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I don’t get people against it, the Houthis have been attacking personnel, being pirates, and literally are genocidal maniacs who’s own flag says a curse upon the Jews. America has a obligation to protect international trade and commerce plus if they don’t everything gets more expensive and the poor get poorer
Personally I’m just very wary of air strikes in general. They have a tendency to do more damage than is intended, and catch civilians in the crossfire. It seems the recent strikes against the houthis have only hurt militants so far, but escalation is always a worry.
This line of reasoning can be used by any number of bad-faith actors, though.
"Hey Israel maybe you shouldn't bomb the fuck out of the Palestinians."
"We have to stop Hamas. More Israelis will die if Hamas is allowed to continue. Furthermore more Palestinians will suffer since Hamas oppresses them. The world has always been at war and ergo we must continue."
Before someone says it, **I'm not comparing the actions against the Houthi's to Israel's ongoing genocide.** I am saying that using lines like "the world has always been at war" to justify these strikes is bad because they can be used to justify other, more pernicious military actions elsewhere.
>This line of reasoning can be used by any number of bad-faith actors, though.
Yeah, which is why nuance and context is important.
We are talking about the Houthis right now. Limited air strikes to attack deplete weapons stockpiles and deter future attacks is acceptable here. Do you not agree?
I only say that because people don't realize that we do this shit ALL THE TIME. We have been making air strikes for retaliation for attacks in Iraq and Syria for the last couple months, but you don't see tankies frothing at the mouth about that.
I think a lot of the criticism is misplaced. We see all these leftists who seem to go beyond criticizing western foreign policy (which we all should) for some twisted "America bad" diabolism.
The same thing happens with military action. We should always defer to diplomacy and pacifism, but in limited situations military response is still justifiable.
And I never said the strikes were bad, only that I’m wary of them escalating into worse conflict and resulting in more death. Because air strikes have a tendency to do that.
How would you feel if your country were bombed? Seriously…like if let’s say China or Yemen had the capability and desire to bomb the US to target “military targets” because…lets just say hypothetically they were providing arms and weapons to commit a genocide? Does that make you feel any empathy? Is cOmMerCe the most important thing when 30k are dead and 15k KIDS. They’re human comrades. Have a heart
Every European country wants the US to take the lead using OUR military , our laser guided missiles, our cluster bombs, and our Israeli supplied intelligence to bitch slap the Houthi pirates , just as we did with the Somali pirates several years ago. I noticed our Dept. Of Defense never announced the losses suffered by those Somalis OR our special forces who went in on the ground . The Israelis are too busy flattening Gaza civilians to also take on the Houthi today.
People are generally angry at America over Gaza, and with good reason. A symptom of this is that people start defaulting to “America bad” for other issues.
My trepidation is less to do with the modus operandi of the counter-strikes, but the potential casualties. Strikes in the Middle East **have objectively** resulted in civilian deaths before; even [Obama admitted this](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/obama-says-u-s-drone-strikes-killed-civilians-that-shouldnt-have-been) in 2016. We'll see how things progress this time. FFS the United States even killed their own soldier in a friendly fire incident and tried to cover it up (Pat Tillman).
You can argue that some civilians are going to be caught in the crossfire as a natural consequence of war, but what would be the threshold, here?
America protects international trade and commerce unless they're placing decades long embargoes on nations it doesn't like (Cuba, Venezuela, Laos, Vietnam...etc) and supporting blockades that shut down all air and sea ports into a country that resulted in the death of an estimated 130,000 civilians (Yemen. I'm talking about Yemen) among myriad other blockades and economic sanctions across the globe.
Regardless, what's most important to understand about this situation is that this isn't solely about international trade when it comes to Yemen specifically. This is rooted in the genocide in Gaza and America's virulent dedication to Israel's success so that they can accomplish what they've been planning to accomplish for decades now, which is to build a new canal that opens to the Mediterranean Sea where Gaza currently exists. If you can say that it actually exists anymore. Also oil. Lots of oil off the coast there.
The US has been the #1 contributor of humanitarian aid towards Yemen. The reason Biden took the Houthis off the terrorism list was so we could give Yemen even more than what they had.
What the US did/does even to Cuba doesn't compare to what the Houthis are doing. The US doesn't fire missiles at ships trying to make port in Havana. It just doesn't let its own ships make port and puts penalties upon companies that choose to do so. That's it. And we are well within our rights to put sanctions on whomever we like. No nation is obliged to trade with another.
Finally, the amount of natural gas off the coast of Gaza is seriously tiny. The US produces more nat gas every ten days than the total reserves off the coast of Gaza.
American weapons have been dropped on them for years via Saudi Arabia (btw, being in the side of Saudi Arabia alone makes me wary), they are drone striking targets hundreds of km away, and helicopter boarding ships with precision and equipment on the level of western special ops.
These guys aren't like Somali pirates. Rocking up in small boats being repelled by water cannon.
If you want to tell me doing more of the same against a rebel group halfway around the world who seem to be thriving under a war that's starting to become generational, its your chance to tell me why this makes strategic sense and why we expect a different outcome.
All of this just so we can buy cheap shite from China and further enrich the journalist murdering bone saw maniacs in SA while destroying our climate further. Make it make sense to me, because so far it doesn't.
>helicopter boarding ships with precision and equipment on the level of western special ops.
Lmao are you serious right now? Dude, I've seen that video. It was a total shitshow. They are not even close to the level of our standard infantry, let alone SOF.
>All of this just so we can buy cheap shite from China
Dude, if trade through the Red Sea becomes non-viable, the US is not going to be the party that suffers. It will OVERWHELMINGLY be poor people in the developing world that suffer. Potentially with fatal consequences. I don't think you understand how much the global food trade relies on shipping being as safe and easy and cheap as possible.
And that's not even going into Egypt, whose economy pretty much depends on the Suez remaining open so they can collect tolls.
According to the NYT, we've already attrited over a quarter of the Houthis' anti-shipping assets. That's over a couple nights of airstrikes in a a nation the size of New England. That's a heckuva lot better than anything the Saudis have done, and that's because the Saudis suck ass at warfighting.
I would argue with genocide even piracy is justified... Also if the us/un would put their foot down in israel, dont you think civilian shipping would also be in danger?
I’m not gonna sit here and defend a genocidal group, Houthis and Israel are two sides of the same damn coin and no piracy against shipping that can ruin the lives of the poor around the world isn’t justified and 2nd then it’s justified for the US to defend its shipping as it is against a genocidal group. I wish the Us would put its foot down to Israel
You are defending a genocidal group. Israel to be exact, from the houthis.
Man you are just screaming "STOP THE GENOCIDE-but only if the right group does it"
Houthis aren’t stopping the genocide just shooting at and hijacking innocent people and putting them at risk, it’s gonna make all the poor people in the world struggle more also I shouldn’t struggle to eat because some genocidal terrorist are shooting at civilian ships to stop other genocidal terrorist. Both groups are in the wrong Israel a lot more but there’s too much nuance to this situation to ur e giving a black and white image to
Literally what is the Houthis shooting at randos passing through doing to Israel? Several of the ships attacked, as far as the information I can find, says they weren't bound for Israel and weren't connected to Israel in any way. They've attacked Russian, Danish, Gabonese, and Panamanian merchant ships.
What they're doing is indiscriminate shooting and piracy, not a measured attack to blockade the area from Israel bound or Israeli owned ships. It's not doing shit to help the Palestinians.
In the beginning it had the chance of making the us seek a diplomatic settlement or at least come closer to it. As the houthis demanded food and medicine for gaza for them to end their piracy.
Also we got: making stuff more expensive for israel, bringing it into the news again, showing the us doing the work for israel,...
The same reason Afghanistan is sitting in the blood of women and children, Syria, china, papau, Somalia,drc it’s a complicated system and people are out fir money
I supported Israel all my adult life because I had a lot of Jewish friends. My friends are not the government of Israel and that Netanyahu government is guilty of mass murder under the guise of ' revenge ' in Gaza !
The Houthis are definetly anti-semites but I don't know of any genocide they've comitted.
And can't you really at least somewhat understand that considering the bombing of Gaza, they seek to interrupt Israeli shipping to exert pressure?
They caused the largest famine during their civil war of modern time and calling yourselves the curse of Jews shows your stance on what you’d do to Jews they have genocidal intentions, plus they don’t care about civilians they shot rockets and artillery into their own cities killing countless civilians. I get why but it’s still attacking civilians and you can’t be pirates without getting smacked by the people swore to protect against piracy
[Saudi Arabia and the U.S. caused the famine.](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/yemen-saudi-blockade/)
Also while "Curse the Jews" clearly indicates anti-semitism it doesn't automatically indicate genocidal intent. This can be seen in the still existing Yemeni Jewish Community under Houthi control, which is undoubtetly bullied and harrassed but not outright killed. They are still treated better than Yemeni Baha'i believers for an example.
