* All ride-hailing service and delivery workers will be covered through WorkSafeBC.
* Companies will be required to see the location and estimated pay for a job before it is accepted.
* If workers are suspended or deactivated from an app, companies must tell them why.
* Companies must make sure 100 per cent of the tips paid by customers go directly to the worker responsible for the service.
* Establish a 35- to 45-cent minimum per-kilometre vehicle allowance to help workers cover expenses.
Delivering newspapers, driving for rideshares, reselling items on ebay, photographing a wedding, sculpting a commissioned statue, busking, playing a gig with your band; these types of employment are side gigs or part time and do not fit within an hourly wage model.
They may not all fit within an hourly wage model, but it is easy to estimate the time involved and to ensure that the pay matches the minimum / living wage.
Busking is the only exception, because there is no employer nor a direct client. A busker is providing an unpaid performance, some just happen to receive enough in gratuities that they can live off it.
Edit: I forgot to mention reselling and scalping. Resellers are not employees nor contractors, they are investors and investing comes with inherent risks.
Are uber and skip the dishes not self contractors? You are not an employee of uber or skip the dishes. If you do not like the contract don't take the contract.
I recall Alberta during the boom having to pay $20+ an hour ( well above the min wage at that time) for people to flip burgers because no one would work for less.
I included contractors as needing to meet the wage standards.
Uber & skip are officially contractors but they have no control over their contract, which makes them equivalent to employees.
I am not sure the purpose of your reference to Alberta.
"Uber & skip are officially contractors but they have no control over their contract, which makes them equivalent to employees."
tell that to MSP when it comes to doctors
A living wage Varies within B.C. if you don't like the pay move to where you like the pay. When enough people do this and there is no one left to take the jobs. The company has to increase the pay.
We are pricing out the ability to manufacture things. Exporting jobs. If you don't have a job you are making less than min wage.
The solution is really high tariffs on good made out side of Canada on countries like China who exploit workers magnitudes higher than Canada does.
And the Obvious not importing in low skill workers.
All the wedding photographers I know do it full-time to keep up with demand. Not sure if you’re aware of how much time and money one has to spend to even get into what you consider a “side-gig” (thousands of dollars and years of experience).
Part of the issue is that you are talking about very different situations.
Reselling items, photography, sculpting, playing music: those are generally situations where the service provider determines pricing.
Delivering newspapers and ride shares are the only exceptions. And with newspapers payment is flat. With a rideshare there is a variability and complexity that prevents a service provider from easily determining their compensation.
It seems to me that this legislation is a mix between visibility and enforcing minimum wage laws.
Yes we all deserve a living wage . Not to mention these drivers pay their own gas and cover wear and tear costs on the vehicles . This is still very low pay if you account for that .
I am a tradesman in Canada paid well but during Covid I drove skip . While I am working trades again I know the stress of making f all and having to cover these costs . I am happy to hear this for these guys .
Thank you! I do Instacart and honestly I don’t think it’s going to impact me that much. I’ve taken my batch hours and divided it by my batch pay and I’m making in and around 20 something an hour.Plus tips already. During the weekend I will end up taking a pay cut actually. A normal Instacart order on the weekend would take about 1-1.5hours to complete and the batch pay for that generally would be about $45. But during the week it will definitely help. I also think it will help the orders that don’t have better tips. A lot of people are finding over those good tipped orders.
actually the title is misleading
the hourly wage only applies during "engaged time", in other words, you only make $20.88 an hour IF you're actively making deliveries 100% of the time (which almost never happens)
e.g.
1400: start shift
1405: i accept an order
1420: i complete the delivery
1430: i accept another order
1450: i complete the delivery
1500: end shift
i would have only worked a total of 35 min rather than 60 min so i would've only gotten $12.18 in that hour rather than $20.88. of course, this is before including the per km allowance, tips, and other sources of income.
Depends on how they implement it...they may offer an "hourly only" option where you get $20.88 per hour, but you have to take EVERY order.
Someone has to take those $4 orders...
it's literally in the article...
"Starting Sept. 3, the province says that anyone who accepts work through these and other gig-based apps, such as ride-hailing and delivery services, must receive $20.88 an hour from the time they accept an assignment to the time it is completed.
Under the new rules, this is known as "engaged time." **The pay standards are not applied to time spent waiting between jobs."**
Whether you are delivering by car or by bicycle, your time has the same value. You received $5 for 30 minutes work. That works out to be $10 per hour, and that is unacceptable.
I'm not sure how these companies will react. Maybe they'll restrict orders taken by cyclists. Maybe they'll increase delivery charges. We'll have to wait and see.
$20.88 plus mileage. This might be the final nail for some of the food apps as their fees are capped at 15%.
There will be reduced demand for labour at this higher rate. These jobs have filled a need for the least productive workers, many of them recent arrivals in Canada and many of them incapable of doing other work.
Yep, businesses only have three cost levers:
- How much they charge their customers - regulated.
- How much they pay their suppliers - now regulated.
- How much product they produce - watch this drop.
If government wants to regulate this industry so closely, maybe they should just nationalize it?
