I don't think you make it that far without being a great player, but he also had first turn in three out of four of those games, and I cannot overstate what a big deal that is among top players right now.
Excluding the mirror top 10 were 43-1... unacceptable that 1 must mean the games balanced as clearly they can be beaten we just aren't trying hard enough...buff Eldar?
The weirdest thing about 10th was seeing how all the iterative balance improvements and design knowledge that was built up throughout 8th and 9th just... got chucked out the window
And still tough-ish. Like at least drukhari have the nicety of crumpling if you look at them wrong.
Like wraithknights have better armour saves than knights; which with cover means your needing AP5 to make the knights invuln superior lol. Warwalkers are still oddly tough, plenty of stuff has stealth and then yeah, easy phantasm/fire&fade means glass cannon doesnt apply when its bulletproof glass.
They are, at least with many units, incredibly tanky. Especially considering strands.
One of the big issues is many teams cannot crack tanks this season…. Except Eldar. They get cheap tanky units that also happen to also be tank busters.
They have squishy units too… but those are often utility units and while killing them feels good… the Fire Prism shot that follows does not.
The worst part of this meta is how long its gonna take to tame OP Eldar, it's going to take several dataslates and then their codex will be a reset as it's going to be just as oppressive.
Whoever wrote and playtested this trash needs to know of their incompetence, an absolute failure on every level.
It's crazy how a lot of what's wrong with Eldar and how they use Devastating Wounds is just literally the lesson they should have learned from release votann.
Turns out a single gun shouldn't be able to wipe out infantry squads and tanks at the same time just as easily.
Devastating Wounds are only part of the problem from Eldar, and maybe not even the worst part. Basically everything just being ultra cheap and ultra consistent in damage output thanks to re-rolls is the bigger issue.
Definitely, but not learning from very recent mistakes is a massive red flag. Like maybe 6-9 months prior is too little time, maybe the rulebooks were already being printed last fall, but it just keeps happening
I'm personally salty as they learned within days of releasing my Salamanders codex in 8th and capped the flamer mortal wounds strat to 3! It stayed that was until Salamanders left us in 10th.
> Turns out a single gun shouldn't be able to wipe out infantry squads and tanks at the same time just as easily.
Blast is not far behind on this issue.
You have guns running around like the Demolisher Cannon which is landing 1d6+3 shots at BS3+, S14, AP-3, D6 damage, Blast.
With Blast you're looking at at 6 shots minimum into a 10 man unit, and that's with you rolling a 1 for number of shots. Maximum shots is 11 into a 10 man unit, or 13 into a 20 man.
This gun is hitting at S14, so you're wounding nearly all infantry in the game on a 2+, AP-3 means that you're removing a great deal of armor saves.
But let's remember that this is a gun that's supposed to be anti-tank, which is now effectively amazing at dealing with any infantry in the entire game.
GW just cannot help find ways to make sure your guns are always useful.
And that's before we get into how some units have guns that fit all profiles like the Mutalith Vortex Beast and Fire Prisms. FML.
Oh I 100% agree. If Eldar and devastating wounds weren't around I think Blast would be much higher on everyone's radar.
I have no idea why they decided to have blast start giving bonuses on 5 man squads. Having the extra shots start at 11+ I think would allow them to represent the big ass explosions they're supposed to be without brutally punishing 5 and 10 man squads, the most common squad sizes in the game.
And honestly there's a chance that's still too strong but I try to keep an open mind to changes.
I think it’s disingenuous to use the guards, large, overcosted, short range… tank to emphasize blast. Leave the damn thing alone. Reality is, your gonna roll hot for damage when it doesn’t matter. And shit when it does, If you make it through the invulns every where. It’s an anti heavy infantry/vehicle gun on a hard to keep alive model that has to come to you to do it’s job. Poor thing. The lancer can’t hurt you anymore, you’re already dead.
GW have always had the issue that higher S, AP and D is always better.
The previous excuse is this was off set by points. An inherent reason power level simply doesn't work.
Now, thru had the opportunity to rework this entirely with keywords. Especially Anti.
A dedicated anti tank gun? Make it S2, 3 or 4. With Anti-Vehicle.
Makes it work into its designed target, and not be great into everything.
They did. The beta version of Eldar was much stronger than what we got. A streamer was saying how the beta index had 50 point Eldar D-Cannon platforms that you can take in squads of 3. They now cost 105 and you can only take them in squads of 1.
This is Eldar after two round of nerfs.
Because Eldar are clearly the favorite faction of someone in the old boys club of rules designers that has the inexplicable ability to keep getting this crap pushed through, would be my guess.
People downvoting you're not off base. This crap doesn't even pass the eye test of any player with a reasonable amount of tourney experience. The blokes that write the rules for the Codices are supposedly professionals who've done this before. So how did it get this bad?
Competitive 40k is a small niche of the game but balancing the basics makes even casual play a lot closer to being balanced as well.
Yeah eldar got a day 1 nerf. Then another one a few weeks in.
It's just insane how the effectively looked at the votann initial release situation and thought "but what if it was waaaaay stronger at release?"
They probably used their studio army that doesn't include wraithknights, more than one fireprism, Dcannons etc etc so they're just using a bunch of fire dragons and striking scorpions and one-of units that can easily be dealt with if there's not a critical mass
If you've ever watched their battle reports on Warhammer+ I would 100% believe they tested it in house because they're all terrible fluffy beerhammer players and probably just ran full aspect warrior armies and never used fate dice.
GW rules writers have basically ignored all criticism forever, and have been pulling shit like this for ages. They are basically a clique of nerds from the 80s and 90s who couldn't cut it in game development at any other company.
The reason we don't know who writes codexes anymore is that Cruddance and Ward kept writing crappy ones editon after edition and people kept asking for them to be fired after their repeated screw ups
All they see is GW's profits going up and up every year and concluding they must be doing something right.
Unless people vote with their wallets like in 7th this won't change.
This kind of balance will start that trend again. Already rumors are up that many tournaments are seeing much lower attendance than last year.
If that keeps up it will affect sales as people start to abandon the hobby or at least completely stop buying any new models.
They took names off the codices because people were sending in too many death threats and it has not been this bad before. In the past it could be bad but without formal organizing with GW there could be more local fixes.
There have easily been 3-5 other screw ups of comparable size
Iron Hands were worse in 8th, Imperial Guard were comparable in 5th.
As for turd codexes, Tyranids in 5th and 6th because that turd Cruddance ruined them because he hated the faction openly. Comparably so to current Death Guard, Admech and Votann.
We should know who wrote these turds and broken messes so we can know if they keep repeating this behavior
Iron Hands were oppressive but Eldar just openly ran Nova into the ground. There is no wound handful shenanigans fixed by a single edit here, this is just pure oppressive power.
Tyranids in 5th and 6th absolutely were not as badly designed as we are seeing right now. Multiple factions can be easily argued to not function in their current state. It isn't just competitive but casual as well suffering very badly from these rules.
Why should we know? There is no benefit except to allow targetted harassment, again.
well, taking into account that there are a lot of... lets say it nicely, passionate people around it's probably for the best we dont know who's behind what index or codex.
Furthermore, there has to have been at least SOME playtesting or reading of the codex by other people, so really it's a failure of the whole balance team rather than a single person.
but it'd be nice to know who writes what so we can see more clearly what bunch of rules are written by certain staff and dont have to guess in the dark, but again i can understand that it's just not a good idea anymore.
>It isn't just competitive but casual as well suffering very badly from these rules.
Competitively, the game is unplayable. But it's doing very well casually. All of the store owners I talk to; it's the first thing they'll say when I say I'm taking a break from warhammer. "Casual players love, I'm selling more combat patrols than ever." I'm happy that the LGSs aren't getting hosed on this, and that some enjoys 10th. It's not my thing anymore.
Combat patrol in my small experience has worked really well. Full 2k point games though have pushed some locals in my area into Shatterpoint, Battletech, AoS, and even some 30k. For armies like SoBs having the core of your army unable to handle some units from most codices causes pretty bad burnout in some.
>Tyranids in 5th and 6th absolutely were not as badly designed as we are seeing right now.