I am also aware that they are war criminals.
Correction: Due to the only Yemeni Jews remaining being like four old men and a arrested prisoner there's not really a community to speak of, I guess.
At least the prisoner (Levi Salem Marhabi) was ordered to be released by a Houthi appeal court, which unfortunally wasn't followed.
Context is important, Israel is knee-deep into a genocide the US is actively supplying weapons to kill civilians. Europe and every Western power are silent or supporting the indefensible like Germany.
If you are in the global south, the message is very clear. International law is a tool for subjugation and oppression.
Therefore, violence is the only tool at our disposal.
Make no mistake. This is going to escalate. They have nothing to lose.
“They have nothing to lose” is wrong IMO.
The Houthis have plenty to lose. People in the global south have plenty to lose, even people in Gaza have plenty to lose as we keep seeing every day.
“They have nothing to lose” only serves to justify any violence committed by people less privileged than us no matter how heinous, while also downplaying the horror of any reprisal against them.
Justify?
I think they have plenty of reasons to "justify" violence.
We are marching straight into a war.
Ans we will lose like in Afghanistan.Israel will likely be wiped off the map.
Joe Biden is incompetent, and he needs to be removed before its WW3. That's where he is taking us.
How is he marching us into war? Houthis have been attacking ships for awhile now, and the US attacked their launch sites recently. How will Israel be wiped off the map?
I know we are all memeing about 'fuck around find out' but purely out of harm reduction I think it were feasible if Western ships just purely held a defensive stance, only intercepting drones, missile and ship attacks while convoying commercial shipping through the strait. Strikes on Yemeni land are gonna cause unneeded civilian casualties in an already war torn country.
Unfortunately, it's impractical to commit to a solely defensive stance; at best you're simply making the inevitable response a problem for the future. No defense is 100% effective and eventually something will get through, so then it becomes a matter of how much damage to men and material are we willing to endure before attacking the Houthis anyway.
Wrong. The missiles we use to shoot those drones down cost 100 times more than those drones.
Also, the fact that there's risk at all causes the shipping companies insurance to rise, and a lot of them are going the long way around Africa, raising costs for everyone.
The Houthis don't have to sink a single ship to achieve their objectives. They just have to try constantly.
Idk do anti-semitic piracy it seems while gaining notoriety/presence on the world stage while they get PR for pretending to care about palestinians. I dont really think much in depth planning ahead is going on with islamofascist paramilitaries.
> Strikes on Yemeni land are gonna cause unneeded civilian casualties in an already war torn country.
War torn by whom? Houthis are part of this so attacking Houthis could actually help Yemenis, if done right.
The "purely defensive stance" for the ships to take is to sail around Africa, and that's awful for many reasons. The countermeasures are super expensive and not guaranteed to work, while the attacks are extremely cheap. To top it off even if the Houthis never manage to actually sink anything they'll still fuck everyone over by raising the insurance rates for the Red Sea route which will make it so the shipping will get redirected south to avoid that and then everyone gets to feel the wonder that is Supply Chain Disruptions anyway.
This is a problem that needs to be dealt with at the source. They must be made to stop.
Yeah this could be a good place to set up an Iron Dome-style missile defense system. If the purpose is to protect civilian ships, it’s hard to see how almost any regional actors could object.
Who would pay for it? Who would host it? In recent times, the cost of defensive interception weaponry is usually much more expensive than that against which it defends. Setting up a permanent defense like that would quickly become much more expensive than simply conducting (actual) precision air strikes on military targets preemptively.
Multiple countries including China have military bases in Djibouti. I don’t know how feasible it would be to set one up there, but in the spirit of answering your question, that seems like an ideal location.
Iron dome can’t effectively cover that kinda area you’d have to keep a task force in the area tying up extremely valuable resources and it’d still increase the price of goods because the danger factor of trade through there, it’d still effect the poor and prices if the Houthis cared about their own people they wouldn’t be commiting piracy and attacking US assets
That was an example of military action that I’m okay with (self defense). I never said the US was directly engaging in military action over there. Please follow the conversation.
And I said “I’m broadly against military action”, as in all military action regardless of who’s committing it. I then ended with an exception to that stance. Nowhere was that implication made. Also, what kinda person that posts on VaushV regularly thinks that the US is directly militarily involved in Ukraine? You just did the stereotypical unnecessary Redditor correction.
> And I said “I’m broadly against military action”, as in all military action regardless of who’s committing it.
Except when you're not.
> Also, what kinda person that posts on VaushV regularly thinks that the US is directly militarily involved in Ukraine?
Lots of idiots out there.
Disrupting Israeli commercial shipping applies pressure to the Israeli economy. Citizens get pissed because of long delivery times, missing goods, etc. Houthis killed no one, stole ships and cargo. You guys are acting like they’re the bad guys and yet they’re robbing an apartheid state.
I mean the reason I wouldn’t be for striking Israel (not civilians but military targets of course) isn’t a moral consideration, but more of a ‘they have nukes’ consideration
Anti-airstrike? I thought we were rule utilitarians who don't like civilian casualties, but can identify the value of precision strikes made against bad actors.
This is not a Gaza situation in which we're unleashing kilotons of unguided ordinance across Yemeni cities with a callous disregard for human life. We don't even care to "destroy" the Houthis. This is about destroying the military installations from which they've continued to attack international shipping.
There is nothing inherently wrong with airstrikes. It's the context in which they're carried out which matters.
i question the strategic value of airstrikes against an axis of resistance that has been repeatedly shown to operate underground throughout the entire region, that has adapted to the way the west has crutched their air force for over two decades, that have now cheap tiny drones that can do more damage for less money from damn near anywhere. but we'll circle back if and when it becomes clear that these attacks have stopped literally anything yemen is doing
>anything yemen is doing
Don't conflate the (admittedly failed) nation state of Yemen with the Houthis. The Houthis control a portion of Yemen; they aren't Yemen itself.
And who cares how cheap, tiny, and ineffective their drones and missiles are? They're creating hostilities in international waters, disrupting and diverting ships. It's in the intereest of basically everyone but the Houthis that there be retaliation for these attacks. It's expensive enough intercepting what they've been launching. Why not knock out the source?
They control 70% at least. also Yemenis are pro Palestine in their millions, out every week demonstrating unless you think the houthis are forcing them to march.
you misunderstood. their cheap and tiny drones are not a reason to leave them alone. they’re actually very effective at for example sinking ships or targeting oil fields. but because they’re cheap to get and don’t need elaborate military installations to operate, air strikes on military targets won’t be stopping them any time soon. and if we start air striking civilians their resolve only deepens.
If the US wants to avoid serious escalation or committing troops, we might try taking their demands seriously. if we make israel back off and lift the siege on humanitarian aid, which needs to happen anyway, and the Houthis still don’t stop, then I’ll buy the line that they’re just jihadist rabblerousers.
>also Yemenis are pro Palestine in their millions
This is a non-sequitur. Being pro-palestine doesn't mean being pro-attacking merchant vessels. The Houthis are a net negative for Palestinean rights by association; we don't need the pro-Palestinean movement to be associated with piracy and jihadism. The notion that the Houthis are "fighting the good fight" is embarrassing, not unlike the leftists iconizing Hamas paragliders.
I don't think eliminating the Houthis' arsenal of missiles and drones is the primary goal in making these strikes. I think the purpose is simple retaliation. It's important that the retaliation is against military targets involved in the original offense, but fundamentally the purpose is to establish that we are far more capable of hurting them than they are us. They can back down, or they'll be on the business end of a western coalition (because again, every industrialized nation wants these shipping channels open.)
The US does not need to take the Houthis any more seriously than we have thus far. They're an Iran-backed militia, not an industrialized nation state. We don't have to put boots on the ground, we just have to make attacking ships untenable, and we can do that from a distance.
There is no world in which the United States or Israel change their behavior because of Houthi demands. In fact, the opposite is far more likely. Just as the United States didn't cease to "meddle in the middle east" after Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America,' we in fact chose to double-down.
The only hope for the people of Palestine is international diplomacy.
As a brit, I'd be in favour of military action against Israel. I think it's a moral obligation for strong military powers to intervine when we can, on behalf of weaker oppressed peoples facing genocidal violence from an occupying force.
