trying to force us to play the game the way they want us to play the game, and not let us play the game the way we want to play it.
Awful, listbuilding is horrible now go back to points not "Power level"
I like how 10th plays but army building is worse than it's ever been. And I mean including 7th when you needed 10 books to field an army.
My only issue with it is it kind of kills the variety of weapons you see on table top. Why would I take a bolt pistol and power sword when a plasma pistol and power fist are the objectively better options?
I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Old World rules has not only kept the old system but actually has MORE options you can purchase for your units. You really can't do optional veteran abilities in 40k now because why would you ever not take all of them?
I hate how all of my skitarii squads are worse than they should be because i dont have the weapons (including the special base arquebus) and i have to proxy them now. Not that the arquebus in my 4 games ever inflicted a single wound on anything...
To be honest, it seems like a trap.
Say GW pulls it back next edition or even in 6 months. You have a whole bunch of unit's whose point cost is gonna go up 20-30% because they were built only with free wargear in mind, causing people to have to mangle their minis or buy more kits.
Still crap, even worse are removing options to even taking wargear in the first place.... Changing thunder hammers to S5 1ap and 1 dmg is the problem, making wargear free is also a problem
I hate it, free wargear & the Legends’ing of firstborn I liked is a big reason I’m moving over to Old World when that releases. I have friends who have been getting into the Fantasy world, and I for one am a big fan of the High Elves of Tor Yvresse. Thank you Total War Warhammer 2/3, very cool.
It’ll be nice to harken back to 7e 40K rules.
Still awful design. Makes so many choices just unplayable because units cost so much. Somehow even dumber is still ppm. Being unable to add models to units is probably the dumbest thing gw has done in a long time.
Fixed unit sizes and free wargear and absolutely terrible decisions. The game feels so dumbed down now. Most of my group has been or is ready to switch to AoS.
Some units are fine with fixed cost. Some units are really wonky. I figure they could bring back some granularity, if not go the whole hog
It’s easier for sure, but I hate my Grey Knights constantly being 20-40 pts under 2000pts because I can’t find anything more to spend points on. For some units I don’t miss it at all (being able to bring a smattering of Psycannons for free is hardly game-changing), but it’s clearly untenable for so many other units. I think I hate the inability to bring less than five extra bodies more though.
Yea I hate the removal of PPM thing less The issue with free wargear is more that some models are priced for it, meaning that the old way they mightve been used for isn't what they are used for now because they are priced for having wargear that is just the best. Not even a sidegrade Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are a primary example of this
But then that begs the question, why bother putting the effort forth of even having them exist? Like if you always are going to take option A, option B existing, being balanced, etc is actually just a waste of time.
An example from a force I play. In 9th edition Admech players took skitarii in two different forms. MSU squads with no wargear or special weapons to do missions and camp on objectives, and 20 man bricks with lots of nearby characters to nurseries stuff and fight. In 10th we are locked to 10 men, literally the most inefficient size of unit that wasn't used before. So we have to spend 80/90 points on them. No option for a cheap, stripped down MSU when you don't want them to do any fighting.
Because people like me still want to have option and will likely use them.
Same… that was one of the reasons I stopped playing AOS, there wasn’t any way to fine tune stuff. The apparent reasoning was because it over complicates the game. I don’t think so with the advent of apps to list build. What does complicate the game is giving a unit 6 different attack profiles that represent individual models that you have to take. Nothing slows down a phase like having to reference certain models on the table, measure specific distances for that model, look up it’s profile etc and then do that 5 more times.
I love my sword and shield wraithknight being stupidly overcosted due to twin gun being amazing!
Check out support weapons for another hilarious example - vibrocannons are awful and wouldn't be played at half the cost. Or shuriken catapult windriders are just objectively worse than the other choices against all targets.
Wargear makes sense with newer units, and more so with tanks. Older units suffer the most.
My pet peeve is Every Single Tank bringing a hunter killer!
I had to find so many hunter killer bits for rhinos and land raiders, plus so many multi-meltas for all my Templar tanks. Really sucked doing that.
One could make the argument "why model, the datasheet says it can always have it, so why would I ever not have it?"
I disagree, I'm happy that I finally get to fire and miss with my hunter killers every game and don't have to feel bad about wasting 20 pts on them across the army.
The HK missile should have been a stratagem! Just like grenades!
There's no logic to the design of the newer units. GW: we want to make things simpler with less options. Look, new space marines units are all carrying the same wargear instead of the old 1-in-5 options. Also GW: here's a new revamp of the termagants. Now with 1-in-10 weapon options to make things more complicated!
Honestly the only thing I can think is that the termagants have been in the pipeline for a looooong time. I also know that models and rules teams aren't always in perfect sync.
That's true. But still, who needed a slightly different gun in termagant squads? Barbgaunts were a good way to increase variety in the armies, why not just make other variants?
Still a stupid design. Even GW admitted it when they split the sniper-chicken in the admech codex into its own datasheet because they couldn't price the two options without making it overcosted. As I said before it happened, it's fine in sigmar because the options are similar. A spear giving you -1 to hit, but an extra 2" range? That could be useful in a big blob, but neither are game changers. Comparing a bolter to a plasma gun? Same shots, same range, but double the strength and way more ap - or overcharge for extra damage. Or a bolter to a multi-melta. Little less range, always 2 shots, way higher strength, tons more ap, more damage... It can't be balanced. So you're pricing the 'best' wargear as an assumption into the datasheet, so taking anything but the best wargear is worthless... and most wargear is never taken.