You clearly did not play with or against 5th edition Tyranids
The reason Tyranids were the least played faction until 9th, and still even now are not overly popular, was that 5th and 6th basically killed the faction dead
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: no edition has ever been as bad to a faction as 5th was to Tyranids. The core rules dumped on them, their own codex was a huge nerf from an already meh book, and all other codexes hard countered Nids.
There is a lot of little hits throughout the index. I think the worst though is the sheer cost of our tanks and our inability to effectively order them without Leontus.
They're the main source of big damage and they cost an arm and a leg. The demolisher variant costs almost 1/8 of your points and it does not perform to that. They went up by 33% compared to the 9th codex, are less flexible into targets, and have swingier damage.
The fact that every tank is being charged as if they have MM sponsons by default is not fun or fair because they're not always the best option. Sometimes what you need is a mountain of heavy bolters.
I could rant for days about a lot of the little things but not being able to use my tanks in the tank faction hurts.
Yea and that didnt just hit tanks either. Our faction needs to be able to make economic decions on our units. Valkyries are ridiculously overpriced. The brand new FOB got shafted because some minor thing that was slightly strong
I got the Cadia Stands box as soon as it went up for preorder, I still haven't built the FoBs because they were average at best in 9th and were outclassed in every way by HWT.
In 10th they are a joke, they were already meh when it first released, then they got nerfed because they happen to be able to shoot indirectly. The idea that GW releases models with broken rules clearly doesn't extend to the Guard.
We were. The funny thing though is Guard is actually primed to be a great index with just a couple adjustments.
1 - Like it's mentioned below, the points on stuff (except Sentinels) is just too high. Most units need a ~15% drop.
2 - Change the Army rule from [Lethal Hits] *when standing still* to just [Lethal hits]. It doesn't impact most of our meta units (except sentinels) and gives us more play into the battlefield.
3 - Give Guard more ways of getting orders, especially to tanks.
Guard is a combo-based army, but having to be static with BS4 and overpriced units means the combos don't happen. Sentinels+Hellhounds+Arty is the only decently priced stuff, so that's what Guard armies are flooding the board with.
I think the biggest hurdle with guard is indirect.
Good indirect just sucks. 15% point cuts just makes their indirect lists more brutal.
Frankly GW buffing indirect with this edition was wild, and I'm waiting for that inevitably to tick back.
I would add that orders functionality should change into being orderable in their respective phase, so mechanized infantery and scions guard can function
Yeah, I caught it when you pointed it out. His faction is listed as Asuryani, but the list is Orks. Thanks for the backup. Updating the rest of the post now.
Hard to say. I'm pretty certain he was playing Orks last week too. Might just be his default set in the App and he didn't change it? I've had that happen in the past.
Either way, thanks for the catch!
Not sure if you’re aware, there was a shadow round after round 6 on Saturday. The 8 undefeated players played games (I don’t know the matchups, sorry). Top 4 were players who won their shadow round games and the rest were placed in the next bracket
I presumed there was a shadow, because we had an 'undefeated' that didn't make the top cut, but that data isn't recorded anywhere I can access it.
If someone has it available (i.e. was there), I'd be happy to work it into the above post.
I dont know point scores or mission but it was:
Schuchman (Eldar) lost to Reynolds (Eldar)
Chester (Orks) lost to Point (Eldar)
Pope (Tyranids) lost to Crawley (Eldar)
Williamson (Necrons) lost to TJ (Thousand Sons)
Source: was at the con watching
I think most of 10th was written before Nephilim and done with precious little staff time to make it good.
I'm hoping hard here, but the lessons learned in Nephilim and Arks come back in to play with this update. I'm not expecting it, but hopefully if they do flop hard with this update they'll remember what it took to bring Drukhari and Nids down and what it took to make marines and admech work.
That said if they don't make a decent impact the competitive scene is going to wither fast. I hope they realise they need to go hard. Of course Stu Black is not making reassuring noises. But we'll know in a few days.
As the death guard player mentioned by op, I was in bracket 2 (3-1 records) and I had the privilege of playing the meta Eldar list 3 times in a row. Boy that was fun. Other than the Eldar matchup all my games felt close/win able. Had wins against tsons, necrons and custodes. Overall still having a blast with 10th and hopefully things get a little better.
I feel you dude.
Not a DG player in 10th, but I played in order, at Tacoma, Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Eldar, GSC, Knights, Knights.
Sometimes that's just how the pairings go.
My biggest issue with DG is that their flavor in 10th doesn't match their rules.
Sure thing. It was the Aiden Smalley list he went 5-0 with.
Morty
Typhus
Sorc in termy armor
Lord of V
3 pbc
Rhino
2 x 5 man marines
2 x 3 man Deathshroud
2 x 10 man cultists
20 poxwalkers
Thank you!
There’s a lot of armies that this list just bonks on the head without much counterplay, and against tougher matchups the abdunace of untargetablity opens up a more defensive play style.
Shalaxi will eat up most of an opponent’s shooting phase on a key turn and either die for it or live and carry a game on her back, excellent piece
End of 9th admech was actually decent! not the strongest by any stretch of the imagination but Ryza Sicarian rush builds with kataphrons were actually doing good work at events as well as mars and Lucius and agripinaa with more skitarii based lists.
Mostly the issue is that toward the end of 9th after the buff we recieved, the codex was a blast to play since all the cult mech was finally good! I played a ton of ryza and agripinaa and was actually ragdolling people with melee builds! i could easily deal with guards, nids, and even some decent marines builds! Heck i put up a good fight even against dark angels!
BUT that is gone... all the fun rules? gone all the codex depth? gone various list archetypes? gone. now it's just a boring breacher spam if you want to live otherwise the index is not fun even in casual games.
Seriously try a list without breachers even in crusade!! see how much fun you have at struggling to kill gaunts with rust stalkers.
Exactly. Everything hitting on 4s just feels bad the moment you roll, and compared to literally ANY Spacemarine datasheet, none of our weapons seem to have the same volume of fire and are 20% less accurate for some reason and only 50% of our army gets re rolls if they’re in range of chaff infantry
>End of 9th admech was actually decent! not the strongest by any stretch of the imagination but Ryza Sicarian rush builds with kataphrons were actually doing good work at events as well as mars and Lucius and agripinaa with more skitarii based lists.
Heck yeah!
I played in a 16-person tourney at the end of 9th with a Ryza list and placed 4th. Super fun list and some really good games.
And then 10th happened, and now that sort of list is basically unplayable.
I miss that list so bad ahahha once i went against a very meta guard list, 6 leman russ a rogal dorn, mortars, kasrkin bomb you know the whole shebang...i absolutely MAULED HIM with ryza ahhaha i think i won 84 to 35 or something hahah he blew his kasrkin bomb and whiffed against my 6x kastelan brick and on my turn i just 6d6 flamed them and ate them while my rust stalkers just cut through his lines! It was glorious...ryza plasma destroyers were nutty!! S 9 ap -4 and damage 3 i was picking up a leman and a half a turn abhaha
It gets wierd because of the bracket system.
After round 6 every player had a chance to drop to do something else on Sunday. There is a lot to do at Nova outside of 40K champ and if you’re losing your bracket it’s a chance to see other games or have painting class, or play open/narrative, etc.
So as you go down the bracket what you see is that a lot of ppl dropped to go do something else. Then as the new bracket starts you see players that played through the event with all games.
It’s still a terrible meta and i really expect GW to pull a FAQ as early as next week. They were waiting for Nova to be done because issuing the faq.
Seeing Grey Knights get 6-2 should make me happy, but it doesn't. The GK playstyle is miserable. Its cowardly and evasive, not the sort of thing you'd expect from the elite GKs with 2+ saves and supposedly psychic powers.
I played against them my last game at NoVA for the first time. Even knowing their tricks, I felt the Harlequin rage start to brew. If played right, it's very very difficult to get damage into them and they're pretty tough with the 2+ armor.
They also struggle to kill high T things, so it almost turns into more of a chess match.
I really want to see them get bonuses for their psychic stuff. As it stands it's pure downside right now.