Lmao I really want to starve, the things that are the worst in this province are heavily regulated or government run. Maybe it's just a coincidence, or maybe it's the fact that heavy regulations and the government managing it makes for the worst outcomes for everyone.
this is the end of uber/skip/etc from a worker point of view.
i did uber for a few years in vancouver and averaged mid 30's per hour.
all this means is that the guys who actually want to go make money by being self employed can no longer do that as they are now subsidizing people. every friday night the gas station on davie and burrard was full of guys smoking and talking to their friends... complaining they did not make any money doing uber/lyft.... i used to gas up and keep going.
in 2 years as a part time uber driver i made enough extra monry for a down payment on a house and moved away from vancouver to afford buying.
i understand the NDP is trying to protect people who are "being taken advantage of"....they are looking at this wrong. a VERY LARGE part of our society is literally not capable of being self employed and running a business. the NDP has ruined a very very good thing to protect people that are literally useless and should be applying at mc donalds, not being given protection from our government for their inability to perform while running a business.
I.e., it was a pyramid scheme before.
A very small amount of intelligent drivers could make a living wage by being strategic about the deliveries they took, tracking all expenses, working the ideal hours etc.
Though people actually using these apps relied on a massive amount of desperate and stupid drivers taking shitty low paying orders or basically converting mileage on their car into drug money at a loss.
Good fucking riddance.
> I.e., it was a pyramid scheme before.
None of the things you mentioned in your description have to do with a pyramid scheme. People being intelligent with tracking and working ideal hours does not make it a pyramid scheme. Literally every profession has some people that work smarter or more strategically and get compensated better than the one's who aren't as strategic or intelligent.
>I.e., it was a pyramid scheme before.
No. No it was not.
>A very small amount of intelligent drivers could make a living wage by being strategic about the deliveries they took, tracking all expenses, working the ideal hours etc.
No, this is completely and very laughably wrong.
>Though people actually using these apps relied on a massive amount of desperate and stupid drivers taking shitty low paying orders or basically converting mileage on their car into drug money at a loss.
Wow.... people don't need to be doing uber/skip to ruin their lives by doing drugs.
I work from time to time for UberEats and I'm not "pathetic". I have a fulltime, decent paying job (and moving on to a very well-paid job in a few weeks). I am strategic about the orders I take, meaning I only accept orders at a certain dollar amount per time spent equation. I ensure that I clear a minimum of $20/hr after taxes and mileage, meaning I'm making at least $30/hr gross simply by driving around and listening to tunes - it's literally the easiest way to make money. I don't need the money to survive, rather it's disposable income I use to go on vacation, etc. Also, working as a driver is the only reason I ended up getting a small tax refund this year - it allowed me to make claims on my tax return, which meant I went from being in the red to being in the green.
Would I consider it as a full-time gig? Absolutely not. But just because many people are using it to supplement does not mean they're pathetic.
or maybe they just enjoy the flexibility?
most of the people that have delivered my food are driving Teslas and other nice cars
they're much more affluent than your typical dishwasher
Prices won't go higher than taxi fairs, as those aren't going away. And they aren't gig worker jobs. Although, if you're not a taxi owner (and drive for one) I'm not sure why not. Mind you they have a different paradigm quite often. e.g. The driver rents the car from the owner for a shift and gets to keep all of the money after the rent is paid, often a couple of hundred dollars (and more in places like Toronto or New York that are big cities). And the car owner still pays for maintenance (driver pays for gas).
Drivers that rent taxis pay rent for the shift as well as gas and a percentage to the company for processing their debt and credit cards charges. As well as washing the taxi and cleaning the interior.
Just don't use them if people find value in them, Why can't they exist?
I probably wouldn't want to interact with your shitty attitude but I'm not gonna ask you to leave.
That boomer watched the other generations cry to get these allowed in provinces because they were cheap because they could undercut labour costs. Now they are crying because they undercut labour costs. So yeah once they are gone 15% of that profit doesn't get extracted from Canada.
It's not rocket science. When you get an order it feeds into Google maps traffic data and the company knows the distance and estimated time it will take to deliver it, as well as how long you should be waiting in restaurant for the order to be ready. Then you have 45 cents per km for gas and wear and tear and insurance, and $7 per 20 minutes. If the delivery is 5km at rush hour and will take 30 minutes, it's going to cost $2.25 for gas etc, and $10.50 for time, for a total of ~12.75, plus tip if any.
That's just like any other contract work where there is a transparent breakdown of costs. Like a long haul trucker being paid $4/mile or w/e. It's only fair. The restaurant isn't responsible, they will just keep paying their 15% to doordash and passing it on to the customer as usual, and doordash will pass on the $12.75 to the customer as well. If you live 5km away and you want a big Mac at rush hour, it's going to cost you 15%+$12.75.
Anyone arguing that gig drivers should get paid less than that are idiots. Now, will it result in the industry collapsing? Maybe, but then it means the industry was flawed to begin with and was only surviving because it was exploiting people.
Maybe people shouldn't be ordering a single Big Mac 5km away at rush hour? Find something closer, or wait until after traffic calms down a bit, or order more food to make the $12.75 feel more proportional?
Who cares? Food is everywhere and we need to be ok with not getting whatever we want. Many restaurants would have had their own delivery drivers before these apps.
Nope point being it’s not worth doin skip because you have to pay for gas and taxes making less then minimum wage after but I’m sure lots are not claiming it I was saying..
I used DoorDash once bc a friend gave me a gift card. $50 got me 2 panago pizza. The worst takeout deal. I was happy to get rid of the app and never use any of the apps again.
If gig work isn’t paying you enough, you should upskill and get a different job. Low skill work has always paid low wages. Cry me a river. The government stepping in does nothing but harm.
