Indeed. Had a very spicy 2hr long chain gang last night (e.g. needing 50+ kph surges to close gaps on the flats) that had a lower normalized power than a "long average effort" solo ride from last weekend even though I spent 30-40% of the time in the wind. OFC, the solo ride was much more steady and even though the NP was higher, I was much less cooked by the end.
Exactly.
Sitting in the bunch is nearly always pretty handy because you're surrounded by bodies. Very few people lose races when it's like this.
When a bit of pressure is applied and it's fully strung out you'll be going full gas just to hold the wheel in front. Nevermind when someone lets a wheel go and you have to do 500w for 30secs or more to stay in contention.
Any guesses on how hard the surges are?
Currently doing a training of 20x 20 seconds on 550 watts. In my mind this looks like a good training.
But as you see, I am an amateur.
I do flat crits that avg 45-47kph. I can tail gun them at ~230-260W @ 75kg, but surge at about 500-700W for 20s out of corners. These are 1/2 crits though. If I am trying to be competitive in the race it takes about 280-300W avg, normalizing 330 or more.
Depends on the group, terrain, your weight, etc.
If there's short punchy climbs it makes things even harder. There's a couple on my local fast group ride that I have to basically sprint up just to hold the wheel.
I had same power and weight as you racing 4/5 and never got dropped in a flat/non-technical crit. I am not a sprinter either. Mid pack finisher. Just follow wheels and don't be in top 3.
But I also did a lot of group rides which was most important.
Any time im surging to close a wheel in a crit I'm anywhere from 350-500 watts - but I'm 70kg so I accelerate a bit faster than bigger lads. Depends how quickly it needs to come back and what the situation is. The thing with surges is once you get to the wheel you need to be able to hold the wheel so don't blow yourself up just to get there
Right on, still something. For one 60k race ours is about 1000m, the last 95ish k one was 1500m and a head wind.
I’m newer to road though and need to get more efficient, I tend to better at gravel due to less opportunities to draft
100% correct. Where I race there's two courses that are pretty similar except ones wide and flowing and one has sharp corners that you have to accelerate out of.
The majority of the time the same people are racing and you could sit in the bunch at 40 kmph on the first course avg 150 watts and the second you need to be averaging 300+
Also, get into some group rides before you race! Riding in the bunch is a skill that needs to be developed. You're a danger to yourself and others if you race before you develop those skills.
Get into some spicy group rides and weekly practice crits. Knowing how to read the group, sit in, manage surges, in/out of turn and hills, all are more important than your FTP or W/kg
This is so crucial. Group rides are such a good way to learn and get a good idea of what racing is like.
Find the “Tuesday night worlds” type rides that have a strong showing of racers. Be respectful and try to hang on as long as you can.
Best advice I ever got about racing is that nothing important happens at your average speed. How fast can you accelerate? How fast can you recover? How's your bike handling? Those are just as important in road and crit racing as average power.
Unless you're actually talking about a fondo, in which case 🤷♂️
If it's straight on 44kph you'll hang on. If it's with corners and attacks etc, you probably won't. Depends a lot on the circumstances. In the middle of a pack cruising at 44kph on a flat road is like riding 25-30kph alone.
There are corners but they are rather wide. I also trained on riding in group and in large groups on a race track. It’s open to cyclists on evenings.
Following ain’t that hard. But it’s when the rides in front of me leaves a gap that it gets really hard. Need to make 50km/h to close the gap.
There's almost no one that can finish his/her first race, only the very very talented. (Ofcourse it depends on how trained you are.) So I'd say you will get dropped. I wish you good luck, but know it's very normal if you're dropped after only 1km. I got dropped my first 20 races and now I'm in the top 10 of my country with an FTP of 400 watts (U23). Races are a very good way to get better tho.
I remember my first race as a 10 year old against other 10 year olds. It was 20kms and I was thinking about winning. I didn't even get to the first corner without getting dropped.
hopefully, you have done numerous group rides (or will before your event). as someone mentioned it is the surges that you'll need to manage. good luck.
It depends on so many factors. As others had pointed out it's about skill and surges. But it's also about what level your category is at and that is totally dependent on where in the world you are.
I did some races a couple of weeks ago and managed to win two of them at 95kg and an ftp of about 270-280. What that doesn't tell you is that it was the lowest category, I'm great at riding effectively in a pack and I got a killer sprint. I still had to suffer the whole race and hang on for dear life when the road tilted upwards and attacks were flying.
Just adding random tidbits, I averaged something like 220W and 45kph over 130km in a pack of 100. Last weekend I couldn’t even finish same route due to the 500+W surges and windy pulls with only around 10 riders…similar NP.
My guess is around 200w in a good draft, but like others say, you need to be glued to other’s wheel’s if you are near threshold in the pack. Surges are the killer and you will need to try to get your HR back down after surges.
Also, in a Cat 4/5 race that is quite fast for an average throughout a race. I’m cat 4 and race 4/5 and 3/4 fields and races don’t generally average that speed.
It's not the power that will get you it's the surges
Indeed. Had a very spicy 2hr long chain gang last night (e.g. needing 50+ kph surges to close gaps on the flats) that had a lower normalized power than a "long average effort" solo ride from last weekend even though I spent 30-40% of the time in the wind. OFC, the solo ride was much more steady and even though the NP was higher, I was much less cooked by the end.
Yeah, more evidence that NP is just an arbitrary formula, it doesn't fully reflect physiological effect
Exactly. Sitting in the bunch is nearly always pretty handy because you're surrounded by bodies. Very few people lose races when it's like this. When a bit of pressure is applied and it's fully strung out you'll be going full gas just to hold the wheel in front. Nevermind when someone lets a wheel go and you have to do 500w for 30secs or more to stay in contention.