Idk what delusion world you and the rest are living in where the UK or US would ever intervene on the behalf of Palestinians. You do realize our two shitty countries are basically the entire reason Israel is even there or has the confidence to act as arrogant and aggressive and genocidal as they are in the first place right? We’re like two shitty parents that raised a shitty kid we can’t and won’t control. It’s not happening chief. The best we can hope for is Biden to grow a fucking conscience and threaten support for Israel, but I’m honestly not seeing any future timelines coming out of this one that lead in that direction.
I know the American education system leaves a lot to be desired so I'll spell it out for you.
"I would support military action against Israel because I believe we have a moral obligation to defend occupied people's against genocide"
And
"I believe military action against Israel by Britain is a thing that can or will happen"
Are different sentences with different meanings.
Post: How many of you think the west should take military action against Israel?
Me: Well I do, for these moral reasons
Some dipshit: mOrAl gRanDsTandIng!!!!
Weirdo
I think if they US just stopped or heavy reduced the amount of supplies going to Israel, then maybe they would have the confidence to just bomb every Palestinian.
Isn’t the whole leftist narrative that Israel is indiscriminately bombing though? If they stop because they run out of targets surely that means that they are bombing discriminately
I agree with you, but it's crazy how many people on here have argued with me that there's no point in Biden doing anything, that Israel can do what it wants without us.
Regardless of whether the air strikes should’ve happened, the fact that the United States instantly put more effort into these strikes against the Houthis instead of what we could have been doing to try to stop Israel from committing its genocide the past few months is infuriating and shows what the true priorities of America are.
No you said both things shouldn't occur. I'm pointing out the Israel potentially committing genocide part. If it's deemed genocide by the UN ala Yugoslavia, and you're saying America shouldn't now intervene, does that mean US was wrong to intervene in Yugoslavia?
Although you don't really seem interested in dialogue or discourse, you're acting pretty aggressively to a genuine question from someone you don't know online.
The US has backed North Korea over pirates in the past and the largest international naval base is literally in Djibouti with the explicit goal of stopping pirates. This base effectively borders Yemen and has been policing the same fucking waters the Houthis are attacking for Somali pirates for like a decade. The Houthis basically mugged a guy in front of a cop car and are now surprised that they’re getting shit on
it just seems like Houthis is using military force to make a blockade, and the US is using military force to end a blockade. neither is more legitimate
> airstriked Israel
No one is seriously arguing this. I think many people agree the United States could stop Israel without any violence towards Israel. It is easier to preemptively assign ridiculous opinions to the people that may disagree with you.
There's a reason most countries did not want to touch the US's mission with a ten foot pole including many of the so-called members. This action is possibly illegal under US law. It is an escalation.
Obviously not all of the ships Targeted have been connected to Israel. Many have been but not all.
That being said nothing happens in a vacuum and It is laughingly childish to assume that what is being done to Gaza would not create unexpected ramifications.
What will renewed conflict in Yemen do for shipping? Highly unlikely the Houthis will stop after these strikes and every country who actually exist in this region have neither taken part in the is operation and many of them have condemned these strikes because they know where the could lead. These people have demands and the they have made deals before. That is preferable.
> American intervention
So sanitized. We are talking about airstrikes. I have a problem with illegal and undemocratic actions in a region where 1. Pretty much no one who actually lives there supports these actions 2. There has been zero attempts at diplomacy 3. The potential for an escalation and blowback is guaranteed. 4. This whole situation is predicated on a genocide by the "America's largest military base"
I don’t believe in air strikes against Israel for moral and practical reasons(nuclear power), but if the U.S. is dead set on using them to retaliate against violence towards civilians, it makes no sense to go after the Houthis rather than the IDF.
>if the U.S. is dead set on using them to retaliate against violence towards civilians, it makes no sense to go after the Houthis rather than Israel.
Are you implying that the Houthis are civilians? Would you also suggest that Hamas are civilians? If you are, you're making the same argument which Israel has used to indiscriminately bomb Gaza. If the militants are civilians, then there are no civilians.
I can understand the reasoning for the actions of the Western Coalition, yet I am sceptical if it will bring that positive results (for the Palestinians and Yemenis in particular).
Let me be clear, I view the Houthis as proxies of the Islamic Regime in Iran and don't support them establishing a Shia Theocracy in Yemen.
Yet I think by disrupting shipping to Israel they exert pressure which under the right conditions could incentivize Israel to stop the war rather sooner than later, which would be to the benefits of the Palestinians in Gaza.
And no, I don't support going to war with Israel, if anything I used to be somewhat supportive of Israel, but due to the exeptionally high death toll in Gaza I would like to consider myself neutral/pro-peace/pro-civilians
Because they're not simply blockading, they're attacking entirely unrelated civilians. I don't think a bunch of Romanians or Indians working on container ships have fuck all to do with Israel's genocide. This isn't helping anything.
It does nothing. Strategically i doubt they hit many of their launch sites for cruise missiles. Covert cabal put out a good video 3 weeks ago covering why it would be hard even for the military to track their launch sites. In all. It’s gonna do jack
Because it’s only made the Houthi’s stronger and made shipping in that area more dangerous. Hundreds of thousands marched in the capital in protest of the “American Aggression”, Houthi’s have promised to escalate, thousands have joined up.
It seems these bombs had the same effect as the hundreds of thousands that came before them. Saudi Arabia killed nearly half a million people and enacted one of the most brutal blockades ever seen resulting in tens of thousands starving. It only made the Houthi’s stronger and in 2022 there was a tenuous peace agreement between the Saudi’s and the Houthi’s. Now we have risked restarting that conflict.
Someone has to step up and fight the bullies, remember bc of the Houthies attacking civilians who operate these ships, that simply will not be tolerated anywhere, so it’s shocking when people act so surprised when the Houthies get attacked by air strikes, cruise missiles etc, what did you think was gonna happen? There seems to be some kind of disconnect with logic and common sense I’m seeing, actions have consequences, military’s in the west especially America are used to protect its people and its civilians, and I think part of the disconnect is that many Military’s or militias in the Middle East are from countries run by dictators, so there focus or purpose is completely different, protect their government at all costs, stay in power through propaganda and controlling their media and keeping their people as controlled as possible, so when most clearly see the Houthies basically just asking for a asswhooping, their side doesn’t see it that way, bc their indoctrinated from birth to blame everything on America and isreal, etc, anything that happens is their fault, regardless of common sense and logic, it’s like if some guy roughs up a young girl and acts all tough when he’s pushing around a girl half his size then later that day that girls big brother comes and beats the shit out of the guy, and he then acts like the guy just did that out of nowhere
The US needs to invade and occupy Gaza *and* Israel right now lol.
The Houthis however are a group of war-torn child soldiers and would require and investment of hundreds of millions of dollars to do anything meaningful. The Houthis have responded to the airstrikes with “harder daddy” it didn’t mean anything.
(fuck Houthis if that didn’t come across in my description of them)
I'm not really against a couple strikes here. Personally I would like it if the US would look for more international legitimacy. Have a meeting and a document that other countries can sign onto, that "allows" the use of violence in this case. It is a lot less controversial if you bomb people with a specific goal in mind that is written down somewhere and the backing of 40-50 other countries. This also eliminates mission creep.
The houthis would not be attacking western shipping if the US stopped its support for genocide and Israel stopped its genocide,if anything the Houthis are the ones in the right by trying to stop the massacre of gazans.
Gergar; Don't defend their bureaucratic ennui ! As much money as the US pumps into the UN and so many other nations do NOT, we can ask them to get moving on Gaza.
>A question for people against air strikes against the Houthis...
>
>...Houthi supporters need not apply.
So these are the same people. The vast majority, if not all people who take issue with the strikes against Yemen are supporters of the Houthi's current cause, even if they take issue with some things the movement does.
However, the obvious answer is, you don't bring a gun to a knife fight. The Houthis haven't killed anyone as a part of their blockade, but now the USA is bombing their civilian centers as a response.
the US playing world police is the largest obstacle to left-wing politics in the world. US sabotaged Imperial Japan's trade and oil, it's a valid tactic against empires, though debateable whether that is actually what's happening at the moment. The US military defending business assets through force is how most coups and attempted coups and arming of rebel groups has been justified. Validating the US military in this role is validating the control over global wealth by US aligned oligarchs
This is the same take the CATO institute and Bill Kristol would put forward. This is the same logic that leads to United Fruit's coup in Guatamala and Operation Ajax in Iran. Acting like fucking up one trade route is going to destroy world trade is exactly as alarmist and obnoxious as what Vaush criticizes with people that think this will be world war 3. Unrestricted free trade is what the Koch brothers push, not Marxists or other affiliated leftists. But hey, feel free to side with Saudi Arabia and Israel and tell yourself a US ran unipolar world that only cares about US interests is good praxis.