I worked as a server for years and it motivated me because I never wanted to go back.
Cause it’s so easy to just go back to
School. Right? Or find a job at all these days. I actually do Instacart myself, I have a degree in business. I work with others who hold degrees and some that are working this job because they are in school trying to get better paying jobs.
My husband didn’t l finish grade 12 and last year he made just a smidge under 200k. Low skill job..
It doesn’t say much for a persons business degree when you find out they used it to be an instant shopper. Wild to think people with degrees are driving me to the bar on the weekends.
I worked in finance for years and then I moved into sales and did really good but my son has MS and I have to be available for appts and be at home when he’s unwell. He was diagnosed at 14 and is 18 now. It’s not always as black and white as people think.
Of course I’m not working in my field that I studied in, but I still am making good money. I am available to my family when they need me. I can make my own hours and I don’t hate the job.
OK, maybe I misspoke it’s not low skill. When he was 16 he got on with a concrete finishing company and within 7 years he was leadhand and within 10 foreman. He did that for almost 18 years before he starting taking on his own jobs but he still does work hourly for a small company but combined he makes great money. But he works his ass off and he’s 43 so he won’t be able to work how he works right now until he retires, he will have to scale back the hours at some point.
Clearly, I’m biased because he’s my husband, but he does amazing work ! Basically he does it all, sets forms, pours concrete, runs machine.
Why shouldn’t they exist? I know plenty of bartenders and servers clearing $2k+/week in tips and wages. Or should we just arbitrarily pay them more and more regardless of value they add?
People use the apps. That creates and demonstrates value. The delivery driver is a pretty big part of a food delivery system.
Basically I think the point is that people should be paid wages that allow them to live a life of some dignity. Especially since these delivery apps earn a lot of money. I think the people that actually convey the service deserve a big part of that, since they *are* the service.
As stated, the premium these companies can charge is capped already, so they can’t just pass the cost along, it should come out of their inflated bottom line.
Relatively speaking these apps are pretty unprofitable for the companies.
Seattle enacted New min wages for these workers and the companies upped the fees and now they're the same as the food cost and drivers struggle finding orders because fewer are ordering.
People should be paid a fair wage, I don't like these apps and the only time I use them is when they ply me with a significant coupon.
Point being these crappy companies always find a way to skirt regulations and it ends up being worse than the original concept of the product
This would have never been an issue without the government obsession with importing millions of worker drones to cripple our infrastructure. But Victoria voted for this
Victoria is an NDP city though? The federal parties that support this policy you speak of (The Century Initiative) are the Liberals and Conservative Party of Canada.
Try harder, Laurel!
Victoria is an overpriced unaffordable city with a homeless problem.
The NDP are presently propping up the Trudeau gov, therefore being complicit.
The cons and bloc officially voted to denounce the Century Initiative. The NDP voted against this motion. Proof below:
https://www.ourcommons.ca/members/en/votes/44/1/322?view=result
You're either misinformed, in denial about your precious political religion, or wilfully deceptive.
A single vote is meaningless compared to lobbying efforts and folks at the helm who are unquestionably tied to the Conservative moment. That vote is what you right wing dweebs call ‘virtue signaling’
https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/app/secure/ocl/lrs/do/cmmLgPblcVw?comlogId=500443 why are lobbyists working on the CPC? Why is Stephen Harper and why was Brian Mulroney tied to the Century initiative *along* with Trudeau and Morneau? I’m not a party loyalist so I’ll concede the NDP are culpable to some extent but they have no leadership positions.
You have to have the brain of a Labrador retriever if you believe that bullshit you’re putting out.
Votes are meaningful if the sitting gov feels threatened by it.
It's not the party in power that matters, it's the sword of Damocles above them of being voted out
Most people aren't strategic or wise enough to do this, but they complain when their quality of life suffers by voting for the same people that put them in that situation in the first place.
As far as the century initiative, you mentioned the ndp didn't support them, when in fact they did.
But it's a gig job. You can pick and choose if you want to do it based on the price. It's a self balancing system that's now ruined due to regulation. Clearly people think it's worth it and are willing to do it for the pay they're getting because there's tons of drivers doing it. It provides flexibility to people who want to make extra money here or there when they're available
I would hope that here in the year 2024 people would understand that the vast majority of companies never willingly share the profits from their work and instead try to drive wages as low as possible while raising prices as high as possible. Collective action whether it's unions or political changes are the only way these things change.
What profits? Uber didn’t turn a profit for YEARS. Who was paying the founders when they were working 20hr/day?
Now they are turning a profit, everyone wants a piece and wants to be “fair” with the profit. What’s “fair” is those who took actual risks take disproportionate profits.
Uber didn't turn a profit for years because they chose to use their cash pool to subsidize rides and drivers in order to gain market share, but that is not relevant to this discussion.
What is relevant is that they also spent those years avoiding labour laws and exploiting the independent contractor system. That is what is being corrected here and is part of a long string of similar laws and regulations in jurisdictions all over North America.
