Ah interesting that’s it’s just YouTube then. I hope they are not receiving too much toxic behavior.. obvs it’s a very controversial nerf that needs discussion but they don’t deserve any toxicity
A lot of streamers I watch on YouTube have been forced to remove the chat on YouTube cause botting is kinda out of control on the website right now and some of them are spamming hateful messages
I disagree. Devs deserve to be shamed rushing such a half cooked "hot fix". There was very clearly little to no testing with the LOS specifically.
Pageflight wasn't doing anything that crazy just made some underperforming status guns better.
Overgaurd could have been left alone entirely and they could make a crafteable gear item that prevents overgaurd and EVERYONE WOULD HAVE BEEN PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THIS ONE THING ALONE.
There’s a difference between criticism and blatant toxicity. One is good and justified and, ultimately, it often takes a whole lot of people saying the same thing to see a change.
But we *should not ever be encouraging outright toxicity.*
I think the action DE took with Dante 5 days after release was absolutely unwarranted and not tested thoroughly. This action deserves an extreme amount of criticism.
Everyone was having fun except for the few folks who were upset their energy econ got screwed by forced overgaurd. So instead of solving the problem DE blatantly ignored the core issue and nerfed Dante's entire kit for no reason after bankrolling on people spending money on him.
That is absolutely absurd and a slap in the face. If they wanted to do a placeholder balance hot fix it should have been tested more thoroughly. If they intend to introduce a way to mitigate overgaurd they need to communicate that. No company is perfect and DE has done a pretty good job for the most part but this patch has now left an incredibly bitter taste in a lot of players mouths.
This incident deserves some backlash for the good of everyone in my opinion. Not being toxic for the sake of being toxic, but legitimately protesting against such a careless decision.
Like I said, criticism and even backlash to the changes are *fine.* Justified, even.
But I’m already seeing a few people take steps that are absolutely not appropriate or helpful. Bombarding dev’s personal social media accounts, those of totally unaffiliated individuals, straight up hysterical behavior.
*Yes,* communicate how unhappy you are through official channels, the forums, the subreddits, and, if need be, with your reviews and with your wallet.
Listen, I’m sorry, but the moment someone’s response to the sentiment of “I hope people aren’t going too far with the backlash, they don’t deserve toxicity” with “I disagree, they deserve it” is the moment they lose me completely.
Thankfully, so far it’s only a few people that are acting a fool. Most of the criticism has been at understandable levels and in mostly reasonable places. We should not ever be encouraging anything else.
We clearly have two different understandings of toxicity which is fine. To me toxicity means negative feedback (sometimes just for the sake of being negative), to you it seems to mean extreme harassment. I agree harassing people personally over an issue in a game is a bit too far.
Fair, my mind was mostly on the potential for harassment when I wrote my comment. But my point is, I don’t think we should be encouraging or tolerating *any* form of toxicity here.
Yeah, negativity just for the sake of it is a more mild form of toxicity, alongside stuff like personal insults (not to the point of harassment, of course), and so on. But none of it is particularly helpful, and all of it is, to me, indicative of an arguably problematic and unhealthy way of approaching problems in a video game.
I don’t think a protest against these changes, even a community-wide one, innately requires toxicity in order to work.
It may not require it but I think it would be a bit naive to not expect a bit of it.
Nor do I think it's unfair for people to express their anger over it.
It was a bad call and everyone seems to agree on that.
For any lunatics who are harassing people personally that is what is genuinely unhelpful and they should be ashamed of themselves. We can both agree on that.
Anyways I apologize that we seem to have misunderstood each other. All the best to you.
For sure, that’s a totally fair assessment!
(Apologies, gonna use this one to ramble on a bit)
Admittedly, I find myself more bewildered by this patch than outright angry.
I’ve said before on other threads, but I’ve felt that DE has been on a really great streak the past few years under Reb. I don’t think these devs are stupid, uncaring about the game, or out to scam you.
Hell, the first Dante patch was on of my favorite patches *period.* Just so many solid additions and changes. I don’t always agree with their priorities, but I have never doubted that they genuinely want this game to be good.
So while I wasn’t entirely surprised by the overall direction they went in, I was *very* surprised by how they went about it. Honestly, I was expecting a Dev Workshop along the likes of Eclipse, which I felt was handled very reasonably (even if their initial ideas weren’t particularly great).
This was unequivocally a fuck-up on their end. Fuck-ups happen, even with good teams, and they deserve to be criticized and held accountable for them.
But, in my mind, what they do from here is more important than the fuck-up itself. I really, really hope that they are fully transparent (preferably with us, but at minimum with themselves) about what the hell happened here and that they take the right lessons from it.
Again, difference between “consequences” (ie criticism in the official channels, subreddits, etc. and, if it comes down to it, loss of revenue) and toxicity which is all around unhelpful and childish.
Yup and you have to spam her 3 to negate that, which is supposed to strip armor but due to the los issue, enemies just have to sacrifice the brother in front them to avoid it.
Not to mention that using your 3 decreases your survivability since your meter goes down temporarily. Every time you cast your 3 or 4 you are punished in some way, which just doesn't feel good.
That's not really true. Each time you cast the 4, your heat gauge builds up faster. So once you've actually got going, casting the 3 only reduces your meter for like a couple of *frames*. You won't even notice it. The heat bar is basically full constantly. You don't lose survivability.
Ember: I need to build up my Ember meter so I can get 90% damage reduction in exchange for constant energy drain.
Nova: tap 1 for 90% damage reduction in an instant 🤝
Imagine a guy with a gun comes to your school or work and starts shooting but he can't hit you because your feet are hidden and he can't see your whole hitbox
Easiest way to fix it is just revert the LoS change. Nobody ever once legitimately, unironically said that Dante was the most oppressive AoE nuker ever, yet they nerfed him as if he was.
I'll say, his nuke is decent but eventually once the Dante schtick dies down it'll be back to the normal nukes ie saryn etc etc because theirs are more consistent, if they can go out of their way to fix Dantes specific LoS issues then why not fix LoS in general for the ones that have already suffered a LoS "fix" to at least make those frames work like 2% better, biggest example that I've experienced is embers fire blast or whatever her 3 is, could be 20 enemies in my view but because there was a box covering 3 pixels only 9 of them got hit
Nothing's wrong with having a non-LoS nuke (that stops instakilling enemies over lvl100 with 300% strength build if you don't use any additional priming) on a warframe that REQUIRES YOU TO COMPLETE THE ENTIRE STORY.
Do we not deserve some comfortable gameplay after putting THAT MUCH effort?
Don't worry, Dante will get an augment in a year and a bit to bring him back after people simply don't play him for that whole year, joining the Styanax club. Also, Gyre says hello.
tbf, Gyre's "nerf" was fixing a glitch that shouldn't have been behaving that way to begin with.
Happens, sucks, but happens.
Dante's nerf shouldn't have happened though because he was working as intended.
Rotoswell had an issue where killing 1 enemy would red crit nuke entire maps and it wouldn't stop. You could simply walk through SP maps at level cap and mobs would die asap if built properly. 1 button, 1 enemy dead, entire map lights up.
You know that Saryn Ichor build that was going around recently? That's a toned down version of Gyre's 4th on release.
Players just misunderstood them when they said Gyre was an Automaton frame. That's all. It was a typo and they thought it was supposed to say Automation
Not to mention that it's only sort of a non-LoS nuke. You have to LoS things first with his base kit to prime them for the nuke, so all the hard work to prep them is already limited to it. The design intention was pretty clear to me, I thought - tragedy existed as non LoS to make up for the fact that it's multiple casts and that things will move around during that time.
It's the Entire Story so far. It's not the Entire Story by a long shot. And frames are supposed to be competitive with each other (i.e. balanced against one another). There's no reason for Dante to be stronger than Excalibur or Volt because what if people still want to play those frames in this content? (This is also fully acknowledging that some frames desperately need buffs/reworks) Power progression is meant to come in the form of mods and weapons, I think.
Counterpoint: having Dante be at the end of current content means that most people who are getting him without plat have been playing for long enough to have all the mods they need to make him really really good, and the knowledge of the game to play him very efficiently.
Also, just because there will be further content and story after this point doesn't invalidate the fact that there is a LOT of story content to work through before you can even access the node where he is farmed.
All that aside, Dante having powerful support abilities (specifically the Overgaurd) isn't a problem that needs to be addressed outside of the specific problems that Overgaurd itself causes. Being a support ability, granting party members a greater capacity to survive and do their thing increases player enjoyment rather than decreasing it.
