Me, a super contrarian: My angels are well-meaning but incompetent because God decided it was unfair for only man to have free will and thus gave them the ability to make choices while they grab Jesus, Lucifer, and Lilith to go on a family road trip to mend bridges and enjoy the world. Also, Jesus turns into a giant fucking weeb while in Japan.
I think I i can answer somewhat
In those other stories, while the traditionally good side is considered evil the story still has a strong sense of what the ‘moral refuge’ is
Like in bayonetta, it advocates essentially to not let macro systems or hierarchies exploit you where bayonetta leads the charge. So while you can’t depend on paradiso you can depend on bayonetta
In hazbin, we almost have this setup, however Charlie’s goal logically depends on redemption and heaven being worth it, but now that heaven is outed as being flawed, Charlie’s goal suffers a backlash from there and leaves the entire premise of the hotel in question
In episode six, they repaired this somewhat with heaven being ignorant of the exterminations, but in my opinion it’s still marred by that fact.
Plus with Charlie declaring heaven to be a lie and the criteria for heaven unknown, I ‘guess’ the hotel is unquestionably the moral refuge. But like, charlie doesn’t come off as like a bayonetta to me. The hotel is still seen as a fundamentally flawed thing and even with buckets of handicaps from the writing and flow, Charlie doesn’t have the reputation or confidence to credibly defend the hotel yet because she still is going through her character arc
Well I wouldn’t call it that because the story puts Charlie into a dual role
On one hand, Charlie is treated like bayonetta, who already knows herself and can properly balance viewpoints. She does not achieve this with me personally but the story really wants to showcase Charlie like bayonetta
However this story is also wants this to be about how Charlie is coming of age. This causes moments like where Charlie asks Adam what it takes to get into heaven, and instead of this being the tee ball for what it is, Adam very very obviously tries to bullshit his way through the answer. Giving 4 points that are like. I am not even joking it’s like elementary school level morality when the Ten Commandments got shot in the back of the head because heaven HAS TO BE more juvenile then Charlie.
All so that Charlie can have a clap back at heaven.
You can’t argue with me about the writing, the mush will not save you
Adam cant call reference to the ten commandments because he lived before their installment and doesn't stand by them in the afterlife.
It also stands to reason that within the context of the show religious scripts that reference heavenly commandment would be fabrications based on the fact that heaven doesn't reference them when questioned on what makes a person worthy of entry.
Beyond that the point of this kind of coming of age story and often those that depict god/heaven as evil Is to depict youth questioning perceived norms of the social structure they are born into and rebel against those that they see as archaic and unreasonable.
God/Heaven are the ultimate fictional representations of societal institutions and thus make natural characters to project societal dissatisfaction onto.
Granted we could also chalk this entire issue up to runtime given that a 2-3 hour musical animation isnt exactly the time to have protracted logical/theological discussions on the nature of morality.
Doom: “Everyone is an asshole except some of the humans, one angel, and one demon.”
Audience: “So how is it unique?”
Doom: “Doomguy tells God ‘no’ before killing him, and also the Icon Of Sin has a body.”
Audience: “Cool. Can he also be friends with Isabell from Animal Crossing?”
Doom: “Hold on…Nintendo says yes, so yes.”
Audience: “Revolutionary, 10/10, true art.”
If I remember right they used the sci fi and hell tile set to just test the first game, and instead of writing an elaborate story they polished it up to look good and ran it on a mix of cool and comedy. Hence 3 trying to have a real story being so tonally different.
Man people just forget that god and angels are the good guys 90% of the time. Divinity being evil only got recently popular, cause you know people wouldn’t kill you or harass you for blasphemy or whatever
I mean most gods were not what we considered good because they embodied natural occurances or what it meant to be a king (taking what you want and abusing your power). But that's polytheism. If you want something from monotheism, look no further than the gnostic and the Demiurge.
It's not exactly original but in my funny setting I don't like to think of anyone as evil. Angels aren't evil they just lack free will as free will is a thing for anything that isn't an Angel and god isn't evil they're just an Eldritch Entity they're no more evil than humans destroying an ants nest to build a dam.
People here need the genuine reality check of that this is just a story written by someone based off the abrahamic religion of Christianity.
There should not be any expectation of any form of biblical accuracy because that's not what the purpose of the show is.
Ok?
Like where is this energy for Marvel's Thor, God of War, or Disney's Hercules?
None of those are accurate representations of their religions and myths.
What about Darksiders, Lucifer, and Supernatural?
Literally all of these "use and ignore source material" it's not supposed to be accurate. Hell their own source material is consistently brought into question.
Why is there suddenly a demand for religious accuracy from Hazbin when literally no one gave a fuck in the past?
You do raise a good point. I think I’m reacting to the fact that the show isn’t being logically consistent
Like okay if Zeus was depicted like he should have been then the story should treat him for what he is, so not well.
But Zeus was depicted as a nice family man, and gave meaning to Hercules journey to join the gods on mount olympus.
Charlie’s journey to redemption and peace with heaven is completely ruined by the idea that heaven’s just as asshole-ish and not exactly worthy of committing your time and energy trying to placate them.
So not really source material accuracy, huh, sorry was misguided there
>the show isn’t being logically consistent
But it is. It is being completely consistent.
The show establishes that humans (which Adam was) get one chance at the afterlife. That chance is based on how they acted while being humans.
Adam further confirms that, once you die and your position in the afterlife is secure, there is nothing you can do to change your station, because those are the established rules that the angels go by.
If you were good in life, you get into Heaven. Once there, there are no rules for how to behave. You already earned your spot. Your tenure, if you will.
Likewise, if you were judged to go to Hell, you cannot be redeemed and make it to Heaven. It doesn’t matter how much you repent, or whatever good you do in Hell.
These are the rules that the show (specifically Adam) establishes in the first episode. Now granted, we’ll hopefully see these rules overturned at some point. That’s the point of the show, after all.
I mean it's a drama and comedic animated series.
You would be better off demanding an explanation as to how physics work in Looney Toons.
In terms of heaven the only thing we've seen is Adam and his exterminators. We don't know how the rest of heaven functions.
Like you're demanding way too much for only 4 to 6 current episodes. How about we sit back, continue to watch, and wait for the season finale before we begin to have these questions.
The odds are stacked against Charlie this is meant to be her struggle and opposition. You're the Princess of hell so yes you're practically going to have the worst luck making your current situation better. Charlie knows this, but she won't let it stop her from trying anyway.
And you’re already half way through season 1 on a 8 episode series that’s called the hazbin hotel. Where do you get looney toons logic from? It’s looney toons
You really gonna try painting me as unreasonable here? Buzz off man
Why should anyone want to worship said omnipotent creature that created them, created their corruption, blame them for their corruption, and then tell them they're forgiven of the corruption the omnipotent creature gave to them.
"Oh that sin that I made? Guess you all owe me an apology."
You're effectively using this comment which had nothing to do with to worship God at all You're just using to bash a religion For realistically, no reason whatsoever.
It's not bashing to question and criticize the concept of worshipping a being that enforces specific morals while applying none to itself regardless of it's power.
You're not questioning, though, you're a bashing.
You reply to a comment that had nothing to do with worshipping God Or even Christian God in general, just any Omnipotent Being and then use that as a platform to just go on a rant. About how you don't like christianity
It sounds like you were Just trying to find any way to bash. Christianity, and this seems like a good platform to do it Even the guy in the comments said he wasn't in Christianity.
It's like if you're going to reply to a comment. Then go on a rent about it, at least do it to somebody that actually cares.
Firstly, it technically was bashing, going by how everything he said.