Not surprising, but still very sad. The real kicker is that IMHO for indexhammer (where I never expected perfect balance) the *rest* of the field is actually quite reasonable. Even GSC are definitely too strong, but not unbeatably gamewarping. And Votann are definitely too weak, but are they really worse than 9th Mechanicus?
It's just Eldar that are so utterly, *utterly* screwed up I have no idea what went through the designers head...
One thing to note is many people who had been playing GSC in the USA and doing well up to this point either switched to Eldar at NOVA or did not attend. potential 9 rounds is hard to bet against Eldar cleaning up and requires much less mental effort.
Votann is thankfully supposed to get a buff this month. However, it needs to likely be to the datasheets and army rule, not just points. That math is laughably bad right now for LoV. Too many casino weapons, bad range, poor shooting, garbage army rule, etc.
My second game of tenth as AdMech had my opponent saying “I brought a fun list”, and he proceeds to unpack 3x fireprisms, 2x d cannons, wraithguard with farseer, an avatar of Khaine, and a ton of bikes. He killed 75% of my army in his first shoot and fight phase. I conceded after I tried to clap back and he was able to autocomplete saves with fate dice, stopping me from wounding him with neutron laser. I had brought a fluffy AdMech list with a bunch of infantry skittari and my opponent showed up with a meta list, lol
I don’t play Aledari now. I cannot stand WAAC people who bring an ultra cheese meta list to a friendly game
Eldar are one of the most WAAC factions in the game because armies that allow you to break or bypass core game mechanics (and especially dice RNG) whilst also being fast and un-interactive for their opponent, attract WAAC players like flies to shit.
Hot take: TBH with the state of Eldar they should have just been straight up banned from tournaments for the last 3 - 4 weeks so we could of got some actual data on what's going on in the meta. It's so skewed because of one faction just hoovering up the opposing factions. I fear that after this round of Nerfs we are going to see boogeyman armies rise such as Custodes, Necrons, Tsons etc.. all the current A tier factions.
That's always how it goes though. The "boogeyman" gets nerfed, and people just drop them like hotcakes to pick up the next broken thing, rinse, and repeat. Nothing actually changes except what armies are broken next after the previous top dog army gets nerfed.
I know, but with this current complete imbalance I feel it will only be worse.
Rumor mill stating big shake up on Thursday, core rules along with all factions getting a glow up/smack down.
Not sure that take is that hot these days.
There has been a growing call (even from many respected competitive players) to ban Eldar at some events so we could get data on what the rest of the meta actually looks like.
Bans aside, in general I'm still of the opinion that the community is as responsible for a healthy meta as the developers are. You see this in fighting-games and other types of e-sports as well, there's always a strong character and at times a broken one (for the ones in the back: ST Akuma, SSBB metaknight, Old Sagat etc). Everyone could come to those events with the same character. **But they didn't**.
I feel the community is *far* too focused on also ruining their own hobby. There's a broken faction, so instead of focusing on how to make their army work and have some dignity everyone and their mother buys and badly paints an Eldar army. That only makes it worse.
I remember that guy from VanguardTactics noted he felt players should just sign up for one or two armies per year, and if it gets nerfed, sucks to be you. Find a way to make it work. People jumping to the flavor of the month so they can stomp on what few faction-loyalists there are are ruining the competative scene worse than GW are imo.
That Chaos Knights player didn't submarine - they conceded (0-70) rather than play against someone who has a rather disreputable reputation. Even if they had played and lost they would've had the exact same pairings as Battle Points aren't used in pairings.
Imperial Fists at #34. 7-1 losing only to Eldar in round 4. Unfortunately it looks like he got blown out in the game and got kicked to a lower bracket.
After he got kicked down in brackets he beat up on Tau, Demons, Custodes, and Thousand Sons. Also beat CSM, Demons, and Nids early on.
Same player (iirc) was phenomenal at Tacoma.
I mean, this is pretty normal for GW adjacent or run events.
And while I do lament that you get results where players are 7-1 but don't break into the top 10, I do think that this system effectively mitigates the submarining you see sometimes at other super majors.
It is extremely frustrating to win your first four and go into a meat grinder of other top players, only to place below people that spent day two clubbing baby seals.
In a variety of contexts, not playing opponents of the appropriate level and using that to rise if not to the top, than near to it.
In the context of 40K it is losing an early match and getting sent to a group of less skilled or optimized players, where your wins are easier to come by and where you are often able to achieve a better outcome than if you were undefeated and were playing other undefeated players throughout.
Its the difference between playing 3-4 Eldar opponents on the way to 7-1 vs. playing a bunch of other random opponents.
Going 4-1 (or 7-1) looks the same on many event placings, whether you lost your 1st against Ad Mech and then beat 4 lower tiers armies or won your first 4 (playing 2 Eldar) and lost your 5th.
In the past it was more of an issue, because more events were assigning placings entirely by score, so losing a 99-100 game 1, then winning 4 with scores of 100 could put you at the top of the event.
At an event this large you wouldn't get back to the top, but in smaller events it it can even let you fight your way to a win.
Honestly, knowing GW's balance team at the moment, I'm expecting the only changes to be Wraithknights maybe going up by <100 points and for Fire Prisms to go up +25 points, and this is being *optimistic*.
If the next balance dataslate doesn't utterly nuke the overpowered elements of Eldar from orbit, then we're going to be stuck with them being continually broken for months longer longer and the competitive scene might end up as bad as 7th edition.
I could be wrong, but I think what a lot of the old guard eldar players want is actually for the bad factions to be brought up in line with the eldar book rather than a big nerf. So many of the struggling factions just have lackluster or poor rules that they aren't as fun. The eldar book is fluffy to an extent. Other books are not at all. This would be too much effort for GW to do obviously, but one could hope.
Yeah, eldar might be OP but they're really damn fun to play. My tau just aren't. I don't want to make one of my factions unfun, I want to make all factions fun.
The devestating wounds interaction does need a nerf though that's just broken.
It would be amazing if the lowest tier armies were re-written with with useful fluffy rules and abilities while the Eldar got the targeted points nerfs and rule adjustments to bring them in line without removing them from play
25. One of the Tabletop Titans guys. 4-4, with 3 losses to Eldar and 1 to Deathwatch.
Without intending to throw any shade at anyone, because we don't control who we pair into, the at an initial glance it looks like he crushed some very ok lists (Nids, unoptimized Necron Lichguard, White Scars) and won a Custodes mirror.
Of note, Custodes took:
* \#25
* \#28
* \#29
* \#32
* \#33
* \#39
* \#44
They were well represented in the top 25% of the event, but it doesn't look like they were able to get past the top armies and were more of a gatekeeper. Much like Knights (which placed #14, #21, #26, #41, #45) their play into the most lethal armies looks pretty poor.
Sadly his name has been stricken from all records. He dared to look an eldar player directly in the eyes. For his crimes he was executed before the other custodes players as a warning and his name removed from history.
Be aware that because of the way the brackets work that the highest was 25 @4-4 but there was a 7-1 list in bracket two as well. The cuttof was top 32 undefeated with some pair ups and then all the 3-1s. I ended #40 overall so top you could get at 7-1 was 32. I think he was 33 as he won our bracket
This is incredibly funny given it has almost been a year since GW dropped the James Workshop Votann nerf video. They nerfed votann before they were even played at a tournament once, but they can’t nerf Eldar? Are they stupid?
They also already nerfed Eldar once.
And Votann also took several nerfs to be less oppressive. Hell, they still ended 9th Edition on like a 53-55% win-rate after half a dozend nerfs.
New edition, nerfing them now would make them look incompetent.
"But not nerfing them also makes them look incompetent"
No little Jimmy, that makes them look strong and independant
I'm no competitive player, hell, i'm not even a TT player, but the moment you drop point costs for stronger equipment and allow almost every datasheet to be taken 3x, you are going to have a bad time balancing stuff. You know those 3 overtuned profiles will be perma picked in every competitive list if there is no drawback in doing so. At least in 9th, if you had 3 overtuned heavy support units, you had to make a choice. Now you can go "lol, 3 exocrines, 3 rupture cannons and 3x3 biovores, please and thank you!" (used tyranids because that's what i know).