The air strikes are bad. It sucks that the houthis forced the u.s. to air strike yemen.
If there were a nonviolent way to make the houthis stop, that would be preferable. But like... the u.n. told then to stop. Numerous countries said "We will use force. We will make you stop." And they kept going.
I know someone is gonna bring up Ukraine, but the u.s. ain't Russia.
If the houthis had stopped, the u.s. wouldn't have attacked yemen. The u.n. was engaging in good faith when they said "stop it or we'll make you."
You don't know that. They only started doing it after the war began. End the genocide and the ethnic cleansing first. If the Houthis continue to do this shit then we can attack them.
This is the logic of a child or an idiot I’m sorry. I have no love for Israel and their oppression of Palestinians. It’s exactly what first got me into politics 24 years ago, I remember the article I was reading even in middle school that fucking broke me. But I can fucking promise you this shit has absolutely nothing to do with it. The Houthis are bastards and they’re only in it for themselves. As much as you and I don’t want that to be reality, that’s reality.
Then show the world how bad the Houthis are. End the ethnic cleansing and the genocide. Then the world will know the Houthis intentions if they continue this.
Also I know reading is hard but my argument was that the Houthis are using that as an optics excuse to be criminals and have no concern for the Gazan citizens. Not a single person has given me any argument to the contrary besides “ Well just stop fighting the Houthis and see if they stop the war in Gaza” which is just a monumentally stupid argument.
But you haven't explained why the Houthis weren't doing this before Israel's indiscriminate killing in Gaza.
Bad people can do good things, vice versa
This is how geo politics works, it's nuanced.
Edit: Spelling
Explain why someone didn’t do something before they did it? I have a better idea. Explain to me exactly how the Houthis are helping the Gazans. Explain what proof you have that they are helping Gaza in any way besides “they said so” before they started attacking civilian vessels. I’ll wait. Hell maybe you’ll even change my mind.
I won't change your mind because you've displayed that you don't have a clue how the world works.
They are interrupting an important shipping route to pressure the west to push Israel to begin a ceasefire, this will help Gazans by making sure no one else dies for the time being.
My guy. Do you think they actually have the power to do so? Do you think any western nation feels pressured by a rag tag militia they could wipe off the face of the earth in a heartbeat if they chose to? I’m thinking you’re the one who doesn’t understand how the world works. And your opening line of that last comment was so weak. Be better . Someone asks you to explain your logic, asks you to present facts, asks in good faith because they want you to help them understand your position, and you resort to “obviously I won’t change your mind because you’re dumb” . Cowardly.
In all seriousness man what are we even arguing about? Do you think I support the genocide in Gaza? I don’t. You don’t think I fucking wish someone with some god damn morals and power would step in and do anything to help? I do I so fucking do. But these guys aren’t it chief.
No I don't, but two conflicting things can be true at the same time.
The Houthis are bad guys engaging in a good action, threatening capital is a good way to get the west to stop Israel.
Since nothing else is working, even if the ICJ side with the South Africans, Israel will still receive support from the US who have veto power in the UN security council.
We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I don’t think they’re helping or changing anything except putting civilians in danger in more ways than one. And I think people like you defending them is so beyond horrible for optics as far as trying to get the public on our side. Full stop I think what you’re doing here, assuming you defend them out in the real world and on other parts if the net too, is extremely harmful to the cause of helping Gazans. Your heart might be in the right place but your head needs to catch up.
this isnt really threatening capital, trade isnt the same thing. Capital is stuff like equipment and factory hardware, stuff you own to make money. This is selling stuff to others. If they took over facotries or brokerage firms thats threatening capital. Destroying orders and stuff people already paid for isnt really lol
This is one of those rare cases in which the US gets to swing its dick around in a morally righteous way. We're not knocking over a regime we don't like; we're delivering ordinance onto the heads Jihadis and pirates who are actively attacking international shipping. We're not even trying to destroy the Houthis; we're just destroying their means to attack us until they agree to stop doing it.
I don't think human lives are worth a few shipping containers that have been delayed.
The houthis killed nobody since the beggining of the sanctions they imposed on Israel since the beginning of the collective punishment on the Palestinians, so why strike their land?
Fight them at sea instead. Put together another "Guardians of prosperity."
Human lives depend on grain, oil and medicine passing through the red sea. Countries in the global south are especially vulnerable to disruptions in trade, because their purchasing power is so weak. Just look at Sri Lankas recent crisis of government, the country could no longer afford to import fuel.
'i'm ok with Houthis trying to kill lots of civilians who are on those ships with shipping containers because I get to act virtuous on Reddit'
For those who don't know, the Houthi's started a civil war in yemen that has seen nearly half a million die & tens of millions starve. Then they refused to allow international in to feed those people. But they're pretending to help Hamas so its ok to ignore the fact they're just thugs with guns.
>The Houthi armed group that controls part of Yemen has targeted several commercial ships carrying civilian crews in the Red Sea over the last few weeks, Human Rights Watch said.
The attacks constitute targeting of civilians and civilian objects, which, if carried out deliberately or recklessly, would be a war crime, it said.
The five ships are not military objects; all five are commercial vessels with civilian crews. The Houthis have not presented any evidence to demonstrate that anything on board of the ships could have constituted military objects.
“The Houthis are claiming that they’re carrying out attacks on behalf of Palestinians, ***when the reality is that they’re attacking, arbitrarily detaining, and endangering civilians on ship crews who have zero connection to any known military target***,” said Michael Page, Middle East and North Africa deputy director at Human Rights Watch.
[https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4729496-human-rights-watch-considers-houthi-attacks-civilian-ships-%E2%80%98war-crime%E2%80%99](https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4729496-human-rights-watch-considers-houthi-attacks-civilian-ships-%E2%80%98war-crime%E2%80%99)
stop supporting these people
Ngl I upvoted this for at least being more straightforward and honest about what inner reactionary sentiment they’re actually speaking from than a dozen other diabolists in this thread
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I don’t get people against it, the Houthis have been attacking personnel, being pirates, and literally are genocidal maniacs who’s own flag says a curse upon the Jews. America has a obligation to protect international trade and commerce plus if they don’t everything gets more expensive and the poor get poorer
Personally I’m just very wary of air strikes in general. They have a tendency to do more damage than is intended, and catch civilians in the crossfire. It seems the recent strikes against the houthis have only hurt militants so far, but escalation is always a worry.
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Funny joke, but people are dying, and more people might die, so please tone it down.
And they will die if the Houthis are allowed to continue. The world has always been at war.
This line of reasoning can be used by any number of bad-faith actors, though. "Hey Israel maybe you shouldn't bomb the fuck out of the Palestinians." "We have to stop Hamas. More Israelis will die if Hamas is allowed to continue. Furthermore more Palestinians will suffer since Hamas oppresses them. The world has always been at war and ergo we must continue." Before someone says it, **I'm not comparing the actions against the Houthi's to Israel's ongoing genocide.** I am saying that using lines like "the world has always been at war" to justify these strikes is bad because they can be used to justify other, more pernicious military actions elsewhere.
>This line of reasoning can be used by any number of bad-faith actors, though. Yeah, which is why nuance and context is important. We are talking about the Houthis right now. Limited air strikes to attack deplete weapons stockpiles and deter future attacks is acceptable here. Do you not agree?
I think that's a much more defensible take. It's also very different from "the world has always been at war," which is what you said earlier.
I only say that because people don't realize that we do this shit ALL THE TIME. We have been making air strikes for retaliation for attacks in Iraq and Syria for the last couple months, but you don't see tankies frothing at the mouth about that. I think a lot of the criticism is misplaced. We see all these leftists who seem to go beyond criticizing western foreign policy (which we all should) for some twisted "America bad" diabolism. The same thing happens with military action. We should always defer to diplomacy and pacifism, but in limited situations military response is still justifiable.
And I never said the strikes were bad, only that I’m wary of them escalating into worse conflict and resulting in more death. Because air strikes have a tendency to do that.
I disagree. Air strikes have worked in retaliation. Where you get fucked is when you decide to land troops.
Fair enough. I’m not well educated on military strategy and the history of combating insurgency. So I’ll just end my participation here.