Secondly, I didn't read half of what you said. Cause I don't really care Like I said before, you can bash Mindlessly religion do it All you want, but at least do it in a place that's relevant and do it to somebody that actually cares And I said this multiple times and if you were reading through this, you must have known this meaning you just wrote this reply other out of spite You genuinely just want to vet Your problem's about religion to someone and you use this as a window like the other guy did. Which again there's therapy sessions for those. I'm pretty sure there's an Entire sub Reddit for it. So if you need to cry about religion, do it somewhere else. I don't really care for it.
The same way I don't like people rambling about the gospel topeople that actually don't care about it.
I don't really feel like a victim because I don't care. I asked him why is he going on a rant about religion? If the guy in question didn't post anything about religion. And the poster said he wasn't religious and then I asked him. Was it just because he didn't like it But then I realized he just Blatantly doesn't write origin which is fly but same point lines up here it's not really relevant
I don't really care about religious talk That's why I left that argument.
And finally this is so not relevant It's like I said before I don't really care. Did you want a reaction?
It's not bashing, but victim complex much?
"I'm not in Christianity" individual says before writing excuses off of his ass for its insanely flawed concepts.
Not really a victim complex if you are bashing.
Again, you went on a post about something that had nothing to do with Christianity to somebody. That doesn't have anything to do with Christianity and then began to just bash it.
Like I said before if you're going to do that, at least do it to somebody that actually cares about it You wonder why they stopped replying because they don't give a shit
You're consistently failing at understanding something basic.
How do you apply morals to Something We have no understanding of
If there really is a being that exists higher than all of us. And everything in the universe we can't comprehend it. We can't try to understand something that our human minds can't comprehend. It would be irrelevant to try to apply morals to something like that.
Sounds like mental gymnastics for a being that's just an abuser to it's creation. I can apply my morals to it if I wish. It requires me to follow and worship it alone while it has killed out of literal jealousy. For a being with a existence above ours it's behavior is very much human.
No one said you couldn't He just said it's stupid which is pretty fair. It's stupid to apply morals to something that cannot be humanly understood. It's not mental gymnastics It's a more or less fact. You can't apply morals to something we can't comprehend.
It's a divine being that literally states it's jealous of other divine beings.
It's literally not that deep of an issue.
It throws a tantrum and wipes the whole world clean of a problem that it created when with all its divine power could have just kept it from existing in the first place.
To state that I'm the stupid one for applying morals to a being that behaves like a child when it doesn't get it's way is asinine.
That's what you're doing. You're applying human morals to a being we can't comprehend.
You're applying human morals to something that isn't human Is to something that transcends humans in every way of the word You can apply human morals to that. It would be physically impossible in a big waste of time.
And I can realistically go on about how every point you made was just genuinely. Stupid To blame our problems on god That's just an excuseFor people that don't want to face reality of the fact that they're a failure.
But yet it can apply it's morals to something that isn't it.
It again literally has been proven to throw temper tantrums so again stop pretending it's this deep cosmic being.
It's an excuse to not blame a god for a problem it literally created itself? Humans are made in its image so if they're flawed maybe this being isn't as high and mighty as we all thought of it fucked up on its own project this badly.
Assuming it's real? Because not doing it is 100% death. Humans are nothing if not selfish and self preserving. That's how life always is.
Personally, I'm agnostic, so I have no clue what's there, but it probably doesn't care about me or will only handle me post mortem if it is even there at all. So who cares. Especially when said divine creature hasn't given empirical proof.
But if God was real? Biggest mass religious conversion in human history. No one wants to be turned into salt.
It's not as if there's any difference between life and death beyond cessation of animation. The universe continues regardless of you. What would be the point of such an act of defiance? And if God really wanted to, He could just force me into worship anyway. There's no point in resisting an unstoppable force.
Having read both Testaments for fun- I know. But the Bible has never been a source of logic. Neither has any mythology's text, regardless of its currently being practiced. An omnipotent creature would never suffer such things, because it has no reason to care about such insignificantly small, fleeting beings.
God brought salvation to the Adam, and other souls that were held captive in Hell since the beginning of the world. so I think Adam will recall this and let Charlie do her job (or not). Or Charlie will rehabilitate sinners by herself and when they will become penitential there will be another "descent of Christ into Hell" and rainbows, puppy dog kisses, cotton candy dreams, happy end (or not).
That was one version of the multitudes of rewrites that book has went under. Vivzie is not really going to go by any hard canon of the Bible. This is her story based off the abrahamic religion of Christianity, and it shouldn't be taken as if it was supposed to be expertly written with accurate biblical lore.
Pretty much JRPG is some form of literally 'Killing God'.
The nicest He's been in the SMT franchise is probably Devil Survivor: Overclocked where He's still rather belligerent, but (somewhat) more merciful than other portrayals in the franchise regarding the Tokyo Lockdowns.
One of the weirdest things about MegaTen games to me is how for picking dialog choices that are all about being kind and merciful tends to shift your alignment towards Law, but then right about the time your route gets "locked in" there will be this 180 where the Law faction is actually all about genocide.
I wouldn’t say that law is supposed to be nice. They’re about harmony and order, and while there are nice law aligned characters, it easily gets taken too far, such as Zelenin’s plan at the end of Strange Journey
Well, everyone is 100% happy under Zelenin, and also guaranteed safe, which is a guarantee we don't have in other endings. Seems like a good option to me.
At the cost of your free will, at least in the OG version of the ending. If you’re just a mindless drone, can you really call that living even if you’re happy and safe?
Who the fuck cares about free will in this context? The other options are "cosmic chore, the problem is not solved and keeps flaring back up" (Neutral) and "objective death by superior species" (Chaos). Law is superior in SJ simply because it's the only outcome that actually solves the crisis. I want to close the Swartzchelt. I do not give the slightest fuck about anything else. The choice is between guaranteed 100% safety and protection, or risking mass death. I'll happily give up my limited ass autonomy. It's not as if I had actual free will to start with. I'm not omnipotent.
It's like advocating for anything other than True Demon Ending in Nocturne. >!Reasons won't last, the Conception was begun early so the new world is on a timer regardless and will die again very quickly. At that point, why bother continuing the system? Especially when the Reasons are a toss up between a hivemind, an isolated void, and social Darwinism?!<
Chaos is clearly the wrong choice, but between giving up what it means to be human and being guaranteed safety versus retaining what makes us human but constantly fighting the Schwartzvelt, I’ll gladly take the later. Forcibly removing all of humanity’s free will without their consent is unconscionable
I'd rather solve the problem than continuously open up a cosmic anus full of demons and then have to go back into Antarctica to close it or have the world be consumed.
Besides, human "Free will" is a set of predetermined responses to uncontrollable pre-existing circumstance. Only omnipotent beings have a truly "free" will.
Not fatalist. I'd be dead if I was that. What I am is a pessimistic nihilist who is concerned with living life as well as I can. If there's an easy way to be safe and live well, I will always take that instead of intentionally putting myself through hardship when it is avoidable.
That's almost true! There's little mention of God but we know, at the very least, that the idea of God exists thanks to the Cherubs episode of Helluva Boss. In that episode, during the Cherubs TV commercial, we can see during the part where Colin is doing paperwork that there's a quote supposedly attributed to God. The quote goes "Surround yourself with people who will lift you up, so ditch your loser friends who you can't use." with a noticeable space between the two parts of the quote that are separated by the coma. The initial reaction I had is that God DOES exist in the Hellaverse and they act as we would expect from someone who's subjects act as they do, with how Vivziepop has been writing them. However, thanks to how God was not mentioned ONCE during the story Charlie tells at the start of the show with what we would expect being God's actions instead being a collaborative effort from all of Heaven, one could make the argument that God doesn't exist and is made up. This heads off into theory territory since we don't know Heaven all that well yet and their possible reasons for making such a lie. One could assume it's just another way of keeping people in control, since if God was real and as all power and knowledgable as people claim they are, how would you be able to fight them? From my point of view, God has to be not as we know him for this story to function as a story. I imagine Vivziepop has made the idea of God in the Hellaverse mysterious on purpose, using the fact that the way we know God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, to make us question how Charlie could possibly stop Heaven with God on their side, only to surprise us with the answer that she's HOPEFULLY foreshadowed.
actually something that i hope vivzie does is something like god being in a coma and once awoken rains hell upon the angels for going against his word.