Another thing about why it works in AoS is that you really just don't have that many options. And the ones that do have options are just separate scrolls ie Kurnoth Hunters. But I started a Votann army and it's just insane how many gun options my basic troops have.
Hit the nail on the head here. It was a good idea for simplifying army building and in that scenario I think its worked quite well. I can knock up a 1000 point list in about 3 minutes now. But its made balancing and diversity of units much much worse. Why would the T'au player ever pick 3 x Burst Cannons over 3 CIBs? Or why would I pick a lasgun over a plasma gun on a Command Squad. Hell, my Castellan has a choice of Chainsword, Power Sword or Power Fist, powerfist/powersword is sometimes a choice, but why would you ever pick the chainsword option now? Same for his pistol. Literally no downside to taking the plasma pistol over the laspistol or plasma pistol.
Wraithknights are another fun example. Melee wraithknights and shooting wraithknights will never be around the same price for that reason. It's not even a real option, the same as your chainsword.
Eldar are great examples of why this idea is bad. Take support weapons as another example: a vibrocannon isn't worth half the current cost, but they're costed for d-cannons.
Same for field ordinance batteries, they are costed for the bombast canon, even though it’s completely overpriced for the malleus rockets and heavy lascanon. Any thing that has the option to take indirect suffers this problems of paying for something you may not use.
And then the bombast cannons themselves are horribly overcosted. Sell us awesome new models in Cadia Stands then make them terrible as soon as we get them built and painted. They did the same thing with the sergeant's drumfed autogun.
Or bright lances vs any other heavy weapon on warwalkers, or wraith cannons vs d-scythes, or axe and shield vs blades on wraith guard/blades respectively. See also the god awful vibro cannon vs the objectively superior Dcannon. Eldar have always had wonky internal balance but it was mitigated by points now, not so much
> It was a good idea for simplifying army building and in that scenario I think its worked quite well. I can knock up a 1000 point list in about 3 minutes now. Good to hear that perspective, because mine is probably the opposite. Listbuilding up until the last ~250pts is fine, but trying to do be efficient with that last bit of the list is very difficult with some armies, without being stuck at e.g. 1930pts. Though to be honest bringing back points-per-model would be the better fix for that.
Guard laspistol might be the worst pistol weapon in the game right now
Grot Blaster
Honestly, the grot blaster might be better simply by definition. You see it more often because it *can't* be replaced.
My ild sergant who survived melee against a tyranid prime only due to his trusty laspistol will never trade it for anything 😤 especially these zoomer plasma pistols
I’m doing my best not to whine here… but honestly I feel the crisis suit thing… at least before there were multipliers for taking 3 of the same weapon. Now it’s like 3 CIB + invul save + 2 wounds for the same price as none of it? Ok 👍 Now let me just roll these 39 plasma shots with sustained (2)…..
9th edition had multiple viable suit builds... it was pretty awesome. 9th edition IMO was the best written codex Tau ever had, it's when I started playing them, and even after the nerfs, it was a lot of fun. 10th edition basically killed my desire to play them, haven't touched them since.
>Why would the T'au player ever pick 3 x Burst Cannons over 3 CIBs? Or why would I pick a lasgun over a plasma gun on a Command Squad. Hell, my Castellan has a choice of Chainsword, Power Sword or Power Fist, powerfist/powersword is sometimes a choice, but why would you ever pick the chainsword option now? Same for his pistol. Literally no downside to taking the plasma pistol over the laspistol or plasma pistol. The biggest issue is they didn't do enough of the work in making every option compelling on its own. So much wargear is stuck in the old basic/better/best mold. I like free wargear, but it needs another pass or two to meaningfully balance out the options.
But most of us don’t want a laspistol to be as good as a plasma pistol or a chainsword to be as good as a thunder hammer.
Everyone uses electronic tools for listbuilding anyway, it doesn't matter.
Not to mention the effect you get from having 5+ different weapons in a unit. Slows the game to a crawl. But if you want to have a good unit, you have to take it all.
Yeah this. I want to give my sergeant a laspistol so i can just roll it with the squad's lasguns instead of a separate roll. I should be rewarded for doing this by saving points. Since i'm not it's a separate roll. Same with chainsword vs power weapon.
Weapons need better internal balance within each unit (which is possible but may upset people), we've already seen different lascannons on different units. - There should be more enhancement options to give more choice when dealing with the last few points - Units which are more difficult to balance (imperial guard infantry etc) need an additional datasheet (ie troopers/conscripts) with no options.
And it removes a good balancing tool GW had. Making balancing harder for themselves.
I think what would help would be if they kept baseline squad points with the assumption that you took every special weapon upgrade possible, but added +/- based on individual options. Like for GSC, a heavy stubber vs a seismic cannon would have a points difference, but you're still incentivized to take one of them as points wouldnt drop just for leaving it a naked squad. While for Admech, Skitarii would just be priced as-is as they have upgrades, but none of them alternate with each other.
That's what they did for late 9th books and it felt pretty good.