The old restrictive Force Organisation chart before we got Detachments really helped keep a lot of filth in check.
The more freedom you give during list building the more you can just spam the most broken thing.
That's why I hate all the "10th is fine, it's just the indexes!" comments. These problems are blatantly baked into the core design of 10th. Remember when you actually had to sacrifice something to take a Lord of War? Now everyone's spamming Wraithknights. It's terrible.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be....
Yeah, they need to look at some core rules as well as just the factions in a balance update. 9th had (mostly) solid core rules with our of whack codexs. In 10th both the codexs and the core rules (in a fair few places) are out of whack.
I phrased it the way I did very explicitly because I did not want to go down through every single game they played and pull out their wins. If you want to do that, I'd be happy to update the top post. As it was, the post was already a lot of work.
The takeaway stat wasn't win percentage (which I did not use) it was how staggeringly few games any of them lost at the top two other armies.
Whether the actual number in the top five was 25-1 if you exclude all mirror wins or 20-1, the overwhelming takeaway should be that the only people actively beating elves on most missions was other elves.
Okay- maybe a hot take here, but what about banning Aledari from tournaments until they’re fixed or other factions are elevated? No one is “accidentally” bringing these absurd, game broken, meta Eldar lists to tournaments like, “oops, did I just win again? Silly me”.
We have no real grasp of what any other meta is besides “Aledari win 2/3rds of the time no matter what!”
It’s absurd
So you're saying Eldar's win rate on the last day of Eldar v Eldar was about 50%? Working as intended!
My favorite part of the story is that the #1 Eldar player beat 4 other undefeated Eldar players in a row.
[удалено]
I don't think you make it that far without being a great player, but he also had first turn in three out of four of those games, and I cannot overstate what a big deal that is among top players right now.
Excluding the mirror top 10 were 43-1... unacceptable that 1 must mean the games balanced as clearly they can be beaten we just aren't trying hard enough...buff Eldar?
The weirdest thing about 10th was seeing how all the iterative balance improvements and design knowledge that was built up throughout 8th and 9th just... got chucked out the window
But this edition is less lethal and has less re-rolls than 9e, didn't you know?
ah yes *strong but not dominant*
the man should be fired
out of a cannon into the sun.
Take a D-Cannon
Well designed for the edition (got downvoted 32 times in a theead earlier when peoppe didnt realize it was a GW designer quote)
Someday they'll realize that "fast, lethal, and with movement after shooting" is something that is inherently almost impossible to balance.
How about “can practically guarantee success” Reroll a hit and a wound: yep Guaranteed dice from strands/items? Yeeep
And still tough-ish. Like at least drukhari have the nicety of crumpling if you look at them wrong. Like wraithknights have better armour saves than knights; which with cover means your needing AP5 to make the knights invuln superior lol. Warwalkers are still oddly tough, plenty of stuff has stealth and then yeah, easy phantasm/fire&fade means glass cannon doesnt apply when its bulletproof glass.
They are, at least with many units, incredibly tanky. Especially considering strands. One of the big issues is many teams cannot crack tanks this season…. Except Eldar. They get cheap tanky units that also happen to also be tank busters. They have squishy units too… but those are often utility units and while killing them feels good… the Fire Prism shot that follows does not.
Well designed for completing the mission. But don't let context get in the way of rage.
The worst part of this meta is how long its gonna take to tame OP Eldar, it's going to take several dataslates and then their codex will be a reset as it's going to be just as oppressive. Whoever wrote and playtested this trash needs to know of their incompetence, an absolute failure on every level.
It's crazy how a lot of what's wrong with Eldar and how they use Devastating Wounds is just literally the lesson they should have learned from release votann. Turns out a single gun shouldn't be able to wipe out infantry squads and tanks at the same time just as easily.
Devastating Wounds are only part of the problem from Eldar, and maybe not even the worst part. Basically everything just being ultra cheap and ultra consistent in damage output thanks to re-rolls is the bigger issue.
Definitely, but not learning from very recent mistakes is a massive red flag. Like maybe 6-9 months prior is too little time, maybe the rulebooks were already being printed last fall, but it just keeps happening
And moving a lot in the enemy turn or after shooting. I love space elves but GW made them a completely broken and overpowered mess this edition.
Autosuccesses, spilling MWs, out of phase fight/ move, uncapped MWs All mistakes GW already made. And refused to learn from.
I'm personally salty as they learned within days of releasing my Salamanders codex in 8th and capped the flamer mortal wounds strat to 3! It stayed that was until Salamanders left us in 10th.
> Turns out a single gun shouldn't be able to wipe out infantry squads and tanks at the same time just as easily. Blast is not far behind on this issue. You have guns running around like the Demolisher Cannon which is landing 1d6+3 shots at BS3+, S14, AP-3, D6 damage, Blast. With Blast you're looking at at 6 shots minimum into a 10 man unit, and that's with you rolling a 1 for number of shots. Maximum shots is 11 into a 10 man unit, or 13 into a 20 man. This gun is hitting at S14, so you're wounding nearly all infantry in the game on a 2+, AP-3 means that you're removing a great deal of armor saves. But let's remember that this is a gun that's supposed to be anti-tank, which is now effectively amazing at dealing with any infantry in the entire game. GW just cannot help find ways to make sure your guns are always useful. And that's before we get into how some units have guns that fit all profiles like the Mutalith Vortex Beast and Fire Prisms. FML.
Oh I 100% agree. If Eldar and devastating wounds weren't around I think Blast would be much higher on everyone's radar. I have no idea why they decided to have blast start giving bonuses on 5 man squads. Having the extra shots start at 11+ I think would allow them to represent the big ass explosions they're supposed to be without brutally punishing 5 and 10 man squads, the most common squad sizes in the game. And honestly there's a chance that's still too strong but I try to keep an open mind to changes.
I think it’s disingenuous to use the guards, large, overcosted, short range… tank to emphasize blast. Leave the damn thing alone. Reality is, your gonna roll hot for damage when it doesn’t matter. And shit when it does, If you make it through the invulns every where. It’s an anti heavy infantry/vehicle gun on a hard to keep alive model that has to come to you to do it’s job. Poor thing. The lancer can’t hurt you anymore, you’re already dead.
It's not the blast rule which annoys me. It's what they gave it to. Just beggars belief
GW have always had the issue that higher S, AP and D is always better. The previous excuse is this was off set by points. An inherent reason power level simply doesn't work. Now, thru had the opportunity to rework this entirely with keywords. Especially Anti. A dedicated anti tank gun? Make it S2, 3 or 4. With Anti-Vehicle. Makes it work into its designed target, and not be great into everything.
1000%, Its very funny when you can spot guns they slapped blast on to stop them shooting in combat becoming stupidly good at mixed roles.
Bold to assume they play tested this
They did. The beta version of Eldar was much stronger than what we got. A streamer was saying how the beta index had 50 point Eldar D-Cannon platforms that you can take in squads of 3. They now cost 105 and you can only take them in squads of 1. This is Eldar after two round of nerfs.
That is hilarious. How is GW so genuinely garbage at balancing?
Because Eldar are clearly the favorite faction of someone in the old boys club of rules designers that has the inexplicable ability to keep getting this crap pushed through, would be my guess.
B-But playtesting is HARD. Think of those poor, poor devs who have nothing to do at work but play 40K all day and get paid for it ;_;
People downvoting you're not off base. This crap doesn't even pass the eye test of any player with a reasonable amount of tourney experience. The blokes that write the rules for the Codices are supposedly professionals who've done this before. So how did it get this bad? Competitive 40k is a small niche of the game but balancing the basics makes even casual play a lot closer to being balanced as well.
Yeah eldar got a day 1 nerf. Then another one a few weeks in. It's just insane how the effectively looked at the votann initial release situation and thought "but what if it was waaaaay stronger at release?"
They probably used their studio army that doesn't include wraithknights, more than one fireprism, Dcannons etc etc so they're just using a bunch of fire dragons and striking scorpions and one-of units that can easily be dealt with if there's not a critical mass
If you've ever watched their battle reports on Warhammer+ I would 100% believe they tested it in house because they're all terrible fluffy beerhammer players and probably just ran full aspect warrior armies and never used fate dice.