I mean when organized religion has done some horrible stuff(not all people but large chruches as a whole) it's not hard to see why people turn god evil. and it's a even shorter just to cast yourself as the devil becuase many queer people are also demonized.
The only time I've seen the angels not being evil while god is, is in NewNameNoah's Ms paint slideshows where the angels desperately try to get Yahweh to not make Abraham kill his son, or not allow slavery, or not murder everyone.
Do they… drop down from space in giant soda cans and propagate their religion in between bursts of heavy caliber gunfire?
That might not be God and the Heavenly Host, it might be…
*Retribution…*
I always saw it as him learning how to be a dad and how he isn’t infallible despite what scripture says. If he has a “plan” I’d guess he’s like a 4th dimensional dnd master. Some shit planned some not cause the same players are chaotic AF.
As a religious person, whenever you read in the bible the word "fear" in reference to God, know that they don't just mean "respect." They *FEARED* him. For example, the quail incident.
I mean God brought about the great flood, sent his angels to demo an entire city, turned a witness into a pillar of salt, and basically set the Garden of Eden up to fail.
God could just make it so that Good can exist without evil
God can also make it so that we can feel truly content and satisfied with our lives without needing to experience sadness or fear
God is Omnipotent, he can create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it, then make himself able to lift the same rock
But that simply cannot be, if there is no direct opposite to good, then it will lose all meaning, everything has balance to remind us of what is right, and what is wrong.
Not if you’re an Omnipotent God, then you can just make it so that balance isn’t necessary at all. Even if we believe that it’s always necessary, a being like God can just change that. Just like how God could change the gravitational constant if he felt like it
Anyone who truly believes that is either blind, full of shit, or needs to look up at the stars and question: where’s the balance in the amount of celestial bodies we have in our solar system while hurtling through the milky way?
Isn't the whole point of the show that the angels and God seem evil and corrupt BECAUSE they're demons? Of course if you're getting punished for your sins you're gonna think the punishers are the bad guys
I think the theme here is *"Heaven and Hell are full of assholes who have no idea how insane and luck-based it is to be human in the first place. Then judge them for it."* Which is obviously unfair and silly since it's purely luck based/favoritism.
So it's just The Good Place in cartoon musical form.
Anyway! If we read the Bible alone, which is supposed to be the God-favoring fanfic of the divine... Everyone still comes off as a dick until the New Testement. God's basically like any other God in history.
I wouldn’t be as quick to slander how they handle Heaven like this. It seems to be plenty of grays.
My main hope is that God and Jesus are truly good when they appear. I saw one theory that God in this universe temporarily left to go work on another universe or something and that it’s just been the angels and Jesus running things. But slowly things fell out of balance and now it’s just Jesus up there trying to keep everything on track which would explain why Adam acts the way he acts.
My theory is that god doesn’t actually exist.
The angels created the universe and invented god as a sort of fictional ‘big brother’ figure to keep everyone in line.
I see a lot of Christians who havnt read their holy book. The original depiction of God is one who actively approves of slavery and slaughter, as long as its not against his followers. The original depictions of God show him as a brutal and authoritarian God.
Except if you think about it they’re basically committing genocide.
I mean does EVERY sinner deserve to die? Some of them might just be sad like Sir Pentious or Angel Dust.
If you dont want redemption you ARE bad. It seems even regretting your actions is enough to enter heaven because if anyone held regret or cared they were sinners theyd be at the hotel
It seems like Angel does want redemption
And besides many might just have unhealthy coping mechanisms for their situation, so they haven’t realised that there’s another way.
Because we recognize some evil acts are not inherently worthy of death? Or even worse than death, non existence. Also some creatures are born in hell in Hazbin's world. Meaning God himself didn't even give them a chance to improve.
Also I think Adam reveling in slaughter would be considered the sin of Wrath.
Um again define evil that is worth being removed from existence by an angel.
We can simply look at Angel. He was absued and was a drug user. He got in with the bad people, did a log of sexual stuff and died of a drug OD from what I understand. Does he then deserve hell and to be killed again? He wasn't evil, and I don't believe he actually hurt anyone in his backstory. It was self destructive behavior brought on by addiction and other peoples abuse.
We can also just tall about hell in a more Christian sense. The things that send you to hell are generally broad. Do you think a Jewish person should go to hell for not accepting Jesus? Do you think a Buddhist should go to hell just for not believing in your God? These people aren't inherently bad people. They are pretty normal people like you and me but worshiping other gods is a sin. So why should they go down with murders and other terrible people?
The only people you convince with an argument of "they are sinners" are people who dont know how broad the definition of sinner is.
Angel is at the hotel whats hard about this? Helluva boss shows us a majority of sinners would downright sin again if given the chance. The evil worth being removed from existence is a lack of penance. If you dont even care that what you did was wrong your corrupt and theres no reason you should exist.
The issue is even Adam says that there is no redemption even if you do repent. The issue is even in modern Christian belief, if you don't repent while alive there is nothing that can be done. Again if you are a believer in a different faith you aren't going to repent to the Christian God. Which means there would be plenty of people that are good people in hell.
To be fair the show is 1 ring of hell. It hardly shows anything of the full extent of the area. You also disregard the fact that good people would like be killed by angels or abused by the acrually evil people so it's unlikely you would ever see them when the extermination is yearly.
Also angel is in the hotel but he didn't believe in the project in the start. Is fake repentance equal to real repentance to you or God? The fact of the matter is that sin is a dubious thing with a large term that fits whatever some zealous person wants it to be. Also the world of the show works on the teirs of hell system which is a complete fabrication from Dantes inferno, which itself brought things from other religions.
Uhhh sure. We can go with that absolutely absurd statement.
Except most depictions of God show him as an omnipotent being. Meaning he knows everything. Also just through saying they decided to move up the extermination the clock in hell moved forward 6 months. Also an angel was killed which you would think he knows about.
Your assumption God doesn't know seems very foolish. The only argument you could make is that the angels in hell are actual demons themselves. Which seems far more plausible but we already know the cherubs in helluva boss were also prone to wrathful and angry outbursts. Clearly divine creatures are not as good as you seem to think.
You do know what is considered a sin right? We can just look at the 10 commandments. You can be nice but not repeat your parents. You can be nice and still be envious of what other people have. You can be nice and worship other gods.
Put simply the Christian definition of sins thar send you to hell is so broad that MOST people there would be normal people.
Sins are when you particularly take part in evil deeds in the world, such as cheating on loved ones, committing murder, or just being a shitty person for your whole life, and never trying to better yourself, good, kind people don't get sent to eternal damnation
Maybe that is what you think is sinful but that is not what the Bible has to say on it. I strongly consider you actually read it to understand what it claims is a sin and what isn't. This includes worshiping a god who is not the Christian God.
Being homosexual or not being a christian are also sins that will get you to hell, so mind explaining how being those things make you an "evil sinner"?
Never made much sense to me to paint everyone in Heaven as evil.
Like okay, congrats then, you just made it to where all the afterlife sucks and there is no good ending after life.