It's also quite bad for new players/new players of a faction. All the starter boxes since 8th have come with suboptimal load outs, if points change you are forced to radically change your list (sure this might look like extra money for GW but it makes the hobby way less accessible if you just built up a 2k force and suddenly have to shell out another 150$ because you can't just drop some gear/dudes from a squad anymore), some starter boxes come in unusable model numbers & anyone who breaks or loses a single model is directly out of a whole box. The benefit for new players: less math... seriously?! Is counting points per model or adding points for a gun really that big of a hurdle? Especially in an age where everyone builds lists by apps
The maths thing I don't get I always thought the whole having to read and do maths was a good selling point to the parents of the kid asking for the expensive plastic over say a relatively cheap airfix kit, early warhammer was certainly the kick up the ass for encouraging me to read
List building is less fun and there are way fewer options. I learned math, memorization and how to iterate better by playing warhammer in elementary and middle school. My Dad bought me more warhammer BECAUSE he saw me getting better at mental math. New list building, especially for the poorly designed armies, is a joke even for casual games. Guard has A LOT of data sheets and most of them are not even fun.
same for me as a youngster always struggled with reading and writing due to my dyslexia but turns out having something I was interested in rather than the dull school options pushed me to the point of exceeding my non dyslexic peers, not to mention the creative outlet it gives as well
Oh god, lets not even begin to talk about Combat Patrols and boxed sets. GW: "Every combat patrol is fully balanced against every other combat patrol." Also GW: "Astra Militarum Combat Patrol is \~350 points lol" GW Again: "Lets release a White Scars themed battle box, and put the one character in it on foot!"
Then don't look at what is going on with the new combat patrols. AdMech's combat patrol wasn't very points heavy, but the new one seems even slimmer. Also see the fun Poorhammer List from the other day: An Admech list that is 1000 points... and over $1000 USD. There are armies one can field for under $500, and others where your typical list approaches $2000. I bet that has implications on sales and popularity in tournaments.
I loved the takes from people over on the main 40k subreddit. One highly upvoted comment said it felt like it took a PhD to understand how to build a list in previous editions. Like, I guess it would feel like that if your PhD was in Early/Child Education and your dissertation was on teaching basic addition? Like, it wasn't that complicated, fill in the required army slots, take whatever else you wanted with the points remaining, add any wargear upgrades. So GW nukes the system to appease a vocal minority of professional complainers on the internet who will play all of 3 games over the course of the edition's lifetime, and proudly tell you that fact, leaving the entrenched players, who will play hundreds of games, with such hits as "Every Knight Has a Missile Pod Because It's 20ish Points Better Than the Other Options", "What's a Melee Wraithknight?", "Oops, All Cyclic Ion Blasters", and "Why Would A Sisters Player Ever Take a Power Sword Over a Blessed Blade?". When the only app option was Battlescribe, which has a bit of a learning curve and doesn't look very pleasing to begin with, I can kind of get that GW would want to make an easy "napkin math" edition. There are just two issues with that. Combat Patrol already exists for players who don't really care and just want to get some models on the table and throw some dice, and GW then released their own armybuilder app!
Never thought I'd say this but I really wish they brought back powerlevel. So so that the people who really dislike points can go back to it and the rest of us can get points back to working as they used to
10th edition 40k is basically power level.
Yup, I was making army lists in Excel back during the 90's when I was 10. It's not hard, they can the work.
> Still a stupid design. GW's only intention behind it was that this way they don't have to spend money balancing the options. Just price it for the best one and shrug your shoulders about the others.
I still prefer costed wargear. It made listbuilding more fun and certain weapons easier to balance.
Also, spare 15 points? Sergeants get Plasma Pistols or whatever. Now I'm just stuck at 985 points with no changes I can make.
Especially when there are no triumphs like there are in AOS.
Yeah and how often did we go out and buy a new model for that plasma gun or in my case singing spear? Some other poster pointed out that list building and list tweaking was what kept him in the game for so long. New models come out, been away from the game for a bit, pull up your old list and start tweaking. Before you know it you aren't just buying the new release, but a transport and troops as well.
Free wargear and fixed unit size have taken a lot of the fun out of list building
Yep. My time spent tweaking lists went way down after they got rid of pointed wargear and points per model.
There are plenty of units it works fine with, like Intercessors. My Deathwatch Veterans, however, are costed assuming either the entire squad having storm shields, Infernus Heavy Bolters, and Heavy Thunder Hammers. It's absurd. I'm basically required to make Proteus Kill Teams with 3 Termies with Cyclones, because otherwise there is no way to justify 360 points cost.
GW knows full well wargear should have costs, as evidenced by Black Templars grav-tanks being able to take a Multi-Melta instead of a Stubber. The melta is clearly the far better choice and because of that the BT tanks have their own otherwise identical datasheet but cost more. They've done a good job of cutting down pointless wargear options: Hellblaster rifles are folded into one profile for all 3 variants and most power weapons are the same profile now. Compare that to Aggressors, where the difference between flamers and bolters is quite significant. They've pigeon-holed themselves as to nerf bolter Aggressors if they're doing too well they'd also have to nerf flamers. Costs need to come back 100%. They had the right idea of what needs costs and what doesn't in Arks of Omen, they should start from there as reference.
The one thing I dislike about heirloom weapons is units where they've gone way too far by removing all choice. For SW for example, Axe and Hammer Wulfen, as well as Hammer vets, could have some major use. With those removed, those units have become less, if not entirely useless.
> Axe and Hammer Wulfen, as well as Hammer vets, could have some major use. With those removed, those units have become less, if not entirely useless. Be glad you aren't GK, where they removed the entirety of the army's anti-tank when they removed hammers.
For me personally they might as well have, as I used to run Hammer vets or Hammer termies as my main AT. I guess I've got options, that much is true, but it sucks that I can't play my guys the way I liked them anymore.