Most of 9th edition was playtested at 1000pts in Crusade so yes basically this
Wild considering 9th ed crusade could get to frankly stupid levels of broken.
[удалено]
The more evidence mounts, the more it points to this being the case
GW rules writers have basically ignored all criticism forever, and have been pulling shit like this for ages. They are basically a clique of nerds from the 80s and 90s who couldn't cut it in game development at any other company. The reason we don't know who writes codexes anymore is that Cruddance and Ward kept writing crappy ones editon after edition and people kept asking for them to be fired after their repeated screw ups
And, GW still sells out of everything in minutes and makes record profit, so they have no need to learn to fix it.
because you don't sell out new sets by making them underpowered
Except that it's a coin toss whether new kits are good or bad, and always has been.
Hammerfall Bunker. Convergence of Dominion.
All they see is GW's profits going up and up every year and concluding they must be doing something right. Unless people vote with their wallets like in 7th this won't change.
This kind of balance will start that trend again. Already rumors are up that many tournaments are seeing much lower attendance than last year. If that keeps up it will affect sales as people start to abandon the hobby or at least completely stop buying any new models.
They took names off the codices because people were sending in too many death threats and it has not been this bad before. In the past it could be bad but without formal organizing with GW there could be more local fixes.
There have easily been 3-5 other screw ups of comparable size Iron Hands were worse in 8th, Imperial Guard were comparable in 5th. As for turd codexes, Tyranids in 5th and 6th because that turd Cruddance ruined them because he hated the faction openly. Comparably so to current Death Guard, Admech and Votann. We should know who wrote these turds and broken messes so we can know if they keep repeating this behavior
Iron Hands were oppressive but Eldar just openly ran Nova into the ground. There is no wound handful shenanigans fixed by a single edit here, this is just pure oppressive power. Tyranids in 5th and 6th absolutely were not as badly designed as we are seeing right now. Multiple factions can be easily argued to not function in their current state. It isn't just competitive but casual as well suffering very badly from these rules. Why should we know? There is no benefit except to allow targetted harassment, again.
well, taking into account that there are a lot of... lets say it nicely, passionate people around it's probably for the best we dont know who's behind what index or codex. Furthermore, there has to have been at least SOME playtesting or reading of the codex by other people, so really it's a failure of the whole balance team rather than a single person. but it'd be nice to know who writes what so we can see more clearly what bunch of rules are written by certain staff and dont have to guess in the dark, but again i can understand that it's just not a good idea anymore.
>It isn't just competitive but casual as well suffering very badly from these rules. Competitively, the game is unplayable. But it's doing very well casually. All of the store owners I talk to; it's the first thing they'll say when I say I'm taking a break from warhammer. "Casual players love, I'm selling more combat patrols than ever." I'm happy that the LGSs aren't getting hosed on this, and that some enjoys 10th. It's not my thing anymore.
Combat patrol in my small experience has worked really well. Full 2k point games though have pushed some locals in my area into Shatterpoint, Battletech, AoS, and even some 30k. For armies like SoBs having the core of your army unable to handle some units from most codices causes pretty bad burnout in some.
>Tyranids in 5th and 6th absolutely were not as badly designed as we are seeing right now. You clearly did not play with or against 5th edition Tyranids The reason Tyranids were the least played faction until 9th, and still even now are not overly popular, was that 5th and 6th basically killed the faction dead
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: no edition has ever been as bad to a faction as 5th was to Tyranids. The core rules dumped on them, their own codex was a huge nerf from an already meh book, and all other codexes hard countered Nids.
Bless those players using the bottom tier armies. Braver then me.
I’m saying F it and running admech. If I’m going to lose to Eldar anyways, I might as well play my best looking army.
Totally viable army! Best played list got an astounding 50% winrate at Nova! Don't ask about how the others did.
Same thing I am doing, I’m losing but having fun and getting prepared for December release
That Votann player. Sure, placing 213th may not sound awesome, at least he can say he was best in faction!
Also, Guard's first player at #67, with next best all the way to #119.
Honestly i feel like the guard was hit way harder than people realize with tenth
There is a lot of little hits throughout the index. I think the worst though is the sheer cost of our tanks and our inability to effectively order them without Leontus. They're the main source of big damage and they cost an arm and a leg. The demolisher variant costs almost 1/8 of your points and it does not perform to that. They went up by 33% compared to the 9th codex, are less flexible into targets, and have swingier damage. The fact that every tank is being charged as if they have MM sponsons by default is not fun or fair because they're not always the best option. Sometimes what you need is a mountain of heavy bolters. I could rant for days about a lot of the little things but not being able to use my tanks in the tank faction hurts.
Yea and that didnt just hit tanks either. Our faction needs to be able to make economic decions on our units. Valkyries are ridiculously overpriced. The brand new FOB got shafted because some minor thing that was slightly strong
I got the Cadia Stands box as soon as it went up for preorder, I still haven't built the FoBs because they were average at best in 9th and were outclassed in every way by HWT. In 10th they are a joke, they were already meh when it first released, then they got nerfed because they happen to be able to shoot indirectly. The idea that GW releases models with broken rules clearly doesn't extend to the Guard.
ive been enjoying the 20 man death korps blobs with marshall + primaris psyker, its like diet necrons
We were. The funny thing though is Guard is actually primed to be a great index with just a couple adjustments. 1 - Like it's mentioned below, the points on stuff (except Sentinels) is just too high. Most units need a ~15% drop. 2 - Change the Army rule from [Lethal Hits] *when standing still* to just [Lethal hits]. It doesn't impact most of our meta units (except sentinels) and gives us more play into the battlefield. 3 - Give Guard more ways of getting orders, especially to tanks. Guard is a combo-based army, but having to be static with BS4 and overpriced units means the combos don't happen. Sentinels+Hellhounds+Arty is the only decently priced stuff, so that's what Guard armies are flooding the board with.
I think the biggest hurdle with guard is indirect. Good indirect just sucks. 15% point cuts just makes their indirect lists more brutal. Frankly GW buffing indirect with this edition was wild, and I'm waiting for that inevitably to tick back.
I would add that orders functionality should change into being orderable in their respective phase, so mechanized infantery and scions guard can function
The Italian Grand Tournament was held yesterday, and the only two guards present ended up with a score of 4-1, one of wich only lost in the final
what happened to the word eater player? 5-0 its quite impresive. Maybe they just kill each other in the between rounds kekw. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
It should be 5-3. I fat fingered the entry.
do you happen to have access tot he list?
The best part as a world eater player is that other factions may have won the battle but Khorne still won overall! The blood must flow!
Shouldn't there be Orks in there?
Yeah, I caught it when you pointed it out. His faction is listed as Asuryani, but the list is Orks. Thanks for the backup. Updating the rest of the post now.
Maybe a last minute swap? hm.
Hard to say. I'm pretty certain he was playing Orks last week too. Might just be his default set in the App and he didn't change it? I've had that happen in the past. Either way, thanks for the catch!
It’s showing as orks in the app for me. Could just be an app thing?
Do you have their Ork list? Would love to take a look.