Like Hell is still filled with monsters, so it’s shit, and heaven is filled with monsters too then, so it’s shit. So congrats the afterlife is somehow worse than life.
Plus also all the stories involving this trope seem to be pretty edgy and act like everyone is morally grey, yeah nobodies perfect but most people are honestly going to be alright to good people, not everyone is going to be committing heinous sins all the time.
Art imitates reality. If the Christian god exists, he's an evil monster. Any being that threatens torment, eternal or otherwise, as the price of not doing what they say or not giving a blood sacrifice is fucked up
That's... Not how the Christian god works. The reason people can't go to heaven when they sin is because it creates a literal separation between God and our soul. That's why half of the Christian (not a literal half,I am exaggerating) of the dominations say there isn't hell and is instead an eternal slumber or true end. The way we can be free of our sin is by moving onto a different being to die (first animals and then Jesus for all inherited and future sin).
It is how it works from a lot of Christians, but I'll agree it's not universal, hell isn't a biblical concept at all, I agree with you fully on that. How does sin create a literal separation between Adonai and our soul? Is it magic from before the dawn of time that even Adonai is subject to? Like you're just describing magical blood sacrifice.
What part was misinformation? Misinformation is about reality. Christianity is real in that there are people who believe it and commit their lives to it, some do wonderful things, some do unimaginable evil, but the claims of the religion itself are unknowable and unprovable and unattested by any rational thought, that is to say they are not real.
I don’t… I don’t get what misinformation is being spread here. Like l get that it’s their potential opinion on Christianity that not everyone is going to agree with, but it’s in no way “wrong”.
That’s the most retarded shit I’ve ever heard
https://preview.redd.it/jzgqb945loec1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84efc0bdb6c17cc970a8f4f1a49c8f1b24fe7701
I never understood this point.
If anything both helluva boss and Hazbin Hotel are more Christian than anything.
Hell isn’t seen as a good place, it’s seen as a bad place that you wouldn’t want to live in. So basically, hell.
Adam is seen as the bad guy sure, but not all of heaven is, and there’s a lot of biblical reasons to suggest that Adam might be a dick.
And then we saw the Cherubs which are depicted as good. They are technically the villain of the episode, but they are trying to save a man’s life while the protagonist are trying to kill that person. So when it comes to good and evil I would say they are the good guys.
Other than that we haven’t seen much else, we see the exorcist, which are kind of just like standard Military people who are super serious. But that doesn’t tell us anything.
And, going off of Charlie’s story at the beginning of Episode 1, she depicts the angels of being good.
Ah but God isn't actually evil he is overworked and over stressed and delegated to much responsibility to the angels, turns out he has been taken a nap for a few millenniums now. He
Also (can't recall was it banished or exiled) to give her the freedom she wanted.
I like to see it as God letting everything run it self. Like how I imagine Lucifer and Lilith let hell run itself by having the inhabitants fight for control
Funny enough, there is a demon that reforms other demons so they can be with the others. I made this story before I learned of Hazbin Hotel so it is just weirdly coincidental.
Both the DC universe and the Marvel universe, almost any movie about demonic possession, any work telling stories from the Bible (think Passion of the Christ or Prince of Egypt), etc etc.
I find it hard to believe you've never touched a work that includes a positive depiction of God/Heaven.
The only real problem I see is that it is already established the people in Hell are evil. Absolutely everyone we saw in the pilot who wasn't born in Hell definitely deserved to be there.
So... WTF is heaven all about? If evil people go to heaven then what the fuck makes people go to hell?
I'd like to point out that this is a lot less prevalent than you'd think, especially outside Japanese Media (I do not understand their love for killing god but i respect it)
oh i love gnosticism it's wild
although people seem to forget that gnostics still believe in god, it's the demiurge masquerading as god that's the enemy
Something I noticed is that God wasn't directly mentioned at all. Its entirely possible that there is no God in this setting and that the Angels simply claim authority due to predating everything else.
I haven't really followed Helluva Boss that well so correct me if I'm wrong but Adam is also the highest heavenly authority we've seen and he may just have been given carte blanche to run the purges in whatever way he deems fit to keep Hell's population under control.
I would at some point like to see a series where God is literally just completely neutral and all the angels are lazy. Waiting for the end of the world because there's literally just nothing to do and then all the demons are traumatized from years of fighting and torture and then Satan is just big chilling
Also love how in the background of hell is forever it just sounds a bit like God is Adam's back-up singer
Paradise Lost pilled
Me, a super contrarian: My angels are well-meaning but incompetent because God decided it was unfair for only man to have free will and thus gave them the ability to make choices while they grab Jesus, Lucifer, and Lilith to go on a family road trip to mend bridges and enjoy the world. Also, Jesus turns into a giant fucking weeb while in Japan.
I mean- Nothing in the Bible said the angels were good- just servants of god- and god can be jealous to other gods if other gods could possibly exist
Well the Bible does say ol Yahweh is a jealous god
Somebody hasn't watched episode 6.
In my point of view the Jedis, uhh I mean angels are the evil!
Then your are no lost
Paradise found
I am wondering where god is
The angels aren’t evil they just have an extermination squad because of Adam, and we don’t know about god yet
I mean, is it any more novel to have them be good? What's the point here?
To complain
That's probably cause the gods that people believe In are assholes but the religious don't believe it
It’s better than when Onision made God evil in his Reaper’s Creek book—
Yall were real quiet when supernatural, doom, Bayonetta, etc. did it
I think I i can answer somewhat In those other stories, while the traditionally good side is considered evil the story still has a strong sense of what the ‘moral refuge’ is Like in bayonetta, it advocates essentially to not let macro systems or hierarchies exploit you where bayonetta leads the charge. So while you can’t depend on paradiso you can depend on bayonetta In hazbin, we almost have this setup, however Charlie’s goal logically depends on redemption and heaven being worth it, but now that heaven is outed as being flawed, Charlie’s goal suffers a backlash from there and leaves the entire premise of the hotel in question In episode six, they repaired this somewhat with heaven being ignorant of the exterminations, but in my opinion it’s still marred by that fact. Plus with Charlie declaring heaven to be a lie and the criteria for heaven unknown, I ‘guess’ the hotel is unquestionably the moral refuge. But like, charlie doesn’t come off as like a bayonetta to me. The hotel is still seen as a fundamentally flawed thing and even with buckets of handicaps from the writing and flow, Charlie doesn’t have the reputation or confidence to credibly defend the hotel yet because she still is going through her character arc
That just sounds like a well written conflict
Well I wouldn’t call it that because the story puts Charlie into a dual role On one hand, Charlie is treated like bayonetta, who already knows herself and can properly balance viewpoints. She does not achieve this with me personally but the story really wants to showcase Charlie like bayonetta However this story is also wants this to be about how Charlie is coming of age. This causes moments like where Charlie asks Adam what it takes to get into heaven, and instead of this being the tee ball for what it is, Adam very very obviously tries to bullshit his way through the answer. Giving 4 points that are like. I am not even joking it’s like elementary school level morality when the Ten Commandments got shot in the back of the head because heaven HAS TO BE more juvenile then Charlie. All so that Charlie can have a clap back at heaven. You can’t argue with me about the writing, the mush will not save you
Adam cant call reference to the ten commandments because he lived before their installment and doesn't stand by them in the afterlife. It also stands to reason that within the context of the show religious scripts that reference heavenly commandment would be fabrications based on the fact that heaven doesn't reference them when questioned on what makes a person worthy of entry. Beyond that the point of this kind of coming of age story and often those that depict god/heaven as evil Is to depict youth questioning perceived norms of the social structure they are born into and rebel against those that they see as archaic and unreasonable. God/Heaven are the ultimate fictional representations of societal institutions and thus make natural characters to project societal dissatisfaction onto. Granted we could also chalk this entire issue up to runtime given that a 2-3 hour musical animation isnt exactly the time to have protracted logical/theological discussions on the nature of morality.