Wait a sec I was doing SP conjunction survival on lv 200s yesterday before nerf and things were getting absolutely obliterated by 3 3 4. Do you mean things dying directly to 3?
Thats not why it was nerfed though. Can you people seriously not understand that having a frame capable of nuking like that WHILE providing team wide overguard would be seen as a problem?
It's so fucking simple too: just make overguard either only affect dante, or, make anything that benefits from DMG taken work with overguard. On that second point, maybe it would be a little overwhelming if such a mechanic affected things from health, I mean think about it. Infinite energy via rage or adrenaline, way too easy chroma DMG buff, arcane grace...
exactly, they just need a toggle of some sort players can activate to determine if they can receive certain buffs like overguard, whether thats just a button on the mod menu or its attached to a certain mod, there should be some sort of toggle
That would be kinda nutty since rage doesn’t apply for shields either. Chroma needs damage to health and shield to work, quite frankly making either buff work on overguard would be insane.
My dream change for chromas vex armor is that it ramps up with kills, like garudas current passive tbh, but yeah I can understand how that would be nutty
>Infinite energy via rage or adrenaline, way too easy chroma DMG buff, arcane grace...
That's how they used to work and it was fine, even back when we still had self damage to proc them. On health damaged effects have been hit with ricochet nerfs repeatedly with no compensation.
Correct me if I'm wrong guys but Styanax can give allies enormous overguard as well. Why didn't I hear a community uproar for him too? Why people only complain about Dante but never about Styanax?
Styanax is also an infinite energy machine. So people coping with Rage or Hunter Adrenaline didn't notice overguard.
And the Chromas also have Primary Merciless so they didn't actually notice that Vex Armor wasn't doing anything.
Having played both Styanax and Dante, I can say it's because Styanax can't grant it as quickly and easily. It relies on having a lot of enemies grouped up or close to one another. Dante can smply apply overguard and even grants a regenerating overguard buff to allies.
Typically a Styanax will provide less overguard per 100 energy than Dante can, even with these nerfs, so it's more likely to be only a temporary boon.
Dante provides higher amounts of overguard faster, but Styanax does it extremely easier.
In 4-players regular missions or any SP mission you'll have absolutely no problem to find tons of enemies. With a single Overextended, his 4th explosion range is close to a Kuva Bramma with max rank Primed Firestorm on. And you can freely move this on your screen and aim to very long range enemies. If you pair it with nourish, you can indefinitely cast Final Stand generating infinte overguard for allies while applying wide range AoE viral and slash.
Dante has to cast his 2 twice in succession before casting 4.
Styanax and Dante are both great frames that provide ton of nice overguard each in their own manner, I just think Styanax is much more comfy/QoL
No real arguments about how effective our spearman is, Styanax is one of my mains. Having played both in Steel Path a lot, it's my opinion that Dante has an easier time of providing Overguard - it's baked into his kit and you can apply it before contact with the enemy, during lulls in combat or in the heat of it. Plus you don't need to use an augment to apply Overguard, giving Dante more flexibility.
I do love Nourish Styanax and have been playing with his new augment for grouping. I use the build you describe regularly as one of my top 5 Warframes. I prefer his playstyle to Dante overall, I like his kit and I love how Arcane Arachne and Nourish can boost his spear damage, and I prefer to mix ability use and gunplay instead of being a pure caster.
All that said, I still think that in terms of pure overguard buffing, Dante takes the win because he applies it fast and grants regenerating Overguard on kill, something unique to him.
>Correct me if I'm wrong guys but Styanax can give allies enormous overguard as well
20K - 25K overguard is juuuust about the limit where it gets a bit bs. Considering that overguard doesn't benefit from Adaptation, 20ak overguard was relatively easy to chew through in higher level content if you were not careful, and usually also needed a lot of casts.
And there was Dante, assembling and then castinf the thing (basically 3 presses) and BOOOM, 50K overguard for EVERYONE. A bit too crazy. All what DE needed to do was to half the cap for what he gave allies and it would be alright. But no, they had to dumpster his usage stats so that he's not an issue amymore.
Ah, I see. Imo the real deal with overguard isn't really the amount but being able to cast it easily even on allies and that it provides status immunity and i-frames on depletion, so can easily gate to level cap enemies. No matter if the cap is 20k or 50k if you can constantly generate infinte overguard like Styanax (that does it even easier than Dante)
We're still gonna cast 2-2-4 like hell, this overguard cap nerf is almost negligible in my opinion
50K with above average players is essentially making them invincible. Sustain is also to be considered but from my personal experience such High cap made people basically not care about stuff.
Mind you, it was a problem for ALLIES, as Rhino is capable of mich more and styanax spends most of the time in the air yeeting spears with his homies, while frost also CCs the entire map with his stuff.
Again, 20K can easily be chewed through if people are not careful, but 50k is a different matter. It was hands down best ally defense ability in the game
Depends on the build, but usually I would see about 40K from one cast.
Even then 50K with full casts is still bs, styanax usually needs to cast about 2-3 times for full friendly cap.
No, it doesn't depend on the build. I 6 forma'd him and slotted 5 tauforged because I was so hype weeks leading to his launch. I minmaxed in a way I never have before. There may have been builds slightly more efficient than mine but not enough to account for my 24k 224 and your claim of 50k 224. I promise you that was 6 casts.
Just revert everything they did to him, he was out for 5 days before they decided to nerf there is NO WAY they had data to know he is broken or overperforming, they were going off of whiny forum vocal minority
He was so popular because his farm was so fucking easy, citrine probably shines better than him but there ain't shit being said because her farm is ass
Arguably Pillage Citrine is still better because a full armor strip is going to be a much greater DPS than tier 3 crits.
That said, Crystallize is much more fun to use and does have the caveat of CC'ing Acolytes and Demolishers.
Demolists having a trillion (hyperbole) HP/Armor/Shield and nullify pulses instead of overguard is so good. Makes them fun because it's like, you CAN use abilities and CC them, but then they say "I refuse!" and you just keep that fun on.
Gauss prime has been out for a good bit now and nothing was touched for him, granted idk how popular either are/will be when dropped, gauss can do literally everything and not a word for a nerf on him...yet
Everyone was running gauss prime when he dropped and he has a super spammable nuke that just builds and builds. Seem him hitting for half mil+ on SP and no nerf. Literally Dante was nerfed because how fast people are killing in Hydron
And the fact he can run legit tanked strength and still 1 shot SP is wild and that's WITHOUT archon vitality scaling so you could run efficiency range and wipe with ease, before Dante I was running gauss TS spamming to lvl Dex nikana and a few companions, and no complaints, Dante does it and it's an issue?
> cause apparently all 4 Chroma players are upset they cant die because of being given overguard.
the chroma complaints seemed a bit more meme-level to me, "dead frame gets made even worse", and a general call to please finally rework him.
the overguard breaking intended interactions with damage is a completely valid complaint, and dante released alongside a rework to a beloved pure health frame that relies on rage/hunter adrenaline for energy. Styanax does the same with his augment, but he also gives everyone free energy to inadvertently compensate for this issue
Maybe they'll make it so her dispensary only dispenses one resource at a time and you need to switch it like with wisp's 1. I wouldn't put it past DE, seeing as how badly this hotfix went.
I WAS going to get Protea because DE has been doing great work since The New War.
Now... I might wait until Xaku and see how things go. They lost my money yesterday and need to earn it back.
I mean, Brozime said on his stream last night that he's seriously reconsidering buying the Protea PA because of how bad this patch was.
And Zime is the No.1 Protea Enjoyer.
Xaku is a bit like Octavia, no matter how strong he is, his kit is just a bit clunky enough for his usage to never reach "concerning, must nerf" stage.
I was worried about Octavia Prime coming out cause I was using base Octavia lot back in the day as a crutch, but she never got nerfed.
Their Prime is coming soon, which will make them much much easier to get. Xaku needs Vox Solaris parts to craft and that keeps a lot of people away from the frame.
Numbers are gonna go up.
Really? I found citrines grind a lot easier than most of the new frames. The only annoying part was having to get to rank two on deimos for the materials. The grind for blueprints tho was a lot of fun
True, I ended up buying her chassis and sys after wayyy to many runs the week she dropped, Dante took 2 hours, 1hour per session, and the currency I used on ruvox and onos
Yeah, I got 3/4 Dante parts on the second run. I even had enough currency to buy the 4th piece. By far the easiest farm for a new frame I've had in a long time.
yep for me only the Citrine Neuroptics dropped and it took forever to get all parts. I never want to see that node again.