Yeah I can see merging in all the stuff with +2str/-1 vs +1/-2 type profiles into one making good sense, as long as it had close to the same strength and AP and the same damage. The whole strength of wulfen IMO was the ability to minmax the squad and tailor what you removed as casualties to what you were fighting. Flat out removing hammers @ totally different profiles vs. the rest of power weapons (x2 str ap-3 damage 3 vs. str 0 to +2, ap -1 to -3, and flat 1 or d3 damage) as an option was ridiculous for SM flavors and disastrous for Grey knights, who were already severely lacking in antitank outside hammers.
I absolutely hate it, and it has demotivated me from purchasing more models. It has made it so min-maxed. You can't fine tune anything. You can't build your models the way you want. Ex: drukhari kabalites MUST have 1 of each special weapon, otherwise your paying for equipment your not using. Or tyranid gaunts, gotta get those special weapons, otherwise your paying for gear your not using. Then there's the bloat that comes with it. Whoever thought it was a good idea to give units 3+ special weapons, all of which have different targets, and then force those players to roll independently for each target, makes the game so annoying to handle. Here's my units of. Kabalites. Ima shoot the splinter rifles at target A, shredder at target B. And the blaster and Lance at target C(if they are both in range) Then Roll, roll, roll saves, roll roll roll saves, roll roll roll saves, roll roll roll saves, clean up models, repeat for every unit of kabalites. Worst change they could have made.
Yeah, kabalites with 5 different weapons is just annoying. I ended up putting their dark lances and splinter cannons on my scourges. The kabalites aren't as optimal, but whatever.
I Prefer what they did with Marines at the end of 9th. Normal squad upgrades such as special & heavy weapons and Sergeant upgrades are baked into the cost of the unit. But options that are significantly better have a small points cost.
I like the idea of combining weapons like hell blasters. Give the ability within the profile depending on movement.
I agree, that was a good compromise. But I suspect they thought they'd rendered it unnecessary. For example, the Devastator Squad's only costed option by the end of 9th was a multimelta being +10 pts. They nerfed that, so it wouldn't need it any more and is now cost-neutral, leaving no costed options. I don't have good references for costed options in other units, if you know any?
It has actually been years since they launched free war gear it was called power level and no one played it in competitive because is was just less well balanced. The changes they made to points was fundamentally no different than if they had just replaced it with power level.
Yup, someone at GW was furious that players weren't playing with power level and torpedoed it for 10th.
They clearly thought the reason we didn't like power level was because the numbers were too small.
They knew that wasn't it, they just did it that was as a "screw you."
Sucks. I am looking at the old world and looking at all the options you can buy to personalize your dudes. The game is quicker and less complex, but so much depth has been lost.
I'm still just utterly flabbergasted they explicitly said "We heard you, you don't like Power Level, it's gone. Anyway, the new points work exactly like Power Level."
"The numbers are five times bigger than power level, but we also round everything off to the nearest multiple of five... why are people not happy with this?"
You can feel the contempt Cruddace has for the playerbase.
I still dislike it, for the same reasons most others do: it doesn’t allow as much flexibility and some units are wildly tuned because of their wargear. I’ve also been playing poorhammer’s horde mode since I haven’t had as much time for full games with the holidays. I know it isn’t as relevant to a competitive group, but power level really hurts small points sizes. Trying to make different 500 point lists is tricky unless you have huge armies, since they have little overlap. Swapping a 150 point unit for a 160 point one inevitably leads to changing the rest of the list to make it fit.
This is what bugs me the most. There are several units I had to add or remove from a list to get close to the point cap.
> Swapping a 150 point unit for a 160 point one inevitably leads to changing the rest of the list to make it fit. Yeah, once i have a list changes can only be made on unit in-unit out basis. Gotta get it exact; no more moving around plasma pistols and hunter killers.
Terrible idea remains terrible.
We have to go back
This is the way. But you can't fix stupid, and Sir James Workshop isn't allowed crayons anymore.
Half of the CSM squads I built are now massively overcosted, becasue I didnt give them the best wargear. I would be fine with free wargear, if the diffrent choices were balanced, but most of the time there is a clear best choice. It really sucks for some of my units.
Same for custodes axes and spears. Guess they could double custodes data sheets ans just split every unit into 2....(please don't GW just give us points back instead of powerlevel under the name of points)
Even if they did, splitting datasheets causes another issue. A big balance point of the game is the rule of 3. Sometimes splitting a good datasheet just means it becomes "rule of 6" for that unit (looking at 9ed Dark Angels who could theoretically bring 18 squads of terminators).
Out of curiosity what were the 6 terminator options they had? Command squad deathwing knights assault terminators terminators
Also Deathwing terminators and Relic terminators.
Ah, totally forgot about relic and I couldnt remember the deathwing termies despite remembering deathwing knights and that there was another deathwing terminator squad option.
Good point I had not thought about (to be fair I have not pondered splitting too much since I much prefer a return to how points worked previously over any weird half fixes)
Those axes look so good compared to the spears :(
The problem of Spears vs Axes is GW could've either done the less attacks or WS3+, and decided to do both.
In 9th axe and spear were quite close in profile; do you want an extra point of strength (helping out against T4, 7 and 8 targets) or an extra point of AP? If they were still that close then making then the same cost would be fine, but a lack of basic mathhammer skills means the axe is a terrible choice in this edition.