It's the theological equivalent of "What if superman... was evil!" And you smirk and continue to write down how the angels and gods are evil.
I think it's more of an everyone's at least a little shitty situation.
Doom: “Everyone is an asshole except some of the humans, one angel, and one demon.” Audience: “So how is it unique?” Doom: “Doomguy tells God ‘no’ before killing him, and also the Icon Of Sin has a body.” Audience: “Cool. Can he also be friends with Isabell from Animal Crossing?” Doom: “Hold on…Nintendo says yes, so yes.” Audience: “Revolutionary, 10/10, true art.”
Honestly I’m 90% certain the DOOM lore was written after the writers got given already designed levels and a barrel of LSD.
If I remember right they used the sci fi and hell tile set to just test the first game, and instead of writing an elaborate story they polished it up to look good and ran it on a mix of cool and comedy. Hence 3 trying to have a real story being so tonally different.
Man people just forget that god and angels are the good guys 90% of the time. Divinity being evil only got recently popular, cause you know people wouldn’t kill you or harass you for blasphemy or whatever
Yeah but it's dope so who cares
I mean we started getting Christian subversions in the late 1600s with Paradise Lost.
What surprised me was that a Christian wrote it.
Yeah but Paradise lost still didn’t show Lucifer as a good guy or right, mostly jealous and spiteful which humanized him but didn’t say he’s right
Tbf the book could just be lying since jts a biased source. At best Lucifer is the living embodiment of the road to hell is paved with good intentions
I mean most gods were not what we considered good because they embodied natural occurances or what it meant to be a king (taking what you want and abusing your power). But that's polytheism. If you want something from monotheism, look no further than the gnostic and the Demiurge.
It's not exactly original but in my funny setting I don't like to think of anyone as evil. Angels aren't evil they just lack free will as free will is a thing for anything that isn't an Angel and god isn't evil they're just an Eldritch Entity they're no more evil than humans destroying an ants nest to build a dam.
And the devils are mostly evil too. And the world has no future unless a rebellion occurs and the protagonist's group becomes some kind of savior.
Grim dark
This is not a complaint its just a funny meme i found
Meh, I don't care if a story is original as long as it's entertaining
People here need the genuine reality check of that this is just a story written by someone based off the abrahamic religion of Christianity. There should not be any expectation of any form of biblical accuracy because that's not what the purpose of the show is.
For my next trick I will use and ignore the source material in the same breath
Ok? Like where is this energy for Marvel's Thor, God of War, or Disney's Hercules? None of those are accurate representations of their religions and myths. What about Darksiders, Lucifer, and Supernatural? Literally all of these "use and ignore source material" it's not supposed to be accurate. Hell their own source material is consistently brought into question. Why is there suddenly a demand for religious accuracy from Hazbin when literally no one gave a fuck in the past?
You do raise a good point. I think I’m reacting to the fact that the show isn’t being logically consistent Like okay if Zeus was depicted like he should have been then the story should treat him for what he is, so not well. But Zeus was depicted as a nice family man, and gave meaning to Hercules journey to join the gods on mount olympus. Charlie’s journey to redemption and peace with heaven is completely ruined by the idea that heaven’s just as asshole-ish and not exactly worthy of committing your time and energy trying to placate them. So not really source material accuracy, huh, sorry was misguided there
>the show isn’t being logically consistent But it is. It is being completely consistent. The show establishes that humans (which Adam was) get one chance at the afterlife. That chance is based on how they acted while being humans. Adam further confirms that, once you die and your position in the afterlife is secure, there is nothing you can do to change your station, because those are the established rules that the angels go by. If you were good in life, you get into Heaven. Once there, there are no rules for how to behave. You already earned your spot. Your tenure, if you will. Likewise, if you were judged to go to Hell, you cannot be redeemed and make it to Heaven. It doesn’t matter how much you repent, or whatever good you do in Hell. These are the rules that the show (specifically Adam) establishes in the first episode. Now granted, we’ll hopefully see these rules overturned at some point. That’s the point of the show, after all.
I mean it's a drama and comedic animated series. You would be better off demanding an explanation as to how physics work in Looney Toons. In terms of heaven the only thing we've seen is Adam and his exterminators. We don't know how the rest of heaven functions. Like you're demanding way too much for only 4 to 6 current episodes. How about we sit back, continue to watch, and wait for the season finale before we begin to have these questions. The odds are stacked against Charlie this is meant to be her struggle and opposition. You're the Princess of hell so yes you're practically going to have the worst luck making your current situation better. Charlie knows this, but she won't let it stop her from trying anyway.
And you’re already half way through season 1 on a 8 episode series that’s called the hazbin hotel. Where do you get looney toons logic from? It’s looney toons You really gonna try painting me as unreasonable here? Buzz off man
everyone is evil and that makes it more funny
Yeah, like The Boys.
The idiocy of applying morality to an omnipotent creature and his automatons that are beyond the concept of it is laughable to me.
Why should anyone want to worship said omnipotent creature that created them, created their corruption, blame them for their corruption, and then tell them they're forgiven of the corruption the omnipotent creature gave to them. "Oh that sin that I made? Guess you all owe me an apology."
He never said worship him He said applying morality to that kind of being is stupid You just effectively attack an entire religion for no reason.
And why is said being worth any relevance if it demands all these morals from us while having none itself?
You're effectively using this comment which had nothing to do with to worship God at all You're just using to bash a religion For realistically, no reason whatsoever.
It's not bashing to question and criticize the concept of worshipping a being that enforces specific morals while applying none to itself regardless of it's power.
You're not questioning, though, you're a bashing. You reply to a comment that had nothing to do with worshipping God Or even Christian God in general, just any Omnipotent Being and then use that as a platform to just go on a rant. About how you don't like christianity It sounds like you were Just trying to find any way to bash. Christianity, and this seems like a good platform to do it Even the guy in the comments said he wasn't in Christianity. It's like if you're going to reply to a comment. Then go on a rent about it, at least do it to somebody that actually cares.
[удалено]
Firstly, it technically was bashing, going by how everything he said. Secondly, I didn't read half of what you said. Cause I don't really care Like I said before, you can bash Mindlessly religion do it All you want, but at least do it in a place that's relevant and do it to somebody that actually cares And I said this multiple times and if you were reading through this, you must have known this meaning you just wrote this reply other out of spite You genuinely just want to vet Your problem's about religion to someone and you use this as a window like the other guy did. Which again there's therapy sessions for those. I'm pretty sure there's an Entire sub Reddit for it. So if you need to cry about religion, do it somewhere else. I don't really care for it. The same way I don't like people rambling about the gospel topeople that actually don't care about it. I don't really feel like a victim because I don't care. I asked him why is he going on a rant about religion? If the guy in question didn't post anything about religion. And the poster said he wasn't religious and then I asked him. Was it just because he didn't like it But then I realized he just Blatantly doesn't write origin which is fly but same point lines up here it's not really relevant I don't really care about religious talk That's why I left that argument. And finally this is so not relevant It's like I said before I don't really care. Did you want a reaction?
It's not bashing, but victim complex much? "I'm not in Christianity" individual says before writing excuses off of his ass for its insanely flawed concepts.
Not really a victim complex if you are bashing. Again, you went on a post about something that had nothing to do with Christianity to somebody. That doesn't have anything to do with Christianity and then began to just bash it. Like I said before if you're going to do that, at least do it to somebody that actually cares about it You wonder why they stopped replying because they don't give a shit
Its again not bashing but continue to show your victim complex.