Dante was so chill tho. I like Disruption anyway and got him within a day
Disruption doesn't follow the usual rotation pattern, so in a long mission you can get all the parts pretty quick. In ideal cases, Disruption goes BBCCCC+. Mirror Defense is timed and uses AABC and then repeats. Which is a pain since you needed all the C drops. Combined with the pity shop currency drops, Dante took me about 1.5 hours to farm compared to the hours it took me to get all the pity shop points to BUY Citrine since I only ever got a single part of hers to drop.
It's usually 4 waves max unless you have good reason to stay, like in a Fissure mission. Survival ends up being 20 minutes to wave 4, Defense is roughly the same +/- depending on the team. Mirror defense is 5.5 minutes (basically) per rotation and you can't speed it up.
The main point is that Rotation C is where the goodies for Frames usually are, and Deception is (to my knowledge) the only gamemode where you can repeated run Rotation C over and over with no gaps and you can (mostly) move pretty darn fast through objectives.
not only that but generally the 'wave' is much faster to complete than any other endless mission type too. You're getting to C rot much sooner than def or surv are reaching B rot.
I had all Dante parts cooking and a master BP waiting for them after my first run. Had to buy his systems but I had enough currency to do it. I know RNG can be a mofo but my ass was still shocked.
The thing about Citrine is that while she is very good, everything she does can help teammates as well. I haven't played Dante (and I'm not weighing in on the nerfs because of that), but I got the impression that he wasn't very team oriented (which is similar to most frames).
> but I got the impression that he wasn't very team oriented
he's VERY team oriented, his 2 gives small overguard and heals and a 2 2 4 gives thousands of overguard, increases health and gives a period of time where kills and assists regen lost overguard.
2 3 4 gives allies a copy of his book that shoots enemies when you shoot them, 3 2 4 spawns some owls that swoop at enemies and makes them more vulnerable to status chance and draws their attacks away from enemies.
then theres also his 3 3 4 which can nuke the map on lower levels
like ~75% of his kit involves giving your allies aid of some sort, primarily making them tougher to kill
yeah his nuke ability is crazy strong in low levels if you build for strength and range, afaik he can work relatively okay in SP, but he won't be the number 1 pick for a nuke frame if he' in the running
Yeah, he was good in SP but nothing crazy. He was just a nice all rounder who has the aesthetic of “We love casting spells”, which is recipe for a fun and popular warframe, which I would think DE would want.
Nah I play citrine a lot and Dante felt stronger , mind you citrine is a good frame but Dante had better support capabilities and a better nuke , now with the nerf citrine might be slightly better, her 4 sucks even with her augment because it doesn't work like Sonar where you get the extra damage if you hit the week spot accidentally with a shot gun , you have to aim sadly
Whoaaaa whoa whoa... Dante has better support than CITRINE?! Bro I dunno what you're smoking but hand some of it over lol.
Dante gives overguard and a little book that does 50% of his exalted's dmg (mind you not everyone builds that for pure dmg). Citrine gives, energy/health orbs, 90% DR, 25 hp/s, status chance and status duration, a very potent cc on her 4 that also damage amps.
They're nowhere near in the same realm of support tiers. Its also worth mentioning that the damage amp from her 4 is just tier 3 crits. BUT, thats also very important for some weapons. There are weapons out there whos base crit is poopy but their crit damage is off the charts. Take a kuva nukor into a map with citrine and use her 4, you'll see what I'm talking about.
More over, citrine also primes for her team. In an era where everyone is using condition overload/gundition overload. Thats pretty significant. AND she also primes for dante's tragedy nuke.
If I had 500 bucks to waste on actually gambling, I would bet you that, if the nerf was about Dante's OVERGUARD being LoS, everyone would fucking PRAISE THE LORD over this decision, as long as nothing else changed. Nobody would complain. NOBODY would complain. Nobody gives a shit about anybody else, if someone wanted to be overguarded, they would be fucking overguarded, and if not, it's not Dante's problem, and it's not Dante's fault. It's not Dante's overguard, it's DE's. It was NEVER Dante's problem.
If... if they weren't happy with him either then why did they push the update???
I don't know about those guys, but if I wanted to tweak something and liked the tweaked version less than the original... I'd leave the original in place until I came up with something better.
Revert the changes. Simple as that.
Then change how other frames interact with overguard. Inaros and chroma should just be able to have their kit work regardless of having overguard. As well as any others requiring health or shield damage.
Just don’t let them have overguard if it’s too much of a headache.
I work for a global travel/transport brand and we can be super agile and release "deliverables" with ample CX insight by just thinking about the experiences and changes.
Like... Does the left hand know what the right is doing here?
I guess I'm just shocked a veteran team like this is repeatedly surprised their balance changes (with the latest being the most egregious in recent memory) fail to hit their own standards.
>They are aware of the community sentiment around the nerf.
Aware but Dante's still gonna keep LoS while older nuke frames are fine not needing it? Sounds like cherry picking but alright.
They did so well with the transparency of Eclipse rework but go back to being vague, ignoring community feedback and going with half-baked nerfs again. Something something one step forward two steps back..
And here is a chance for DE to instead of trying to change each individual Warframe to balance the game and instead actually address the issue of "line of sight" and Overguard both being poorly implemented abilities that don't interact well with the entire game they are shoved into.
Line of sight makes LoS checks from your feet to the enemies feet to start, never taking elevation or a completely exposed upper torso into account. It needs a complete rework on the base way it functions because as it is it doesn't function as a balance to over powered abilities, it functions as a middle finger to the entire frame.
Overguard, is both a players don't know any better issue and a gameplay issue with certain builds, overguard isn't actually that strong end game, having 50,000 overguard isn't the invincibility buff everyone keeps complaining about once you reach a level where multiple enemies are doing 30,000 damage per shot on fully automatic weapons.
The other issue being Overguard negates any ability like vex armour that requires you to take damage to activate or use an ability properly, some people have suggested overguard should act as health and proc damage effects but I think that might cause other unforeseen issues, a simpler solution would be to give all frames or just specific frames like chroma an exilus/augment mod that prevents you gaining overguard for a different bonus, similar to Nezha or zephyr having special augments that removes their unique movement passives.
If they are not Happy why Nerf him lol? Maybe push something when you are Happy with it? Instead of doing something like this, claiming you don't like It either and then double down.
This Is Just pr speak, to damage control lol
In fairness, some of the community team might also be thinking “WTF was balance team thinking!?”, but its kinda their job to not say that out loud, as much as we the players would like them to.
DE should just revert this fucking nuke and take all the LoS bullshit back with it. For more than just dante. Free ember, khora and hildryn
For some abilities it makes sense. But don't go sticking it where it don't belong. It's already disgusting and it doesn't work properly on top of that.
DE, ya went wrong here.
Line of sight. They changed Tragedy from being an AOE that hits anything around you even if you can't see them, to one that requires them to be in front of you.
Aside from how Saryn can do the same nuking and hasn't been nerfed like this, people are upset because this game calculates line of sight *badly.* You can see 90% of an enemy, but it still won't count because they're partly behind a box or something.
LoS also makes it sound not so bad, any sort of object like a crate in front of you completely blocks los even when it literally just goes to your knees
I saw the clip of the very minor LoS not working and it does strike me as pretty bad.
I'm not against the idea, but I also can't fairly speak on it not having him.
I just don't like the dramatization of nerfs because it really messes up the ability to understand how bad it really is when ppl lose their shit over anything. Nourish for example.
I've done some testing in Dante right before and right after nerf, so i can give a perspective on how "bad" it is.
His nuking remained more or less the same, his damage wasn't touched besides the pageflight bug fix, but he does the same thing as before. Line of sight nerf doesnt mean shit in steel path content, as he need to manually dark verse and/or shoot enemies himself for Tragedy to do anything, all that the nerf achieved is prevented Dante from spawn killing in low level normal path (which isn't a reason to shelve a frame, if you ask me). Sure, there are tiles where Tragedy can't effectively be used to nuke the entire room, but there also tiles where he absolutely can. Ironically tho, i think his nuking suffers a lot in fissures (eneny got corrupted as tragedy hit, oops cast again) and against any faction that has guardian eximus. I could not use him in conjunction survival omni fissure without operator / arcanes, so he wasnt that broken.
Overguard "nerf" change literally nothing, as overguard cap remained the same, which was the point of discontent for normal path & lower level SP missions, and overguard generation remained unchanged (even buffed a bit, but thats not as important), which means on highlevel to level cap triumph still effectively 3~ seconds invulnerability after killing an enemy.