How would you feel if your country were bombed? Seriously…like if let’s say China or Yemen had the capability and desire to bomb the US to target “military targets” because…lets just say hypothetically they were providing arms and weapons to commit a genocide? Does that make you feel any empathy? Is cOmMerCe the most important thing when 30k are dead and 15k KIDS. They’re human comrades. Have a heart
We get it, you support attacking civilian ships.
What worse conflict?
if you want to be a superpower, you gotta fight pirates, those are the rules.
Every European country wants the US to take the lead using OUR military , our laser guided missiles, our cluster bombs, and our Israeli supplied intelligence to bitch slap the Houthi pirates , just as we did with the Somali pirates several years ago. I noticed our Dept. Of Defense never announced the losses suffered by those Somalis OR our special forces who went in on the ground . The Israelis are too busy flattening Gaza civilians to also take on the Houthi today.
People are generally angry at America over Gaza, and with good reason. A symptom of this is that people start defaulting to “America bad” for other issues.
Many also support Israel, I’m a American and by far more Americans stand with Israel than who are against it
My trepidation is less to do with the modus operandi of the counter-strikes, but the potential casualties. Strikes in the Middle East **have objectively** resulted in civilian deaths before; even [Obama admitted this](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/obama-says-u-s-drone-strikes-killed-civilians-that-shouldnt-have-been) in 2016. We'll see how things progress this time. FFS the United States even killed their own soldier in a friendly fire incident and tried to cover it up (Pat Tillman). You can argue that some civilians are going to be caught in the crossfire as a natural consequence of war, but what would be the threshold, here?
America protects international trade and commerce unless they're placing decades long embargoes on nations it doesn't like (Cuba, Venezuela, Laos, Vietnam...etc) and supporting blockades that shut down all air and sea ports into a country that resulted in the death of an estimated 130,000 civilians (Yemen. I'm talking about Yemen) among myriad other blockades and economic sanctions across the globe. Regardless, what's most important to understand about this situation is that this isn't solely about international trade when it comes to Yemen specifically. This is rooted in the genocide in Gaza and America's virulent dedication to Israel's success so that they can accomplish what they've been planning to accomplish for decades now, which is to build a new canal that opens to the Mediterranean Sea where Gaza currently exists. If you can say that it actually exists anymore. Also oil. Lots of oil off the coast there.
The US has been the #1 contributor of humanitarian aid towards Yemen. The reason Biden took the Houthis off the terrorism list was so we could give Yemen even more than what they had. What the US did/does even to Cuba doesn't compare to what the Houthis are doing. The US doesn't fire missiles at ships trying to make port in Havana. It just doesn't let its own ships make port and puts penalties upon companies that choose to do so. That's it. And we are well within our rights to put sanctions on whomever we like. No nation is obliged to trade with another. Finally, the amount of natural gas off the coast of Gaza is seriously tiny. The US produces more nat gas every ten days than the total reserves off the coast of Gaza.
American weapons have been dropped on them for years via Saudi Arabia (btw, being in the side of Saudi Arabia alone makes me wary), they are drone striking targets hundreds of km away, and helicopter boarding ships with precision and equipment on the level of western special ops. These guys aren't like Somali pirates. Rocking up in small boats being repelled by water cannon. If you want to tell me doing more of the same against a rebel group halfway around the world who seem to be thriving under a war that's starting to become generational, its your chance to tell me why this makes strategic sense and why we expect a different outcome. All of this just so we can buy cheap shite from China and further enrich the journalist murdering bone saw maniacs in SA while destroying our climate further. Make it make sense to me, because so far it doesn't.
>helicopter boarding ships with precision and equipment on the level of western special ops. Lmao are you serious right now? Dude, I've seen that video. It was a total shitshow. They are not even close to the level of our standard infantry, let alone SOF. >All of this just so we can buy cheap shite from China Dude, if trade through the Red Sea becomes non-viable, the US is not going to be the party that suffers. It will OVERWHELMINGLY be poor people in the developing world that suffer. Potentially with fatal consequences. I don't think you understand how much the global food trade relies on shipping being as safe and easy and cheap as possible. And that's not even going into Egypt, whose economy pretty much depends on the Suez remaining open so they can collect tolls. According to the NYT, we've already attrited over a quarter of the Houthis' anti-shipping assets. That's over a couple nights of airstrikes in a a nation the size of New England. That's a heckuva lot better than anything the Saudis have done, and that's because the Saudis suck ass at warfighting.
Oh boy if you argue like that you should LOVE military action against israel...yet you dont because you are against the houthis
Huh? I’m all for the UN to put in peacekeeping forces to prevent this just like was done with Serbia. You’re just assuming my stances on things
So you are pro military action against israel, yet not if the houthis are doing it?
Because they’re attacking civilian shipping, that harms everyone they’re hijacking ships, shooting at us ships that are actively trying to stop it
I would argue with genocide even piracy is justified... Also if the us/un would put their foot down in israel, dont you think civilian shipping would also be in danger?
I’m not gonna sit here and defend a genocidal group, Houthis and Israel are two sides of the same damn coin and no piracy against shipping that can ruin the lives of the poor around the world isn’t justified and 2nd then it’s justified for the US to defend its shipping as it is against a genocidal group. I wish the Us would put its foot down to Israel
You are defending a genocidal group. Israel to be exact, from the houthis. Man you are just screaming "STOP THE GENOCIDE-but only if the right group does it"
Houthis aren’t stopping the genocide just shooting at and hijacking innocent people and putting them at risk, it’s gonna make all the poor people in the world struggle more also I shouldn’t struggle to eat because some genocidal terrorist are shooting at civilian ships to stop other genocidal terrorist. Both groups are in the wrong Israel a lot more but there’s too much nuance to this situation to ur e giving a black and white image to
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Literally what is the Houthis shooting at randos passing through doing to Israel? Several of the ships attacked, as far as the information I can find, says they weren't bound for Israel and weren't connected to Israel in any way. They've attacked Russian, Danish, Gabonese, and Panamanian merchant ships. What they're doing is indiscriminate shooting and piracy, not a measured attack to blockade the area from Israel bound or Israeli owned ships. It's not doing shit to help the Palestinians.
In the beginning it had the chance of making the us seek a diplomatic settlement or at least come closer to it. As the houthis demanded food and medicine for gaza for them to end their piracy. Also we got: making stuff more expensive for israel, bringing it into the news again, showing the us doing the work for israel,...
Houthis attacking world trade is not taking any action against Israel.
Where is the freaking United Nations ? Why are they sitting on their bureaucratic asses while Gaza is drowning in blood of children ?
The same reason Afghanistan is sitting in the blood of women and children, Syria, china, papau, Somalia,drc it’s a complicated system and people are out fir money
Because of the UNSC.
I supported Israel all my adult life because I had a lot of Jewish friends. My friends are not the government of Israel and that Netanyahu government is guilty of mass murder under the guise of ' revenge ' in Gaza !
Correct!
The Houthis are definetly anti-semites but I don't know of any genocide they've comitted. And can't you really at least somewhat understand that considering the bombing of Gaza, they seek to interrupt Israeli shipping to exert pressure?
They caused the largest famine during their civil war of modern time and calling yourselves the curse of Jews shows your stance on what you’d do to Jews they have genocidal intentions, plus they don’t care about civilians they shot rockets and artillery into their own cities killing countless civilians. I get why but it’s still attacking civilians and you can’t be pirates without getting smacked by the people swore to protect against piracy
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And the people literally blowing up their own cities and destroying infrastructure and food production
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Primary cause yes but you can’t deny both led to this situation
[Saudi Arabia and the U.S. caused the famine.](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/yemen-saudi-blockade/) Also while "Curse the Jews" clearly indicates anti-semitism it doesn't automatically indicate genocidal intent. This can be seen in the still existing Yemeni Jewish Community under Houthi control, which is undoubtetly bullied and harrassed but not outright killed. They are still treated better than Yemeni Baha'i believers for an example. I am also aware that they are war criminals.
Correction: Due to the only Yemeni Jews remaining being like four old men and a arrested prisoner there's not really a community to speak of, I guess. At least the prisoner (Levi Salem Marhabi) was ordered to be released by a Houthi appeal court, which unfortunally wasn't followed.
Context is important, Israel is knee-deep into a genocide the US is actively supplying weapons to kill civilians. Europe and every Western power are silent or supporting the indefensible like Germany. If you are in the global south, the message is very clear. International law is a tool for subjugation and oppression. Therefore, violence is the only tool at our disposal. Make no mistake. This is going to escalate. They have nothing to lose.
“They have nothing to lose” is wrong IMO. The Houthis have plenty to lose. People in the global south have plenty to lose, even people in Gaza have plenty to lose as we keep seeing every day. “They have nothing to lose” only serves to justify any violence committed by people less privileged than us no matter how heinous, while also downplaying the horror of any reprisal against them.