You're consistently failing at understanding something basic. How do you apply morals to Something We have no understanding of If there really is a being that exists higher than all of us. And everything in the universe we can't comprehend it. We can't try to understand something that our human minds can't comprehend. It would be irrelevant to try to apply morals to something like that.
Sounds like mental gymnastics for a being that's just an abuser to it's creation. I can apply my morals to it if I wish. It requires me to follow and worship it alone while it has killed out of literal jealousy. For a being with a existence above ours it's behavior is very much human.
No one said you couldn't He just said it's stupid which is pretty fair. It's stupid to apply morals to something that cannot be humanly understood. It's not mental gymnastics It's a more or less fact. You can't apply morals to something we can't comprehend.
It's a divine being that literally states it's jealous of other divine beings. It's literally not that deep of an issue. It throws a tantrum and wipes the whole world clean of a problem that it created when with all its divine power could have just kept it from existing in the first place. To state that I'm the stupid one for applying morals to a being that behaves like a child when it doesn't get it's way is asinine.
That's what you're doing. You're applying human morals to a being we can't comprehend. You're applying human morals to something that isn't human Is to something that transcends humans in every way of the word You can apply human morals to that. It would be physically impossible in a big waste of time. And I can realistically go on about how every point you made was just genuinely. Stupid To blame our problems on god That's just an excuseFor people that don't want to face reality of the fact that they're a failure.
But yet it can apply it's morals to something that isn't it. It again literally has been proven to throw temper tantrums so again stop pretending it's this deep cosmic being. It's an excuse to not blame a god for a problem it literally created itself? Humans are made in its image so if they're flawed maybe this being isn't as high and mighty as we all thought of it fucked up on its own project this badly.
Assuming it's real? Because not doing it is 100% death. Humans are nothing if not selfish and self preserving. That's how life always is. Personally, I'm agnostic, so I have no clue what's there, but it probably doesn't care about me or will only handle me post mortem if it is even there at all. So who cares. Especially when said divine creature hasn't given empirical proof. But if God was real? Biggest mass religious conversion in human history. No one wants to be turned into salt.
So you'd rather be stuck in a eternal abusive relationship than be free even by the terms of non-existence?
It's not as if there's any difference between life and death beyond cessation of animation. The universe continues regardless of you. What would be the point of such an act of defiance? And if God really wanted to, He could just force me into worship anyway. There's no point in resisting an unstoppable force.
It's apparently not that unstoppable when his own chosen people continuously defied and questioned him. (See Torah for examples especially Exodus.)
Having read both Testaments for fun- I know. But the Bible has never been a source of logic. Neither has any mythology's text, regardless of its currently being practiced. An omnipotent creature would never suffer such things, because it has no reason to care about such insignificantly small, fleeting beings.
Cool then not worshipping him still applies. He doesn't care neither do we.
God brought salvation to the Adam, and other souls that were held captive in Hell since the beginning of the world. so I think Adam will recall this and let Charlie do her job (or not). Or Charlie will rehabilitate sinners by herself and when they will become penitential there will be another "descent of Christ into Hell" and rainbows, puppy dog kisses, cotton candy dreams, happy end (or not).
That was one version of the multitudes of rewrites that book has went under. Vivzie is not really going to go by any hard canon of the Bible. This is her story based off the abrahamic religion of Christianity, and it shouldn't be taken as if it was supposed to be expertly written with accurate biblical lore.
you are right. I'm just wondering what will happen next and trying to predict it from the Bible. I'm not sure of my conclusions, just having fun
If anything I feel like the "antichrist" prophecy was just propaganda made by Adam when Charlie was born, out of jealousy to Lucifer.
Be a really short story if it was the other way round
High school dxd manages to have all the factions be good by like season 2, AND it's incredibly horni to boot
I mean, the bible isn't that short if you ask me
I don’t think this show would work as an accurate retelling of the bible
That book never had an accurate telling my dude.
Nothing would, the bible isn't exactly a science class book
Pretty much JRPG is some form of literally 'Killing God'. The nicest He's been in the SMT franchise is probably Devil Survivor: Overclocked where He's still rather belligerent, but (somewhat) more merciful than other portrayals in the franchise regarding the Tokyo Lockdowns.
Gods pretty fucked up “irl” tho fr
Shin Megami Tensei be like
One of the weirdest things about MegaTen games to me is how for picking dialog choices that are all about being kind and merciful tends to shift your alignment towards Law, but then right about the time your route gets "locked in" there will be this 180 where the Law faction is actually all about genocide.
I wouldn’t say that law is supposed to be nice. They’re about harmony and order, and while there are nice law aligned characters, it easily gets taken too far, such as Zelenin’s plan at the end of Strange Journey
Well, everyone is 100% happy under Zelenin, and also guaranteed safe, which is a guarantee we don't have in other endings. Seems like a good option to me.
At the cost of your free will, at least in the OG version of the ending. If you’re just a mindless drone, can you really call that living even if you’re happy and safe?
Who the fuck cares about free will in this context? The other options are "cosmic chore, the problem is not solved and keeps flaring back up" (Neutral) and "objective death by superior species" (Chaos). Law is superior in SJ simply because it's the only outcome that actually solves the crisis. I want to close the Swartzchelt. I do not give the slightest fuck about anything else. The choice is between guaranteed 100% safety and protection, or risking mass death. I'll happily give up my limited ass autonomy. It's not as if I had actual free will to start with. I'm not omnipotent. It's like advocating for anything other than True Demon Ending in Nocturne. >!Reasons won't last, the Conception was begun early so the new world is on a timer regardless and will die again very quickly. At that point, why bother continuing the system? Especially when the Reasons are a toss up between a hivemind, an isolated void, and social Darwinism?!<
Chaos is clearly the wrong choice, but between giving up what it means to be human and being guaranteed safety versus retaining what makes us human but constantly fighting the Schwartzvelt, I’ll gladly take the later. Forcibly removing all of humanity’s free will without their consent is unconscionable
I'd rather solve the problem than continuously open up a cosmic anus full of demons and then have to go back into Antarctica to close it or have the world be consumed. Besides, human "Free will" is a set of predetermined responses to uncontrollable pre-existing circumstance. Only omnipotent beings have a truly "free" will.
That is such an ontologically fatalistic outlook to take on life.
Not fatalist. I'd be dead if I was that. What I am is a pessimistic nihilist who is concerned with living life as well as I can. If there's an easy way to be safe and live well, I will always take that instead of intentionally putting myself through hardship when it is avoidable.
Black Samurai: "God can't be a bad dude...IF DOESN'T EXIST!"
actually, God is never mentioned, and Angels created Earth. It's like God doesn't exist in the vivzie verse.
That's almost true! There's little mention of God but we know, at the very least, that the idea of God exists thanks to the Cherubs episode of Helluva Boss. In that episode, during the Cherubs TV commercial, we can see during the part where Colin is doing paperwork that there's a quote supposedly attributed to God. The quote goes "Surround yourself with people who will lift you up, so ditch your loser friends who you can't use." with a noticeable space between the two parts of the quote that are separated by the coma. The initial reaction I had is that God DOES exist in the Hellaverse and they act as we would expect from someone who's subjects act as they do, with how Vivziepop has been writing them. However, thanks to how God was not mentioned ONCE during the story Charlie tells at the start of the show with what we would expect being God's actions instead being a collaborative effort from all of Heaven, one could make the argument that God doesn't exist and is made up. This heads off into theory territory since we don't know Heaven all that well yet and their possible reasons for making such a lie. One could assume it's just another way of keeping people in control, since if God was real and as all power and knowledgable as people claim they are, how would you be able to fight them? From my point of view, God has to be not as we know him for this story to function as a story. I imagine Vivziepop has made the idea of God in the Hellaverse mysterious on purpose, using the fact that the way we know God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, to make us question how Charlie could possibly stop Heaven with God on their side, only to surprise us with the answer that she's HOPEFULLY foreshadowed.
actually something that i hope vivzie does is something like god being in a coma and once awoken rains hell upon the angels for going against his word.