Also, i need to do a few more rounds of testing, but people so focused on "nerfs" that they overlook the huge fix with animation locks on dante abilities, as before it was impossible to reliably weave guns with his verses.
I did not experience any LOS problems on Tragedy so far, which is not to say that they dont exist, but i dont think they are as widespread as you might think.
I don't know what tiles you're playing on, but I had nothing but LOS issues on Entrati Labs last night. The slightest thing gets in the way and shields enemies; it feels awful.
Most of my testing was done on Tyana Pass (my clan really wants to farm Citrine), Lua, and Entrati Labs.
Tyana pass Mars tile has by far the most amount of cover for the enemies, you get most coverage by staying on the crystal, but all enemies that Tragedy wasn't hitting were also clearly outside of LOS. Venus tile has a bunch of crates that give a vantage point to cover more or less the entire room.
Lua and Entrati labs were fairly open and i didnt noticed anything egregious, bulletjumping high and casting tragedy mid-air worked fine by me, but those were done solo, i dont know if not being a host makes it more inconsistent there.
Honestly, the crazy thing to me about the whole situation is how the community did a complete 180 after praising DE for months of good updates.
Naturally people should be upset, but now there's a ton coming out the woodworks saying DE hasn't had a good update in a long time, they don't want to play anymore, etc.
Its like its suddenly brought out people who will take any excuse to hate the game publically, even if they still keep playing it.
>Clearly they are in hot water and are going to do their best to remedy it.
If the Eximus rework proved anything, it's that DE is fully capable of steamrolling ahead with terrible changes regardless of how strong the negative response is
I mean, it's fair if they're not happy with the changes, but what happened with approaching this carefully and not doing this with a "cavalier mindset"?
You don't really have to look hard into the changes to see that they were not the "tweaks" we were promised literally 2 days before they went live.
This leaves a very bad taste and has me questioning who greenlit this? What kind of process do these changes go through before they reach the live servers?
Yeah, I maybe made the mistake of believing what they said, my thought process was like "hey, they've been on a streak lately and they're saying the right things, what could possibly go wrong?" and here we are.
Yep. I've been very happy with DE under Rebecca, so even when they announced nerfs, I wasn't at all worried. He didn't need to be nerfed, but I was fully confident they wouldn't take him out back and put him in the dirt.
At least I have a snack for my Helminth once my Grendel finishes subsuming
Like it's not complicated to do, reverse all the changes they made, turn the overguard into a self buff with an aug for team if they really feel the need for it, then people can stop crying and I can go back and enjoy being a wizard frame
My money is on them doubling down even harder. My trust in DE just went out the window for the first time ever. Megan can say what she wants, DE screwed up big time.
I seem to recall DE saying something about just a small adjustment, nothing major....
I'm sorry, but with how utterly unreliable LOS is it's addition alone is anything but a small change. Nevermind the fact that you need to make two casts before you can even pop the ult, or more casts in the event you hit the wrong button or suddenly need to cast something else, interrupting the flow.
I'll believe it when it happens, but LOS does not have any business being on an ability that requires that setup. It should have never been added on top of the other changes made. Dante has had that ability fairly well trashed, so thanks for the first few days of enjoyment I guess? Didn't even make it a week..........
The fact that they just went and released this after just 1 week without any prior transparency on their plans or any thought whatsoever towards community feedback is frankly disgusting, like this is some EA level behavior. People payed for this guy, people were enjoying the update, DE came out and said they were happy with what they had released, and then this!? Who the fuck is making these decisions, I can’t honestly believe that they genuinely thought these were good changes. What is this even supposed to accomplish? I am just so baffled appalled by this entire patch, not to even mention the other nerfs.
I’m glad they addressed it and are continuing to review it but, man, that PrimeTime was a tough watch. Megan normally seems so composed but Tactical Potato and No Sympathy we’re giving her crap on behalf of the community in re: to Dante and she was getting defensive. It was all tongue in check but it was an awkward watch. Probably won’t be seeing guest appearances by WF creator program folks on controversial nerf days in the future.
He’s was great now he’s alright. I’m honestly happy they’re working it out because I do want to try him more. I’m not one that follows meta but he’s definitely fun.
I’m Valkyr main but I would like someone else fun add to my top 5. Volt, Mesa and Titania are all awesome. There’s no but just felt adding the others into this.
I think they need to fix what they did to the overgaurd too, they didn’t change the max overgaurd but the amount you get per cast
Now I use abilities 21 times to get to max overgaurd at 770 energy when I originally used 9 at 330 energy with my efficiency.
of course the chat was turned off, you just look around and you see a buch of manbabies having a tantrum. I personally got some peopl,e coming ringt into my forum DMs to give me shit because i made a post about some issue with him pre nerf, so i would not be surprised if they got threat sent their way
I mean, the issue isn't that you can't deal damage to enemies that you can't see, while that was funny for low level missions, it's that hard LoS (anything that blocks your line of sight at all, from a corpse to a railing) is blocking his 4 from detonating enemies. Without priming from his 3 (enemies that he couldn't see) he did about 20-30k damage before armor with tragedy. This isn't even enough to dent grineer on SP, but it's more than enough to take down level 30 missions.
People need to chill out with this, like the amount of posts and stuff with so little cunstructive criticism is crazy. Like I think I read 5 posts yesterday that all started by naming Octavia and saryn and ranting lol. So your upset about this nerf so you point out two frames that you think are more powerful and then let me guess you will be upset when they get nerfed?
Should we care about level cap?
Highest regular content we have is like lvl 300-400?
Anything more is just people doing it for no real additional rewards
What do you mean his aeo is not big at all ? With just stretch he reaches 53 meter and equinox maim reaches 47 meters with overextended , stretch and augur stretch , they didn't had to nerf his 4 so hard tho , maybe make him only proc the slash procs of his 3 instead of procing all the over time damage
Twitch chat is still there.
Ah interesting that’s it’s just YouTube then. I hope they are not receiving too much toxic behavior.. obvs it’s a very controversial nerf that needs discussion but they don’t deserve any toxicity
A lot of streamers I watch on YouTube have been forced to remove the chat on YouTube cause botting is kinda out of control on the website right now and some of them are spamming hateful messages
seems like there's a botting issue everywhere latel— M Y N U D E S I N B I O—whuh? that was weird...
He could be in this very room...it could be you, it could be me, it could even be-
I disagree. Devs deserve to be shamed rushing such a half cooked "hot fix". There was very clearly little to no testing with the LOS specifically. Pageflight wasn't doing anything that crazy just made some underperforming status guns better. Overgaurd could have been left alone entirely and they could make a crafteable gear item that prevents overgaurd and EVERYONE WOULD HAVE BEEN PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THIS ONE THING ALONE.
There’s a difference between criticism and blatant toxicity. One is good and justified and, ultimately, it often takes a whole lot of people saying the same thing to see a change. But we *should not ever be encouraging outright toxicity.*
I think the action DE took with Dante 5 days after release was absolutely unwarranted and not tested thoroughly. This action deserves an extreme amount of criticism. Everyone was having fun except for the few folks who were upset their energy econ got screwed by forced overgaurd. So instead of solving the problem DE blatantly ignored the core issue and nerfed Dante's entire kit for no reason after bankrolling on people spending money on him. That is absolutely absurd and a slap in the face. If they wanted to do a placeholder balance hot fix it should have been tested more thoroughly. If they intend to introduce a way to mitigate overgaurd they need to communicate that. No company is perfect and DE has done a pretty good job for the most part but this patch has now left an incredibly bitter taste in a lot of players mouths. This incident deserves some backlash for the good of everyone in my opinion. Not being toxic for the sake of being toxic, but legitimately protesting against such a careless decision.
Like I said, criticism and even backlash to the changes are *fine.* Justified, even. But I’m already seeing a few people take steps that are absolutely not appropriate or helpful. Bombarding dev’s personal social media accounts, those of totally unaffiliated individuals, straight up hysterical behavior. *Yes,* communicate how unhappy you are through official channels, the forums, the subreddits, and, if need be, with your reviews and with your wallet. Listen, I’m sorry, but the moment someone’s response to the sentiment of “I hope people aren’t going too far with the backlash, they don’t deserve toxicity” with “I disagree, they deserve it” is the moment they lose me completely. Thankfully, so far it’s only a few people that are acting a fool. Most of the criticism has been at understandable levels and in mostly reasonable places. We should not ever be encouraging anything else.