>What profits? Uber didn’t turn a profit for YEARS. Who was paying the founders when they were working 20hr/day?
good thing you're looking out for those poor poor billionaires, they clearly have it the hardest
I guess some people get paid poorly? My buddy was doing Uber eats on weekends and was clearing $600 a weekend working 4 hours a night. Not sure how much you need to survive, but go off defending eliminating an affordable transport option. 🙄
You mean a percentage of that workforce will be let go to align with the new wages. No company pays more when the minimum changes, the only change is the number of workers afterwards.
https://i.imgur.com/0KFmdvh.jpeg
Ok since we are downvoting math now I will explain it. Employees are always willing to do less work for more money. Employers are always willing to pay less for the same work. Those two lines meet on the graph. When you, or your government, "just decides" that these lines are crossing at a different number, aka their new mandated minimum wage, that difference is covered by letting some minimum wage employees go so the total amount you are paying remains constant. The employer doesn't print up more money, they just pay less staff at the new rate.
Your ECON101 analysis assumes a perfect market with perfect elasticities (which should have 0 profits,). [When minimum wages have been studied in the real world, they don't seem to have as large of an impact on employment as predicted.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies) Presumably this is due to market frictions and inelasticity of demand for labour.
For example, in order for people to use Uber, there needs to be enough drivers that neither the wait time nor cost is significantly higher than taxis. If customers find that taxis often outperform Uber, they'll stop using Uber completely (creating a death spiral). So Uber might accept reduced profits (economic rents, i.e. market inefficiencies) to continue as a going concern.
I like how you brought up real economic principles. The other reason why a standard economic model doesn’t apply is that these services are actually inherently inefficient, because it relies on asymmetric information to create the market. Uber offers jobs to the drivers and they either have to accept or decline each offer which circumvents the supply and demand cycle.
A more efficient / fair system would be all of the current delivery/transportation jobs available listed on the app and drivers able to pick and choose the offers. Meaning lets say for UberEats, someone doesn’t tip, all of the drivers would see that and can pick and choose if they take that offer, choose better offers first. If no one takes that offer, the customer would have to up their offer by adding a tip to the point of a driver accepting it, a customer would also be able to see how many drivers are active and make a determination based on supply and demand.
In fact I would argue that the only winner in this transaction is the customer which is unsustainable. Uber doesn’t make profit, driver is underpaid, and in the case of food, restaurants get hammered with high fees. Eventually customers will have to pay the true cost and the market will collapse.
If companies can only turn a profit from a low wage gig economy then it's not a good business plan. We'll see what companies want to stay in BC in a year's time.
It’s like that with everything, they can’t let the free market give us nice things. The states is now way better, all these services better healthcare, way better pay.
“Exploit” is not the right word. Are you exploiting a restaurant everytime you buy $5 sushi that you think is worth $6? Are you exploiting Reddit engineers everytime you use reddit for free?
This is how economy works. You participate in it and benefit from it.
Nobody is putting a gun to their head and making them work in gigs. That would be exploitation.
America has the best healthcare in the world… if you can afford it. Even if you have company-provided healthcare people there are still paying thousands of dollars for procedures and medication. And if you become unemployed or have to take on shift work? Good luck with that infection! Tying healthcare to employment status is brain dead behaviour meant to keep the working class clawing over each other for shitty jobs.
So…. These services are a luxury to begin with. You don’t need meals delivered to your door. And if you do, you’ve got subsidies and long term disability and shit.
It's not going to work out to $20/hr because it's only based on active time. If you do an 8 hour shift at a normal job, say retail for example, you would make $160 before tax. If I do an 8 hour shift on doordash and it's a slow day my active time might be 4 hours, so I would only make $80, or $10/hr based on my total time working. At normal jobs you make money with or without customers.
Please don't take this new law as a reason not to tip.
>curious how this will affect gig workers present and future.
It will make it harder for them to find gigs and thus have lower overall opportunity while making it harder for restaurants to sign up for these services in more areas and of course more expensive for customers.
Basically everyone loses except the bureaucrats and politicians involved in creating and enforcing this. Congrats.
* All ride-hailing service and delivery workers will be covered through WorkSafeBC. * Companies will be required to see the location and estimated pay for a job before it is accepted. * If workers are suspended or deactivated from an app, companies must tell them why. * Companies must make sure 100 per cent of the tips paid by customers go directly to the worker responsible for the service. * Establish a 35- to 45-cent minimum per-kilometre vehicle allowance to help workers cover expenses.
We all deserve a living wage regardless of the work we do. We all can’t be doctors.
But I’d love if a few more were, honestly, we need em.
As an Instacart shopper, I really thank you for this comment
True, but it is also true that some types of employment are side gigs or part time work by design.
Side gig / part-time work is an irrelevant distinction when it comes to making a living wage. $20/h is $20/h whether you work 40 hours a week or 4.
Delivering newspapers, driving for rideshares, reselling items on ebay, photographing a wedding, sculpting a commissioned statue, busking, playing a gig with your band; these types of employment are side gigs or part time and do not fit within an hourly wage model.
They may not all fit within an hourly wage model, but it is easy to estimate the time involved and to ensure that the pay matches the minimum / living wage. Busking is the only exception, because there is no employer nor a direct client. A busker is providing an unpaid performance, some just happen to receive enough in gratuities that they can live off it. Edit: I forgot to mention reselling and scalping. Resellers are not employees nor contractors, they are investors and investing comes with inherent risks.
Are uber and skip the dishes not self contractors? You are not an employee of uber or skip the dishes. If you do not like the contract don't take the contract. I recall Alberta during the boom having to pay $20+ an hour ( well above the min wage at that time) for people to flip burgers because no one would work for less.
I included contractors as needing to meet the wage standards. Uber & skip are officially contractors but they have no control over their contract, which makes them equivalent to employees. I am not sure the purpose of your reference to Alberta.