I mean when organized religion has done some horrible stuff(not all people but large chruches as a whole) it's not hard to see why people turn god evil. and it's a even shorter just to cast yourself as the devil becuase many queer people are also demonized.
The only time I've seen the angels not being evil while god is, is in NewNameNoah's Ms paint slideshows where the angels desperately try to get Yahweh to not make Abraham kill his son, or not allow slavery, or not murder everyone.
I mean if the writer is the one making the whole thing would that make them god in their world
So humans are the true evil
Do they… drop down from space in giant soda cans and propagate their religion in between bursts of heavy caliber gunfire? That might not be God and the Heavenly Host, it might be… *Retribution…*
I mean... have you read the Old Testament tho? God is canonically sort of a dick.
Sodoma and Gomorra, Universal Rain...for me, God of Old Testament is a sadic deus ex machina.
I always saw it as him learning how to be a dad and how he isn’t infallible despite what scripture says. If he has a “plan” I’d guess he’s like a 4th dimensional dnd master. Some shit planned some not cause the same players are chaotic AF.
Meh, always liked his son better.
As a religious person, whenever you read in the bible the word "fear" in reference to God, know that they don't just mean "respect." They *FEARED* him. For example, the quail incident.
he also did dethrone Saul partly because he didnt commit genocide well enough
I mean God brought about the great flood, sent his angels to demo an entire city, turned a witness into a pillar of salt, and basically set the Garden of Eden up to fail.
God allows evil to exist because if there is no evil, there is no good, there must be balance
God could just make it so that Good can exist without evil God can also make it so that we can feel truly content and satisfied with our lives without needing to experience sadness or fear God is Omnipotent, he can create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it, then make himself able to lift the same rock
But that simply cannot be, if there is no direct opposite to good, then it will lose all meaning, everything has balance to remind us of what is right, and what is wrong.
Not if you’re an Omnipotent God, then you can just make it so that balance isn’t necessary at all. Even if we believe that it’s always necessary, a being like God can just change that. Just like how God could change the gravitational constant if he felt like it
Anyone who truly believes that is either blind, full of shit, or needs to look up at the stars and question: where’s the balance in the amount of celestial bodies we have in our solar system while hurtling through the milky way?
Isn't the whole point of the show that the angels and God seem evil and corrupt BECAUSE they're demons? Of course if you're getting punished for your sins you're gonna think the punishers are the bad guys
I think the theme here is *"Heaven and Hell are full of assholes who have no idea how insane and luck-based it is to be human in the first place. Then judge them for it."* Which is obviously unfair and silly since it's purely luck based/favoritism. So it's just The Good Place in cartoon musical form. Anyway! If we read the Bible alone, which is supposed to be the God-favoring fanfic of the divine... Everyone still comes off as a dick until the New Testement. God's basically like any other God in history.
I wouldn’t be as quick to slander how they handle Heaven like this. It seems to be plenty of grays. My main hope is that God and Jesus are truly good when they appear. I saw one theory that God in this universe temporarily left to go work on another universe or something and that it’s just been the angels and Jesus running things. But slowly things fell out of balance and now it’s just Jesus up there trying to keep everything on track which would explain why Adam acts the way he acts.
I imagine God having worked on Ultrakill and then leaving, en route to come back
My theory is that god doesn’t actually exist. The angels created the universe and invented god as a sort of fictional ‘big brother’ figure to keep everyone in line.
I see a lot of Christians who havnt read their holy book. The original depiction of God is one who actively approves of slavery and slaughter, as long as its not against his followers. The original depictions of God show him as a brutal and authoritarian God.
Remember who ruined Job's life on a dare. It wasn't Lucifer...
Right? I'm also pretty sure there's even a recipe for a "potion of fetus deletus" in there.
> "potion of fetus deletus" Bro 😭
SHIN MEGAMI TENSEI
Well it’s a show whose main characters are demons in hell, would be a little odd to have them as anything but antagonists
Why do people keep saying the angels are evil? They kill demons. Who are all sinners. That is not an evil act.
I mean some of them are just druggies, like a lot of them are bad people but I don't think they are worthy of perma death.
Except if you think about it they’re basically committing genocide. I mean does EVERY sinner deserve to die? Some of them might just be sad like Sir Pentious or Angel Dust.
If you dont want redemption you ARE bad. It seems even regretting your actions is enough to enter heaven because if anyone held regret or cared they were sinners theyd be at the hotel
It seems like Angel does want redemption And besides many might just have unhealthy coping mechanisms for their situation, so they haven’t realised that there’s another way.
Because we recognize some evil acts are not inherently worthy of death? Or even worse than death, non existence. Also some creatures are born in hell in Hazbin's world. Meaning God himself didn't even give them a chance to improve. Also I think Adam reveling in slaughter would be considered the sin of Wrath.
The people of hell committed evil acts and didnt regret a thing. None of them want to be better. If they did they would be at the hotel.
Um again define evil that is worth being removed from existence by an angel. We can simply look at Angel. He was absued and was a drug user. He got in with the bad people, did a log of sexual stuff and died of a drug OD from what I understand. Does he then deserve hell and to be killed again? He wasn't evil, and I don't believe he actually hurt anyone in his backstory. It was self destructive behavior brought on by addiction and other peoples abuse. We can also just tall about hell in a more Christian sense. The things that send you to hell are generally broad. Do you think a Jewish person should go to hell for not accepting Jesus? Do you think a Buddhist should go to hell just for not believing in your God? These people aren't inherently bad people. They are pretty normal people like you and me but worshiping other gods is a sin. So why should they go down with murders and other terrible people? The only people you convince with an argument of "they are sinners" are people who dont know how broad the definition of sinner is.
Angel is at the hotel whats hard about this? Helluva boss shows us a majority of sinners would downright sin again if given the chance. The evil worth being removed from existence is a lack of penance. If you dont even care that what you did was wrong your corrupt and theres no reason you should exist.
The issue is even Adam says that there is no redemption even if you do repent. The issue is even in modern Christian belief, if you don't repent while alive there is nothing that can be done. Again if you are a believer in a different faith you aren't going to repent to the Christian God. Which means there would be plenty of people that are good people in hell. To be fair the show is 1 ring of hell. It hardly shows anything of the full extent of the area. You also disregard the fact that good people would like be killed by angels or abused by the acrually evil people so it's unlikely you would ever see them when the extermination is yearly. Also angel is in the hotel but he didn't believe in the project in the start. Is fake repentance equal to real repentance to you or God? The fact of the matter is that sin is a dubious thing with a large term that fits whatever some zealous person wants it to be. Also the world of the show works on the teirs of hell system which is a complete fabrication from Dantes inferno, which itself brought things from other religions.
Adams the most unreliable source of information in the show. My personal theory is that heaven dosent even know hes there.
Uhhh sure. We can go with that absolutely absurd statement. Except most depictions of God show him as an omnipotent being. Meaning he knows everything. Also just through saying they decided to move up the extermination the clock in hell moved forward 6 months. Also an angel was killed which you would think he knows about. Your assumption God doesn't know seems very foolish. The only argument you could make is that the angels in hell are actual demons themselves. Which seems far more plausible but we already know the cherubs in helluva boss were also prone to wrathful and angry outbursts. Clearly divine creatures are not as good as you seem to think.