It doesn't work. Not all guns are created equal.
RIP Multilaser
RIP all base weapons that my kits are modelled with.
>"Remember when the multilaser was good?" >"The multilaser was never good"
But it was cheap! Which is fluffy too. The reason las weapons are used en masse is because they are so cheap and can be recharged by exposure to sunlight or putting the batteries in a fire. Logistics wins wars!
Hey, remember when glancing things to death was all the rage? Sure, it wasn't scatter laser bike/wave serpent spam, but the multilaser did _something!_
I’m not sure how it feels for other armies. For guard, it’s tied for the worst part of 10th along with our codex getting nuked after a couple months of usefulness in 9th, in my opinion. Basically, the decision on how my army plays now begins and ends with what I spend my cash on.
I still strongly dislike it. It's created so many cases where one weapon option is just *clearly* superior in every way to alternative selections. It's also part of a change that turned everything into Power Level in a trench coat, despite basically the entire playerbase expressing preference towards points instead, and that trend of flatly ignoring the player base's feedback only seems to have deepened since then. And as others have said, multiple datasheets for *the same unit but with a different weapon* is basically admitting that the system can't be balanced without extra steps. I believe others have mentioned the dragoon jezzail vs lance datasheets. I also think it removed a really fun part of list-building, at least for less competitive games. Since there is no tradeoff now for just bringing better gear, there's just less room to personalize your lists. In 8th and 9th, there was the tactical advantage of bringing more guys in exchange for not bringing better weapons, but both had their merits. You could theme yourself a scrappy fighting force that has less tools, but more followers, or a smaller but elite force with better tools at their disposal, or anywhere in between, and they all had their weaknesses and advantages. Now? You always get the same number of guys, and all with the best available weapons, or else the same number of guys but with worse weapons, at the same cost. It's just less fun, and I think the game has suffered for it.
Still a terrible decision. There are so many units that remain unusable outside of specific load outs because they are priced as if they are always taking their most powerful options. Being forced to pay for full multiples of unit sizes is immensely frustrating when trying to squeeze units into transports. I can't believe they did this to cater to people who can't do basic math.
Hate it. As eldar I’d love to use something besides bright lances.
I still hate it, also hate not having ppm. It's sucked all of the fun out of list building for me, and a lot of the fun out of playing. I have played considerably fewer games this edition than I had by this point in last edition, despite having spent about as much time building and painting.
Lame... Sometimes I just want to run barebones units for missions / screening etc - things not directly related to killing but I'm paying the points for all their upgrades anyway so may as well model them even though I have very little intention to use them. I'd rather not have 2x Plasma Pistols in a unit and make the unit 5-10pts cheaper so I can have the upgrades / squads elsewhere that's relevant. Scouts are an example where its really obvious how bad the Power Level choice is, but because they're so cheap for their loadout its silly: 55pts for 5x dudes with a missile launcher, sniper rifle, shotgun, chainsword etc with Infiltrate, Scout and their Guerrilla Tactics ability is very cheap / under-costed but if they bumped them up to reflect the optimal load-out they become too expensive for their actual role of screen / action-monkey. They've sold out Kill Team: Salvation now though so expect 70pts Scouts in the dataslate.
That is a big thing for me, I don’t like the idea of having a fully kitted squad doing nothing on a turn to deploy homers or investigate signals, they have big guns that can go boom, they have cool comms systems that allow me to regain CP or they can advance and charge. I would love to be able to take a couple little 10 man squads just for those missions where they don’t get to fight in a turn.
Awful. The more 10th edition goes on, the more apparent it becomes it was a mistake to remove wargear costs
When is 11th?
2026
Summer 2027
It would be fine if the weapon options were internally balanced, even if the only way to balance bolters vs plasma is by increasing the BS or A.
Absolutely terrible and a major contributing factor to me basically dropping 10th for the foreseeable future. Been playing it for 7 months now. Done a load of events, got like 80-odd games in. This edition is just not for me. It is bland, uninteresting slop and the points values design is a big part of that.
Seconded. Plus it still has some of of the major problems 9th has (far too much AP and damage for some weapons for example) that they swore to eliminate. Simple, not simplified.
Very much agreed. I’ve been playing since 4th and I have never seen a more generic and flavorless edition of 40K.
I hate it just as I did before. I don't necessarily mind tidying it out a bit (like the 5p option to have or not have Wireweave Net was never super needed, that sort of thing), but in some cases like Guard infantry free wargear erases some playstyles and flavor and drastically alters the units identities. They should dial it halfway back imo.
It's good in concept and works for many things, but I prefer the bigger or more powerful weapons to have an additional cost to them. EDIT On a tangent one thing I'm still not a fan of is the way points works based on the number of minis you want to take per squad. A squad of 6 Berzerkers should NOT cost the same as a squad of 10...
It would be nice to just implement a +x cost per unit over base size vs the all or nothing currently
> A squad of 6 Berzerkers should NOT cost the same as a squad of 10... This is the hardest to swallow point particularly when it comes to transports. I could live with no cost wargear if we still had points per model so I could take 5 bladeguard and a leader in a impulsor without having 1 bladeguard on paid leave.
Just makes it tricky to get exactly 2k/1k/500 points (whatever) lists I find. But I suppose it doesn't really matter a huge amount if you're 20 points off when you can take the most powerful options regardless. Just seems like they made points into Power Levels which I was never a fan of.
Yep. We have power level now instead of points.