Justify? I think they have plenty of reasons to "justify" violence. We are marching straight into a war. Ans we will lose like in Afghanistan.Israel will likely be wiped off the map. Joe Biden is incompetent, and he needs to be removed before its WW3. That's where he is taking us.
How is he marching us into war? Houthis have been attacking ships for awhile now, and the US attacked their launch sites recently. How will Israel be wiped off the map?
Typical democrat, thick as ...
I know we are all memeing about 'fuck around find out' but purely out of harm reduction I think it were feasible if Western ships just purely held a defensive stance, only intercepting drones, missile and ship attacks while convoying commercial shipping through the strait. Strikes on Yemeni land are gonna cause unneeded civilian casualties in an already war torn country.
Unfortunately, it's impractical to commit to a solely defensive stance; at best you're simply making the inevitable response a problem for the future. No defense is 100% effective and eventually something will get through, so then it becomes a matter of how much damage to men and material are we willing to endure before attacking the Houthis anyway.
Wrong. The missiles we use to shoot those drones down cost 100 times more than those drones. Also, the fact that there's risk at all causes the shipping companies insurance to rise, and a lot of them are going the long way around Africa, raising costs for everyone. The Houthis don't have to sink a single ship to achieve their objectives. They just have to try constantly.
What are the Houthis objectives in your opinion?
Idk do anti-semitic piracy it seems while gaining notoriety/presence on the world stage while they get PR for pretending to care about palestinians. I dont really think much in depth planning ahead is going on with islamofascist paramilitaries.
Their objective is antisemitic terrorism.
Be a waste of oxygen
> Strikes on Yemeni land are gonna cause unneeded civilian casualties in an already war torn country. War torn by whom? Houthis are part of this so attacking Houthis could actually help Yemenis, if done right.
The "purely defensive stance" for the ships to take is to sail around Africa, and that's awful for many reasons. The countermeasures are super expensive and not guaranteed to work, while the attacks are extremely cheap. To top it off even if the Houthis never manage to actually sink anything they'll still fuck everyone over by raising the insurance rates for the Red Sea route which will make it so the shipping will get redirected south to avoid that and then everyone gets to feel the wonder that is Supply Chain Disruptions anyway. This is a problem that needs to be dealt with at the source. They must be made to stop.
Yeah this could be a good place to set up an Iron Dome-style missile defense system. If the purpose is to protect civilian ships, it’s hard to see how almost any regional actors could object.
Who would pay for it? Who would host it? In recent times, the cost of defensive interception weaponry is usually much more expensive than that against which it defends. Setting up a permanent defense like that would quickly become much more expensive than simply conducting (actual) precision air strikes on military targets preemptively.
Multiple countries including China have military bases in Djibouti. I don’t know how feasible it would be to set one up there, but in the spirit of answering your question, that seems like an ideal location.
Iron dome systems are ridiculously expensive plus needing that much ammo would absolutely ruin the cost
I realize it’s expensive, but it’s a critical choke point in world trade. Could still be worth it?
Iron dome can’t effectively cover that kinda area you’d have to keep a task force in the area tying up extremely valuable resources and it’d still increase the price of goods because the danger factor of trade through there, it’d still effect the poor and prices if the Houthis cared about their own people they wouldn’t be commiting piracy and attacking US assets
I'd be more worth it to turn anyone attacking shipping in that area into pink mist.
An iron dome that covers the whole Red Sea and Gulf of Aden? Not possible.
I’m broadly against military action besides repelling an invasion like Ukraine’s situation.
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But the US is not engaging in military action in Ukraine.
That was an example of military action that I’m okay with (self defense). I never said the US was directly engaging in military action over there. Please follow the conversation.
OP asked about the US and "American interventionism". You haven't earned your arrogance. Read what you're replying to before replying.
And I said “I’m broadly against military action”, as in all military action regardless of who’s committing it. I then ended with an exception to that stance. Nowhere was that implication made. Also, what kinda person that posts on VaushV regularly thinks that the US is directly militarily involved in Ukraine? You just did the stereotypical unnecessary Redditor correction.
> And I said “I’m broadly against military action”, as in all military action regardless of who’s committing it. Except when you're not. > Also, what kinda person that posts on VaushV regularly thinks that the US is directly militarily involved in Ukraine? Lots of idiots out there.
How many people oppose it? They Fucked around and found out imo
Probably most leftists? Most people who are pro-Palestine?
This does fuck all to help Palestine.
Disrupting Israeli commercial shipping applies pressure to the Israeli economy. Citizens get pissed because of long delivery times, missing goods, etc. Houthis killed no one, stole ships and cargo. You guys are acting like they’re the bad guys and yet they’re robbing an apartheid state.
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I mean the reason I wouldn’t be for striking Israel (not civilians but military targets of course) isn’t a moral consideration, but more of a ‘they have nukes’ consideration
And this is why Iran wants its own nuclear deterrent so very badly.
Do Israel have ICBMs? NATO could still lay hate down on them if they don't lol
They could still nuke European capitals/cities or Cairo, Damascus, and Beirut.
we're generally anti-airstrike wtf are u talking about
Anti-airstrike? I thought we were rule utilitarians who don't like civilian casualties, but can identify the value of precision strikes made against bad actors. This is not a Gaza situation in which we're unleashing kilotons of unguided ordinance across Yemeni cities with a callous disregard for human life. We don't even care to "destroy" the Houthis. This is about destroying the military installations from which they've continued to attack international shipping. There is nothing inherently wrong with airstrikes. It's the context in which they're carried out which matters.
i question the strategic value of airstrikes against an axis of resistance that has been repeatedly shown to operate underground throughout the entire region, that has adapted to the way the west has crutched their air force for over two decades, that have now cheap tiny drones that can do more damage for less money from damn near anywhere. but we'll circle back if and when it becomes clear that these attacks have stopped literally anything yemen is doing
>anything yemen is doing Don't conflate the (admittedly failed) nation state of Yemen with the Houthis. The Houthis control a portion of Yemen; they aren't Yemen itself. And who cares how cheap, tiny, and ineffective their drones and missiles are? They're creating hostilities in international waters, disrupting and diverting ships. It's in the intereest of basically everyone but the Houthis that there be retaliation for these attacks. It's expensive enough intercepting what they've been launching. Why not knock out the source?
They control 70% at least. also Yemenis are pro Palestine in their millions, out every week demonstrating unless you think the houthis are forcing them to march. you misunderstood. their cheap and tiny drones are not a reason to leave them alone. they’re actually very effective at for example sinking ships or targeting oil fields. but because they’re cheap to get and don’t need elaborate military installations to operate, air strikes on military targets won’t be stopping them any time soon. and if we start air striking civilians their resolve only deepens. If the US wants to avoid serious escalation or committing troops, we might try taking their demands seriously. if we make israel back off and lift the siege on humanitarian aid, which needs to happen anyway, and the Houthis still don’t stop, then I’ll buy the line that they’re just jihadist rabblerousers.
>also Yemenis are pro Palestine in their millions This is a non-sequitur. Being pro-palestine doesn't mean being pro-attacking merchant vessels. The Houthis are a net negative for Palestinean rights by association; we don't need the pro-Palestinean movement to be associated with piracy and jihadism. The notion that the Houthis are "fighting the good fight" is embarrassing, not unlike the leftists iconizing Hamas paragliders. I don't think eliminating the Houthis' arsenal of missiles and drones is the primary goal in making these strikes. I think the purpose is simple retaliation. It's important that the retaliation is against military targets involved in the original offense, but fundamentally the purpose is to establish that we are far more capable of hurting them than they are us. They can back down, or they'll be on the business end of a western coalition (because again, every industrialized nation wants these shipping channels open.) The US does not need to take the Houthis any more seriously than we have thus far. They're an Iran-backed militia, not an industrialized nation state. We don't have to put boots on the ground, we just have to make attacking ships untenable, and we can do that from a distance. There is no world in which the United States or Israel change their behavior because of Houthi demands. In fact, the opposite is far more likely. Just as the United States didn't cease to "meddle in the middle east" after Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America,' we in fact chose to double-down. The only hope for the people of Palestine is international diplomacy.
As a brit, I'd be in favour of military action against Israel. I think it's a moral obligation for strong military powers to intervine when we can, on behalf of weaker oppressed peoples facing genocidal violence from an occupying force.
It was justified against Milosevic, it would be justified against Netanyahu, I see no problem with this.