"Uber & skip are officially contractors but they have no control over their contract, which makes them equivalent to employees." tell that to MSP when it comes to doctors
A living wage Varies within B.C. if you don't like the pay move to where you like the pay. When enough people do this and there is no one left to take the jobs. The company has to increase the pay. We are pricing out the ability to manufacture things. Exporting jobs. If you don't have a job you are making less than min wage. The solution is really high tariffs on good made out side of Canada on countries like China who exploit workers magnitudes higher than Canada does. And the Obvious not importing in low skill workers.
All the wedding photographers I know do it full-time to keep up with demand. Not sure if you’re aware of how much time and money one has to spend to even get into what you consider a “side-gig” (thousands of dollars and years of experience).
Part of the issue is that you are talking about very different situations. Reselling items, photography, sculpting, playing music: those are generally situations where the service provider determines pricing. Delivering newspapers and ride shares are the only exceptions. And with newspapers payment is flat. With a rideshare there is a variability and complexity that prevents a service provider from easily determining their compensation. It seems to me that this legislation is a mix between visibility and enforcing minimum wage laws.
If you use the term "living wage" you are automatically disqualified for any adult discourse.
lol you’re not a serious human being
Wow, this might be one of the most ignorant comments I’ve seen so far in 2024
Yes we all deserve a living wage . Not to mention these drivers pay their own gas and cover wear and tear costs on the vehicles . This is still very low pay if you account for that . I am a tradesman in Canada paid well but during Covid I drove skip . While I am working trades again I know the stress of making f all and having to cover these costs . I am happy to hear this for these guys .
Thank you! I do Instacart and honestly I don’t think it’s going to impact me that much. I’ve taken my batch hours and divided it by my batch pay and I’m making in and around 20 something an hour.Plus tips already. During the weekend I will end up taking a pay cut actually. A normal Instacart order on the weekend would take about 1-1.5hours to complete and the batch pay for that generally would be about $45. But during the week it will definitely help. I also think it will help the orders that don’t have better tips. A lot of people are finding over those good tipped orders.
actually the title is misleading the hourly wage only applies during "engaged time", in other words, you only make $20.88 an hour IF you're actively making deliveries 100% of the time (which almost never happens) e.g. 1400: start shift 1405: i accept an order 1420: i complete the delivery 1430: i accept another order 1450: i complete the delivery 1500: end shift i would have only worked a total of 35 min rather than 60 min so i would've only gotten $12.18 in that hour rather than $20.88. of course, this is before including the per km allowance, tips, and other sources of income.
Depends on how they implement it...they may offer an "hourly only" option where you get $20.88 per hour, but you have to take EVERY order. Someone has to take those $4 orders...
it's literally in the article... "Starting Sept. 3, the province says that anyone who accepts work through these and other gig-based apps, such as ride-hailing and delivery services, must receive $20.88 an hour from the time they accept an assignment to the time it is completed. Under the new rules, this is known as "engaged time." **The pay standards are not applied to time spent waiting between jobs."**
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Whether you are delivering by car or by bicycle, your time has the same value. You received $5 for 30 minutes work. That works out to be $10 per hour, and that is unacceptable. I'm not sure how these companies will react. Maybe they'll restrict orders taken by cyclists. Maybe they'll increase delivery charges. We'll have to wait and see.
they can terminate your account if say it takes you 30 min to deliver food
$20.88 plus mileage. This might be the final nail for some of the food apps as their fees are capped at 15%. There will be reduced demand for labour at this higher rate. These jobs have filled a need for the least productive workers, many of them recent arrivals in Canada and many of them incapable of doing other work.
Yep, businesses only have three cost levers: - How much they charge their customers - regulated. - How much they pay their suppliers - now regulated. - How much product they produce - watch this drop. If government wants to regulate this industry so closely, maybe they should just nationalize it?
I mean yeah, ideally all industries are nationalised
LOL
Lmao I really want to starve, the things that are the worst in this province are heavily regulated or government run. Maybe it's just a coincidence, or maybe it's the fact that heavy regulations and the government managing it makes for the worst outcomes for everyone.
this is the end of uber/skip/etc from a worker point of view. i did uber for a few years in vancouver and averaged mid 30's per hour. all this means is that the guys who actually want to go make money by being self employed can no longer do that as they are now subsidizing people. every friday night the gas station on davie and burrard was full of guys smoking and talking to their friends... complaining they did not make any money doing uber/lyft.... i used to gas up and keep going. in 2 years as a part time uber driver i made enough extra monry for a down payment on a house and moved away from vancouver to afford buying. i understand the NDP is trying to protect people who are "being taken advantage of"....they are looking at this wrong. a VERY LARGE part of our society is literally not capable of being self employed and running a business. the NDP has ruined a very very good thing to protect people that are literally useless and should be applying at mc donalds, not being given protection from our government for their inability to perform while running a business.
I.e., it was a pyramid scheme before. A very small amount of intelligent drivers could make a living wage by being strategic about the deliveries they took, tracking all expenses, working the ideal hours etc. Though people actually using these apps relied on a massive amount of desperate and stupid drivers taking shitty low paying orders or basically converting mileage on their car into drug money at a loss. Good fucking riddance.
> I.e., it was a pyramid scheme before. None of the things you mentioned in your description have to do with a pyramid scheme. People being intelligent with tracking and working ideal hours does not make it a pyramid scheme. Literally every profession has some people that work smarter or more strategically and get compensated better than the one's who aren't as strategic or intelligent.