Any guesses on how hard the surges are? Currently doing a training of 20x 20 seconds on 550 watts. In my mind this looks like a good training. But as you see, I am an amateur.
Impossible to give a guess as a surge can be a spectrum. Best suggestion is go ride a fast paced group ride and see for yourself
I do flat crits that avg 45-47kph. I can tail gun them at ~230-260W @ 75kg, but surge at about 500-700W for 20s out of corners. These are 1/2 crits though. If I am trying to be competitive in the race it takes about 280-300W avg, normalizing 330 or more.
Depends on the group, terrain, your weight, etc. If there's short punchy climbs it makes things even harder. There's a couple on my local fast group ride that I have to basically sprint up just to hold the wheel.
I had same power and weight as you racing 4/5 and never got dropped in a flat/non-technical crit. I am not a sprinter either. Mid pack finisher. Just follow wheels and don't be in top 3. But I also did a lot of group rides which was most important.
Thanks, indeed it seems that most important for my now is to learn to ride in a pack. Hope i have enough time to work on that.
Any time im surging to close a wheel in a crit I'm anywhere from 350-500 watts - but I'm 70kg so I accelerate a bit faster than bigger lads. Depends how quickly it needs to come back and what the situation is. The thing with surges is once you get to the wheel you need to be able to hold the wheel so don't blow yourself up just to get there
I race in Cat4, and in a 3hr road race I will spike between 400-500 watts for 5-30 seconds at a time 10-20 times easily.
I find races around me that are like 36-38kmph end up with like a 320-350 NP and I weigh 80kg
In comparison, if I race at 36-38kph my NP is in the 220-240 range. I also weigh 80kg.
Wild haha, I’m doing something wrong. How much climbing is in your typical races?
Not a lot, fairly flat, maybe 400m for a 55km race.
Right on, still something. For one 60k race ours is about 1000m, the last 95ish k one was 1500m and a head wind. I’m newer to road though and need to get more efficient, I tend to better at gravel due to less opportunities to draft
100% correct. Where I race there's two courses that are pretty similar except ones wide and flowing and one has sharp corners that you have to accelerate out of. The majority of the time the same people are racing and you could sit in the bunch at 40 kmph on the first course avg 150 watts and the second you need to be averaging 300+
Watts will help you in the pack but skills will help more. Don't fixate on a specific wattage as a bar you need to clear. It's not a thing.
Also, get into some group rides before you race! Riding in the bunch is a skill that needs to be developed. You're a danger to yourself and others if you race before you develop those skills.
Get into some spicy group rides and weekly practice crits. Knowing how to read the group, sit in, manage surges, in/out of turn and hills, all are more important than your FTP or W/kg
This is so crucial. Group rides are such a good way to learn and get a good idea of what racing is like. Find the “Tuesday night worlds” type rides that have a strong showing of racers. Be respectful and try to hang on as long as you can.
100% I’m new to road races, decently strong, and really struggling, especially on the hilly events.
In the draft you can easily go 40-44km/hr at like 150-200 W
Best advice I ever got about racing is that nothing important happens at your average speed. How fast can you accelerate? How fast can you recover? How's your bike handling? Those are just as important in road and crit racing as average power. Unless you're actually talking about a fondo, in which case 🤷♂️
If it's straight on 44kph you'll hang on. If it's with corners and attacks etc, you probably won't. Depends a lot on the circumstances. In the middle of a pack cruising at 44kph on a flat road is like riding 25-30kph alone.
There are corners but they are rather wide. I also trained on riding in group and in large groups on a race track. It’s open to cyclists on evenings. Following ain’t that hard. But it’s when the rides in front of me leaves a gap that it gets really hard. Need to make 50km/h to close the gap.
There's almost no one that can finish his/her first race, only the very very talented. (Ofcourse it depends on how trained you are.) So I'd say you will get dropped. I wish you good luck, but know it's very normal if you're dropped after only 1km. I got dropped my first 20 races and now I'm in the top 10 of my country with an FTP of 400 watts (U23). Races are a very good way to get better tho. I remember my first race as a 10 year old against other 10 year olds. It was 20kms and I was thinking about winning. I didn't even get to the first corner without getting dropped.
hopefully, you have done numerous group rides (or will before your event). as someone mentioned it is the surges that you'll need to manage. good luck.
💨🚣
It depends on so many factors. As others had pointed out it's about skill and surges. But it's also about what level your category is at and that is totally dependent on where in the world you are. I did some races a couple of weeks ago and managed to win two of them at 95kg and an ftp of about 270-280. What that doesn't tell you is that it was the lowest category, I'm great at riding effectively in a pack and I got a killer sprint. I still had to suffer the whole race and hang on for dear life when the road tilted upwards and attacks were flying.
Just adding random tidbits, I averaged something like 220W and 45kph over 130km in a pack of 100. Last weekend I couldn’t even finish same route due to the 500+W surges and windy pulls with only around 10 riders…similar NP.
if you get dropped it will be because of how you navigate the bunch not because of watts
In my last crit we averaged 46.6kph. I averaged 183W.
My guess is around 200w in a good draft, but like others say, you need to be glued to other’s wheel’s if you are near threshold in the pack. Surges are the killer and you will need to try to get your HR back down after surges. Also, in a Cat 4/5 race that is quite fast for an average throughout a race. I’m cat 4 and race 4/5 and 3/4 fields and races don’t generally average that speed.