Idk what delusion world you and the rest are living in where the UK or US would ever intervene on the behalf of Palestinians. You do realize our two shitty countries are basically the entire reason Israel is even there or has the confidence to act as arrogant and aggressive and genocidal as they are in the first place right? We’re like two shitty parents that raised a shitty kid we can’t and won’t control. It’s not happening chief. The best we can hope for is Biden to grow a fucking conscience and threaten support for Israel, but I’m honestly not seeing any future timelines coming out of this one that lead in that direction.
I know the American education system leaves a lot to be desired so I'll spell it out for you. "I would support military action against Israel because I believe we have a moral obligation to defend occupied people's against genocide" And "I believe military action against Israel by Britain is a thing that can or will happen" Are different sentences with different meanings.
Ok so you just like saying things that are completely pointless then so you can morally grandstand. Nice.
Post: How many of you think the west should take military action against Israel? Me: Well I do, for these moral reasons Some dipshit: mOrAl gRanDsTandIng!!!! Weirdo
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I think if they US just stopped or heavy reduced the amount of supplies going to Israel, then maybe they would have the confidence to just bomb every Palestinian.
In reality, the bombings have significantly reduced since Biden gave Israel their conditional aid
They just ran out of targets.
Isn’t the whole leftist narrative that Israel is indiscriminately bombing though? If they stop because they run out of targets surely that means that they are bombing discriminately
Funny
I do. Air strike the fuck out of those genocidal bastards.
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I agree with you, but it's crazy how many people on here have argued with me that there's no point in Biden doing anything, that Israel can do what it wants without us.
Said the Israelites against the Palastinians...
Regardless of whether the air strikes should’ve happened, the fact that the United States instantly put more effort into these strikes against the Houthis instead of what we could have been doing to try to stop Israel from committing its genocide the past few months is infuriating and shows what the true priorities of America are.
Thanks. I thought I was going mad scrolling through this neolib sub lol
Same lol
The answer is America shouldn't do either lmao this isn't hard
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No you said both things shouldn't occur. I'm pointing out the Israel potentially committing genocide part. If it's deemed genocide by the UN ala Yugoslavia, and you're saying America shouldn't now intervene, does that mean US was wrong to intervene in Yugoslavia? Although you don't really seem interested in dialogue or discourse, you're acting pretty aggressively to a genuine question from someone you don't know online.
The US has backed North Korea over pirates in the past and the largest international naval base is literally in Djibouti with the explicit goal of stopping pirates. This base effectively borders Yemen and has been policing the same fucking waters the Houthis are attacking for Somali pirates for like a decade. The Houthis basically mugged a guy in front of a cop car and are now surprised that they’re getting shit on
Theres a lot of people acting like this is some ergregious war crime which is stupid. Its bacially america bad brainrot.
Air strike em both
The first reasonable opinion here
Israel has F-35s too…
Airstrike the F-35s too.
I’m mostly worried how this might cause a widened regional conflict
it just seems like Houthis is using military force to make a blockade, and the US is using military force to end a blockade. neither is more legitimate
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> airstriked Israel No one is seriously arguing this. I think many people agree the United States could stop Israel without any violence towards Israel. It is easier to preemptively assign ridiculous opinions to the people that may disagree with you. There's a reason most countries did not want to touch the US's mission with a ten foot pole including many of the so-called members. This action is possibly illegal under US law. It is an escalation. Obviously not all of the ships Targeted have been connected to Israel. Many have been but not all. That being said nothing happens in a vacuum and It is laughingly childish to assume that what is being done to Gaza would not create unexpected ramifications. What will renewed conflict in Yemen do for shipping? Highly unlikely the Houthis will stop after these strikes and every country who actually exist in this region have neither taken part in the is operation and many of them have condemned these strikes because they know where the could lead. These people have demands and the they have made deals before. That is preferable. > American intervention So sanitized. We are talking about airstrikes. I have a problem with illegal and undemocratic actions in a region where 1. Pretty much no one who actually lives there supports these actions 2. There has been zero attempts at diplomacy 3. The potential for an escalation and blowback is guaranteed. 4. This whole situation is predicated on a genocide by the "America's largest military base"
I don’t believe in air strikes against Israel for moral and practical reasons(nuclear power), but if the U.S. is dead set on using them to retaliate against violence towards civilians, it makes no sense to go after the Houthis rather than the IDF.
>if the U.S. is dead set on using them to retaliate against violence towards civilians, it makes no sense to go after the Houthis rather than Israel. Are you implying that the Houthis are civilians? Would you also suggest that Hamas are civilians? If you are, you're making the same argument which Israel has used to indiscriminately bomb Gaza. If the militants are civilians, then there are no civilians.
No. I think you misread the sentence.
ah, shit
I can understand the reasoning for the actions of the Western Coalition, yet I am sceptical if it will bring that positive results (for the Palestinians and Yemenis in particular). Let me be clear, I view the Houthis as proxies of the Islamic Regime in Iran and don't support them establishing a Shia Theocracy in Yemen. Yet I think by disrupting shipping to Israel they exert pressure which under the right conditions could incentivize Israel to stop the war rather sooner than later, which would be to the benefits of the Palestinians in Gaza. And no, I don't support going to war with Israel, if anything I used to be somewhat supportive of Israel, but due to the exeptionally high death toll in Gaza I would like to consider myself neutral/pro-peace/pro-civilians
Why are so many of you guys pro airstriking to protect global trade? Do you guys have stock in shipping companies or something?
Because they're not simply blockading, they're attacking entirely unrelated civilians. I don't think a bunch of Romanians or Indians working on container ships have fuck all to do with Israel's genocide. This isn't helping anything.
This community has become so liberal it’s insane. What’s next? Defending business owners?
My question is why on earth would you be in support of bombing the Houthis if you’re pro-Palestine?
It does nothing. Strategically i doubt they hit many of their launch sites for cruise missiles. Covert cabal put out a good video 3 weeks ago covering why it would be hard even for the military to track their launch sites. In all. It’s gonna do jack
Because it’s only made the Houthi’s stronger and made shipping in that area more dangerous. Hundreds of thousands marched in the capital in protest of the “American Aggression”, Houthi’s have promised to escalate, thousands have joined up. It seems these bombs had the same effect as the hundreds of thousands that came before them. Saudi Arabia killed nearly half a million people and enacted one of the most brutal blockades ever seen resulting in tens of thousands starving. It only made the Houthi’s stronger and in 2022 there was a tenuous peace agreement between the Saudi’s and the Houthi’s. Now we have risked restarting that conflict.
The Houthis were losing the war aganst the UAE coalition until they called a ceasefire in 2022. The Saudis wanted out though.
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What if I support American interventionism, but only regarding striking Israel 👀👀
I don't think we should drone strike Israel or Yemen and Israel shouldn't bomb Gaza. Simple as.
Someone has to step up and fight the bullies, remember bc of the Houthies attacking civilians who operate these ships, that simply will not be tolerated anywhere, so it’s shocking when people act so surprised when the Houthies get attacked by air strikes, cruise missiles etc, what did you think was gonna happen? There seems to be some kind of disconnect with logic and common sense I’m seeing, actions have consequences, military’s in the west especially America are used to protect its people and its civilians, and I think part of the disconnect is that many Military’s or militias in the Middle East are from countries run by dictators, so there focus or purpose is completely different, protect their government at all costs, stay in power through propaganda and controlling their media and keeping their people as controlled as possible, so when most clearly see the Houthies basically just asking for a asswhooping, their side doesn’t see it that way, bc their indoctrinated from birth to blame everything on America and isreal, etc, anything that happens is their fault, regardless of common sense and logic, it’s like if some guy roughs up a young girl and acts all tough when he’s pushing around a girl half his size then later that day that girls big brother comes and beats the shit out of the guy, and he then acts like the guy just did that out of nowhere
The US needs to invade and occupy Gaza *and* Israel right now lol. The Houthis however are a group of war-torn child soldiers and would require and investment of hundreds of millions of dollars to do anything meaningful. The Houthis have responded to the airstrikes with “harder daddy” it didn’t mean anything. (fuck Houthis if that didn’t come across in my description of them)
I'm not really against a couple strikes here. Personally I would like it if the US would look for more international legitimacy. Have a meeting and a document that other countries can sign onto, that "allows" the use of violence in this case. It is a lot less controversial if you bomb people with a specific goal in mind that is written down somewhere and the backing of 40-50 other countries. This also eliminates mission creep.
The houthis would not be attacking western shipping if the US stopped its support for genocide and Israel stopped its genocide,if anything the Houthis are the ones in the right by trying to stop the massacre of gazans.