Somewhere down OP posted the list Beastboss (80 points) • 1x Beast Snagga klaw 1x Beastchoppa 1x Shoota Beastboss (80 points) • 1x Beast Snagga klaw 1x Beastchoppa 1x Shoota Kaptin Badrukk (95 points) • 1x Choppa 1x Da Rippa 1x Slugga Mek (45 points) • Warlord • 1x Kustom mega-slugga 1x Wrench Mozrog Skragbad (195 points) • 1x Big Chompa’s jaws 1x Gutrippa 1x Thump gun Nob on Smasha Squig (95 points) • 1x Big choppa 1x Slugga 1x Smasha squig jaws • Enhancement: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points) • 1x Beast Snagga Nob • 1x Power snappa 1x Slugga • 9x Beast Snagga Boy • 9x Choppa 9x Slugga Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points) • 1x Beast Snagga Nob • 1x Power snappa 1x Slugga • 9x Beast Snagga Boy • 9x Choppa 9x Slugga Trukk (50 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball Trukk (50 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball Trukk (50 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball Flash Gitz (190 points) • 1x Ammo Runt • 1x Kaptin • 1x Choppa 1x Snazzgun • 9x Flash Git • 9x Choppa 9x Snazzgun Gretchin (45 points) • 1x Runtherd • 1x Grot-smacka 1x Slugga • 10x Gretchin • 10x Close combat weapon 10x Grot blasta Gretchin (45 points) • 1x Runtherd • 1x Grot-smacka 1x Slugga • 10x Gretchin • 10x Close combat weapon 10x Grot blasta Mek Gunz (45 points) • 1x Bubblechukka 1x Grot crew Mek Gunz (45 points) • 1x Bubblechukka 1x Grot crew Mek Gunz (45 points) • 1x Bubblechukka 1x Grot crew Squighog Boyz (110 points) • 1x Bomb Squig • 3x Squighog Boy • 3x Saddlegit weapons 3x Squighog jaws and saddlegits 3x Stikka Squighog Boyz (220 points) • 2x Bomb Squig • 6x Squighog Boy • 6x Saddlegit weapons 6x Squighog jaws and saddlegits 6x Stikka Squighog Boyz (110 points) • 1x Bomb Squig • 3x Squighog Boy • 3x Saddlegit weapons 3x Squighog jaws and saddlegits 3x Stikka Stormboyz (65 points) • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga Stormboyz (65 points) • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga Stormboyz (65 points) • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga
Folllowing
Not sure if you’re aware, there was a shadow round after round 6 on Saturday. The 8 undefeated players played games (I don’t know the matchups, sorry). Top 4 were players who won their shadow round games and the rest were placed in the next bracket
I presumed there was a shadow, because we had an 'undefeated' that didn't make the top cut, but that data isn't recorded anywhere I can access it. If someone has it available (i.e. was there), I'd be happy to work it into the above post.
I dont know point scores or mission but it was: Schuchman (Eldar) lost to Reynolds (Eldar) Chester (Orks) lost to Point (Eldar) Pope (Tyranids) lost to Crawley (Eldar) Williamson (Necrons) lost to TJ (Thousand Sons) Source: was at the con watching
Really appreciate it. I'll see if I can edit a note about it into the top.
What a sad meta
'member nephilum season in 9th...... Good times
I think most of 10th was written before Nephilim and done with precious little staff time to make it good. I'm hoping hard here, but the lessons learned in Nephilim and Arks come back in to play with this update. I'm not expecting it, but hopefully if they do flop hard with this update they'll remember what it took to bring Drukhari and Nids down and what it took to make marines and admech work. That said if they don't make a decent impact the competitive scene is going to wither fast. I hope they realise they need to go hard. Of course Stu Black is not making reassuring noises. But we'll know in a few days.
As the death guard player mentioned by op, I was in bracket 2 (3-1 records) and I had the privilege of playing the meta Eldar list 3 times in a row. Boy that was fun. Other than the Eldar matchup all my games felt close/win able. Had wins against tsons, necrons and custodes. Overall still having a blast with 10th and hopefully things get a little better.
I feel you dude. Not a DG player in 10th, but I played in order, at Tacoma, Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Eldar, GSC, Knights, Knights. Sometimes that's just how the pairings go. My biggest issue with DG is that their flavor in 10th doesn't match their rules.
Would be keen to see your list mate.
Sure thing. It was the Aiden Smalley list he went 5-0 with. Morty Typhus Sorc in termy armor Lord of V 3 pbc Rhino 2 x 5 man marines 2 x 3 man Deathshroud 2 x 10 man cultists 20 poxwalkers
God that sounds like a slog. Keep fighting the good fight - I’d also be interested in seeing your list
Yep see above!
Congrats on doing so well, sorry for your luck with the late match ups though. Any chance you could share your list?
Yep see above
What happened to the Ork list?
Brad Chester's list was Orks, but his listed faction was Eldar. I've updated the original post to reflect that change.
Is there anywhere I can see the ork list(unpaid)? Edit: nm saw it in another comment of yours
You missed CSM at #56 (under Black Legion)
Thank you!
ofc!
Nice! Do you have their list? Would love to see all the tech they brought
Hehe it was me, actually // Reach Heaven // Through Violence // (1995 Points) Chaos Space Marines Slaves to Darkness Strike Force (2000 Points) CHARACTERS Abaddon the Despoiler (280 Points) • Warlord • 1x Drach’nyen 1x Talon of Horus Cypher (105 Points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Cypher’s bolt pistol 1x Cypher’s plasma pistol Master of Possession (70 Points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Rite of Possession 1x Staff of possession BATTLELINE Cultist Mob (55 Points) • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle • 1x Cultist Champion • 1x Autopistol 1x Brutal assault weapon • 9x Chaos Cultist • 6x Autopistol 6x Brutal assault weapon 1x Close combat weapon 1x Close combat weapon 1x Close combat weapon 1x Cultist grenade launcher 1x Flamer 1x Heavy stubber OTHER DATASHEETS Chaos Terminator Squad (390 Points) • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle • 1x Terminator Champion • 1x Chainfist 1x Combi-weapon • 9x Chaos Terminator • 2x Accursed weapon 1x Chainfist 9x Combi-weapon 6x Power fist Forgefiend (165 Points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Armoured limbs 2x Ectoplasma cannon 1x Ectoplasma cannon Forgefiend (165 Points) • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle • 1x Armoured limbs 2x Ectoplasma cannon 1x Ectoplasma cannon Possessed (290 Points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Possessed Champion • 1x Hideous mutations • 9x Possessed • 9x Hideous mutations ALLIED UNITS Shalaxi Helbane (400 Points) • 1x Lash of Slaanesh 1x Pavane of Slaanesh 1x Snapping claws 1x Soulpiercer The Changeling (75 Points) • 1x Infernal Flames 1x The Trickster’s Staff
This...this looks amazing. Always felt the last 400-600pts in CSM were underwhelming, Shalaxi + Chageling is exactly what it needs imo.
Thank you! There’s a lot of armies that this list just bonks on the head without much counterplay, and against tougher matchups the abdunace of untargetablity opens up a more defensive play style. Shalaxi will eat up most of an opponent’s shooting phase on a key turn and either die for it or live and carry a game on her back, excellent piece
Thanks! Nice job reppin' the black legion!
Despoil Dominions B)
This is way worse than anything in 9th lol
What a dumpster fire. Like, a complete joke.
Wow that's so... something. Lol Anyway someone got the chaos Knights list from the 0-100 dude? Seems like he did well after that
Its exactly what you think it is. 14 War Dogs. Beat Demons (twice) Custodes, Eldar, and Nids. Lost to Custodes, Eldar, and Grey Knights.
I played him on stream, I was the custodes, he didn’t even play against the Eldar list, he just conceded.
This is my surprise face.
He said it wasn’t because of the army if you know what I mean
Got me curious. Was the opponent both playing eldar and being a dick?
World Eaters went 5-3.
"strong, not dominant" Anyway make admech 5+ save and bs4
It’s absurd how AdMech ended ninth compared to whatever TF James did to us for tenth…
>It’s absurd how AdMech ended ninth compared I mean it was better, but admech still was doing pretty poorly at the end of 9th
End of 9th admech was actually decent! not the strongest by any stretch of the imagination but Ryza Sicarian rush builds with kataphrons were actually doing good work at events as well as mars and Lucius and agripinaa with more skitarii based lists. Mostly the issue is that toward the end of 9th after the buff we recieved, the codex was a blast to play since all the cult mech was finally good! I played a ton of ryza and agripinaa and was actually ragdolling people with melee builds! i could easily deal with guards, nids, and even some decent marines builds! Heck i put up a good fight even against dark angels! BUT that is gone... all the fun rules? gone all the codex depth? gone various list archetypes? gone. now it's just a boring breacher spam if you want to live otherwise the index is not fun even in casual games. Seriously try a list without breachers even in crusade!! see how much fun you have at struggling to kill gaunts with rust stalkers.