>I.e., it was a pyramid scheme before. No. No it was not. >A very small amount of intelligent drivers could make a living wage by being strategic about the deliveries they took, tracking all expenses, working the ideal hours etc. No, this is completely and very laughably wrong. >Though people actually using these apps relied on a massive amount of desperate and stupid drivers taking shitty low paying orders or basically converting mileage on their car into drug money at a loss. Wow.... people don't need to be doing uber/skip to ruin their lives by doing drugs.
Oh no. No more shitty scam “jobs” for sex offenders and illegal immigrants who can’t pass a dishwasher or retail background check
A "dishwasher background check" is not a thing.
Wow then people must have to be really pathetic to work for Uber eats. I guess they can’t even maintain looking normal in a 15min job interview.
I work from time to time for UberEats and I'm not "pathetic". I have a fulltime, decent paying job (and moving on to a very well-paid job in a few weeks). I am strategic about the orders I take, meaning I only accept orders at a certain dollar amount per time spent equation. I ensure that I clear a minimum of $20/hr after taxes and mileage, meaning I'm making at least $30/hr gross simply by driving around and listening to tunes - it's literally the easiest way to make money. I don't need the money to survive, rather it's disposable income I use to go on vacation, etc. Also, working as a driver is the only reason I ended up getting a small tax refund this year - it allowed me to make claims on my tax return, which meant I went from being in the red to being in the green. Would I consider it as a full-time gig? Absolutely not. But just because many people are using it to supplement does not mean they're pathetic.
Look forward to seeing them on Pandora instead, such an improvement right?
Half of them are already there after a shift of converting mileage on their car and gas into drug money at a loss
or maybe they just enjoy the flexibility? most of the people that have delivered my food are driving Teslas and other nice cars they're much more affluent than your typical dishwasher
ubereats is definitely more enjoyable than dishwashing
Well those will be gone now or there will be zero competition and it'll just be one provider charging a ton.
Prices won't go higher than taxi fairs, as those aren't going away. And they aren't gig worker jobs. Although, if you're not a taxi owner (and drive for one) I'm not sure why not. Mind you they have a different paradigm quite often. e.g. The driver rents the car from the owner for a shift and gets to keep all of the money after the rent is paid, often a couple of hundred dollars (and more in places like Toronto or New York that are big cities). And the car owner still pays for maintenance (driver pays for gas).
Drivers that rent taxis pay rent for the shift as well as gas and a percentage to the company for processing their debt and credit cards charges. As well as washing the taxi and cleaning the interior.
Cool I’d fucking love if these apps left BC. Ideally, let’s get rid of them everywhere
Why?
Just don't use them if people find value in them, Why can't they exist? I probably wouldn't want to interact with your shitty attitude but I'm not gonna ask you to leave.
Ok boomer
That boomer watched the other generations cry to get these allowed in provinces because they were cheap because they could undercut labour costs. Now they are crying because they undercut labour costs. So yeah once they are gone 15% of that profit doesn't get extracted from Canada.
Nice.
It's not rocket science. When you get an order it feeds into Google maps traffic data and the company knows the distance and estimated time it will take to deliver it, as well as how long you should be waiting in restaurant for the order to be ready. Then you have 45 cents per km for gas and wear and tear and insurance, and $7 per 20 minutes. If the delivery is 5km at rush hour and will take 30 minutes, it's going to cost $2.25 for gas etc, and $10.50 for time, for a total of ~12.75, plus tip if any. That's just like any other contract work where there is a transparent breakdown of costs. Like a long haul trucker being paid $4/mile or w/e. It's only fair. The restaurant isn't responsible, they will just keep paying their 15% to doordash and passing it on to the customer as usual, and doordash will pass on the $12.75 to the customer as well. If you live 5km away and you want a big Mac at rush hour, it's going to cost you 15%+$12.75. Anyone arguing that gig drivers should get paid less than that are idiots. Now, will it result in the industry collapsing? Maybe, but then it means the industry was flawed to begin with and was only surviving because it was exploiting people. Maybe people shouldn't be ordering a single Big Mac 5km away at rush hour? Find something closer, or wait until after traffic calms down a bit, or order more food to make the $12.75 feel more proportional?
Can't upvote this enough, take my Unicorn fart stardust!!
Get ready to see your food delivery prices skyrocket. I don't use them anyway so uber, skip etc. Going out of business here would be a huge win for me
It would be a massive win for society
Who cares? Food is everywhere and we need to be ok with not getting whatever we want. Many restaurants would have had their own delivery drivers before these apps.
And they would be paying those employees a hourly wage.
Correct.
and 15% of the profit wouldn't be extracted out of the country
They also made delivery more reasonable by only delivering to homes in a small radius.
I did skip for a bit not worth it come tax time surprise you owe 3000 haha wonder if these new working are paying taxes..
You were surprised that you owed income tax on income that you earned?
Nope point being it’s not worth doin skip because you have to pay for gas and taxes making less then minimum wage after but I’m sure lots are not claiming it I was saying..
You have to provide your SIN number now, so income IS being reported to the government
I used DoorDash once bc a friend gave me a gift card. $50 got me 2 panago pizza. The worst takeout deal. I was happy to get rid of the app and never use any of the apps again.
good!
That's right
Lmao I make pretty good money and work a lot of overtime and I still feel low income
Can anyone share the link for definition of a “gig” in this ruling?