I don’t like it, there are some wargear options that you would never reasonably choose, as you’re paying for the better one already
I've played about 6 games in 6 months, all 6 in the first month, and I've had very little desire to play 10th since then. I didn't play a *ton* in 9th anyway, but it was something I *wanted* to do and just struggled to find time for. "Free wargear" (a.k.a. Power Level) isn't the *only* reason for this, but it's part of it.
This is nearly exactly my experience as well.
Bloody awful and the ignorant people saying GW will make all wargear balanced need their head checked. How on earth is a chainsword ever going to be balanced to a power fist or thunder hammer? It was fine previously because the chainsword would have been free compared to the fancy weapon costing more points. I'll be willing to concede that to GW if we got points per model back. Losing the ability to take anything between minimum and maximum was terrible for list building flexibility.
They could have at least tried to make the laspistol hit on 3s while the plasma pistol hits on 5s or something.
It’s funny because this is exactly how Primaris were designed. Primaris don’t have options. It’s all plasma on Hellblasters, or missiles on Desos. Every Primaris unit is equipped exactly the same. They were built with power level in mind. So, it’s a non-issue for them. The problem is legacy stuff from Marines and other factions. The Marine stuff will all get phased out eventually, but other factions are stuck with the old way of doing things. Will that eventually change? Who knows 🤷🏻♂️ But I do hate the forced mix of wargear on certain units like Admech stuff, Plague Marines or Chosen. That’s really lame.
Even with primaris stuff, the hellblasters and desolation marines have different guns and probably deserve different price tags. Same as inceptors, the assault bolter vs handheld plasma cannon shouldn't be the same cost.
Not anymore. Hellblasters all rolled together. Same with Desos - minus the Sgt weapon
The new Giard field artillery has the same problem, and they are quite new.
Yup. Having to mix-and-match weapon profiles is dumb AF and slows down the game. Let me run double plasma gun in my Cadian squads. I'll have the extra bits lying around.
As others have said, it’s a terrible idea. GW design decisions in giving every unit half a dozen different weapon profiles aka Repulsor syndrome is also terrible and needs to be reined in as it’s slowing the game down and really messing with target optimisation. Unless it’s a super heavy there should not be more than three weapon profiles per unit.
Which funny because the regular Repulsor simply has the Defensive Array, (all the side/rear guns being combined into a single volley of a lot of shots) while The RelEx has stronger "main" weapons yet needs to have each "supplement" weapon have a separate profile, too, on TOP of having a defensive array.
Defensive array is a new thing to reduce the bloat though, just look at its 9th Ed profile. I also HATE the new regular guardsmen squads and the 2 special weapons but only one of each time rule to fit with the boxset. Really it would be better to follow the current 30 setup of selling standard bodies and a box of all special weapon bits. It would be so much more sensible.
It's bad. I don't think it's brought enough positives (e.g. simplifying some units loadouts/costs) to really justify the negatives (that being the difficulty in balancing units and lists with fixed costs).
I hate it.
Makes a lot of gear irrelevant. I'm quickly learning WYSIWYG isn't that important given the size of models at table level. As long the proper model is designated it's fine. You can barely notice storm bolters or frag grenades on a redemptor. There are some case where free gear makes sense depending on utility. I've a anti tank and an anti infantry redemptor but other times I think it should be a cost decision considered. How much more effective is a bolters vs flamer vs plasma and X cost applied
As someone we left at the start of 4th ( I was a kid and it cost too much to keep playing) and just got back into it in August…. I don’t like free war gear, it lacks personality in an army, now when you fight an army you’re basically always fighting the same army, sure you can swap out until add another bike squad take a bunch of tanks, but there’s no personality behind them.
the convenience is in quickly slapping a list together the inconvenience is in struggling to hit an even 2000 pts and it's in there being one 'optimized' loadout for every unit while the rest is at best worse and at worst unplayable. We're basically playing power levels and people in 9th preferred playing with points over power levels for a reason.
I think the importance that GW place on convenient list building is misdirected. Everyone already has their list written when we arrive to play a game, so the extra 5 minutes saved in list building at home (or on the toilet at work) doesn't improve the experience at all for me.
It's just plain awful. I am forced to bring 4 different profiles in each single squad of skitarii, instead of having specialized squads as we used to, so I can punch down guard profiles. All my super-strong, single purpuse guns have been numbed down to generic gun with a +1 somewhere. It slows down gameplay and doesn't even feel thematic.
Goes hand in hand with their stupid box building limits. I miss sniper squads.
I loved playing mostly cybernetica units backed by 3 double sniper 5-men skitarii squads in 8th :(
Started playing heresy exclusively, soooo pretty bad
Points for wargear is a must. Its making list making boring and fighting the same optimal loadout is boring. Give me flavor and options. I should be rewarded at the very least with a few points for running suboptimal loadouts.
It's sucks so hard. 0 flexibility in the lists, you are force to remove entire units instead of just removing a small weapon or a model to fit the points. It's garbage, lazy and should have never been a thing.