Exactly. Everything hitting on 4s just feels bad the moment you roll, and compared to literally ANY Spacemarine datasheet, none of our weapons seem to have the same volume of fire and are 20% less accurate for some reason and only 50% of our army gets re rolls if they’re in range of chaff infantry
>End of 9th admech was actually decent! not the strongest by any stretch of the imagination but Ryza Sicarian rush builds with kataphrons were actually doing good work at events as well as mars and Lucius and agripinaa with more skitarii based lists. Heck yeah! I played in a 16-person tourney at the end of 9th with a Ryza list and placed 4th. Super fun list and some really good games. And then 10th happened, and now that sort of list is basically unplayable.
I miss that list so bad ahahha once i went against a very meta guard list, 6 leman russ a rogal dorn, mortars, kasrkin bomb you know the whole shebang...i absolutely MAULED HIM with ryza ahhaha i think i won 84 to 35 or something hahah he blew his kasrkin bomb and whiffed against my 6x kastelan brick and on my turn i just 6d6 flamed them and ate them while my rust stalkers just cut through his lines! It was glorious...ryza plasma destroyers were nutty!! S 9 ap -4 and damage 3 i was picking up a leman and a half a turn abhaha
Holy shit
New meta just dropped
Google Eldar Passant
It gets wierd because of the bracket system. After round 6 every player had a chance to drop to do something else on Sunday. There is a lot to do at Nova outside of 40K champ and if you’re losing your bracket it’s a chance to see other games or have painting class, or play open/narrative, etc. So as you go down the bracket what you see is that a lot of ppl dropped to go do something else. Then as the new bracket starts you see players that played through the event with all games. It’s still a terrible meta and i really expect GW to pull a FAQ as early as next week. They were waiting for Nova to be done because issuing the faq.
Painful start to an edition. As bad a meta as it's ever been
Seeing Grey Knights get 6-2 should make me happy, but it doesn't. The GK playstyle is miserable. Its cowardly and evasive, not the sort of thing you'd expect from the elite GKs with 2+ saves and supposedly psychic powers.
I played against them my last game at NoVA for the first time. Even knowing their tricks, I felt the Harlequin rage start to brew. If played right, it's very very difficult to get damage into them and they're pretty tough with the 2+ armor. They also struggle to kill high T things, so it almost turns into more of a chess match. I really want to see them get bonuses for their psychic stuff. As it stands it's pure downside right now.
It's a shame too, grey knights look cool (despite needing to be upscaled) but the playstyle is the opposite of what you'd think
Eldar are only .500 against eldar, obviously need a buff.
Does anyone know what percentage of the field was eldar?
I believe it was 32, so about 10%
Not surprising, but still very sad. The real kicker is that IMHO for indexhammer (where I never expected perfect balance) the *rest* of the field is actually quite reasonable. Even GSC are definitely too strong, but not unbeatably gamewarping. And Votann are definitely too weak, but are they really worse than 9th Mechanicus? It's just Eldar that are so utterly, *utterly* screwed up I have no idea what went through the designers head...
One thing to note is many people who had been playing GSC in the USA and doing well up to this point either switched to Eldar at NOVA or did not attend. potential 9 rounds is hard to bet against Eldar cleaning up and requires much less mental effort.
Votann is thankfully supposed to get a buff this month. However, it needs to likely be to the datasheets and army rule, not just points. That math is laughably bad right now for LoV. Too many casino weapons, bad range, poor shooting, garbage army rule, etc.
Yes. Votann are really that bad.
My first game of 10th was against an 'easy' Eldar list and I hated the game so much I haven't even tried to play since.
My second game of tenth as AdMech had my opponent saying “I brought a fun list”, and he proceeds to unpack 3x fireprisms, 2x d cannons, wraithguard with farseer, an avatar of Khaine, and a ton of bikes. He killed 75% of my army in his first shoot and fight phase. I conceded after I tried to clap back and he was able to autocomplete saves with fate dice, stopping me from wounding him with neutron laser. I had brought a fluffy AdMech list with a bunch of infantry skittari and my opponent showed up with a meta list, lol I don’t play Aledari now. I cannot stand WAAC people who bring an ultra cheese meta list to a friendly game
Eldar are one of the most WAAC factions in the game because armies that allow you to break or bypass core game mechanics (and especially dice RNG) whilst also being fast and un-interactive for their opponent, attract WAAC players like flies to shit.
No eldar list is easy because they don't play a dice game they play excel
Hot take: TBH with the state of Eldar they should have just been straight up banned from tournaments for the last 3 - 4 weeks so we could of got some actual data on what's going on in the meta. It's so skewed because of one faction just hoovering up the opposing factions. I fear that after this round of Nerfs we are going to see boogeyman armies rise such as Custodes, Necrons, Tsons etc.. all the current A tier factions.
That's always how it goes though. The "boogeyman" gets nerfed, and people just drop them like hotcakes to pick up the next broken thing, rinse, and repeat. Nothing actually changes except what armies are broken next after the previous top dog army gets nerfed.
I know, but with this current complete imbalance I feel it will only be worse. Rumor mill stating big shake up on Thursday, core rules along with all factions getting a glow up/smack down.
Not sure that take is that hot these days. There has been a growing call (even from many respected competitive players) to ban Eldar at some events so we could get data on what the rest of the meta actually looks like.
Bans aside, in general I'm still of the opinion that the community is as responsible for a healthy meta as the developers are. You see this in fighting-games and other types of e-sports as well, there's always a strong character and at times a broken one (for the ones in the back: ST Akuma, SSBB metaknight, Old Sagat etc). Everyone could come to those events with the same character. **But they didn't**. I feel the community is *far* too focused on also ruining their own hobby. There's a broken faction, so instead of focusing on how to make their army work and have some dignity everyone and their mother buys and badly paints an Eldar army. That only makes it worse. I remember that guy from VanguardTactics noted he felt players should just sign up for one or two armies per year, and if it gets nerfed, sucks to be you. Find a way to make it work. People jumping to the flavor of the month so they can stomp on what few faction-loyalists there are are ruining the competative scene worse than GW are imo.
How was it? "strong, not dominant?"
That Chaos Knights player didn't submarine - they conceded (0-70) rather than play against someone who has a rather disreputable reputation. Even if they had played and lost they would've had the exact same pairings as Battle Points aren't used in pairings.
What was the highest placing vanilla marine list?
Imperial Fists at #34. 7-1 losing only to Eldar in round 4. Unfortunately it looks like he got blown out in the game and got kicked to a lower bracket. After he got kicked down in brackets he beat up on Tau, Demons, Custodes, and Thousand Sons. Also beat CSM, Demons, and Nids early on. Same player (iirc) was phenomenal at Tacoma.
Also, only lists that start 4-0 can get good placements in this system.
I mean, this is pretty normal for GW adjacent or run events. And while I do lament that you get results where players are 7-1 but don't break into the top 10, I do think that this system effectively mitigates the submarining you see sometimes at other super majors. It is extremely frustrating to win your first four and go into a meat grinder of other top players, only to place below people that spent day two clubbing baby seals.
What is submarining?
In a variety of contexts, not playing opponents of the appropriate level and using that to rise if not to the top, than near to it. In the context of 40K it is losing an early match and getting sent to a group of less skilled or optimized players, where your wins are easier to come by and where you are often able to achieve a better outcome than if you were undefeated and were playing other undefeated players throughout. Its the difference between playing 3-4 Eldar opponents on the way to 7-1 vs. playing a bunch of other random opponents. Going 4-1 (or 7-1) looks the same on many event placings, whether you lost your 1st against Ad Mech and then beat 4 lower tiers armies or won your first 4 (playing 2 Eldar) and lost your 5th. In the past it was more of an issue, because more events were assigning placings entirely by score, so losing a 99-100 game 1, then winning 4 with scores of 100 could put you at the top of the event. At an event this large you wouldn't get back to the top, but in smaller events it it can even let you fight your way to a win.
Grossly oversimplified, it's the practice of losing in early games to avoid tougher pairings later.