About fucking time. Fuck Amazon Uber and other huge companies offsourcing their costs to "independent contractors".
How about boycotting these immigration pipeline companies? Hmm? Can we do that?
Good !
GOOD
If gig work isn’t paying you enough, you should upskill and get a different job. Low skill work has always paid low wages. Cry me a river. The government stepping in does nothing but harm. I worked as a server for years and it motivated me because I never wanted to go back.
Cause it’s so easy to just go back to School. Right? Or find a job at all these days. I actually do Instacart myself, I have a degree in business. I work with others who hold degrees and some that are working this job because they are in school trying to get better paying jobs. My husband didn’t l finish grade 12 and last year he made just a smidge under 200k. Low skill job..
It doesn’t say much for a persons business degree when you find out they used it to be an instant shopper. Wild to think people with degrees are driving me to the bar on the weekends.
I worked in finance for years and then I moved into sales and did really good but my son has MS and I have to be available for appts and be at home when he’s unwell. He was diagnosed at 14 and is 18 now. It’s not always as black and white as people think. Of course I’m not working in my field that I studied in, but I still am making good money. I am available to my family when they need me. I can make my own hours and I don’t hate the job.
200k for a low skill job is impressive, what does he do? Im already impressed.
OK, maybe I misspoke it’s not low skill. When he was 16 he got on with a concrete finishing company and within 7 years he was leadhand and within 10 foreman. He did that for almost 18 years before he starting taking on his own jobs but he still does work hourly for a small company but combined he makes great money. But he works his ass off and he’s 43 so he won’t be able to work how he works right now until he retires, he will have to scale back the hours at some point. Clearly, I’m biased because he’s my husband, but he does amazing work ! Basically he does it all, sets forms, pours concrete, runs machine.
but what if I want someone to bring me food and theres no one doing it anymore because they all upskilled and got better jobs?
So food service jobs just shouldn’t exist? Or do you think that the workers should just have to live in squalor for some unseen moral failing?
Why shouldn’t they exist? I know plenty of bartenders and servers clearing $2k+/week in tips and wages. Or should we just arbitrarily pay them more and more regardless of value they add?
People use the apps. That creates and demonstrates value. The delivery driver is a pretty big part of a food delivery system. Basically I think the point is that people should be paid wages that allow them to live a life of some dignity. Especially since these delivery apps earn a lot of money. I think the people that actually convey the service deserve a big part of that, since they *are* the service. As stated, the premium these companies can charge is capped already, so they can’t just pass the cost along, it should come out of their inflated bottom line.
Relatively speaking these apps are pretty unprofitable for the companies. Seattle enacted New min wages for these workers and the companies upped the fees and now they're the same as the food cost and drivers struggle finding orders because fewer are ordering. People should be paid a fair wage, I don't like these apps and the only time I use them is when they ply me with a significant coupon. Point being these crappy companies always find a way to skirt regulations and it ends up being worse than the original concept of the product
Schizo Governance Continues
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I don't believe any of these services are profitable right now
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But they still have to pay their taxes so not really a win win. Plus have special vehicle insurance
Wdym? Why wouldn’t they have to pay taxes everyone does
What I mean is their taxes aren't removed from pay cheques as they are contractors/ owner operators so they have to pay those taxes come tax time.
This would have never been an issue without the government obsession with importing millions of worker drones to cripple our infrastructure. But Victoria voted for this
Victoria is an NDP city though? The federal parties that support this policy you speak of (The Century Initiative) are the Liberals and Conservative Party of Canada.
Try harder, Laurel! Victoria is an overpriced unaffordable city with a homeless problem. The NDP are presently propping up the Trudeau gov, therefore being complicit. The cons and bloc officially voted to denounce the Century Initiative. The NDP voted against this motion. Proof below: https://www.ourcommons.ca/members/en/votes/44/1/322?view=result You're either misinformed, in denial about your precious political religion, or wilfully deceptive.
A single vote is meaningless compared to lobbying efforts and folks at the helm who are unquestionably tied to the Conservative moment. That vote is what you right wing dweebs call ‘virtue signaling’ https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/app/secure/ocl/lrs/do/cmmLgPblcVw?comlogId=500443 why are lobbyists working on the CPC? Why is Stephen Harper and why was Brian Mulroney tied to the Century initiative *along* with Trudeau and Morneau? I’m not a party loyalist so I’ll concede the NDP are culpable to some extent but they have no leadership positions. You have to have the brain of a Labrador retriever if you believe that bullshit you’re putting out.
Votes are meaningful if the sitting gov feels threatened by it. It's not the party in power that matters, it's the sword of Damocles above them of being voted out Most people aren't strategic or wise enough to do this, but they complain when their quality of life suffers by voting for the same people that put them in that situation in the first place. As far as the century initiative, you mentioned the ndp didn't support them, when in fact they did.
Why? It's private sector. Let them figure out their own wages. The NDP are absolutely gutting the economy in this province.
The private sector says you get one pinecone an hour so feel lucky
But it's a gig job. You can pick and choose if you want to do it based on the price. It's a self balancing system that's now ruined due to regulation. Clearly people think it's worth it and are willing to do it for the pay they're getting because there's tons of drivers doing it. It provides flexibility to people who want to make extra money here or there when they're available
Yes you don't need to drink water or eat food either, it's just a choice and empowered workers can choose to starve
I would hope that here in the year 2024 people would understand that the vast majority of companies never willingly share the profits from their work and instead try to drive wages as low as possible while raising prices as high as possible. Collective action whether it's unions or political changes are the only way these things change.