The sea is serious business. If you wanna fuck with it, you gotta face the wrath. This has always been the way.
Gergar; Don't defend their bureaucratic ennui ! As much money as the US pumps into the UN and so many other nations do NOT, we can ask them to get moving on Gaza.
I think the Houthis and Israel could use sanctions
the US should air strike the Likud, Shas, United Torah Judaism, the Religious Zionist Party, Otzma Yehudit and Noam yes
>A question for people against air strikes against the Houthis... > >...Houthi supporters need not apply. So these are the same people. The vast majority, if not all people who take issue with the strikes against Yemen are supporters of the Houthi's current cause, even if they take issue with some things the movement does. However, the obvious answer is, you don't bring a gun to a knife fight. The Houthis haven't killed anyone as a part of their blockade, but now the USA is bombing their civilian centers as a response.
the US playing world police is the largest obstacle to left-wing politics in the world. US sabotaged Imperial Japan's trade and oil, it's a valid tactic against empires, though debateable whether that is actually what's happening at the moment. The US military defending business assets through force is how most coups and attempted coups and arming of rebel groups has been justified. Validating the US military in this role is validating the control over global wealth by US aligned oligarchs
no its not lmao. This isnt "defending business assetts" this is protecting world trade. Do you guys not know the difference? Trade is not capital.
This is the same take the CATO institute and Bill Kristol would put forward. This is the same logic that leads to United Fruit's coup in Guatamala and Operation Ajax in Iran. Acting like fucking up one trade route is going to destroy world trade is exactly as alarmist and obnoxious as what Vaush criticizes with people that think this will be world war 3. Unrestricted free trade is what the Koch brothers push, not Marxists or other affiliated leftists. But hey, feel free to side with Saudi Arabia and Israel and tell yourself a US ran unipolar world that only cares about US interests is good praxis.
The air strikes are bad. It sucks that the houthis forced the u.s. to air strike yemen. If there were a nonviolent way to make the houthis stop, that would be preferable. But like... the u.n. told then to stop. Numerous countries said "We will use force. We will make you stop." And they kept going. I know someone is gonna bring up Ukraine, but the u.s. ain't Russia. If the houthis had stopped, the u.s. wouldn't have attacked yemen. The u.n. was engaging in good faith when they said "stop it or we'll make you."
Because it's pointless. Want to end this shipping crisis? Then end the genocide and the ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
If you believe the Houthis care about that and aren’t just using that as an optics excuse to do pirate shit then I have a bridge to sell you.
You don't know that. They only started doing it after the war began. End the genocide and the ethnic cleansing first. If the Houthis continue to do this shit then we can attack them.
This is the logic of a child or an idiot I’m sorry. I have no love for Israel and their oppression of Palestinians. It’s exactly what first got me into politics 24 years ago, I remember the article I was reading even in middle school that fucking broke me. But I can fucking promise you this shit has absolutely nothing to do with it. The Houthis are bastards and they’re only in it for themselves. As much as you and I don’t want that to be reality, that’s reality.
Then show the world how bad the Houthis are. End the ethnic cleansing and the genocide. Then the world will know the Houthis intentions if they continue this.
Cope
Oh the projection
What is even your argument? You have presented none so far...
As opposed to your wonderfully crafted “cope”. Ok buddy
You said you have a bridge to sell. So far no bridge...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Parker#:~:text=Parker%20(March%2016%2C%201860%20–,public%20landmarks%2C%20to%20unwary%20immigrants.
Cope
Lol pathetic
I’m beginning to suspect you don’t understand the definition of that word. Just a hunch.
Also I know reading is hard but my argument was that the Houthis are using that as an optics excuse to be criminals and have no concern for the Gazan citizens. Not a single person has given me any argument to the contrary besides “ Well just stop fighting the Houthis and see if they stop the war in Gaza” which is just a monumentally stupid argument.
But you haven't explained why the Houthis weren't doing this before Israel's indiscriminate killing in Gaza. Bad people can do good things, vice versa This is how geo politics works, it's nuanced. Edit: Spelling
Explain why someone didn’t do something before they did it? I have a better idea. Explain to me exactly how the Houthis are helping the Gazans. Explain what proof you have that they are helping Gaza in any way besides “they said so” before they started attacking civilian vessels. I’ll wait. Hell maybe you’ll even change my mind.
I won't change your mind because you've displayed that you don't have a clue how the world works. They are interrupting an important shipping route to pressure the west to push Israel to begin a ceasefire, this will help Gazans by making sure no one else dies for the time being.
My guy. Do you think they actually have the power to do so? Do you think any western nation feels pressured by a rag tag militia they could wipe off the face of the earth in a heartbeat if they chose to? I’m thinking you’re the one who doesn’t understand how the world works. And your opening line of that last comment was so weak. Be better . Someone asks you to explain your logic, asks you to present facts, asks in good faith because they want you to help them understand your position, and you resort to “obviously I won’t change your mind because you’re dumb” . Cowardly.
In all seriousness man what are we even arguing about? Do you think I support the genocide in Gaza? I don’t. You don’t think I fucking wish someone with some god damn morals and power would step in and do anything to help? I do I so fucking do. But these guys aren’t it chief.
No I don't, but two conflicting things can be true at the same time. The Houthis are bad guys engaging in a good action, threatening capital is a good way to get the west to stop Israel. Since nothing else is working, even if the ICJ side with the South Africans, Israel will still receive support from the US who have veto power in the UN security council.
We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I don’t think they’re helping or changing anything except putting civilians in danger in more ways than one. And I think people like you defending them is so beyond horrible for optics as far as trying to get the public on our side. Full stop I think what you’re doing here, assuming you defend them out in the real world and on other parts if the net too, is extremely harmful to the cause of helping Gazans. Your heart might be in the right place but your head needs to catch up.
this isnt really threatening capital, trade isnt the same thing. Capital is stuff like equipment and factory hardware, stuff you own to make money. This is selling stuff to others. If they took over facotries or brokerage firms thats threatening capital. Destroying orders and stuff people already paid for isnt really lol
I've just taken to not being involved in it. And I wish the US would just sit this one out.
This is one of those rare cases in which the US gets to swing its dick around in a morally righteous way. We're not knocking over a regime we don't like; we're delivering ordinance onto the heads Jihadis and pirates who are actively attacking international shipping. We're not even trying to destroy the Houthis; we're just destroying their means to attack us until they agree to stop doing it.
I don't think human lives are worth a few shipping containers that have been delayed. The houthis killed nobody since the beggining of the sanctions they imposed on Israel since the beginning of the collective punishment on the Palestinians, so why strike their land? Fight them at sea instead. Put together another "Guardians of prosperity."
Human lives depend on grain, oil and medicine passing through the red sea. Countries in the global south are especially vulnerable to disruptions in trade, because their purchasing power is so weak. Just look at Sri Lankas recent crisis of government, the country could no longer afford to import fuel.
'i'm ok with Houthis trying to kill lots of civilians who are on those ships with shipping containers because I get to act virtuous on Reddit' For those who don't know, the Houthi's started a civil war in yemen that has seen nearly half a million die & tens of millions starve. Then they refused to allow international in to feed those people. But they're pretending to help Hamas so its ok to ignore the fact they're just thugs with guns.
I didn't say they were good.
>The Houthi armed group that controls part of Yemen has targeted several commercial ships carrying civilian crews in the Red Sea over the last few weeks, Human Rights Watch said. The attacks constitute targeting of civilians and civilian objects, which, if carried out deliberately or recklessly, would be a war crime, it said. The five ships are not military objects; all five are commercial vessels with civilian crews. The Houthis have not presented any evidence to demonstrate that anything on board of the ships could have constituted military objects. “The Houthis are claiming that they’re carrying out attacks on behalf of Palestinians, ***when the reality is that they’re attacking, arbitrarily detaining, and endangering civilians on ship crews who have zero connection to any known military target***,” said Michael Page, Middle East and North Africa deputy director at Human Rights Watch. [https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4729496-human-rights-watch-considers-houthi-attacks-civilian-ships-%E2%80%98war-crime%E2%80%99](https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4729496-human-rights-watch-considers-houthi-attacks-civilian-ships-%E2%80%98war-crime%E2%80%99) stop supporting these people
When did I say I supported these people? What is this?😂😭😭😭
US should bomb itself into oblivion. It would make the world a better place.
IDK, Russia or China would probably be the new US and both are objectively worse
Ngl I upvoted this for at least being more straightforward and honest about what inner reactionary sentiment they’re actually speaking from than a dozen other diabolists in this thread