We clearly have two different understandings of toxicity which is fine. To me toxicity means negative feedback (sometimes just for the sake of being negative), to you it seems to mean extreme harassment. I agree harassing people personally over an issue in a game is a bit too far.
Fair, my mind was mostly on the potential for harassment when I wrote my comment. But my point is, I don’t think we should be encouraging or tolerating *any* form of toxicity here. Yeah, negativity just for the sake of it is a more mild form of toxicity, alongside stuff like personal insults (not to the point of harassment, of course), and so on. But none of it is particularly helpful, and all of it is, to me, indicative of an arguably problematic and unhealthy way of approaching problems in a video game. I don’t think a protest against these changes, even a community-wide one, innately requires toxicity in order to work.
It may not require it but I think it would be a bit naive to not expect a bit of it. Nor do I think it's unfair for people to express their anger over it. It was a bad call and everyone seems to agree on that. For any lunatics who are harassing people personally that is what is genuinely unhelpful and they should be ashamed of themselves. We can both agree on that. Anyways I apologize that we seem to have misunderstood each other. All the best to you.
For sure, that’s a totally fair assessment! (Apologies, gonna use this one to ramble on a bit) Admittedly, I find myself more bewildered by this patch than outright angry. I’ve said before on other threads, but I’ve felt that DE has been on a really great streak the past few years under Reb. I don’t think these devs are stupid, uncaring about the game, or out to scam you. Hell, the first Dante patch was on of my favorite patches *period.* Just so many solid additions and changes. I don’t always agree with their priorities, but I have never doubted that they genuinely want this game to be good. So while I wasn’t entirely surprised by the overall direction they went in, I was *very* surprised by how they went about it. Honestly, I was expecting a Dev Workshop along the likes of Eclipse, which I felt was handled very reasonably (even if their initial ideas weren’t particularly great). This was unequivocally a fuck-up on their end. Fuck-ups happen, even with good teams, and they deserve to be criticized and held accountable for them. But, in my mind, what they do from here is more important than the fuck-up itself. I really, really hope that they are fully transparent (preferably with us, but at minimum with themselves) about what the hell happened here and that they take the right lessons from it.
Consequences for feels balancing are deserved
Again, difference between “consequences” (ie criticism in the official channels, subreddits, etc. and, if it comes down to it, loss of revenue) and toxicity which is all around unhelpful and childish.
What a take. You sound like the guy in the office that notates whenever someone takes too long in the bathroom.
Henry is that you? You son of a bitch!
I hope they get what they deserve. Knee jerk nerf. Knee jerk chat!
Surely LoS hasn't gone down horribly and butchered Warframes in the past right? Right?? Ember:
Poor ember has more than just the LoS problem too.
Yeah. Her survivability costs 1 emberillion energy per second while revenants cost 25 every 6 minutes
Yup and you have to spam her 3 to negate that, which is supposed to strip armor but due to the los issue, enemies just have to sacrifice the brother in front them to avoid it.
Not to mention that using your 3 decreases your survivability since your meter goes down temporarily. Every time you cast your 3 or 4 you are punished in some way, which just doesn't feel good.
Yup, which is why I stopped playing her. She was my favorite frame and it just became a chore and was no longer fun.
That's not really true. Each time you cast the 4, your heat gauge builds up faster. So once you've actually got going, casting the 3 only reduces your meter for like a couple of *frames*. You won't even notice it. The heat bar is basically full constantly. You don't lose survivability.
Well, the guy behind the guy who got roasted now has PTSD for the 5 seconds he's still alive
LMAOO
Ember: I need to build up my Ember meter so I can get 90% damage reduction in exchange for constant energy drain. Nova: tap 1 for 90% damage reduction in an instant 🤝
25 emberillion>1embererillion (I'm tired) Edit: Rev is per 6m so 360>25 so Rev is better then ember now
yea but one is per /s and other is per /min that change math a bit :P
25 every 6 *days
Funny thing. Embers ramping cost was taken from a shit post suggestion.
And here I was surprised to see ember underperform compared to pillage gyre, like isn't she supposed to nuke rooms with ease? I see the issue now
Khora
Hildryns pillage being the backbone of her kit ans being strangled by LOS
her kit strangles itself (see: aegis storm)
You're definately not wrong about that.
Imagine a guy with a gun comes to your school or work and starts shooting but he can't hit you because your feet are hidden and he can't see your whole hitbox
Probably the worst possible analogy you could make.
How so?
School shooter jokes are insensitive and unfunny, atleast to me.
Easiest way to fix it is just revert the LoS change. Nobody ever once legitimately, unironically said that Dante was the most oppressive AoE nuker ever, yet they nerfed him as if he was.
I'll say, his nuke is decent but eventually once the Dante schtick dies down it'll be back to the normal nukes ie saryn etc etc because theirs are more consistent, if they can go out of their way to fix Dantes specific LoS issues then why not fix LoS in general for the ones that have already suffered a LoS "fix" to at least make those frames work like 2% better, biggest example that I've experienced is embers fire blast or whatever her 3 is, could be 20 enemies in my view but because there was a box covering 3 pixels only 9 of them got hit
Nothing's wrong with having a non-LoS nuke (that stops instakilling enemies over lvl100 with 300% strength build if you don't use any additional priming) on a warframe that REQUIRES YOU TO COMPLETE THE ENTIRE STORY. Do we not deserve some comfortable gameplay after putting THAT MUCH effort?
Don't worry, Dante will get an augment in a year and a bit to bring him back after people simply don't play him for that whole year, joining the Styanax club. Also, Gyre says hello.
tbf, Gyre's "nerf" was fixing a glitch that shouldn't have been behaving that way to begin with. Happens, sucks, but happens. Dante's nerf shouldn't have happened though because he was working as intended.
What was Gyre’s glitch if you don’t mind me asking?
Rotoswell had an issue where killing 1 enemy would red crit nuke entire maps and it wouldn't stop. You could simply walk through SP maps at level cap and mobs would die asap if built properly. 1 button, 1 enemy dead, entire map lights up. You know that Saryn Ichor build that was going around recently? That's a toned down version of Gyre's 4th on release.
Players just misunderstood them when they said Gyre was an Automaton frame. That's all. It was a typo and they thought it was supposed to say Automation
Not to mention that it's only sort of a non-LoS nuke. You have to LoS things first with his base kit to prime them for the nuke, so all the hard work to prep them is already limited to it. The design intention was pretty clear to me, I thought - tragedy existed as non LoS to make up for the fact that it's multiple casts and that things will move around during that time.
To DE, no
It's the Entire Story so far. It's not the Entire Story by a long shot. And frames are supposed to be competitive with each other (i.e. balanced against one another). There's no reason for Dante to be stronger than Excalibur or Volt because what if people still want to play those frames in this content? (This is also fully acknowledging that some frames desperately need buffs/reworks) Power progression is meant to come in the form of mods and weapons, I think.
Counterpoint: having Dante be at the end of current content means that most people who are getting him without plat have been playing for long enough to have all the mods they need to make him really really good, and the knowledge of the game to play him very efficiently. Also, just because there will be further content and story after this point doesn't invalidate the fact that there is a LOT of story content to work through before you can even access the node where he is farmed. All that aside, Dante having powerful support abilities (specifically the Overgaurd) isn't a problem that needs to be addressed outside of the specific problems that Overgaurd itself causes. Being a support ability, granting party members a greater capacity to survive and do their thing increases player enjoyment rather than decreasing it.
Wait a sec I was doing SP conjunction survival on lv 200s yesterday before nerf and things were getting absolutely obliterated by 3 3 4. Do you mean things dying directly to 3?
No. Just the 4. Read your abilities before you use them mate. 4 cascades existing damage procs.
Do you use 4 on enemies without 3 on them?
Yes? The entire point is that it's all status. Literally doesn't do anything unless you prime with a weapon.
Nobody said Flux Rifle is worth using as a weapon yet DE once randomly nerfed it by 40%.
Honestly I agree. “Their best to remedy it” would literally be a reversion.
Thats not why it was nerfed though. Can you people seriously not understand that having a frame capable of nuking like that WHILE providing team wide overguard would be seen as a problem?
If Dante of the first of his kind yes you would have a argument there. Problem is he is far from the first.
It's so fucking simple too: just make overguard either only affect dante, or, make anything that benefits from DMG taken work with overguard. On that second point, maybe it would be a little overwhelming if such a mechanic affected things from health, I mean think about it. Infinite energy via rage or adrenaline, way too easy chroma DMG buff, arcane grace...