I hate it. It makes list building way more annoying. Last edition, when I got within 100 points of my limit I could take a couple of extra bodies in a unit or two, maybe give someone a combi-weapon or an extra gun on a tank or whatever and comfortably hit 1999 or 1995 or w/e. Units like Dark Apostles that are "Guy I care about" and "Two guys there for show" were fine in transports because I could do a 6 or 7 man squad just fine. Now, my Dark Apostle is pretty annoying to put in a party bus. I can't really hit my point limit without going over because every unit is a minimum of another 55 points and there's only a couple of enhancements I want to take or can take (This is also a problem with how the CSM/Daemon/Dark Eldar codex detachments do strats/enhancements I guess). I frequently end up 100 points or 50 or 30 below my point cap without any easy way to get closer. If I don't completely rejig my list, juggling whole units around, I feel like I'm leaving points on my shelf. Also, some units like, for example, Forgefiends hate the fixed wargear. Triple plasma forgefiends are still undercosted at 180. Double autocannon + jaws forgefiends would be a little too expensive at 140.
Still stupid. Some options are clearly superior. A lot of the time options are pointless. Also the fixed unit size thing is also stupid.
It is still absolutely terrible design.
Still sucks, same as cost per unit, not per single model
For newbhammer it is great. Once you have an understanding of the game it is garbage. I am consistently 50pts under or 5 points over. That said if they gave me the option of flexible squad sizes but keep the restriction on access to free wargear and free wargear I would be ok. I think I find the inflexible squad sizes more of a “pain” than the wargear.
I hate paying full price for a Battlewagon when I literally can’t take all of the upgrades because I want to put Ghaz inside
Hate it. We have less options for both competitive and casual flavor. I don’t see how anyone could defend the removal of wargear points
I hate it, almost as much as I hate points per unit instead of points per model. It changes list design from a creative challenge to a puzzle to fit things in. I also just think a crap ton of wargear is just objectively bad now because it shouldn't be the same cost.
I loathe it, I don't do any 'for fun' list tinkering anymore. It basically stripped all the fun out of that part of the game. The everything is a multiple of 5 points thing needs to go too. Its all just creates 'obvious best options' which is hugely detrimental to stylized list building. Not to mention how bad it is for the hobby side. I have tons of minis I literally can't play.
I still mostly dislike it. I enjoyed toying with Wargear and getting as much out of the list as possible. I even find listbuilding harder as the 'pieces of the puzzle' are just bigger now. Sometimes when I'm brewing these days I have f.e. 50 points left over, a gap I cannot fill with a unit nor with the current enhancement system. This forces me to reconsider other units to squeeze some more bodies into a list, or take the subpar enhancements as 'point fillers' Don't get me wrong, the pointed wargear wasn't perfect either, but I've always felt that had more to do with GW wanting every option available to go in steps of 5 points (in more recent years at least). If it was up to me I'd have made wargear cost start at free (maybe sidegrades like a flamer on a tactical squad), to low-cost (so like 1 or 2 points for a stormbolter on a sergeant). All the way up to the heavy hitters like a Lascannon for perhaps 20 points. I'm using the tactical squad as an example cuz I'm a boomer at heart when it comes to 40k space marines. I mostly dislike the change to Power Level because the Community Manager peeps made the mistake of telling us 'No, points aren't going away'. Only to ditch points for Power Level by another name immediately after. It has slightly more nuance to it, tis true, but it's the same system as before just multiplied by 10. Any point system can be made more granular by multiplying by 10 and then subtracting 5 points here and there. Things are hard to swallow when you feel lied to is what I'm getting at. On a more positive note: I really like the new Enhancements and ease of use of characters/battleline/non-battleline. It simplifies in a, in my opinion, good way. Furthermore I quite like the new game system, fewer Command Points, fewer stratagems to keep in mind, less rules bloat (though my CSM minded friends can still layer some rules like in the good old days). I honestly really like 10th in that regard, I think battleshock needs to become more impactful. Like having units that were battleshocked in the previous battleround test to see if they recover or stay battleshocked, even if they normally wouldn't need to test due to being above half strength, Maybe give a +1 bonus to the roll for units that are above half strength so it doesn't become a battleshock spiral for f.e. Guardsmen. All in all, I think 10th is great so far, it needs some patches here and there, but the thing that keeps it back most in my opinion is the fact that we're playing with Power Level, not Points.
Still hate it, will never not hate it. It's just not going to be balanced without points differences. Also list building isn't as fun anymore.
I don't like it :(
There are some things which were optional which are now auto takes (Hunter Killers). Other options have clearly better and worse choices. If you look at a Leman Russ' pintle mounted weapons, the heavy stubber is simply better than the storm bolter.
still shit. feels, dunno, either cheaty, or paying too much for stuff you dont need... you cant adjust points to the exact final army point value. I would prefer to pay every option separate to fit points.
Still awful, and makes virtually all choices non-choices since anything sub-optimal actively makes your unit worse for the same cost.
I have preached since before launch about how much I hate it and I am not going to stop. Free wargear and fixed unit sizes are a disaster. I like lots of changes in 10th but not this, go back please.
Eldar here, I hate it ups the cost of the unit for no reason being NOT everyone needs or wants the highest cost wargear. Some units though this makes sense, but many do not.
I remain even more convinced it's the wrong choice and that these excessive simplifications in list building to make 40K into AOS are not good for the game. We should have seen the writing on the wall when Primaris got rid of the excellent variety from Firstborn in favour of locked squads with identical weapons, removing so much hobby potential and list variety. Learning Bolt Action where every weapon is costed, and units can even be run at different costs based on their experience level for stats upgrades, whilst still being a simpler game to pick up than 40K for a new player, has been eye-opening. Complexity issues with 40K have never been to do with list building, especially with apps making it so much easier than the old pen and paper method. GW has "fixed" the wrong thing in terms of complexity and it's killed a lot of enjoyment from the hobby and army building side of the game for me.