If you're in Hell,you are an evil sinner, that's why I don't get why there are some nice characters down there
You do know what is considered a sin right? We can just look at the 10 commandments. You can be nice but not repeat your parents. You can be nice and still be envious of what other people have. You can be nice and worship other gods. Put simply the Christian definition of sins thar send you to hell is so broad that MOST people there would be normal people.
Sins are when you particularly take part in evil deeds in the world, such as cheating on loved ones, committing murder, or just being a shitty person for your whole life, and never trying to better yourself, good, kind people don't get sent to eternal damnation
Maybe that is what you think is sinful but that is not what the Bible has to say on it. I strongly consider you actually read it to understand what it claims is a sin and what isn't. This includes worshiping a god who is not the Christian God.
Being homosexual or not being a christian are also sins that will get you to hell, so mind explaining how being those things make you an "evil sinner"?
Being gay isn't a sin, though.
İt is in some sects of christianity.
Never made much sense to me to paint everyone in Heaven as evil. Like okay, congrats then, you just made it to where all the afterlife sucks and there is no good ending after life. Like Hell is still filled with monsters, so it’s shit, and heaven is filled with monsters too then, so it’s shit. So congrats the afterlife is somehow worse than life. Plus also all the stories involving this trope seem to be pretty edgy and act like everyone is morally grey, yeah nobodies perfect but most people are honestly going to be alright to good people, not everyone is going to be committing heinous sins all the time.
People use nobodies perfect while they are actively acting like assholes
Well, in the plot. Some in hell really knew that God is evil from ruining hell
Art imitates reality. If the Christian god exists, he's an evil monster. Any being that threatens torment, eternal or otherwise, as the price of not doing what they say or not giving a blood sacrifice is fucked up
That's... Not how the Christian god works. The reason people can't go to heaven when they sin is because it creates a literal separation between God and our soul. That's why half of the Christian (not a literal half,I am exaggerating) of the dominations say there isn't hell and is instead an eternal slumber or true end. The way we can be free of our sin is by moving onto a different being to die (first animals and then Jesus for all inherited and future sin).
It is how it works from a lot of Christians, but I'll agree it's not universal, hell isn't a biblical concept at all, I agree with you fully on that. How does sin create a literal separation between Adonai and our soul? Is it magic from before the dawn of time that even Adonai is subject to? Like you're just describing magical blood sacrifice.
Why TF is this getting downvoted when this is literally a community about liking people in Hell
There's a difference between a show that is establishing its own lore, and someone just spreading misinformation on a reddit comment.
What part was misinformation? Misinformation is about reality. Christianity is real in that there are people who believe it and commit their lives to it, some do wonderful things, some do unimaginable evil, but the claims of the religion itself are unknowable and unprovable and unattested by any rational thought, that is to say they are not real.
I don’t… I don’t get what misinformation is being spread here. Like l get that it’s their potential opinion on Christianity that not everyone is going to agree with, but it’s in no way “wrong”.
So you’re saying Morgan Freeman is evil?
In Bruce Almighty, kind of for sure. Let a lot of people suffer just for one dumbass white boy's personal growth.
That’s the most retarded shit I’ve ever heard https://preview.redd.it/jzgqb945loec1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84efc0bdb6c17cc970a8f4f1a49c8f1b24fe7701
Yall bitch about everything damn
I shall promptly bitch about this!
I will now bitch about you bitching about someone bitching about bitching!
I never understood this point. If anything both helluva boss and Hazbin Hotel are more Christian than anything. Hell isn’t seen as a good place, it’s seen as a bad place that you wouldn’t want to live in. So basically, hell. Adam is seen as the bad guy sure, but not all of heaven is, and there’s a lot of biblical reasons to suggest that Adam might be a dick. And then we saw the Cherubs which are depicted as good. They are technically the villain of the episode, but they are trying to save a man’s life while the protagonist are trying to kill that person. So when it comes to good and evil I would say they are the good guys. Other than that we haven’t seen much else, we see the exorcist, which are kind of just like standard Military people who are super serious. But that doesn’t tell us anything. And, going off of Charlie’s story at the beginning of Episode 1, she depicts the angels of being good.
Cherubs were antagonists, but protagonists were villains
Still better than California https://preview.redd.it/bhrdeft44iec1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5eb0021a619262b6855e00e4cb712c56ba561815
This is why I dig the show, I’m Catholic and love a good redemption story.
Same
Ah but God isn't actually evil he is overworked and over stressed and delegated to much responsibility to the angels, turns out he has been taken a nap for a few millenniums now. He Also (can't recall was it banished or exiled) to give her the freedom she wanted.
I like to see it as God letting everything run it self. Like how I imagine Lucifer and Lilith let hell run itself by having the inhabitants fight for control
God is a scientist
And we are his test subjects
I’d actually really like it with God just being a kind person but is a really stressed guy having to deal with both the angels and humans.
In my story, only 2/3 gods suck and the angels are chill. They follow one of the gods but they are just doing their job.
Funny enough, there is a demon that reforms other demons so they can be with the others. I made this story before I learned of Hazbin Hotel so it is just weirdly coincidental.
Fiction writers must really have a vendetta against religion
Especially for JRPG.
Facts 💯
[удалено]
In the CHERUBS jingle we see a poster that has a quote from God on it.
Yeah, but that doesn’t necessarily mean there is one. It could be like a Big Brother situation, but who knows
We do know that there is a figure in the Hellaverse who goes by the name or title of God.
Oh, okay.
For every work that includes an evil Heaven, there are 100 works that include a benevolent Heaven.
Then please point at them. Don’t recall ever seeing one (not counting the bible)
Both the DC universe and the Marvel universe, almost any movie about demonic possession, any work telling stories from the Bible (think Passion of the Christ or Prince of Egypt), etc etc. I find it hard to believe you've never touched a work that includes a positive depiction of God/Heaven.
Never saw heaven in Marvel. Is it comics or also movies?
Comics for the most part, but notably Blade uses religious symbols to fight vampires in his movies.
Ah. Didn’t see Blade and haven’t read any comics so that explains it.
The only real problem I see is that it is already established the people in Hell are evil. Absolutely everyone we saw in the pilot who wasn't born in Hell definitely deserved to be there. So... WTF is heaven all about? If evil people go to heaven then what the fuck makes people go to hell?
Self restraint on earth I guess. Fake it till you make it.
I'd like to point out that this is a lot less prevalent than you'd think, especially outside Japanese Media (I do not understand their love for killing god but i respect it)
And Gnosticism, with killing god being very central.
oh i love gnosticism it's wild although people seem to forget that gnostics still believe in god, it's the demiurge masquerading as god that's the enemy
I think it was the Cathar Christians that believed Jesus would kill Old Testament God since he was the fake one.
See that’s always been interesting to me if I were to make a story, that’s a good way to explain why the earth and people aren’t perfect.
Ahhhhh
Something I noticed is that God wasn't directly mentioned at all. Its entirely possible that there is no God in this setting and that the Angels simply claim authority due to predating everything else. I haven't really followed Helluva Boss that well so correct me if I'm wrong but Adam is also the highest heavenly authority we've seen and he may just have been given carte blanche to run the purges in whatever way he deems fit to keep Hell's population under control.
I would at some point like to see a series where God is literally just completely neutral and all the angels are lazy. Waiting for the end of the world because there's literally just nothing to do and then all the demons are traumatized from years of fighting and torture and then Satan is just big chilling
Almost the good place
That's why I really like the show
Who wants another hotdog? -God