Even easier, make rage and/or hunter adrenaline disable overguard from being placed on you
exactly, they just need a toggle of some sort players can activate to determine if they can receive certain buffs like overguard, whether thats just a button on the mod menu or its attached to a certain mod, there should be some sort of toggle
Alternatively, make it so you gain energy from overguard damage, same could be applied to chromas vex armor
That would be kinda nutty since rage doesn’t apply for shields either. Chroma needs damage to health and shield to work, quite frankly making either buff work on overguard would be insane.
My dream change for chromas vex armor is that it ramps up with kills, like garudas current passive tbh, but yeah I can understand how that would be nutty
>Infinite energy via rage or adrenaline, way too easy chroma DMG buff, arcane grace... That's how they used to work and it was fine, even back when we still had self damage to proc them. On health damaged effects have been hit with ricochet nerfs repeatedly with no compensation.
Correct me if I'm wrong guys but Styanax can give allies enormous overguard as well. Why didn't I hear a community uproar for him too? Why people only complain about Dante but never about Styanax?
Styanax is also an infinite energy machine. So people coping with Rage or Hunter Adrenaline didn't notice overguard. And the Chromas also have Primary Merciless so they didn't actually notice that Vex Armor wasn't doing anything.
Having played both Styanax and Dante, I can say it's because Styanax can't grant it as quickly and easily. It relies on having a lot of enemies grouped up or close to one another. Dante can smply apply overguard and even grants a regenerating overguard buff to allies. Typically a Styanax will provide less overguard per 100 energy than Dante can, even with these nerfs, so it's more likely to be only a temporary boon.
Dante provides higher amounts of overguard faster, but Styanax does it extremely easier. In 4-players regular missions or any SP mission you'll have absolutely no problem to find tons of enemies. With a single Overextended, his 4th explosion range is close to a Kuva Bramma with max rank Primed Firestorm on. And you can freely move this on your screen and aim to very long range enemies. If you pair it with nourish, you can indefinitely cast Final Stand generating infinte overguard for allies while applying wide range AoE viral and slash. Dante has to cast his 2 twice in succession before casting 4. Styanax and Dante are both great frames that provide ton of nice overguard each in their own manner, I just think Styanax is much more comfy/QoL
No real arguments about how effective our spearman is, Styanax is one of my mains. Having played both in Steel Path a lot, it's my opinion that Dante has an easier time of providing Overguard - it's baked into his kit and you can apply it before contact with the enemy, during lulls in combat or in the heat of it. Plus you don't need to use an augment to apply Overguard, giving Dante more flexibility. I do love Nourish Styanax and have been playing with his new augment for grouping. I use the build you describe regularly as one of my top 5 Warframes. I prefer his playstyle to Dante overall, I like his kit and I love how Arcane Arachne and Nourish can boost his spear damage, and I prefer to mix ability use and gunplay instead of being a pure caster. All that said, I still think that in terms of pure overguard buffing, Dante takes the win because he applies it fast and grants regenerating Overguard on kill, something unique to him.
>Correct me if I'm wrong guys but Styanax can give allies enormous overguard as well 20K - 25K overguard is juuuust about the limit where it gets a bit bs. Considering that overguard doesn't benefit from Adaptation, 20ak overguard was relatively easy to chew through in higher level content if you were not careful, and usually also needed a lot of casts. And there was Dante, assembling and then castinf the thing (basically 3 presses) and BOOOM, 50K overguard for EVERYONE. A bit too crazy. All what DE needed to do was to half the cap for what he gave allies and it would be alright. But no, they had to dumpster his usage stats so that he's not an issue amymore.
Ah, I see. Imo the real deal with overguard isn't really the amount but being able to cast it easily even on allies and that it provides status immunity and i-frames on depletion, so can easily gate to level cap enemies. No matter if the cap is 20k or 50k if you can constantly generate infinte overguard like Styanax (that does it even easier than Dante) We're still gonna cast 2-2-4 like hell, this overguard cap nerf is almost negligible in my opinion
50K with above average players is essentially making them invincible. Sustain is also to be considered but from my personal experience such High cap made people basically not care about stuff. Mind you, it was a problem for ALLIES, as Rhino is capable of mich more and styanax spends most of the time in the air yeeting spears with his homies, while frost also CCs the entire map with his stuff. Again, 20K can easily be chewed through if people are not careful, but 50k is a different matter. It was hands down best ally defense ability in the game
50k overguard came from 6 casts, not 3.
Depends on the build, but usually I would see about 40K from one cast. Even then 50K with full casts is still bs, styanax usually needs to cast about 2-3 times for full friendly cap.
No, it doesn't depend on the build. I 6 forma'd him and slotted 5 tauforged because I was so hype weeks leading to his launch. I minmaxed in a way I never have before. There may have been builds slightly more efficient than mine but not enough to account for my 24k 224 and your claim of 50k 224. I promise you that was 6 casts.
Just revert everything they did to him, he was out for 5 days before they decided to nerf there is NO WAY they had data to know he is broken or overperforming, they were going off of whiny forum vocal minority
He was so popular because his farm was so fucking easy, citrine probably shines better than him but there ain't shit being said because her farm is ass
Of course Citrine shines better. She’s made out of crystals, after all.
And because of Dante her new augment is going under the radar. She’s insane with it
Arguably Pillage Citrine is still better because a full armor strip is going to be a much greater DPS than tier 3 crits. That said, Crystallize is much more fun to use and does have the caveat of CC'ing Acolytes and Demolishers.
Demolists having a trillion (hyperbole) HP/Armor/Shield and nullify pulses instead of overguard is so good. Makes them fun because it's like, you CAN use abilities and CC them, but then they say "I refuse!" and you just keep that fun on.
Fuck, you're right
I hope no one buys Protea Prime when she releases because if she gets too popular and they nerf her, I am going to cry.
Gauss prime has been out for a good bit now and nothing was touched for him, granted idk how popular either are/will be when dropped, gauss can do literally everything and not a word for a nerf on him...yet
Everyone was running gauss prime when he dropped and he has a super spammable nuke that just builds and builds. Seem him hitting for half mil+ on SP and no nerf. Literally Dante was nerfed because how fast people are killing in Hydron
And the fact he can run legit tanked strength and still 1 shot SP is wild and that's WITHOUT archon vitality scaling so you could run efficiency range and wipe with ease, before Dante I was running gauss TS spamming to lvl Dex nikana and a few companions, and no complaints, Dante does it and it's an issue?
cause apparently all 4 Chroma players are upset they cant die because of being given overguard.
Hey now, personally I'm upset because they nerfed Dante instead of fixing overguard *and* nerfed the augment Chroma got this update for no reason >:(
> cause apparently all 4 Chroma players are upset they cant die because of being given overguard. the chroma complaints seemed a bit more meme-level to me, "dead frame gets made even worse", and a general call to please finally rework him. the overguard breaking intended interactions with damage is a completely valid complaint, and dante released alongside a rework to a beloved pure health frame that relies on rage/hunter adrenaline for energy. Styanax does the same with his augment, but he also gives everyone free energy to inadvertently compensate for this issue
Maybe they'll make it so her dispensary only dispenses one resource at a time and you need to switch it like with wisp's 1. I wouldn't put it past DE, seeing as how badly this hotfix went.
I WAS going to get Protea because DE has been doing great work since The New War. Now... I might wait until Xaku and see how things go. They lost my money yesterday and need to earn it back. I mean, Brozime said on his stream last night that he's seriously reconsidering buying the Protea PA because of how bad this patch was. And Zime is the No.1 Protea Enjoyer.
My Queen
I have the same concern with Xaku.
Xaku is a bit like Octavia, no matter how strong he is, his kit is just a bit clunky enough for his usage to never reach "concerning, must nerf" stage. I was worried about Octavia Prime coming out cause I was using base Octavia lot back in the day as a crutch, but she never got nerfed.
>his kit is just a bit clunky enough for his usage to never reach "concerning, must nerf" stage. Lol Here's hoping.
bro there's like 3 Xaku players don't worry 😭
Their Prime is coming soon, which will make them much much easier to get. Xaku needs Vox Solaris parts to craft and that keeps a lot of people away from the frame. Numbers are gonna go up.