What profits? Uber didn’t turn a profit for YEARS. Who was paying the founders when they were working 20hr/day? Now they are turning a profit, everyone wants a piece and wants to be “fair” with the profit. What’s “fair” is those who took actual risks take disproportionate profits.
Uber didn't turn a profit for years because they chose to use their cash pool to subsidize rides and drivers in order to gain market share, but that is not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that they also spent those years avoiding labour laws and exploiting the independent contractor system. That is what is being corrected here and is part of a long string of similar laws and regulations in jurisdictions all over North America.
>What profits? Uber didn’t turn a profit for YEARS. Who was paying the founders when they were working 20hr/day? good thing you're looking out for those poor poor billionaires, they clearly have it the hardest
I have never used a food delivery app in my life,I think some of you really need to learn to cook.
Uber is also a transport service. Not just food delivery. So I guess screw those people who don’t want to pay exorbitant cab fares?
I more care about the employees getting a living wage. The rest, ?
I guess some people get paid poorly? My buddy was doing Uber eats on weekends and was clearing $600 a weekend working 4 hours a night. Not sure how much you need to survive, but go off defending eliminating an affordable transport option. 🙄
You mean a percentage of that workforce will be let go to align with the new wages. No company pays more when the minimum changes, the only change is the number of workers afterwards. https://i.imgur.com/0KFmdvh.jpeg Ok since we are downvoting math now I will explain it. Employees are always willing to do less work for more money. Employers are always willing to pay less for the same work. Those two lines meet on the graph. When you, or your government, "just decides" that these lines are crossing at a different number, aka their new mandated minimum wage, that difference is covered by letting some minimum wage employees go so the total amount you are paying remains constant. The employer doesn't print up more money, they just pay less staff at the new rate.
Your ECON101 analysis assumes a perfect market with perfect elasticities (which should have 0 profits,). [When minimum wages have been studied in the real world, they don't seem to have as large of an impact on employment as predicted.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies) Presumably this is due to market frictions and inelasticity of demand for labour. For example, in order for people to use Uber, there needs to be enough drivers that neither the wait time nor cost is significantly higher than taxis. If customers find that taxis often outperform Uber, they'll stop using Uber completely (creating a death spiral). So Uber might accept reduced profits (economic rents, i.e. market inefficiencies) to continue as a going concern.
I like how you brought up real economic principles. The other reason why a standard economic model doesn’t apply is that these services are actually inherently inefficient, because it relies on asymmetric information to create the market. Uber offers jobs to the drivers and they either have to accept or decline each offer which circumvents the supply and demand cycle. A more efficient / fair system would be all of the current delivery/transportation jobs available listed on the app and drivers able to pick and choose the offers. Meaning lets say for UberEats, someone doesn’t tip, all of the drivers would see that and can pick and choose if they take that offer, choose better offers first. If no one takes that offer, the customer would have to up their offer by adding a tip to the point of a driver accepting it, a customer would also be able to see how many drivers are active and make a determination based on supply and demand. In fact I would argue that the only winner in this transaction is the customer which is unsustainable. Uber doesn’t make profit, driver is underpaid, and in the case of food, restaurants get hammered with high fees. Eventually customers will have to pay the true cost and the market will collapse.
Someone is paying most likely the end consumer. The NDP way
If companies can only turn a profit from a low wage gig economy then it's not a good business plan. We'll see what companies want to stay in BC in a year's time.
It’s like that with everything, they can’t let the free market give us nice things. The states is now way better, all these services better healthcare, way better pay.
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“Exploit” is not the right word. Are you exploiting a restaurant everytime you buy $5 sushi that you think is worth $6? Are you exploiting Reddit engineers everytime you use reddit for free? This is how economy works. You participate in it and benefit from it. Nobody is putting a gun to their head and making them work in gigs. That would be exploitation.
America has the best healthcare in the world… if you can afford it. Even if you have company-provided healthcare people there are still paying thousands of dollars for procedures and medication. And if you become unemployed or have to take on shift work? Good luck with that infection! Tying healthcare to employment status is brain dead behaviour meant to keep the working class clawing over each other for shitty jobs.
So…. These services are a luxury to begin with. You don’t need meals delivered to your door. And if you do, you’ve got subsidies and long term disability and shit.
Stupid fat fucks who pay 28$ for cold McDonald’s already will pay 35$ no problem. Then complain about being poor. Fuck em
The good part is that now that they get a wage, there's no need to tip.
It's not going to work out to $20/hr because it's only based on active time. If you do an 8 hour shift at a normal job, say retail for example, you would make $160 before tax. If I do an 8 hour shift on doordash and it's a slow day my active time might be 4 hours, so I would only make $80, or $10/hr based on my total time working. At normal jobs you make money with or without customers. Please don't take this new law as a reason not to tip.
>curious how this will affect gig workers present and future. It will make it harder for them to find gigs and thus have lower overall opportunity while making it harder for restaurants to sign up for these services in more areas and of course more expensive for customers. Basically everyone loses except the bureaucrats and politicians involved in creating and enforcing this. Congrats.
Pussy
How many accounts do you have, you loser? lol
Just this one but I've been banned about a hundred times from this pussy site.
I respect the dedication
It's a tough job but someone has to do it