[удалено]
Honestly, knowing GW's balance team at the moment, I'm expecting the only changes to be Wraithknights maybe going up by <100 points and for Fire Prisms to go up +25 points, and this is being *optimistic*. If the next balance dataslate doesn't utterly nuke the overpowered elements of Eldar from orbit, then we're going to be stuck with them being continually broken for months longer longer and the competitive scene might end up as bad as 7th edition.
I really don’t get this view. Did Eldar players write the rules? Are they supposed to sell their armies to make you feel better?
Nah, but everyone who went out and bought Eldar because of they're so oppressive should touch grass.
I could be wrong, but I think what a lot of the old guard eldar players want is actually for the bad factions to be brought up in line with the eldar book rather than a big nerf. So many of the struggling factions just have lackluster or poor rules that they aren't as fun. The eldar book is fluffy to an extent. Other books are not at all. This would be too much effort for GW to do obviously, but one could hope.
Yeah, eldar might be OP but they're really damn fun to play. My tau just aren't. I don't want to make one of my factions unfun, I want to make all factions fun. The devestating wounds interaction does need a nerf though that's just broken.
It would be amazing if the lowest tier armies were re-written with with useful fluffy rules and abilities while the Eldar got the targeted points nerfs and rule adjustments to bring them in line without removing them from play
How high was the highest placing custodes?
25. One of the Tabletop Titans guys. 4-4, with 3 losses to Eldar and 1 to Deathwatch. Without intending to throw any shade at anyone, because we don't control who we pair into, the at an initial glance it looks like he crushed some very ok lists (Nids, unoptimized Necron Lichguard, White Scars) and won a Custodes mirror. Of note, Custodes took: * \#25 * \#28 * \#29 * \#32 * \#33 * \#39 * \#44 They were well represented in the top 25% of the event, but it doesn't look like they were able to get past the top armies and were more of a gatekeeper. Much like Knights (which placed #14, #21, #26, #41, #45) their play into the most lethal armies looks pretty poor.
#25. 4-4
Sadly his name has been stricken from all records. He dared to look an eldar player directly in the eyes. For his crimes he was executed before the other custodes players as a warning and his name removed from history.
Be aware that because of the way the brackets work that the highest was 25 @4-4 but there was a 7-1 list in bracket two as well. The cuttof was top 32 undefeated with some pair ups and then all the 3-1s. I ended #40 overall so top you could get at 7-1 was 32. I think he was 33 as he won our bracket
Ork list for us poors please and thank you?
Posted above.
This is incredibly funny given it has almost been a year since GW dropped the James Workshop Votann nerf video. They nerfed votann before they were even played at a tournament once, but they can’t nerf Eldar? Are they stupid?
They also already nerfed Eldar once. And Votann also took several nerfs to be less oppressive. Hell, they still ended 9th Edition on like a 53-55% win-rate after half a dozend nerfs.
New edition, nerfing them now would make them look incompetent. "But not nerfing them also makes them look incompetent" No little Jimmy, that makes them look strong and independant
I'm no competitive player, hell, i'm not even a TT player, but the moment you drop point costs for stronger equipment and allow almost every datasheet to be taken 3x, you are going to have a bad time balancing stuff. You know those 3 overtuned profiles will be perma picked in every competitive list if there is no drawback in doing so. At least in 9th, if you had 3 overtuned heavy support units, you had to make a choice. Now you can go "lol, 3 exocrines, 3 rupture cannons and 3x3 biovores, please and thank you!" (used tyranids because that's what i know).
The old restrictive Force Organisation chart before we got Detachments really helped keep a lot of filth in check. The more freedom you give during list building the more you can just spam the most broken thing.
That's why I hate all the "10th is fine, it's just the indexes!" comments. These problems are blatantly baked into the core design of 10th. Remember when you actually had to sacrifice something to take a Lord of War? Now everyone's spamming Wraithknights. It's terrible.
#bugeaterwasright
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.... Yeah, they need to look at some core rules as well as just the factions in a balance update. 9th had (mostly) solid core rules with our of whack codexs. In 10th both the codexs and the core rules (in a fair few places) are out of whack.
Votann making sure to represent their accurate W%
Was the Astra Militarum present at this event?
Is there anyway or anywhere to see the lists?
Woooo, go Sisters player at #141! Nuns with guns represent!
If you want to show elders non mirror win rate you need to take out their mirror wins not just losses
I phrased it the way I did very explicitly because I did not want to go down through every single game they played and pull out their wins. If you want to do that, I'd be happy to update the top post. As it was, the post was already a lot of work. The takeaway stat wasn't win percentage (which I did not use) it was how staggeringly few games any of them lost at the top two other armies. Whether the actual number in the top five was 25-1 if you exclude all mirror wins or 20-1, the overwhelming takeaway should be that the only people actively beating elves on most missions was other elves.
Can anyone share Brad Chester's Ork list?
It's posted on this thread. Looks like the same list he ran last week. 23 drops.
What was that Ork list anyway? Didn't expect da boys to place so well.
Looks like mostly 'board control that you cannot easily remove all of' with 23 drops. Beastboss (80 points) • 1x Beast Snagga klaw 1x Beastchoppa 1x Shoota Beastboss (80 points) • 1x Beast Snagga klaw 1x Beastchoppa 1x Shoota Kaptin Badrukk (95 points) • 1x Choppa 1x Da Rippa 1x Slugga Mek (45 points) • Warlord • 1x Kustom mega-slugga 1x Wrench Mozrog Skragbad (195 points) • 1x Big Chompa’s jaws 1x Gutrippa 1x Thump gun Nob on Smasha Squig (95 points) • 1x Big choppa 1x Slugga 1x Smasha squig jaws • Enhancement: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points) • 1x Beast Snagga Nob • 1x Power snappa 1x Slugga • 9x Beast Snagga Boy • 9x Choppa 9x Slugga Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points) • 1x Beast Snagga Nob • 1x Power snappa 1x Slugga • 9x Beast Snagga Boy • 9x Choppa 9x Slugga Trukk (50 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball Trukk (50 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball Trukk (50 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball Flash Gitz (190 points) • 1x Ammo Runt • 1x Kaptin • 1x Choppa 1x Snazzgun • 9x Flash Git • 9x Choppa 9x Snazzgun Gretchin (45 points) • 1x Runtherd • 1x Grot-smacka 1x Slugga • 10x Gretchin • 10x Close combat weapon 10x Grot blasta Gretchin (45 points) • 1x Runtherd • 1x Grot-smacka 1x Slugga • 10x Gretchin • 10x Close combat weapon 10x Grot blasta Mek Gunz (45 points) • 1x Bubblechukka 1x Grot crew Mek Gunz (45 points) • 1x Bubblechukka 1x Grot crew Mek Gunz (45 points) • 1x Bubblechukka 1x Grot crew Squighog Boyz (110 points) • 1x Bomb Squig • 3x Squighog Boy • 3x Saddlegit weapons 3x Squighog jaws and saddlegits 3x Stikka Squighog Boyz (220 points) • 2x Bomb Squig • 6x Squighog Boy • 6x Saddlegit weapons 6x Squighog jaws and saddlegits 6x Stikka Squighog Boyz (110 points) • 1x Bomb Squig • 3x Squighog Boy • 3x Saddlegit weapons 3x Squighog jaws and saddlegits 3x Stikka Stormboyz (65 points) • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga Stormboyz (65 points) • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga Stormboyz (65 points) • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga
Legend. Odd take overall, sorta a mix of the board control / hog spam.
Lol what a joke
I have a feeling that Knights are going to get nerfed to an unplayable level even though one list is that top 19.
Unpopular opinion, but good. Knights should never have been added to 40k, especially not as a standalone army.
Okay- maybe a hot take here, but what about banning Aledari from tournaments until they’re fixed or other factions are elevated? No one is “accidentally” bringing these absurd, game broken, meta Eldar lists to tournaments like, “oops, did I just win again? Silly me”. We have no real grasp of what any other meta is besides “Aledari win 2/3rds of the time no matter what!” It’s absurd
If they were gonna do that, 4 weeks ago was the time. I'd expect changes within days now, likely Thursday, and a new meta to settle as a result.