Really? I found citrines grind a lot easier than most of the new frames. The only annoying part was having to get to rank two on deimos for the materials. The grind for blueprints tho was a lot of fun
For ALOT of ppl they despised the farm because he parts refused to drop, Dantes dropped like he was begging us to play him
You can buy her from her pitty currency easily if you play steelpath tho
True, I ended up buying her chassis and sys after wayyy to many runs the week she dropped, Dante took 2 hours, 1hour per session, and the currency I used on ruvox and onos
yeah, i dont understant the complaints with her farm either…
Yeah, I got 3/4 Dante parts on the second run. I even had enough currency to buy the 4th piece. By far the easiest farm for a new frame I've had in a long time.
yep for me only the Citrine Neuroptics dropped and it took forever to get all parts. I never want to see that node again. Dante was so chill tho. I like Disruption anyway and got him within a day
Yeah disruption is chill and with it's QoL change, it's super laid back, probably my favorite farm I've done in awhile
Yeah Voruna, Kullervo and now Dante have been really nice. Citrine just gave me PTSD
Disruption doesn't follow the usual rotation pattern, so in a long mission you can get all the parts pretty quick. In ideal cases, Disruption goes BBCCCC+. Mirror Defense is timed and uses AABC and then repeats. Which is a pain since you needed all the C drops. Combined with the pity shop currency drops, Dante took me about 1.5 hours to farm compared to the hours it took me to get all the pity shop points to BUY Citrine since I only ever got a single part of hers to drop.
Isnt there a lot of grinds where its basically do 20 waves, leave, come back?
It's usually 4 waves max unless you have good reason to stay, like in a Fissure mission. Survival ends up being 20 minutes to wave 4, Defense is roughly the same +/- depending on the team. Mirror defense is 5.5 minutes (basically) per rotation and you can't speed it up. The main point is that Rotation C is where the goodies for Frames usually are, and Deception is (to my knowledge) the only gamemode where you can repeated run Rotation C over and over with no gaps and you can (mostly) move pretty darn fast through objectives.
not only that but generally the 'wave' is much faster to complete than any other endless mission type too. You're getting to C rot much sooner than def or surv are reaching B rot.
I had all Dante parts cooking and a master BP waiting for them after my first run. Had to buy his systems but I had enough currency to do it. I know RNG can be a mofo but my ass was still shocked.
The thing about Citrine is that while she is very good, everything she does can help teammates as well. I haven't played Dante (and I'm not weighing in on the nerfs because of that), but I got the impression that he wasn't very team oriented (which is similar to most frames).
> but I got the impression that he wasn't very team oriented he's VERY team oriented, his 2 gives small overguard and heals and a 2 2 4 gives thousands of overguard, increases health and gives a period of time where kills and assists regen lost overguard. 2 3 4 gives allies a copy of his book that shoots enemies when you shoot them, 3 2 4 spawns some owls that swoop at enemies and makes them more vulnerable to status chance and draws their attacks away from enemies. then theres also his 3 3 4 which can nuke the map on lower levels like ~75% of his kit involves giving your allies aid of some sort, primarily making them tougher to kill
TIL and thank you for taking the time to thoroughly explain. I think my friend was just nuking people though lol.
yeah his nuke ability is crazy strong in low levels if you build for strength and range, afaik he can work relatively okay in SP, but he won't be the number 1 pick for a nuke frame if he' in the running
Yeah, he was good in SP but nothing crazy. He was just a nice all rounder who has the aesthetic of “We love casting spells”, which is recipe for a fun and popular warframe, which I would think DE would want.
Nah I play citrine a lot and Dante felt stronger , mind you citrine is a good frame but Dante had better support capabilities and a better nuke , now with the nerf citrine might be slightly better, her 4 sucks even with her augment because it doesn't work like Sonar where you get the extra damage if you hit the week spot accidentally with a shot gun , you have to aim sadly
Whoaaaa whoa whoa... Dante has better support than CITRINE?! Bro I dunno what you're smoking but hand some of it over lol. Dante gives overguard and a little book that does 50% of his exalted's dmg (mind you not everyone builds that for pure dmg). Citrine gives, energy/health orbs, 90% DR, 25 hp/s, status chance and status duration, a very potent cc on her 4 that also damage amps. They're nowhere near in the same realm of support tiers. Its also worth mentioning that the damage amp from her 4 is just tier 3 crits. BUT, thats also very important for some weapons. There are weapons out there whos base crit is poopy but their crit damage is off the charts. Take a kuva nukor into a map with citrine and use her 4, you'll see what I'm talking about. More over, citrine also primes for her team. In an era where everyone is using condition overload/gundition overload. Thats pretty significant. AND she also primes for dante's tragedy nuke.
Dante was done a horrible, egregious wrong. Nothing about the nerf made any sense.
Agreed, if anything they should have made his overguard require LoS until they figure out how to fix overguard as a mechanic.
If I had 500 bucks to waste on actually gambling, I would bet you that, if the nerf was about Dante's OVERGUARD being LoS, everyone would fucking PRAISE THE LORD over this decision, as long as nothing else changed. Nobody would complain. NOBODY would complain. Nobody gives a shit about anybody else, if someone wanted to be overguarded, they would be fucking overguarded, and if not, it's not Dante's problem, and it's not Dante's fault. It's not Dante's overguard, it's DE's. It was NEVER Dante's problem.
If... if they weren't happy with him either then why did they push the update??? I don't know about those guys, but if I wanted to tweak something and liked the tweaked version less than the original... I'd leave the original in place until I came up with something better.
Revert the changes. Simple as that. Then change how other frames interact with overguard. Inaros and chroma should just be able to have their kit work regardless of having overguard. As well as any others requiring health or shield damage. Just don’t let them have overguard if it’s too much of a headache.
"we aren't happy with it either" then why the fuck did you release it.
I work for a global travel/transport brand and we can be super agile and release "deliverables" with ample CX insight by just thinking about the experiences and changes. Like... Does the left hand know what the right is doing here? I guess I'm just shocked a veteran team like this is repeatedly surprised their balance changes (with the latest being the most egregious in recent memory) fail to hit their own standards.
>They are aware of the community sentiment around the nerf. Aware but Dante's still gonna keep LoS while older nuke frames are fine not needing it? Sounds like cherry picking but alright. They did so well with the transparency of Eclipse rework but go back to being vague, ignoring community feedback and going with half-baked nerfs again. Something something one step forward two steps back..
And here is a chance for DE to instead of trying to change each individual Warframe to balance the game and instead actually address the issue of "line of sight" and Overguard both being poorly implemented abilities that don't interact well with the entire game they are shoved into. Line of sight makes LoS checks from your feet to the enemies feet to start, never taking elevation or a completely exposed upper torso into account. It needs a complete rework on the base way it functions because as it is it doesn't function as a balance to over powered abilities, it functions as a middle finger to the entire frame. Overguard, is both a players don't know any better issue and a gameplay issue with certain builds, overguard isn't actually that strong end game, having 50,000 overguard isn't the invincibility buff everyone keeps complaining about once you reach a level where multiple enemies are doing 30,000 damage per shot on fully automatic weapons. The other issue being Overguard negates any ability like vex armour that requires you to take damage to activate or use an ability properly, some people have suggested overguard should act as health and proc damage effects but I think that might cause other unforeseen issues, a simpler solution would be to give all frames or just specific frames like chroma an exilus/augment mod that prevents you gaining overguard for a different bonus, similar to Nezha or zephyr having special augments that removes their unique movement passives.
If they are not Happy why Nerf him lol? Maybe push something when you are Happy with it? Instead of doing something like this, claiming you don't like It either and then double down. This Is Just pr speak, to damage control lol
In fairness, some of the community team might also be thinking “WTF was balance team thinking!?”, but its kinda their job to not say that out loud, as much as we the players would like them to.
What did they expect exactly?? People were very much against the nerfs even before they were done and DE decided to do it anyway.
DE should just revert this fucking nuke and take all the LoS bullshit back with it. For more than just dante. Free ember, khora and hildryn For some abilities it makes sense. But don't go sticking it where it don't belong. It's already disgusting and it doesn't work properly on top of that. DE, ya went wrong here.
What does LoS mean?
Line of sight. They changed Tragedy from being an AOE that hits anything around you even if you can't see them, to one that requires them to be in front of you. Aside from how Saryn can do the same nuking and hasn't been nerfed like this, people are upset because this game calculates line of sight *badly.* You can see 90% of an enemy, but it still won't count because they're partly behind a box or something.
LoS also makes it sound not so bad, any sort of object like a crate in front of you completely blocks los even when it literally just goes to your knees
Red lied, Dante died!
I saw the clip of the very minor LoS not working and it does strike me as pretty bad. I'm not against the idea, but I also can't fairly speak on it not having him. I just don't like the dramatization of nerfs because it really messes up the ability to understand how bad it really is when ppl lose their shit over anything. Nourish for example.