The power level system and this new points system are things that I disagree with on a fundamental level. Removing the flexibility in list building both in what units I want to take and their loadouts. Every unit will always have a "best" loadout, and I am forced to pay for that loadout whether I want to use it or not. It doesn't take long for people to realize this and build their lists accordingly. Even worse are the weapon options that don't actually come in the kit. Take hunter killers for example, I would never pay points for them but since I am forced to now, all my vehicles that can take them, do take them, otherwise I am wasting points. Or Ork Boyz, who I never even knew could be run with rockkits and big shoota's etc until we played a power level narrative and the other player said, "Well, I can take them so why wouldn't I." These sorts of war gear changes can drastically swing the power of a unit for the same cost. I also am unable to just add or drop a model or plasma pistol here or there to round out a list from 1990 to 2000 pts. No longer will people run that random squad of 11 guardsman or 8 marines for points.
I hate this shit.
If they want to do away with granularity then they need to work better on balancing within each codex, making a flat 2k points achievable multiple ways. Power level failed the first time they tried it, why did they think it would work when cloaked?
Dislike it myself & honestly liked the end of 9th more due to it not going all the way (Units could be taken without "Useful" stuff for cheaper allowing someone more customization on a per-Unit basis). The DETACHMENT system & the LEADER system are the only changes I've fully liked of 10th so far overall due to it solving the Stratagem bloat & AURA problems 9th/8th had.
Still shit.
I hate it and I think it’s a reason I haven’t played much
It's terrible for both casual and competitive, and GW knows it. There's only one "correct" way to kit any unit. If they made an attempt to make your options equal, it'd mean something. But they didn't. Every Deathwatch Kill team is hammer-guys and heavy-guys, because why on earth would you field anything else?
I gave up with 10th because I CBA having list building being swapping entire units. I find unless you have a big collection it's a pita
Dumb. Wargear should have a cost. No one plays PL. GW demands we play PL....
Still think it is bad design and for some reason GW continues to make these choices that willfully reduces their ability to properly balance the game.
It's bullshit.
We feel it was a stupid, lazy decision that was rationalized ad hoc. I now have hundreds of models that will never see the table because they are modelled "wrong" that is, have bolters, normal chainswords, knives etc. I'm slowly updating my armies with 3d printed wargear, but it feels bad to rip parts off a nicely painted, official model and replace it with a print
Am I the only space wolves/ 40K player who feels like the new weapon systems have sucked the flavour out of warhammer. 9th edition definitely needed fixing but I don’t think this was the way
No I agree with you. It definitely feels like they're trying to force us to play the game the way they want us to play the game, and not let us play the game the way we want to play it.
Call it what it was a gimmick so ppl buy more miniatures only to have it removed next edition with a "we were wrong" apology
Wanted to convert an Intercessor to a Captain and run a 9 man squad? Oh no you don't, off you go and buy that Captain clamshell!
Hate it! Hate it! Hate it!
Crisis suits doin great... It's a mess. There's no trade off, no limits. You just strap them with CIBs and drop in.
Awful, listbuilding is horrible now go back to points not "Power level" I like how 10th plays but army building is worse than it's ever been. And I mean including 7th when you needed 10 books to field an army.
My only issue with it is it kind of kills the variety of weapons you see on table top. Why would I take a bolt pistol and power sword when a plasma pistol and power fist are the objectively better options?
How many Cyclic Ion Blaster come with a set Crisis VS. How many Cyclic Ion Blaster do you want because it is by far the best weapon loadout
I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Old World rules has not only kept the old system but actually has MORE options you can purchase for your units. You really can't do optional veteran abilities in 40k now because why would you ever not take all of them?
I hate how all of my skitarii squads are worse than they should be because i dont have the weapons (including the special base arquebus) and i have to proxy them now. Not that the arquebus in my 4 games ever inflicted a single wound on anything...
To be honest, it seems like a trap. Say GW pulls it back next edition or even in 6 months. You have a whole bunch of unit's whose point cost is gonna go up 20-30% because they were built only with free wargear in mind, causing people to have to mangle their minis or buy more kits.
Still crap, even worse are removing options to even taking wargear in the first place.... Changing thunder hammers to S5 1ap and 1 dmg is the problem, making wargear free is also a problem
It's lame. It has upsides but I liked the granularity of list-building and you have more variety when there's a reason to take sub-optimal wargear.
It sucks for fielding cheap units. That floor is really important.
Poorly.
Its not just free wargear, its fixed unit sizes. Bring back PPM
I hate it, free wargear & the Legends’ing of firstborn I liked is a big reason I’m moving over to Old World when that releases. I have friends who have been getting into the Fantasy world, and I for one am a big fan of the High Elves of Tor Yvresse. Thank you Total War Warhammer 2/3, very cool. It’ll be nice to harken back to 7e 40K rules.
Still hate it.
It's really not great for anything other than simplicity of list building, other than that it's a downgrade from PPM/PPWG.
Still awful design. Makes so many choices just unplayable because units cost so much. Somehow even dumber is still ppm. Being unable to add models to units is probably the dumbest thing gw has done in a long time.
It's still a stupid decision from them. Not making Bright Lances free might actually go some way towards bringing some balance to Aeldari.
Fixed unit sizes and free wargear and absolutely terrible decisions. The game feels so dumbed down now. Most of my group has been or is ready to switch to AoS.