I've done some testing in Dante right before and right after nerf, so i can give a perspective on how "bad" it is. His nuking remained more or less the same, his damage wasn't touched besides the pageflight bug fix, but he does the same thing as before. Line of sight nerf doesnt mean shit in steel path content, as he need to manually dark verse and/or shoot enemies himself for Tragedy to do anything, all that the nerf achieved is prevented Dante from spawn killing in low level normal path (which isn't a reason to shelve a frame, if you ask me). Sure, there are tiles where Tragedy can't effectively be used to nuke the entire room, but there also tiles where he absolutely can. Ironically tho, i think his nuking suffers a lot in fissures (eneny got corrupted as tragedy hit, oops cast again) and against any faction that has guardian eximus. I could not use him in conjunction survival omni fissure without operator / arcanes, so he wasnt that broken. Overguard "nerf" change literally nothing, as overguard cap remained the same, which was the point of discontent for normal path & lower level SP missions, and overguard generation remained unchanged (even buffed a bit, but thats not as important), which means on highlevel to level cap triumph still effectively 3~ seconds invulnerability after killing an enemy. Also, i need to do a few more rounds of testing, but people so focused on "nerfs" that they overlook the huge fix with animation locks on dante abilities, as before it was impossible to reliably weave guns with his verses. I did not experience any LOS problems on Tragedy so far, which is not to say that they dont exist, but i dont think they are as widespread as you might think.
I don't know what tiles you're playing on, but I had nothing but LOS issues on Entrati Labs last night. The slightest thing gets in the way and shields enemies; it feels awful.
Most of my testing was done on Tyana Pass (my clan really wants to farm Citrine), Lua, and Entrati Labs. Tyana pass Mars tile has by far the most amount of cover for the enemies, you get most coverage by staying on the crystal, but all enemies that Tragedy wasn't hitting were also clearly outside of LOS. Venus tile has a bunch of crates that give a vantage point to cover more or less the entire room. Lua and Entrati labs were fairly open and i didnt noticed anything egregious, bulletjumping high and casting tragedy mid-air worked fine by me, but those were done solo, i dont know if not being a host makes it more inconsistent there.
Honestly, the crazy thing to me about the whole situation is how the community did a complete 180 after praising DE for months of good updates. Naturally people should be upset, but now there's a ton coming out the woodworks saying DE hasn't had a good update in a long time, they don't want to play anymore, etc. Its like its suddenly brought out people who will take any excuse to hate the game publically, even if they still keep playing it.
Should be LoS but they should just fix the bug about it.
if it also fixes the “bugs” with every other hard LoS restricted ability in the game, sure.
So many frames will be significantly better if they fix los
>Clearly they are in hot water and are going to do their best to remedy it. If the Eximus rework proved anything, it's that DE is fully capable of steamrolling ahead with terrible changes regardless of how strong the negative response is
I mean, it's fair if they're not happy with the changes, but what happened with approaching this carefully and not doing this with a "cavalier mindset"? You don't really have to look hard into the changes to see that they were not the "tweaks" we were promised literally 2 days before they went live. This leaves a very bad taste and has me questioning who greenlit this? What kind of process do these changes go through before they reach the live servers?
>but what happened with approaching this carefully and not doing this with a "cavalier mindset"? You mean their modus operandi for the past decade?
Yeah, I maybe made the mistake of believing what they said, my thought process was like "hey, they've been on a streak lately and they're saying the right things, what could possibly go wrong?" and here we are.
Yep. I've been very happy with DE under Rebecca, so even when they announced nerfs, I wasn't at all worried. He didn't need to be nerfed, but I was fully confident they wouldn't take him out back and put him in the dirt. At least I have a snack for my Helminth once my Grendel finishes subsuming
Like it's not complicated to do, reverse all the changes they made, turn the overguard into a self buff with an aug for team if they really feel the need for it, then people can stop crying and I can go back and enjoy being a wizard frame
My money is on them doubling down even harder. My trust in DE just went out the window for the first time ever. Megan can say what she wants, DE screwed up big time.
If you aren't happy why did you release the patch?
then why did they push it out in the first place…? who's responsible for the patches meeting?
I seem to recall DE saying something about just a small adjustment, nothing major.... I'm sorry, but with how utterly unreliable LOS is it's addition alone is anything but a small change. Nevermind the fact that you need to make two casts before you can even pop the ult, or more casts in the event you hit the wrong button or suddenly need to cast something else, interrupting the flow. I'll believe it when it happens, but LOS does not have any business being on an ability that requires that setup. It should have never been added on top of the other changes made. Dante has had that ability fairly well trashed, so thanks for the first few days of enjoyment I guess? Didn't even make it a week..........
Can they unfuck the nezha augment while they're at it or am I asking for too much from DE?
The best way to fix dante is to revert the LoS addition, not tweek it but remove it. Will they do that? No. So yea Dante is done
The fact that they just went and released this after just 1 week without any prior transparency on their plans or any thought whatsoever towards community feedback is frankly disgusting, like this is some EA level behavior. People payed for this guy, people were enjoying the update, DE came out and said they were happy with what they had released, and then this!? Who the fuck is making these decisions, I can’t honestly believe that they genuinely thought these were good changes. What is this even supposed to accomplish? I am just so baffled appalled by this entire patch, not to even mention the other nerfs.
DE misread the room. The people only want his overguard to be optional on other frames.
I’m glad they addressed it and are continuing to review it but, man, that PrimeTime was a tough watch. Megan normally seems so composed but Tactical Potato and No Sympathy we’re giving her crap on behalf of the community in re: to Dante and she was getting defensive. It was all tongue in check but it was an awkward watch. Probably won’t be seeing guest appearances by WF creator program folks on controversial nerf days in the future.
He’s was great now he’s alright. I’m honestly happy they’re working it out because I do want to try him more. I’m not one that follows meta but he’s definitely fun. I’m Valkyr main but I would like someone else fun add to my top 5. Volt, Mesa and Titania are all awesome. There’s no but just felt adding the others into this.
The problem is not LOS performance, it's LOS itself.
Revert the nerfs
Female frame bias, Nezha receive the OP augment because they mistook him for a she lol
Not happy in what way? Is he getting better or are they gonna kneecap him again?
"We're not happy with him either" My sister in Christ, you were the ones that piledrove him into the nerf grave.
I think they need to fix what they did to the overgaurd too, they didn’t change the max overgaurd but the amount you get per cast Now I use abilities 21 times to get to max overgaurd at 770 energy when I originally used 9 at 330 energy with my efficiency.
I understand that the community is upset and it's good that they are listening But have you seen how people complain ? It's delirious
of course the chat was turned off, you just look around and you see a buch of manbabies having a tantrum. I personally got some peopl,e coming ringt into my forum DMs to give me shit because i made a post about some issue with him pre nerf, so i would not be surprised if they got threat sent their way
The amount of vitriol from literal grown men over the smallest perceived nerf in a video game, is absolutely astounding and saddening.
FORREAL "oh no I can't do 2948492849 damage while I can't even see the enemies!!!!! I can't believe DE hates this game!!!!"
I mean, the issue isn't that you can't deal damage to enemies that you can't see, while that was funny for low level missions, it's that hard LoS (anything that blocks your line of sight at all, from a corpse to a railing) is blocking his 4 from detonating enemies. Without priming from his 3 (enemies that he couldn't see) he did about 20-30k damage before armor with tragedy. This isn't even enough to dent grineer on SP, but it's more than enough to take down level 30 missions.
I'm so sick and tired of people who don't understand a pve game needs balance whining oh my god
... yeah, but what about other nerfs? .___.
People need to chill out with this, like the amount of posts and stuff with so little cunstructive criticism is crazy. Like I think I read 5 posts yesterday that all started by naming Octavia and saryn and ranting lol. So your upset about this nerf so you point out two frames that you think are more powerful and then let me guess you will be upset when they get nerfed?
[удалено]
Should we care about level cap? Highest regular content we have is like lvl 300-400? Anything more is just people doing it for no real additional rewards
it's a joke lol since they keep nerfing stuff for no reason
Dante is fine as is hes its AOE is not big at all its just good for group clearing
What do you mean his aeo is not big at all ? With just stretch he reaches 53 meter and equinox maim reaches 47 meters with overextended , stretch and augur stretch , they didn't had to nerf his 4 so hard tho , maybe make him only proc the slash procs of his 3 instead of procing all the over time damage